Since anakin is dead it makes since that he would be at peace with himself while when he was alive Anakin and Vader were at war for control of the body. Now that anakin is dead the 2 sides of the coins are hole and anakin now has control to switch between both sides at will. He is truly now the master of the force and the most powerful being that we’ve ever seen
@Lots17 Because that suit heavily restricts his movements and he only used it because the restraints kept him stronger in the dark side (Yes it also kept him alive but he could have gotten a better constructed suit at any time according to palpatine in the comics) Also, because he's no longer Vader. He only used the dark side to help Ashoka get over her grief of not stopping him when they fought in Rebels
To simplify all this, its already been explained that in the World Between Worlds, entities within the force exist in all times. So when Anakin manifests there, it's every version of Anakin. That's how he's able to appear as so many different versions of himself, because he's all of them at the same time. He doesn't appear all blue and glowy because he's not in the physical world. Ahsoka's within the force.
I don’t really consider these things retcons. We’ve never seen a force ghost in the world between worlds. We’ve also never been told that force ghosts can’t change their appearance. These are things that we just don’t know (in canon).
Technically the force ghost can change their appearances as George Lucas put Hayden Christensen actor as a force ghost. It was the last time he was Anakin before converting over but he changed his appearance from the older actor playing him etc.
I mean, none of the soldiers or other people in the world between world flashback sequences had blue hues as well... I'm not sure why people are debating whether there is any meaning behind Anakin not having a blue hue in there. In the world between worlds, they are basically *IN* the force itself.
I am getting tired of hearing that word "retcon" as tired as I am hearing the word "narcissist". they used to have meaning and now have been thrown on the scrap pile of words that mean almost nothing anymore.
I knew it was Anakin because after Ahsoka said “I wont fight you” and he said “I’ve heard that before” which is a reference to when Luke said “I won’t fight you father” which only Anakin and the Emperor would know that he said, not Ahsoka.
I don't think it's actually "Vader" when we see him. I don't think it makes any sense for anakin to switch back and forth between being evil Anakin is just choosing to change his form and take the *role* of Vader so that Ahsoka can get closure. We already know that force ghosts can change their form since obviously Anakin died as like a 50 year old man Calling this a retcon is a bit of a stretch when George Lucas clearly intended force ghosts to be able to do this with the special edition Hayden ghost
This^^^ darksiders can’t become force ghost but anakin can change his forms and he’s also the chosen one so I don’t see why he can’t make an illusion of himself as Vader in the suit
It makes a lot of sense if he’s the balance between light and dark. The mortis arc explains this. Maybe that is why he appears the way he wants to and can bend these versions. He’s the chosen one
Something I've seen a lot of people point out is that Anakin was invited to be the successor of The Father but declined at the time. I feel like, because he was able to retain his identity after death, it could be possible that he was able to take on that role now. This would explain why he appeared as a normal Force spirit right after his death, but now he doesn't because he is something more. If that's the case, it isn't so much a retcon as an expansion of the lore; that is, it wouldn't change what Anakin was when we last saw him on the forest moon of Endor, but would instead let us no that he has become something more since then.
this has to be the real Anakin because he references Luke saying that he would not fight him... Ashoka wouldn't know that, so it is his real force ghost
Thanks. And to make things more clear for everyone: Anakin is Vader. Vader isn't a second personality of him. The whole point of Vader is that he suffers. He regrets everything. And the whole suffering pushes him more and more into the darkness.
Since we don´t know from Dave Filoni how this Sequence with Anakin and Ahsoka is meant (Vision in near Death, World between World or anything else) how can you say there is a RETCON ? I would wait what Filoni said before i speculate
this is star wars youtubers in a nutshell. they overspeculate all the time, looking for things that isn't even there. now, it needs to be said that i think they are great for the community, however they are also the people that makes a lot of confusions as well. so always take what they say with a grain of salt.
that shot on Mandalore when hes holding her saber and then it cuts back to him looking down HAD to be a nod to episode 3 final battle when hes doing that to Obi Wan
I personally think that Anakin is now the Father and he is the balance of light and dark. I don’t think he is switching between Anakin and Vader, rather the flashes of Vader are just how Ahsoka is seeing him. Just like the scene on Ryloth.
I think Anakin has moved past being just a force ghost and is closer to taking the role of the Father of Mortis. He has both sides, but they are at equilibrium.
@@jackrutledgegoembel5896He has control over his hatred but it is still there. Living things (which the force is an extension of) experience hate by nature. Balance or equilibrium isn't eradicating hate but controlling it or not letting it control you. The problem with hate is that if you let it control you it can make you act in ways that are contrary to the will of the force which doesn't necessarily care about your specific problems.
Anakin wasn't the same man after killing Palpatine to save his son mate you could say he became a jedi again and was no a longer this is why the movie says return of the jedi is because Vader was no more after he protected his son by killing Palpatine, also Luke saw the internal struggle within Vader as Vader meeting Luke helped bring him back to the light side and in doing so fulfilling the prophecy@@jackrutledgegoembel5896
His force ghost in Return of a Jedi is a retcon itself, the original actor playing the force ghost Anakin was an older man. They went back and edited the guy into the Return of the Jedi who played Anakin in the prequels apparently so he looks like Anakin from the prequels, despite Anakin was 'old' at the time of his death as Darth Vader anyway.
What if... He is not a force ghost. Eventually he become "The Father of Mortis", after his death as Anakin. As we had seen in The clone wars, he controlled both the son and the daughter. And in this scene, he is switching between light and dark at his will.. Because he is now in the middle. And finally fulfilled his destiny as The chosen one
He is the Chosen One, much more powerful than we could possibly imagine. Beyond force ghost, beyond the Father of Mortis, he is just himself in all forms. The Balance of the Force
Swing and a miss, he's in world between worlds where he's at full power of the chosen one, and not in the living world where he would just be an echo of this true power.
I choose to believe that what happened in TWBW was real. After all, Jacen heard the lightsabers through the waves. And it seems Hera did too. He even asks her “who were you fighting?” So unless Jacen was strong enough to read Ahsokas mind/internal struggle, it was real.
