I’ve always felt that Luke and Qui-Gon have been the example of what a Jedi should be. Obi-Wan and Yoda while being legendary and great Jedi, lacked the full vision for following the will of the force rather than the council, as we saw in episode 1. And Luke in ep. 6 wanted to save his father rather than kill him which was also different than what Yoda and Obi-Wan originally intended.
I struggle with when a character feels forced into being a hero, which is why I love Luke and Qui-Gonn for doing this kind of stuff for Anakin and Grogu. People that choose where to go make the path and struggle their own. I think of Hawkeye's scene in Age of Ultron when he tells Wanda that stepping out the door makes her a hero, but she didn't have to go out if she wasn't ready. I'll need to rewatch it to have a better idea of what happens there since I don't remember how exactly that scene feels. I like the idea of showing someone they can be a hero if they're willing to step into a new way of life. It makes those who take that step and struggle onto the path become inspirations, yet those who decide to not take that path don't become monsters. Those who choose the path of a hero aren't necessarily better than those who don't; instead, they will have different challenges as well as opportunities because of the responsible use of their power. I like it a lot.
I love your definition of a hero here, that they sacrifice what they love so others don’t have to and they don’t expect others to make the hard choices they do
I think Luke would have gotten a new outfit in 40-50 years. I imagine an old Luke who has stuck to his Jedi beliefs would be called serine instead of happy. He certainly would trust more in the Force. I don't know if he would still be considered idealistic then. Maybe more along the lines of following where the Will of the Force takes him.
@@RevanMartinez The difference is that the people who wrote Luke in the show actually care about the character and have some respect. Roundhead Johnson and Kathy have zero respect for anything. Roundhead was more interested in pissing off "toxic fans" with his "subversions" while Kathy only wanted to promote her agenda while marginalizing everything Lucas created.
I'm not so sure that Grogu's choosing to return to Mando puts an end to the idea of his training under Luke. Luke may have presented the choice to Grogu to help Grogu understand himself better. We didn't actually see what happened when Grogu made the choice and what Luke said to him afterward.
That's what I was thinking. And when Luke put in to perspective Din's shorter life, I think Grogu decided to be with Din while he could then after continue his training at a later date. It's a reasonable compromise.
@@Jedishill680 Definitely. Grogu is a special case and he deserves some happiness before he has to get serious. And the fact that he can live upwards to a thousand years, there is so much he can do to help balance the force for millennium.
@@vetarlittorf1807 I think that is the assumption, that Grogu gives into attachment. I don't think he does. Attachment is not that he loves Din because Jedi are encouraged to love. Attachment is the inability to let go and accept loss. Grogu already demonstrated that he could let go when he left Din to be trained by Luke. But when Luke gave him the choice and Grogu thought about Din's lifespan as opposed to his, Grogu seemed to want to be with Din while he can. That's not attachment. When Din inevitably dies and if Grogu does not accept that then we can say he has succumbed to attachment. At present it's just their worries that he is attached. And like I said loving someone isn't attachment. Having a bond isn't attachment.
I find it so interesting that shmi (unlike her son) made the sacrifice to give up the only one she truly loved for the greater good of the galaxy. Makes episode 1-3 feel more tragic ani couldn’t do the same once influenced by palps.
You think he'd get it with the heavy hints, that his mum gave him up for the greater good, his master has to let go of the love of his life especially when she is killed in front of him, and his own padawan makes the choice he never had the bottle to do.
I really like these deeper delves into Star Wars you give. While i wasnt mad i did have some similar reactions like those mentioned about Luke " knowing better" after you said " are you willing to give up what you love to ensure others do mot have to" , that is when it occured to me that would have been the perfect dialog for Luke to have told Grogu. It would jave made it seem like he cared more about giving him details about his choice and what would be asked of him.
I think the Sith argument is that someone will always make the rules, so it might as well be them. "Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven," and all that. They don't have the ability to believe in a world where everyone agrees to abide by mutually beneficial rules and no single person is in charge.
Power is not a means, but the goal itself. You may start with intentions to use power for pure means, but no one ever takes power with the intention of relinquishing it. One doesn't set up the Dictatorship to safeguard the Revolution, one has a Revolution to establish the Dictatorship. Power has always been the end goal, and it will always be the end goal.
I will always and forever laugh at the faces of those who call themselves influencers as well as laugh at the title "influencers". Comparing them to the sith is very accurate
Excellent video. I totally agree with your perspective on the Jedi. The ability to use the Force is a gift, and selflessness is the cost. It may seem to be an unfair cost to some, but that's not necessarily the case. You mentioned Grogu's choice and how some people have an issue with Luke presenting that choice, and that's why I decided to comment on this video. Personally, I just don't like how Disney/Lucasfilm has handled the character of Luke Skywalker. If the sequel trilogy didn't exist, I would have definitely wanted Grogu to remain with Luke and train to be a Jedi. Unfortunately, we know how Luke's Jedi Academy ends, and I don't want Grogu to meet that same fate. Until there has been some sort of major retcon that eliminates the sequel trilogy from canon, we know that Luke Skywalker and all of his apprentices come to a brutal end. Grogu's lifespan is so long, that he could live an entire lifetime with Din Djarin, and still become a Jedi for another 700 or 800 years. The future of Star Wars, and the Jedi revolves completely around Grogu at this point in time. I guess fans of the sequel trilogy may disagree with that, and say that Rey Palpatine Skywalker is the future, but I hate the character so much that I simply can't accept that. I think it would make more sense to make Rey a Sith Lord than the leader and future of the Jedi Knights. I mean, really, who uses Force Lightning by accident anyway?????
Choices and decisions we make in life aren't always easy or clear-cut. Rarely do our choices include the ability to select all of the options, but instead exclude many if not all of the other available options. I respect Luke's decision to give Grogu the choice between the lightsaber and the life of a Jedi or the armor and the way of the Mandalore. I think he based his decision based on what he had largely learned on his own and his own compassion. The selfish choice would have been to keep Mando's gift a secret from Grogu and force him into becoming a Jedi. I'm sure Luke sensed Grougu's attachment to Mando, much like Ahsoka did and rightly chose to allow Grogu to decide his own future, or at least his immediate future. Grogu has a long life span and has the potential to be the catalyst for many future SW stories, including an eventual life as a Jedi...a Mandalorian Jedi would be even cooler.
That's the thing though: 1) you say we shouldn't lower our standards of heroes, 2) that if we lower our standards for our heroes, they become villains, 3) not everyone can be a hero, 4) regardless, we should all strive to be heroes. That's kind of the issue that Anakin ran into, though. He was striving to be a hero, grabbing power on the way, until it wasn't tenable for him anymore. Once he realized he couldn't get there, he fell apart. Luke chose his friends/family over the Jedi... twice. I'd argue the purpose of heroes is not to be perfect, shining ideal examples. They are there to reveal how we can be better. The more relatable they are, the more they teach us. This is similar to the Mary Sue issue: you need to have your heroes struggle, make mistakes, etc to overcome them and teach us how to overcome things. Having perfect heroes not only degrades one's ability to improve, but also discourages growth. The growth mindset is critical to improving yourself efficiently and being happy and resilient. Not only that, but there's a reason the cliche "never meet your heroes" exists: people aren't perfect, even heroes. If you believe that perfect heroes exist, then you're more likely to be manipulated by said heroes, even if they are villains (I.E. Palpatine, Priests and people of authority who abuse power, etc). Does that mean that we should accept people's mistakes wholesale? No. We still need to hold people accountable while being empathetic. There's a balance between just giving up on trying to be better and expecting everyone to be perfect. Too many times I've seen people burned out because of the expectations that are put on them (self-imposed or otherwise), and they are either taken advantage of or they stop caring altogether.
First thing, quickly. When Luke chose to risk his life to save his friends / family (more than twice) over finishing his Jedi training, he was not a Jedi. He was still a Padawan learner. According to Yoda, he did not become a Jedi until after he faced Vader on the second Death Star at the end of Ep 6. Luke was still learning to be a Jedi when he made those choices. Would he make those choices again with greater knowledge and understanding of the big picture? Maybe. Maybe not. What is true is that most Jedi who fall to the dark side do so by pursuing personal desires, either personal gain, attachments or quests to achieve some personal goal of knowledge, power or skill, and when a powerful Jedi becomes a Sith Lord, thousands, millions or even billions of innocent people have died. That is why the Jedi are so paranoid about any risk of falling to the dark side. The result of a false negative is that one person may be disadvantaged. The result of a false positive is that billions could die. The risks are not balanced, so neither are their policies. They have to do everything to avoid the risk of a powerful Jedi falling to the dark side, which means limiting access to power / training / skills if a person shows any potential to fall. Secondly, I think it depends on how you define a hero. I agree a hero doesn't need to be perfect and always be successful. I also agree that the more readers/viewers/fans can relate to a hero, the more that hero's actions can affect those readers/viewers/fans. Your point about Mary Sues is also a good one. No one can relate to an impossibly powerful and flawless hero (except for Superman for some reason). Our heroes need to be at risk, to lose and to sacrifice to make us feel for them and care about their choices. You seem however to be equating heroism with results, not motivations. It's possible to be heroic and fail every time. It is refusing to compromise on values that serve the greater good at your own expense, even when it costs you dearly, that makes you heroic. Always doing things successfully that benefit others may not always be heroic. Doing something to achieve your own ends, which coincidentally helps others is not heroism. Annikin was successful a lot because he was extremely powerful. When he placed himself at great risk to achieve a goal of helping others, he was being heroic. When he sought to satisfy his own needs, maybe at the expense of some others, and his actions coincidentally helped some people, he wasn't being heroic, even though he may have been successful in both cases. When he was younger, he was more often selfless and less often selfish, so he was more heroic. As he got older and became more corrupted, he acted more often for his own desires, status and recognition and less often purely for the greater good at his own expense, so he was less heroic, even though he still achieved great things. He was still just as successful, but he began acting more for his own benefit and advancement, and less for the good of others. When he didn't receive praise, recognition, status and power for his actions, he became angry. This is when he was acting for himself, not for others, even though his actions may have been beneficial to others. This doesn't make him a hero, because he is not personally sacrificing anything to help others. I think the sacrifice element is an essential part of being heroic. I think what Thor was saying was that if we make our heroes as flawed as us and willing to compromise their values as much as we do, then, yes, they are very relatable to us, because they ARE us. They're not heroes anymore (unless we are all heroes). They're just normal. If we set our bar of heroism so low that we allow our heroes to be as compromised as we are, they can't function as heroes and inspire us to be better, because we're already at their level. We have to set our heroes' bar at a level that is inspiring to us and makes us feel inadequate about our own behaviour so much that we want to change ourselves. Our heroes can't make the same excuses we do, or we'll continue to use them to justify our current standards of behaviour. We need 'stretch goals', goals we can't currently achieve to change ourselves. Just because someone is successful, doesn't make them a hero. Being someone that we want to be, doesn't make them heroic, especially if they didn't achieve by doing heroic deeds. There are a lot of gangsters who are rich and powerful and successful. We might want to have what they have, live their lifestyles, but that doesn't make them heroes. Sports stars and movie stars who get paid millions of dollars to do something they love and are good at are not heroes, even if they have to work hard to do what they do. They are not giving up anything to attain what they have. People who risk their lives to protect the lives of others are heroes, even if there's no way in the world we would want to be them. People who do things we are not prepared to do in order to provide a benefit to others are heroic, even if it costs them money to do it. I think it is the motivation and the willingness to sacrifice something of your own to provide a positive benefit to others that makes someone a hero. Yes, we can relate and empathise if they share characteristics with us, but they will not be heroes if they don't do what we are not prepared to do in order to help others. They have to shame us to make us want to change. Without that, no matter what we call them, they are an infatuation, not a hero.
