I know of a "controller" living in a large apartment block. After fourteen years of his absurd divisive behaviour, he has been diagnosed as a Narcissisistic Sociopath.
Tangential Aside: From the time the Mars Hill firestorm began, up to and after the folding of the company, I asked-“TO WHOM will the EQUITY in the Mars Hill BUILDINGS GO? WHO will be PAID THE REAL ESTATE CASH?” I still don’t know the answer.
At about 18 minutes in, you say something like, "Unless a pastor has a 'moral failing', it's hard to get them out." As a former evangelical pastor, it's one of the most frustrating things to me about all of this (and I know this is one of your points). All of the abusive behavior he exhibited doesn't rise to the level of a "moral failure," but if he commits sexual sin, then he's out. As though domination and abuse doesn't involve a moral component. Evangelicals, man...
You are right! Myself and five others, based on our testimony, were able to get former pastor and author Chuck Bomar disqualified for the abuse of power and control...it was hell and cost the six of us so much. I'm hoping what we were able to accomplish (getting a bully out of the pulpit) was a demonstration of the tide turning. I wish our journey to disqualify an abusive leader on no one.
I have a question, should Charles Stanley have remained in the pulpit after his divorce. I know his wife divorced him and there was no adultery on his part.
@@deborah3912 I don't know, because I don't know anything about that situation. My position has always been that divorce, in and of itself, should not disqualify a person from ministry. It would require wisdom on the part of the church to sort through all of the specifics through the lens of grace and truth.
I thought that these fleecers went out with Jim & Tammy Faye and the Jack Hyles bunch. Why are people still listening to this garbage?? Driscoll is just repackaging the lies to a different audience and apparently getting away with it... so sad!
One good thing about the internet and RUclips is the way it makes it harder for people to spin their own narrative and get away from accountability of their sin. On the other hand if people, especially those in leadership do not have a healthy fear and reverence of God then accountability will make them double down because the fight is about them.
All of this comes down to one thing: "Man looks at the outward appearance, but God looks at the heart." The church planting powers that be wanted "dynamic leaders," and they got what they asked for: Saul, not David.
So him pinning someone by the throat,, against the wall was not enough of a red flag? Isn't that considered assult? I came out of a smaller church organization where the men around the pastor were afraid of him and not willing to hold him accountable for his sins and wrong doings. He did so much harm and damaged many families. Why do we put up with men like these?
And how crazy is it for the elders to be asking him, "Who would you be accountable to?" Driscoll will not reign himself in He'll continue to make it all about himself, including he thinks it's "his church". That's a cult.
Home Church! Great job Julie on keeping us informed! The accuser is the one usually engaging in the very accusation leveled against the honest good men and women of the Church.
A teacher ought to be a stranger to the desire for domination, vain-glory, and pride; one should not be able to fool him by flattery, nor blind him by gifts, nor conquer him by the stomach, nor dominate him by anger; but he should be patient, gentle, and humbler as far as possible; he must be tested and without partisanship, full of concern for people, and a lover of souls.Theodora
I had a brief experience with Mark in person once. I was applying for A29 in Florida, met with him and Pastor David Nicholos, and he was talking about how he wanted to "mentor" me. I laughed because we are the same age, and I was thinking that the Nicholas of Spanish River would do the mentoring, especially since he had planted so many churches and Mark has planned only one at this point. Mark asserted himself in EVERY situation !!! This was in 2000.
Story at 23 ish minutes is heartbreaking to know that Sutton witnessed this abuse and no one did anything to stop Mark. I can't imagine how the pastor that Mark assaulted was able to recover knowing that no one was willing to stop Mark from hurting him. Can you please interview Diane Langberg about the physiological and psychological issues that were happening in those moments? I suspect Mark is highly addicted to chaos, which means he continues to "fix" on what is happening right now. Same story...no one is able to stop him.
I used to listen to Driscoll years ago before I had heard anything negative concerning him and to be honest the vibe that came across was that he would probably tend to be a domineering quick - tempered bully. These were my impressions of him back then.
I think we Christians are easily confused by the move of the spirit and the power of suggestion and psychological manipulation. Mark Driscoll is a sociopath!
@@TheHumbuckerboy same. I wanted to like him because some of the things he was saying seemed like they might be helpful to the church at large. Looking back on it, it was oozing with legalism, rather than the Gospel - Christ and His righteousness. I couldn’t shake that something was def off, beyond his brashness. Little did I know… 🙈
Mark Driscoll doesn't see the response of parishioners as responding to a move of the Holy Spirit. He thinks it's all about him. If you want a sample of his abusive language, it's still captured online his posting as William Wallace II with all his foul language, shutting down conversation and in that thread, two brand new seekers who were referred to the website and that thread were the only ones who called him out. All the others seemed to be church members who had their own "handles" online and played a role or played along with him. Disgusting. His preaching is performative and it's all about him. This is part of the rot of no accountability.
I think you "nailed it on the head". Mark Driscoll saw himself in competition with other large churches and wanted to be the largest. Jesus is head of His church, no one else.
But all the talk about "accountability" seems to point toward an authoritarian religious organization, not toward *truth in the inner man.* If people do not have a fear of God, and its all about "getting by" with stuff, they can get by with it in an authoritarian system, just like they can in an independent church. All it takes is a pastor (or elder, as MD was) who knows how to work the system. Without a heart for the truth, it will alll be based on lies.
“There is a pile of dead bodies behind the Mars Hill bus. By God's grace, it'll be a mountain by the time we're done…. Either get on the bus or you get run over by the bus, those are the options. But the bus ain't gonna stop.”
Yes unfortunately this is the way of so many self built congregations which I cannot call a church. There is absolutely nothing of Jesus in how these are controlled because these men are not leaders, they are tyrants.
This is why it’s necessary to deal with personal trauma because it comes out on stage when Mark speaks to people. I pray for his healing. He has very low views of women; I watched a lot of his sermons recently to try to get a different perspective and they center on “jezebel,” evil women, women controlled by spirits…I feel bad for his wife.
"....every time I hear his voice...". I fully understand that experience. That is how I feel when I hear Mike Bickle's voice. These Wolves have a distinct voice, and Jesus said, "My sheep hear my voice....John 10:27." These Wolves, Bickle, Driscoll, etc. have a distinct voice, like a "finger print," and when you hear it after having discovered the truth about them, it triggers a person. Their ability to lie with a straight face and tell fairy tales is their finger print and DNA. You know it when you hear it. I met Bickle in '82, disliked him from that moment and when I hear his voice (for it is distinct), it triggers me with anger (righteous and unrighteous).
He’s clearly such a liar - so sad - and he must be cracking down on people in his congregation having the freedom to freely live and talk. Unbelievable that so many ignored his disgusting behavior - what in the world??
having served in a church where leaders "fumed" at jr staffers 'below' them...I still can't see how this bodily assault wasn't instantly reprimanded? Also, I wonder how this didn't make it in the RAFOMH podcast?
Why were the elders so afraid of him? Grown, adult men. Why, when Driscoll assaulted a pastor, didn't you intervene? Did anyone report this physical assault to the police? It's understandable that you wanted to see Driscoll restored. But the role of a church leader is also that of a shepherd of the flock. Not protecting them makes you dangerous. Weak leaders are dangerous. You can't keep playing nice with people like Driscoll. Demonstrate clear, definite strength. Strong boundaries. It's the only language people like him understand. If you are so afraid, then why not resign, & find strong, confident men who can? You've got to think of the flock. I'm sorry, because I believe you are a good man, but you've got to get tough with people like him.
Yup. Fear of man is a sin. 👆 It often runs hand in hand with idolatry. It idolizes man over God. He mentioned seeing Mark, fire people, then to lose their jobs. Did they fear losing their job, and what could be lost if they did lose their job? Again, that points to idolatry. Caring more about the things we have here being taken from you vs. obeying and fearing God. In The Bible, people often lost things to honor and obey God. It takes time, sometimes, but God eventually restores and sometimes GIVES MORE bc you've passed the test of fearing Him more than man or anything in this world.