The sequences and Anakin with Asoka makes perfect sense... Not sure why it's so troubling and confusing to younger viewers. If it bothers anyone, well, go back to the sequels and learn to love Rey, where it's all just surface basics impossible to place into the actual universe... it's for the younger fans who just don't get it. Anakin is Anakin AND Vader... he is both and all of both; and for Asoka to evolve to where she needs-to, following the Living Force, not the dogmas of the Jedi or Sith.
@@dragerdet so you’re inferring that Jason, who’s had little if any training can listen into the mind of Ashoka. I don’t quite think that would explain it. Whereas if Anakin pulled her into the world between worlds, and Jason was close enough to the portal, he could still hear the sabers. Just food for thought.
That is the real Anakin because he makes a reference to Luke when Ahsoka says she will not fight him when he challenges her the same way luke did when Anakin challenged him as vader if this was just a figment of her imagination then this version of anakin would not be making referances to his fight with luke because Ahsoka doesn't know about his fights with Luke and what they said to eachother
This is unrelatable to your statement, but i just have to say something because its driving me nuts lmao. The fact that you wrote all this in one sentence just makes it really weird to read. I am not saying its a problem, but maybe something to keep in mind next time haha 😂 hope you have a good day friend 😁
It would make sense for a Force Ghost to be able to manifest in different forms. In the World Between Worlds, it makes even more sense, as it's a place from which all time can be accessed. Also, you can exist without a shadow but a shadow cannot exist without you.
That concept art is really cool but I can see why they didn't go with that appearance. It conveys the idea that Anakin is conflicted about his place in the force but what we got implies he is at peace with both sides of himself and can switch between them as needed. He is now balanced and in control in a way he never was in life.
What if when Ashoka and Baylan duel again he gets the upper hand… Anakin appears ,uses the little energy he has left to help his Stu.. his friend . Gives her time and motivation to get the job done. Yea I know not going to happen
I still think it was a test, a trial. Similar to how every Jedi has had this happen to them. Similar to how Luke fought his father in that cave on Digaba, when he took his fathers head off to reveal his own fake if he chose the wrong path in Empire. Facing their guilt and fears. Yoda faced him self with the WIlls and Luke himself, and even Rey who I don’t believe existed did the weird mirror room of herself. Don’t think it was really him. Just her manifesting. To fight death herself
At the end of the day, I think Filoni will do whatever Disney demands to keep those millions rolling into his pocketbook. It is possible that the new Galaxy could be just another bait and switch operation, getting the fandom to think things will be better there, when all along the ideas that the vast fanbase find distasteful will appear there as well, I hope not but we will see.
I think that it's more like a split force ghost; like for Revan. When Revan died, his soul split in two; one light and one dark. So it's possible that we see the light side force ghost in Episode VI and Kylo speaks to a dark side anakin. For the world between worlds, the 2 forms coexists.
I loved Hayden Christianson, but I'd say use him sparingly. I don't want him showing up in the mandalorian giving grogu a peptalk. I don't want anakin to just turn into fanservice. I'd be fine with more clonewars stuff, but he doesn't need to be forced into the rest of the series.
You're looking for a nothing burger... Anakin is whole both Anakin and Vader are one. Like anakin told her when she started harping on the past and he said "is that what all this is about?" He went into his dark form to teach her that she needs to forgive herself for what she couldn't control. And to choose to life for the future rather than die because of the past.
The Vader in the suit is more likely an illusion that anakin can create. Darksiders cannot become curve ghost at most they can attach their spirits to objects. Anakin seems like much more than a normal force ghost probably because he’s the chosen one and potential taken the place of the father or something like a force priests
George Lucas was involved with the filming of Ahsoka as he was with Mandalorian so I think he approves of this change. Let's face it. Anakin isn't an ordinary being or even an ordinary Jedi. He's the literal offspring of the Force so by extension in the afterlife in the words of Obi-Wan in Ep. IV: A New Hope 'become more powerful than you can possibly imagine'. Might even be on the same power levels of Q in Star Trek.
Honestly it seems pretty well within character for Anakin to appear to his old Padawan when she needed 1 last lesson. His ascension to the force gave him full control over light and dark. To ascend as he did he would have had to achieve perfect balance in both light and dark.
Exactly what I’m thinking. That’s why he says “there’s hope for you yet” and not “lesson complete”. There’s hope that she will learn the lesson. Meaning she hasn’t learned it yet.
This was the Force Ghost of Anakin Skywalker, that Luke Skywalker saw at the end of Star Wars Episode VI Return of the Jedi along with Obi-Wan Kenobi & Yoda, during the celebration on Endor, that means, that this was not the World Between Worlds, but it was actually the Star Wars afterlife, also Anakin Skywalker told Ahsoka, during episode 4, "I didn't expect to see you so soon."
Nice, but I think you all are missing some important clues given. Baylan sees Ahsoka dropping and his conversation with Sabine he talks to her like given Ahsoka as dead. Probably he sees she hitting the rocks bellow. Talking about the place when this all happened probably is a powerful force nexus. And if happened in other place she probably not was presented with the choice to live or die. What I think that happened, was she body are in some place in the water but her spirit cross to world between worlds. And what go next is a near death experience. One of the first thing Anakin tolde to her was, he was not expecting her there so soon. The second thing he said to her is that she lost, but has a chance to live. And that is because she remember what happened. So he pass thru her blocking her avance in the afterlife path, and force her back to the beginning of the path that was pretty close if you see. And when they get there he make her see a part of her life. I think that was 2 things happening. First Anakin is making she choose live or die, but he dont want that she die, so stop fighting is always the wrong answer to him. The second thing is the training, like all Jedi knight they have to face the dark side and come back of the experience. In the end her eyes has revealing her dark side, but she do not let it take control over her beside wishes to strike down what he became, she make peace, stopping the fight and choosing to live. What she realizes is that she can be everything Anakin was and more, but this is the path she must follow and what she becomes will be forged by her own decisions. The boy and Hera heard the lightsabers, I believe it was more because the place was a point of convergence in the force. But many must be wondering why she listened? Just remember the first lesson. The force is present in all living beings. And some have the talence to chanel and use this power. Well that is what I thing is going on \o/
Remember, Ahsoka is the embodiment of the sister since she died on Mortis. Anakin is, partially, the embodiment of the brother. Since they are in the world between worlds, that is what connects them in a world with no time!
