@@treystephens6166 Because the emperor saw Vader as a tool to get Luke since Vader himself reached a peak in power and couldn't break the ceiling due to getting crippled by kenobi
When Vader says “I MUST obey my master” I always interpreted that as the dark side getting a hold of you in a way that is beyond reason. I felt it gave the vibe of “I couldn’t leave even if I wanted to”. Which to me meant he is in the peak of abusive relationships. He is fetching his replacement for his master and that replacement happens to be his son. Pretty dark. Love these videos. Definitely make more.
That's absolutely what he's saying. It just turned out that Vader could rebel after all, but at the cost of the life and power he'd been holding onto for all those years.
Anakin has been in an abusive relationship with the Sidious for decades. Raised as a slave by a single slave mother, no father figure, it's no surprise he latched on to a strong male role model (Sidious) even if he was a piece of shit. When he goes to turn his own son over to that same abuser, it is a very dark concept, but it shows just how far into being an enabler Anakin is. It showed even more powerfully when Sidious is torturing Luke with force lightning--any well-adjusted father would have been at Sidious' throat the moment he zapped Luke. For Anakin, though, it took many seconds to overcome that lifetime of conditioning and finally come to his son's rescue.
Because the Dark Side is addictive. An addict *can* fight his urges, any time in their life. Sidious is pretty much controlling Vader the same way a drug lord controls their minions: intoxication and dependency plus intimidation.
@@庫倫亞利克 Yes. Anakin didn't get taught self-control by his mother. If he'd been trained by the Jedi from an early age, it would have made all the difference.
Oh man, Thor, I’m glad you brought this up. I noticed something after Revenge of the Sith. Remember right before their fight on Mustafar, Anakin and Obi-Wan are talking. Obi-Wan says, “You have allowed this dark lord to twist your mind until now… until now you have become the very thing you swore to destroy.” Anakin then responds, “Don’t lecture me Obi-Wan. I see through the lies of the Jedi. [and this is the key line] I don’t fear the dark side as you do.” This is a direct foreshadowing of when Vader says to Luke, “Obi-Wan once thought as you do. You don’t know the power of the dark side. I must obey my master.” In other words, that whole time Vader has his back to Luke, he’s thinking about Obi-Wan and, as Luke is pleading with him to come back to the light, Vader simply dismisses Luke because he thinks he just fears the dark side. He’s just like his master, Obi-Wan, who also feared the dark side. Just an observation I had recently.
Yep. There’s no need to shoehorn in an argument or fight between Vader and Obi-Wan in between Episodes III and IV. Revenge of the Sith has the “Obi-Wan once thought as you” line covered, because of course, Obi-Wan didn’t just land on Mustafar and immediately come at Vader. Obi-Wan had to hear it from the Tauntaun’s mouth that Anakin had indeed fallen to the Dark Side. 💀
@@austintrousdale2397 Then you are lost. Reasoning with Anakin, defending himself from Anakin and even fighting past a room full of corpses, it took until then to realise there was no hope there.
@@austintrousdale2397 - tauntaun's mouth? Huh? He saw the video footage of Anakin killing younglings, that's how he knew. But my question is if there never was another meeting then how did Obi Wan know Anakin was "more machine now than man"? He saw it for himself at some point
"You don't know the power of the dark side; I must obey my master." I sort of take this as a different interpretation than most people. Not that Vader was saying the enticement of the dark side was too powerful to resist, but rather that his master was too powerful to fight against. In a sense, when he said, "You don't know the power of the dark side", he wasn't talking about the power inside of himself, but rather the power of Sidious. Vader doesn't have the power, doesn't have the courage to oppose the Emperor, and thus he "must" obey him. Even Vader is a slave himself.
If that's the case when he says "obi wan once thought as you do" what would he be referring to? Underestimating sith instead of the dark side as a whole?
For me, it’s kind of all 3 interpretations in one. Like Vader is saying that Obi Wan once thought that He could be turned but he was wrong, cause he didn’t know how strong the dark side’s hold can be on someone. That it fully corrupts and enslaves people. And the only one that has complete mastery of that power is Darth Sidious himself thus there is no point in even thinking to oppose him.
And of course there is all the different instances of Vader trying to gather people to kill Sidious ala the whole force unleashed story, or when he tells Luke "Luke, you can destroy the emperor. He has for-seen this. It is your destiny. Join me and together, we can rule the galaxy as father and son." So your take on that line has merit. Vader knew he would never be powerful enough to kill Palpatine alone.
Remember Vader had a dream that Luke and him ran away but the Empire finds them. Palpatine kills Luke in front of Vader and he is helpless, unable to stop it. Also, from the Vader comics, this comes after Vader's "duel" with Palpatine. Vader realizes how strong Palpatine is on Exogel when Sideous is able to stand next to the crystal without it having any effect. OTOH Vader experiences extreme pain and suffering, he realizes how strong his master is at this point.
On recent rewatches of RotJ, I've interpreted that conversation as Anakin subtly trying to warn Luke about Palpatine. That Palpatine and the Dark Side were more powerful and seductive than he knew Luke was anticipating. Also, when Vader/Anakin responds to Luke's "There is still good in you, I know it," with "It is too late for me, son," I took it as Anakin saying that even if Luke succeeded in turning him back to the Light, Palpatine had too much power over him - he couldn't leave. He sounded regretful and there was a sort of implied significance (like a warning) in every line he spoke.
There's also the fact that the rebel alliance would demand his head for his crimes. There really was no way Vader could live even if he willingly stepped away from the darkness and leave the Empire behind.
And regardless of the rebellion’s judgement, the evil he had committed could never be undone, and the weight of his sins would stain his soul forever. There was really no going back; only an opportunity to save the last bit of good left in his life one final time.
@@purpleemerald5299 much like what befell Ulic Qul Droma and his self imposed exile, he felt great shame in what he had done at Exar Kuns side and cut himself off from the Force and Galaxy at large...until Nomi Sunrider brought her daughter to him to train.
I love that scene, always have. Very moving. And Vader says towards the end "It is too late for me, son". At right at the very end Luke says "Then my father is truly dead". Just love it!
Vaders death hits harder tho. “Tell your sister you were right.”. “Father, I won’t leave you.” Such a beautiful, heartbreaking scene. Luke is such a good son and a great character
I think it's interesting the impact of Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru had on Luke is so frequently not even acknowledged. Yes, there was typical 'I'm ready to start life' frustration in New Hope, but he was safe to express that; had already given an extra year because they needed him. He was secure in their affection even so, just as they were secure in his. I've always thought the reason Luke could and did believe there was *good* left in Vader was based on his Uncle and Aunt's parenting. He had a grounding in unconditional love that so many Jedi do not - despite this being a basis of how they are to live - not surprising since Jedi were taken from parents / family so young. He didn't have that empty place from childhood needing to be filled that a dark side master can find an original toe-hold in and exploit. Anakin was desperate for the security of a parent that wasn't enslaved and therefore could be sold away from him in a heartbeat, and so very vulnerable. Luke was not. The contrast is why I don't "hate" Phantom Menace or the prequels and can see, despite typical human imperfection and down the road storylines, Luke as a Hero. Anakin wanted to be a Hero, it's a repeated theme for him, but despite similar guidance from Obi-Wan & Yode, responded differently internally, in his heart. Of course, Luke was grown when he met the force and teachers and Ready to step beyond the nest and parents. That's my quick dive after enjoying Yours! :grin:
I too think Owen and Beru don't get nearly the credit they deserve. Luke was loved, guarded, and was taught discipline and the value of hard work (patience came later).
Brilliant idea - No Jedi can be a hero, because the Jedi have no real love and no real family; they are not truly members of society. For all their abilities, they are lacking. They avoid love and family because they fear the vulnerability, the risk that could lead to the dark side. It's the Jedi's fear (and denial of that fear) which makes them falter in the face of the dark side. But Luke had family, and love. Those are the missing ingredients of a hero - they give someone the vulnerability, and strength, to face the darkness and prevail. Luke had the best of both worlds and it's what sets him apart. I really really like that thinking.
I have actually mentioned this a few times on some other RUclips channels. Luke is closer to what the Force means for the Jedis to be than they were. Think about what we know of the Force from Yoda. Life creates it and makes it grow. It binds all beings together. Get the Jedi are not creating life because they're not meant to create attachments. They are ultimately betraying the nature of the Force. Eventually the Force creates a being, Anakin, Who proves all of their points wrong. He does have attachments and often these attachments are a source of strength for him. He creates life during his marriage with his wife. But instead of seeing the mirror, the Force is holding up to them revealing all of their shortcomings, the Jedi doubled down on their ridiculous precepts. The greatest of them did not come to them as an infant, but they keep on destroying families throughout the Galaxy to fill their ranks by taking babies. Anakin's connections consistently lead them to where they need to be in the galaxy, yet they continue to insist that attachments are inappropriate. What if they embraced him? What if they'd seen that? In fact, they don't need to take babies or deny attachments? Palpatine would have had a much harder time leading to their destruction. After all, it was their aloofness from the galaxy, and the suspicion they're taking infants and toddlers naturally generated, which led to them having so few supporters when they finally fell. Palpatine might have in fact found himself forced to remain in the shadows. But Yoda and Obi-Wan learn absolutely nothing from this. They deceive Luke, and either didn't intend to tell him that Vader was his father until after he committed an act of patricide, or thought that once Luke was firmly trained his attachment to his biological parents wouldn't matter anymore. Fortunately, Luke had been raised by good moral people. He, like the Galaxy as a whole, understood how absolutely intolerable patricide was. If he had done with the Jed I had wanted, Luke would have been broken. They simply would have replaced one Sith Lord with another. I think that it is seeing Luke's succeed in redeeming his father that taught Yoda this lesson, that their detachment was never the will of the Force. Why else would he have criticized Luke so greatly in "The Last Jedi"? Yoda knows that Luke ultimately failed because he forgot the lessons he learned from his uncle and aunt. He'd adopted the detachment of the Jedi, against the will of the Force, and had raised his emotionally damaged nephew -- who desperately needed to know he was wanted, loved, and accepted -- in a manner where Luke's single moment of darkness - when he was falsely tempted to kill Ben - destroyed. Ben. Had he stayed true to the man he was when he faced his father, he would have embraced his nephew, he would have raised Ben as his nephew and not as his apprentice. And Ben would have made a spectacular Jedi. Of course, one could also argue that being a child soldier called Leia emotional and psychological trauma. Trauma which she then inflicted upon her son. She had lost so many people that she learned to hold them a bit distantly. But you cannot hold a child at a distance, not unless you want to ruin that child. So one can really see Star Wars As a damning indictment against distanced parenting, I suppose. I guess there aren't any child psychologists or psychiatrists in a galaxy far far away.
@@micheledeetlefs6041 You're onto something. I previously worked with a guy that worked on Season 1 of The Clone Wars so I used to mine his brain a lot. That idea of damaged relationships between father and son has always been present in Star Wars. It has always reflected George Lucas's strained relationship with his own real-life son.
Shorter, longer, they're all good videos. I like your interpretation of Vader's dialog here! Particularly the idea that Vader started to see Luke as an alternate version of himself - the same teacher, but uncorrupted by the Dark Side.
I've always taken this exchange between Luke and Vader as cowardice on Vader's part. To take a line from Gladiator, Maximus says to Commodus, "I think you have been afraid your whole life." Fear is a path to the Dark Side. Vader was afraid to lose his mother and afraid to lose his wife. This opened him up to manipulation which the Emperor used against him. Now he is afraid of the Emperor. Him telling Luke that he wants to be good again, but the power of the dark side (the emperor's power) will kill him should he ever switch. So out of fear he MUST obey his master as it is "too late" for him to turn back now. Much like the slave chips that exploded should you try to flee on Tattoine, Vader's suit was used by the emperor to contain his power and also inflict pain upon Vader to keep him in line. A fearful slave, once again. Only at the end, when he sets his fear aside to save his son does he kill the emperor. Knowing but not caring that he'll die in the process. Selfless even unto death, as a Jedi is to be. As Luke was in Empire.
I think this ties in very well to Anakin’s betrayal where he truly believes, after disarming Windu, that he has no choice but to go the dark side and let it guide him. And also, that, as Yoda said that once you start down the path, forever will it dominate your destiny
When Vader said "You don't know the power of the Dark Side. I *must* obey my master." I never got anything but "I can't escape it as it's all consuming". It applied its grip when he slew the Tusken village and it never let go. Once he pledged himself to Sidious, that grip pulled him down further and further to the point where he believes there's no escaping it. As for Obi-Wan's "He's more machine now than man, twisted and evil." I get the sense he was referring to when they fought on the Death Star, as well as learning what the Force was able to explain in a sense. I always felt that when Obi-Wan went into exile, he was practically forbidden to use the Force outside his mediations. The comment Vader makes; "You're skills are weak, old man!" implies Obi-Wan rarely did anything during those 19 years between Revenge and ANH. That's how I always interpreted the lines.
I don't know about the whole "not using the Force" thing. I mean, Obi-Wan managed to cut down Maul in like six seconds, a mere two or three years before A New Hope. That doesn't strike me as someone who's barely used the Force.
Luke and Vader are so different in Episode 6 than when we first meet them in the same movie together (albeit with no F2F interaction) in Ep 4. In ROTJ, Vader seems so much more relatable in some scenes even before he turns on the Emperor to save Luke. Of course, these characters’ differences are both products of how son and father dealt with having found out about their familial ties, especially given how both men have their own, mutually incompatible missions that will ultimately force them into direct confrontation. Top-notch story throughout the first six installments of the Skywalker saga! 🏆
Kenobi, Yoda, Vader, and the Emperor are all 100% convinced it’s impossible to turn back from the Dark Side. Luke is the ONLY one who believes it’s possible.
