'It's the System, Stupid' - Lance Ford
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- Опубликовано: 30 сен 2024
- Why are so many churches corrupt and toxic? Author pastor, and church planter, Lance Ford, says: “It’s the system, stupid,” pointing to the toxic leadership movement
Lance says the system of leadership that’s been imported into the church from corporate America is what’s producing our abysmal results. This system has been wholesale embraced by Christians, but there’s nothing biblical about it.
As one who has designed training systems being used by networks and seminaries worldwide, Lance is speaking from a heart of love for pastors and the church.
This is an extremely illuminating talk, essential for anyone who cares about the health of the church and the proper care of those in it.
This program was also released as an audio podcast and transcript on Dec. 20, 2023:
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Where has this guy been all my life? We could have been delivered of church manipulation!! More of this please.
Agree!!
Totally agree. The system is the problem, it is Diotrephes system.
3 John 9
I have written something to the church, but Diotrephes, who likes to put himself first, does not acknowledge our authority.
Lance, I have come to the exact same conclusions as you concerning Matthew 23. I believe Jesus was very clear on his warning to not let anyone call you Raabi, (spiritual) Father or instructor. I also believe Jesus when he said, we are not to Lord it over our brothers as the Gentiles do. I have never heard someone say these things in front of a large audience as you just did. THANK YOU! These two issues come straight from the masters mouth, and yet still our system overrules His very words. THANK YOU for saying it, it needs to be said, nay shouted. I have lost pastor friends because I simply point out the words of Jesus. I think it is amazing how pastors will spend years in seminary to learn Greek and parse verses down to the smallest detail, but miss these crystal clear words of the one they say they serve. The vast majority of our leadership issues in the church would be solved if these two clear statements of Jesus were followed. duh! I actually had a senior pastor tell me that these statements were only for pastors who could not handle it. When our system practices speak louder to us than the very words of Jesus, WOE to us! Thank you for speaking up Lance.
Lances approach to what is properly known as Empire vs Shalom thinking systems, not story systems, is far better than Frank Viola.
Finally, Finally, every church I have ever seen is top down. Even the home and communal fellowships I have been a part of have slowly morphed into a power struggle. Jesus said, In my kingdom IT WILL NOT BE SO. ( not it shouldn’t be so or might not be so) Using the vocabulary of the Bible to feign servanthood does not fool Jesus. When it is done it is NOT HIS KINGDOM.
I love this! Something the Lord has been showing me little by little. The system is rigged! 😱😱🤦🏽♀️ Thank You Holy Spirit for your revelation and give me wisdom to navigate my steps, in Jesus name! 🙏🏽
I am so glad to hear someone go here! Been trying to tell Christians this for 50 years. They always look like dear in headlights.
I agree with what he's saying but can believers/sheep/denominations/leaders, etc. really live the answer out? I don't see it happening until Jesus sits on his throne on earth. I'm glad to hear this though. Hopefully it will wake someone up.
I remember reading at Open Doors, or maybe Voice of the Martyrs, about a church in India, whose pastor was killed. There was no one qualified to serve as the new pastor of this church, which had many elderly and disabled people, all very poor. So a teenaged boy arose out of the church and took the job, sacrificing the rest of his formal education. He had to provide teaching, which meant faithfully finding Bible truths to preach and lessons to study. He provided food for the hungry and brought drinking water for many. And he eventually was killed, also. But he was proof that the greatest among us is the servant of all. He was a living example of it. Blaming things on "the system" sounds like letting people falsely off the hook for their sin. But it is apt, because we have sinfully accepted a worldly ungodly model if leadership, instead of the one Jesus gave us. This young teenager lay down his life for the sheep, taking Jesus's instructions about His church. So, yes: it is possible to do this.
I think it may happen sooner, mainly through persecution. Paul writes about a strong delusion coming that will cause anyone who doesn’t believe to accept the lie. By the sound of it, any remaining Christians will have to band together to survive and support each other
God is shaking things, yes! Amen to that
The last 15 minutes of this are gold! The executive pastor should *never* have been a thing. However, I worry that the idea expressed in the first half (anti-hierarchical, entirely egalitarian church leadership), is an extremely American, quite naive approach. (Disclaimer: I could be totally misunderstanding the presenter here lol) As a former minister in a tradition that emphasized and attempted to do this very thing, I found it to be pretty unworkable when the rubber met the road.