Fair point. Anakin did always struggle with balance. Maybe death allows him to finally embody the wish of the father. To ultimately become the balance in the force, like his prophesy!
If this was a Force ghost, I dont really see this as a retcon. If he can show himselves as either version, then why would his only showing himself as a light Anakin in RotJ contradict the duality he shows later? There would be no reason to show his other side to Luke in that instance particularly as his role at that time was reassurance. Its not as if he would just involuntarily flicker back and forth all the time (as I doubt it was involuntary with Ahsoka). Besides, I am not convinced force ghost Anakin truly is dual. He just appeared that way to teach Ahsoka a much needed lesson.
Also the question of if it's in Ahoskas head or not we can question from his comment about the Siege of Mandalore segment. Since that piece he wasn't there for, but the powers of the force/ world between worlds is they can be influenced by all aspects so pulling from Ahsoka and allowing the manifestation of Anakin present it allows of that interaction to take place. Seeing as in comics Vader supposbly goes there after it happens so its not like he is ignorant of the event just does recognize it intially.
They never said Force ghosts couldn’t change the forms they appear in so it can’t be a retcon if there wasn’t an established guideline or rule before hand lol. Also everything you mentioned might be “retcons” really are not lol. Like I said, you can’t contradict something that wasn’t previously established as fact already
Seeing Hayden getting to play good boi Anakin is fantastic. I love that. Even though I REALLY love Matt Lanter's Anakin. And he really fleshes out the character, this version of Hayden CLEANLY blends both his own and Lanter's Anakin into one. Very nice
I love Star Wars and lightsaber fights in particular. But I do have to say just this one thing about people who engage in lightsaber battle. STOP turning your back to your opponent! It's the quickest way of getting stabbed in the back of the head or worse your butt!! Please stop, please make it stop!
I like to think the show Visions and this episode 5 are basically the same things: they are force visions, not quite visits from force ghosts. Whether brought on by Anakin or experienced solely by Ahsoka, I think the visions show things as the viewer perceives them in the moment, always changing based on their understanding of that which they view. Anakin changes based on Ahsokas understanding. Just like the visions show is, in my head, Jedi visions being experienced by a Jedi in order to learn from the past. Just my head canon. Lol
I think Lucasfilm realised all the WASTED potential of not touching Luke Skywalker for 30 years that they will not repeat the same mistake with Anakin. While he can still portray Anakin, please do more. The more Anakin the better for me!!! Not a Vader fan. But Anakin is my favorite character in Star Wars ever.
6:30 Ahsoka wouldn’t need to know. Jedi can have force visions for example to see the future or some other (hidden) knowledge. I am pretty sure that force ghosts could enter someones mind 😅
He's took over the mortis gods position as the last mortis god. Seeing as he's lived 2 lives, one light, one dark. He now has time as a force ghost to fulfil the prophecy of the one who will bring balance to the force.
I think it’s a stretch to say the Vader+Anakin voice is a direct reference to the other times it’s happened in shows. I think it’s just an audio artistic detail.
This isn't a retcon. Anakin is fulfilling his destiny of becoming a Mortis God from the Clone Wars series. Ahsoka was also touched by the Son and is tainted by the darkside. Him being a Force Ghost may be the natural progression of fulfill that destiny. Sort like he has to level up being a force ghost first. It was said he was to replace the father and have the ability to control both the light and the dark. He can utilize whatever aspect of himself best suits the balance of the force, which is his responsibility now.
Here is the explanation, the Worlds Between Worlds is a realm or dimension where space, time, life, and death operate on a different level than simply the physical world. This had already been established both in the Clone Wars, Rebels, and the Vader comics. We already know there is the Cosmic Force, and the Living Force. Entities such as The Wills, and even the Gods of Mortis, exist in their relative or respective domains of the Cosmic Force. The World Between Worlds are but the networks of what is, what has been, and what could be. Meaning any entity could exist in any form they choose because time is not as linear. Already Ahsoka Tano was already a hiccup in time when Ezra yanked her out in Rebels. So it would not be that far fetched, that she is as much tied as Anakin manifesting in it as well. They both made contact in their lifetimes. Ahsoka in Rebels, Anakin in the Vader comics.
when something of star wars comes out, i break it down piece by piece by piece, and since i notice the smallest details most miss, and have a perfect "photographic" memory, remember every detail of stuff seen star wars being main focus
Anakin in Ep. 5 is a Force manifestation. He can physically manifest in the World Between Worlds (he makes physical contact with Ahsoka and she with him). He is not a "ghost" in that sense. No blue hue. Here's something to consider: Anakin may be powerful enough to fully manifest in the real world (ok, in the "Star Wars" real world). Yoda did physical damage to the real world. It may be possible for Anakin to do so as well. Wouldn't that be interesting?
Imagine that conversation. Luke: "So anyway, I was all like I will not fight you, Father. And then his boss started shooting lightning out of his fingertips at me."
From my point of view what we saw in the last episode was not Anakin's force ghost, but a manifestation of Anakin by the force itself, similar to how Vader appeared to Luke in the cave on Dagobah, but not Vader himself. As with the line about "not wanting to fight" having been heard by Anakin before, well, that's because it is simply part of star wars history now, and is therefor cemented in the force itself, (the force basically knowing what happened back then, and using that little bit of knowledge in this particular moment). Afterall, to become a force ghost, you have to be free of everything having to do with the dark side. Retconning that part would only muddy the lore waters even further, and i think Dave wouldn't go that far, but we'll see.
I think it's somewhere between a force ghost and hallucination/dream-like state due to her being unconscious and also living within the Force. As such, dialogue shouldn't all be taken literally, as in "I've heard that before." When we dream not all dialogue is snippets of what we've heard before, it's just weird random stuff, though often, but not always, based on experience. It's a TV show, and that was fan service.
if Anakin would have been a force ghost or manifestation, he wouldnt made footsteps on the path in the world between worlds. but the floor immediately reacts to all of his steps, like we can see on Ahsokas steps. in contrast of this is Lukes manifestation on Crait. his appearance clearly doesnt imprint footprints on the ground, in contrast to Kylos. so this is a hint, that force projections doesnt interact with their environment. i know, sounds a little bit superficial, but could be an explanation
the simplest answer is usually the correct one guys, Ahsoka is learning where she fits in the Legacy of her masters eg, is she good or evil (she has sith eyes for a second and dismisses them) or maybe somewhere in between, with the world between worlds you take in your personal baggage and what the force wants you to see and overcome.