While you were talking about the [sith like] people always wanting more power and more stuff, all I could think of was Sokka saying, "I do believe in the power of stuff." -Don't remember what episode that was. On a serious note, -excellent video. I really like how you drew out the morality and ethics from these stories to give them great meaning.
I interpreted Luke’s ultimatum as “are you willing to give this up” he wasn’t saying he’d never see him again he was asking are you willing to let him go because you may not see him again. There’s a difference in there subtle but it’s there. I mean he trained leia so he obviously doesn’t have the same view on the topic as some Jedi do.
@@chasehedges6775 how is it out of character Luke would have died because of his attachments if vader wasn't his father The jedi order died because the jedi were distant from anakin and he had attachments so he couldn't talk them about it and eventually he had to choose Luke fixed the mistake and became less distant but has the no attachment rule because he knows that unless people get lucky like him their attachments will stop them from being good jedi
@@chasehedges6775 ya I can see that. I can go ether way. It’s weird when it comes to how he handled Vader. It kind felt like Luke is trying to figure out what his order should be like. What rules to keep, what to throw out, and what to modify. But if that’s the case they should’ve made that more clear.
@@minerpvpgaming2160 It's out of character because Luke's move forward is to encourage family, not tell people if they're a Jedi they can't have attachments, or if they want attachments they can't be a Jedi. That was not Luke Skywalker, it's Jake Skywalker all over again. I'm done with corporate cannon. Fuck Disney! In the end, they don't choose, the fans do.
@@sporgultimes2 I feel that he was not saying no attachments. More that he was asking was Grogu willing to give up his attachments when they threatened the greater good. I feel the choice wasn’t about having no attachments but if his attachments would cloud his judgment if he had to make a difficult choice. Like a trolley problem with the galaxy on one side and your loved ones on the other. The old Jedi would just argue that there would be no problem if you don’t have attachments in the first place.
“With great power comes great reward.” -Norman Osborn (Ultimate Spider-Man) Just wanted to add this quote that I think describes the difference between Jedi and Sith philosophy in very few words.
Qui-Gon is about as perfect as you can get as a Jedi. Follows the will of the Force, understands the importance of caring for others, and isn't restricted by legalistic rules from the Jedi Order. EU Luke is excellent as well, but the Disney/Mando Luke is not. He pushes the same bullshit Jedi code on Grogu that he should knot better is beyond flawed and responsible for the collapse of the Jedi order itself.
I think you're right to say that Disney doesn't understand Luke, let alone the Jedi, bc what Luke says about them in TLJ sounds similar to the way the fans talk about the council. (Sorry this is long) Tell me if I'm wrong: Having a different opinion from others is not the same as being incompatible with them, therefore was the Jedi Order arrogant & dogmatic or were they shortsighted? Before I insult anyone, I'm not hating on Qui gon. Jedi like Plo, Eeth Coth, or Shaak Ti were ethical independent thinking people. I'm pretty sure all Jedi did what they thought/felt was best. It was Mace through the movies & show that did most of the talking & made stupid calls, yet we think the whole council is like that. I'm not saying do away with the chain of command, but I think it did the Order a lot of good having various views with or without Qui Gon. Qui Gon could've had a limited view just as much as any other Jedi. So I have to side with Cal Kestis, that everyone makes mistakes, we should just accept it as a part of everyone's lives, & forgive. 'Good guy' doesn't mean perfection.
I think luke was clearly conflicted about sending grogu down that path and game him the choice of what to do. He didn’t push it on him he gave grogu a choice to do Jedi training, and his only knowledge on that is from yoda, so of course the training is going to be similar.
BOBF had young Jake Skywalker. Whereas Mando had Luke. Who makes these stupid decisions. Or maybe he was always going to be Jake Skywalker because everything in Disney Star Wars leads to those movies.
Makes you really wonder if Qui Gon was still alive would Dooku have fallen under Sidious's sway or would Qui Gon be able to convince Dooku to become a Grey Jedi and go off on a different path...or maybe Dooku would have been able to convince Qui Gon the Repubic was rotten and Dooku now has an ally against Palpatine who's a lot harder to corrupt to the Dark Side.
Grey Jedi don't even exist in Legends, never mind canon. They are always Force users who find some virtue in sitting on their ass. And Dooku had Fallen by the time he killed Sifo-Dyas, who was killed during Vallorum's time in office AKA before Episode I.
Grey Jedi is just plain wrong, please stop insisting on it. The Dark Sider is like a cancer in the human body, it’s natural but should never be “indulged” ou be left alone, it must be erradicated. A good and well balanced body doesn’t have 50% cancer cells and 50% healthy cells, and so the Force in balance means 100% light side
I think something else related to politics would've pushed him to his breaking point if not the Saifo Dias thing. (Sorry for misspelling). I know CW revealed Dooku was behind him disappearing, but pretending it got messed up some other way.😊
Thor, well said. Great example one being a "hero," has the attitudes of humility and service to others serves as the foundation on which fuels why a true hero is a hero. Many times real life heroes are asked if they think of themselves as hero. Each and everyone of them said, "No." They did what they did because it was what needed to be done for a person(s) who desperately needed that help. And that helping person sensed a responsibility to help and serve/ sacrificed what they could in response to help that person in the context of relationships of their community and our own as well. That's the way Qui-gon and Luke attempted to live their lives for others. This is the Way!
100% agree with this. People forget that a small minority of people would be fit to be Jedi. It takes huge personal sacrifices to become one, including sacrificing personal relationships. They do it for the greater good, not for themselves. I think people who didn't like the choice Luke gave Grogu don't understand that with great power comes the responsibility of personal sacrifice in order to help others. If you are unwilling to make that sacrifice, you probably shouldn't be trained to hone that immense power.
@@shugaroony And yet that is what ultimately did the Order in. Their detachment and stagnancy left them unprepared to face the new breed of Sith like Palpatine and woefully unprepared to train someone like Anakin. I prefer Luke's order in the EU. He courged relationships. Marriage even. That having those connections were not in and of themselves bad. That they can be a source of strength. Yes the life of a Jedi is a hard one and it requires one to give up much of themselves in order to make it so others don't have to but and this is my personal feelings on it but even those who are selfless should be entitled to SOME happiness in their personal life.
@@Webshooters1 Jedi are happy with their lot, their selfless nature and altruism gives them great joy and meaning to their lives. They don't need relationships for all that. Were Kit Fisto, Tera Sinube, Plo Koon etc depressed because they weren't with anyone? Far from it. The issues of the Jedi's downfall weren't their methods, only that they became increasingly tied - attached you might say - to the Republic and the politics, instead of following the will of the force. The only one who struggled was Anakin BECAUSE he let ego get in the way, wanted his cake and eat it, and never listened to his teachings, apart from when he was with Palpatine ironically. In other words, Anakin was a bit of an idiot.
This video is so good. One of my favorites from the channel. Great topic and analysis of it. Obviously, stories of heroes have been a defining part of my life and many others. This explains why that are and even exist in the first place. Absolutely loved it!
Great video. I had a bit of a hard time with Luke's decision, but see your point. The other possibility I thought of when thinking about the episode later was that Luke might have learned more about the Mandolorian culture from Ashoka or other sources, & recognized that if Grogu continued his close attachment with Djin, he would be more & more shaped by that culture over time. The Mandolorian culture is in sharp contrast with the Jedi culture, so Luke could have been very concerned that Grogu choosing this specific attachment could have resulted in a mindset opposed to Jedi teachings.
Haha so true about influencers vs inspiration. I believe the 'with great power' quote is based on the Bible's 'to whom much is given, more is required' Spidey has been my favorite in Marvel since a little kid All in all an excellent analysis of these characters and the values they represent. 👍
I'm putting together a Star Wars RPG campaign for my friends set around 35 ABY. I basically get to write my own ST. In my canon, Luke doesn't re-establish the Jedi, but rather creates a different group called the Knights of Kenobi. The fundamental difference is that they follow the teachings of Qui-Gon Jinn about the living Force. The Knights dedicate themselves to follow the will of the Force rather than dedicating themselves to dogma like the Jedi.
I firmly believe that Qui-gon surviving would have prevented Anakin from falling to the dark side. Qui-gon was the last true jedi of his era, and I know that's a bold claim given people like Obi-wan and Yoda and Mace Windu being around at the same time, but in reality all of them fell into the trap of following the will of the Senate and Jedi Council over the will of the force. That is why the jedi order needed to be destroyed in order to start again under Luke. Anakin reset the board so to speak, since the sith unbalance the force simply by existing. Balance of course isn't even parts light and dark (pay attention, sequels...), its letting go of the self and following the will of the force above all else, even if the Senate were 100% pure and righteous. Balance allows the force to flow through the jedi, not just be used by them.
Agreed, the Clone Wars council became too embroiled in politics and lost touch with what they were supposed to do, follow the Will of the Force and protect the people of the Galaxy. A true Jedi wouldn't care if the Separatists wanted to leave the Republic. They would only work to protect the people, not go on the offensive in attempt to force the Separatist systems to rejoin the Republic.
I agree. But also Qui-Gon would have been the catalyst also because he understood the need to nurture Anakin and help him overcome his fears and guide him like a father would. Obi was too young and irritated with Anakin's presence. When he made the promise to train Anakin he didn't see what Anakin needed and trained him in a typical way that wasn't reaching the heart of Anakin's issues. And I don't blame Obi but it just goes to show the caliber of Jedi is also an important component in how you train the next generation.
I think saying Qui-Gon was the last true Jedi of his era is a bit harsh. The Jedi as a whole fell into the trap of serving the Senate, a trap of their own making via the Ruusan Reformations if we're going by Legends history, but I would argue that you put too much blame on the individuals. They did not choose to follow the will of the Senate over that of the Force, nor did they conflate the two; they were raised in a system where the Senate was above them in the decision-making hierarchy, and they accepted that as the way things were and did their best to follow the will of the Force within the limits set by the law without even realizing that there was another option. That was their mistake, and a very big mistake, but not to my mind one that disqualifies them from being true Jedi. The system still had to be completely restructured, probably violently, and that was ultimately one of Anakin's purposes (restore balance to the Jedi by tearing them down and letting someone else start over; restore balance to the Sith by destroying both members of the Rule of Two, collapsing them empire that supported all the acolytes, and re-creating a more militant and proactive version of the Jedi Order).
Very insightful post. Really enjoyed the connection you drew between two complete different universes. This kind of video keeps me coming back. Great work.
This is a perfect accuracy of comparing the Jedi and the Sith to selfless and selfish people in our own world, people who crave that money, power, and status will probably get jealous of others who do have it and those who already sometimes there's a chance aching corrupt them and even push other people away from them and my own opinion this is the reason why it's good to have some people in your life to keep you grounded, humble and in reality.
