Been balling for almost 25 years and I've played EPPL league in Canada for like a 5 year stretch and I used to order paint for me and my buddies 10 and 20 cases at a time. I'm trying to establish that I've seen a LOT of paint. Empire Polar Ice Paintballs purchased in 2014/2015 were the only paintball formula that EVER needed to exist. I still have a few boxes of them to this day, there is absolutely ZERO sweat in the bag they look like fresh new paintballs, when any other ball would have decomposed into zombie mush. They still feel mostly firm to the touch while I don't know if it's 100% I bet they still shoot alright for a 10 year old ball. I kept them because they are a Winter ball while I transitioned into Speedball/league and my winter woodsball never did come back online. Now I think I keep them because they're a natural wonder to me and I show people. I've shot other winter balls, some were terrible, some did what they're supposed to but would not shoot straight, but these balls gave you that "ball on ball feel" and never busted in yer barrel even in winter. This sport could be so much stronger if we could just eliminate the bad formulas. Honestly bad paint has done more to hurt this sport than anything because we all remember being new to the game and not understanding why our paintball guns didn't work.
Thank you for the breakdown and historical exploration. I am convinced that there are relative differences in ball path, vibration resonance, and trigger time to ball shot times that make different markers feel varying in accuracy though but paintball is definitely fun playing with quirky balls. I even enjoy the luck/bad luck magic of bounces etc.
Definitely glad you're diving into the "nuts and bolts" of the science which makes the game work and the limitations. You're the first person I have seen in video even so much as mention Perfect Circle , and yes it is tragically expensive but that also goes with it's role as training ammo for officers using pepperballs / less lethal persuasion devices. The closest the commercial paintball market has seen within reasonable budgetary means comparatively is the First Strike Ultra Spherical Projectile (USP) . But it's a powder filled projectile so it's actual use is dubious to the average paintballer , and still not quite as well made at the seam as Perfect Circle was . It's also sadly not as dense as a traditional high quality paintball , so any actual gains from being that much closer to Perfect Circle is rendered rather moot. The only gain is a tighter paint to barrel seal when bore sized for the day. The work you're putting in here is VERY important as it's backing up and cataloguing information & data which has been sadly limited in it's spread and runs the risk of being lost / forgotten altogether. I suggest if at all possible making multiple independent redundant back-ups for posterity's sake. The industry has not in the past and we've already paid the price for it with over a decade in stagnation of development. I look forward to seeing how future episode of this will play out and what data you bring, Keep up the great work!
As always, thank you kindly! Great, substantive post, and it's a pleasure dialoguing with you. It is indeed a pity that so much has been lost. For one thing, it's meant years of work gathering up the crumbs in many cases. :-) Have compiled lots of what I believe to be the most important data (including data from my own long-term testing over several years), and the distillation of that will go into these videos. Part of this project will also be to make reference to some of the more accessible archives/outlets with respect to the most pertinent information, but even that will take a long time, and involve several videos. A tall order, but as you say, our community needs it, and has suffered too many lapses in both judgment and memory. Thanks for being a member of this little sub-community.
reignick1133 after doing some hacking, I've determined that Tom Kaye's company makes the rounds for pepperball (less lethal). Pepperball manufactures their products in the same factory as First Strike. Therefore it is my theory that USPS are manufactured by Tom Kaye's company.
I should have mentioned such. I used to sell less lethal solutions and can confirm that , Yes Tom Kaye and Simon Stephens developed the FN 303 and do indeed have majority control over the US Pepperball market as well as it's research. ALL of the Tiberius / First Strike developments and the majority of their products in paintball stem from their hard work , research and findings. The First Strike round is based entirely on the projectiles used for the Fabrique Nationale FN 303. Likewise their Ultra Spherical Projectiles (USP) rounds are based upon Perfect Circle paintball manufacturing processes. Similarly the FN 303 Less lethal deterrent system is a modified AGD Automag valve system with a bottom loading spring powered 15 round single stack rotary drum magazine. What Dan here has mentioned on increasing the density of the projectiles to lethal degrees actually stems from both the advancement of Perfect Circle / Pepperballs and originally the projectiles for the FN 303. The latter FN 303 projectiles to this day as it is for *Less lethal* purposes is still VERY dense and projected *far faster* than the 300 Fps. ASTM approved maximum safe velocity than we use in paintball. Fabrique Nationale chose to take Tom Kaye & Simon Stephens' projectile density & stabilization findings and apply them because the system is to be used by military and LEO agencies as a step down in aggressiveness from actually using *guaranteed lethal* response such as rifles submachineguns and pistols. The density research for the finned projectile of the FN 303 was chosen to provide those agencies with a longer distance deterrent system, to which it has been a success. The method used to achieve the