The 400 Meter Debate | Tony Holler vs. Ryan Banta (Part 1)
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- Опубликовано: 1 апр 2022
- Today's video is a part 1 of a debate between Tony Holler and Ryan Banta on how to coach and train athletes for the 400m and become a better sprinter in the process. Part 2 will be posted soon after.
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Part 2 has now posted. If you'd like to continue watching the debate, click here: ruclips.net/video/CPdKn3bRPIg/видео.html
PART 2!!!
Can’t wait.
Thanks for sharing Tony!
You bet!
I think sub maximal intensive tempo and a max speed approach can coexist. Both these coaches work with kids and not masters athletes like myself, and that needs to be taken into account. Max speed training is important for sprinters of any age but for a masters sprinter, getting to the start line healthy is #1. Masters World Record holder Bill Collins mentioned he almost never would run full speed in training and would never wear spikes. But, as a kid, I could rip a 100m race without really warming up. Not so as a masters. Max speed training holds more risk for masters athletes. I was a 60 yd (indoor) sprint champion at 17, and I never had the mental discipline to train for the 400 (440) in HS. Never ran a 400m race til I was 50 yrs old. 9X USATF Masters Champion.
I can`t wait for part 2 😆
Thank you!
@@coachtonyholler When Ryan talked about doing some 200`s at the pace you would come home at in the 400m I don`t agree with that (85%). The only reason you are running slower in the final 200m is through fatigue. But the faster you are the faster the overall time will be so doing any 200`s 2 or 3 seconds slower than you`re able to wont help because you are just fresh and running slowly if that makes sense.
The only time I would be running the second 200m slower is doing a broken 400m 1x flat out 200m + small recovery and then try to run a fast 200m again and it will just be slower because of fatigue rather than meaning to run slow from fresh.
And i`m a middle distance fan trying to improve my sons sprinting. Ryans workouts at 70% are just mile pace repeats for a distance guy.
@davidtaylor we don't run at 70% unless we are doing a high low athlete. Typically, much faster. As the season evolves the tempo days turn into back end, then speed reserve, then race modeling. Our state meet is two days. Back to back ability is important. We also move our timing to goal pace and not date pace when going shorter than race length/distance. Hope that helps.
@@fatmansprinter so you only focus on 1 of the workouts Banta does then completely misrepresent that workout despite it being explained in the video!? Yea, I agree that only running 200s at 70% is a terrible way to get athletes fast. Too bad that's not what is being suggested.
@@mr.levine7960 2 of the workouts -- 1 at 85% which is worthless and 1 at 70% which is more distance fitness based.
If you run 50 for 400m so a 24 and a 26 (the second 200 is only 26 because of lactic build up with the first 100 of that faster than the 2nd 100 - lets say 12.5 and 13.5)
Its like saying i`ll do 10 x 100m (same volume as 5x200m) at final 100m speed of 400m in which case you`ll probably be running 13.5 second reps. Pointless.
The question - Is it possible to still run fast without the extra 200 work? probably yes. Which leaves you time to work on more speed which will actually improve your average time or recover from any you`ve been doing.
I don’t think it’s a good idea to give kids under 16 hard lactic sessions but I think endurance is highly trainable so it’s makes sense to give older athletes some volume if they have established good max velocity. But I also think volume can be a crutch. More can be done to improve speed than many think.
Better to give kids under-16 lactate sessions of 3x200 or 3x150 than to give them bone-crushing, mind-numbing 10x200 with a joggers stride. The key is to microdose hard work, get a training stimulus without burning the steak... then work on pure speed the rest of the time.
@@coachtonyholler Once you overcook a prime rib, you can’t eat your slice medium-rare.
Different systems to succeed in track! Some questions for both is you on measuring the success of a system:
1. Are your kids loving track (measured in subjective response, kids coming back each year, and the program growing)?
2. Can you say your kids are injury and burnout free? Measured in injuries or mood of athletes.
3. What is the average progression of your kids 400 times from Freshman to Senior? Obviously every kid regardless of coaching will improve due to puberty, but a good system will provide consistent (ish) improvement above what is normal (although I doubt many coaches have detailed records and progressions of their athletes, which is sad).
I don't really like these questions. Ryan and I are both good coaches with tons of results to justify what we. do. We coach in different states. Ryan coaches girls, I coach boys. 1) FTC is 100% about getting kids to love track and field. 2) No teams are injury free but a FTC program is as injury-free as programs can be due to microdosed training. 3) If our progression was not good, we would change all we do.
*** your statement about "everyone will improve due to puberty" is 100% false. Have you ever coached high school kids? Improvement is NOT a given. Ever.
*** and FTC is NOT a system, it's a way to think, a mission statement, a way to cook.
As someone once said about the 400m, "There are many roads to Rome." Lee Evans did 6x600m workouts.