Wow first off this was eerie, just today for no particular reason I google for Spiderman's first appearance ever, and you video starts on that very image. Took me a minute to reconcile it all :) Then, I love the parallel you're making here, not only for Grogu's choice (who wants to spend time with someone who doesn't want it as much? It isn't fair to either party. And it really goes for everything in life btw) but for this great quote "The purpose of a hero is not to be more like us, but for us to be more like them". Some of today's Hollywood screenwriters should take a few notes here.
inspire is to amplify someone's dedication to a path of their own choosing (the jedi ideal, yes; but what is canonical jedi practice?) influence is to make sure that someone is walking the path you want them to walk (sith all the way, the jedi were actually a proxy of the sith, the jedi were just too full of themselves to realize what tools they became in practice) nobody ever says "under the inspiration of..." such and such when people say "under the influence of..." such and such, they usually mean it in a bad way I liked your differentiation of these two similar, yet distinct, concepts the power struggle is what creates the power creep that we've seen throughout the real life production timeline of the starwars movies, the force became a plot device instead of a philosophy mandalorian season 3 hidden inside bobf seems to make up for this: in that Luke gave Grogu the choice, when most padawans were taken from their families simply because of their ability to control the force, not just sense it
Hmmmmm I think I get what you’re saying, and it’s certainly in keeping with what OG Lucas has said publicly. But it still makes me wonder about RotJ. Only Luke’s attachment saved his father from Luke’s wrath, and pulled Luke back from the brink of temptation. I hope they’ll elaborate more on this as Star Wars continues. There is perhaps more to the Jedi philosophy to be revealed.
Exactly. One in a thousand of us have what it takes. To be clear, I am not one of them. But I can admit and understand it. Being a Jedi would be nearly impossible. If you want to be one for the sake of glory, you've already lost. Deal with it.
It both amazes me and horryfies me that many writers specially in Hollywood either fail to see or ignore what it is that makes a hero. But due to recent and continous developments I am hopeful that we will get back stories with heroes and heroins that inspire.
For a very, very, very brief second, I thought the introduction with Spider Man had him saving Luke Skywalker and I about produced bricks from my nether regions. Then I realized it was a segue. WHEW.
Grogu is about 50, from a species we know can live to 900, to put it from a human perspective, he is a 5 year old, how many 5 year olds would have the maturity to give up everything they know and love in exchange for power, and yes, the lightsabre is power. Luke was asking Grogu to choose between power and friendship. If Grogu lives out the rest of Din Jarin's life with him, then joins the Jedi, he would still be training as a 10 year old (human equivalent) having already had TWO DECADES of training from great Jedi Masters of the Old Republic. If Grogu had chosen the lightsabre he would have been choosing power, what are the implications of that? Would Old Republic Jedi have offered a simular choice, or was it just a case of "You are strong with the force so you will train as a Jedi" Youngling "I want my mummy" Master "No, you have the potential to become a great Jedi so will train to be a Jedi weather you want to or not"
I personally think Obi-Wan is the greatest Jedi. He gets tested as much, perhaps even moreso than Luke, and at each point gets stronger and a more complete Jedi. I agree with Thor on his points though and thats something people forget when watching Star Wars, they want to see people like Anakin and Grogu, have their cake and eat it, without seeing the bigger picture of what being a Jedi actually entails.
I prefer Legends Luke Skywalker. Despite his ridiculous power scale, he goes through a much better arc that makes him very wise. Oh, and he never gives up hope.
Hey Thor did you notice the comment I posted on your Thor skywalker plus video that was released today. Basically what I asked is at this point what day seems the most likely for the nihilus video to be released
You know what I really really like the "The purpose of a hero is not for them to be more like us, but for us to be more like them" especially nowadays I think this is completely missed in writing often
As somebody who saw the original Star War film in 1977 as a child (I still cannot get used to calling it "A New Hope"), I've always struggled with the notion of the Jedi having to abandon all personal attachment. This was never a concept of the original trilogy. Lucas created this notion when he was trying to flesh out how he would present the Jedi Order in the prequels. This was obviously not how Luke approached his Jedi Knighthood in TESB and ROTJ, and it ultimately worked out to his benefit. I don't necessarily have a problem with the retconning of the Jedi Order of the Old Republic as an organization of individuals who eschew personal attachment. Okay. Fine. I'm sure it's been heavily expounded upon in Expanded Universe novels that I never read. But I do find it odd that Luke Skywalker, in his attempts to rebuild the Jedi Order, would return to such a policy that clearly didn't work in the past and directly led to the creation of Darth Vader. The Jedi, as portrayed in the prequels, were a morally bankrupt Order who had no issues creating a slave army to fight their wars for them and had become so blind that they couldn't foresee their own downfall. Why would Luke want to look to their example when building the foundation of a New Jedi Order? It makes no sense to me given the nature of the Luke Skywalker that I remember from the end of ROTJ. If anything, I think that that Luke would have tempered some of the requirements of the Old Order, especially the one that forbid personal attachments. If nothing else, at least THAT requirement. What we have in all of this is an attempt to reconcile two trilogies that were written decades apart by a fellow who had the tendency to retconn on the fly. This is usually not such a big problem and can be dealt with through clever writing. However, this bit of inconsistency deals with the very nature of Luke Skywalker, one of the principle figures in the saga. Luke posing that choice to Grogu seems out of character, at least without knowledge of what might have changed Luke's character in the intervening years since the end of ROTJ. A character can change drastically in a narrative, but it must be shown, otherwise it feels unearned and makes no sense, just as Luke's transformation into Jake Skywalker in The Last Jedi made no sense. The shift in character that we see when Luke is interacting with Grogu . . . well, it seems to me that he's already 15% of the way to becoming Jake Skywalker.
Luke redoing the problems with the Jedi Order is honestly the worst thing that they could have done with the story. The whole point is for him to learn and grow beyond the old ways and see the value in connections with his friends that helped him overthrow the Empire.
Name them. Site the exact moment that the Prequel Jedi did something wrong and then when Luke did it wrong and why it was wrong. I am still waiting for someone to name one thing. And don't say "forbidding Attachments." Learn what Attachment means in Buddhism. It is the exact same definition Jedi use. Anakin had Attachments and they destroyed him and everyone he supposedly cared about.
@@jeffreymeehan3116 Buddhism isn't perfect. The whole concept of spending decades trying to reach enlightenment in some remote monastery is the epitome of selfishness.
I kinda agree. I think they did that to explain why the order fell in the Sequels. Long story short, I was totally in the dark before I watched these discussions. So I think very few people understand the Jedi and the selfish vs selfless idea, few are open minded to their unique culture/ideals. Regardless of which argument we go with, 1) that letting Grogu choose is better than making him stay, 2) that he didn't learn from the Jedi's mistakes, 3) that the Jedi had the rule bc of people like Anakin popping up, etcetera, I think Disney just doesn't understand the Jedi any better than the fans. I feel like fans have so many different opinions bc the way the poor explanation around the prequel Jedi, so Disney never really had a basis for how to view the Jedi, so we have Luke abandoning the Jedi way, Ahsoka never taking up either Jedi or sith mantles, and fans siding with the villains who's narrative job is to be wrong/flawed.
There were so many people upset that Grogu left Din. And part of those same people were angry that Luke gave Grogu a choice to choose his own fate. Why? Grogu was obviously missing Din and wanted to be with him. Luke saw this and did the right thing.
Because it renders the season 2 finale of Mandalorian pointless. Imagine someone in the future binge watching the complete series of The Mandalorian and how disappointed and confused they'll be at the heartfelt goodbye of the season 2 finale only for Grogu to be back with Din in the next episode. And Grogu missing Din is not a good reason to send him back. Luke should have fought harder to teach Grogu to let go of attachments. Grogu's enormous lifespan presents an incredible opportunity for the restoration of the Jedi after all. Besides, unless Din becomes a cyborg or something, he'll be dead from old age before Grogu is even at preschool age.
@@vetarlittorf1807 Yes, the narrative of the show made it seem like the finale was pointless but it wasn't. That finale showed that both Din and Grogu could let go even though they love each other. For Grogu letting go proved he wasn't attached as Ahsoka feared. But for Din it proved Grogu's health and well-being means more to him than his own wants. Could they have forgone their reunion until S3 of the Mandalorian? Yes, and in many ways I wish they had. My point was they were not upset because Grogu reunited with Din, they were upset because Luke made Grogu choose and they wanted Grogu to have both because they did not understand the path of a Jedi As to Grogu should not have made that choice because he needs to become of the restoration of the Jedi order, I disagree. Grogu gets to choose what he wants, not what others want of him. It isn't his responsibility to take up that mantle. And because of all the trauma of his past, I think Grogu deserves to heal and be happy for a time until he decides if he wants to train again. I think the choice also fully solidifies that Luke actually cares about the choices of his students. Foregone are the ways of taking children who are force sensitive for the sake of the Jedi order. We don't want more Anakin's. We want people to understand what it means to be Jedi before making the lifelong commitment. Anyway, just because Grogu is with Din now doesn't mean he can't train later. He has a millennium to make his own choices.
@@jeremyallen492 That's not what got them all slaughtered. The reason they failed Anakin is because Obi-Wan failed to teach him how to deal with his fears. Had he been assigned to a better mentor, he would have had a better time letting go of attachments. On top of that, the reason why it was hard for Anakin to let go of attachments is because he started his training so old. Whereas Grogu is an infant and therefore it's easier to teach him to let go of attachments.
When I was thinking about attachment, and how I seem to disagree with Thor Skywalker on the subject, I ran across this short video from Jordan Peterson that might fill in the gap between the harsh, overbearing Jedi attitude toward attachment in the prequel era and what I think the Jedi like Luke and Qui-Gon actually meant when they spoke about attachment. Give this clip a watch: ruclips.net/user/shortsPqainn1STTk?feature=share
I think you just described the vast majority of RUclips content creators with this upload. I wouldn’t quite say they are all Sith but I do feel the majority certainly only look out for themselves.
The "no attachments" rule still is superfluous to me and causes more problems that it's worth. There's plenty of careers where you expect people to put the needs of others above your own and those of your own family, where you expect them to be selfless. So I think the rule was a plot device in "Phantom Menace" to separate Anakin from his mother. It is directly responsible for his fall to the Dark Side - had they taken Shmi with them, had they allowed Anakin to visit his mother every second weekend or something, he would have profited.
This has major “old man yells at cloud” energy. But since you asked, I think it was within character for Luke to make Grogu choose between being a Jedi and a Mandalorian. However, it wasn’t the direction I thought the story should have taken.
Not really. The OT established Luke as a character that thinks beyond the black and white teachings of the Jedi. It's why he chose to spare Anakin instead of doing as Yoda and Obi Wan said and kill him to destroy the monster that their dogmatic arrogance had created.
If I was in Star Wars galaxy post Return of the Jedi I would definitely join Luke Jedi order got nothing else to do with my life plus it not like Luke Jedi aren’t allowed to fall in love and having family of there own down the line because I believe the Jedi can love like any other person in the end they are people too it all about how they be responsible with that love. If the force for the Jedi is “Great power comes great responsibility” then love for the Jedi is “ Great love comes with Greater responsibility” if the Jedi of old taught their students the difference between selfless and selfish love things would be different like if Anakin had talk with Padme tell her “You important to me Padme and I love you forever more so that why live without me.” When Anakin betray the republic and the Jedi he wasn’t thinking of Padme he was thinking of himself and that the trap of the dark side selfishness. It part of being a Jedi to persevere when times are tough including falling in love you have to live with the consequences of your actions either glorious or tragic but never forget you can fix your mistakes cause the choices you make in life is what defines who you are and yourself character.