I actually always thought, since the first time I ever watched ROTJ, there must have been a time when Obi Wan tried, somehow, to bring him back, it just made sense by Vader's own lines, but of course I didn't give it much thought since it was unlikely we would ever see such thing on tv. Glad I was mistaken, at least by the looks of this show
Yeah, I added an isolated comment here too. But Obi-Wan was trying to convince Anakin to leave his dark path before and during their fight. He even at one point toward the end of their fight says, "Then you truly are lost." He was hoping to sway Anakin from his path rather than have to fight/kill him.
@@treystephens6166 In a way, yes. But he actually went to Mustafar, just like Yoda told him to, to confront him, not to bring him back. Which was actually the reason Luke went to Vader in ROTJ
@@nickolasoriano1143 I went into more detail in my original comment by itself. But Obi-Wan doesn't WANT to fight /kill Anakin. He basically steels himself to do so once it's clear Anakin won't be swayed (and Anakin gives ZERO indications to Obi-Wan that he'll stray from his dark path.
@@theroyalmediator2658 Well, that makes sense too. Maybe in the show Obi Wan, when he encounters Vader that is, suddenly has hopes on Anakin and tries once more to steer him back to the light; and then, of course, he ultimately ends up with the line "he's more machine now than man". Besides, I think there's a difference between arriving unannounced and telling him with dissapointment the path he chose is wrong compared to approaching him with hope, like Luke did
I tend to associate the "Obi-wan once tried that too" bit to be referring to their encounter on Mustafar, where Obi-wan spends most of the prefight dialogue trying to convince Anakin to stop what he's doing and return to the Light Side.
This scene, this fantastic father & son moment, is absolutely one of the best moments in the whole saga. Vader expects Luke to pretty much be the same as last they fought at Cloud City but realizes his son has matured & advanced a lot in that year, & you can tell by his tone of voice that he is impressed. And might be also why he is unusually tolerant when Luke calls him back, calling him by his real name & all that. It is subconsciously, but I bet Luke reminds him of the Jedi he once was, or rather what he originally strived to be but failed to become. Ever since I was a kid I have always been puzzled by Vader's line; "Obi-Wan once thought as you do." I always wondered WHAT & WHEN he was referring to. Because it sure wasn't in ANH. Much later, when the Prequels all came along, it still wasn't enough. Yes, Obi does try to talk some kind of reason with Anakin at first on Mustafar but that still never fitted that line in ROTJ. What's so brilliant about that line is that you can interpret it in several ways. Vader is referring to a thought, one that Luke & Obi shares according to Vader. What is the thought? I must admit, I have thought about it but not much, the theory that Thor here has. That Vader talks strictly & only about the Dark Side, that the thought is that both Obi & Luke simply don't understand the Dark Side. But that is not really how I interpreted it. Vader is, after all, replying to a suggestion, a begging, on Luke's part. Luke is asking his father to just abandon all this crazy Dark Side stuff & come with him instead. Mark delivered his line so perfectly, you can tell that Luke is absolutely willing to help his father in any way, even protect him from the rest of the Rebellion if he must, only if it means they can together walk away from this. When Vader responds with our now quite famous line to Luke's plead we must remember what this movie is about. It's about Anakin's redemption & the one that helps him get to that point, that bravery to break free from his Dark Side slavery, is Luke. Also, listen to how James delivers his lines. When Vader answers "Obi-Wan once thought as you do." his voice is very emotional & full of regret. To me, combined with the story between these two & the outcome of it, Anakin is right now very present in Vader & his reply is an answer to Luke's plea to leave the Dark Side. And, for me, his words are describing a time when he has heard the SAME plea before! And I dare to bet money on that the upcoming show will finally show us what Vader is talking about. Luke reminds him of a time when Obi, despite everything, was still begging him to turn to the Light. Luke's plea makes him emotional because it reminds him of Obi & now Luke does the same thing. Now, Vader follows this up with a much harsher tone & also turns physically to face Luke again, & tells him that he doesn't know the power of the Dark Side & all that. Vader's two lines are connected, indeed, but are they necessarily about the exact same thing? According to Thor here they are. I say they are not. Or that it's not set in stone. I believe that "Obi-Wan once thought as you do", much softer spoken, obviously emotional, is a response to that Luke reminds him of a specific time when Obi asked him the exact same thing. Why else would he even say those words? He could just have skipped right to the follow-up line, "You don't know the power of the Dark Side! I must obey my Master!" But he didn't just skip to the words that would shut Luke up. First he has a flashback. And I believe it is a memory. A memory of Obi that Luke now copies, hence why he has the flashback. Then current reality kicks in & he tells Luke that he doesn't understand the Dark Side & that he can't disobey Sidious, hence the harsher tone & body language. I am not at all ruling out the possibility that Vader is saying here that Luke has it all wrong about the Dark Side as Obi did & that is what this whole conversation is about. But I think Vader's lines suggests he jumps between different thoughts, memories & emotions. It could just be one thought but how it's all played out presently, & far more importantly what this leads into as the film goes on, I think Vader is referring to TWO things, not just that Luke has the wrong idea of the Dark Side. Luke reminded him of Obi at a certain time, a moment we have yet to see because ANH nor the Prequels did. I have always felt, even decades prior to the Prequels, that there was something more here, a certain moment in time. And since Vader is so unspecific it can help justify the Kenobi show &, actually, not break canon even if many fear it will. That is all up to personal interpretation. In the final end, though; When George & Kasdan wrote this scene & decided what Luke & Vader was gonna say to each other, there never was any idea of actually telling the story in detail of what might have happened between Ep 3 & 4. Even if George had his rough ideas & plans, we all know that he could originally think of something & later on change it. Leia was originally never Luke's sister BUT there was always a sister! Just an example of how things changed over time. And, for good or ill, we have the Special Editions. Let's just say, some changes were good, others horrible. But the point is that Lucas changed his mind many times over time. We don't know what his original idea about "Obi-Wan once thought as you do" actually means, except that he is referring to something that happened long before this moment. But nothing of when or what. So, if the Kenobi show does fill in this blank we shouldn't freak out. Nothing in either ANH or ROTJ, all of the OT, specifically states that Vader & Obi never met again between Ep 3 & 4. We all just assumed the first time we saw ANH that it had been decades last & when ROTS gave us that duel we again just assumed that was the only time. But no exact word in any dialogue says outright that it's impossible that they met in between. In fact, this line in ROTJ we are here focusing on, rather suggest there was more. Even as a small child, growing up with this, I always believed it was more than what the OT told us. And later I realized the Prequels didn't give the full answer either. For me, personally, I want that answer now. And if this Kenobi show doesn't show us once & for all what Vader was referring to then nothing ever will.
That's basically how I understood it. When Luke isn't bowing to the Emperor I believe it kinda impresses Vader and when Luke straight out throws his lightsaber away and would rather die than be like them, as he says in Empire, that is ultimately what awakens Anakin, or something like that anyhow
Exactly! Originally it was Luke that wanted to become a Jedi like his father. And one can perhaps argue that he fulfills that pledge, just in his own way since Luke resisted the Dark Side no matter what & in so doing was a better Jedi than his father. But the real interesting part here is that ROTJ ends with the father becoming a Jedi like his son! The actual title for Episode 6, Return of the Jedi, applies to them both. Luke represents the future Jedi as a whole (until Ruin Johnson came along 6 destroyed everything) & Anakin represents the individual Jedi that returns.
I would say that Obi-Wan is trying to convince Anakin that his dark path is the wrong one before and during their fight on Mustafar. Toward the end of their fight after Obi-Wan tells Anakin that Obi-Wan failed him, Obi-Wan says to Anakin, "Chancellor Palpatine is evil!" Anakin replies, "From my point of view the Jedi are evil!" And Obi-Wan concludes, "Then you truly are lost." Obi-Wan didn't WANT to fight/kill Anakin (which is also why he walks away while Anakin's on fire); Obi-Wan was HOPING Anakin would leave his dark path, but he steels himself to fight/kill Anakin since Anakin won't be swayed.
Obi-Wan still never tries to bring him back. Sure he doesn’t want to kill him but nowhere does he try to bring Anakin back. Anakin even says “you brought him here to kill me” to Padme and Obi-Wan does nothing to argue that. Earlier when Padme asks if Obi-Wan is going to kill Anakin he also doesn’t deny that he will.
Idk, if there's one thing the prequels conveyed quite clearly it's that the Jedi believed very staunchly that there was no saving someone from the dark side. It's probably more likely that George initially thought Obi Wan would try to save him rather than kill him immediately like what ended up playing out in the prequels. To me it would make more sense now that after his isolation and conversing with Qui Gon, Obi Wan would believe that he should try to save him. This would ultimately fail and he would become cynical again.
But I think your point just proves Thor’s point of view. Yes, the Jedi from the Prequel Era thought that there was no turning back once you fully commit to it, but they believed that you could let go of the feelings that feed the dark side (fear, anger and hate) before you turn. What Vader could have been trying to say is that Obi Wan used to think and tell him that it was possible to let go of his hate, which’s was what Luke was suggesting to him. Vader, however, disagreed
@@pedrorenault5335 Idk, that seems like a lot of speculation. Thor's point was they were wrong about the dark side in their teachings (at least according to Vader) but they seemed very zero tolerance about it. With Yoda even saying once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. It just seems way more likely to me that they are talking about leaving the dark side not the path that takes you to it.
I've thought the same thing! Especially since (from my point of view) that's what Vader is referring to, a plea from a loved one to go with them and leave the dark side behind. Since we never saw Obi-Wan do that but DID see Padme do it, it'd be a Special Edition change that would make sense and also help bring Padme into the story more at the end of the saga.
@@CommanderCourage Always found it weird how the OT barely mentions Padmé and yes, that would have been a great change that makes sense ! And super easy to do since it's Vader with his mask on and he has his back turned so no excuse to not change that line ! We need George to make another Special Edition haha
I think George Lucas just forgot to have Kenobi ask Vader to come back because he shifted the line to Padme because George can make mistakes too. Or maybe the part where Obi-Wan said he had failed Anakin and that Palpatine is evil was what Vader in episode 6 was referencing. Anyway didn't really need them to have a rematch but if it's done well then ok I'll accept it. But leaks about the plot with 3rd sister are horrendous!!! If true Kenobi will be ruined for anyone actually considering this Canon which probably won't include me...
I'm gonna feel sorry for all the Obi-Wan fans out there IF those leaks are true, but tbh i've lost alot of faith and optimism in Disney Star Wars since they meddled with Favreau & Filloni's BOBF, and rushed Grogu back to Din, ruining Boba's book and overall story arc. I'm like 100% sure Favreau was trying to deviate and tell a whole different story, by setting up Grogu to join Luke's academy. Kennedy (and Disney) have kept it to where Luke's story arc is all about making the samekind of failures as the Jedi, instead of him being a "modern Jedi" in every sense of the word, and taking the Jedi Order into a whole new way of following the ways of the force; All just to stay in line with the dull, inconsistent and extremely vague sequels. My optimism has since weaned now especially for the Mandoverse, at this point it's all just going to connect right upto the sequel trilogy.
Ah, this is the TS content that I love! Just want to point out that in the novelisation the emperor openly speculates that the long missing Jedi Master Yoda was the one to finish Luke's training...
I hope that in the clash between Kenobi and Darth Vader, Kenobi either cuts part or removes the top half of Vader’s helmet, exposing his eye or head from the nose up. ( so he can still breath clean air) Kenobi looks into Vader’s eyes and sees nothing but anger, hate, and pain, or just soulless eyes. It would be that moment when Obi Wan accepts that Anakin is gone and a stranger is wearing his friend’s face. That can really put more meaning when Kenobi said “He is more machine now than man. Twisted and evil”.
"You don't know the power of the dark side. I must obey my master!" In short, "Motherfucker can shoot lightning!" Always liked how much Vader still thinks about Kenobi. He faces him in A New Hope, and it's clear how much hatred he has for Kenobi and how much he has longed for revenge, and in both subsequent films he mentions his old master. I don't just think this is due to antagonism, but also a hidden respect and even a deep-seated longing for a time when he and Kenobi were still brothers. In ESB, he is almost disparaging of Kenobi, but also recognises the training he has given Luke. In RotJ, he seems saddened at the thought of his old master, and harbours doubts that maybe his old friend had been right all along. I truly believe the Anakin/Obi Wan dynamic is one of the most interesting parts of the Star Wars franchise. I feel the prequels did their best but the relationship got lost amidst the Padme/Anakin and Palpatine/Anakin connections, but Clone Wars took great strides in exploring their relationship. I don't believe it is canon anymore, though I may be wrong, but I love the old story of Obi Wan being present on the Second Death Star watching the duel between Luke and Vader, and when he saw Anakin abandon the dark side, he found him in the Netherworld of the Force after he died and taught him how to manifest as a ghost. I don't believe Anakin truly hated Obi Wan. I believe he projected his anger and hatred of himself onto Obi Wan as I believe Obi Wan had always been the ideal he strove for, and he always felt, despite his arrogance, inferior to his master who never wavered and was always so strong, composed and wise. I feel that after he killed Obi Wan, he had nowhere to project those feelings but on himself, and all that was left for Kenobi was a longing for the brotherhood they once shared. With no one left to blame, he finally had to look at himself and his own choices. This scene is so short, but the vulnerability in his voice when he mentions his old master is a touching moment, and really demonstrates the cracks in Vader's resolve and faith in the dark side by this point. It's almost as if he is saying, "Obi Wan once thought as you do, and I wish I had listened because now I'm trapped." Really great scene.
There’s a deep regret in Anakin by this point, even though he won’t admit it to himself; the dark side rejects regret. But still, the regret is there. He realizes he was a fool to turn, despite not admitting it to Luke or to himself, but he believes it’s simply too late and he might as well stick with it.
I believe Thors analysis is pretty accurate. Though those lines of dialogue are vague enough to be open to interpretation. The Kenobi show is going to have to work hard to get people to accept them having another or numerous encounters.
I liked the first episode of Kenobi, but the second episode started to make me have doubts. Not to mention the leaks that this is a bait and switch, I think the rest of the episodes are gonna be trash.
Nice interpretation. My butt was in the movie theater seat in 1983. And even then I felt like he meant that Obi-Wan tried to turn him at some point in the past.