That is what I ask. How did some many weak men get into leadership. I'm not surprised, how are they leaving out that he was against that women were wanting leadership positions. I was there during that time too. And the book that was bought by the church was given to me and all the cell groups in Olympia.
starting is saying that they were going to concuuse him of adultery almost sounds like he is trying to plant seeds of doubt when something does come out along those lines.
Do not understand how someone cannot leave a church. No church can control who leaves unless maybe some cults where you live there and they physically restrain you. Otherwise you can leave.
When you are terrified of a person in authority who's smeared the names of others who've left, when that person in power has incredibly deep pockets, when you're WHOLE community and family is wrapped up within that church and you know by leaving you will be ostracized and alone...it's very scary and very difficult. It's not impossible, but it has so many layers to it. It's not as simple as "just leave". I get some don't get it. Usually it's people who haven't gone through this horror who see it as black & white. There is so much grey in between 😢
11:30 Who said what is not important? Excuse me? Excuse me, you're making some pretty heft accusations. Yes, the names are important. Who said what and the nature of their character and if they have a reason to potentially be deceptive is VERY important.
6:24 - "ok investigate everything I know I am not disqualified I know who i am i cant wait to stand before Jesus its going to be a great day for me, not that i am perfect, but I know who I am, and I know who He is" - Mark Driscoll 14:07 - Sorry for anybody to be as arrogant to think that they can stand in front of Jesus I mean I am sorry like all of us fall short of the glory of God and Jesus is sinful life all have fallen short so for anybody to me say "I cant wait until the day I stand in front of Jesus and tell Him how good I am" I mean its just remarkable its shocking to me - Sutton Turner Anyone see a problem here? Clearly Sutton is putting words in Marks mouth and claiming they are Marks words its the stuff like that this that make all of this seem like an outcome was predetermined before the investigation, it looks like soft people got together and started a movement to remove a Pastor that is long winded and is doctrinally sound BUT is a bit of a bull in a china shop because they want the word of God to conform to them not the other way around. Before all you Mars Hill people or Mark Driscoll haters come at me crying about your feelings know this IF u are going to attack a pastor like Driscoll tell the TRUTH not a version of it not bits a pieces the WHOLE TRUTH and if u have to lie or make up words u attribute to Driscoll then u lose the discussion and are acting in bad faith.
every time I have listen driscole speak I've heard lie after lie. Never EVER has he said anything that wasn't corrupted by falsehood. That's a fact. This guy needs to repent, shut up and go away for ever
I'm saying this with the uttermost respect for all of you involved. I wish the churches would appreciate more the knowledge and experience of people working in the psychiatry. I'm talking about how there are narcissists and psychopaths out there in leadership positions. For there to be restoration- the person has to want it. It involves the person acknowledge he or she did something wrong. A narcissist or psychopath will not understand even that they did something wrong. They will think its their God given birthright to dictate the situations. The Lord didn't reveal anything of the sorts to Mark. Mark feels the fire under him. And then in his head crafts an out for himself where it's the world against him. He has the signs of a narcissist all over him. A malignant grandiose one. People like him should be "investigated" at the first certain signs of bad behavior and gaslighting because the potential to harm is so incredibly big and violent that if we wait, and let him have a chance and all that it means there is just more time for the narcissist to manipulate people, situations and craft their own narrative. Sadly the church people know too little about this stuff. There is really no need for a long process. If there is evidence - and there was evidence very very early in this case - of disqualifying behavior, confront at once. "U did xyz wrong are u interested in repenting and restoration? If the immediate answer isn't yes sorry man I'm so sorry I know I did so many sinful things I need to step down immediately so I can get some real counseling - if that isn't rhe answer it is time to get rid of those people. Not in a month. Now. Not only did he decline resolution to the issues. He ran away because it was the only thing he could do while still keeping his narrative intact in his own mind. Namely that he is a man of God and do godly things for the church. There are so many examples of prrwchers like this. There are so many leaders both in church and secular world that is like this. They are toxic people that need to be removed at the first sign of bad behavior patterns. Not mishaps and mistakes. But patterns. Everyone makes mistakes. For Mark Driscoll, being toxic is the only way he knows how to live. Is God able to fix? Theoretically he is. But there's a reason God also gave a list of disqualifying traits in a teacher. If he was at my church, scolding a pastor and being violent for any reason at all, I would be so quick to boot him on the street out the door that he wouldn't know what struck him. Thats how serious it is. As I said I respect all of you - especially you involved, I am not involved, and I appreciate how complex and hard the situation is and was. I'm not trying to be rude. I just say the church ougtha be more awake as a whole when it comes to bad personalities like this. One can't change other people. They gotta change themselves. And narcissists like Driscoll do not want to change. They do not see they wronged anyone. They believe its their God given right to act like they do. They will many times spin a narrative where the behavior is actually necessary. The last thing they will do is to admit their wrongdoings. I hope u guys find peace. And I encourage you other church leaders and elders out there to learn as much as you can about mental illnesses like this and how to avoid it, possibly connect with a professional like a psychologist to get advice from in insecure situations. You know, the narcissists will sometimes be violent too. Physical i mean. It's MANDATORY that the church do whatever is necessary to protect the flock from leadership like that. Or even members like that. I have one question. Where does the millions of dollars in his war chest come from? Are the people giving to the church incredibly wealthy or are there investments here and there, or possibly illegal stuff?
As someone who had an explosion temper most of my life. I can definitely say. You have have a person who seems the nicest most down to earth person who seemed perfectly stable. That goes off and turns into an absolute monster, someone most people who knew them would never believe they were capable of being. Explosive is the right word for it. Like a package, looks innocent and is handled by many, until it goes off.
Thank you for the video, Sister Roys. S. Turner (if you are reading this), and you are faced with another opposition such as M. Driscoll then, I pray you would have courage. The church cannot afford to have those who are supposed to be watching (especially men) cower under fear of other men. There are self-defense tactics that can be learned to help us gain confidence. Sometimes, we have to be ready to meet the opposition with force for the sake of the body of Christ. Even with the fear, S. Turner, there is no excuse to have watched another life in danger and not act. Men have to be ready to fight as God made men protectors. My prayers are with you brother Turner, I saw your heartache on part 2 of this segment and I understand it so well. God bless you.
Yeah like multiple people would actually say something like that.. not even a good lie.. well actually it’s a good lie.. Mark D knew the only way they could get him out was if he committed adultery. Mark D is a legend in his own mind.
My experience is that Christian leaders lie to save God's face when it's really their face they are saving. In other words, they are allowed to lie if it keeps their leadership going for God.
Jesus said, "Feed my sheep," not "Beat my sheep," and that includes spiritual abuse. I've been a Christian for 45 years now, fellowshipped at 8 churches. 1 pastor had an affair with our church secretary and was forced by the elders to step down. 1 pastor was publically exposed by a male prostitute/masseuse for drug use and homosexual romps, he was also forced out. Another pastor was accused by his son of physical abuse , nothing happened there. The son left the church, and "Christianity." Another church, the#2 (co pastor) was fired for "inappropriate actions " and he went and started a cult. That is just my experience in church, sadly, many churches have pastors living double lives.
I am so sorry to hear of your exposure to so many terrible pastoral fails. It seems that something is very wrong with the megachurch environment with kings at the top. They seem unable to remain faithful without spectacular falls. Maybe the whole model leads inevitably to failure. Maybe smaller churches with real accountability and reduced performance pressure is an antidote. Let’s re-embrace following Jesus in humility.
Character must precede giftedness. 1 Timothy 3:2-5 addresses character. A person can be a very good orator at a young age and not be mature. A mature person knows who is in control and it is not him but God.
Mark Driscoll didn’t start acting like a bully close to the time the board decided to create this list of 25 reasons he was not qualified. People like this act that way from nearly day one starting with small acts and word choices. Their bad behavior ramps up getting more egregious as time goes on. Beginning from day one, Driscoll created an environment and culture in which he could get away with the bad behavior…..until he couldn’t.
It's illegal to threaten to harm someone let alone lay hands on them. Why doesnt he get charged? It sounds like it's not a one off or rare heartbreaking moment for him.
Every single person needs to stop going to Mark’s new church and stop supporting this manipulative man who lacks humility and integrity on every level. He is the truth beyond wolf in sheep’s clothing and his abuse will continue. I truly hope his family is safe.