needed projectile density & stability at longer distance engagement was a powdered metal. Bismuth to be specific inserted along side the O.C. powder payload within the tip of the projectile, similar was applied in the mix for Perfect Circle rounds used in T&E to increase the density of the projectile before they found the effects were achieving lethal velocities and were unsafe. Sadly the finned less lethal projectiles sheer density and projected velocity has caused unintended fatalities in a relatively small few cases of their deployment. "Less Lethal" sadly does not mean non-lethal but this is the same for all systems be they Tazer Pepperball, FN 303, any Oleoresin Capsicum delivery systems, CS gas delivery systems ( o-chlorobenzylidene malononitrile) , or otherwise. The intent is not to kill / to engage , deter, apprehend using the *minimum amount of force that is practical* and to minimize losses collateral damages / loss of life. But the outcomes can still be lethal. The Fabrique Nationale FN 303 less lethal Deterrent System *CAN be modified back to it's original AGD Automag valve /velocity control specifications* thus after said modifications it can be safely used to launch First Strike paint projectiles at ATSM approved velocities making it approved for use in mag fed paintball , woodsball , or scenario games. The FN 303P however is a modified Tiberius T8 pistol and *should not be used for paintball* , as the modifications done to make it a longer distance Less Lethal projection device are rather irksome to revert back to the original Tiberius T8 specifications. The best solution would be just save your time and money to buy a stock Tiberius T8 if your intention is to use it for paintball, and avoid the purchase of an already more expensive FN 303P. *Edited for spelling & kerning errors , as I typed this up a bit too quickly.
YUP! great Video!. I think Paintballs are as good as they'll get, and equipment that is good enough to make the most of them is pretty common place.. Same reasons real fire arms didnt continue using round ball, Moved over to spiral stabilized Accuracy and distance matter more than accuracy though volume. Thats why First Strike Rounds will be here for good, On the other hand so will round ball, as close quarter combat is best with round ball.
Good quality paintballs are accurate up to a certain distance; shooting someone in the mask across field when you aimed at the mask is good enough for me.
Nice video Dan! Great job explaining some of the basic insurmountable physical limitations as related to the paintball accuracy question.
Thank you, sir!
Been balling for almost 25 years and I've played EPPL league in Canada for like a 5 year stretch and I used to order paint for me and my buddies 10 and 20 cases at a time. I'm trying to establish that I've seen a LOT of paint. Empire Polar Ice Paintballs purchased in 2014/2015 were the only paintball formula that EVER needed to exist. I still have a few boxes of them to this day, there is absolutely ZERO sweat in the bag they look like fresh new paintballs, when any other ball would have decomposed into zombie mush. They still feel mostly firm to the touch while I don't know if it's 100% I bet they still shoot alright for a 10 year old ball. I kept them because they are a Winter ball while I transitioned into Speedball/league and my winter woodsball never did come back online. Now I think I keep them because they're a natural wonder to me and I show people. I've shot other winter balls, some were terrible, some did what they're supposed to but would not shoot straight, but these balls gave you that "ball on ball feel" and never busted in yer barrel even in winter. This sport could be so much stronger if we could just eliminate the bad formulas. Honestly bad paint has done more to hurt this sport than anything because we all remember being new to the game and not understanding why our paintball guns didn't work.
Thank you for the breakdown and historical exploration. I am convinced that there are relative differences in ball path, vibration resonance, and trigger time to ball shot times that make different markers feel varying in accuracy though but paintball is definitely fun playing with quirky balls. I even enjoy the luck/bad luck magic of bounces etc.
welcome to youtube's paintball aerospace academy. this was so dope! thankyou
Thank you for the kind words, and welcome to the channel! Glad it was helpful.
Definitely glad you're diving into the "nuts and bolts" of the science which makes the game work and the limitations. You're the first person I have seen in video even so much as mention Perfect Circle , and yes it is tragically expensive but that also goes with it's role as training ammo for officers using pepperballs / less lethal persuasion devices.
The closest the commercial paintball market has seen within reasonable budgetary means comparatively is the First Strike Ultra Spherical Projectile (USP) .
But it's a powder filled projectile so it's actual use is dubious to the average paintballer , and still not quite as well made at the seam as Perfect Circle was .
It's also sadly not as dense as a traditional high quality paintball , so any actual gains from being that much closer to Perfect Circle is rendered rather moot.
The only gain is a tighter paint to barrel seal when bore sized for the day.
The work you're putting in here is VERY important as it's backing up and cataloguing information & data which has been sadly limited in it's spread and runs the risk of being lost / forgotten altogether.
I suggest if at all possible making multiple independent redundant back-ups for posterity's sake. The industry has not in the past and we've already paid the price for it with over a decade in stagnation of development.
I look forward to seeing how future episode of this will play out and what data you bring, Keep up the great work!