I thought when old Ben said he was more machine than man, he was referring to when they met on the Death Star and he thought there was no more Anakin in him.
Since watching as a kid I thought this scene was about Luke saying "We pick our own destiny" and Vader replying "Your wrong, you can't change your destiny." This is why the Sidious says "Your fulfilling your destiny Anakin", trying to convince him his only choice is the dark path.
I've always read this scene as, "Obi-Wan once tried to make me change. But he didn't know how alluring the Dark side was to me then, and you don't know the power Palpatine has over me with it now. I have to obey him, whether I like it or not."
This is one instance where I don't agree with you. Your explanation of Vader's words mostly fits, but it doesn't explain Lucas's "original" intent, because that wasn't in fact what he originally intended regarding Anakin/Vader's backstory. From one of the late drafts of ROTJ: Obi-Wan speaking to Luke about Anakin: "I don't blame you for being angry. If I was wrong in what I did, it certainly wouldn't have been for the first time. You see, what happened to your father was my fault. Anakin was a good friend ... When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot. But I was amazed how strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong. My pride has had terrible consequences for the galaxy ... I also thought he could be turned back to the good side. It couldn't be done. He is more machine now than man. Twisted and evil ... To be a Jedi, Luke, you must confront and then go beyond the dark side - the side your father couldn't get past. Impatience is the easiest door - for you, like your father. Only, your father was seduced by what he found on the other side of the door, and you have held firm. You're no longer so reckless now, Luke. You are strong and patient. And now, you must face Darth Vader again! ... When your father left, he didn't know your mother was pregnant. Your mother and I knew he would find out eventually, but we wanted to keep you both as safe as possible, for as long as possible. " Much of this (if not all) made it into the ROTJ novelization, so it was still present in the script at a very late point. It guided a lot of fan thought for years leading up to the prequels and much of it was captured in the "original" backstory Lucas provided that was used in the first official Star Wars timeline book in the late 80s/early 90s and by authors the start of the EU. After the prequels, it was clear that this original backstory and timeline had been tossed by GL, but this is exactly what was set up in the dialogue that survived to the final cut of ROTJ. Your video presents a rationalized explanation of the prequel dialog's not fitting well in many places with the backstory presented in the OT, just as "the Force gave Leia visions of Padme" is a similar rationalization many fans have proposed to explain Leia's line to Luke when he asks about her real mother. Fans are doing the same now with this new Kenobi series to improve upon the rationalizations of the inconsistencies that we all had to make immediately after the prequels. The idea that "Kenobi and Vader had to meet again after Mustafar, because of Vader's line in ROTJ" isn't any less in line with GL's "original intent" for the saga than what you propose in this video, because just as with Vader's being Luke's father and Padme's dying when Leia was very young, Lucas's "original intent" was tossed for ideas he liked better at a later time. This time it isn't Lucas doing the tossing of earlier ideas, so to me, the real question (which you present) is as to whether or not this change breaks an individual's head canon, since it isn't a change by GL.
Honestly, anything after ANH is breaking the canon, considering it was supposed to be a standalone story. I agree to an extent though, and I am one of the people who absolutely hated the second episode of the show so far. I already know where it's going and it's shit.
@@camd4648 ESB is brilliant, though, because it breaks nothing. It's incredibly brilliant in how it not only seamlessly integrates with ANH, but it also reacts to ANH's reception by purposefully designing the story to unfold upon rewatching multiple times. It's really RotJ which breaks things apart, because Lucas decided to rework things to make everything fit into a single movie (instead of four more). The biggest and most consequential change was making (Anakin) Skywalker and Darth Vader the same person. In ANH and ESB, they were two different people. Darth Vader's name was always Darth Vader, and (Anakin) Skywalker was a Jedi warrior who Darth Vader killed, as well as Luke's adoptive father. Obi-Wan never lied to Luke, he just never bothered to mention that Luke's "father" was not actually his biological father. But if you stick to the original intended story of ESB, without the changes introduced by RotJ, you can see how perfectly it meshes with ANH. And it's absolutely brilliant. It now makes sense why Obi-Wan hid Luke with Skywalker's relatives, on some random fringe planet Vader has no knowledge of. It now makes sense that the Emperor has no idea that the "son of Skywalker" is related to Vader. It now makes sense that this is an inadvertent slip from the Emperor revealing the limits of his knowledge of the situation. It now makes sense that Vader sees this as a way for him to salvage the situation and that he's not in imminent danger of being remote force choked to death by the Emperor.
@@Xeno_Solarus It matters if you want to enjoy ESB in a really fun way, and appreciate it to the best degree. It also matters if you want to understand ESB and how it was perceived at the time.
I think everything in this half of RotJ regarding Luke and Vader is masterclass, 10/10. These movies aren't exactly known for their acting and writing, in fact both are mocked by the actors in A New Hope and Lucas didn't exactly write prose for the Prequel trilogy either. Yet the dialogue between Luke, Vader, and Palpatine gets me every damn time. And the absolute cherry on top is Vaders death scene with Luke in the hangar bay. All of what I mentioned being wrapped up in the amazing score of John Williams to really drive the emotional dagger right through your heart. Absolutely amazing
The biggest problem of a Vader vs Obi- Wan fight happening in the new series is that some previous lines in the original trilogy don’t make sense. When they meet on the first Death Star, Vader says “When we last met I was but the learner, now I am the master “. That line only makes sense if it is referring to their duel on Mustafar…
I always thought this was in reference to Revenge of the Sith when Obi Wan and Anakin fought. Obi Wan tried to give one last attempt to turn Anakin back to the light and failed.
I would really love to see this line given more context in the Kenobi series. Most people are hyped to see Vader and Kenobi physically clash in this series, and I’m definitely one of them. But I really want to see the inner conflict of Obi-Wan and Anakin, the dynamic of their relationship and the glimpses of Anakin we will see beneath Vaders mask. It would be similar to when Ahsoka fights Vader and is able to draw out Anakin for those few seconds before the dark side takes over again. I love moments like those when Anakin realizes that people are still fighting for who he use to be. Vader sharing a similar moment with Obi-Wan would highlight how Anakin still hopes he can be saved and still has love for his friends, but his fear of abandonment and his past actions always makes him conflicted. Combined with the Ahsoka moment, it would feel even more impactful in ROTJ when Luke refuses to give up on his father.
As a kid his body language told me he was telling Luke the dark side had swallowed him...and that the Emperor was so much stronger than him, if he didnt obey hed lose his life too. He realised hed run out of road. Hes almost warning Luke in a way.
Thor, thank you so much for pointing this out. For years I've had a very similar interpretation, and I thought it was odd that virtually everyone else assumed this was referring to some specific moment or event, despite no direct evidence pointing to the two of them meeting between Ep. 3 and 4 (excluding the Kenobi series now, of course, haha). I always took this as Vader reflecting on Obi-Wan's general outlook on life or his teachings; an IDEA that people can be redeemed, not some unseen attempt from the past.
This is definitely a valid interpretation I hadn't considered. Certainly that line from Return of the Jedi doesn't have to mean another potentially cannon breaking encounter between Vader and Kenobi in order for it to have meaning and impact in the present continuity. The line can stand well enough on its own. But in order for this new series to be more than just spectacle then it will need to tie into something more substantive than just another fight. Leaning into this line from Vader and having Obi-Wan attempt to redeem him in some fashion, I think, is the best way to accomplish this. It would not only give the series the real gravitas it needs to justify itself even existing but would be a significant bolster to making Vader's ultimate redemption an even richer journey. The way Vader says "Obi-Wan has taught you well" in Return of the Jedi (he also says this during their duel in Empire), I can't help but sense that he still holds some kind of respect for his old mentor and friend even after all this time and everything that happened between them. The importance and complexity of the Vader / Kenobi relationship can't be overstated. The Kenobi series needs to uniquely enrich some facet of that relationship in order to be successful.
I was writing a comment on how there couldn’t be a forgotten second fight between the two, how the duel in a new hope couldn’t be the third match between the two, and I came to a realization: NEVER does Vader say, “ah…I’ve waited so long for this REMACH!” He says: “we meet again, at last. When I left you I was but the learner, now I am the master.” He mentions when he left Kenobi’s side and turned, he mentions we meet again. Vague enough to work a rematch in there somewhere?
I really enjoyed this video, and it's very much in line with how I heard and perceived their conversations. I never realized anyone construed these lines to be associated with another meeting between the two before their last fight on the deathstar.
Another great video TS! As a kid, the dialogue here implied that Obi Wan and Vader had a confrontation; resulting in Vader staying Vader, Kenobi leaving till Episode IV. After Episode III, between Padme pleading with Anakin to come away with her and Obi Wan there, that sufficed as, “Obi Wan once thought as you do…” IMO, there’s room for a discussion of sorts in this new series.
That's a very good point you're making. I see now how Vader saying he sees Obi-Wan in Luke plain as day could be and ultimately was misconstrued into being another encounter between them in the Kenobi series.
"You don't know the power of the Dark Side. I must obey my master" - see, to me this was the first real sign that Vader actually feared the Emperor, but could not do anything about it due to how ridiculously powerful the Emperor was.
Enjoyed the quick dive. Just a thought, if I remember correctly, Anakin had already been christened Darth Vader when he and Obi-Wan battled on Mustafar, Obi-Wan trying to talk Anakin back from the dark side and admitting his failure to Anakin the whole time. Obi-Wan and Yoda watched Palpatine (Darth Sidious) christen Anakint on a security hologram in the Jedi Temple while discovering who killed the younglings. So Obi-Wan and Darth Vader did battle twice, thus the mostly machine commit in 'A New Hope'. Just my two-cents worth. Keep up the great work.
What I found wonderfully about this, is that it could be both, all the análisis presented here and the kids need I've seen in the comments could be true, but it can also be true that apart from that Obi wan could try to recover Anakin in the new series. I honestly hope is both, both would be great.
As of now only 3 of the 6 episodes of Obi Wan have been released. It’s so good. Especially the fear Obi has of Anakin now that he knows he’s alive 10 years later and is now this scary machine named Vader.
Honestly the beauty is that lines like that could be interpreted in multiple ways. Either from what you said or maybe what we’ll see in the Kenobi series.
When Vader said "Obi-wan once thought as you do", I think he was just using Obi-wan's name to disguise the fact that he's actually talking about Padme. She was the one telling Vader the exact same words that Luke is saying to him, ("There is good in you", "Come with me") while all Obi-wan did was pull out his lightsaber which caused Vader to fight him and be sliced up in the process.
Read a lot of comments arguing this way and that about which interpretation is correct, but yours by far makes the most sense. Given his undoubteed trauma over the death of Padme, I think it makes total sense that he used Obi-Wan as a stand in for saying 'Padme' or 'Your mother' once thought as you do. A theory which is given more weight by how heavy with emotion his voice becomes at that moment.
If they do have the fight and Obi Wan says something like “you are still but the learner”, it would make both this throwaway line from RotJ AND the line from ANH “when I left you, I was but the learner” make sense.
I never assumed that this line was implying another meeting between Vader & Obi-Wan. It wouldn't have been necessary for them to meet for Obi-Wan to hold on to hope that there was still good in him after he fell, but eventually let go of that hope.
My thought on any possible rematch between Vader and Kenobi is that it would be out of context. In A NEW HOPE, when Vader first gets the force impression of Obiwan, he says that it is a feeling he hasn't felt in a long time, almost like he forgot it existed, implying he thought Obiwan was dead.
If it wasn't a direct response to Luke telling him there's still good in him and he can come back to the light, I could be down with this idea. That said, a confrontation between Vader and Obi-Wan makes total sense. Vader should want to hunt him down and when Obi-Wan learns of Anakins fate becoming Vader, after his failure, he should make an effort to save him if confronted by Vader, especially since the last thing Padme told Obi-Wan that there's still good in Anakin.
I’d love to hear what George thinks about this series. Not because I want him to pick it apart or anything, but I’d love to hear his honest opinion on the story Deborah Chow has created. Some sort of a one-on-one interview between the two could be really cool.
I'd love to hear George's candid thoughts on the Disney era of Star Wars. Not because I just want him to tear it apart, but because I'd just love to know what he really and truly thinks about it; what parts he might like and agree with.. and which he doesn't or would think don't work or fit with his ideas.
@@thorskywalker I wholeheartedly agree. I honestly think there’s a good amount of things on either side, both praise and criticism. I’m sure he’s proud of people carrying his legacy in all of these ways and in all these stories, but I’m wondering to what extent he still feels that sense of ownership, and doesn’t want to see his “property” mistreated. Regardless, a “no-holds-barred” sort of commentary from George would be super cool.
An interesting point of view, I'm sure that several people are asking themselves the same question, I remember that Padme's last words to Obi-Wan were that there was still good in him, I thought it would add motivation to Obi-Wan to try to bring him back to the good side at some point.
“When I left you I was but the learner, now I am the master” Disney is going to make that seem like Vader was still learning the dark side when he fights Kenobi in this series
No, he is explicitly talking about Mustafar, that is where he officially left Obi-Wan. Before things were still not entirely certain. It is different from "When I last saw you".
Vader's lines are delivered with long pauses and stares away from Luke to indicate his conflict, which is a stark contrast to Obi-wan's present belief that Anakin is truly dead (which Luke reiterates at the end of the conversation). So, yes, I do take that line to mean that Obi-wan once hoped that Vader would turn away from the dark side. However, I see no reason this could not refer to their exchange on Mustafar before the battle, where Obi-wan pleads his case and tells Anakin that his hatred was destroying him and driving Padme away. When Vader follows up by saying, "You don't know the power of the dark side," it suggests that he sees Luke as a younger Obi-wan, more naive than Obi-wan is presently.
I’ve always been curious about Darth Vaders use of language compared to how Anakin talked. Vader seems more “educated” in terms of proper grammar where as Anakin was more loose with words. Anyone else ever wonder about that?