@@ezbodyEspecially when they have come out or live in that atmosphere, in home or elsewhere. I nearly fell for it, only because of Jesus, I didn’t go down that road again.
The Bible says, "Test every spirit." Satan performs miracles and folks assume it is the Holy Spirit. The "Fruits of the Spirit" are given as a guide for appointing leaders acceptable to God. If leaders do not consistently reveal the fruits of the spirit, there is "no light in them" Satan laughs!!
One of the great failures of Julie and Sutton is to see people coming to religion as some kind of move of the Spirit... That simply is not the case! The fact is religion is the biggest Market in mankind and you get the right kind of cheerleader and right kind of charismatic leader and people decide to buy the product - and the fact is Jesus is the very best product without a question - as all the cons and griftersand hucksters have long known... And now you have your Big Revival that you're so excited about but it's nothing but bullshit!
Like a retraction? As far as I know, there hasn't been any. I believe Julie would post a retraction if something she reported on turned out to be false.
@@starlingswallow So you are saying that you have never reported on a story that turned out to be false or misleading? That you've never made a mistake?
@@starlingswallow Please don't misunderstand my intent here. I'm not saying that Julie doesn't do important work. Of course, people do not like her, as she exposes all manner of nastiness. I'm just curious if you have ever gone back and corrected misleading stories...similar to what she asks others to do.
"Pastor" John Paul Miller is one of these hucksters. Charismatic in church and a terror behind closed doors. I am horrified for his late wife, Mica, who everyone still thinks was driven to her death by that man's twisted and horrific abuse. Surrounded by people who worshiped her husband (instead of Jesus) and refused to HELP her.
May I ask you one question Ms Roy? Is it truly the way Jesus Christ directs us to deal with our fellow Christians by going online and destroying their names, affecting them and their families? My Bible directs us to go to someone one on one, a few to the sinner, before bringing to the church. It concerns me when individuals are condemning the church, Christ’s body.
Driscoll used absolute gaslighting to avoid accountability. He avoids the real reason he was outed and expelled. He even uses God Himself to avoid the truth!!! God told him to leave, he wasn't removed by his congergants. Yuk!!!
Thankful Jesus didn’t berate the disciples or worse, grab their throats and threaten them. What translation did they use at Mars Hill? Wonder if it’s used at His current church.
Despicable behaviour and shows there’s no change when these pastors claim it. Mark Driscoll seems to be a Lier , no reputable behaviour and is no different than an arrogant individual
So sad. There must be a volcano inside he needs help with. And I feel so sorry for his family having to live with someone so explosive. Not sure being rebuked publicly was necessary or helpful, but it would have been nice for him to receive help.
Many people grow up being spoon-fed the Bible because they believe the pastors that have been put in position have been fully trained and vetted. 😢 some HAVE been fully trained and vetted and still flip into one of these power hungry abusers. Abusive churches LOVE when people don't crack open their Bibles for themselves to CHECK what they are being taught. It's laziness and I did it too, partly because I didn't think I was smart enough to study the scriptures and understand them on my own. I overcame that childhood wound and dug in myself and got out of a cult. ❤
I understand that MD may be self indulgent. I understand that he has flaws and some arrogance but as the sone of a preacher myself, I’ve seen a lot of the behind the scenes in churches too. For elders to try to take power isn’t far out of the realm of the possibilities either. Even the leader of this podcast is saying that the owners of a car dealership are men of integrity, so yeah, I guess we all have our own views huh? I don’t believe that men that Mark led to Christ also always had his or Mars Hill’s best interest at heart. You would think that would mean something but I’ve personally seen that that’s not always the case. I think the message that MD brings is pretty amazing and the destruction of Mars Hill has done a lot more harm than good. Going to Mars Hill in Portland did nothing short of save my marriage. The fall of Mars Hill has stifled the reach of God’s word and people that would have gone there to find God really don’t have that as an option anymore. We are human. We like to be entertained . Not all of us want to go to the same ol boring services we grew up in, especially if you’re new to church. Do Mark was human and made mistakes. Weird, I guess he isn’t Jesus. Got it. But, was it worth the lost souls? Am I to believe someone else that could’ve possibly believed they had power to gain in a church? That’s a tough one. In the end, some people have left the ministry for what they’ve seen or done and some have a clear conscience and are preaching in other places.
Sometimes it’s hard to see the forest for the trees when you are so involved with a toxic situation. There’s usually a mixture of good and bad experiences that make everything so confusing and difficult. It’s the same reason why a battered woman doesn’t leave an abusive husband. There are other things holding her there like a desire to be loved and accepted or a lack of self esteem or identity. It’s like that boiling frog parable where the frog doesn’t realize it’s being boiled because the water gets too hot one degree at a time, until the frog is cooked.
@shannamathias4176 but all of this is hearsay. There is no physical evidence. There is just one person's word against another. You will know someone by their fruit. If Marc Driscoll is really that awful of a person he wouldn't have the comeback he is having.
@@jodismith665 fruit is how you treat people, like love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Fruit and success are so often conflated. I just think there are way too many people saying similar things about how they were treated by him that all of them would be lying, at personal risk to themselves. Christianity doesn’t reward whistle blowers. It tells them they’re gossiping or causing division in the body of Christ and they are disbelieved. It’s not something you would just do for fun.
@shannamathias4176 I've been lied about by several people who got together and decided to say things that absolutely were not true. It devastated me, my reputation and my career. I'm just very skeptical of people who jump on the bandwagon against Pastors who speak Biblical truths.
Honestly, if those guys really threatened Mark about making false accusations of adultery, that is really bad. The fact that it is not in written notes does not mean it didn’t happen. Do you think people would write in their notes that they were thinking of making false allegations of adultery to get rid of him?
i left evangelicalism for Holy Orthodoxy and i will never go back. the best way i can explain it is that everything i ever hoped for in Church is there, and now everything in comparison seems like a cheap imitation. there was a Church before there was a new testament
@@sarahuber8567 I agree, men are fallible, not matter where you go. The Orthodox Church is the original Church of the apostles, which has existed unbroken in its traditions and doctrine for 2000 years. The Roman Catholics broke off in 1054, and then all the Christianity we know about here in the west is a result of the protestant reformation of the 16th century, when the idea of “scripture alone” (Sola Scriptura) was adopted. The problem is that when the protestants were railing against the abuses of the Roman Catholic Church (quite understandably) they were ignorant of the Church in the east, which remained. The thing that changed my mind is when I learned through history that there was a church with traditions and established doctrine for hundreds of years before there was ever a new testament canon. In protestantism, any fallible man can pick up a Bible, open a “church” and preach what he thinks it means. in Roman Catholicism, they set up one man as infallible (the pope). only in Holy Orthodoxy is the correct teaching preserved. The Bible was put together for this Church, by this Church, and cannot be properly understood outside of this Church.
Just wondering, Is Mark Driscolls preaching considered biblically sound? I understand that from this that He’s seen as a Unqualified preacher due to his personality but has he preached a wrong gospel?
I am far from an expert on him, so take what I am saying with a grain of salt. From what I understand, his sermons are biblically sound and engaging, which is part of why he attracts such a large following. But the issue is that his persona away from the pulpit is abusive, and that abuse is even sometimes subtly visible when he is preaching.
@@NoNameNumberTwo I’ve been to Trinity. Great preacher and now being bold against the transgender kid stuff etc while too many stay quiet.. but when he tells these stories don’t believe him? Not sure I trust him..
People whose main priority is "well, are they biblically sound?" would follow a serial killer for a pastor as long as their teachings from the pulpit were "biblically sound"
His preaching is straight from the Bible. He goes a book at a time, a chapter at a time. People who call this church a “cult” are discrediting good, sound, Biblical teaching. If people have issue with the man himself, that’s another story
@@briceheers469 remind me again where he earned his PhD in theology? I mean if he's a biblical scholar I'd really like to know where he studied? How "straight from the Bible are we talking ?" He teaches from the original Greek I assume? with understanding of the Greek audience it was written to? Remind me again why the book he has coming out on 1st and 2nd Kings wasn't able to be published by any publisher at all , and now he's self self-publishing it? Why can't a serious academic get their book published? weird?