Luke: “I give you the choice, return to the Jedi, and give up all you’ve gained as sacrifice to save others if it is called for; or leave the Jedi path behind, and return to your found family. Are you able to be a hero? Do you want to be a hero? You don’t have to be, but I would like you to join me, but I understand if you chose not to sacrifice more after all you’ve experienced.” Grogu: “thank you, for the teachings, and helping me. I am not yet ready to sacrifice to help others. I have a family, and I want to return to my family. Perhaps we will cross paths again, master Skywalker. May the Force be with you.” Luke sacrificed his student to better help his student.
Luke bribing Grogu with Yoda's saber was a disturbing, unnecessary memberberry. What's also interesting is that Luke is actually applying the lesson of both his and his fathers transgressions, which is that giving up one's attachments is easier when one's affairs are in order. Luke left Dagobah, because the burden of becoming a Jedi became too much to bear, and he couldn't come back before setting his own affairs outside of the Jedi's duty in order. Anakin fell because he tried, and failed, to balance two mutually contradictory positions, and could only let his son be his own man and make his own decisions once Luke showed his father that he can. Luke offering Grogu to stop being a Jedi, if being one is too much is the right thing to do. However, with Anakin the situation is more complicated. It's easy to assume that someone who is in the Jedi temple, undergoing Jedi training, despite the ability to leave at a moments notice and said training making it easier to do so is commited to it. Doubly so when you have never formed attachments, and thus your ability to deal with the ones someone has formed has atrophied.
I believe that Luke is testing Grogu about whether he would make decisions based on ambition or would he be inclined to value loyalty and personal relationships over a self serving lifestyle. Grogu has many years to choose to complete his training should his foundling experience end and the Jedi school determine he has remained faithful to the practices of their order. It is like comparing Asoka to Count Dukoo. After all Luke has experienced, which of these two would he accept as a student? If there is one thing Asoka can offer to the Jedi Academy, it is a first hand experience about the misuse of Force Powers with a skill and service vs political manipulation based hierarchy
The problem isn't 'it's not fair, he should have both', the problem is it doesn't fit Luke's characterization. Luke grew up training as a Jedi, while being with his friends. His deep connection to his friends and family is what got him to turn Vader back, saving his father. Now, they're having him be a hypocrite, saying Grogu is either a Jedi or he cares for his adopted father, one or the other. That's not Luke. Why can't he train as a Jedi, while having his father visit and offer him things that can protect him? He's shaming him, just like they did with the original Jedi order! He is NOT Luke Skywalker, he is Jake Skywalker. That was actually the final straw for me. It proved they're still following the sequel trilogy. I am done. Instead, I'm enjoying fan made 'what ifs'. The fans offer much better stories than Disney ever will. I'll watch them, instead.
anyone else think that after Grogu grew up seeing the jedi order become corrupt and fall from the clones betraying them think that Grogu is a genius for leaving the jedi in favor of blaster proof amour and the warrior people who were the original seed for the clones?
I disagree with the idea that we shouldn't feel bad for the Jedi and what they sacrifice. Just because they find fulfillment in their life of giving doesn't mean we can't feel bad that they don't have the option (willingly or not) to live a normal life. Being a hero is something to be celebrated, yes, but that doesn't mean you can't feel bad that they give so much for so little return.
@@macwelch8599 No. They were hired by Kathleen Kennedy. And it's not like Disney or Lucasfilm was giving them instructions. In fact, it's obvious that there was no creative oversight whatsoever.
@@vetarlittorf1807 JJ and Johnson were just a hired guns, following the will of Kathleen Kennedy and her agenda. And Disney fully supported that agenda. So they are still to blame for what was done.
Luke: "I can't kill my own father " Obi-Wan: "Then the emperor has already won." This is what made people angry about Luke following the old Jedi teaching about no attachment and Jedi cannot love. Luke knows, first-hand, that this is wrong. Love for his father, and his father's love for his son, is what allowed Anakin Skywalker to redeem himself. To have Luke just parrot the opposite of what he knows to be true is what makes the scene so infuriating.
Im 99% sure if Qui gon lives Anakin doesn't fall. Shame we didn't get more on screen. Amazing 2 of the best characters came from Phantom Menace and both died.
Hear hear, your comment of being destined to be ruled by villains rang a bit too true, hits me in da real life man, great video though!!! Heroes are where we should aim, not aim for them to just be average.
One point I don't see people making about Grogu's choice is that Luke KNOWS what happened to Anakin (maybe not all the details but enough). Anakin was in a very bad place (slavery) when he was offered the chance to become a Jedi (whom he idolized) & was also on a time limit to make his decision. Also Qui-Gon & Shmi were both pushing him to leave as there would not be another chance to. I think Luke understands that Grogu (much like Anakin) was not prepared to make that kind of commitment but that the door is open for him to return at a later date.
This argument only works assuming that people (especially humans, but perhaps aliens as well) can find enough purpose and satisfaction out of life in service to the force to outweigh the loss and lack of deep connection that is only possible through "attachment" such as interpersonal relationships and families. I don't think this perspective accurately reflects reality. Although there are examples of people removing themselves from such relationships for a greater purpose (Nirvana, celibate service to God, etc) these people are relatively rare and often end up psychologically damaged or incomplete. I think this is evidenced by clergy abusing minors and other horrible things out of the incompleteness of removing oneself from the relationships essential for flourishing and self-fulfillment. In my opinion, such incompleteness is inherently created by the "sacrifice" that is required by the Jedi Order. Not only that, but even accepting that some people out there are perfectly fulfilled and sane without the type of human connection denied by the Jedi Order, the odds of such a seemingly rare personality type also being born with force abilities strong enough to train in the Jedi Order seems astronomical. It would appear to me that in such a system, we would end up with a lot more Anakins than Obi-Wans. Perhaps I'm incorrect here, but I always viewed Qui-Gon as a more true follower of the Force, and that additional restrictions placed upon force wielders by the Order are comparable to the Pharisees adding their own restrictions on top of the Law of Moses, which distracted from the purpose of the Law. (At least, according to Christianity). This means that I loosely compare Qui-Gon to Jesus and the Jedi Council during the time of the prequels as the corrupt, pharisaical members of the Sanhedrin during the time of Jesus. Maybe I'm way off the mark, but my studies in psychology as well as my anecdotal experience leads me to believe that the Jedi Order would never have lasted as long as it did if its members share any resemblance to the psychological and social needs of real people. However, what I really love about Star Wars is that I can hold my view of the story and its characters at the same time as someone like Thor Skywalker without interrupting their enjoyment of the series. I don't agree with a few fundamental things that he believes about the Star Wars universe, but I love that it ultimately brings joy to both of us.
No Jedi made Anakin be a Jedi. The Jedi are free to do what they want, but if what they want doesn't fit with the life of a Jedi, they can't be a Jedi. Obi Wan was willing to leave the Order if Satine asked because he knew that he couldn't be with her and be a Jedi. Anakin was unwilling to give up either Padme or the Jedi. I don't view Luke or Qui-Gon above any other Jedi because they aren't offering anything new. No Jedi forces anyone to think or act like them, or even to accept their way of life. Any who does is not a Jedi.
My problem with Luke making Grogue choose between being a jedi and a mandalorian isn't that he MADE him choose, it's that he LET him choose. Grogu is a literal baby, 50 years is still in infancy for that species. Grogu is NOT old enough to make that enormous life decision for himself. Luke should have just kept the armor secret until Grogu was old enough to decide for himself
@@paulrasmussen8953 I don't buy that. Vader tracked down Jedi who escaped order 66. And the clones would have had a harder time with the temple without him. More Jedi would have survived if Kenobi had listened to Yoda and let Anakin go.
@@dahelmang nonthe Jedi's ridged adherence t9 their dogma dooms them. Palps set this all up. More jedi MIGHT survive bit overall doomed with the clone trap
@@paulrasmussen8953 their adherence to the code is what allowed them to keep the peace for 1000 years. It wasn't until they broke the code to allow Anakin in that they fell.
@@dahelmang but before that leadnto repeatednwars between them and the sith. A sith that keptncoming from jedi ranks. That 1000 years is because Banr changed strategies
"The purpose of a hero is not for them to be more like us, but for us to be more like them."
-Thor (the smart one)
Well said.
FACTS.
I’ve always felt that Luke and Qui-Gon have been the example of what a Jedi should be. Obi-Wan and Yoda while being legendary and great Jedi, lacked the full vision for following the will of the force rather than the council, as we saw in episode 1.
And Luke in ep. 6 wanted to save his father rather than kill him which was also different than what Yoda and Obi-Wan originally intended.
I struggle with when a character feels forced into being a hero, which is why I love Luke and Qui-Gonn for doing this kind of stuff for Anakin and Grogu. People that choose where to go make the path and struggle their own.
I think of Hawkeye's scene in Age of Ultron when he tells Wanda that stepping out the door makes her a hero, but she didn't have to go out if she wasn't ready. I'll need to rewatch it to have a better idea of what happens there since I don't remember how exactly that scene feels.
I like the idea of showing someone they can be a hero if they're willing to step into a new way of life. It makes those who take that step and struggle onto the path become inspirations, yet those who decide to not take that path don't become monsters. Those who choose the path of a hero aren't necessarily better than those who don't; instead, they will have different challenges as well as opportunities because of the responsible use of their power.
I like it a lot.
I love your definition of a hero here, that they sacrifice what they love so others don’t have to and they don’t expect others to make the hard choices they do
Luke Skywalker is an iconic hero and Mark Hamill is a legend.
Agreed
@@lukeskywalkerfarmboy1532 💯💯💯💯💯. This is the way
Totally agree with this comment!
I still remember the time he sent me an autograph, it really lifted my spirits. He didn't have to do that and he didn't charge me any money.
I imagine if we saw an 60/70-year old Luke but he was still happy, idealistic, and wore his ROTJ outfit/robes.
I think Luke would have gotten a new outfit in 40-50 years. I imagine an old Luke who has stuck to his Jedi beliefs would be called serine instead of happy. He certainly would trust more in the Force. I don't know if he would still be considered idealistic then. Maybe more along the lines of following where the Will of the Force takes him.
@@fattiger6957 Interesting point
I still can't wrap my head around the Luke that we see in ROTJ and Book of Boba Fett is the same Luke we see in the last jedi
@@RevanMartinez It really is an inconsistency with Luke character blame Rian Johnson that his version of Luke not the real Luke Skywalker.
@@RevanMartinez The difference is that the people who wrote Luke in the show actually care about the character and have some respect. Roundhead Johnson and Kathy have zero respect for anything. Roundhead was more interested in pissing off "toxic fans" with his "subversions" while Kathy only wanted to promote her agenda while marginalizing everything Lucas created.
I'm not so sure that Grogu's choosing to return to Mando puts an end to the idea of his training under Luke. Luke may have presented the choice to Grogu to help Grogu understand himself better. We didn't actually see what happened when Grogu made the choice and what Luke said to him afterward.
That's what I was thinking. And when Luke put in to perspective Din's shorter life, I think Grogu decided to be with Din while he could then after continue his training at a later date. It's a reasonable compromise.