I'm just happy to see more Hayden/Anakin in live action. Episode 5 was possibly the best piece of star wars media ever, yes it's only possible because of the amazing prequels and even the Obi-Wan show but 3 of my top 5-10 all time favourite SW characters were on screen together for the first time ever in live action and it Dave done an amazing job.
She was literally drowning. I feel it's her memories flashing before her eyes, just before death. And The Force influencing the situation. Just on the verge of crossing over, she "wakes up" from the visions, yet still underwater...
I feel like it’s so simple. Even more simple than someone else points out. Simply put… Anakin did it. He was trying to get Ahsoka to fight for life. She’s very jaded at this point and he is trying to snap her out of it. His power allowed him to simply put on a performance for her.
Let us take a moment a praise our lord and savior Dave Filoni for my over look his retcons for the glory and preservation of the continued story of Star Wars
It’s like the force afterlife combined with the Dagobah cave. Ahsoka died and went to the afterlife which maybe is or part of the world between worlds. It also shares similarities to Gandalf in LOTR or even when Harry Potter dies and meets Dumbledor.
This also could be the reason he doesn’t have the blue hue. Bc he is the balance between light and dark so when he’s in the war between worlds he shows up that way? I remember the father saying whoever can bend the will has the power
Could it not be both? A vision in Ahsoka's mind, but influenced by Anakin? Anakin could still be the traditional blue-glowy force ghost, but he's not physically manifesting here, just nudging with the Force and letting Ahsoka's mind do the rest.
I took the reason he is and looks more solid is that the world between worlds is like theee force and ahoka could also be there in spirit because She's on Death's door
trailers never show the finish show or movie those missing words from anakin may never be sad in the series remember the trailer from rouge one with jyn and the tie fighter also i doubt is a retcon since they are inside the world between worlds wich in my mind look way better in live action then they did in rebels
I'd like Anakin to make more guest appearances, either just being imagined by Ahsoka or as a force ghost, i don't mind, as long as there is interaction between them.
I don't think the Jedi understood what bring balance to the force truly ment. The chosen one had to experience the light and dark side of the force to bring balance and he was the trigger to bring balance.
It doesn't retcon anything about Force ghosts. Force ghosts so far in canon manifest physically either however the living being communicating with them last knew them (Obi Wan and Yoda in the OT and then Yoda in TLJ, and Qui Gon's non-corporeal manifestation and now with Anakin communing with Ahsoka) or as they last existed as a wielder of the Light side of the Force (like Anakin in ROTJ donning traditional Jedi garb). Qui Gon even continues to learn to manifest a physical image while existing in the Living Force to be able to visually manifest to Obi Wan during his exile on Tatooine and that is telling to what Ahsoka experiences. We're constantly finding out how Force ghosts are able to manifest and interact with the physical world (like with Yoda in TLJ) but in the WBW, even those rules may be skewed. Anakin has been redeemed and only the Light side of him exists in the Living Force, but he's teaching Ahsoka and using her own fears (her feeling at fault for Anakin's turn and her own potential to turn to the Dark side) to help her see how she's able to move forward. He's basically creating a Force Nexus like we see in ESB and TLJ and using it to educate Ahsoka. His Force ghost doesn't have echos of Vader within it (he never would've been allowed to transition into existing into the Living Force had he retained any of it) but he can still project images of it without existing within it.
Since anakin is dead it makes since that he would be at peace with himself while when he was alive Anakin and Vader were at war for control of the body. Now that anakin is dead the 2 sides of the coins are hole and anakin now has control to switch between both sides at will. He is truly now the master of the force and the most powerful being that we’ve ever seen
He probably can even switch to the Vader in the suit. I wonder why he didn't choose that and why he decided to "flash" suit Vader.
@Lots17 Because that suit heavily restricts his movements and he only used it because the restraints kept him stronger in the dark side (Yes it also kept him alive but he could have gotten a better constructed suit at any time according to palpatine in the comics)
Also, because he's no longer Vader. He only used the dark side to help Ashoka get over her grief of not stopping him when they fought in Rebels
@@JordanFanatic makes sense
*Sense
He is the force god, the father. balance of the force
To simplify all this, its already been explained that in the World Between Worlds, entities within the force exist in all times. So when Anakin manifests there, it's every version of Anakin. That's how he's able to appear as so many different versions of himself, because he's all of them at the same time. He doesn't appear all blue and glowy because he's not in the physical world. Ahsoka's within the force.
Anakin is not a she.
@@tejastrojanPretty sure he means because Ahsoka (she) is within the force
It's crazy that people just don't get this.
exactly mass convolution
@@metal_mo alot of star wars fans never understood star wars
I don’t really consider these things retcons. We’ve never seen a force ghost in the world between worlds. We’ve also never been told that force ghosts can’t change their appearance. These are things that we just don’t know (in canon).
Technically the force ghost can change their appearances as George Lucas put Hayden Christensen actor as a force ghost. It was the last time he was Anakin before converting over but he changed his appearance from the older actor playing him etc.
I mean, none of the soldiers or other people in the world between world flashback sequences had blue hues as well... I'm not sure why people are debating whether there is any meaning behind Anakin not having a blue hue in there. In the world between worlds, they are basically *IN* the force itself.
I am getting tired of hearing that word "retcon" as tired as I am hearing the word "narcissist". they used to have meaning and now have been thrown on the scrap pile of words that mean almost nothing anymore.
I knew it was Anakin because after Ahsoka said “I wont fight you” and he said “I’ve heard that before” which is a reference to when Luke said “I won’t fight you father” which only Anakin and the Emperor would know that he said, not Ahsoka.