Think how horrible Mark must act with his wife and children if he acts that way in public! He needs help with anger management. I feel so sorry for his family.
I feel evangelicals only view sexual sin as immoral, and it’s unfortunate, because abusing people, using your power to subvert, is immoral as well, or we’re you speaking tongue in cheek?
@@sarahmotlong949 obviously I was. Hence the quotation marks around the word great. Yes all of that is sin too and we should have a zero tolerance policy in all churches for any kind of abuse
Sin of pride = lacks humility. Lacking in self-control. Abusive speech. What comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart. Absolutely unqualified for ministry.
Elders had a duty to look into reports of abuse, which they observed. They don’t have be “trained” to ask questions. If there are laws that were violated, then by all means being on others who are competent.
We preach the gospel with how we treat others, with how we live. The behavior described here is not Christian at all. And a pattern. Sounds like a psychopath.
I believe you’re the wolf Julie. You try to sound just and you bring in all your riffraff on your program to make you look so pure and honest, BUT YOU’RE NOT what you claim to be.
If you take the time to notice the demeanors of Sutton Turner and Mark Driscoll, you can see that one has peace and the other looks a little frazzled. You be the judge on who may be innocent and who may be guilty. Ultimately we will all stand before the Lord to give an account. As someone who has the gift of discerning of spirits, I can tell you there is something demonic about one and not the other. Mark Driscoll has been put through the ringer and this just adds to it. I respect Julie as a investigative journalist but I think she is wrong on this one. Jesus says by their fruit you shall know them. I see many people commenting against Mark, but just take a look at the fruit. Which ones leadership would you like to be under? To me it's obvious. I know that we should not only go by feelings or intuitions but I'm sure more of the real truth will come out and vindicate Mark. I've been blessed by some of Mark's preaching and teaching and think he has been wrongly accused for many of the things that so called church accuses him of. Mark, I'm praying for you.
Maybe he should no longer be a pastor, but I am blown away by all the judgement here. Don’t like him, don’t listen or follow him. Are all of you here without sin? Even Julie has a checkered past. Re: Sarah
Jesus said not to judge hypocritically. Meaning not to judge others for what we are currently doing ourselves. Jesus said to take the log out of your own eye so you can see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's. Not to leave the speck in and judge not. Unless those in the video and comment section are committing the same sins as Mark Discoll then they can freely judge him for his sins. Also, God forgives the repentant. We shouldn't bring up forgiven sins of others. Mark has not repented and so the judgement continues.
A few things….why did it take so long for Mark to be held accountable? Secondly….how is this healing the situation? IMO this is gossip and is not strengthening the body ….. the church should not be entertaining this stuff. I’am an elder of a church in a similar position, we need to keep our integrity above this, not got tit for tat
Hi Mick! Good questions. I feel it is extremely necessary, protective and Biblical to point out wolves in sheep's clothing. Paul and others in Scripture stated BY NAME people that had wronged them and/or not supported their ministry and specifically told the sheep to have nothing to do with them. 1 and 2 Timothy are great examples of Paul's warning. Other helpful Scriptures are: Matthew 7:15 & 10:16, Acts 20:29 & 2 Peter 2:1. There are others. Julie does an excellent job protecting and WARNING the bride of Christ. 👏 I, personally, have gleaned much wisdom and discernment from her uncovering the deeds of darkness. 🧐 Having a critical spirit is a different subject, but certainly unBibilical. I have never felt that is Julie's heart. Her heart is to shine LIGHT on darkness and expose sin...period. She has more bravery and courage than most Christ followers I know. If pastors and elders followed her stellar example, we wouldn't have so many churches falling away from the Truth because there would actually be immediate accountability. I do feel it's essential that we also pray for God to lead Driscoll and others to repentance. It's not enough to call them out. We must also lift them up. That is a Scriptural command. 🙏
@@margojo624 hi Margo mate :) Yes I agree, however Iam concerned that this topic will be talked about in 1,2,5 or even 10 years time It needs to be put to bed as we should not be spending our time condemning the condemned … we have work to do That’s my view anyway
Hi again brother, I think most of us have wrongly understood gossip, also. You may enjoy this explanation by Julie herself: ruclips.net/video/wTlB1JdXBhQ/видео.html I do understand what you mean about not dragging this out forever. The problem is, TRUTH is still coming out regarding Driscoll and the thousands of people he bullied and deceived, including his own family. 🥺
Hi Mick- this podcast is in reply to Mark D’s very recent claim while preaching at Trinity that there was a plan to accuse him of cheating on his wife… as a last ditch effort to push him out of leadership at Mars Hill. Over the years others have said it and now it seems confirmed that under duress Mark D leans toward paranoid thinking…. and maybe even storytelling. His bullying leadership style continues and it’s tragic that someone with his giftedness is/was unwilling to get the help he needs. At the very least It looks like it’s being said that he conflated things about this so called “plan” to accuse him of cheating on his wife 😢
I know of a "controller" living in a large apartment block.
After fourteen years of his absurd
divisive behaviour, he has been diagnosed as a Narcissisistic Sociopath.
we left Trinity about 9 months ago.
Why?
Good for you
@@samueljimenez7420c
Tangential Aside: From the time the Mars Hill firestorm began, up to and after the folding of the company, I asked-“TO WHOM will the EQUITY in the Mars Hill BUILDINGS GO? WHO will be PAID THE REAL ESTATE CASH?”
I still don’t know the answer.
We’re his sermons biblical ?
At about 18 minutes in, you say something like, "Unless a pastor has a 'moral failing', it's hard to get them out." As a former evangelical pastor, it's one of the most frustrating things to me about all of this (and I know this is one of your points). All of the abusive behavior he exhibited doesn't rise to the level of a "moral failure," but if he commits sexual sin, then he's out. As though domination and abuse doesn't involve a moral component. Evangelicals, man...
You are right! Myself and five others, based on our testimony, were able to get former pastor and author Chuck Bomar disqualified for the abuse of power and control...it was hell and cost the six of us so much. I'm hoping what we were able to accomplish (getting a bully out of the pulpit) was a demonstration of the tide turning. I wish our journey to disqualify an abusive leader on no one.
Agree
I have a question, should Charles Stanley have remained in the pulpit after his divorce. I know his wife divorced him and there was no adultery on his part.
@@deborah3912 I don't know, because I don't know anything about that situation. My position has always been that divorce, in and of itself, should not disqualify a person from ministry. It would require wisdom on the part of the church to sort through all of the specifics through the lens of grace and truth.
@@deborah3912 As far as I remember Charles Stanley offered to resign but the church wanted him to stay so he remained.
Mark Driscoll was crazy bragging about standing before Jesus
Was astounded what MK said about standing before Jesus 🥺😳
I thought that these fleecers went out with Jim & Tammy Faye and the Jack Hyles bunch. Why are people still listening to this garbage?? Driscoll is just repackaging the lies to a different audience and apparently getting away with it... so sad!
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God! Heb.10:31
@@Tallinguy
I think Jack Hyles did a way better job at concealing his dirt.
One good thing about the internet and RUclips is the way it makes it harder for people to spin their own narrative and get away from accountability of their sin. On the other hand if people, especially those in leadership do not have a healthy fear and reverence of God then accountability will make them double down because the fight is about them.
All of this comes down to one thing: "Man looks at the outward appearance, but God looks at the heart." The church planting powers that be wanted "dynamic leaders," and they got what they asked for: Saul, not David.
What a spinless man.
So him pinning someone by the throat,, against the wall was not enough of a red flag? Isn't that considered assult?
I came out of a smaller church organization where the men around the pastor were afraid of him and not willing to hold him accountable for his sins and wrong doings. He did so much harm and damaged many families.
Why do we put up with men like these?
And how crazy is it for the elders to be asking him, "Who would you be accountable to?" Driscoll will not reign himself in He'll continue to make it all about himself, including he thinks it's "his church". That's a cult.
He is the king of strawmen. He creates them and topples them over. Mars Hill was going to accuse him, so he resigns... Right..
Home Church! Great job Julie on keeping us informed! The accuser is the one usually engaging in the very accusation leveled against the honest good men and women of the Church.