@@ViolettaVie if your theory is correct then force ghost Luke guiding Grogu to complete his Jedi training makes a post ST Jedi order quite possible
@@Jedishill680 Definitely. Grogu is a special case and he deserves some happiness before he has to get serious. And the fact that he can live upwards to a thousand years, there is so much he can do to help balance the force for millennium.
@@ViolettaVie But that would make it more dangerous to train him since he gives into attachments.
@@vetarlittorf1807 I think that is the assumption, that Grogu gives into attachment. I don't think he does. Attachment is not that he loves Din because Jedi are encouraged to love. Attachment is the inability to let go and accept loss. Grogu already demonstrated that he could let go when he left Din to be trained by Luke. But when Luke gave him the choice and Grogu thought about Din's lifespan as opposed to his, Grogu seemed to want to be with Din while he can. That's not attachment. When Din inevitably dies and if Grogu does not accept that then we can say he has succumbed to attachment. At present it's just their worries that he is attached. And like I said loving someone isn't attachment. Having a bond isn't attachment.
I find it so interesting that shmi (unlike her son) made the sacrifice to give up the only one she truly loved for the greater good of the galaxy. Makes episode 1-3 feel more tragic ani couldn’t do the same once influenced by palps.
You think he'd get it with the heavy hints, that his mum gave him up for the greater good, his master has to let go of the love of his life especially when she is killed in front of him, and his own padawan makes the choice he never had the bottle to do.
I really like these deeper delves into Star Wars you give. While i wasnt mad i did have some similar reactions like those mentioned about Luke " knowing better" after you said " are you willing to give up what you love to ensure others do mot have to" , that is when it occured to me that would have been the perfect dialog for Luke to have told Grogu. It would jave made it seem like he cared more about giving him details about his choice and what would be asked of him.
Personally I think that the sith think something along these lines "The one who has the power is the one who make the rules"
I think the Sith argument is that someone will always make the rules, so it might as well be them. "Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven," and all that.
They don't have the ability to believe in a world where everyone agrees to abide by mutually beneficial rules and no single person is in charge.
Power is not a means, but the goal itself. You may start with intentions to use power for pure means, but no one ever takes power with the intention of relinquishing it. One doesn't set up the Dictatorship to safeguard the Revolution, one has a Revolution to establish the Dictatorship. Power has always been the end goal, and it will always be the end goal.
I will always and forever laugh at the faces of those who call themselves influencers as well as laugh at the title "influencers". Comparing them to the sith is very accurate
Yes and I will laugh ever more in the faces of thoses who needs to be influenced to have an opinion.
Granted those who have that title usually can command either power or large amounts of wealth.
So I don't think that's something to be laughed at.
Excellent video. I totally agree with your perspective on the Jedi. The ability to use the Force is a gift, and selflessness is the cost. It may seem to be an unfair cost to some, but that's not necessarily the case. You mentioned Grogu's choice and how some people have an issue with Luke presenting that choice, and that's why I decided to comment on this video.
Personally, I just don't like how Disney/Lucasfilm has handled the character of Luke Skywalker. If the sequel trilogy didn't exist, I would have definitely wanted Grogu to remain with Luke and train to be a Jedi. Unfortunately, we know how Luke's Jedi Academy ends, and I don't want Grogu to meet that same fate. Until there has been some sort of major retcon that eliminates the sequel trilogy from canon, we know that Luke Skywalker and all of his apprentices come to a brutal end. Grogu's lifespan is so long, that he could live an entire lifetime with Din Djarin, and still become a Jedi for another 700 or 800 years. The future of Star Wars, and the Jedi revolves completely around Grogu at this point in time. I guess fans of the sequel trilogy may disagree with that, and say that Rey Palpatine Skywalker is the future, but I hate the character so much that I simply can't accept that. I think it would make more sense to make Rey a Sith Lord than the leader and future of the Jedi Knights. I mean, really, who uses Force Lightning by accident anyway?????
Choices and decisions we make in life aren't always easy or clear-cut. Rarely do our choices include the ability to select all of the options, but instead exclude many if not all of the other available options. I respect Luke's decision to give Grogu the choice between the lightsaber and the life of a Jedi or the armor and the way of the Mandalore. I think he based his decision based on what he had largely learned on his own and his own compassion. The selfish choice would have been to keep Mando's gift a secret from Grogu and force him into becoming a Jedi. I'm sure Luke sensed Grougu's attachment to Mando, much like Ahsoka did and rightly chose to allow Grogu to decide his own future, or at least his immediate future. Grogu has a long life span and has the potential to be the catalyst for many future SW stories, including an eventual life as a Jedi...a Mandalorian Jedi would be even cooler.
That's the thing though: 1) you say we shouldn't lower our standards of heroes, 2) that if we lower our standards for our heroes, they become villains, 3) not everyone can be a hero, 4) regardless, we should all strive to be heroes.
That's kind of the issue that Anakin ran into, though. He was striving to be a hero, grabbing power on the way, until it wasn't tenable for him anymore. Once he realized he couldn't get there, he fell apart.
Luke chose his friends/family over the Jedi... twice.
I'd argue the purpose of heroes is not to be perfect, shining ideal examples. They are there to reveal how we can be better. The more relatable they are, the more they teach us. This is similar to the Mary Sue issue: you need to have your heroes struggle, make mistakes, etc to overcome them and teach us how to overcome things.
Having perfect heroes not only degrades one's ability to improve, but also discourages growth. The growth mindset is critical to improving yourself efficiently and being happy and resilient.
Not only that, but there's a reason the cliche "never meet your heroes" exists: people aren't perfect, even heroes. If you believe that perfect heroes exist, then you're more likely to be manipulated by said heroes, even if they are villains (I.E. Palpatine, Priests and people of authority who abuse power, etc).
Does that mean that we should accept people's mistakes wholesale? No. We still need to hold people accountable while being empathetic. There's a balance between just giving up on trying to be better and expecting everyone to be perfect.
Too many times I've seen people burned out because of the expectations that are put on them (self-imposed or otherwise), and they are either taken advantage of or they stop caring altogether.
First thing, quickly. When Luke chose to risk his life to save his friends / family (more than twice) over finishing his Jedi training, he was not a Jedi. He was still a Padawan learner. According to Yoda, he did not become a Jedi until after he faced Vader on the second Death Star at the end of Ep 6. Luke was still learning to be a Jedi when he made those choices.
Would he make those choices again with greater knowledge and understanding of the big picture? Maybe. Maybe not. What is true is that most Jedi who fall to the dark side do so by pursuing personal desires, either personal gain, attachments or quests to achieve some personal goal of knowledge, power or skill, and when a powerful Jedi becomes a Sith Lord, thousands, millions or even billions of innocent people have died. That is why the Jedi are so paranoid about any risk of falling to the dark side.
The result of a false negative is that one person may be disadvantaged. The result of a false positive is that billions could die. The risks are not balanced, so neither are their policies. They have to do everything to avoid the risk of a powerful Jedi falling to the dark side, which means limiting access to power / training / skills if a person shows any potential to fall.
Secondly, I think it depends on how you define a hero. I agree a hero doesn't need to be perfect and always be successful. I also agree that the more readers/viewers/fans can relate to a hero, the more that hero's actions can affect those readers/viewers/fans. Your point about Mary Sues is also a good one. No one can relate to an impossibly powerful and flawless hero (except for Superman for some reason). Our heroes need to be at risk, to lose and to sacrifice to make us feel for them and care about their choices.
You seem however to be equating heroism with results, not motivations. It's possible to be heroic and fail every time. It is refusing to compromise on values that serve the greater good at your own expense, even when it costs you dearly, that makes you heroic. Always doing things successfully that benefit others may not always be heroic. Doing something to achieve your own ends, which coincidentally helps others is not heroism.
Annikin was successful a lot because he was extremely powerful. When he placed himself at great risk to achieve a goal of helping others, he was being heroic. When he sought to satisfy his own needs, maybe at the expense of some others, and his actions coincidentally helped some people, he wasn't being heroic, even though he may have been successful in both cases.
When he was younger, he was more often selfless and less often selfish, so he was more heroic. As he got older and became more corrupted, he acted more often for his own desires, status and recognition and less often purely for the greater good at his own expense, so he was less heroic, even though he still achieved great things. He was still just as successful, but he began acting more for his own benefit and advancement, and less for the good of others.
When he didn't receive praise, recognition, status and power for his actions, he became angry. This is when he was acting for himself, not for others, even though his actions may have been beneficial to others. This doesn't make him a hero, because he is not personally sacrificing anything to help others. I think the sacrifice element is an essential part of being heroic.
I think what Thor was saying was that if we make our heroes as flawed as us and willing to compromise their values as much as we do, then, yes, they are very relatable to us, because they ARE us. They're not heroes anymore (unless we are all heroes). They're just normal.
If we set our bar of heroism so low that we allow our heroes to be as compromised as we are, they can't function as heroes and inspire us to be better, because we're already at their level.
We have to set our heroes' bar at a level that is inspiring to us and makes us feel inadequate about our own behaviour so much that we want to change ourselves. Our heroes can't make the same excuses we do, or we'll continue to use them to justify our current standards of behaviour. We need 'stretch goals', goals we can't currently achieve to change ourselves.
Just because someone is successful, doesn't make them a hero. Being someone that we want to be, doesn't make them heroic, especially if they didn't achieve by doing heroic deeds. There are a lot of gangsters who are rich and powerful and successful. We might want to have what they have, live their lifestyles, but that doesn't make them heroes. Sports stars and movie stars who get paid millions of dollars to do something they love and are good at are not heroes, even if they have to work hard to do what they do. They are not giving up anything to attain what they have.
People who risk their lives to protect the lives of others are heroes, even if there's no way in the world we would want to be them. People who do things we are not prepared to do in order to provide a benefit to others are heroic, even if it costs them money to do it. I think it is the motivation and the willingness to sacrifice something of your own to provide a positive benefit to others that makes someone a hero. Yes, we can relate and empathise if they share characteristics with us, but they will not be heroes if they don't do what we are not prepared to do in order to help others. They have to shame us to make us want to change. Without that, no matter what we call them, they are an infatuation, not a hero.
this is really really well said. I'm honestly just pissed that they made the decision to have Grogu go with Mando after all that
Same, really undermines the S2 finale of Mando
@@crowwithinternetservice exactly! it's definitely not part of my headcanon.
@@crowwithinternetservice I would argue most if not all the scenes relatable to The Mandalorian in Book of Boba Fett undermine both seasons
@@somethingfunny2199 that would be interesting video
Well it enables him to go along a different path instead of the well-trodden trope of being a padawan.
While you were talking about the [sith like] people always wanting more power and more stuff, all I could think of was Sokka saying, "I do believe in the power of stuff." -Don't remember what episode that was.
On a serious note, -excellent video. I really like how you drew out the morality and ethics from these stories to give them great meaning.
I interpreted Luke’s ultimatum as “are you willing to give this up” he wasn’t saying he’d never see him again he was asking are you willing to let him go because you may not see him again. There’s a difference in there subtle but it’s there. I mean he trained leia so he obviously doesn’t have the same view on the topic as some Jedi do.
It still doesn’t change the fact that it’s out of character.
@@chasehedges6775 how is it out of character
Luke would have died because of his attachments if vader wasn't his father
The jedi order died because the jedi were distant from anakin and he had attachments so he couldn't talk them about it and eventually he had to choose
Luke fixed the mistake and became less distant but has the no attachment rule because he knows that unless people get lucky like him their attachments will stop them from being good jedi
@@chasehedges6775 ya I can see that. I can go ether way. It’s weird when it comes to how he handled Vader. It kind felt like Luke is trying to figure out what his order should be like. What rules to keep, what to throw out, and what to modify. But if that’s the case they should’ve made that more clear.
