I gently encourage those in the comments who take offense to the more progressive lean in this episode to look beyond it for a moment and recognize that it's still objectively wrong to preach on-demand sex as a religious obligation. I ascribe to the complimentary theological model, like most of the people who were upset with the coverage in this episode, but I urge you all to look past politics for a moment and see that Driscoll's teachings would still be gravely wrong coming from any other political or theological view. The pitfall here is sexual sin, and that is nothing new. It's very easy to for abuse, perversion, and shame to crop up in a system that is heirarchy-focused, and so the patriarchy is an easy target here. But we've been warned since the inception of the church that sexual sin would accompany false teachers. That's what's really going on here. Look beyond the political ideas explored in this episode and seek the moral heart of what's going on. Driscoll preached things that tickled certain ears, hypersexualizing scripture and reducing both men and women to a caricature of themselves. His system is not God's design.
This isn't an episode that accomplishes what the makers intend for those of us who know the truth. We can be disgusted at the sexual themes of Driscoll, while also being disgusted at the agenda pushed by the creator.
May I ask did you actually listen to Mark Driscoll or did you take this pages History of Mark Driscoll because I've listened to Mark just before quite a while and that wasn't exactly what I took from his messages now remember when you have a vise that generally you have a problem with twisting what is there to make your side look better and unfortunately we both know that this is a very biased episode in this I'm not going to say that Mark didn't mess up we're all human we're all sinners say by grace I didn't get that from this message is personaly. Now not to say that I've listened to every message he's had because I haven't but his general air and what he taught I didn't get that
To that last question "is it worth the fruit?" I would call into question if it really is fruit or if it's just the grace of God coming in and shifting through the madness to save people. God can use anything to save and he will use fallen broken situations to show truth.
Absolutely. Most of the time, God is doing things despite our failings rather than us actually being useful. We're genuinely useful only as far as we're humble about our roles.
@@Window4503- Not sure that's true. We all have narcissism to deal with, pastors often being very guilty of this flaw, yet narcissists are often go-getters where others hem and haw and tend towards uselessness to some degree. As much as humility is vital to the Christian Journey, being "genuinely useful" can come with degrees of selfish pride. We are quite complex creatures, can be proud about our roles, and accomplish great things for God. ( Sounds like your first sentence, but we differ on your following statement. )
Around 46:00 mark where other Christian leaders were willing to overlook some problems with Mark's teaching because he "checked certain doctrinal boxes" -- that's a really good point. And damn, when Sarah Bessey around 49:00 says that "women / people are needing to re-learn that God loves them..." Wow.
Potiphar's wife and the imbalance of power... thank you, CT. People in positions of power (like pastors) rarely talk about power dynamics. Humans are obsessed with imposing hierarchy. But Jesus said the first will be last in His kingdom.
Hierarchy is simply a fact of human community, and can be either beneficial or destructive. The issue isn't whether Jesus has raised up men to lead the Church as he clearly has, but rather if those men are godly, humble servants, desiring to see the flock grow in love and grace.
@@mchristr I don't think your drawing from the fullness of the Master's teaching - about the least being the greatest... Mark wasn't a servant - especially as the years went on - he was all about Mark...
You did a great job presenting the situation of the women of Mars Hill. The description and analysis of a woman’s position and value transcend the facts and allow me to glimpse the despair they must have felt. Well done.
Literally appalled by what l heard from Driscoll regarding personally sexually explicit details. I am no prude but what he said was inappropriate and nauseating. It reveals that he has a perverted mind to reveal intimate details about his own sex life. I am sure his wife was embarrassed and humiliated, but of course, l am sure she wouldn’t be allowed to tell him so! I feel sorry for women who are brainwashed into thinking they have to do whatever they’re told, even if it violates their own conscience. Its just disgusting! At any rate, this is the situation. The church as a whole, does not know how to actually treat women as equals in the light of scripture. We don’t know how to rightly divide the word of truth because our way of looking at some scriptures put women in the position of subservience to men with assigned roles and expectations and men (and some women) are determined to use those scriptures to continue to develop their cookie cutter idea of female believers. So whereas men can choose their careers and fulfill their goals and dreams by making a living in whatever way they choose, be it a musician, a public speaker, an educator, a mathematician, preacher or an astronaut, a woman, regardless of her intelligence, level of education or personal desires is always automatically assigned the “role” of homemaker and mother. Women are told to sing to your children, teach your children, pour your life into your children- that is the primary female assignment according to pastors, husbands, and many others, including many other Christian women. So there’s no place for women to function outside of those limited expectations. If your an author, write Children’s books or something that supports the home and family, books on submission are acceptable and encouraged. But what if you’re an artist or you like to do woodworking or you’re great with technology? That would be frowned upon. And you might be a gifted teacher and even have a Master’s degree in Theology but you wouldn’t even be allowed to teach a Sunday School class in church. If you go outside the box and pursue a career, many people within the church will ostracize you. So while the “woke” world willingly embraces women’s talents, abilities and giftings which are God given, the Church rejects the use of any of those to be used outside a small circle of possibilities. At the same time, its being discovered more and more that the men who ride herd on their churches and have such rigid expectations of women are often the ones with leaders who are out of control with temper fits, are sexually perverse, having affairs or are abusive husbands, therefore having fearful, controlled wives, afraid to speak up about oppression and violence, or express a desire to do anything outside their “assigned” role, with many women living like victims with Stockholm syndrome. So the ideologies of the patriarchy, misogyny and nationalist conservatism are associated with the church because it’s primarily the church people who hold most closely to those ways of running homes and government and those ideas come from the way scripture is taught and implemented in the church and the home. I am personally a patriot, a conservative, do not believe in abortion, and know there are only two genders. There are many women like me who hold a lot of these beliefs but don’t hold with being squished into roles that just don’t fit all of us. Many men love control because its men who have that innate desire to control religions, countries, governments, churches, families and individuals. It’s taught that all the power struggle problems arise from women wanting control their husbands and always trying to take control from men, but that’s another lie. Women simply want to be respected just like men do and women, by and large, are not respected at all by most men. For those men who are the exception, good for you, but you are the exception and not the rule. Feminism came into being because for centuries women had no choices. They couldn’t own property. They couldn’t vote. They couldn’t hold a job or get a bank loan. Most had no choices about who they could marry or even if they wanted to marry. Most were expected to marry a person their father approved of and spend their lives keeping house and raising kids, as many as their bodies could bring forth before cratering. They were expected to not deny their husbands physically and to obey them “in everything.” Well, all l can say is that sounds terrible. I was married for 34 years and we had some hard times and difficulties but l had equal say in everything. l was not oppressed and never looked on my husband to be minded like l was a child. Something is terribly wrong with this picture and the way women are treated by the church. Many Christian women are treated almost as bad as Muslim women, and that’s saying something because their lives are awful. The fact is that on average a woman or girl is killed by a man every 9 minutes of every day of every year, and that’s in so-called developed countries where records are actually kept. It’s probably way worse in communist and Muslim countries. Women make up over half of the body of Christ, yet we continue to be treated as subordinates. Both my grandmothers were abused and had horrible lives, the same with my mom. In my 65 years, about 60% of all the women lve known personally and worked with have been physically and-or psychologically abused and a lot of the men involved sat on church benches and professed to be followers of Christ. I know some Christian women who are treated very well and are happy as mom’s and homemakers and lm very happy for them and thankful, but the ones who truly are treated well by their husbands behind closed doors are way less than Christians would like to think.