Some roads lead to burnout, depression, and injury. Jim Ryun used to run 60x 400. I could give a shit what Lee Evans was capable of doing. Freaky athletes are freaks… unicorns. As a coach, my athletes are happy, healthy, and fast. They are also great in the 400.
Choose your road wisely.
I've no doubt that it's effective for 100m school age sprinters, and it sounds like fun. Who wants to do intensive tempo 300s when you can run 60s? I love speed workouts. But to do nothing but, It almost sounds like appeasement. I never had the balls for a 400 (440) at school age. Too hard. You and me Tony, we are the same age, and I seriously doubt for guys our age, it would be possible to run 57 in a 400 with just max speed development alone, especially me being 5'7". 400m sprinters are made and trained. Elite 100m sprinters are largely innate. A guy who is already innately fast isn't going to improve as much as a prospective 400m runner who hasn't trained. Doesn't matter who you are, you still have to train to run a 400m on an elite level. And, to be an elite 400m guy you have to have 100m speed, good enough or close to medal among the competition. Yea, but school age vs masters, different thing. @@coachtonyholler
@@hikerboater When have I ever said, “ONLY SPEED TRAINING”? It’s like you are doing a book report without reading the book. Please read this… simplifaster.com/articles/400-sprint-feed-the-cats/
@@hikerboater And when talking older athletes going to a speed based approach…trackfootballconsortium.com/never-slow-down-never-grow-old/
Thank you for the great resources. Always learning, never had a coach.
@@coachtonyholler
Can you start training for sprints TOO early? I’m looking to start this summer (with a goal of peaking in May), what should I do/not do?
On the contrary, sprinting should be done as early as possible. Run fast. Race. Chase. Time. I’m not advocating an early entry into organized track programs, traveling the country. But, sprinting should be a preschool activity.
Great information and back and forth. It is semantics but, as I coach I try not to use the words "my athletes" and "I". "Our athletes" and "we" sound better and give the feeling you are a part of a team (especially if you have assistant coaches).
Totally semantics. If you don’t think Ryan and I are “we” guys, you know nothing about us.
@@coachtonyholler definitely think you are both "we" guys or else you wouldn't be coaching, it just comes across as "look at me chest thumping". Similar to when you asked Ryan if he thinks your kids "don't work hard" in Part II. He knows your kids work hard but the way it sounded it was as if his kids work way harder than your kids.
@@bobfystro4935 Thanks coach!
After listening to high school kids and training my kids less is better for athlete enjoyment, many pretend to care mostly about the athletes success but never care if the to ask the kids and can clearly see its all about them.
Stop running and start sprinting....literally a meme
MaxV is no question the #1 element in running any sprint up to the 400m. As your maximum increases, all percentages of that maximum are of a higher absolute value. You can't maintain what you can't attain.
The other guy make training very complicated
I am here to answer questions if you have them Ruduwaan.
Ryan is a very good coach. But, good coaches don't always agree.
This is kinda bullsht. Your saying it's easier to train endurance on a sprinter and then turn around and talk about training speed in a minimal way. That is wrong. It takes the longest to train the body's endurance systems and speed comes the fastest - in about 6 weeks of sharpening. I know hs XC runners that spend 7 to 8 hrs of running time a week to train their enduranxe systems and here you describe gyys spending 2 days a week 'sprinting' to be able to preform well....now which is harder again? Takes more dedication? Also, distance people are not SLOW. They are running extremely fast over much longer distances. Let's see a candy ass sprinter EVER run a 14 min 5k - it will never ever happen
"In the greater athletic community, however, sprinters get little respect. Distance runners disdain them for their lack of suffering, These Calvinists equate pain with achievement and cannot imagine the stress of running so fast; they can't identify with what they can't do" -Charlie Francis
@elijahebbert6884 no, you see now, that is totally wrong- it's has nothing to do with the lack of suffering and everything to do with how difficult it is to achieve- the level of required dedication and time...our best sprinters were out vaping, getting drunk, etc during the season even- distance runner has to eat clean, train 60 mile weeks running all summer, make sure they get 9 to 10 hrs of sleep a night- to achieve the same level of success. Sprinters don't get any respect bc they are fking babies and every real runner knows it bc they have witnessed it personally.
@@snakey973 Quite the generalization and you are very naive, but I don't blame you. Maybe pick up a few books about coaching sprints and strength & conditioning.
@@snakey973”it has nothing to do with the lack of suffering and everything to do with how difficult it is to achieve.” You just shot yourself in the foot on that one. As both a cross country runner as well as a sprinter, I can tell you don’t know anything about sprinting. All the XC kids in our team slow and do not have any explosiveness whatsoever. When they try playing other sports that requires speed, agility, coordination, and power, the coach himself say, “There’s a reason why you guys only run, and not play other sports.”
@jr.smiththehennessygod2249 I actually know quite a lot about sprinting and 'what it takes to acheive' which is why I have the opinions I do about the relative difficulty of different running forms. Its not even close