@@minerpvpgaming2160 It's out of character because Luke's move forward is to encourage family, not tell people if they're a Jedi they can't have attachments, or if they want attachments they can't be a Jedi. That was not Luke Skywalker, it's Jake Skywalker all over again. I'm done with corporate cannon. Fuck Disney! In the end, they don't choose, the fans do.
@@sporgultimes2 I feel that he was not saying no attachments. More that he was asking was Grogu willing to give up his attachments when they threatened the greater good.
I feel the choice wasn’t about having no attachments but if his attachments would cloud his judgment if he had to make a difficult choice.
Like a trolley problem with the galaxy on one side and your loved ones on the other. The old Jedi would just argue that there would be no problem if you don’t have attachments in the first place.
“With great power comes great reward.”
-Norman Osborn (Ultimate Spider-Man)
Just wanted to add this quote that I think describes the difference between Jedi and Sith philosophy in very few words.
Fantastic dissertation on heroism! Great job, Thor.
Qui-Gon is about as perfect as you can get as a Jedi. Follows the will of the Force, understands the importance of caring for others, and isn't restricted by legalistic rules from the Jedi Order. EU Luke is excellent as well, but the Disney/Mando Luke is not. He pushes the same bullshit Jedi code on Grogu that he should knot better is beyond flawed and responsible for the collapse of the Jedi order itself.
⚡️Qui Gon used the force to win a bet for Anakin. That was not the will of the force. He paid for his arrogance with his life.⚡️
@@ironthunderbolt ooooooo
I think you're right to say that Disney doesn't understand Luke, let alone the Jedi, bc what Luke says about them in TLJ sounds similar to the way the fans talk about the council.
(Sorry this is long)
Tell me if I'm wrong: Having a different opinion from others is not the same as being incompatible with them, therefore was the Jedi Order arrogant & dogmatic or were they shortsighted?
Before I insult anyone, I'm not hating on Qui gon. Jedi like Plo, Eeth Coth, or Shaak Ti were ethical independent thinking people. I'm pretty sure all Jedi did what they thought/felt was best. It was Mace through the movies & show that did most of the talking & made stupid calls, yet we think the whole council is like that. I'm not saying do away with the chain of command, but I think it did the Order a lot of good having various views with or without Qui Gon. Qui Gon could've had a limited view just as much as any other Jedi.
So I have to side with Cal Kestis, that everyone makes mistakes, we should just accept it as a part of everyone's lives, & forgive. 'Good guy' doesn't mean perfection.
I think luke was clearly conflicted about sending grogu down that path and game him the choice of what to do. He didn’t push it on him he gave grogu a choice to do Jedi training, and his only knowledge on that is from yoda, so of course the training is going to be similar.
BOBF had young Jake Skywalker. Whereas Mando had Luke. Who makes these stupid decisions. Or maybe he was always going to be Jake Skywalker because everything in Disney Star Wars leads to those movies.
Makes you really wonder if Qui Gon was still alive would Dooku have fallen under Sidious's sway or would Qui Gon be able to convince Dooku to become a Grey Jedi and go off on a different path...or maybe Dooku would have been able to convince Qui Gon the Repubic was rotten and Dooku now has an ally against Palpatine who's a lot harder to corrupt to the Dark Side.
Grey Jedi don't even exist in Legends, never mind canon. They are always Force users who find some virtue in sitting on their ass. And Dooku had Fallen by the time he killed Sifo-Dyas, who was killed during Vallorum's time in office AKA before Episode I.
Grey Jedi is just plain wrong, please stop insisting on it. The Dark Sider is like a cancer in the human body, it’s natural but should never be “indulged” ou be left alone, it must be erradicated. A good and well balanced body doesn’t have 50% cancer cells and 50% healthy cells, and so the Force in balance means 100% light side
I think something else related to politics would've pushed him to his breaking point if not the Saifo Dias thing. (Sorry for misspelling). I know CW revealed Dooku was behind him disappearing, but pretending it got messed up some other way.😊
@@jeffreymeehan3116 🤭🤭Valid.
@@jeffreymeehan3116 wrong they do exist
One of your better commentaries to be sure. Incisive and keenly felt.
Totally agree. It’s a topic many people love but taken to another level. Thor really is smart, talented and passionate.
Thor, well said. Great example one being a "hero," has the attitudes of humility and service to others serves as the foundation on which fuels why a true hero is a hero. Many times real life heroes are asked if they think of themselves as hero. Each and everyone of them said, "No." They did what they did because it was what needed to be done for a person(s) who desperately needed that help. And that helping person sensed a responsibility to help and serve/ sacrificed what they could in response to help that person in the context of relationships of their community and our own as well. That's the way Qui-gon and Luke attempted to live their lives for others. This is the Way!
100% agree with this. People forget that a small minority of people would be fit to be Jedi. It takes huge personal sacrifices to become one, including sacrificing personal relationships. They do it for the greater good, not for themselves. I think people who didn't like the choice Luke gave Grogu don't understand that with great power comes the responsibility of personal sacrifice in order to help others. If you are unwilling to make that sacrifice, you probably shouldn't be trained to hone that immense power.
Perfect summation, and it echoes my own thoughts completely on what being a Jedi entails.
@@shugaroony And yet that is what ultimately did the Order in. Their detachment and stagnancy left them unprepared to face the new breed of Sith like Palpatine and woefully unprepared to train someone like Anakin.
I prefer Luke's order in the EU. He courged relationships. Marriage even. That having those connections were not in and of themselves bad. That they can be a source of strength. Yes the life of a Jedi is a hard one and it requires one to give up much of themselves in order to make it so others don't have to but and this is my personal feelings on it but even those who are selfless should be entitled to SOME happiness in their personal life.
@@Webshooters1 Jedi are happy with their lot, their selfless nature and altruism gives them great joy and meaning to their lives. They don't need relationships for all that. Were Kit Fisto, Tera Sinube, Plo Koon etc depressed because they weren't with anyone? Far from it. The issues of the Jedi's downfall weren't their methods, only that they became increasingly tied - attached you might say - to the Republic and the politics, instead of following the will of the force. The only one who struggled was Anakin BECAUSE he let ego get in the way, wanted his cake and eat it, and never listened to his teachings, apart from when he was with Palpatine ironically. In other words, Anakin was a bit of an idiot.
This video is so good. One of my favorites from the channel. Great topic and analysis of it.
Obviously, stories of heroes have been a defining part of my life and many others. This explains why that are and even exist in the first place. Absolutely loved it!
It may be a fairly simple topic but this is one of my favorite videos of yours
Great video. I had a bit of a hard time with Luke's decision, but see your point. The other possibility I thought of when thinking about the episode later was that Luke might have learned more about the Mandolorian culture from Ashoka or other sources, & recognized that if Grogu continued his close attachment with Djin, he would be more & more shaped by that culture over time. The Mandolorian culture is in sharp contrast with the Jedi culture, so Luke could have been very concerned that Grogu choosing this specific attachment could have resulted in a mindset opposed to Jedi teachings.
Haha so true about influencers vs inspiration.
I believe the 'with great power' quote is based on the Bible's 'to whom much is given, more is required'
Spidey has been my favorite in Marvel since a little kid
All in all an excellent analysis of these characters and the values they represent. 👍
I'm putting together a Star Wars RPG campaign for my friends set around 35 ABY. I basically get to write my own ST. In my canon, Luke doesn't re-establish the Jedi, but rather creates a different group called the Knights of Kenobi. The fundamental difference is that they follow the teachings of Qui-Gon Jinn about the living Force. The Knights dedicate themselves to follow the will of the Force rather than dedicating themselves to dogma like the Jedi.
I firmly believe that Qui-gon surviving would have prevented Anakin from falling to the dark side. Qui-gon was the last true jedi of his era, and I know that's a bold claim given people like Obi-wan and Yoda and Mace Windu being around at the same time, but in reality all of them fell into the trap of following the will of the Senate and Jedi Council over the will of the force. That is why the jedi order needed to be destroyed in order to start again under Luke. Anakin reset the board so to speak, since the sith unbalance the force simply by existing. Balance of course isn't even parts light and dark (pay attention, sequels...), its letting go of the self and following the will of the force above all else, even if the Senate were 100% pure and righteous. Balance allows the force to flow through the jedi, not just be used by them.
Agreed, the Clone Wars council became too embroiled in politics and lost touch with what they were supposed to do, follow the Will of the Force and protect the people of the Galaxy. A true Jedi wouldn't care if the Separatists wanted to leave the Republic. They would only work to protect the people, not go on the offensive in attempt to force the Separatist systems to rejoin the Republic.
Anakin was weak and palpatine took advantage of that. Nothing would have changed that.
@@fattiger6957 did you even watch the fucking movies? Nobody was attacking separatist planets for not wanting to be a part of the Republic...
I agree. But also Qui-Gon would have been the catalyst also because he understood the need to nurture Anakin and help him overcome his fears and guide him like a father would. Obi was too young and irritated with Anakin's presence. When he made the promise to train Anakin he didn't see what Anakin needed and trained him in a typical way that wasn't reaching the heart of Anakin's issues. And I don't blame Obi but it just goes to show the caliber of Jedi is also an important component in how you train the next generation.
I think saying Qui-Gon was the last true Jedi of his era is a bit harsh. The Jedi as a whole fell into the trap of serving the Senate, a trap of their own making via the Ruusan Reformations if we're going by Legends history, but I would argue that you put too much blame on the individuals. They did not choose to follow the will of the Senate over that of the Force, nor did they conflate the two; they were raised in a system where the Senate was above them in the decision-making hierarchy, and they accepted that as the way things were and did their best to follow the will of the Force within the limits set by the law without even realizing that there was another option. That was their mistake, and a very big mistake, but not to my mind one that disqualifies them from being true Jedi. The system still had to be completely restructured, probably violently, and that was ultimately one of Anakin's purposes (restore balance to the Jedi by tearing them down and letting someone else start over; restore balance to the Sith by destroying both members of the Rule of Two, collapsing them empire that supported all the acolytes, and re-creating a more militant and proactive version of the Jedi Order).
Very insightful post. Really enjoyed the connection you drew between two complete different universes. This kind of video keeps me coming back. Great work.
This is a perfect accuracy of comparing the Jedi and the Sith to selfless and selfish people in our own world, people who crave that money, power, and status will probably get jealous of others who do have it and those who already sometimes there's a chance aching corrupt them and even push other people away from them and my own opinion this is the reason why it's good to have some people in your life to keep you grounded, humble and in reality.
Wow first off this was eerie, just today for no particular reason I google for Spiderman's first appearance ever, and you video starts on that very image. Took me a minute to reconcile it all :)
Then, I love the parallel you're making here, not only for Grogu's choice (who wants to spend time with someone who doesn't want it as much? It isn't fair to either party. And it really goes for everything in life btw) but for this great quote "The purpose of a hero is not to be more like us, but for us to be more like them".