I have enjoyed listening to the first few episodes but this is the first one that I think the people at CT let their politics and beliefs influence the content instead of telling this as a narrative story. I like the fact that in the other episodes, they let other people tell their interactions with Mark and other members of the church. Let’s stick to what the Bible says about men and women would be my charge to us believers. Remember God is holy and won’t be mocked. Sin is so devastating that it required the sacrifice of the son of God. You should be able to talk about anything and keep it biblical understanding that some of us have different levels of faith and understanding at different times in our lives.
@@Joey-b8w who said anything about it being vengeance? Are you saying that you wouldn’t intervene physically if you witnessed a man beating a woman out of concern that you’re getting revenge towards that man? Your concern should be for the physical well being of the woman.
I understand being openness about sex and sexuality in the church but there is a really no need to detail these things so much. And the way that he says it's for God's "daughters to do and his sons to enjoy." What about male stripping? Is that okay? Isn't sex supposed to be about loving each other and the ultimate expression of love? Again the woman in the situation is just a tool it's just to be there. It's the kind of thinking that goes behind female circumcisions. This kind of thinking says that a woman does not deserve to enjoy even though God clearly created women this way to enjoy it.
Good challenges back. It's a blindspot often with Conservatives / Traditionalists who re-stress the man being THE head of the household, which translates to serving his sexual needs. Why? To them it's obvious that HE has the high sex drive, must be attended to, and the woman finds all of her pleasure in doing so against her wants, desires, needs. If that ain't selfish of men, then I don't know what is. And what if the woman's sex drive is higher than her man's?! LoL.
I started watching this series because I was critical of Driscoll of how everything ended there at Mars Hill, how he brought in Warren, and wanted to know more about the story. 5 episodes in, listening to the liberal slanted narration and reading the weak comments about “toxic masculinity” I realize just how hard feminism has taken over and destroyed the modern church and family. I have much more respect for Driscoll now. He pushes back on this crap. I may go check him out in Phoenix!
At best, Mark Driscoll didn't always practice what he preached. Yes there are men in the church who should be rebuked for failing to lead their homes. However, that is not an excuse for him to act toxic himself.
It's interesting that CT seems to take the toxic culture of Driscoll and Mars Hill and lump it together with general conservatism / patriotism in a perjorative way (earlier in this episode). The remainder of the episode is a good skewering of the Mars Hill culture.
Yah; very clumsy smearing in an otherwise even handed series. Pearl clutching and from progressive left leaning, lgbtq+ social justice warriors rings hollow. The much earned criticism needs to come from a scriptural basis not worldly apostate theologians/academics using a 2020s pc measure.
3 replies missing here. What a contemptuous podcast!! Hypocracy just reeks here. Talk about gas lighting. Pharisees comes to mind. I know little about Mark Driscoll but my mother taught me that if you can’t say something nice don’t say anything at all. If you want an example of gas lighting well I can say whatever I like because I’m cool and you can’t because you’re not cool. Teenagers world.He needs boundaries and a whole lot of Ritilin. CT should have been around 60 years ago when the preachers screamed brimstone and fire if you dared go to a movie or have short hair or wear makeup you could be up for excommunication.Next thing you knew they were doing a lot of visiting with widows. how the pendulum swings. Mark sounds hysterical,out of control and seems to shoot from the lips, but you guys are even more pompous. OK Mark has ADHD that much is very very obvious. Motormouth,energetic,hyperactive,impulsive,loose canon. TAKE HIM TO SEE DR. DANIEL AMEN who has clinics in several American cities,including Seattle. He has podcasts on RUclips and just google him. HE HAS A MEDICAL PROBLEM,,,,,,,,,,,DONT CRUCIFY! HELP HIM.‼️🇨🇦 Why in the world would you listen to this Sara Johnston??? Who is she?? A little demon that Satan has recruited to tear down others?
That would help. The ability to think critically would go a long way, too. I wonder what the average level of education was within this group. I mean the sort that actually "educes" human intelligence rather than just citizen factories or religious training.
@@vicj2141 No the original comment hit the nail on the head , the reason people get involved in cults, highly controlling religious, environments and/or fundamentalism is for an emotional need. it has nothing to do with critical thinking, though i wish it did.Very highly educated people including doctors, engineers etc get involved in cults and controlling environments all the time, because it's not about thinking with your brain it's about an emotional need that the cult meets at that time.
@@vicj2141 A lot of them were very young, innocent, gullible - just like most people who get into religion - if they were not so raise - and, thus, easily taken advantage of and indoctrinated by those who they think "really know God", etc.
Let’s not look over the fact that there were men in the complementarian camp who had and were calling out Mark Driscoll for years, such as John MacArthur and Justin Peters to name just two.
Ok this has been interesting so far but if i hear that lady say conservative evangelicals one more time... Jeez this got political conpared to the others
At least in everything I heard - in the in the general sense I have - Mark was all about the men being sexually fulfilled - at no point did I hear - nor have generally understood in any significant way - that there was a HUGE focus on women being sexually fulfilled - or related... I heard focus on men receiving oral sex - something not all women enjoy doing - I did NOT hear about men GIVING oral sex - which if done reasonably correct is something MOST women really enjoy and appreciate (and not a few men in giving it...). If anybody knows that Mark's actually emphasis was 50/50, I would appreciate hearing that side....
living my whole life going to many different churches (Navy), if I heard the pastor yelling at the congregation like that, I’d have left. Mark taught things that are important but it’s the Mark show. Everything about church should point to Christ and Christ alone.
When speaking in Scotland, Mark Driscoll said that oral sex was biblical and that women should proform oral sex on there husbands, but does it work both ways? Should men proform oral sex on their wives? If not, this is a form of toxic masculinity or masagony.
Yes. Mars and Mark was not ashamed to break down Songs of Solomon and "mutual" oral. It's one of many Biblically endorsed pleasure practices within the confines of a loving marriage.
I cannot stand this man. He is the opposite of what a pastor should be and an example of the worst kind of husband, father, person that claims to be a Christian. I'm physically ill listening to this!
All you have to do to become aware of Christianity today's hard leaning progressive stance is to listen to this episode. The ideals which they tacitly support and the ideals on which they ever so casually laugh at and place blame tell you everything you need to know. I'm pushing through this entire series but my already low opinion of CT just decreases and decreases. Maybe our liberal brothers and sisters need to spend some time reflecting inwards rather than always jumping to the politics of white nationalism, heteronormativity, and the "evils" of the nuclear family
I noticed it very strong in this episode. I was starting to think this whole 11 part podcast was a little unChrist like, I don't think I'll listen to anymore. Praying for everyone this podcast may have swayed from the Lord.
If I listened to this and didn't know it was from CT, I would have mistakenly assumed it was presented by NPR. It has a healthy dose of condemning toxic masculinity as explained by a multitude of gender studies experts. Most of this episode was dedicated to beating up traditional values, marriage, and marriage roles. The episode was far more ideologically driven than previous ones. Many of Mark Driscoll's sermons were creepy enough as they were, the woke preaching was unnecessary.
you guys don't know the hell some women have gone through after the church fell a part if you want to become men and deal with sexuality. You need to start with behavior first. You have no idea the hell some women have gone through
Just because it’s ideological doesn’t make it incorrect. Just because something might be on npr doesn’t make it incorrect either. Do you believe in man made climate change yet?