I don't think it's actually "Vader" when we see him. I don't think it makes any sense for anakin to switch back and forth between being evil
Anakin is just choosing to change his form and take the *role* of Vader so that Ahsoka can get closure.
We already know that force ghosts can change their form since obviously Anakin died as like a 50 year old man
Calling this a retcon is a bit of a stretch when George Lucas clearly intended force ghosts to be able to do this with the special edition Hayden ghost
This is the correct interpretation. Thank you for having sense.
This.
This^^^ darksiders can’t become force ghost but anakin can change his forms and he’s also the chosen one so I don’t see why he can’t make an illusion of himself as Vader in the suit
Anakin is now The Father, the balance in the Force. It's that simple.
It makes a lot of sense if he’s the balance between light and dark. The mortis arc explains this. Maybe that is why he appears the way he wants to and can bend these versions. He’s the chosen one
Something I've seen a lot of people point out is that Anakin was invited to be the successor of The Father but declined at the time. I feel like, because he was able to retain his identity after death, it could be possible that he was able to take on that role now. This would explain why he appeared as a normal Force spirit right after his death, but now he doesn't because he is something more. If that's the case, it isn't so much a retcon as an expansion of the lore; that is, it wouldn't change what Anakin was when we last saw him on the forest moon of Endor, but would instead let us no that he has become something more since then.
this has to be the real Anakin because he references Luke saying that he would not fight him... Ashoka wouldn't know that, so it is his real force ghost
Thanks. And to make things more clear for everyone: Anakin is Vader. Vader isn't a second personality of him. The whole point of Vader is that he suffers. He regrets everything. And the whole suffering pushes him more and more into the darkness.
@@dopaminvitamin you are correct. its more like a metaphor. He is very much the same person, but with a different persona.
its not about luke ffs its about ahsoka saying she won't fight him in rebels
@@hubiii4528 Incorrect
@@hubiii4528 Yes incorrect
Since we don´t know from Dave Filoni how this Sequence with Anakin and Ahsoka is meant (Vision in near Death, World between World or anything else) how can you say there is a RETCON ?
I would wait what Filoni said before i speculate
this is star wars youtubers in a nutshell. they overspeculate all the time, looking for things that isn't even there.
now, it needs to be said that i think they are great for the community, however they are also the people that makes a lot of confusions as well. so always take what they say with a grain of salt.
that shot on Mandalore when hes holding her saber and then it cuts back to him looking down HAD to be a nod to episode 3 final battle when hes doing that to Obi Wan
I personally think that Anakin is now the Father and he is the balance of light and dark. I don’t think he is switching between Anakin and Vader, rather the flashes of Vader are just how Ahsoka is seeing him. Just like the scene on Ryloth.
I think Anakin has moved past being just a force ghost and is closer to taking the role of the Father of Mortis. He has both sides, but they are at equilibrium.
I don't think that's how the force works. In Anakin's case, light side Jedi and hate-filled genocidal maniac can't really exist in "equilibrium."
@@jackrutledgegoembel5896He has control over his hatred but it is still there. Living things (which the force is an extension of) experience hate by nature. Balance or equilibrium isn't eradicating hate but controlling it or not letting it control you. The problem with hate is that if you let it control you it can make you act in ways that are contrary to the will of the force which doesn't necessarily care about your specific problems.
Anakin wasn't the same man after killing Palpatine to save his son mate you could say he became a jedi again and was no a longer this is why the movie says return of the jedi is because Vader was no more after he protected his son by killing Palpatine, also Luke saw the internal struggle within Vader as Vader meeting Luke helped bring him back to the light side and in doing so fulfilling the prophecy@@jackrutledgegoembel5896
The man became a god . He is using his life and hers to bring peace to her .
His force ghost in Return of a Jedi is a retcon itself, the original actor playing the force ghost Anakin was an older man. They went back and edited the guy into the Return of the Jedi who played Anakin in the prequels apparently so he looks like Anakin from the prequels, despite Anakin was 'old' at the time of his death as Darth Vader anyway.
What if... He is not a force ghost.
Eventually he become "The Father of Mortis", after his death as Anakin.
As we had seen in The clone wars, he controlled both the son and the daughter.
And in this scene, he is switching between light and dark at his will.. Because he is now in the middle.
And finally fulfilled his destiny as The chosen one
Anakin is now The Father, the balance in the Force, and he can choose to portray the Light and Dark sides of himself, at will. It's that simple.
He is the Chosen One, much more powerful than we could possibly imagine. Beyond force ghost, beyond the Father of Mortis, he is just himself in all forms. The Balance of the Force
Swing and a miss, he's in world between worlds where he's at full power of the chosen one, and not in the living world where he would just be an echo of this true power.
That Anikan part looked like a dream. Like Ahsoka died and Death asked her if she wanted a 2nd chance at Life?
I choose to believe that what happened in TWBW was real. After all, Jacen heard the lightsabers through the waves. And it seems Hera did too. He even asks her “who were you fighting?”
So unless Jacen was strong enough to read Ahsokas mind/internal struggle, it was real.
George Lucas himself retconned the whole Annakin Force ghost thing.
The sequences and Anakin with Asoka makes perfect sense... Not sure why it's so troubling and confusing to younger viewers. If it bothers anyone, well, go back to the sequels and learn to love Rey, where it's all just surface basics impossible to place into the actual universe... it's for the younger fans who just don't get it.
Anakin is Anakin AND Vader... he is both and all of both; and for Asoka to evolve to where she needs-to, following the Living Force, not the dogmas of the Jedi or Sith.
Basically Anakin became like the father of Mortis. He can go between the light and the dark.
If this is all in Ashoka’s mind, how did Jason hear the sabers? Answer me that.
Ahsoka was using the force subconsciously during her fight in her mind and thats how Jason heard it
@@dragerdetstill doesnt explain how she wouldve known about lukes and vaders interaction on the death star
@@aleksii_ Luke told her.
@dragerdet that's a reach bro
@@dragerdet so you’re inferring that Jason, who’s had little if any training can listen into the mind of Ashoka. I don’t quite think that would explain it.
Whereas if Anakin pulled her into the world between worlds, and Jason was close enough to the portal, he could still hear the sabers. Just food for thought.