I'd always assumed (based on the ROTJ line in question) that at one point Obi-Wan had at least expressed to Vader that he could return to the light. I like the juxtaposition of that previous hope with Obi-Wan having given up entirely on him later in life.
I always assumed by those two lines and the line that Vader says, "You should not have come back", that they must have met again, even if just once more
I completely agree with yo 100%. Your interpretation is as mine and also I believe it makes the story better that way. I don't have Disney so will have to wait for the series to come out on DVD but I was a little disappointed that they are talking about Vader being in it. Hopefully it is merely incidental and they do not try to construct a meeting between the two. What makes that scene in A New Hope so epic is the fact they haven't seen each other in so long, and that Vader might even believe Obi-Wan is dead already. I hope this new series does not destroy that dramatic tension.
The line about how "Obi-Wan once thought as you do" could be referring to things Obi-Wan said during the duel on Mustafar, especially after Vader had years to ponder those words. However, it seems more likely that it will be covered in the series. Just seeing Vader with legs will explain the "more machine now than man" since mechanical prosthetics aren't unusual even during the Clone Wars.
I always thought the Vader in empire was so different from the Vader we see in ROTJ. The man was ready to destroy Luke and then in the next movie he’s emotionally conflicted and wavering? That’s a bridge that really needs to be explored someday.
I heard someone discuss this (I think it was Star Wars Theory). He was stating that he thought that Luke basically jumping off a cliff rather than joining Vader's side made Vader question things some. Anakin was all about his loved ones (friends/family) and here (obviously as Vader) his son would basically rather die than travel down the dark path with him (even to take down the Emperor).
After Luke gets rescued, Vader still tries to plea with him through the force before the Falcon jumps to lightspeed. We even see a little conflict in Vader when he looks away then looks back out in space.
He has conflict in empire after the confrontation and also you can notice how he says "he is just a boy" when the emperor suggests to turn him to the dark side it doesn't sound arrogant but more sad. Like he doesn't want Luke's life to be ruined the same way that his was
Vader was negotiating with Luke at the end of ESB, yes he told Luke "join me and we can rule the galaxy as father and son" after cutting off Luke's hand, Luke's options were take his fathers hand or a long drop, Vader was trying to talk him into coming back onto safe ground, he may have been willing to kill Luke if he absolutely had to, but he most certainly did not want to, sure Luke was stronger than Vader expected but ESB Luke never stood a chance against ESB Vader, so Vader gave him a demonstration of the power of the dark side, gave him a beating, but nothing too serious (by Star Wars standards) then revealed he was Luke's father, Anakin probably thought knowing that he had a father who wanted him would have made him happy at that sort of age, so why would it not have worked for his son? In Return of the Jedi Vader had seen that his son was willing to trust The Force, would choose potentially a several mile fall to his near certain death, over a fall to the dark side, he knew with Luke's help he could defeat the Emperor, but he also knew Luke would not willingly help him to do it, he did not want to kill his son, sure he was willing to give Luke a beating "for his own good" (at least from Vader's perspective) but not watch him be tortured or killed, basically you had Vader fighting Anakin, the last time that happened Anakin's fear over loosing his wife was a serious weekness and allowed Vader to win, this time love for and a need to protect all that was left of Padmé, their children gave Anakin the strength to defeat Vader. As I view it Luke was Anakin's hope, Anakin had been without hope since (as far as he knows) Vader killed Padmé, when he found he had a son it probably gave him hope that he could be something other than Palpertine's enforcer, he desperately needed a new reason to have hope, if Luke was alive maybe he could learn what he needed to kill the Emperor, to bring balance to the force, to achieve the "chosen one" prophecy, and maybe just maybe Anakin could have a little happiness after 2 decades of suffering.
@@terryforsdyke306 well said! All of these are excellent examples of how the seeds of conflict were sown at the end of ESB. I always thought that the dialogue between Vader and Sidius (when talking about the son of Anakin turning) was awesome because the first time you watch it, when Vader says, “but he’s just a boy” it comes across as the villain implying the protagonist is weak and unworthy. Once we learn that Vader is Anakin and Luke is his son, suddenly that line hits different - much more like a father being concerned for his son.
After seeing the prequels when Luke does the flip up on the bridge he stands above Vader and now has The high ground and then.. Obi-Wan has taught you well. Love it
And his answer to, "I will not turn, and you'll be forced to kill me..." was, "if that is your destiny...", suggesting that even as a sith he was still loyal to the will of the force and that anything that is considered "good" or "bad" may have a different meaning in the great scheme of things. Perhaps he even spoke with Qui-gon...would explain how he became a force ghost.
I always took this scene one step further then this in that Vader is even trying to convince himself that what he is saying is true but yet a small part still believes his old teaching like Luke.
Actually, I feel like the whole high ground scene was a reference to Vader saying "Obi-Wan has taught you well" since Luke had the high ground. Just like poetry, it rhymes.
I like this short video format. I think people today see WAY TOO MUCH in those old movies... they were (and still are) very simple stories. You have to remember, Jorge Lucas was making shit up as he went along. Literally, he was creating new way of making special effects, he was changing the way movies were made... As much as I love those old movies, I never believed for a second that Vader was always going to be Luke's father... nor did I believe Leia was his sister. And as brilliant as these ideas turned out to be in the long run, I'm pretty sure they came up after the first movie was released.
Good points. Some of the things that Obi-Wan said on Mustafar are congruent with this. “Chancellor Palpatine is Evil” is one of them. He’s trying to convince him he’s wrong. So I don’t think this ROTJ line in itself opens or closes the door on them having had a second fight. Through all of the dialogue Obi wan has about and with Vader in the OT, there’s wiggle room for interpretation and as long as them fighting in the series makes sense, it’s not going to take away from anything in the OT and I say this as an older dude who grew up with only the OT. So I don’t like it messed with. I don’t think this show will do that.
I was also thinking that a rematch MIGHT happen, and it wouldn’t be inconsistent. There could be several duels, in fact, and it wouldn’t really matter. The line “when I left you I was but the learner, now I am the master” doesn’t have to mean “when we last fought”, but could just be when they first divided on mustafar. That being said, it would have to be really early on after the whole thing, because Vader says he hasn’t felt Obi-Wan’s presence in a long time, long enough to think he was gone forever.
I grew up in the mid 70's and 80's. Star Wars was a big part of that time of my life and continues to be so. My recollection about Vader and Kenobi was that Lucas had stated that the two had dueled near a volcano, with Vader being beaten by Kenobi and falling into the lava. Kenobi had been trying to save Anakin Skywalker and redeem him during that duel. That isn't what is presented in Revenge of the Sith, but that's not surprising given how unfaithful to the narrative Lucas became once the Prequels went into production (this faithlessness to the original series is the root of most of the dislike that many fans had of the Prequels). I feel like shows like The Clone Wars and Rebels serve two purposes: they make money for the owner of that Intellectual Property, but they also can serve to rehabilitate characters and stories that the films failed to properly convey. The Clone Wars takes Anakin Skywalker who, in the films, readily agrees to murder dozens of defenseless children in their school, and makes that character someone you actually care about. I feel like the Obi-Wan Kenobi show is meant to continue that trend. It's not so much a retcon as it is polishing the story that Lucas put forward in the Prequels. I do feel like there will be a point where Obi-Wan tries to appeal to the goodness in Vader. I feel like Padme's last words to Obi-Wan foreshadow that to a degree. It will be interesting to see how that goes. I feel like the one thing you may have overlooked with regards to Vader's motivation for saving Luke is that this is foreshadowed in Empire when Vader, who has been told to kill Luke, counters with the possibility of Luke being turned to the Dark Side. That, to me, is where Vader starts to show that there is something good in him and it's also reflected by something Vader *doesn't* do at the end of Empire. Throughout that film *every* time an Imperial officer fails Vader, they die. They get force choked to death. Yet when Piett assures Vader that the Millenium Falcon won't be able to escape only to see the ship enter Hyperspace, Vader lets Piett live. This is another indicator that the seeds of Vader's goodness are growing. He is okay with Luke escaping because it means he won't have to turn his son over to Palpatine.
Not quite. You need to take this ROTJ line in context of 1983. The ROTJ novelization: “When I saw what had become of him, I tried to dissuade him, to draw him back from the dark side. We fought… your father fell into a molten pit” Now Lucas retconned this idea (edited out of the final script) by having Obi go to only kill Anakin… and on the moment of ROTJ, Luke is trying to bring Vader back…. Not a situation of dark vs light theory, so the stronger connection is with the idea that Obi once tried to bring Vader back. The final fix in the upcoming show: Obi fights Vader once before knowing who he is by the end of the fight. They get separated. Time passes, another fight - this time Obi knows who it is and has pity, tries to bring him back. Vader claims dark side is stronger, Obi beats him, leaves with a quip “you still have much to learn”…. Now the “I was but the learner now I am the master” can still work.
Vader may not be one of the most talkative villains, but the little he says has a hidden meaning. Things around him are rarely as simple as they seem at first glance.
In my opinion Vader is talking about when he and Obi-Wan played "the floor is lava" on Mustafar, a rematch would just hurt the story, just like it was stupid to bring Maul back (imo)
Obviously it's a massive stretch to bring maul back, but I think it hurts the permanence of death and the lore in the canon rather than the story. Bringing maul back did nothing to the story. Maul was not a character before they brought him back. They didn't ruin his arc because he didn't have one. Obi wan defeating him was important but not because Obi wan had a dynamic with maul. Then clone wars happened and they did maul justice, giving him amazing characterization. The new duel between Vader and Obi wan is different in that you can argue it hurts the story and character dynamics.
It makes me think about how SLJ is up for returning, despite asking to die in an awesome way in RotS, which is exactly what we got. They did a great job giving real character to Maul but it does indeed mean anyone can survive what is supposed to kill them now and it can harm the story.
What about the line in A New Hope when Obi-wan meets Vader, and Vader says "we meet again at last. The circle in now complete. When I left you I was but the learner, now I am the master."
I always interpreted the emphasis of the word "must" to mean something between an addiction and a threat from the emperor. Vader's cornered from every angle on this one, and that's all he can say about it. I _must_ obey.
That is waht I wrote in your video a few month ago. When you released the video about talking the new kenobi v Vader fight. I wrote that Kenobi expressed that Vader is more a machine than a man. That for me meant that they had another fight.
Well, Obi-Wan says that line about being "more machine now than man" in Return of the Jedi, after he's encountered him in A New Hope and seen what he's become there. In other words, that could easily be when he learned what Vader had truly become, not in some other "in-between" duel.
I like the idea of the Kenobi show addressing such a line and it is leading in that direction. Other interesting comments here are about: " you don't know the power of the dark side, I must obey my master" has an entirely different meaning to me. Anakin's arc has been by far the most compelling of the Skywalker saga. I always felt the inner turmoil inside of Anakin. He was more a slave to himself than the Emperor. His Master being lust for power. Revenge of the Sith really portrays this in him where he was afriad to lose Padme like he lost his mother and became obsessed withing learning this power that Palpatine seduced him with. He always wanted more and often said "I am not the Jedi I should be" think of some one with an addiction. Anakin and Vader both were addicted to power. He even wanted his son to join him and overthrow the Emperor at one point.
From the beginning I thought the line meant what it sounds like. That obi wan tried to sway him back from the dark…when the prequels came out I assumed that would be addressed in their duel but obi wan didn’t even try to sway him. I do think them paying off this line will have the big emotional impact this show needs.
I like and agree with a lot of what I’m reading in here, especially when Vader says it it too late for him and that he must obey Sideous because of the power of the dark side. I had thought that it was perhaps literally the power of the dark side that was keeping him alive, that he had to hang on to his hatred and anger to make the suit function well enough to support life. If this was true, then Vader knew all along that his turning back to the light was a suicide mission.
![Why The Jedi In The Temple Lost So Quickly [ORDER 66] - Star Wars Explained](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/x9hwHkfkQvw/mqdefault.jpg)
![Summer Walker - Heart Of A Woman [Official Lyric Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/SFddctbZzw8/mqdefault.jpg)
When Vader says to Luke "It is too late for me, son." You can tell by the tone of his voice that he feels so defeated.
Yeah that was Anakin speaking, he was warning his son about resisting
@@WildWeavile why couldn’t Luke make a deal with the Emperor to let Vader live?
@@treystephens6166 Because the emperor saw Vader as a tool to get Luke since Vader himself reached a peak in power and couldn't break the ceiling due to getting crippled by kenobi
@@WildWeavile Lord Vader was still very useful though in Law Enforcement.
Exactly!
When Vader says “I MUST obey my master” I always interpreted that as the dark side getting a hold of you in a way that is beyond reason. I felt it gave the vibe of “I couldn’t leave even if I wanted to”. Which to me meant he is in the peak of abusive relationships. He is fetching his replacement for his master and that replacement happens to be his son. Pretty dark.
Love these videos. Definitely make more.
That's absolutely what he's saying. It just turned out that Vader could rebel after all, but at the cost of the life and power he'd been holding onto for all those years.
Anakin has been in an abusive relationship with the Sidious for decades. Raised as a slave by a single slave mother, no father figure, it's no surprise he latched on to a strong male role model (Sidious) even if he was a piece of shit. When he goes to turn his own son over to that same abuser, it is a very dark concept, but it shows just how far into being an enabler Anakin is.
It showed even more powerfully when Sidious is torturing Luke with force lightning--any well-adjusted father would have been at Sidious' throat the moment he zapped Luke. For Anakin, though, it took many seconds to overcome that lifetime of conditioning and finally come to his son's rescue.
Because the Dark Side is addictive. An addict *can* fight his urges, any time in their life. Sidious is pretty much controlling Vader the same way a drug lord controls their minions: intoxication and dependency plus intimidation.
@@庫倫亞利克 Yes. Anakin didn't get taught self-control by his mother. If he'd been trained by the Jedi from an early age, it would have made all the difference.
“You do not leave the Dark Side but as a corpse.” In my head, I could hear that sentence , or something close to it, spoken by James Earl Jones.