@@teamblair466The climate of the earth has always changed and gone though cycles. Im not saying man has no effect on it but climate change is not the "sky us falling" crisis that global elites are trying to sell. They see us as vermin dirtying up their planet bc they think their money is going to somehow make them immortal. The world will end when God is good and ready for it to and all the recycling and EV's in the world is not going to change that. Furthermore, the solution is certainly not "let's put a bunch of restrictions on ppl and make energy unaffordable to those in poverty or on the edge of it" bc those ppl will end up dead. When poor ppl have to chose between food and heating thier home ppl die. Which is exactly what the elite architects of the climate change lie want. I bet you are a good, kind and compassionate person but don't let liars take advantage of your compassion. I was a die hard liberal most of my life bc I thought I was standing up for the marginalized and disaffected in our society but then I learned the truth. Don't throw your lot in with ppl who fly private jets around the world and tell us we can't drive cars and we should eat bugs. The supposed climate crisis drum has been beating for as long as I can remember and if the climate warriors were right we should already be dead and the Earth should've been in flames and unlivable since ten years ago. If you want to know the truth of how to make the world a better place then open the Bible and follow the instructions of Jesus and the Apostles bc that's where the unchanging objective truth really resides. God bless you. I pray you'll take my words into consideration and know that they truly come from a place of love.
with how 'out in the open' these characterizations are it almost makes me wonder how credible the testimony is. I'll have to look into Driscoll to see the other side of the story
It's the same problem as the IBLP (Institute of Biblical Living Principles)- See Shiny Happy People documentary, and every other cultic teachings. Creating fence laws from scriptures taken out of context to control your own and other's morality. But in this instance, the burden to control is put on the wife. Wives do this to control your husband's sexual urges or desires for porn. Obedience to fence laws doesn't work and isn't Biblical! Jesus broke fence laws, but He obeyed every single law of God. Fence laws cut out the conviction of the Holy Spirit and submission to God. It's not about humility and honoring God but pride in being self-righteous and controlling others behavior to benefit yourself. Judgment day on these Pastors will be terrifying! See James 1:3, Matthew 18:6-7, Ezekiel 34:7-8,10.
This video is a good example of the Jezebel Spirit. A pastor criticized for true biblical teaching that a woman’s place is in the home caring for children because it dis-empowers women? Sounds like something a Jezebel would say. I was raised by a stay-at-home mom & have felt like such a failure because I’ve had to work outside the home as a divorced single-parent. Unable to give my all or my best to my family, education or my career, while under constant high stress, paying bills by ’shut off notice'. My heart breaks for young mothers leaving their infants @ 6-12 weeks with a caregiver to return to work. At least my kids were in grade school before I had to return to work. In today’s world it’s almost impossible for a large family to buy a home on only one income so we sacrifice our children to Moloch, hand them over to others to care for and put them in “free” government indoctrination centers so we can "keep up with the Jones’”. That’s where Jezebel's “empowering women” got us.
The Jezebel "spirit" is not a biblical concept. Where in the Bible does it say Jezebel a SPIRIT? Nowhere. Are there women who act like Jezebel? Uncertainly. But that's because of the human sinful nature, not because they're possessed or controlled by an entity that the Bible never mentions.
Is advising church wives to buy a stripper pole and dance naked for their husbands - this after a lifetime of being sexually shamed and told their only value is remaining a virgin - the way to true empowerment? Women struggle to balance family and work in significant part due to a lack of spousal and societal support.
@@mdlmomma9167 remaining a virgin until marriage is definitely biblical, empowering, and not shaming, it’s called the virtue of chastity. It's honoring & cherishing yourself, your body, your sexuality as the temple of the Holy Spirit. If you possessed a priceless, exquisite, rare jewel, painting, or even automobile would you protect it and not just give it away to the first man that coveted it? Read Song of Solomon if you want to better understand how God cherishes you.
I disagree. It's a Christian Church with problems. A cult is more like a heresy or Christian spinoff that abandons the Nicene Creed or essential doctrines (e.g. JW, LDS), or (stronger version) a charismatic leader who is blantantly teaching nonsense to get power, money, and sex (e.g. organizations that have their members labour for the leader, give the leader huge amounts of money or where women sleep w the leader or he marries many of the women). MH/Driscoll is not bad or errant enough to be a cult; as far as I can see, they were vanilla Baptist Christians with a bad leader and the follies of modern American culture.
As a woman who loves God more than liberal and progressive ideals... This episode is woke and pathetic. I love the overall series but why is Christianity today so freaking liberal ? What happened to biblical Christianity ?
Excuse my language, but that is some disturbing shit going on. Real men from the world of construction would have called Mark out, even the ones that are disturbed and unregenerated. I hope Mark gets some help.
I knew of mark but didn’t really listen much. There is NO question that men and women have different roles and the beast system we live in is trying desperately to undermine Gods created order. That in and of itself should be all a Christian needs to know in order to take a side. If God wanted men and women to be the same He would have made us the same, but CLEARLY we are not; biologically, mentally….ect.
I'm familiar with the more conservative as well as progressive strains of theology reflected in this video. Can't say I agree completely with either side portrayed here. Shocking. Would a hierarchy of the man being the leader WHILE being partners in the home work rather well? After many, many years of pondering, prayer and observation, of conservative to progressive couples, it seems like an obvious "Yes". For most couples. Maybe not all, to the more liberal take. One couple's Trad-Con style actually might not work well for another couple. But what also doesn't work? Progressives to dog the actually well-oiled machine of conservative marriages. RE: Sex. This episode brought me mixed feelings. On the one hand Driscoll was being far more open and freeing ( like Liberals would be about sex, perhaps ) regarding oral sex, how to dress, stripping for one's husband. These are ironically rather progressive, to those who would think he's merely being a "porn-minded" archaic version of a sexist, objectifying man. Really? He's bringing the honest sexuality of many men to women and telling them both: You're married, don't go outside to an actual strip club, how about bringing it home and enjoy it there!? Sounds amazingly freeing in sexuality. For Progressives to sit there and reduce the heart of that message to being "the porn mind-set" is either lazy, sexist, possibly prudish, or maybe just narrow-minded and self-centered. Why? Because it smacks of projecting their "stuff" onto him RATHER than CELEBRATING the Freedom and Pleasure and Love this could bring marriages. If YOU don't like oral sex, whether you're a woman OR a man, then fine, negotiate how you want it. My guess is the vast majority of men do. But my guess is that women ALSO love it. Which leads me to... Not done yet. As to the examples only being about what a woman can do for a man DOES diminish marital sexuality down to: Woman, serve thee thy man. Blecch. Even in much of actual porn ( videos ) the man is absolutely serving the woman, giving oral sex, contrary to the gross assumption made in this video that porn is only about men and how they "objectify" women. Wrong. Do more research, or at least be humble as to your ignorance. And please, please be open to the probability that most women won't admit to their secret fantasies, sexual kinks, etc., because of the old expectation to be a princess and a lady. As if women aren't into Erotica or "animalistic" sex as one woman criticized in this episode. Sex is always to be genteel, always romantic, always staring into each other's eyes, no experimentation, no "having sex" instead of "making love"? In this respect both Driscoll AND the progressive commentators in this episode missed the mark, respectively. We can learn from each other. One camp's idea of sexual freedom is another camp's shame. One woman's turn-on is another woman's degradation. THAT is how VARIED our sexuality can be. And it can be fine, good, freeing, amazing, within their own particular contexts. We can actually disagree in these matters and still love God, be of one Unity in Spirit, in Love, Truth and Grace. P.S. - On the matter of a wife's "duty" to have sex with their husband every day? Well, doesn't it depend on whether they negotiated for that, she agree, and she isn't fulfilling that? Or maybe they didn't agree to that and she has a point in pushing back on it as a now demand. Valid. Context always matters. Vice versa, BTW. If the man is not fulfilling his end of the agreement, fair to challenge him squarely on that. We shouldn't lie, break those agreements, but why can't we re-negotiate the agreement later? This hard-line rule ( out of his @ss, it sounds like ) to have sex with one's husband every day smacks of sexism, NOT the kind of Christian loving relationship where both are of equal value, dignity and respect.