And after the last Episode we know now, IT WAS ANAKINS FORCE GHOST
Heras son also heard then battling in the world between worlds so it kind of solidifies that it was actually happening.
something i never noticed is that anakins force ghost in rotj is wearing traditional jedi robes instead of his typical black one.
That is the real Anakin because he makes a reference to Luke when Ahsoka says she will not fight him when he challenges her the same way luke did when Anakin challenged him as vader if this was just a figment of her imagination then this version of anakin would not be making referances to his fight with luke because Ahsoka doesn't know about his fights with Luke and what they said to eachother
This is unrelatable to your statement, but i just have to say something because its driving me nuts lmao. The fact that you wrote all this in one sentence just makes it really weird to read. I am not saying its a problem, but maybe something to keep in mind next time haha 😂 hope you have a good day friend 😁
@@pizzaaFAEN Im sorry when im texting or chatting with people online or text i tend to forget about grammer sometimes.
The switch from Anakin to Vader was some of the hardest stuff in Star Wars we have gotten in a bit.
Only a Sith deals in absolutes....
It would make sense for a Force Ghost to be able to manifest in different forms. In the World Between Worlds, it makes even more sense, as it's a place from which all time can be accessed.
Also, you can exist without a shadow but a shadow cannot exist without you.
its like swtor when you fight dark side Raven and light side Raven is helping you
They need to make him a Mortis god!
That concept art is really cool but I can see why they didn't go with that appearance. It conveys the idea that Anakin is conflicted about his place in the force but what we got implies he is at peace with both sides of himself and can switch between them as needed. He is now balanced and in control in a way he never was in life.
I think the ”conflicted” idea would ruin his redemption in rotj and has already been done before… like the dude is dead just let him have some peace
That and he looked WAY too much like darth malgus lol
Why can't you people just enjoy the episode and how dope it was
You’re overthinking it
How is them changing their appearance a retcon? Do you not remember force ghost anakin magically being younger?
What if when Ashoka and Baylan duel again he gets the upper hand… Anakin appears ,uses the little energy he has left to help his Stu.. his friend . Gives her time and motivation to get the job done. Yea I know not going to happen
I still think it was a test, a trial. Similar to how every Jedi has had this happen to them. Similar to how Luke fought his father in that cave on Digaba, when he took his fathers head off to reveal his own fake if he chose the wrong path in Empire. Facing their guilt and fears. Yoda faced him self with the WIlls and Luke himself, and even Rey who I don’t believe existed did the weird mirror room of herself. Don’t think it was really him. Just her manifesting. To fight death herself
Like Revan he mastered both the light and dark. Anakin has become "the Father", the balance.
At the end of the day, I think Filoni will do whatever Disney demands to keep those millions rolling into his pocketbook. It is possible that the new Galaxy could be just another bait and switch operation, getting the fandom to think things will be better there, when all along the ideas that the vast fanbase find distasteful will appear there as well, I hope not but we will see.
I think that it's more like a split force ghost; like for Revan. When Revan died, his soul split in two; one light and one dark. So it's possible that we see the light side force ghost in Episode VI and Kylo speaks to a dark side anakin. For the world between worlds, the 2 forms coexists.
Anakin is now a force deity... plain and simple.
I loved Hayden Christianson, but I'd say use him sparingly. I don't want him showing up in the mandalorian giving grogu a peptalk. I don't want anakin to just turn into fanservice. I'd be fine with more clonewars stuff, but he doesn't need to be forced into the rest of the series.
You're looking for a nothing burger... Anakin is whole both Anakin and Vader are one. Like anakin told her when she started harping on the past and he said "is that what all this is about?" He went into his dark form to teach her that she needs to forgive herself for what she couldn't control. And to choose to life for the future rather than die because of the past.
The Vader in the suit is more likely an illusion that anakin can create. Darksiders cannot become curve ghost at most they can attach their spirits to objects. Anakin seems like much more than a normal force ghost probably because he’s the chosen one and potential taken the place of the father or something like a force priests
George Lucas was involved with the filming of Ahsoka as he was with Mandalorian so I think he approves of this change. Let's face it. Anakin isn't an ordinary being or even an ordinary Jedi. He's the literal offspring of the Force so by extension in the afterlife in the words of Obi-Wan in Ep. IV: A New Hope 'become more powerful than you can possibly imagine'. Might even be on the same power levels of Q in Star Trek.
Honestly it seems pretty well within character for Anakin to appear to his old Padawan when she needed 1 last lesson. His ascension to the force gave him full control over light and dark. To ascend as he did he would have had to achieve perfect balance in both light and dark.
His final lesson to Ashoka isn’t finished episode 5 was the beginning of the final lesson
Exactly what I’m thinking. That’s why he says “there’s hope for you yet” and not “lesson complete”. There’s hope that she will learn the lesson. Meaning she hasn’t learned it yet.
This was the Force Ghost of Anakin Skywalker, that Luke Skywalker saw at the end of Star Wars Episode VI Return of the Jedi along with Obi-Wan Kenobi & Yoda, during the celebration on Endor, that means, that this was not the World Between Worlds, but it was actually the Star Wars afterlife, also Anakin Skywalker told Ahsoka, during episode 4, "I didn't expect to see you so soon."
Nice, but I think you all are missing some important clues given.
Baylan sees Ahsoka dropping and his conversation with Sabine he talks to her like given Ahsoka as dead. Probably he sees she hitting the rocks bellow.
Talking about the place when this all happened probably is a powerful force nexus. And if happened in other place she probably not was presented with the choice to live or die.
What I think that happened, was she body are in some place in the water but her spirit cross to world between worlds. And what go next is a near death experience. One of the first thing Anakin tolde to her was, he was not expecting her there so soon. The second thing he said to her is that she lost, but has a chance to live. And that is because she remember what happened.
So he pass thru her blocking her avance in the afterlife path, and force her back to the beginning of the path that was pretty close if you see. And when they get there he make her see a part of her life.
I think that was 2 things happening.
First Anakin is making she choose live or die, but he dont want that she die, so stop fighting is always the wrong answer to him.
The second thing is the training, like all Jedi knight they have to face the dark side and come back of the experience.