A teacher ought to be a stranger to the desire for domination, vain-glory, and pride; one should not be able to fool him by flattery, nor blind him by gifts, nor conquer him by the stomach, nor dominate him by anger; but he should be patient, gentle, and humbler as far as possible; he must be tested and without partisanship, full of concern for people, and a lover of souls.Theodora
I had a brief experience with Mark in person once. I was applying for A29 in Florida, met with him and Pastor David Nicholos, and he was talking about how he wanted to "mentor" me. I laughed because we are the same age, and I was thinking that the Nicholas of Spanish River would do the mentoring, especially since he had planted so many churches and Mark has planned only one at this point. Mark asserted himself in EVERY situation !!! This was in 2000.
Yikes.
Story at 23 ish minutes is heartbreaking to know that Sutton witnessed this abuse and no one did anything to stop Mark. I can't imagine how the pastor that Mark assaulted was able to recover knowing that no one was willing to stop Mark from hurting him. Can you please interview Diane Langberg about the physiological and psychological issues that were happening in those moments? I suspect Mark is highly addicted to chaos, which means he continues to "fix" on what is happening right now. Same story...no one is able to stop him.
I used to listen to Driscoll years ago before I had heard anything negative concerning him and to be honest the vibe that came across was that he would probably tend to be a domineering quick - tempered bully. These were my impressions of him back then.
we left Trinity church about 9 months ago!
I think we Christians are easily confused by the move of the spirit and the power of suggestion and psychological manipulation. Mark Driscoll is a sociopath!
@@lifesprint We are told to test the spirits ... is the spirit Christlike or is there a doubt ?
@@TheHumbuckerboy same. I wanted to like him because some of the things he was saying seemed like they might be helpful to the church at large. Looking back on it, it was oozing with legalism, rather than the Gospel - Christ and His righteousness.
I couldn’t shake that something was def off, beyond his brashness. Little did I know… 🙈
Mark Driscoll doesn't see the response of parishioners as responding to a move of the Holy Spirit. He thinks it's all about him.
If you want a sample of his abusive language, it's still captured online his posting as William Wallace II with all his foul language, shutting down conversation and in that thread, two brand new seekers who were referred to the website and that thread were the only ones who called him out. All the others seemed to be church members who had their own "handles" online and played a role or played along with him. Disgusting. His preaching is performative and it's all about him. This is part of the rot of no accountability.
I think you "nailed it on the head". Mark Driscoll saw himself in competition with other large churches and wanted to be the largest. Jesus is head of His church, no one else.
But all the talk about "accountability" seems to point toward an authoritarian religious organization, not toward *truth in the inner man.* If people do not have a fear of God, and its all about "getting by" with stuff, they can get by with it in an authoritarian system, just like they can in an independent church. All it takes is a pastor (or elder, as MD was) who knows how to work the system. Without a heart for the truth, it will alll be based on lies.
“There is a pile of dead bodies behind the Mars Hill bus. By God's grace, it'll be a mountain by the time we're done…. Either get on the bus or you get run over by the bus, those are the options. But the bus ain't gonna stop.”
Would this be Jesus's way?
Yes unfortunately this is the way of so many self built congregations which I cannot call a church. There is absolutely nothing of Jesus in how these are controlled because these men are not leaders, they are tyrants.
Shocking to hear his first hand true character after hearing how he speaks about himself in the beginning. God help us
This is why it’s necessary to deal with personal trauma because it comes out on stage when Mark speaks to people. I pray for his healing. He has very low views of women; I watched a lot of his sermons recently to try to get a different perspective and they center on “jezebel,” evil women, women controlled by spirits…I feel bad for his wife.
"....every time I hear his voice...". I fully understand that experience. That is how I feel when I hear Mike Bickle's voice. These Wolves have a distinct voice, and Jesus said, "My sheep hear my voice....John 10:27." These Wolves, Bickle, Driscoll, etc. have a distinct voice, like a "finger print," and when you hear it after having discovered the truth about them, it triggers a person. Their ability to lie with a straight face and tell fairy tales is their finger print and DNA. You know it when you hear it. I met Bickle in '82, disliked him from that moment and when I hear his voice (for it is distinct), it triggers me with anger (righteous and unrighteous).
He’s clearly such a liar - so sad - and he must be cracking down on people in his congregation having the freedom to freely live and talk. Unbelievable that so many ignored his disgusting behavior - what in the world??
yep… we were a part of it for about 15 months before we left 9 months ago
@@barbarastallings2475 so glad the sweet Lord pulled you out!! Freedom!
having served in a church where leaders "fumed" at jr staffers 'below' them...I still can't see how this bodily assault wasn't instantly reprimanded? Also, I wonder how this didn't make it in the RAFOMH podcast?
did you see who he had at Trinity last week?? Steven Furtick!
Furtick wasn't at Trinity, Driscoll was at the Elevation concert there
@@Iffmeister he says he was showing furtick around at the Real Faith studios which is the church
Why were the elders so afraid of him? Grown, adult men. Why, when Driscoll assaulted a pastor, didn't you intervene? Did anyone report this physical assault to the police? It's understandable that you wanted to see Driscoll restored. But the role of a church leader is also that of a shepherd of the flock. Not protecting them makes you dangerous. Weak leaders are dangerous. You can't keep playing nice with people like Driscoll. Demonstrate clear, definite strength. Strong boundaries. It's the only language people like him understand. If you are so afraid, then why not resign, & find strong, confident men who can? You've got to think of the flock. I'm sorry, because I believe you are a good man, but you've got to get tough with people like him.
Exactly. We should not fear man, we should fear Him who has the power to throw us into hell. Matthew 10:28. That's who I want to fear.
Yup. Fear of man is a sin. 👆 It often runs hand in hand with idolatry. It idolizes man over God.
He mentioned seeing Mark, fire people, then to lose their jobs. Did they fear losing their job, and what could be lost if they did lose their job?
Again, that points to idolatry. Caring more about the things we have here being taken from you vs. obeying and fearing God.
In The Bible, people often lost things to honor and obey God. It takes time, sometimes, but God eventually restores and sometimes GIVES MORE bc you've passed the test of fearing Him more than man or anything in this world.
Easier said than done.
That is what I ask. How did some many weak men get into leadership. I'm not surprised, how are they leaving out that he was against that women were wanting leadership positions. I was there during that time too. And the book that was bought by the church was given to me and all the cell groups in Olympia.
@@shannamathias4176 That is such a cop out.
Everything in life is "easier said than done."
You STILL DO IT!
I'm curious . . . why won't Mark Driscoll say which elders / pastors told him about their planned "nuclear option"?
Because in another podcast he says "the Lord told him"
You can bet he's like that in his marriage. His wife knows--he can and doesn't want to hide it from her. I bet there's carnage in their bedroom.
starting is saying that they were going to concuuse him of adultery almost sounds like he is trying to plant seeds of doubt when something does come out along those lines.
This is a very shrewd comment.
Do not understand how someone cannot leave a church. No church can control who leaves unless maybe some cults where you live there and they physically restrain you. Otherwise you can leave.
When you are terrified of a person in authority who's smeared the names of others who've left, when that person in power has incredibly deep pockets, when you're WHOLE community and family is wrapped up within that church and you know by leaving you will be ostracized and alone...it's very scary and very difficult. It's not impossible, but it has so many layers to it. It's not as simple as "just leave".
I get some don't get it. Usually it's people who haven't gone through this horror who see it as black & white. There is so much grey in between 😢
11:30 Who said what is not important? Excuse me?
Excuse me, you're making some pretty heft accusations. Yes, the names are important. Who said what and the nature of their character and if they have a reason to potentially be deceptive is VERY important.