These commentators are missing the messages from the Bible on marriage. You aren’t “partners” with your wife. You’re one. That means you’re different parts of the body with different roles. This is one of the things Mark gets right. He definitely got things wrong and you all get this topic way wrong.
MD was a tyrannical leader who crossed the line in so many ways. Let's get that out of the way first. With that said, I found it an amazing contrast to juxtapose the first few episodes detailing MD's message to men vs this episode detailing MD's message to women. MD (esp in Episodes 3 and 4) railed on the men for failing to live Biblically defined masculine lives. The focus was on the style of messaging, the homophobic rants, the use of the William Wallace 2 account, and other forms of brow beating. Little was said of the actual content of the message, as it's pretty darn Biblical to demand men step up as men and lead, pray, protect, and serve their wives and household -- put down the porn, put down the beer, put down the video games, and actually plug into your wife and family!!! But the way he delivered this message crossed from tough love to inappropriate many times. In this episode, however, the toxicity was the content itself, not just the delivery. MD spoke about Song of Solomon as instructive, not just an interesting love story ... one that really illustrates how marital desire to please one another ought to work. He backed this with Corinthians and other passages that demands sex be a foundational part of a marriage and how withholding this sex does lead to the temptation that Paul (Holy Spirit, really) wrote about. MD again crossed the lines with profanity and awful delivery, but this episode focused a lot on the toxicity of the underlying message more than the profane/inappropriate manner in which it was delivered. When men are challenged to live masculine lives as defined by the Bible, the content is OK but the delivery is terrible. When women are challenged to live feminine lives as defined by the Bible, the delivery is offensive but the content is the real trauma. CT really demonstrates the influence of culture here. We're generally OK calling out men ... but don't dare tell a woman what to do. That's traumatic, "spiritual abuse," and so on. So many of the women talked about the heavy burden that placed on them (a command to be sexually active with their husbands) and how that was unfair and unhealthy. OK, how is that any different than the heavy burden placed on the men? That's why sanctification is a lifelong process -- the direction given in the Bible is really hard to do and is counter-culture ... and counter to our own self-interested desires. Being told to be submissive to God and be submissive to your husband is about the most toxic thing a person can tell a woman in today's post modern culture ... but it is very much Biblical. Rail all you want on MD's delivery, as it is most certainly profane, offensive, and inappropriate. But, the doctrine that speaks to women's responsibility to meet their husbands' sexual needs is pretty solid, despite how CT wants to characterize it here. If I tell a person, "Eat your vegetable because they're healthy, you rotten, f--ing, son of a b---h!" I'm clearly unhinged, abusive, and wildly inappropriate. You'd do well to walk away from me. I'm a jerk. But, that doesn't also mean that eating your vegetables is unhealthy.
It’s interesting that you think MD telling women to provide oral sex and strip for their husbands is Biblical femininity. I dont see this listed in Proverbs 31. I do see the NT tell BOTH husbands and wives not to deprive each other except for a time when mutually agreed upon. Song of Solomon is a descriptive book-not prescriptive. MD interpretation and exposition of the book from the pulpit is disgusting and grotesque.
An authoritative marriage model was not advanced by Jesus; to the contrary: He modelled servant leadership; by calling and uplifting His followers to be acting as His friends. Fittingly husbands and wives should submit to one another - in reverance to Christ. Very much needed though, for women to be called back into their homes, and to be honoured and respected for fulfilling their calling as wives and mothers there. The lie that women are supposedly empowered by being enabled to compete with men outside their homes, should be laid bare. So very harmful for children to be robbed from a mother's care, and a safe home environment; this while routinely, wilfully exposed by their parents to stranger danger. Truth is that most modern men are demanding this from their wives, with many literally being forced to not work at their own homes; meaning that women are ending up exhausted, burned out, and in reality not accomplishing much in any role. The thief comes to steal, kill, and destroy... Sadly it seems MD's failures, and sinful conduct in some areas are now serving as justification to advance the feminist agenda?
Some of the key points that needed to be addressed were addressed. Mark and his church, along with many others in our culture, have pushed the narrative that sex is for men to enjoy and women to give. The Bible has mentioned over and over again that sex is for husband and wife to both enjoy inside of marriage. The gender roles being propagated by Mark and other men in society today have taken these Bible passages and run with them to an extreme. That being said, Christianity Today along with many of the sources used to refute Mark hold to clearly anti-biblical beliefs and push ideas that are contrary to biblical principles. Both sides have their faults and I’m tired of there being no platforms in the middle ground.
GOD IS THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN PASS JUDGEMENT ON ANOTHER. THE LORD REBUKES SATAN IN ALL FORMS. GOSSIP IS A SIN WITHIN ITSELF. WHY NOT PREACH THE WORD OF GOD INSTEAD OF FINDING FAULT WITH SOMEONE WHO DOES. HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE YOU BROUGHT TO JESUS? HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE YOU TAUGHT TO HATE? JESUS COMMANDS US TO LOVE EACH OTHER. YOU ARE DEFAMING SOMEONE ELSE. ARE YOU CLEAN? ARE YOU PERFECT? DO YOU MAKE MISTAKES? STEP DOWN FROM YOUR PLATFORM AND SERVE GOD.
He should have had the character to repent properly. He's very proud and dishonest ("I see things", "I read a book a day", 'Someone is out to take my power'). It's more than a good man messing up. His problems were serious and he never publicly or privately repented properly to the people he wronged.
I gently encourage those in the comments who take offense to the more progressive lean in this episode to look beyond it for a moment and recognize that it's still objectively wrong to preach on-demand sex as a religious obligation. I ascribe to the complimentary theological model, like most of the people who were upset with the coverage in this episode, but I urge you all to look past politics for a moment and see that Driscoll's teachings would still be gravely wrong coming from any other political or theological view.
The pitfall here is sexual sin, and that is nothing new. It's very easy to for abuse, perversion, and shame to crop up in a system that is heirarchy-focused, and so the patriarchy is an easy target here. But we've been warned since the inception of the church that sexual sin would accompany false teachers. That's what's really going on here. Look beyond the political ideas explored in this episode and seek the moral heart of what's going on. Driscoll preached things that tickled certain ears, hypersexualizing scripture and reducing both men and women to a caricature of themselves. His system is not God's design.