Some of today's Hollywood screenwriters should take a few notes here.
inspire is to amplify someone's dedication to a path of their own choosing (the jedi ideal, yes; but what is canonical jedi practice?)
influence is to make sure that someone is walking the path you want them to walk (sith all the way, the jedi were actually a proxy of the sith, the jedi were just too full of themselves to realize what tools they became in practice)
nobody ever says "under the inspiration of..." such and such
when people say "under the influence of..." such and such, they usually mean it in a bad way
I liked your differentiation of these two similar, yet distinct, concepts
the power struggle is what creates the power creep that we've seen throughout the real life production timeline of the starwars movies, the force became a plot device instead of a philosophy
mandalorian season 3 hidden inside bobf seems to make up for this: in that Luke gave Grogu the choice, when most padawans were taken from their families simply because of their ability to control the force, not just sense it
I’ve said it before and I’ll continue to say it. Luke is the successor to Qui gon Jinn, he is what Luke should have been.
Hmmmmm
I think I get what you’re saying, and it’s certainly in keeping with what OG Lucas has said publicly.
But it still makes me wonder about RotJ. Only Luke’s attachment saved his father from Luke’s wrath, and pulled Luke back from the brink of temptation.
I hope they’ll elaborate more on this as Star Wars continues. There is perhaps more to the Jedi philosophy to be revealed.
Exactly. One in a thousand of us have what it takes. To be clear, I am not one of them. But I can admit and understand it. Being a Jedi would be nearly impossible. If you want to be one for the sake of glory, you've already lost. Deal with it.
It both amazes me and horryfies me that many writers specially in Hollywood either fail to see or ignore what it is that makes a hero. But due to recent and continous developments I am hopeful that we will get back stories with heroes and heroins that inspire.
This is really an excellent video and discussion. I also liked many of the comments, especially jetblast's & Jesse rohn's.
This is such a keen observation. Thanks.
*Excellent* analysis- very well said
For a very, very, very brief second, I thought the introduction with Spider Man had him saving Luke Skywalker and I about produced bricks from my nether regions. Then I realized it was a segue. WHEW.
Grogu is about 50, from a species we know can live to 900, to put it from a human perspective, he is a 5 year old, how many 5 year olds would have the maturity to give up everything they know and love in exchange for power, and yes, the lightsabre is power.
Luke was asking Grogu to choose between power and friendship.
If Grogu lives out the rest of Din Jarin's life with him, then joins the Jedi, he would still be training as a 10 year old (human equivalent) having already had TWO DECADES of training from great Jedi Masters of the Old Republic.
If Grogu had chosen the lightsabre he would have been choosing power, what are the implications of that?
Would Old Republic Jedi have offered a simular choice, or was it just a case of "You are strong with the force so you will train as a Jedi" Youngling "I want my mummy" Master "No, you have the potential to become a great Jedi so will train to be a Jedi weather you want to or not"
I personally think Obi-Wan is the greatest Jedi. He gets tested as much, perhaps even moreso than Luke, and at each point gets stronger and a more complete Jedi. I agree with Thor on his points though and thats something people forget when watching Star Wars, they want to see people like Anakin and Grogu, have their cake and eat it, without seeing the bigger picture of what being a Jedi actually entails.
I wish we could learn more of Qui-Gon. I liked him.
I prefer Legends Luke Skywalker. Despite his ridiculous power scale, he goes through a much better arc that makes him very wise. Oh, and he never gives up hope.
💯💯💯💯💯💯. Like I said, we should’ve gotten an older Luke who was happy, cheerful and idealistic.
@@chasehedges6775 Legends Luke was not known for being particularly cheerful. He was somewhat like Charles Xavier (Patrick Stewart version).
@@vetarlittorf1807 Still… better than the ST.
Heroes like Luke, Qui Gon, Padme, & many others all do what they do because they know it means a better tomorrow for others
My Mt Rushmore of great heroes: OT and EU Luke Skywalker, Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, Captain America.
Not everyone wants to be a cop, but nobody wants to live in a neighbourhood where there is no cop
Hey Thor did you notice the comment I posted on your Thor skywalker plus video that was released today. Basically what I asked is at this point what day seems the most likely for the nihilus video to be released
You know what I really really like the "The purpose of a hero is not for them to be more like us, but for us to be more like them" especially nowadays I think this is completely missed in writing often
As somebody who saw the original Star War film in 1977 as a child (I still cannot get used to calling it "A New Hope"), I've always struggled with the notion of the Jedi having to abandon all personal attachment. This was never a concept of the original trilogy. Lucas created this notion when he was trying to flesh out how he would present the Jedi Order in the prequels. This was obviously not how Luke approached his Jedi Knighthood in TESB and ROTJ, and it ultimately worked out to his benefit. I don't necessarily have a problem with the retconning of the Jedi Order of the Old Republic as an organization of individuals who eschew personal attachment. Okay. Fine. I'm sure it's been heavily expounded upon in Expanded Universe novels that I never read. But I do find it odd that Luke Skywalker, in his attempts to rebuild the Jedi Order, would return to such a policy that clearly didn't work in the past and directly led to the creation of Darth Vader. The Jedi, as portrayed in the prequels, were a morally bankrupt Order who had no issues creating a slave army to fight their wars for them and had become so blind that they couldn't foresee their own downfall. Why would Luke want to look to their example when building the foundation of a New Jedi Order? It makes no sense to me given the nature of the Luke Skywalker that I remember from the end of ROTJ. If anything, I think that that Luke would have tempered some of the requirements of the Old Order, especially the one that forbid personal attachments. If nothing else, at least THAT requirement. What we have in all of this is an attempt to reconcile two trilogies that were written decades apart by a fellow who had the tendency to retconn on the fly. This is usually not such a big problem and can be dealt with through clever writing. However, this bit of inconsistency deals with the very nature of Luke Skywalker, one of the principle figures in the saga. Luke posing that choice to Grogu seems out of character, at least without knowledge of what might have changed Luke's character in the intervening years since the end of ROTJ. A character can change drastically in a narrative, but it must be shown, otherwise it feels unearned and makes no sense, just as Luke's transformation into Jake Skywalker in The Last Jedi made no sense. The shift in character that we see when Luke is interacting with Grogu . . . well, it seems to me that he's already 15% of the way to becoming Jake Skywalker.
Luke redoing the problems with the Jedi Order is honestly the worst thing that they could have done with the story. The whole point is for him to learn and grow beyond the old ways and see the value in connections with his friends that helped him overthrow the Empire.
Name them. Site the exact moment that the Prequel Jedi did something wrong and then when Luke did it wrong and why it was wrong. I am still waiting for someone to name one thing.
And don't say "forbidding Attachments." Learn what Attachment means in Buddhism. It is the exact same definition Jedi use. Anakin had Attachments and they destroyed him and everyone he supposedly cared about.
Exactly
@@jeffreymeehan3116 Buddhism isn't perfect. The whole concept of spending decades trying to reach enlightenment in some remote monastery is the epitome of selfishness.
I kinda agree. I think they did that to explain why the order fell in the Sequels.
Long story short, I was totally in the dark before I watched these discussions. So I think very few people understand the Jedi and the selfish vs selfless idea, few are open minded to their unique culture/ideals.
Regardless of which argument we go with, 1) that letting Grogu choose is better than making him stay, 2) that he didn't learn from the Jedi's mistakes, 3) that the Jedi had the rule bc of people like Anakin popping up, etcetera, I think Disney just doesn't understand the Jedi any better than the fans. I feel like fans have so many different opinions bc the way the poor explanation around the prequel Jedi, so Disney never really had a basis for how to view the Jedi, so we have Luke abandoning the Jedi way, Ahsoka never taking up either Jedi or sith mantles, and fans siding with the villains who's narrative job is to be wrong/flawed.
@@jeffreymeehan3116 I don't know much about Buddhism, but thank God for the people that know the Jedi are inspired by Buddhism.
Well... Luke also failed the same test in The Empire Strikes Back.
There were so many people upset that Grogu left Din. And part of those same people were angry that Luke gave Grogu a choice to choose his own fate. Why? Grogu was obviously missing Din and wanted to be with him. Luke saw this and did the right thing.
Because it renders the season 2 finale of Mandalorian pointless. Imagine someone in the future binge watching the complete series of The Mandalorian and how disappointed and confused they'll be at the heartfelt goodbye of the season 2 finale only for Grogu to be back with Din in the next episode.
And Grogu missing Din is not a good reason to send him back. Luke should have fought harder to teach Grogu to let go of attachments. Grogu's enormous lifespan presents an incredible opportunity for the restoration of the Jedi after all. Besides, unless Din becomes a cyborg or something, he'll be dead from old age before Grogu is even at preschool age.
@@vetarlittorf1807 Yes, the narrative of the show made it seem like the finale was pointless but it wasn't. That finale showed that both Din and Grogu could let go even though they love each other. For Grogu letting go proved he wasn't attached as Ahsoka feared. But for Din it proved Grogu's health and well-being means more to him than his own wants.
Could they have forgone their reunion until S3 of the Mandalorian? Yes, and in many ways I wish they had. My point was they were not upset because Grogu reunited with Din, they were upset because Luke made Grogu choose and they wanted Grogu to have both because they did not understand the path of a Jedi
As to Grogu should not have made that choice because he needs to become of the restoration of the Jedi order, I disagree. Grogu gets to choose what he wants, not what others want of him. It isn't his responsibility to take up that mantle. And because of all the trauma of his past, I think Grogu deserves to heal and be happy for a time until he decides if he wants to train again.
I think the choice also fully solidifies that Luke actually cares about the choices of his students. Foregone are the ways of taking children who are force sensitive for the sake of the Jedi order. We don't want more Anakin's. We want people to understand what it means to be Jedi before making the lifelong commitment.
Anyway, just because Grogu is with Din now doesn't mean he can't train later. He has a millennium to make his own choices.
@@vetarlittorf1807 one problem there genius, the previous Jedi order tried that approach with Anakin and it got them all slaughtered
@@jeremyallen492 That's not what got them all slaughtered. The reason they failed Anakin is because Obi-Wan failed to teach him how to deal with his fears. Had he been assigned to a better mentor, he would have had a better time letting go of attachments. On top of that, the reason why it was hard for Anakin to let go of attachments is because he started his training so old. Whereas Grogu is an infant and therefore it's easier to teach him to let go of attachments.
When I was thinking about attachment, and how I seem to disagree with Thor Skywalker on the subject, I ran across this short video from Jordan Peterson that might fill in the gap between the harsh, overbearing Jedi attitude toward attachment in the prequel era and what I think the Jedi like Luke and Qui-Gon actually meant when they spoke about attachment. Give this clip a watch:
ruclips.net/user/shortsPqainn1STTk?feature=share
I think you just described the vast majority of RUclips content creators with this upload. I wouldn’t quite say they are all Sith but I do feel the majority certainly only look out for themselves.
The "no attachments" rule still is superfluous to me and causes more problems that it's worth. There's plenty of careers where you expect people to put the needs of others above your own and those of your own family, where you expect them to be selfless. So I think the rule was a plot device in "Phantom Menace" to separate Anakin from his mother. It is directly responsible for his fall to the Dark Side - had they taken Shmi with them, had they allowed Anakin to visit his mother every second weekend or something, he would have profited.
Social media influencers are Sith. I love this take.
This has major “old man yells at cloud” energy.
But since you asked, I think it was within character for Luke to make Grogu choose between being a Jedi and a Mandalorian. However, it wasn’t the direction I thought the story should have taken.