Oh man, Thor, I’m glad you brought this up. I noticed something after Revenge of the Sith. Remember right before their fight on Mustafar, Anakin and Obi-Wan are talking. Obi-Wan says, “You have allowed this dark lord to twist your mind until now… until now you have become the very thing you swore to destroy.” Anakin then responds, “Don’t lecture me Obi-Wan. I see through the lies of the Jedi. [and this is the key line] I don’t fear the dark side as you do.” This is a direct foreshadowing of when Vader says to Luke, “Obi-Wan once thought as you do. You don’t know the power of the dark side. I must obey my master.” In other words, that whole time Vader has his back to Luke, he’s thinking about Obi-Wan and, as Luke is pleading with him to come back to the light, Vader simply dismisses Luke because he thinks he just fears the dark side. He’s just like his master, Obi-Wan, who also feared the dark side. Just an observation I had recently.
Spot on observation and very well said. 🙏
Yep. There’s no need to shoehorn in an argument or fight between Vader and Obi-Wan in between Episodes III and IV. Revenge of the Sith has the “Obi-Wan once thought as you” line covered, because of course, Obi-Wan didn’t just land on Mustafar and immediately come at Vader. Obi-Wan had to hear it from the Tauntaun’s mouth that Anakin had indeed fallen to the Dark Side. 💀
@@austintrousdale2397 Then you are lost. Reasoning with Anakin, defending himself from Anakin and even fighting past a room full of corpses, it took until then to realise there was no hope there.
Really good observation. It makes a lot of sense. Thanks for sharing!
@@austintrousdale2397 - tauntaun's mouth? Huh? He saw the video footage of Anakin killing younglings, that's how he knew. But my question is if there never was another meeting then how did Obi Wan know Anakin was "more machine now than man"? He saw it for himself at some point
"You don't know the power of the dark side; I must obey my master." I sort of take this as a different interpretation than most people. Not that Vader was saying the enticement of the dark side was too powerful to resist, but rather that his master was too powerful to fight against. In a sense, when he said, "You don't know the power of the dark side", he wasn't talking about the power inside of himself, but rather the power of Sidious. Vader doesn't have the power, doesn't have the courage to oppose the Emperor, and thus he "must" obey him. Even Vader is a slave himself.
If that's the case when he says "obi wan once thought as you do" what would he be referring to? Underestimating sith instead of the dark side as a whole?
For me, it’s kind of all 3 interpretations in one. Like Vader is saying that Obi Wan once thought that He could be turned but he was wrong, cause he didn’t know how strong the dark side’s hold can be on someone. That it fully corrupts and enslaves people. And the only one that has complete mastery of that power is Darth Sidious himself thus there is no point in even thinking to oppose him.
And of course there is all the different instances of Vader trying to gather people to kill Sidious ala the whole force unleashed story, or when he tells Luke "Luke, you can destroy the emperor. He has for-seen this. It is your destiny. Join me and together, we can rule the galaxy as father and son." So your take on that line has merit. Vader knew he would never be powerful enough to kill Palpatine alone.
And Anakin began His life AS a slave on Tatooine. He hadn't fully escaped that mentality until faced with losing His son for real.
Remember Vader had a dream that Luke and him ran away but the Empire finds them. Palpatine kills Luke in front of Vader and he is helpless, unable to stop it. Also, from the Vader comics, this comes after Vader's "duel" with Palpatine. Vader realizes how strong Palpatine is on Exogel when Sideous is able to stand next to the crystal without it having any effect. OTOH Vader experiences extreme pain and suffering, he realizes how strong his master is at this point.
When Vader says, "You don't know the power of the dark side," it's more of a warning than a threat at this point.
Exactly
“Obi Wan has taught you well,” he says, as Luke has the high ground.
Wow great point. I never put that together from the 2 movies !!
Yep, and he didn't make the same mistake in trying to leap over him did he, great point sir
@@thecarrotmonster8827 he boomeranged his saber instead.
@@tripwire1346 Not mine originally, in all fairness.
Good point!!!
On recent rewatches of RotJ, I've interpreted that conversation as Anakin subtly trying to warn Luke about Palpatine. That Palpatine and the Dark Side were more powerful and seductive than he knew Luke was anticipating. Also, when Vader/Anakin responds to Luke's "There is still good in you, I know it," with "It is too late for me, son," I took it as Anakin saying that even if Luke succeeded in turning him back to the Light, Palpatine had too much power over him - he couldn't leave. He sounded regretful and there was a sort of implied significance (like a warning) in every line he spoke.
There's also the fact that the rebel alliance would demand his head for his crimes. There really was no way Vader could live even if he willingly stepped away from the darkness and leave the Empire behind.
And regardless of the rebellion’s judgement, the evil he had committed could never be undone, and the weight of his sins would stain his soul forever. There was really no going back; only an opportunity to save the last bit of good left in his life one final time.
@@purpleemerald5299 much like what befell Ulic Qul Droma and his self imposed exile, he felt great shame in what he had done at Exar Kuns side and cut himself off from the Force and Galaxy at large...until Nomi Sunrider brought her daughter to him to train.
I love that scene, always have. Very moving. And Vader says towards the end "It is too late for me, son". At right at the very end Luke says "Then my father is truly dead". Just love it!
Same. Amazing scene
Vaders death hits harder tho.
“Tell your sister you were right.”.
“Father, I won’t leave you.”
Such a beautiful, heartbreaking scene.
Luke is such a good son and a great character
Wow, I didn't expect another Star Wars fan here 😉
@@yourstruly4817 Same💯💯💯.
This is the way.
That's my Luke Skywalker. Not Jake.
I think it's interesting the impact of Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru had on Luke is so frequently not even acknowledged. Yes, there was typical 'I'm ready to start life' frustration in New Hope, but he was safe to express that; had already given an extra year because they needed him. He was secure in their affection even so, just as they were secure in his. I've always thought the reason Luke could and did believe there was *good* left in Vader was based on his Uncle and Aunt's parenting. He had a grounding in unconditional love that so many Jedi do not - despite this being a basis of how they are to live - not surprising since Jedi were taken from parents / family so young. He didn't have that empty place from childhood needing to be filled that a dark side master can find an original toe-hold in and exploit. Anakin was desperate for the security of a parent that wasn't enslaved and therefore could be sold away from him in a heartbeat, and so very vulnerable. Luke was not. The contrast is why I don't "hate" Phantom Menace or the prequels and can see, despite typical human imperfection and down the road storylines, Luke as a Hero. Anakin wanted to be a Hero, it's a repeated theme for him, but despite similar guidance from Obi-Wan & Yode, responded differently internally, in his heart. Of course, Luke was grown when he met the force and teachers and Ready to step beyond the nest and parents. That's my quick dive after enjoying Yours! :grin:
I too think Owen and Beru don't get nearly the credit they deserve. Luke was loved, guarded, and was taught discipline and the value of hard work (patience came later).
Brilliant idea - No Jedi can be a hero, because the Jedi have no real love and no real family; they are not truly members of society. For all their abilities, they are lacking. They avoid love and family because they fear the vulnerability, the risk that could lead to the dark side. It's the Jedi's fear (and denial of that fear) which makes them falter in the face of the dark side.
But Luke had family, and love. Those are the missing ingredients of a hero - they give someone the vulnerability, and strength, to face the darkness and prevail. Luke had the best of both worlds and it's what sets him apart.
I really really like that thinking.
I have actually mentioned this a few times on some other RUclips channels. Luke is closer to what the Force means for the Jedis to be than they were.
Think about what we know of the Force from Yoda. Life creates it and makes it grow. It binds all beings together. Get the Jedi are not creating life because they're not meant to create attachments. They are ultimately betraying the nature of the Force.
Eventually the Force creates a being, Anakin, Who proves all of their points wrong. He does have attachments and often these attachments are a source of strength for him. He creates life during his marriage with his wife. But instead of seeing the mirror, the Force is holding up to them revealing all of their shortcomings, the Jedi doubled down on their ridiculous precepts. The greatest of them did not come to them as an infant, but they keep on destroying families throughout the Galaxy to fill their ranks by taking babies. Anakin's connections consistently lead them to where they need to be in the galaxy, yet they continue to insist that attachments are inappropriate.
What if they embraced him? What if they'd seen that? In fact, they don't need to take babies or deny attachments? Palpatine would have had a much harder time leading to their destruction. After all, it was their aloofness from the galaxy, and the suspicion they're taking infants and toddlers naturally generated, which led to them having so few supporters when they finally fell. Palpatine might have in fact found himself forced to remain in the shadows.
But Yoda and Obi-Wan learn absolutely nothing from this. They deceive Luke, and either didn't intend to tell him that Vader was his father until after he committed an act of patricide, or thought that once Luke was firmly trained his attachment to his biological parents wouldn't matter anymore. Fortunately, Luke had been raised by good moral people. He, like the Galaxy as a whole, understood how absolutely intolerable patricide was. If he had done with the Jed I had wanted, Luke would have been broken. They simply would have replaced one Sith Lord with another.
I think that it is seeing Luke's succeed in redeeming his father that taught Yoda this lesson, that their detachment was never the will of the Force. Why else would he have criticized Luke so greatly in "The Last Jedi"? Yoda knows that Luke ultimately failed because he forgot the lessons he learned from his uncle and aunt. He'd adopted the detachment of the Jedi, against the will of the Force, and had raised his emotionally damaged nephew -- who desperately needed to know he was wanted, loved, and accepted -- in a manner where Luke's single moment of darkness - when he was falsely tempted to kill Ben - destroyed. Ben. Had he stayed true to the man he was when he faced his father, he would have embraced his nephew, he would have raised Ben as his nephew and not as his apprentice. And Ben would have made a spectacular Jedi.
Of course, one could also argue that being a child soldier called Leia emotional and psychological trauma. Trauma which she then inflicted upon her son. She had lost so many people that she learned to hold them a bit distantly. But you cannot hold a child at a distance, not unless you want to ruin that child.
So one can really see Star Wars As a damning indictment against distanced parenting, I suppose. I guess there aren't any child psychologists or psychiatrists in a galaxy far far away.
Yes. This.
@@micheledeetlefs6041 You're onto something. I previously worked with a guy that worked on Season 1 of The Clone Wars so I used to mine his brain a lot. That idea of damaged relationships between father and son has always been present in Star Wars. It has always reflected George Lucas's strained relationship with his own real-life son.
Shorter, longer, they're all good videos.
I like your interpretation of Vader's dialog here! Particularly the idea that Vader started to see Luke as an alternate version of himself - the same teacher, but uncorrupted by the Dark Side.
I've always taken this exchange between Luke and Vader as cowardice on Vader's part.
To take a line from Gladiator, Maximus says to Commodus, "I think you have been afraid your whole life."
Fear is a path to the Dark Side. Vader was afraid to lose his mother and afraid to lose his wife. This opened him up to manipulation which the Emperor used against him. Now he is afraid of the Emperor. Him telling Luke that he wants to be good again, but the power of the dark side (the emperor's power) will kill him should he ever switch. So out of fear he MUST obey his master as it is "too late" for him to turn back now.
Much like the slave chips that exploded should you try to flee on Tattoine, Vader's suit was used by the emperor to contain his power and also inflict pain upon Vader to keep him in line. A fearful slave, once again.
Only at the end, when he sets his fear aside to save his son does he kill the emperor. Knowing but not caring that he'll die in the process. Selfless even unto death, as a Jedi is to be. As Luke was in Empire.
I think this ties in very well to Anakin’s betrayal where he truly believes, after disarming Windu, that he has no choice but to go the dark side and let it guide him.
And also, that, as Yoda said that once you start down the path, forever will it dominate your destiny
"What have I done?"
When Vader said "You don't know the power of the Dark Side. I *must* obey my master." I never got anything but "I can't escape it as it's all consuming". It applied its grip when he slew the Tusken village and it never let go. Once he pledged himself to Sidious, that grip pulled him down further and further to the point where he believes there's no escaping it.
As for Obi-Wan's "He's more machine now than man, twisted and evil." I get the sense he was referring to when they fought on the Death Star, as well as learning what the Force was able to explain in a sense. I always felt that when Obi-Wan went into exile, he was practically forbidden to use the Force outside his mediations. The comment Vader makes; "You're skills are weak, old man!" implies Obi-Wan rarely did anything during those 19 years between Revenge and ANH.
That's how I always interpreted the lines.
I don't know about the whole "not using the Force" thing. I mean, Obi-Wan managed to cut down Maul in like six seconds, a mere two or three years before A New Hope. That doesn't strike me as someone who's barely used the Force.
“ You're skills are weak, old man!"
Surrender your Star Wars Nerd card immediately.
Luke and Vader are so different in Episode 6 than when we first meet them in the same movie together (albeit with no F2F interaction) in Ep 4. In ROTJ, Vader seems so much more relatable in some scenes even before he turns on the Emperor to save Luke. Of course, these characters’ differences are both products of how son and father dealt with having found out about their familial ties, especially given how both men have their own, mutually incompatible missions that will ultimately force them into direct confrontation.
Top-notch story throughout the first six installments of the Skywalker saga! 🏆
Kenobi, Yoda, Vader, and the Emperor are all 100% convinced it’s impossible to turn back from the Dark Side. Luke is the ONLY one who believes it’s possible.
All the more reason what they did to Luke's character in TLJ was repulsive.
I actually always thought, since the first time I ever watched ROTJ, there must have been a time when Obi Wan tried, somehow, to bring him back, it just made sense by Vader's own lines, but of course I didn't give it much thought since it was unlikely we would ever see such thing on tv. Glad I was mistaken, at least by the looks of this show
Obi Wan did try in Episode III
Yeah, I added an isolated comment here too. But Obi-Wan was trying to convince Anakin to leave his dark path before and during their fight. He even at one point toward the end of their fight says, "Then you truly are lost." He was hoping to sway Anakin from his path rather than have to fight/kill him.