Well said!
This isn't an episode that accomplishes what the makers intend for those of us who know the truth. We can be disgusted at the sexual themes of Driscoll, while also being disgusted at the agenda pushed by the creator.
May I ask did you actually listen to Mark Driscoll or did you take this pages History of Mark Driscoll because I've listened to Mark just before quite a while and that wasn't exactly what I took from his messages now remember when you have a vise that generally you have a problem with twisting what is there to make your side look better and unfortunately we both know that this is a very biased episode in this I'm not going to say that Mark didn't mess up we're all human we're all sinners say by grace I didn't get that from this message is personaly. Now not to say that I've listened to every message he's had because I haven't but his general air and what he taught I didn't get that
To that last question "is it worth the fruit?" I would call into question if it really is fruit or if it's just the grace of God coming in and shifting through the madness to save people. God can use anything to save and he will use fallen broken situations to show truth.
Absolutely. Most of the time, God is doing things despite our failings rather than us actually being useful. We're genuinely useful only as far as we're humble about our roles.
@@Window4503- Not sure that's true. We all have narcissism to deal with, pastors often being very guilty of this flaw, yet narcissists are often go-getters where others hem and haw and tend towards uselessness to some degree. As much as humility is vital to the Christian Journey, being "genuinely useful" can come with degrees of selfish pride. We are quite complex creatures, can be proud about our roles, and accomplish great things for God. ( Sounds like your first sentence, but we differ on your following statement. )
Stoking fears to consolidate power - yes! I might add also stoking fears to sell books and conference tickets.
Around 46:00 mark where other Christian leaders were willing to overlook some problems with Mark's teaching because he "checked certain doctrinal boxes" -- that's a really good point. And damn, when Sarah Bessey around 49:00 says that "women / people are needing to re-learn that God loves them..." Wow.
Potiphar's wife and the imbalance of power... thank you, CT. People in positions of power (like pastors) rarely talk about power dynamics.
Humans are obsessed with imposing hierarchy. But Jesus said the first will be last in His kingdom.
Hierarchy is simply a fact of human community, and can be either beneficial or destructive. The issue isn't whether Jesus has raised up men to lead the Church as he clearly has, but rather if those men are godly, humble servants, desiring to see the flock grow in love and grace.
@@mchristr
I don't think your drawing from the fullness of the Master's teaching - about the least being the greatest...
Mark wasn't a servant - especially as the years went on - he was all about Mark...
You did a great job presenting the situation of the women of Mars Hill. The description and analysis of a woman’s position and value transcend the facts and allow me to glimpse the despair they must have felt. Well done.
"Mainstream evangelical pastors like Andy Stanley" .... that didn't age well.
Maybe Driscoll needed someone to scream "How dare you?!" at him for being dishonest, proud, angry, and unrepentant.
Thank-you - you get it.
Literally appalled by what l heard from Driscoll regarding personally sexually explicit details. I am no prude but what he said was inappropriate and nauseating. It reveals that he has a perverted mind to reveal intimate details about his own sex life. I am sure his wife was embarrassed and humiliated, but of course, l am sure she wouldn’t be allowed to tell him so! I feel sorry for women who are brainwashed into thinking they have to do whatever they’re told, even if it violates their own conscience. Its just disgusting!
At any rate, this is the situation. The church as a whole, does not know how to actually treat women as equals in the light of scripture. We don’t know how to rightly divide the word of truth because our way of looking at some scriptures put women in the position of subservience to men with assigned roles and expectations and men (and some women) are determined to use those scriptures to continue to develop their cookie cutter idea of female believers.
So whereas men can choose their careers and fulfill their goals and dreams by making a living in whatever way they choose, be it a musician, a public speaker, an educator, a mathematician, preacher or an astronaut, a woman, regardless of her intelligence, level of education or personal desires is always automatically assigned the “role” of homemaker and mother. Women are told to sing to your children, teach your children, pour your life into your children- that is the primary female assignment according to pastors, husbands, and many others, including many other Christian women. So there’s no place for women to function outside of those limited expectations. If your an author, write Children’s books or something that supports the home and family, books on submission are acceptable and encouraged. But what if you’re an artist or you like to do woodworking or you’re great with technology? That would be frowned upon. And you might be a gifted teacher and even have a Master’s degree in Theology but you wouldn’t even be allowed to teach a Sunday School class in church. If you go outside the box and pursue a career, many people within the church will ostracize you.
So while the “woke” world willingly embraces women’s talents, abilities and giftings which are God given, the Church rejects the use of any of those to be used outside a small circle of possibilities.
At the same time, its being discovered more and more that the men who ride herd on their churches and have such rigid expectations of women are often the ones with leaders who are out of control with temper fits, are sexually perverse, having affairs or are abusive husbands, therefore having fearful, controlled wives, afraid to speak up about oppression and violence, or express a desire to do anything outside their “assigned” role, with many women living like victims with Stockholm syndrome.
So the ideologies of the patriarchy, misogyny and nationalist conservatism are associated with the church because it’s primarily the church people who hold most closely to those ways of running homes and government and those ideas come from the way scripture is taught and implemented in the church and the home. I am personally a patriot, a conservative, do not believe in abortion, and know there are only two genders. There are many women like me who hold a lot of these beliefs but don’t hold with being squished into roles that just don’t fit all of us.
Many men love control because its men who have that innate desire to control religions, countries, governments, churches, families and individuals. It’s taught that all the power struggle problems arise from women wanting control their husbands and always trying to take control from men, but that’s another lie. Women simply want to be respected just like men do and women, by and large, are not respected at all by most men.
For those men who are the exception, good for you, but you are the exception and not the rule.
Feminism came into being because for centuries women had no choices. They couldn’t own property. They couldn’t vote. They couldn’t hold a job or get a bank loan. Most had no choices about who they could marry or even if they wanted to marry. Most were expected to marry a person their father approved of and spend their lives keeping house and raising kids, as many as their bodies could bring forth before cratering. They were expected to not deny their husbands physically and to obey them “in everything.”
Well, all l can say is that sounds terrible. I was married for 34 years and we had some hard times and difficulties but l had equal say in everything. l was not oppressed and never looked on my husband to be minded like l was a child.
Something is terribly wrong with this picture and the way women are treated by the church. Many Christian women are treated almost as bad as Muslim women, and that’s saying something because their lives are awful.
The fact is that on average a woman or girl is killed by a man every 9 minutes of every day of every year, and that’s in so-called developed countries where records are actually kept. It’s probably way worse in communist and Muslim countries.
Women make up over half of the body of Christ, yet we continue to be treated as subordinates. Both my grandmothers were abused and had horrible lives, the same with my mom. In my 65 years, about 60% of all the women lve known personally and worked with have been physically and-or psychologically abused and a lot of the men involved sat on church benches and professed to be followers of Christ.
I know some Christian women who are treated very well and are happy as mom’s and homemakers and lm very happy for them and thankful, but the ones who truly are treated well by their husbands behind closed doors are way less than Christians would like to think.
What a creep. Hard to believe how vulnerable people are.
I have enjoyed listening to the first few episodes but this is the first one that I think the people at CT let their politics and beliefs influence the content instead of telling this as a narrative story. I like the fact that in the other episodes, they let other people tell their interactions with Mark and other members of the church. Let’s stick to what the Bible says about men and women would be my charge to us believers.