6:24 - "ok investigate everything I know I am not disqualified
I know who i am i cant wait to stand before Jesus its going to
be a great day for me, not that i am perfect, but I know who
I am, and I know who He is" - Mark Driscoll
14:07 - Sorry for anybody to be as arrogant to think that they can stand
in front of Jesus I mean I am sorry like all of us fall short of
the glory of God and Jesus is sinful life all have fallen short so
for anybody to me say "I cant wait until the day I stand in front of
Jesus and tell Him how good I am" I mean its just remarkable its
shocking to me - Sutton Turner
Anyone see a problem here? Clearly Sutton is putting words in Marks mouth and claiming they are Marks words its the stuff like that this that make all of this seem like an outcome was predetermined before the investigation, it looks like soft people got together and started a movement to remove a Pastor that is long winded and is doctrinally sound BUT is a bit of a bull in a china shop because they want the word of God to conform to them not the other way around. Before all you Mars Hill people or Mark Driscoll haters come at me crying about your feelings know this IF u are going to attack a pastor like Driscoll tell the TRUTH not a version of it not bits a pieces the WHOLE TRUTH and if u have to lie or make up words u attribute to Driscoll then u lose the discussion and are acting in bad faith.
every time I have listen driscole speak I've heard lie after lie. Never EVER has he said anything that wasn't corrupted by falsehood. That's a fact. This guy needs to repent, shut up and go away for ever
I'm saying this with the uttermost respect for all of you involved. I wish the churches would appreciate more the knowledge and experience of people working in the psychiatry.
I'm talking about how there are narcissists and psychopaths out there in leadership positions.
For there to be restoration- the person has to want it. It involves the person acknowledge he or she did something wrong.
A narcissist or psychopath will not understand even that they did something wrong.
They will think its their God given birthright to dictate the situations.
The Lord didn't reveal anything of the sorts to Mark. Mark feels the fire under him. And then in his head crafts an out for himself where it's the world against him.
He has the signs of a narcissist all over him. A malignant grandiose one.
People like him should be "investigated" at the first certain signs of bad behavior and gaslighting because the potential to harm is so incredibly big and violent that if we wait, and let him have a chance and all that it means there is just more time for the narcissist to manipulate people, situations and craft their own narrative.
Sadly the church people know too little about this stuff.
There is really no need for a long process. If there is evidence - and there was evidence very very early in this case - of disqualifying behavior, confront at once. "U did xyz wrong are u interested in repenting and restoration? If the immediate answer isn't yes sorry man I'm so sorry I know I did so many sinful things I need to step down immediately so I can get some real counseling - if that isn't rhe answer it is time to get rid of those people. Not in a month. Now.
Not only did he decline resolution to the issues. He ran away because it was the only thing he could do while still keeping his narrative intact in his own mind. Namely that he is a man of God and do godly things for the church.
There are so many examples of prrwchers like this. There are so many leaders both in church and secular world that is like this.
They are toxic people that need to be removed at the first sign of bad behavior patterns. Not mishaps and mistakes. But patterns. Everyone makes mistakes. For Mark Driscoll, being toxic is the only way he knows how to live.
Is God able to fix? Theoretically he is. But there's a reason God also gave a list of disqualifying traits in a teacher.
If he was at my church, scolding a pastor and being violent for any reason at all, I would be so quick to boot him on the street out the door that he wouldn't know what struck him. Thats how serious it is.
As I said I respect all of you - especially you involved, I am not involved, and I appreciate how complex and hard the situation is and was. I'm not trying to be rude.
I just say the church ougtha be more awake as a whole when it comes to bad personalities like this.
One can't change other people. They gotta change themselves. And narcissists like Driscoll do not want to change. They do not see they wronged anyone. They believe its their God given right to act like they do. They will many times spin a narrative where the behavior is actually necessary.
The last thing they will do is to admit their wrongdoings.
I hope u guys find peace. And I encourage you other church leaders and elders out there to learn as much as you can about mental illnesses like this and how to avoid it, possibly connect with a professional like a psychologist to get advice from in insecure situations.
You know, the narcissists will sometimes be violent too. Physical i mean. It's MANDATORY that the church do whatever is necessary to protect the flock from leadership like that. Or even members like that.
I have one question. Where does the millions of dollars in his war chest come from? Are the people giving to the church incredibly wealthy or are there investments here and there, or possibly illegal stuff?
Please comment this information and words on the iHop Mike Bickle situation because it’s true there too!!!!
write a book why don't you
"Not that I'm perfect..."
As someone who had an explosion temper most of my life. I can definitely say. You have have a person who seems the nicest most down to earth person who seemed perfectly stable. That goes off and turns into an absolute monster, someone most people who knew them would never believe they were capable of being. Explosive is the right word for it. Like a package, looks innocent and is handled by many, until it goes off.
My dad had that. You never knew what to expect from one day to the next. My mom was truly a saint.
Its all about money these pastors are wolves
That's demon possession
The elders should be attending the same church
Not everything is demon possessed....bad behaviour is a lack of self-control and disconnection of will.
Thank you for the video, Sister Roys. S. Turner (if you are reading this), and you are faced with another opposition such as M. Driscoll then, I pray you would have courage. The church cannot afford to have those who are supposed to be watching (especially men) cower under fear of other men. There are self-defense tactics that can be learned to help us gain confidence. Sometimes, we have to be ready to meet the opposition with force for the sake of the body of Christ. Even with the fear, S. Turner, there is no excuse to have watched another life in danger and not act. Men have to be ready to fight as God made men protectors. My prayers are with you brother Turner, I saw your heartache on part 2 of this segment and I understand it so well. God bless you.
Yeah like multiple people would actually say something like that.. not even a good lie.. well actually it’s a good lie.. Mark D knew the only way they could get him out was if he committed adultery. Mark D is a legend in his own mind.
Mark, here's the bottom line. You will one day stand in front of Jesus and give an account.
Sounds like Mark committed adultry and this is a preemptive strike.
He may be faithful to his wife but he’s still a freaking liar. Damage control after he’s been exposed. Absolute bully.
9:53 "Don't believe everything you hear."
Okay, Mark, I'll start with the words coming out of your mouth.
My experience is that Christian leaders lie to save God's face when it's really their face they are saving. In other words, they are allowed to lie if it keeps their leadership going for God.
So why did this guy not resign and go work somewhere else
I’m glad I found your channel!
God brings judgment to His House first
Jesus said, "Feed my sheep," not "Beat my sheep," and that includes spiritual abuse. I've been a Christian for 45 years now, fellowshipped at 8 churches. 1 pastor had an affair with our church secretary and was forced by the elders to step down. 1 pastor was publically exposed by a male prostitute/masseuse for drug use and homosexual romps, he was also forced out. Another pastor was accused by his son of physical abuse , nothing happened there. The son left the church, and "Christianity." Another church, the#2 (co pastor) was fired for "inappropriate actions " and he went and started a cult.
That is just my experience in church, sadly, many churches have pastors living double lives.
I am so sorry to hear of your exposure to so many terrible pastoral fails. It seems that something is very wrong with the megachurch environment with kings at the top. They seem unable to remain faithful without spectacular falls. Maybe the whole model leads inevitably to failure. Maybe smaller churches with real accountability and reduced performance pressure is an antidote. Let’s re-embrace following Jesus in humility.
Driscoll is not qualified to lead a trash pickup along the highway, let alone a Church.
Character must precede giftedness. 1 Timothy 3:2-5 addresses character. A person can be a very good orator at a young age and not be mature. A mature person knows who is in control and it is not him but God.
Sounds like he has a spirit of anger and quick temperament. Needs to repent and be cast out!
Yay, love Mark Driscoll topic
Handing out books in the parking lot is not sinful. It's hilarious.
please look up 3rd day church in kingston ontario!!!
I just looked it up. WOW. So much like a charismatic evangelical church I attended after being saved in 2001, in Williamsburg Va. 😢 Cultish for sure.
Mark Driscoll didn’t start acting like a bully close to the time the board decided to create this list of 25 reasons he was not qualified. People like this act that way from nearly day one starting with small acts and word choices. Their bad behavior ramps up getting more egregious as time goes on. Beginning from day one, Driscoll created an environment and culture in which he could get away with the bad behavior…..until he couldn’t.
Mark's a liar
It's illegal to threaten to harm someone let alone lay hands on them. Why doesnt he get charged? It sounds like it's not a one off or rare heartbreaking moment for him.
may god bless you all
Driscoll needs to stop preaching on Nehemiah.
Every single person needs to stop going to Mark’s new church and stop supporting this manipulative man who lacks humility and integrity on every level. He is the truth beyond wolf in sheep’s clothing and his abuse will continue. I truly hope his family is safe.
Julie Roys is a woke, false teacher.. funny you trust her opinion
Unfortunately, there are plenty of people who are attracted to bullies and abusers.