Not to mention, this approach is by far the outlier in church history. A hierarchical structure was in place from the very beginning (Acts 15, Jerusalem Council) and on through the first 1000 years of the Church. Should the pastor be a dictator with no checks on his power? Absolutely not. The person on the top of the hierarchy should be held to the absolutely highest standards. However, an organization with no one in charge is simply an elective social club. Unfortunately, I feel that's the direction most of non-denominational evangelicalism is going.
Thanks for this presentation and all your organization does!!
Usually what seems to happen, at least according to one seasoned Christian I talked to is that people who are using one model eventually become disenchanted with it and then swing the other direction. So the grass of an entirely egalitarian structure is much greener when you're traumatized from a dictator pastor or admin group that's using the hierarchy for evil. But likewise, the idea of a hierarchy is much more appealing when a lack of clear authority gradually leads to people doing (and teaching) whatever they want with little real accountability...and usually just fracturing into smaller groups. Both models seem to be great in the beginning, but sinful desires erode both well-intentioned structures over time.
@@Window4503 That absolutely tracks in my experience (personal and observed).
An idealist gets disillusioned by one extreme - swings over to the other extreme - is disillusioned there, and then either A) leaves ministry entirely or B) becomes a realist and settles somewhere in the middle of that pendulum. We need more of result B :)
If I may disagree. I don't see a hierarchy at all in Acts 15. You have the apostles, and the elders. This was not a hierarchy. There is no such thing in the New Testament. The whole clergy-laity distinction is an early man made concept. As he pointed out in his message...we have one Master; we are all brothers/sisters. Matthew 23:8-12.
You lack faith that the church can function without even the hint of Hierarchy.
@@stevendonohoe2150correct 😊 Because Jesus instituted the church with hierarchy (John 20:21-23 establishing higher power for the apostles), the original 12 apostles continued that format of church (Acts 15 council where the apostles determined the practice of the entire church), Paul endorsed the same structure (1 Timothy 5:17-21), and the entirety of church history shows the necessity of hierarchy in some form.
Those movements that disregarded hierarchy almost immediately devolved into serious abuse and doctrinal error (Montanists, the Munster Anabaptists, and the Shakers come to top-of-mind).
Thank you Holy Spirit ❤
Peter is the first person listed every time the Apostles are listed in Scripture. Nothing wrong with having hierarchies. It's just about using ones authority with humiliy,
Ohhhhh....... SO Good!!!! Thank you.
Bill Clinton?! 😂 How appropriate.
Awareness, such as asking, "What am I doing and why?", offers up the reality of systems, story, narrative whatever you wanna call it, at work within a given society or people. And, they are not as modern as you might think.
The system the church has used for years is centuries old, it's called Empire. It is a hierarchy of dominance built around acquisition and wealth (size). Whereas, the system God develops in the Torah is one of Shalom and is characterized by Isaiah 30:15, with a context of Israel relying on imperialism.
See, the struggle that so many aware "Christians" have, myself included, was our system of viewing the Bible. When you're able to strip your doctrinal brainwashing, and see scripture, The FIRST Testament, as Christ saw it, then we begin to be able to read a complete book, with the beginning offering grounding on how to read the rest of the book!
What aware Christians are doing with the best of intentions is work backwards. It takes a long time to tread back 2,000 years of tradition to get to the contemporary context of Jesus and his efforts. He was trying to orient the Israelites off traditions onto the perspectives and expectations on and of scripture, the FIRST Testament, specifically the Torah.
Forget what you think Matthew 5:17-20 means and read the Bible as a Jew. Then, just maybe, the approach of God-fearing Gentiles in Acts 15 will finally make sense and cause an awakening to colonial appropriation. This isn't our Bible, it's Israel's Bible. The Bible isn't about America, it's about Israel's land. These two posts can establish a contextual trailhead for a journey that strips away Triumphant jargon, Replacement Theology rhetoric and Supersessionistic thinking, and enable the modern thinker to realize the book isn't about them but a Jewish guy declaring himself to be the Jewish Messiah to Jewish people, and we get to be the Rahabs, Ruth's and Naaman's that join with Israel’s God in making him our God and joining his family.
Such thinking makes it easier to understand Romans, especially Romans 11. So my encouragement is don't stop digging cause you'll eventually reach the starting point you've been looking for, Genesis 1 (A Jewish Poem).
Very interesting reading, would be much easier if it was split into paragraphs.
@@ezbody what do you find interesting?
Just because it isn't new information to you does not mean it is not new information to many others. People often grow up in bubbles, especially in tight-knit top-down churches where people are told the pastor's interpretation trumps anything they take in on their own.
So good 🎉🎉🎉!