Remember God is holy and won’t be mocked. Sin is so devastating that it required the sacrifice of the son of God. You should be able to talk about anything and keep it biblical understanding that some of us have different levels of faith and understanding at different times in our lives.
100%
A most excellent audio Documentary!
Why does Christianity Today not use Bible verses to back their views?
What is "their views"?
As a man with two friends who endured abusive husbands, forgive me if I do not count Driscoll's threats on batterers among his wrongs!
So vengeance is mine…very godly
Men should protect women. Stopping or threating evil isn't vengeance. @@Joey-b8w
@@Joey-b8w who said anything about it being vengeance? Are you saying that you wouldn’t intervene physically if you witnessed a man beating a woman out of concern that you’re getting revenge towards that man? Your concern should be for the physical well being of the woman.
I understand being openness about sex and sexuality in the church but there is a really no need to detail these things so much. And the way that he says it's for God's "daughters to do and his sons to enjoy." What about male stripping? Is that okay? Isn't sex supposed to be about loving each other and the ultimate expression of love?
Again the woman in the situation is just a tool it's just to be there. It's the kind of thinking that goes behind female circumcisions. This kind of thinking says that a woman does not deserve to enjoy even though God clearly created women this way to enjoy it.
Mark is a misogynist in sheep’s clothing
Good challenges back. It's a blindspot often with Conservatives / Traditionalists who re-stress the man being THE head of the household, which translates to serving his sexual needs. Why? To them it's obvious that HE has the high sex drive, must be attended to, and the woman finds all of her pleasure in doing so against her wants, desires, needs. If that ain't selfish of men, then I don't know what is. And what if the woman's sex drive is higher than her man's?! LoL.
I started watching this series because I was critical of Driscoll of how everything ended there at Mars Hill, how he brought in Warren, and wanted to know more about the story. 5 episodes in, listening to the liberal slanted narration and reading the weak comments about “toxic masculinity” I realize just how hard feminism has taken over and destroyed the modern church and family. I have much more respect for Driscoll now. He pushes back on this crap. I may go check him out in Phoenix!
At best, Mark Driscoll didn't always practice what he preached. Yes there are men in the church who should be rebuked for failing to lead their homes. However, that is not an excuse for him to act toxic himself.
Great topic, & talk‼️
It's interesting that CT seems to take the toxic culture of Driscoll and Mars Hill and lump it together with general conservatism / patriotism in a perjorative way (earlier in this episode). The remainder of the episode is a good skewering of the Mars Hill culture.
Conservatives hate women tho
The toxic culture of Driscoll permeate ALL of Christianity.
Yah; very clumsy smearing in an otherwise even handed series.
Pearl clutching and from progressive left leaning, lgbtq+ social justice warriors rings hollow. The much earned criticism needs to come from a scriptural basis not worldly apostate theologians/academics using a 2020s pc measure.
3 replies missing here. What a contemptuous podcast!! Hypocracy just reeks here. Talk about gas lighting. Pharisees comes to mind. I know little about Mark Driscoll but my mother taught me that if you can’t say something nice don’t say anything at all. If you want an example of gas lighting well I can say whatever I like because I’m cool and you can’t because you’re not cool. Teenagers world.He needs boundaries and a whole lot of Ritilin.
CT should have been around 60 years ago when the preachers screamed brimstone and fire if you dared go to a movie or have short hair or wear makeup you could be up for excommunication.Next thing you knew they were doing a lot of visiting with widows. how the pendulum swings.
Mark sounds hysterical,out of control and seems to shoot from the lips, but you guys are even more pompous. OK Mark has ADHD that much is very very obvious. Motormouth,energetic,hyperactive,impulsive,loose canon. TAKE HIM TO SEE DR. DANIEL AMEN who has clinics in several American cities,including Seattle. He has podcasts on
RUclips and just google him.
HE HAS A MEDICAL PROBLEM,,,,,,,,,,,DONT CRUCIFY! HELP HIM.‼️🇨🇦
Why in the world would you listen to this Sara Johnston??? Who is she?? A little demon that Satan has recruited to tear down others?
Only listening to the first few minutes but I'm really getting a lot of "great replacement theory/manifest destiny" vibes from Mark's teaching.
Emotionally healthy women and emotionally healthy men see through Driscoll's BS.
That would help. The ability to think critically would go a long way, too. I wonder what the average level of education was within this group. I mean the sort that actually "educes" human intelligence rather than just citizen factories or religious training.
@@vicj2141 No the original comment hit the nail on the head , the reason people get involved in cults, highly controlling religious, environments and/or fundamentalism is for an emotional need. it has nothing to do with critical thinking, though i wish it did.Very highly educated people including doctors, engineers etc get involved in cults and controlling environments all the time, because it's not about thinking with your brain it's about an emotional need that the cult meets at that time.
I guess God didn’t tell Solomon about a woman’s place: Proverbs 31: 10-31. Or Deborah who was an Israelite Judge.
@@vicj2141 A lot of them were very young, innocent, gullible - just like most people who get into religion - if they were not so raise - and, thus, easily taken advantage of and indoctrinated by those who they think "really know God", etc.
Let’s not look over the fact that there were men in the complementarian camp who had and were calling out Mark Driscoll for years, such as John MacArthur and Justin Peters to name just two.
Ok this has been interesting so far but if i hear that lady say conservative evangelicals one more time...
Jeez this got political conpared to the others
What's wrong with her saying conservative evangelicals?
Andy Stanley is not mainstream or well respected.
You have spoken 100% truth. Thank you.
At least in everything I heard - in the in the general sense I have - Mark was all about the men being sexually fulfilled - at no point did I hear - nor have generally understood in any significant way - that there was a HUGE focus on women being sexually fulfilled - or related...
I heard focus on men receiving oral sex - something not all women enjoy doing - I did NOT hear about men GIVING oral sex - which if done reasonably correct is something MOST women really enjoy and appreciate (and not a few men in giving it...).
If anybody knows that Mark's actually emphasis was 50/50, I would appreciate hearing that side....
living my whole life going to many different churches (Navy), if I heard the pastor yelling at the congregation like that, I’d have left. Mark taught things that are important but it’s the Mark show. Everything about church should point to Christ and Christ alone.
Christianity Today couldn’t and wouldn’t miss the opportunity to inflect what CT does.
Inflect? That means to change a word or change your voice. Did you mean inflict? What are you trying to say?
❤ excellent work
When speaking in Scotland, Mark Driscoll said that oral sex was biblical and that women should proform oral sex on there husbands, but does it work both ways? Should men proform oral sex on their wives? If not, this is a form of toxic masculinity or masagony.
Yes. Mars and Mark was not ashamed to break down Songs of Solomon and "mutual" oral. It's one of many Biblically endorsed pleasure practices within the confines of a loving marriage.
I cannot stand this man. He is the opposite of what a pastor should be and an example of the worst kind of husband, father, person that claims to be a Christian. I'm physically ill listening to this!
It’s sad how unBiblical Christianity Today shows themselves to be here.