@@treystephens6166 In a way, yes. But he actually went to Mustafar, just like Yoda told him to, to confront him, not to bring him back. Which was actually the reason Luke went to Vader in ROTJ
@@nickolasoriano1143 I went into more detail in my original comment by itself. But Obi-Wan doesn't WANT to fight /kill Anakin. He basically steels himself to do so once it's clear Anakin won't be swayed (and Anakin gives ZERO indications to Obi-Wan that he'll stray from his dark path.
@@theroyalmediator2658 Well, that makes sense too. Maybe in the show Obi Wan, when he encounters Vader that is, suddenly has hopes on Anakin and tries once more to steer him back to the light; and then, of course, he ultimately ends up with the line "he's more machine now than man". Besides, I think there's a difference between arriving unannounced and telling him with dissapointment the path he chose is wrong compared to approaching him with hope, like Luke did
I tend to associate the "Obi-wan once tried that too" bit to be referring to their encounter on Mustafar, where Obi-wan spends most of the prefight dialogue trying to convince Anakin to stop what he's doing and return to the Light Side.
This scene, this fantastic father & son moment, is absolutely one of the best moments in the whole saga. Vader expects Luke to pretty much be the same as last they fought at Cloud City but realizes his son has matured & advanced a lot in that year, & you can tell by his tone of voice that he is impressed. And might be also why he is unusually tolerant when Luke calls him back, calling him by his real name & all that. It is subconsciously, but I bet Luke reminds him of the Jedi he once was, or rather what he originally strived to be but failed to become.
Ever since I was a kid I have always been puzzled by Vader's line; "Obi-Wan once thought as you do." I always wondered WHAT & WHEN he was referring to. Because it sure wasn't in ANH. Much later, when the Prequels all came along, it still wasn't enough. Yes, Obi does try to talk some kind of reason with Anakin at first on Mustafar but that still never fitted that line in ROTJ. What's so brilliant about that line is that you can interpret it in several ways. Vader is referring to a thought, one that Luke & Obi shares according to Vader. What is the thought? I must admit, I have thought about it but not much, the theory that Thor here has. That Vader talks strictly & only about the Dark Side, that the thought is that both Obi & Luke simply don't understand the Dark Side. But that is not really how I interpreted it.
Vader is, after all, replying to a suggestion, a begging, on Luke's part. Luke is asking his father to just abandon all this crazy Dark Side stuff & come with him instead. Mark delivered his line so perfectly, you can tell that Luke is absolutely willing to help his father in any way, even protect him from the rest of the Rebellion if he must, only if it means they can together walk away from this. When Vader responds with our now quite famous line to Luke's plead we must remember what this movie is about. It's about Anakin's redemption & the one that helps him get to that point, that bravery to break free from his Dark Side slavery, is Luke. Also, listen to how James delivers his lines. When Vader answers "Obi-Wan once thought as you do." his voice is very emotional & full of regret. To me, combined with the story between these two & the outcome of it, Anakin is right now very present in Vader & his reply is an answer to Luke's plea to leave the Dark Side. And, for me, his words are describing a time when he has heard the SAME plea before! And I dare to bet money on that the upcoming show will finally show us what Vader is talking about. Luke reminds him of a time when Obi, despite everything, was still begging him to turn to the Light. Luke's plea makes him emotional because it reminds him of Obi & now Luke does the same thing. Now, Vader follows this up with a much harsher tone & also turns physically to face Luke again, & tells him that he doesn't know the power of the Dark Side & all that. Vader's two lines are connected, indeed, but are they necessarily about the exact same thing? According to Thor here they are. I say they are not. Or that it's not set in stone.
I believe that "Obi-Wan once thought as you do", much softer spoken, obviously emotional, is a response to that Luke reminds him of a specific time when Obi asked him the exact same thing. Why else would he even say those words? He could just have skipped right to the follow-up line, "You don't know the power of the Dark Side! I must obey my Master!" But he didn't just skip to the words that would shut Luke up. First he has a flashback. And I believe it is a memory. A memory of Obi that Luke now copies, hence why he has the flashback. Then current reality kicks in & he tells Luke that he doesn't understand the Dark Side & that he can't disobey Sidious, hence the harsher tone & body language. I am not at all ruling out the possibility that Vader is saying here that Luke has it all wrong about the Dark Side as Obi did & that is what this whole conversation is about. But I think Vader's lines suggests he jumps between different thoughts, memories & emotions. It could just be one thought but how it's all played out presently, & far more importantly what this leads into as the film goes on, I think Vader is referring to TWO things, not just that Luke has the wrong idea of the Dark Side. Luke reminded him of Obi at a certain time, a moment we have yet to see because ANH nor the Prequels did. I have always felt, even decades prior to the Prequels, that there was something more here, a certain moment in time. And since Vader is so unspecific it can help justify the Kenobi show &, actually, not break canon even if many fear it will. That is all up to personal interpretation.
In the final end, though; When George & Kasdan wrote this scene & decided what Luke & Vader was gonna say to each other, there never was any idea of actually telling the story in detail of what might have happened between Ep 3 & 4. Even if George had his rough ideas & plans, we all know that he could originally think of something & later on change it. Leia was originally never Luke's sister BUT there was always a sister! Just an example of how things changed over time. And, for good or ill, we have the Special Editions. Let's just say, some changes were good, others horrible. But the point is that Lucas changed his mind many times over time. We don't know what his original idea about "Obi-Wan once thought as you do" actually means, except that he is referring to something that happened long before this moment. But nothing of when or what. So, if the Kenobi show does fill in this blank we shouldn't freak out. Nothing in either ANH or ROTJ, all of the OT, specifically states that Vader & Obi never met again between Ep 3 & 4. We all just assumed the first time we saw ANH that it had been decades last & when ROTS gave us that duel we again just assumed that was the only time. But no exact word in any dialogue says outright that it's impossible that they met in between. In fact, this line in ROTJ we are here focusing on, rather suggest there was more. Even as a small child, growing up with this, I always believed it was more than what the OT told us. And later I realized the Prequels didn't give the full answer either. For me, personally, I want that answer now. And if this Kenobi show doesn't show us once & for all what Vader was referring to then nothing ever will.
That's basically how I understood it. When Luke isn't bowing to the Emperor I believe it kinda impresses Vader and when Luke straight out throws his lightsaber away and would rather die than be like them, as he says in Empire, that is ultimately what awakens Anakin, or something like that anyhow
Exactly! Originally it was Luke that wanted to become a Jedi like his father. And one can perhaps argue that he fulfills that pledge, just in his own way since Luke resisted the Dark Side no matter what & in so doing was a better Jedi than his father. But the real interesting part here is that ROTJ ends with the father becoming a Jedi like his son! The actual title for Episode 6, Return of the Jedi, applies to them both. Luke represents the future Jedi as a whole (until Ruin Johnson came along 6 destroyed everything) & Anakin represents the individual Jedi that returns.
I would say that Obi-Wan is trying to convince Anakin that his dark path is the wrong one before and during their fight on Mustafar. Toward the end of their fight after Obi-Wan tells Anakin that Obi-Wan failed him, Obi-Wan says to Anakin, "Chancellor Palpatine is evil!" Anakin replies, "From my point of view the Jedi are evil!" And Obi-Wan concludes, "Then you truly are lost." Obi-Wan didn't WANT to fight/kill Anakin (which is also why he walks away while Anakin's on fire); Obi-Wan was HOPING Anakin would leave his dark path, but he steels himself to fight/kill Anakin since Anakin won't be swayed.
Obi-Wan still never tries to bring him back. Sure he doesn’t want to kill him but nowhere does he try to bring Anakin back. Anakin even says “you brought him here to kill me” to Padme and Obi-Wan does nothing to argue that. Earlier when Padme asks if Obi-Wan is going to kill Anakin he also doesn’t deny that he will.
Idk, if there's one thing the prequels conveyed quite clearly it's that the Jedi believed very staunchly that there was no saving someone from the dark side.
It's probably more likely that George initially thought Obi Wan would try to save him rather than kill him immediately like what ended up playing out in the prequels.
To me it would make more sense now that after his isolation and conversing with Qui Gon, Obi Wan would believe that he should try to save him. This would ultimately fail and he would become cynical again.
But I think your point just proves Thor’s point of view. Yes, the Jedi from the Prequel Era thought that there was no turning back once you fully commit to it, but they believed that you could let go of the feelings that feed the dark side (fear, anger and hate) before you turn. What Vader could have been trying to say is that Obi Wan used to think and tell him that it was possible to let go of his hate, which’s was what Luke was suggesting to him. Vader, however, disagreed
@@pedrorenault5335 Idk, that seems like a lot of speculation. Thor's point was they were wrong about the dark side in their teachings (at least according to Vader) but they seemed very zero tolerance about it. With Yoda even saying once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.
It just seems way more likely to me that they are talking about leaving the dark side not the path that takes you to it.
They should have changed this line to " your mother once thought as you do " since we saw Padmé say to him " come with me "
I've thought the same thing! Especially since (from my point of view) that's what Vader is referring to, a plea from a loved one to go with them and leave the dark side behind. Since we never saw Obi-Wan do that but DID see Padme do it, it'd be a Special Edition change that would make sense and also help bring Padme into the story more at the end of the saga.
@@CommanderCourage Always found it weird how the OT barely mentions Padmé and yes, that would have been a great change that makes sense ! And super easy to do since it's Vader with his mask on and he has his back turned so no excuse to not change that line ! We need George to make another Special Edition haha
I think George Lucas just forgot to have Kenobi ask Vader to come back because he shifted the line to Padme because George can make mistakes too. Or maybe the part where Obi-Wan said he had failed Anakin and that Palpatine is evil was what Vader in episode 6 was referencing. Anyway didn't really need them to have a rematch but if it's done well then ok I'll accept it. But leaks about the plot with 3rd sister are horrendous!!! If true Kenobi will be ruined for anyone actually considering this Canon which probably won't include me...
I'm gonna feel sorry for all the Obi-Wan fans out there IF those leaks are true, but tbh i've lost alot of faith and optimism in Disney Star Wars since they meddled with Favreau & Filloni's BOBF, and rushed Grogu back to Din, ruining Boba's book and overall story arc. I'm like 100% sure Favreau was trying to deviate and tell a whole different story, by setting up Grogu to join Luke's academy.
Kennedy (and Disney) have kept it to where Luke's story arc is all about making the samekind of failures as the Jedi, instead of him being a "modern Jedi" in every sense of the word, and taking the Jedi Order into a whole new way of following the ways of the force; All just to stay in line with the dull, inconsistent and extremely vague sequels.
My optimism has since weaned now especially for the Mandoverse, at this point it's all just going to connect right upto the sequel trilogy.
Ah, this is the TS content that I love! Just want to point out that in the novelisation the emperor openly speculates that the long missing Jedi Master Yoda was the one to finish Luke's training...
I hope that in the clash between Kenobi and Darth Vader, Kenobi either cuts part or removes the top half of Vader’s helmet, exposing his eye or head from the nose up. ( so he can still breath clean air) Kenobi looks into Vader’s eyes and sees nothing but anger, hate, and pain, or just soulless eyes. It would be that moment when Obi Wan accepts that Anakin is gone and a stranger is wearing his friend’s face. That can really put more meaning when Kenobi said “He is more machine now than man. Twisted and evil”.
Kind of like Vader vs. Ahsoka?
Obi Wan was not the least bit surprised at how Anakin looked in Ep 4. Like he already knew
"You don't know the power of the dark side. I must obey my master!" In short, "Motherfucker can shoot lightning!"
Always liked how much Vader still thinks about Kenobi. He faces him in A New Hope, and it's clear how much hatred he has for Kenobi and how much he has longed for revenge, and in both subsequent films he mentions his old master. I don't just think this is due to antagonism, but also a hidden respect and even a deep-seated longing for a time when he and Kenobi were still brothers. In ESB, he is almost disparaging of Kenobi, but also recognises the training he has given Luke. In RotJ, he seems saddened at the thought of his old master, and harbours doubts that maybe his old friend had been right all along. I truly believe the Anakin/Obi Wan dynamic is one of the most interesting parts of the Star Wars franchise. I feel the prequels did their best but the relationship got lost amidst the Padme/Anakin and Palpatine/Anakin connections, but Clone Wars took great strides in exploring their relationship. I don't believe it is canon anymore, though I may be wrong, but I love the old story of Obi Wan being present on the Second Death Star watching the duel between Luke and Vader, and when he saw Anakin abandon the dark side, he found him in the Netherworld of the Force after he died and taught him how to manifest as a ghost.
I don't believe Anakin truly hated Obi Wan. I believe he projected his anger and hatred of himself onto Obi Wan as I believe Obi Wan had always been the ideal he strove for, and he always felt, despite his arrogance, inferior to his master who never wavered and was always so strong, composed and wise. I feel that after he killed Obi Wan, he had nowhere to project those feelings but on himself, and all that was left for Kenobi was a longing for the brotherhood they once shared. With no one left to blame, he finally had to look at himself and his own choices. This scene is so short, but the vulnerability in his voice when he mentions his old master is a touching moment, and really demonstrates the cracks in Vader's resolve and faith in the dark side by this point. It's almost as if he is saying, "Obi Wan once thought as you do, and I wish I had listened because now I'm trapped." Really great scene.
There’s a deep regret in Anakin by this point, even though he won’t admit it to himself; the dark side rejects regret. But still, the regret is there. He realizes he was a fool to turn, despite not admitting it to Luke or to himself, but he believes it’s simply too late and he might as well stick with it.
I believe Thors analysis is pretty accurate. Though those lines of dialogue are vague enough to be open to interpretation. The Kenobi show is going to have to work hard to get people to accept them having another or numerous encounters.
I liked the first episode of Kenobi, but the second episode started to make me have doubts. Not to mention the leaks that this is a bait and switch, I think the rest of the episodes are gonna be trash.
Nice interpretation. My butt was in the movie theater seat in 1983. And even then I felt like he meant that Obi-Wan tried to turn him at some point in the past.
I thought when old Ben said he was more machine than man, he was referring to when they met on the Death Star and he thought there was no more Anakin in him.