@@ezbodyEspecially when they have come out or live in that atmosphere, in home or elsewhere.
I nearly fell for it, only because of Jesus, I didn’t go down that road again.
The Bible says, "Test every spirit." Satan performs miracles and folks assume it is the Holy Spirit. The "Fruits of the Spirit" are given as a guide for appointing leaders acceptable to God. If leaders do not consistently reveal the fruits of the spirit, there is "no light in them" Satan laughs!!
7:00 this is a pastor? Ha! You notice Jesus and scripture are replaced with “God told me” in so many circles.
Evangelical Christian Celebrity Complex: what a reality check.
One of the great failures of Julie and Sutton is to see people coming to religion as some kind of move of the Spirit...
That simply is not the case!
The fact is religion is the biggest Market in mankind and you get the right kind of cheerleader and right kind of charismatic leader and people decide to buy the product - and the fact is Jesus is the very best product without a question - as all the cons and griftersand hucksters have long known...
And now you have your Big Revival that you're so excited about but it's nothing but bullshit!
Have you done any research about how many stories you've put on your report that turn out to be not true?
Like a retraction? As far as I know, there hasn't been any. I believe Julie would post a retraction if something she reported on turned out to be false.
@@starlingswallow So you are saying that you have never reported on a story that turned out to be false or misleading? That you've never made a mistake?
@@starlingswallow Please don't misunderstand my intent here. I'm not saying that Julie doesn't do important work. Of course, people do not like her, as she exposes all manner of nastiness. I'm just curious if you have ever gone back and corrected misleading stories...similar to what she asks others to do.
"Pastor" John Paul Miller is one of these hucksters. Charismatic in church and a terror behind closed doors. I am horrified for his late wife, Mica, who everyone still thinks was driven to her death by that man's twisted and horrific abuse. Surrounded by people who worshiped her husband (instead of Jesus) and refused to HELP her.
May I ask you one question Ms Roy? Is it truly the way Jesus Christ directs us to deal with our fellow Christians by going online and destroying their names, affecting them and their families? My Bible directs us to go to someone one on one, a few to the sinner, before bringing to the church. It concerns me when individuals are condemning the church, Christ’s body.
I love Panera
23:14 - a professing Christian doing that one time and you'd have to question their salvation....
a "pastor" doing that?
Driscoll used absolute gaslighting to avoid accountability. He avoids the real reason he was outed and expelled. He even uses God Himself to avoid the truth!!! God told him to leave, he wasn't removed by his congergants. Yuk!!!
Thankful Jesus didn’t berate the disciples or worse, grab their throats and threaten them. What translation did they use at Mars Hill? Wonder if it’s used at His current church.
Despicable behaviour and shows there’s no change when these pastors claim it. Mark Driscoll seems to be a Lier , no reputable behaviour and is no different than an arrogant individual
Keep digging on Marky-Mark. He'd get vertigo in a sewer.
Can someone please explain to me, how is it possible, ' you are not ALLOWED to leave the church '
The sad thing is people will still sit under a person like Driscoll. Have you addressed the coverup at NTMA, now Ethnos 360?
So sad. There must be a volcano inside he needs help with.
And I feel so sorry for his family having to live with someone so explosive.
Not sure being rebuked publicly was necessary or helpful, but it would have been nice for him to receive help.
Thank you for this informative podcast.
Just wondering if a compulsive liar knows what humility is😮
Why do people go to these places? They do not know the scriptures!!!!
Many people grow up being spoon-fed the Bible because they believe the pastors that have been put in position have been fully trained and vetted. 😢 some HAVE been fully trained and vetted and still flip into one of these power hungry abusers.
Abusive churches LOVE when people don't crack open their Bibles for themselves to CHECK what they are being taught. It's laziness and I did it too, partly because I didn't think I was smart enough to study the scriptures and understand them on my own.
I overcame that childhood wound and dug in myself and got out of a cult. ❤
I understand that MD may be self indulgent. I understand that he has flaws and some arrogance but as the sone of a preacher myself, I’ve seen a lot of the behind the scenes in churches too. For elders to try to take power isn’t far out of the realm of the possibilities either. Even the leader of this podcast is saying that the owners of a car dealership are men of integrity, so yeah, I guess we all have our own views huh? I don’t believe that men that Mark led to Christ also always had his or Mars Hill’s best interest at heart. You would think that would mean something but I’ve personally seen that that’s not always the case. I think the message that MD brings is pretty amazing and the destruction of Mars Hill has done a lot more harm than good. Going to Mars Hill in Portland did nothing short of save my marriage. The fall of Mars Hill has stifled the reach of God’s word and people that would have gone there to find God really don’t have that as an option anymore. We are human. We like to be entertained . Not all of us want to go to the same ol boring services we grew up in, especially if you’re new to church.
Do Mark was human and made mistakes. Weird, I guess he isn’t Jesus. Got it. But, was it worth the lost souls? Am I to believe someone else that could’ve possibly believed they had power to gain in a church? That’s a tough one. In the end, some people have left the ministry for what they’ve seen or done and some have a clear conscience and are preaching in other places.
9:42 information control 😮😐
Julie was right
A lot of people are saying that biblically he is disqualified from leading a church….can some one explain why
Foul language, bully, abuser, liar, cheater, manipulator.
Have you watched these videos??? Wow!🤔
So if your Pastor was this violent and scary, why would you not just write a letter to the Pastor and Board and just quit?
Sometimes it’s hard to see the forest for the trees when you are so involved with a toxic situation. There’s usually a mixture of good and bad experiences that make everything so confusing and difficult. It’s the same reason why a battered woman doesn’t leave an abusive husband. There are other things holding her there like a desire to be loved and accepted or a lack of self esteem or identity. It’s like that boiling frog parable where the frog doesn’t realize it’s being boiled because the water gets too hot one degree at a time, until the frog is cooked.
@shannamathias4176 but all of this is hearsay. There is no physical evidence. There is just one person's word against another.
You will know someone by their fruit. If Marc Driscoll is really that awful of a person he wouldn't have the comeback he is having.
@@jodismith665 fruit is how you treat people, like love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Fruit and success are so often conflated. I just think there are way too many people saying similar things about how they were treated by him that all of them would be lying, at personal risk to themselves. Christianity doesn’t reward whistle blowers. It tells them they’re gossiping or causing division in the body of Christ and they are disbelieved. It’s not something you would just do for fun.
@shannamathias4176 I've been lied about by several people who got together and decided to say things that absolutely were not true. It devastated me, my reputation and my career.
I'm just very skeptical of people who jump on the bandwagon against Pastors who speak Biblical truths.
@@jodismith665 I think that’s fair and I see your perspective. That would really suck. I’m sorry that happened to you.
Honestly, if those guys really threatened Mark about making false accusations of adultery, that is really bad.
The fact that it is not in written notes does not mean it didn’t happen. Do you think people would write in their notes that they were thinking of making false allegations of adultery to get rid of him?
i left evangelicalism for Holy Orthodoxy and i will never go back. the best way i can explain it is that everything i ever hoped for in Church is there, and now everything in comparison seems like a cheap imitation. there was a Church before there was a new testament
Amen, Amen, Amen! ❤️☦️
Me, too. ❤☦️
What is Holy Orthodoxy?
I think any religious leader is vulnerable to the temptations of greed and power.
@@sarahuber8567 I agree, men are fallible, not matter where you go. The Orthodox Church is the original Church of the apostles, which has existed unbroken in its traditions and doctrine for 2000 years. The Roman Catholics broke off in 1054, and then all the Christianity we know about here in the west is a result of the protestant reformation of the 16th century, when the idea of “scripture alone” (Sola Scriptura) was adopted. The problem is that when the protestants were railing against the abuses of the Roman Catholic Church (quite understandably) they were ignorant of the Church in the east, which remained. The thing that changed my mind is when I learned through history that there was a church with traditions and established doctrine for hundreds of years before there was ever a new testament canon. In protestantism, any fallible man can pick up a Bible, open a “church” and preach what he thinks it means. in Roman Catholicism, they set up one man as infallible (the pope). only in Holy Orthodoxy is the correct teaching preserved. The Bible was put together for this Church, by this Church, and cannot be properly understood outside of this Church.