Not really. The OT established Luke as a character that thinks beyond the black and white teachings of the Jedi. It's why he chose to spare Anakin instead of doing as Yoda and Obi Wan said and kill him to destroy the monster that their dogmatic arrogance had created.
If I was in Star Wars galaxy post Return of the Jedi I would definitely join Luke Jedi order got nothing else to do with my life plus it not like Luke Jedi aren’t allowed to fall in love and having family of there own down the line because I believe the Jedi can love like any other person in the end they are people too it all about how they be responsible with that love. If the force for the Jedi is “Great power comes great responsibility” then love for the Jedi is “ Great love comes with Greater responsibility” if the Jedi of old taught their students the difference between selfless and selfish love things would be different like if Anakin had talk with Padme tell her “You important to me Padme and I love you forever more so that why live without me.” When Anakin betray the republic and the Jedi he wasn’t thinking of Padme he was thinking of himself and that the trap of the dark side selfishness. It part of being a Jedi to persevere when times are tough including falling in love you have to live with the consequences of your actions either glorious or tragic but never forget you can fix your mistakes cause the choices you make in life is what defines who you are and yourself character.
From those to whom much is given, much is expected.
Great thoughts, as always!
Luke: “I give you the choice, return to the Jedi, and give up all you’ve gained as sacrifice to save others if it is called for; or leave the Jedi path behind, and return to your found family. Are you able to be a hero? Do you want to be a hero? You don’t have to be, but I would like you to join me, but I understand if you chose not to sacrifice more after all you’ve experienced.”
Grogu: “thank you, for the teachings, and helping me. I am not yet ready to sacrifice to help others. I have a family, and I want to return to my family. Perhaps we will cross paths again, master Skywalker. May the Force be with you.”
Luke sacrificed his student to better help his student.
Shmi was the real hero of Episode 1.
Come on now, massive disrespect to the mighty Jar-Jar!
This is a beautiful video
My two favorite Jedi! 🙌🏻
With Great Power comes Great Opportunity
💯💯💯💯
Luke bribing Grogu with Yoda's saber was a disturbing, unnecessary memberberry.
What's also interesting is that Luke is actually applying the lesson of both his and his fathers transgressions, which is that giving up one's attachments is easier when one's affairs are in order. Luke left Dagobah, because the burden of becoming a Jedi became too much to bear, and he couldn't come back before setting his own affairs outside of the Jedi's duty in order. Anakin fell because he tried, and failed, to balance two mutually contradictory positions, and could only let his son be his own man and make his own decisions once Luke showed his father that he can.
Luke offering Grogu to stop being a Jedi, if being one is too much is the right thing to do. However, with Anakin the situation is more complicated. It's easy to assume that someone who is in the Jedi temple, undergoing Jedi training, despite the ability to leave at a moments notice and said training making it easier to do so is commited to it. Doubly so when you have never formed attachments, and thus your ability to deal with the ones someone has formed has atrophied.
I believe that Luke is testing Grogu about whether he would make decisions based on ambition or would he be inclined to value loyalty and personal relationships over a self serving lifestyle. Grogu has many years to choose to complete his training should his foundling experience end and the Jedi school determine he has remained faithful to the practices of their order. It is like comparing Asoka to Count Dukoo. After all Luke has experienced, which of these two would he accept as a student? If there is one thing Asoka can offer to the Jedi Academy, it is a first hand experience about the misuse of Force Powers with a skill and service vs political manipulation based hierarchy
The problem isn't 'it's not fair, he should have both', the problem is it doesn't fit Luke's characterization. Luke grew up training as a Jedi, while being with his friends. His deep connection to his friends and family is what got him to turn Vader back, saving his father. Now, they're having him be a hypocrite, saying Grogu is either a Jedi or he cares for his adopted father, one or the other. That's not Luke. Why can't he train as a Jedi, while having his father visit and offer him things that can protect him? He's shaming him, just like they did with the original Jedi order! He is NOT Luke Skywalker, he is Jake Skywalker. That was actually the final straw for me. It proved they're still following the sequel trilogy. I am done. Instead, I'm enjoying fan made 'what ifs'. The fans offer much better stories than Disney ever will. I'll watch them, instead.
Jedis inspire, true.
Sith, I would suggest, Coerce.
anyone else think that after Grogu grew up seeing the jedi order become corrupt and fall from the clones betraying them think that Grogu is a genius for leaving the jedi in favor of blaster proof amour and the warrior people who were the original seed for the clones?
Qui gon is objectively the best jedi shown on screen imo. Kenobi next
Well said
Comparing influencers to sith is just perfect man. Great video👍
I think kanan was the greatest but that’s me personally.
Thor you seem to influence me to use my brain… 🧐🤓
I disagree with the idea that we shouldn't feel bad for the Jedi and what they sacrifice. Just because they find fulfillment in their life of giving doesn't mean we can't feel bad that they don't have the option (willingly or not) to live a normal life. Being a hero is something to be celebrated, yes, but that doesn't mean you can't feel bad that they give so much for so little return.
Why feel bad for someone who is happy?
@@thorskywalker What I would feel bad for is the opportunities and options they're closed off from by nature of following the hero's path.
Disney had the potential to make Luke Skywalker the best Jedi possible, but they screwed him over
No. JJ Abrams and Rian Johnson screwed him over.
@@vetarlittorf1807 💯💯💯💯
@@vetarlittorf1807 still hired by Disney
@@macwelch8599 No. They were hired by Kathleen Kennedy. And it's not like Disney or Lucasfilm was giving them instructions. In fact, it's obvious that there was no creative oversight whatsoever.
@@vetarlittorf1807 JJ and Johnson were just a hired guns, following the will of Kathleen Kennedy and her agenda. And Disney fully supported that agenda. So they are still to blame for what was done.
"Our lives will increase in the measure that we give them away" - Pope John Paul II
I don’t see why mando can’t visit and help Luke raise baby yoda with baby yoda becoming a Jedi after.
Luke: "I can't kill my own father "
Obi-Wan: "Then the emperor has already won."
This is what made people angry about Luke following the old Jedi teaching about no attachment and Jedi cannot love. Luke knows, first-hand, that this is wrong. Love for his father, and his father's love for his son, is what allowed Anakin Skywalker to redeem himself. To have Luke just parrot the opposite of what he knows to be true is what makes the scene so infuriating.
Im 99% sure if Qui gon lives Anakin doesn't fall. Shame we didn't get more on screen. Amazing 2 of the best characters came from Phantom Menace and both died.
Jar-Jar survived. ;)
Qui-gon should have been in ep 2 also Anakin should have started off in ep 1 as a teenager not a little kid
Hear hear, your comment of being destined to be ruled by villains rang a bit too true, hits me in da real life man, great video though!!! Heroes are where we should aim, not aim for them to just be average.
One point I don't see people making about Grogu's choice is that Luke KNOWS what happened to Anakin (maybe not all the details but enough). Anakin was in a very bad place (slavery) when he was offered the chance to become a Jedi (whom he idolized) & was also on a time limit to make his decision. Also Qui-Gon & Shmi were both pushing him to leave as there would not be another chance to. I think Luke understands that Grogu (much like Anakin) was not prepared to make that kind of commitment but that the door is open for him to return at a later date.
9:00 I don't know why but this part made me think of how Marvel ruined Captain America in endgame
Qui-Gon was a better Jedi like true Jedi philosophy wise, but Luke was a more skilled force user easily. The most skilled force user of all time.
⚡Qui Gon did not give Anakin a choice. He used the force to win a bet for Anakin. ⚡
This argument only works assuming that people (especially humans, but perhaps aliens as well) can find enough purpose and satisfaction out of life in service to the force to outweigh the loss and lack of deep connection that is only possible through "attachment" such as interpersonal relationships and families. I don't think this perspective accurately reflects reality. Although there are examples of people removing themselves from such relationships for a greater purpose (Nirvana, celibate service to God, etc) these people are relatively rare and often end up psychologically damaged or incomplete. I think this is evidenced by clergy abusing minors and other horrible things out of the incompleteness of removing oneself from the relationships essential for flourishing and self-fulfillment. In my opinion, such incompleteness is inherently created by the "sacrifice" that is required by the Jedi Order.
Not only that, but even accepting that some people out there are perfectly fulfilled and sane without the type of human connection denied by the Jedi Order, the odds of such a seemingly rare personality type also being born with force abilities strong enough to train in the Jedi Order seems astronomical. It would appear to me that in such a system, we would end up with a lot more Anakins than Obi-Wans.
Perhaps I'm incorrect here, but I always viewed Qui-Gon as a more true follower of the Force, and that additional restrictions placed upon force wielders by the Order are comparable to the Pharisees adding their own restrictions on top of the Law of Moses, which distracted from the purpose of the Law. (At least, according to Christianity). This means that I loosely compare Qui-Gon to Jesus and the Jedi Council during the time of the prequels as the corrupt, pharisaical members of the Sanhedrin during the time of Jesus.
Maybe I'm way off the mark, but my studies in psychology as well as my anecdotal experience leads me to believe that the Jedi Order would never have lasted as long as it did if its members share any resemblance to the psychological and social needs of real people.
However, what I really love about Star Wars is that I can hold my view of the story and its characters at the same time as someone like Thor Skywalker without interrupting their enjoyment of the series. I don't agree with a few fundamental things that he believes about the Star Wars universe, but I love that it ultimately brings joy to both of us.
No Jedi made Anakin be a Jedi. The Jedi are free to do what they want, but if what they want doesn't fit with the life of a Jedi, they can't be a Jedi. Obi Wan was willing to leave the Order if Satine asked because he knew that he couldn't be with her and be a Jedi. Anakin was unwilling to give up either Padme or the Jedi. I don't view Luke or Qui-Gon above any other Jedi because they aren't offering anything new. No Jedi forces anyone to think or act like them, or even to accept their way of life. Any who does is not a Jedi.
I wish Canon Luke was wise.
I find it funny that you speculate that lots of influencers act like siths. Twitter being fuelled by the dark side isn't that surprising.
My problem with Luke making Grogue choose between being a jedi and a mandalorian isn't that he MADE him choose, it's that he LET him choose. Grogu is a literal baby, 50 years is still in infancy for that species. Grogu is NOT old enough to make that enormous life decision for himself. Luke should have just kept the armor secret until Grogu was old enough to decide for himself
How do you know he's infant and not toddler? The show is very inconsistent on this and Yoda was teaching students at 100 years old
It makes way more sense that he regressed because of trauma not because he was an infant
Hey bruhs
I prefer him having friends and marrying.
"With great power comes big booty bitches." - Kermit the Frog
Qui-Gonn made the choice to bring in Anakin which destroyed the Jedi order. A lot of people died because of him.
They were doomed anyway
@@paulrasmussen8953 I don't buy that. Vader tracked down Jedi who escaped order 66. And the clones would have had a harder time with the temple without him. More Jedi would have survived if Kenobi had listened to Yoda and let Anakin go.
@@dahelmang nonthe Jedi's ridged adherence t9 their dogma dooms them. Palps set this all up. More jedi MIGHT survive bit overall doomed with the clone trap
@@paulrasmussen8953 their adherence to the code is what allowed them to keep the peace for 1000 years. It wasn't until they broke the code to allow Anakin in that they fell.
@@dahelmang but before that leadnto repeatednwars between them and the sith. A sith that keptncoming from jedi ranks. That 1000 years is because Banr changed strategies
66th like