In the end her eyes has revealing her dark side, but she do not let it take control over her beside wishes to strike down what he became, she make peace, stopping the fight and choosing to live.
What she realizes is that she can be everything Anakin was and more, but this is the path she must follow and what she becomes will be forged by her own decisions.
The boy and Hera heard the lightsabers, I believe it was more because the place was a point of convergence in the force. But many must be wondering why she listened?
Just remember the first lesson. The force is present in all living beings.
And some have the talence to chanel and use this power.
Well that is what I thing is going on \o/
Remember, Ahsoka is the embodiment of the sister since she died on Mortis. Anakin is, partially, the embodiment of the brother.
Since they are in the world between worlds, that is what connects them in a world with no time!
I'd say hes more of an embodiment of the father since he has control of both the light and the dark but yeah i get what ur saying
I think he is more the father then the brother
Fair point. Anakin did always struggle with balance. Maybe death allows him to finally embody the wish of the father.
To ultimately become the balance in the force, like his prophesy!
If this was a Force ghost, I dont really see this as a retcon. If he can show himselves as either version, then why would his only showing himself as a light Anakin in RotJ contradict the duality he shows later? There would be no reason to show his other side to Luke in that instance particularly as his role at that time was reassurance. Its not as if he would just involuntarily flicker back and forth all the time (as I doubt it was involuntary with Ahsoka).
Besides, I am not convinced force ghost Anakin truly is dual. He just appeared that way to teach Ahsoka a much needed lesson.
Also the question of if it's in Ahoskas head or not we can question from his comment about the Siege of Mandalore segment. Since that piece he wasn't there for, but the powers of the force/ world between worlds is they can be influenced by all aspects so pulling from Ahsoka and allowing the manifestation of Anakin present it allows of that interaction to take place. Seeing as in comics Vader supposbly goes there after it happens so its not like he is ignorant of the event just does recognize it intially.
They never said Force ghosts couldn’t change the forms they appear in so it can’t be a retcon if there wasn’t an established guideline or rule before hand lol.
Also everything you mentioned might be “retcons” really are not lol. Like I said, you can’t contradict something that wasn’t previously established as fact already
I love this pre-Darth-Vader Anakin, so arrogant, so angry, so divided, so brutal
Even in the old expanded universe he could switch between Anakin and Vader.He did the same in Legacy with Cade Skywalker.
▌Cade Skywalker.▐
A.k.a. Jake Skywalker done right.
Seeing Hayden getting to play good boi Anakin is fantastic. I love that. Even though I REALLY love Matt Lanter's Anakin. And he really fleshes out the character, this version of Hayden CLEANLY blends both his own and Lanter's Anakin into one. Very nice
I love Star Wars and lightsaber fights in particular. But I do have to say just this one thing about people who engage in lightsaber battle. STOP turning your back to your opponent! It's the quickest way of getting stabbed in the back of the head or worse your butt!! Please stop, please make it stop!
If you played Fallen Order, Jaro Tapal pushed Cal Kestis almost the same way
I like to think the show Visions and this episode 5 are basically the same things: they are force visions, not quite visits from force ghosts. Whether brought on by Anakin or experienced solely by Ahsoka, I think the visions show things as the viewer perceives them in the moment, always changing based on their understanding of that which they view. Anakin changes based on Ahsokas understanding. Just like the visions show is, in my head, Jedi visions being experienced by a Jedi in order to learn from the past. Just my head canon. Lol
I think Lucasfilm realised all the WASTED potential of not touching Luke Skywalker for 30 years that they will not repeat the same mistake with Anakin. While he can still portray Anakin, please do more. The more Anakin the better for me!!! Not a Vader fan. But Anakin is my favorite character in Star Wars ever.
6:30 Ahsoka wouldn’t need to know. Jedi can have force visions for example to see the future or some other (hidden) knowledge.
I am pretty sure that force ghosts could enter someones mind 😅
He's took over the mortis gods position as the last mortis god. Seeing as he's lived 2 lives, one light, one dark. He now has time as a force ghost to fulfil the prophecy of the one who will bring balance to the force.
I think it’s a stretch to say the Vader+Anakin voice is a direct reference to the other times it’s happened in shows. I think it’s just an audio artistic detail.
2 personalities in 1
This isn't a retcon. Anakin is fulfilling his destiny of becoming a Mortis God from the Clone Wars series. Ahsoka was also touched by the Son and is tainted by the darkside. Him being a Force Ghost may be the natural progression of fulfill that destiny. Sort like he has to level up being a force ghost first. It was said he was to replace the father and have the ability to control both the light and the dark. He can utilize whatever aspect of himself best suits the balance of the force, which is his responsibility now.
He's a force god now, Nuff said. Let's not overthink it.
I’am curious why , i can se anakin with one red eye and bigger than the other one that is yellow/red? Am i the only one that see that?
Here is the explanation, the Worlds Between Worlds is a realm or dimension where space, time, life, and death operate on a different level than simply the physical world. This had already been established both in the Clone Wars, Rebels, and the Vader comics.
We already know there is the Cosmic Force, and the Living Force. Entities such as The Wills, and even the Gods of Mortis, exist in their relative or respective domains of the Cosmic Force.
The World Between Worlds are but the networks of what is, what has been, and what could be. Meaning any entity could exist in any form they choose because time is not as linear. Already Ahsoka Tano was already a hiccup in time when Ezra yanked her out in Rebels. So it would not be that far fetched, that she is as much tied as Anakin manifesting in it as well. They both made contact in their lifetimes. Ahsoka in Rebels, Anakin in the Vader comics.
when something of star wars comes out, i break it down piece by piece by piece, and since i notice the smallest details most miss, and have a perfect "photographic" memory, remember every detail of stuff seen star wars being main focus
Anakin in Ep. 5 is a Force manifestation. He can physically manifest in the World Between Worlds (he makes physical contact with Ahsoka and she with him). He is not a "ghost" in that sense. No blue hue. Here's something to consider: Anakin may be powerful enough to fully manifest in the real world (ok, in the "Star Wars" real world). Yoda did physical damage to the real world. It may be possible for Anakin to do so as well. Wouldn't that be interesting?
expanding on the force more isn’t just a retcon when the force is ever changing in star wars
Imagine that conversation.