All this coulda been avoided if he didn’t follow padme...
Since watching as a kid I thought this scene was about Luke saying "We pick our own destiny" and Vader replying "Your wrong, you can't change your destiny." This is why the Sidious says "Your fulfilling your destiny Anakin", trying to convince him his only choice is the dark path.
BEAUTIFUL!!!! Thank you for this analysis!!! Please, do more of these videos!!
I've always read this scene as, "Obi-Wan once tried to make me change. But he didn't know how alluring the Dark side was to me then, and you don't know the power Palpatine has over me with it now. I have to obey him, whether I like it or not."
I think you are 100% correct.
To many, you can look at art and see what-ever you want. Your analysis of what really is there is spot on.
This is one instance where I don't agree with you. Your explanation of Vader's words mostly fits, but it doesn't explain Lucas's "original" intent, because that wasn't in fact what he originally intended regarding Anakin/Vader's backstory. From one of the late drafts of ROTJ:
Obi-Wan speaking to Luke about Anakin: "I don't blame you for being angry. If I was wrong in what I did, it certainly wouldn't have been for the first time. You see, what happened to your father was my fault. Anakin was a good friend ... When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot. But I was amazed how strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong. My pride has had terrible consequences for the galaxy ... I also thought he could be turned back to the good side. It couldn't be done. He is more machine now than man. Twisted and evil ... To be a Jedi, Luke, you must confront and then go beyond the dark side - the side your father couldn't get past. Impatience is the easiest door - for you, like your father. Only, your father was seduced by what he found on the other side of the door, and you have held firm. You're no longer so reckless now, Luke. You are strong and patient. And now, you must face Darth Vader again! ... When your father left, he didn't know your mother was pregnant. Your mother and I knew he would find out eventually, but we wanted to keep you both as safe as possible, for as long as possible. "
Much of this (if not all) made it into the ROTJ novelization, so it was still present in the script at a very late point. It guided a lot of fan thought for years leading up to the prequels and much of it was captured in the "original" backstory Lucas provided that was used in the first official Star Wars timeline book in the late 80s/early 90s and by authors the start of the EU. After the prequels, it was clear that this original backstory and timeline had been tossed by GL, but this is exactly what was set up in the dialogue that survived to the final cut of ROTJ. Your video presents a rationalized explanation of the prequel dialog's not fitting well in many places with the backstory presented in the OT, just as "the Force gave Leia visions of Padme" is a similar rationalization many fans have proposed to explain Leia's line to Luke when he asks about her real mother.
Fans are doing the same now with this new Kenobi series to improve upon the rationalizations of the inconsistencies that we all had to make immediately after the prequels. The idea that "Kenobi and Vader had to meet again after Mustafar, because of Vader's line in ROTJ" isn't any less in line with GL's "original intent" for the saga than what you propose in this video, because just as with Vader's being Luke's father and Padme's dying when Leia was very young, Lucas's "original intent" was tossed for ideas he liked better at a later time. This time it isn't Lucas doing the tossing of earlier ideas, so to me, the real question (which you present) is as to whether or not this change breaks an individual's head canon, since it isn't a change by GL.
Honestly, anything after ANH is breaking the canon, considering it was supposed to be a standalone story. I agree to an extent though, and I am one of the people who absolutely hated the second episode of the show so far. I already know where it's going and it's shit.
@@camd4648 ESB is brilliant, though, because it breaks nothing. It's incredibly brilliant in how it not only seamlessly integrates with ANH, but it also reacts to ANH's reception by purposefully designing the story to unfold upon rewatching multiple times.
It's really RotJ which breaks things apart, because Lucas decided to rework things to make everything fit into a single movie (instead of four more). The biggest and most consequential change was making (Anakin) Skywalker and Darth Vader the same person. In ANH and ESB, they were two different people. Darth Vader's name was always Darth Vader, and (Anakin) Skywalker was a Jedi warrior who Darth Vader killed, as well as Luke's adoptive father. Obi-Wan never lied to Luke, he just never bothered to mention that Luke's "father" was not actually his biological father.
But if you stick to the original intended story of ESB, without the changes introduced by RotJ, you can see how perfectly it meshes with ANH. And it's absolutely brilliant. It now makes sense why Obi-Wan hid Luke with Skywalker's relatives, on some random fringe planet Vader has no knowledge of. It now makes sense that the Emperor has no idea that the "son of Skywalker" is related to Vader. It now makes sense that this is an inadvertent slip from the Emperor revealing the limits of his knowledge of the situation. It now makes sense that Vader sees this as a way for him to salvage the situation and that he's not in imminent danger of being remote force choked to death by the Emperor.
@@IsaacKuo Except none of that matters now because that's not the truth anymore?
@@Xeno_Solarus It matters if you want to enjoy ESB in a really fun way, and appreciate it to the best degree.
It also matters if you want to understand ESB and how it was perceived at the time.
I think everything in this half of RotJ regarding Luke and Vader is masterclass, 10/10. These movies aren't exactly known for their acting and writing, in fact both are mocked by the actors in A New Hope and Lucas didn't exactly write prose for the Prequel trilogy either. Yet the dialogue between Luke, Vader, and Palpatine gets me every damn time. And the absolute cherry on top is Vaders death scene with Luke in the hangar bay. All of what I mentioned being wrapped up in the amazing score of John Williams to really drive the emotional dagger right through your heart. Absolutely amazing
The biggest problem of a Vader vs Obi- Wan fight happening in the new series is that some previous lines in the original trilogy don’t make sense. When they meet on the first Death Star, Vader says “When we last met I was but the learner, now I am the master “. That line only makes sense if it is referring to their duel on Mustafar…
Anakin didn't leave, so the line makes no sense anyway.
I always thought this was in reference to Revenge of the Sith when Obi Wan and Anakin fought. Obi Wan tried to give one last attempt to turn Anakin back to the light and failed.
He did it in the worse way possible. Literally could’ve done it any other way.
I would really love to see this line given more context in the Kenobi series. Most people are hyped to see Vader and Kenobi physically clash in this series, and I’m definitely one of them. But I really want to see the inner conflict of Obi-Wan and Anakin, the dynamic of their relationship and the glimpses of Anakin we will see beneath Vaders mask.
It would be similar to when Ahsoka fights Vader and is able to draw out Anakin for those few seconds before the dark side takes over again. I love moments like those when Anakin realizes that people are still fighting for who he use to be. Vader sharing a similar moment with Obi-Wan would highlight how Anakin still hopes he can be saved and still has love for his friends, but his fear of abandonment and his past actions always makes him conflicted. Combined with the Ahsoka moment, it would feel even more impactful in ROTJ when Luke refuses to give up on his father.
As a kid his body language told me he was telling Luke the dark side had swallowed him...and that the Emperor was so much stronger than him, if he didnt obey hed lose his life too. He realised hed run out of road. Hes almost warning Luke in a way.
Nothing can compare to that powerful voice and the way every single word is spoken with meaning!
That was amazing! That makes so much sense... the whole scenes got so much deeper for me now! Thanks!!!
I’m sooo glad you picked up those two lines… it’s was never picked up during its movie release and meaning lost over time.
Thor, thank you so much for pointing this out. For years I've had a very similar interpretation, and I thought it was odd that virtually everyone else assumed this was referring to some specific moment or event, despite no direct evidence pointing to the two of them meeting between Ep. 3 and 4 (excluding the Kenobi series now, of course, haha). I always took this as Vader reflecting on Obi-Wan's general outlook on life or his teachings; an IDEA that people can be redeemed, not some unseen attempt from the past.
This is definitely a valid interpretation I hadn't considered. Certainly that line from Return of the Jedi doesn't have to mean another potentially cannon breaking encounter between Vader and Kenobi in order for it to have meaning and impact in the present continuity. The line can stand well enough on its own. But in order for this new series to be more than just spectacle then it will need to tie into something more substantive than just another fight. Leaning into this line from Vader and having Obi-Wan attempt to redeem him in some fashion, I think, is the best way to accomplish this. It would not only give the series the real gravitas it needs to justify itself even existing but would be a significant bolster to making Vader's ultimate redemption an even richer journey.
The way Vader says "Obi-Wan has taught you well" in Return of the Jedi (he also says this during their duel in Empire), I can't help but sense that he still holds some kind of respect for his old mentor and friend even after all this time and everything that happened between them. The importance and complexity of the Vader / Kenobi relationship can't be overstated. The Kenobi series needs to uniquely enrich some facet of that relationship in order to be successful.
I was writing a comment on how there couldn’t be a forgotten second fight between the two, how the duel in a new hope couldn’t be the third match between the two, and I came to a realization: NEVER does Vader say, “ah…I’ve waited so long for this REMACH!” He says: “we meet again, at last. When I left you I was but the learner, now I am the master.” He mentions when he left Kenobi’s side and turned, he mentions we meet again. Vague enough to work a rematch in there somewhere?
I really enjoyed this video, and it's very much in line with how I heard and perceived their conversations. I never realized anyone construed these lines to be associated with another meeting between the two before their last fight on the deathstar.
The way he has his back turned to Luke also means he has a sense of shame and doesn't want to look directly at luke
Another great video TS! As a kid, the dialogue here implied that Obi Wan and Vader had a confrontation; resulting in Vader staying Vader, Kenobi leaving till Episode IV. After Episode III, between Padme pleading with Anakin to come away with her and Obi Wan there, that sufficed as, “Obi Wan once thought as you do…” IMO, there’s room for a discussion of sorts in this new series.
That's a very good point you're making. I see now how Vader saying he sees Obi-Wan in Luke plain as day could be and ultimately was misconstrued into being another encounter between them in the Kenobi series.
"You don't know the power of the Dark Side. I must obey my master" - see, to me this was the first real sign that Vader actually feared the Emperor, but could not do anything about it due to how ridiculously powerful the Emperor was.
This is huge point in movie, thank you for covering it, love to all
I like this shorter format. Less of a time commitment.
Perhaps obi-wan simply believed there was good in anakin, not that obi-wan attempted to turn anakin back to the light.
Enjoyed the quick dive.
Just a thought, if I remember correctly, Anakin had already been christened Darth Vader when he and Obi-Wan battled on Mustafar, Obi-Wan trying to talk Anakin back from the dark side and admitting his failure to Anakin the whole time. Obi-Wan and Yoda watched Palpatine (Darth Sidious) christen Anakint on a security hologram in the Jedi Temple while discovering who killed the younglings. So Obi-Wan and Darth Vader did battle twice, thus the mostly machine commit in 'A New Hope'. Just my two-cents worth.
Keep up the great work.
Had completely forgot that line. Great Point!
What I found wonderfully about this, is that it could be both, all the análisis presented here and the kids need I've seen in the comments could be true, but it can also be true that apart from that Obi wan could try to recover Anakin in the new series. I honestly hope is both, both would be great.
As of now only 3 of the 6 episodes of Obi Wan have been released. It’s so good. Especially the fear Obi has of Anakin now that he knows he’s alive 10 years later and is now this scary machine named Vader.
Honestly the beauty is that lines like that could be interpreted in multiple ways. Either from what you said or maybe what we’ll see in the Kenobi series.
When Vader said "Obi-wan once thought as you do", I think he was just using Obi-wan's name to disguise the fact that he's actually talking about Padme. She was the one telling Vader the exact same words that Luke is saying to him, ("There is good in you", "Come with me") while all Obi-wan did was pull out his lightsaber which caused Vader to fight him and be sliced up in the process.
Read a lot of comments arguing this way and that about which interpretation is correct, but yours by far makes the most sense. Given his undoubteed trauma over the death of Padme, I think it makes total sense that he used Obi-Wan as a stand in for saying 'Padme' or 'Your mother' once thought as you do. A theory which is given more weight by how heavy with emotion his voice becomes at that moment.
If they do have the fight and Obi Wan says something like “you are still but the learner”, it would make both this throwaway line from RotJ AND the line from ANH “when I left you, I was but the learner” make sense.
“When I left you I was but the learner, now I am the master” only makes sense if the last time Vader and Obi Wan saw each other was on Mustafar
Omg. No idea if I've watched one of your flicks before, but that Luke Graphic??? I legit almost fell off my chair laughing. It’s just too good!!
I never assumed that this line was implying another meeting between Vader & Obi-Wan. It wouldn't have been necessary for them to meet for Obi-Wan to hold on to hope that there was still good in him after he fell, but eventually let go of that hope.
My thought on any possible rematch between Vader and Kenobi is that it would be out of context. In A NEW HOPE, when Vader first gets the force impression of Obiwan, he says that it is a feeling he hasn't felt in a long time, almost like he forgot it existed, implying he thought Obiwan was dead.
If it wasn't a direct response to Luke telling him there's still good in him and he can come back to the light, I could be down with this idea. That said, a confrontation between Vader and Obi-Wan makes total sense. Vader should want to hunt him down and when Obi-Wan learns of Anakins fate becoming Vader, after his failure, he should make an effort to save him if confronted by Vader, especially since the last thing Padme told Obi-Wan that there's still good in Anakin.
I’d love to hear what George thinks about this series. Not because I want him to pick it apart or anything, but I’d love to hear his honest opinion on the story Deborah Chow has created. Some sort of a one-on-one interview between the two could be really cool.
I'd love to hear George's candid thoughts on the Disney era of Star Wars. Not because I just want him to tear it apart, but because I'd just love to know what he really and truly thinks about it; what parts he might like and agree with.. and which he doesn't or would think don't work or fit with his ideas.
@@thorskywalker I wholeheartedly agree. I honestly think there’s a good amount of things on either side, both praise and criticism. I’m sure he’s proud of people carrying his legacy in all of these ways and in all these stories, but I’m wondering to what extent he still feels that sense of ownership, and doesn’t want to see his “property” mistreated. Regardless, a “no-holds-barred” sort of commentary from George would be super cool.
An interesting point of view, I'm sure that several people are asking themselves the same question, I remember that Padme's last words to Obi-Wan were that there was still good in him, I thought it would add motivation to Obi-Wan to try to bring him back to the good side at some point.