Where can I find part 2
Just wondering, Is Mark Driscolls preaching considered biblically sound? I understand that from this that He’s seen as a Unqualified preacher due to his personality but has he preached a wrong gospel?
I am far from an expert on him, so take what I am saying with a grain of salt. From what I understand, his sermons are biblically sound and engaging, which is part of why he attracts such a large following. But the issue is that his persona away from the pulpit is abusive, and that abuse is even sometimes subtly visible when he is preaching.
@@NoNameNumberTwo I’ve been to Trinity. Great preacher and now being bold against the transgender kid stuff etc while too many stay quiet.. but when he tells these stories don’t believe him? Not sure I trust him..
People whose main priority is "well, are they biblically sound?"
would follow a serial killer for a pastor as long as their teachings from the pulpit were "biblically sound"
His preaching is straight from the Bible. He goes a book at a time, a chapter at a time. People who call this church a “cult” are discrediting good, sound, Biblical teaching. If people have issue with the man himself, that’s another story
@@briceheers469 remind me again where he earned his PhD in theology? I mean if he's a biblical scholar I'd really like to know where he studied? How "straight from the Bible are we talking ?" He teaches from the original Greek I assume? with understanding of the Greek audience it was written to?
Remind me again why the book he has coming out on 1st and 2nd Kings wasn't able to be published by any publisher at all , and now he's self self-publishing it? Why can't a serious academic get their book published? weird?
Think how horrible Mark must act with his wife and children if he acts that way in public! He needs help with anger management. I feel so sorry for his family.
Do you have actual facts or are you just making blind assumptions? NOT very Christian at all of you.
Me, too. I was married to one of these "godly men".... it was hell on earth 😢
So, Sutton... did you give the money back? Talk is cheap.
Mark Driscoll didn't have any "great" moral failing, he was just a jerk!
I feel evangelicals only view sexual sin as immoral, and it’s unfortunate, because abusing people, using your power to subvert, is immoral as well, or we’re you speaking tongue in cheek?
@@sarahmotlong949 obviously I was. Hence the quotation marks around the word great. Yes all of that is sin too and we should have a zero tolerance policy in all churches for any kind of abuse
Sin of pride = lacks humility. Lacking in self-control. Abusive speech. What comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart. Absolutely unqualified for ministry.
Any Christian who claims to "hear" from god is unprofessional. Even if it is true (which its not) it is a power play in the relationship.
😮 this is eye-opening..
So pastors investigated Mark? Not trained investigators? Interesting....
Elders had a duty to look into reports of abuse, which they observed. They don’t have be “trained” to ask questions. If there are laws that were violated, then by all means being on others who are competent.
This guy must be Mike Bickle's brother from another mother. Same lying spirit.
Not all of em were in on and discussed the false adultory plan but some did in private.
how do you know that?
Drisolle was imperfect and rude, but preached the gospel with more fidelity than anything I see here.
We preach the gospel with how we treat others, with how we live. The behavior described here is not Christian at all. And a pattern. Sounds like a psychopath.
@@flowergirl-pp7vz “love” without truth is evil. It’s actually hate.
I believe you’re the wolf Julie. You try to sound just and you bring in all your riffraff on your program to make you look so pure and honest, BUT YOU’RE NOT what you claim to be.
What substantive critique of Julie do you have to offer?
any PROOF? Or, are you simply blowin smoke out your butt?
If you take the time to notice the demeanors of Sutton Turner and Mark Driscoll, you can see that one has peace and the other looks a little frazzled. You be the judge on who may be innocent and who may be guilty. Ultimately we will all stand before the Lord to give an account. As someone who has the gift of discerning of spirits, I can tell you there is something demonic about one and not the other. Mark Driscoll has been put through the ringer and this just adds to it. I respect Julie as a investigative journalist but I think she is wrong on this one. Jesus says by their fruit you shall know them. I see many people commenting against Mark, but just take a look at the fruit. Which ones leadership would you like to be under? To me it's obvious. I know that we should not only go by feelings or intuitions but I'm sure more of the real truth will come out and vindicate Mark. I've been blessed by some of Mark's preaching and teaching and think he has been wrongly accused for many of the things that so called church accuses him of. Mark, I'm praying for you.
LOLOLOL!!!!! YOU have "a gift of 'discerning spirits'?" NO, actually; you have the "gift" (?) of spewing B.S. .....
Our intuition IS the Holy Spirit....but many off churches preach that we cannot trust it. It's God given ❤
@@starlingswallow Amen. I guess then what they are preaching is that we can't trust God.
Too bad there wasn’t more grace and less lawyering in the whole situation. Have some grace
sorry, did you mean "GREASE"?
Maybe he should no longer be a pastor, but I am blown away by all the judgement here. Don’t like him, don’t listen or follow him.
Are all of you here without sin?
Even Julie has a checkered past.
Re: Sarah
Jesus said not to judge hypocritically. Meaning not to judge others for what we are currently doing ourselves. Jesus said to take the log out of your own eye so you can see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's. Not to leave the speck in and judge not.
Unless those in the video and comment section are committing the same sins as Mark Discoll then they can freely judge him for his sins.
Also, God forgives the repentant. We shouldn't bring up forgiven sins of others. Mark has not repented and so the judgement continues.
Re: Sarah… explain please.
I find you to be very JUDGEMENTAL.....
A few things….why did it take so long for Mark to be held accountable?
Secondly….how is this healing the situation?
IMO this is gossip and is not strengthening the body ….. the church should not be entertaining this stuff.
I’am an elder of a church in a similar position, we need to keep our integrity above this, not got tit for tat
Hi Mick! Good questions. I feel it is extremely necessary, protective and Biblical to point out wolves in sheep's clothing. Paul and others in Scripture stated BY NAME people that had wronged them and/or not supported their ministry and specifically told the sheep to have nothing to do with them. 1 and 2 Timothy are great examples of Paul's warning. Other helpful Scriptures are: Matthew 7:15 & 10:16, Acts 20:29 & 2 Peter 2:1. There are others. Julie does an excellent job protecting and WARNING the bride of Christ. 👏 I, personally, have gleaned much wisdom and discernment from her uncovering the deeds of darkness. 🧐
Having a critical spirit is a different subject, but certainly unBibilical. I have never felt that is Julie's heart. Her heart is to shine LIGHT on darkness and expose sin...period. She has more bravery and courage than most Christ followers I know. If pastors and elders followed her stellar example, we wouldn't have so many churches falling away from the Truth because there would actually be immediate accountability.
I do feel it's essential that we also pray for God to lead Driscoll and others to repentance. It's not enough to call them out. We must also lift them up. That is a Scriptural command. 🙏
@@margojo624 hi Margo mate :)
Yes I agree, however Iam concerned that this topic will be talked about in 1,2,5 or even 10 years time
It needs to be put to bed as we should not be spending our time condemning the condemned … we have work to do
That’s my view anyway
Hi again brother, I think most of us have wrongly understood gossip, also. You may enjoy this explanation by Julie herself: ruclips.net/video/wTlB1JdXBhQ/видео.html
I do understand what you mean about not dragging this out forever. The problem is, TRUTH is still coming out regarding Driscoll and the thousands of people he bullied and deceived, including his own family. 🥺
Very difficult to “put this to bed” when he is still in a role of pastoral leader…
Hi Mick- this podcast is in reply to Mark D’s very recent claim while preaching at Trinity that there was a plan to accuse him of cheating on his wife… as a last ditch effort to push him out of leadership at Mars Hill.
Over the years others have said it and now it seems confirmed that under duress Mark D leans toward paranoid thinking…. and maybe even storytelling.
His bullying leadership style continues and it’s tragic that someone with his giftedness is/was unwilling to get the help he needs.
At the very least It looks like it’s being said that he conflated things about this so called “plan” to accuse him of cheating on his wife 😢
The problem was you trying to punish people taking Gods place. Even if he sinned you aren’t the arbiters here
Julie Roy is nothing more than a critical spirit masquerading as a "discernment ministry."
and you obviously have a "spirit" of IDIOCY.....
The way to reform organized religion is STOP giving tax breaks all churches!!!