Luke: "So anyway, I was all like I will not fight you, Father. And then his boss started shooting lightning out of his fingertips at me."
From my point of view what we saw in the last episode was not Anakin's force ghost, but a manifestation of Anakin by the force itself, similar to how Vader appeared to Luke in the cave on Dagobah, but not Vader himself. As with the line about "not wanting to fight" having been heard by Anakin before, well, that's because it is simply part of star wars history now, and is therefor cemented in the force itself, (the force basically knowing what happened back then, and using that little bit of knowledge in this particular moment). Afterall, to become a force ghost, you have to be free of everything having to do with the dark side. Retconning that part would only muddy the lore waters even further, and i think Dave wouldn't go that far, but we'll see.
I think it's somewhere between a force ghost and hallucination/dream-like state due to her being unconscious and also living within the Force. As such, dialogue shouldn't all be taken literally, as in "I've heard that before." When we dream not all dialogue is snippets of what we've heard before, it's just weird random stuff, though often, but not always, based on experience. It's a TV show, and that was fan service.
if Anakin would have been a force ghost or manifestation, he wouldnt made footsteps on the path in the world between worlds. but the floor immediately reacts to all of his steps, like we can see on Ahsokas steps. in contrast of this is Lukes manifestation on Crait. his appearance clearly doesnt imprint footprints on the ground, in contrast to Kylos. so this is a hint, that force projections doesnt interact with their environment.
i know, sounds a little bit superficial, but could be an explanation
the simplest answer is usually the correct one guys, Ahsoka is learning where she fits in the Legacy of her masters eg, is she good or evil (she has sith eyes for a second and dismisses them) or maybe somewhere in between, with the world between worlds you take in your personal baggage and what the force wants you to see and overcome.
it's not a manifestation with the quote "I've heard that before" Asohka wouldn't know that reference. He's a mortis God
I'm just happy to see more Hayden/Anakin in live action. Episode 5 was possibly the best piece of star wars media ever, yes it's only possible because of the amazing prequels and even the Obi-Wan show but 3 of my top 5-10 all time favourite SW characters were on screen together for the first time ever in live action and it Dave done an amazing job.
At the 11 second mark, when Ahsokas missed roundhouse kick at Anakin, Anakin could have just lightsabered her leg, lol!
She was literally drowning. I feel it's her memories flashing before her eyes, just before death. And The Force influencing the situation. Just on the verge of crossing over, she "wakes up" from the visions, yet still underwater...
I feel like it’s so simple. Even more simple than someone else points out.
Simply put… Anakin did it. He was trying to get Ahsoka to fight for life. She’s very jaded at this point and he is trying to snap her out of it. His power allowed him to simply put on a performance for her.
I really don't think it's a Retcon. He's the chosen one and can control both dark and light
This episode was just a near death experience she was having. Annie wasn't actually there.
Let us take a moment a praise our lord and savior Dave Filoni for my over look his retcons for the glory and preservation of the continued story of Star Wars
Anikans life was fated. He had to experience the most extremes that life have to offer. To become the harbinger to force the custodian of the force.
It’s like the force afterlife combined with the Dagobah cave. Ahsoka died and went to the afterlife which maybe is or part of the world between worlds. It also shares similarities to Gandalf in LOTR or even when Harry Potter dies and meets Dumbledor.
This also could be the reason he doesn’t have the blue hue. Bc he is the balance between light and dark so when he’s in the war between worlds he shows up that way? I remember the father saying whoever can bend the will has the power
Could it not be both? A vision in Ahsoka's mind, but influenced by Anakin? Anakin could still be the traditional blue-glowy force ghost, but he's not physically manifesting here, just nudging with the Force and letting Ahsoka's mind do the rest.
I took the reason he is and looks more solid is that the world between worlds is like theee force and ahoka could also be there in spirit because She's on Death's door
Hardly a retcon.
Star Wars always took place in a galaxy far, far away... Imagine if the new galaxy is not so far, far away because it is OUR galaxy, the milky way...
No when he said “I’ve heard that before” on rebels she said she won’t fight him 6:08
He also switched to vader when he walked away in the ahsoka battlefield memory.
trailers never show the finish show or movie those missing words from anakin may never be sad in the series remember the trailer from rouge one with jyn and the tie fighter also i doubt is a retcon since they are inside the world between worlds wich in my mind look way better in live action then they did in rebels
I'd like Anakin to make more guest appearances, either just being imagined by Ahsoka or as a force ghost, i don't mind, as long as there is interaction between them.
A candle may cast shadows of other things but not of it’s own flame….
It was just Anakin teaching Ahsoka the lesson. He also has mastered his control over both sides in the afterlife and change between both at will.
I don't think the Jedi understood what bring balance to the force truly ment. The chosen one had to experience the light and dark side of the force to bring balance and he was the trigger to bring balance.
People like to use retcons when world building is happening force ghosts haven't really bbeen explored
It doesn't retcon anything about Force ghosts. Force ghosts so far in canon manifest physically either however the living being communicating with them last knew them (Obi Wan and Yoda in the OT and then Yoda in TLJ, and Qui Gon's non-corporeal manifestation and now with Anakin communing with Ahsoka) or as they last existed as a wielder of the Light side of the Force (like Anakin in ROTJ donning traditional Jedi garb). Qui Gon even continues to learn to manifest a physical image while existing in the Living Force to be able to visually manifest to Obi Wan during his exile on Tatooine and that is telling to what Ahsoka experiences. We're constantly finding out how Force ghosts are able to manifest and interact with the physical world (like with Yoda in TLJ) but in the WBW, even those rules may be skewed. Anakin has been redeemed and only the Light side of him exists in the Living Force, but he's teaching Ahsoka and using her own fears (her feeling at fault for Anakin's turn and her own potential to turn to the Dark side) to help her see how she's able to move forward. He's basically creating a Force Nexus like we see in ESB and TLJ and using it to educate Ahsoka. His Force ghost doesn't have echos of Vader within it (he never would've been allowed to transition into existing into the Living Force had he retained any of it) but he can still project images of it without existing within it.