As always, thank you kindly! Great, substantive post, and it's a pleasure dialoguing with you.
It is indeed a pity that so much has been lost. For one thing, it's meant years of work gathering up the crumbs in many cases. :-)
Have compiled lots of what I believe to be the most important data (including data from my own long-term testing over several years), and the distillation of that will go into these videos. Part of this project will also be to make reference to some of the more accessible archives/outlets with respect to the most pertinent information, but even that will take a long time, and involve several videos.
A tall order, but as you say, our community needs it, and has suffered too many lapses in both judgment and memory.
Thanks for being a member of this little sub-community.
reignick1133 after doing some hacking, I've determined that Tom Kaye's company makes the rounds for pepperball (less lethal). Pepperball manufactures their products in the same factory as First Strike. Therefore it is my theory that USPS are manufactured by Tom Kaye's company.
I should have mentioned such. I used to sell less lethal solutions and can confirm that , Yes Tom Kaye and Simon Stephens developed the FN 303 and do indeed have majority control over the US Pepperball market as well as it's research.
ALL of the Tiberius / First Strike developments and the majority of their products in paintball stem from their hard work , research and findings.
The First Strike round is based entirely on the projectiles used for the Fabrique Nationale FN 303. Likewise their Ultra Spherical Projectiles (USP) rounds are based upon Perfect Circle paintball manufacturing processes.
Similarly the FN 303 Less lethal deterrent system is a modified AGD Automag valve system with a bottom loading spring powered 15 round single stack rotary drum magazine.
What Dan here has mentioned on increasing the density of the projectiles to lethal degrees actually stems from both the advancement of Perfect Circle / Pepperballs and originally the projectiles for the FN 303.
The latter FN 303 projectiles to this day as it is for *Less lethal* purposes is still VERY dense and projected *far faster* than the 300 Fps. ASTM approved maximum safe velocity than we use in paintball.
Fabrique Nationale chose to take Tom Kaye & Simon Stephens' projectile density & stabilization findings and apply them because the system is to be used by military and LEO agencies as a step down in aggressiveness from actually using *guaranteed lethal* response such as rifles submachineguns and pistols.
The density research for the finned projectile of the FN 303 was chosen to provide those agencies with a longer distance deterrent system, to which it has been a success.
The method used to achieve the needed projectile density & stability at longer distance engagement was a powdered metal. Bismuth to be specific inserted along side the O.C. powder payload within the tip of the projectile, similar was applied in the mix for Perfect Circle rounds used in T&E to increase the density of the projectile before they found the effects were achieving lethal velocities and were unsafe.
Sadly the finned less lethal projectiles sheer density and projected velocity has caused unintended fatalities in a relatively small few cases of their deployment.
"Less Lethal" sadly does not mean non-lethal but this is the same for all systems be they Tazer Pepperball, FN 303, any Oleoresin Capsicum delivery systems, CS gas delivery systems ( o-chlorobenzylidene malononitrile) , or otherwise.
The intent is not to kill / to engage , deter, apprehend using the *minimum amount of force that is practical* and to minimize losses collateral damages / loss of life. But the outcomes can still be lethal.
The Fabrique Nationale FN 303 less lethal Deterrent System *CAN be modified back to it's original AGD Automag valve /velocity control specifications* thus after said modifications it can be safely used to launch First Strike paint projectiles at ATSM approved velocities making it approved for use in mag fed paintball , woodsball , or scenario games.
The FN 303P however is a modified Tiberius T8 pistol and *should not be used for paintball* , as the modifications done to make it a longer distance Less Lethal projection device are rather irksome to revert back to the original Tiberius T8 specifications.
The best solution would be just save your time and money to buy a stock Tiberius T8 if your intention is to use it for paintball, and avoid the purchase of an already more expensive FN 303P.
*Edited for spelling & kerning errors , as I typed this up a bit too quickly.
awsome episode bud. cant WAIT for the next one
Thank you, sir!
YUP! great Video!.
I think Paintballs are as good as they'll get, and equipment that is good enough to make the most of them is pretty common place..
Same reasons real fire arms didnt continue using round ball, Moved over to spiral stabilized
Accuracy and distance matter more than accuracy though volume.
Thats why First Strike Rounds will be here for good, On the other hand so will round ball, as close quarter combat is best with round ball.
great video very informative keep them coming
Thank you, sir, and will do!
Good quality paintballs are accurate up to a certain distance; shooting someone in the mask across field when you aimed at the mask is good enough for me.
Agreed, but we are always looking for any and every edge in the sport.
heavy paintballs do help in windy days
If we could focus on eliminating bad paint.
5.56 projectiles are only 4 g……
They’re also spin stabilized and have a low drag coefficient….
666 suscribers :-|
This guy knows nothing, make 4 barrel marker pushing 60 bps , there accuracy problem fixed