I’m sorry that the truth scares you
Very insightful
All you have to do to become aware of Christianity today's hard leaning progressive stance is to listen to this episode. The ideals which they tacitly support and the ideals on which they ever so casually laugh at and place blame tell you everything you need to know. I'm pushing through this entire series but my already low opinion of CT just decreases and decreases. Maybe our liberal brothers and sisters need to spend some time reflecting inwards rather than always jumping to the politics of white nationalism, heteronormativity, and the "evils" of the nuclear family
@@Spacecadet_-mo6ew progressive left is close enough but sure... We can go with satanic if that feeds your mock gullet sufficiently
But Mars Hill fell for following conservatives values: loving power instead of practicing empathy.
I noticed it very strong in this episode. I was starting to think this whole 11 part podcast was a little unChrist like, I don't think I'll listen to anymore. Praying for everyone this podcast may have swayed from the Lord.
@@idahoplantlady Trump and macho pastors killed christianity not christianity today or other real christians.
Your comment gives me hope. This is a podcast dangerously sympathetic to progressive “Christianity” instead of actual Christianity.
If I listened to this and didn't know it was from CT, I would have mistakenly assumed it was presented by NPR. It has a healthy dose of condemning toxic masculinity as explained by a multitude of gender studies experts. Most of this episode was dedicated to beating up traditional values, marriage, and marriage roles. The episode was far more ideologically driven than previous ones. Many of Mark Driscoll's sermons were creepy enough as they were, the woke preaching was unnecessary.
you guys don't know the hell some women have gone through after the church fell a part if you want to become men and deal with sexuality. You need to start with behavior first. You have no idea the hell some women have gone through
Mark made mistakes but gender roles was NOT one of them... this page is sad. Almost a mockery how they claim they are a Christian page LOL
100%, though I was getting very homo vibes from the beginning
Just because it’s ideological doesn’t make it incorrect. Just because something might be on npr doesn’t make it incorrect either. Do you believe in man made climate change yet?
@@teamblair466The climate of the earth has always changed and gone though cycles. Im not saying man has no effect on it but climate change is not the "sky us falling" crisis that global elites are trying to sell. They see us as vermin dirtying up their planet bc they think their money is going to somehow make them immortal. The world will end when God is good and ready for it to and all the recycling and EV's in the world is not going to change that. Furthermore, the solution is certainly not "let's put a bunch of restrictions on ppl and make energy unaffordable to those in poverty or on the edge of it" bc those ppl will end up dead. When poor ppl have to chose between food and heating thier home ppl die. Which is exactly what the elite architects of the climate change lie want. I bet you are a good, kind and compassionate person but don't let liars take advantage of your compassion. I was a die hard liberal most of my life bc I thought I was standing up for the marginalized and disaffected in our society but then I learned the truth. Don't throw your lot in with ppl who fly private jets around the world and tell us we can't drive cars and we should eat bugs. The supposed climate crisis drum has been beating for as long as I can remember and if the climate warriors were right we should already be dead and the Earth should've been in flames and unlivable since ten years ago. If you want to know the truth of how to make the world a better place then open the Bible and follow the instructions of Jesus and the Apostles bc that's where the unchanging objective truth really resides. God bless you. I pray you'll take my words into consideration and know that they truly come from a place of love.
How daaaaarreeee you !
with how 'out in the open' these characterizations are it almost makes me wonder how credible the testimony is. I'll have to look into Driscoll to see the other side of the story
It's the same problem as the IBLP (Institute of Biblical Living Principles)- See Shiny Happy People documentary, and every other cultic teachings. Creating fence laws from scriptures taken out of context to control your own and other's morality. But in this instance, the burden to control is put on the wife. Wives do this to control your husband's sexual urges or desires for porn. Obedience to fence laws doesn't work and isn't Biblical! Jesus broke fence laws, but He obeyed every single law of God. Fence laws cut out the conviction of the Holy Spirit and submission to God. It's not about humility and honoring God but pride in being self-righteous and controlling others behavior to benefit yourself. Judgment day on these Pastors will be terrifying! See James 1:3, Matthew 18:6-7, Ezekiel 34:7-8,10.
This video is a good example of the Jezebel Spirit. A pastor criticized for true biblical teaching that a woman’s place is in the home caring for children because it dis-empowers women? Sounds like something a Jezebel would say. I was raised by a stay-at-home mom & have felt like such a failure because I’ve had to work outside the home as a divorced single-parent. Unable to give my all or my best to my family, education or my career, while under constant high stress, paying bills by ’shut off notice'. My heart breaks for young mothers leaving their infants @ 6-12 weeks with a caregiver to return to work. At least my kids were in grade school before I had to return to work. In today’s world it’s almost impossible for a large family to buy a home on only one income so we sacrifice our children to Moloch, hand them over to others to care for and put them in “free” government indoctrination centers so we can "keep up with the Jones’”. That’s where Jezebel's “empowering women” got us.
Misogynist here 👆
The Jezebel "spirit" is not a biblical concept. Where in the Bible does it say Jezebel a SPIRIT? Nowhere. Are there women who act like Jezebel? Uncertainly. But that's because of the human sinful nature, not because they're possessed or controlled by an entity that the Bible never mentions.
Funny, though, since there is no such thing as a Jezebel spirit. That’s completely made up.
Is advising church wives to buy a stripper pole and dance naked for their husbands - this after a lifetime of being sexually shamed and told their only value is remaining a virgin - the way to true empowerment? Women struggle to balance family and work in significant part due to a lack of spousal and societal support.
@@mdlmomma9167 remaining a virgin until marriage is definitely biblical, empowering, and not shaming, it’s called the virtue of chastity. It's honoring & cherishing yourself, your body, your sexuality as the temple of the Holy Spirit. If you possessed a priceless, exquisite, rare jewel, painting, or even automobile would you protect it and not just give it away to the first man that coveted it? Read Song of Solomon if you want to better understand how God cherishes you.
No fan of Driscoll but these Hyper progressive liberal women giving their 2 cents is hard to listen
To
No, the question we should ask is, “Is it true”?
You guys realize this isnt a church, it's a cult... right? Cults have been studied for years and years, this "church" fits the criteria.
I disagree. It's a Christian Church with problems. A cult is more like a heresy or Christian spinoff that abandons the Nicene Creed or essential doctrines (e.g. JW, LDS), or (stronger version) a charismatic leader who is blantantly teaching nonsense to get power, money, and sex (e.g. organizations that have their members labour for the leader, give the leader huge amounts of money or where women sleep w the leader or he marries many of the women). MH/Driscoll is not bad or errant enough to be a cult; as far as I can see, they were vanilla Baptist Christians with a bad leader and the follies of modern American culture.
I disagree with Kristine’s take on men.
As a woman who loves God more than liberal and progressive ideals...
This episode is woke and pathetic.
I love the overall series but why is Christianity today so freaking liberal ?
What happened to biblical Christianity ?
When Mark is screaming in that clip "how dare you", it sounds like an abuser to me.
He was yelling at abusers tho
You sound like the problem with the modern church and society.
@Corporate Overlord sounds like conjecture tbh
Excuse my language, but that is some disturbing shit going on. Real men from the world of construction would have called Mark out, even the ones that are disturbed and unregenerated. I hope Mark gets some help.
I knew of mark but didn’t really listen much. There is NO question that men and women have different roles and the beast system we live in is trying desperately to undermine Gods created order. That in and of itself should be all a Christian needs to know in order to take a side. If God wanted men and women to be the same He would have made us the same, but CLEARLY we are not; biologically, mentally….ect.