I think it can be both. There’s a lot of examples in literature where it’s both literal and figurative
“When I left you I was but the learner, now I am the master” Disney is going to make that seem like Vader was still learning the dark side when he fights Kenobi in this series
No, he is explicitly talking about Mustafar, that is where he officially left Obi-Wan. Before things were still not entirely certain. It is different from "When I last saw you".
Vader's lines are delivered with long pauses and stares away from Luke to indicate his conflict, which is a stark contrast to Obi-wan's present belief that Anakin is truly dead (which Luke reiterates at the end of the conversation). So, yes, I do take that line to mean that Obi-wan once hoped that Vader would turn away from the dark side. However, I see no reason this could not refer to their exchange on Mustafar before the battle, where Obi-wan pleads his case and tells Anakin that his hatred was destroying him and driving Padme away. When Vader follows up by saying, "You don't know the power of the dark side," it suggests that he sees Luke as a younger Obi-wan, more naive than Obi-wan is presently.
I’ve always been curious about Darth Vaders use of language compared to how Anakin talked. Vader seems more “educated” in terms of proper grammar where as Anakin was more loose with words. Anyone else ever wonder about that?
I've often thought that myself. My guess is using James Earl Jones as the voice of Vader he has to sound educated.
Remember it was Padme who asked Ani to run away with her in ROTS. Maybe Obi-Wan Wan does something similar, possibly in the next 3 episodes of Kenobi.
I'd always assumed (based on the ROTJ line in question) that at one point Obi-Wan had at least expressed to Vader that he could return to the light. I like the juxtaposition of that previous hope with Obi-Wan having given up entirely on him later in life.
I believe the line in Kenobi will be "Hello there! Come with me." 😂
I always assumed by those two lines and the line that Vader says, "You should not have come back", that they must have met again, even if just once more
I completely agree with yo 100%. Your interpretation is as mine and also I believe it makes the story better that way.
I don't have Disney so will have to wait for the series to come out on DVD but I was a little disappointed that they are talking about Vader being in it. Hopefully it is merely incidental and they do not try to construct a meeting between the two. What makes that scene in A New Hope so epic is the fact they haven't seen each other in so long, and that Vader might even believe Obi-Wan is dead already. I hope this new series does not destroy that dramatic tension.
The line about how "Obi-Wan once thought as you do" could be referring to things Obi-Wan said during the duel on Mustafar, especially after Vader had years to ponder those words. However, it seems more likely that it will be covered in the series. Just seeing Vader with legs will explain the "more machine now than man" since mechanical prosthetics aren't unusual even during the Clone Wars.
Absolutely! Job well done. Never looked at it that way.
I think maybe it could mean both. Obi-Wan tried to save him. But Vader is remembering things he was taught and he sees them in Luke.
Obiwan didn’t try shit lol
I always thought the Vader in empire was so different from the Vader we see in ROTJ. The man was ready to destroy Luke and then in the next movie he’s emotionally conflicted and wavering?
That’s a bridge that really needs to be explored someday.
I heard someone discuss this (I think it was Star Wars Theory). He was stating that he thought that Luke basically jumping off a cliff rather than joining Vader's side made Vader question things some. Anakin was all about his loved ones (friends/family) and here (obviously as Vader) his son would basically rather die than travel down the dark path with him (even to take down the Emperor).
After Luke gets rescued, Vader still tries to plea with him through the force before the Falcon jumps to lightspeed. We even see a little conflict in Vader when he looks away then looks back out in space.
He has conflict in empire after the confrontation and also you can notice how he says "he is just a boy" when the emperor suggests to turn him to the dark side it doesn't sound arrogant but more sad.
Like he doesn't want Luke's life to be ruined the same way that his was
Vader was negotiating with Luke at the end of ESB, yes he told Luke "join me and we can rule the galaxy as father and son" after cutting off Luke's hand, Luke's options were take his fathers hand or a long drop, Vader was trying to talk him into coming back onto safe ground, he may have been willing to kill Luke if he absolutely had to, but he most certainly did not want to, sure Luke was stronger than Vader expected but ESB Luke never stood a chance against ESB Vader, so Vader gave him a demonstration of the power of the dark side, gave him a beating, but nothing too serious (by Star Wars standards) then revealed he was Luke's father, Anakin probably thought knowing that he had a father who wanted him would have made him happy at that sort of age, so why would it not have worked for his son?
In Return of the Jedi Vader had seen that his son was willing to trust The Force, would choose potentially a several mile fall to his near certain death, over a fall to the dark side, he knew with Luke's help he could defeat the Emperor, but he also knew Luke would not willingly help him to do it, he did not want to kill his son, sure he was willing to give Luke a beating "for his own good" (at least from Vader's perspective) but not watch him be tortured or killed, basically you had Vader fighting Anakin, the last time that happened Anakin's fear over loosing his wife was a serious weekness and allowed Vader to win, this time love for and a need to protect all that was left of Padmé, their children gave Anakin the strength to defeat Vader.
As I view it Luke was Anakin's hope, Anakin had been without hope since (as far as he knows) Vader killed Padmé, when he found he had a son it probably gave him hope that he could be something other than Palpertine's enforcer, he desperately needed a new reason to have hope, if Luke was alive maybe he could learn what he needed to kill the Emperor, to bring balance to the force, to achieve the "chosen one" prophecy, and maybe just maybe Anakin could have a little happiness after 2 decades of suffering.
@@terryforsdyke306 well said! All of these are excellent examples of how the seeds of conflict were sown at the end of ESB. I always thought that the dialogue between Vader and Sidius (when talking about the son of Anakin turning) was awesome because the first time you watch it, when Vader says, “but he’s just a boy” it comes across as the villain implying the protagonist is weak and unworthy. Once we learn that Vader is Anakin and Luke is his son, suddenly that line hits different - much more like a father being concerned for his son.
After seeing the prequels when Luke does the flip up on the bridge he stands above Vader and now has The high ground and then.. Obi-Wan has taught you well. Love it
Thor's Lightning strikes.
And his answer to, "I will not turn, and you'll be forced to kill me..." was, "if that is your destiny...", suggesting that even as a sith he was still loyal to the will of the force and that anything that is considered "good" or "bad" may have a different meaning in the great scheme of things. Perhaps he even spoke with Qui-gon...would explain how he became a force ghost.
I always took this scene one step further then this in that Vader is even trying to convince himself that what he is saying is true but yet a small part still believes his old teaching like Luke.
Actually, I feel like the whole high ground scene was a reference to Vader saying "Obi-Wan has taught you well" since Luke had the high ground. Just like poetry, it rhymes.
Galactic Mailman drops sac of letters
Vader: "What's this?"
Mailman: "Child support notices........Anakin."
Vader: "Aw, man."
I like this short video format.
I think people today see WAY TOO MUCH in those old movies... they were (and still are) very simple stories.
You have to remember, Jorge Lucas was making shit up as he went along. Literally, he was creating new way of making special effects, he was changing the way movies were made... As much as I love those old movies, I never believed for a second that Vader was always going to be Luke's father... nor did I believe Leia was his sister. And as brilliant as these ideas turned out to be in the long run, I'm pretty sure they came up after the first movie was released.
Good points. Some of the things that Obi-Wan said on Mustafar are congruent with this. “Chancellor Palpatine is Evil” is one of them. He’s trying to convince him he’s wrong. So I don’t think this ROTJ line in itself opens or closes the door on them having had a second fight. Through all of the dialogue Obi wan has about and with Vader in the OT, there’s wiggle room for interpretation and as long as them fighting in the series makes sense, it’s not going to take away from anything in the OT and I say this as an older dude who grew up with only the OT. So I don’t like it messed with. I don’t think this show will do that.
I was also thinking that a rematch MIGHT happen, and it wouldn’t be inconsistent. There could be several duels, in fact, and it wouldn’t really matter. The line “when I left you I was but the learner, now I am the master” doesn’t have to mean “when we last fought”, but could just be when they first divided on mustafar.
That being said, it would have to be really early on after the whole thing, because Vader says he hasn’t felt Obi-Wan’s presence in a long time, long enough to think he was gone forever.
I grew up in the mid 70's and 80's. Star Wars was a big part of that time of my life and continues to be so. My recollection about Vader and Kenobi was that Lucas had stated that the two had dueled near a volcano, with Vader being beaten by Kenobi and falling into the lava. Kenobi had been trying to save Anakin Skywalker and redeem him during that duel.
That isn't what is presented in Revenge of the Sith, but that's not surprising given how unfaithful to the narrative Lucas became once the Prequels went into production (this faithlessness to the original series is the root of most of the dislike that many fans had of the Prequels).
I feel like shows like The Clone Wars and Rebels serve two purposes: they make money for the owner of that Intellectual Property, but they also can serve to rehabilitate characters and stories that the films failed to properly convey.
The Clone Wars takes Anakin Skywalker who, in the films, readily agrees to murder dozens of defenseless children in their school, and makes that character someone you actually care about. I feel like the Obi-Wan Kenobi show is meant to continue that trend. It's not so much a retcon as it is polishing the story that Lucas put forward in the Prequels.
I do feel like there will be a point where Obi-Wan tries to appeal to the goodness in Vader. I feel like Padme's last words to Obi-Wan foreshadow that to a degree. It will be interesting to see how that goes.
I feel like the one thing you may have overlooked with regards to Vader's motivation for saving Luke is that this is foreshadowed in Empire when Vader, who has been told to kill Luke, counters with the possibility of Luke being turned to the Dark Side. That, to me, is where Vader starts to show that there is something good in him and it's also reflected by something Vader *doesn't* do at the end of Empire.
Throughout that film *every* time an Imperial officer fails Vader, they die. They get force choked to death. Yet when Piett assures Vader that the Millenium Falcon won't be able to escape only to see the ship enter Hyperspace, Vader lets Piett live. This is another indicator that the seeds of Vader's goodness are growing. He is okay with Luke escaping because it means he won't have to turn his son over to Palpatine.
Not quite. You need to take this ROTJ line in context of 1983. The ROTJ novelization: “When I saw what had become of him, I tried to dissuade him, to draw him back from the dark side. We fought… your father fell into a molten pit” Now Lucas retconned this idea (edited out of the final script) by having Obi go to only kill Anakin… and on the moment of ROTJ, Luke is trying to bring Vader back…. Not a situation of dark vs light theory, so the stronger connection is with the idea that Obi once tried to bring Vader back. The final fix in the upcoming show: Obi fights Vader once before knowing who he is by the end of the fight. They get separated. Time passes, another fight - this time Obi knows who it is and has pity, tries to bring him back. Vader claims dark side is stronger, Obi beats him, leaves with a quip “you still have much to learn”…. Now the “I was but the learner now I am the master” can still work.
"rematch"
Rematch part 1
Kenobi: *runs*
Rematch part 2:
Kenobi: *pokes at him with his light saber*
Vader may not be one of the most talkative villains, but the little he says has a hidden meaning. Things around him are rarely as simple as they seem at first glance.
In my opinion Vader is talking about when he and Obi-Wan played "the floor is lava" on Mustafar, a rematch would just hurt the story, just like it was stupid to bring Maul back (imo)
It was a stupid idea to bring him back. But it was executed perfectly in my opinion, so I'm fine with it
Obviously it's a massive stretch to bring maul back, but I think it hurts the permanence of death and the lore in the canon rather than the story.
Bringing maul back did nothing to the story. Maul was not a character before they brought him back. They didn't ruin his arc because he didn't have one. Obi wan defeating him was important but not because Obi wan had a dynamic with maul.
Then clone wars happened and they did maul justice, giving him amazing characterization.
The new duel between Vader and Obi wan is different in that you can argue it hurts the story and character dynamics.
Get out :P
It makes me think about how SLJ is up for returning, despite asking to die in an awesome way in RotS, which is exactly what we got.
They did a great job giving real character to Maul but it does indeed mean anyone can survive what is supposed to kill them now and it can harm the story.
I'd say that line referred to Obi Wan and Padme's attempt to save Anakin on Mustafar.
What about the line in A New Hope when Obi-wan meets Vader, and Vader says "we meet again at last. The circle in now complete. When I left you I was but the learner, now I am the master."
I always interpreted the emphasis of the word "must" to mean something between an addiction and a threat from the emperor. Vader's cornered from every angle on this one, and that's all he can say about it. I _must_ obey.
That is waht I wrote in your video a few month ago. When you released the video about talking the new kenobi v Vader fight. I wrote that Kenobi expressed that Vader is more a machine than a man. That for me meant that they had another fight.
Well, Obi-Wan says that line about being "more machine now than man" in Return of the Jedi, after he's encountered him in A New Hope and seen what he's become there. In other words, that could easily be when he learned what Vader had truly become, not in some other "in-between" duel.
I like the idea of the Kenobi show addressing such a line and it is leading in that direction.
Other interesting comments here are about: " you don't know the power of the dark side, I must obey my master" has an entirely different meaning to me. Anakin's arc has been by far the most compelling of the Skywalker saga. I always felt the inner turmoil inside of Anakin. He was more a slave to himself than the Emperor. His Master being lust for power. Revenge of the Sith really portrays this in him where he was afriad to lose Padme like he lost his mother and became obsessed withing learning this power that Palpatine seduced him with. He always wanted more and often said "I am not the Jedi I should be" think of some one with an addiction. Anakin and Vader both were addicted to power. He even wanted his son to join him and overthrow the Emperor at one point.
From the beginning I thought the line meant what it sounds like. That obi wan tried to sway him back from the dark…when the prequels came out I assumed that would be addressed in their duel but obi wan didn’t even try to sway him. I do think them paying off this line will have the big emotional impact this show needs.
I like and agree with a lot of what I’m reading in here, especially when Vader says it it too late for him and that he must obey Sideous because of the power of the dark side.
I had thought that it was perhaps literally the power of the dark side that was keeping him alive, that he had to hang on to his hatred and anger to make the suit function well enough to support life. If this was true, then Vader knew all along that his turning back to the light was a suicide mission.