The beast system we live in? That's a bit dramatic and superstitious.
I'm familiar with the more conservative as well as progressive strains of theology reflected in this video. Can't say I agree completely with either side portrayed here. Shocking.
Would a hierarchy of the man being the leader WHILE being partners in the home work rather well? After many, many years of pondering, prayer and observation, of conservative to progressive couples, it seems like an obvious "Yes". For most couples. Maybe not all, to the more liberal take. One couple's Trad-Con style actually might not work well for another couple. But what also doesn't work? Progressives to dog the actually well-oiled machine of conservative marriages.
RE: Sex. This episode brought me mixed feelings. On the one hand Driscoll was being far more open and freeing ( like Liberals would be about sex, perhaps ) regarding oral sex, how to dress, stripping for one's husband. These are ironically rather progressive, to those who would think he's merely being a "porn-minded" archaic version of a sexist, objectifying man. Really? He's bringing the honest sexuality of many men to women and telling them both: You're married, don't go outside to an actual strip club, how about bringing it home and enjoy it there!? Sounds amazingly freeing in sexuality. For Progressives to sit there and reduce the heart of that message to being "the porn mind-set" is either lazy, sexist, possibly prudish, or maybe just narrow-minded and self-centered.
Why? Because it smacks of projecting their "stuff" onto him RATHER than CELEBRATING the Freedom and Pleasure and Love this could bring marriages. If YOU don't like oral sex, whether you're a woman OR a man, then fine, negotiate how you want it. My guess is the vast majority of men do. But my guess is that women ALSO love it. Which leads me to...
Not done yet. As to the examples only being about what a woman can do for a man DOES diminish marital sexuality down to: Woman, serve thee thy man. Blecch. Even in much of actual porn ( videos ) the man is absolutely serving the woman, giving oral sex, contrary to the gross assumption made in this video that porn is only about men and how they "objectify" women. Wrong. Do more research, or at least be humble as to your ignorance. And please, please be open to the probability that most women won't admit to their secret fantasies, sexual kinks, etc., because of the old expectation to be a princess and a lady. As if women aren't into Erotica or "animalistic" sex as one woman criticized in this episode. Sex is always to be genteel, always romantic, always staring into each other's eyes, no experimentation, no "having sex" instead of "making love"? In this respect both Driscoll AND the progressive commentators in this episode missed the mark, respectively.
We can learn from each other. One camp's idea of sexual freedom is another camp's shame. One woman's turn-on is another woman's degradation. THAT is how VARIED our sexuality can be. And it can be fine, good, freeing, amazing, within their own particular contexts. We can actually disagree in these matters and still love God, be of one Unity in Spirit, in Love, Truth and Grace.
P.S. - On the matter of a wife's "duty" to have sex with their husband every day? Well, doesn't it depend on whether they negotiated for that, she agree, and she isn't fulfilling that? Or maybe they didn't agree to that and she has a point in pushing back on it as a now demand. Valid. Context always matters. Vice versa, BTW. If the man is not fulfilling his end of the agreement, fair to challenge him squarely on that. We shouldn't lie, break those agreements, but why can't we re-negotiate the agreement later? This hard-line rule ( out of his @ss, it sounds like ) to have sex with one's husband every day smacks of sexism, NOT the kind of Christian loving relationship where both are of equal value, dignity and respect.
The point is-or at least should be-what is instructed in the Bible?
If it isn’t there, dont use it to support what you want it to say.
If this channel is Christian, then the subreddit “Christianity” is Saint Paul.
If Jesus came today, CT would make a podcast calling him homophobic and toxic
These commentators are missing the messages from the Bible on marriage. You aren’t “partners” with your wife. You’re one. That means you’re different parts of the body with different roles. This is one of the things Mark gets right. He definitely got things wrong and you all get this topic way wrong.
MD was a tyrannical leader who crossed the line in so many ways. Let's get that out of the way first. With that said, I found it an amazing contrast to juxtapose the first few episodes detailing MD's message to men vs this episode detailing MD's message to women.
MD (esp in Episodes 3 and 4) railed on the men for failing to live Biblically defined masculine lives. The focus was on the style of messaging, the homophobic rants, the use of the William Wallace 2 account, and other forms of brow beating. Little was said of the actual content of the message, as it's pretty darn Biblical to demand men step up as men and lead, pray, protect, and serve their wives and household -- put down the porn, put down the beer, put down the video games, and actually plug into your wife and family!!! But the way he delivered this message crossed from tough love to inappropriate many times.
In this episode, however, the toxicity was the content itself, not just the delivery. MD spoke about Song of Solomon as instructive, not just an interesting love story ... one that really illustrates how marital desire to please one another ought to work. He backed this with Corinthians and other passages that demands sex be a foundational part of a marriage and how withholding this sex does lead to the temptation that Paul (Holy Spirit, really) wrote about. MD again crossed the lines with profanity and awful delivery, but this episode focused a lot on the toxicity of the underlying message more than the profane/inappropriate manner in which it was delivered.
When men are challenged to live masculine lives as defined by the Bible, the content is OK but the delivery is terrible. When women are challenged to live feminine lives as defined by the Bible, the delivery is offensive but the content is the real trauma. CT really demonstrates the influence of culture here.
We're generally OK calling out men ... but don't dare tell a woman what to do. That's traumatic, "spiritual abuse," and so on. So many of the women talked about the heavy burden that placed on them (a command to be sexually active with their husbands) and how that was unfair and unhealthy. OK, how is that any different than the heavy burden placed on the men?
That's why sanctification is a lifelong process -- the direction given in the Bible is really hard to do and is counter-culture ... and counter to our own self-interested desires. Being told to be submissive to God and be submissive to your husband is about the most toxic thing a person can tell a woman in today's post modern culture ... but it is very much Biblical. Rail all you want on MD's delivery, as it is most certainly profane, offensive, and inappropriate. But, the doctrine that speaks to women's responsibility to meet their husbands' sexual needs is pretty solid, despite how CT wants to characterize it here. If I tell a person, "Eat your vegetable because they're healthy, you rotten, f--ing, son of a b---h!" I'm clearly unhinged, abusive, and wildly inappropriate. You'd do well to walk away from me. I'm a jerk. But, that doesn't also mean that eating your vegetables is unhealthy.
It’s interesting that you think MD telling women to provide oral sex and strip for their husbands is Biblical femininity. I dont see this listed in Proverbs 31. I do see the NT tell BOTH husbands and wives not to deprive each other except for a time when mutually agreed upon.
Song of Solomon is a descriptive book-not prescriptive. MD interpretation and exposition of the book from the pulpit is disgusting and grotesque.
An authoritative marriage model was not advanced by Jesus; to the contrary: He modelled servant leadership; by calling and uplifting His followers to be acting as His friends. Fittingly husbands and wives should submit to one another - in reverance to Christ.
Very much needed though, for women to be called back into their homes, and to be honoured and respected for fulfilling their calling as wives and mothers there. The lie that women are supposedly empowered by being enabled to compete with men outside their homes, should be laid bare. So very harmful for children to be robbed from a mother's care, and a safe home environment; this while routinely, wilfully exposed by their parents to stranger danger. Truth is that most modern men are demanding this from their wives, with many literally being forced to not work at their own homes; meaning that women are ending up exhausted, burned out, and in reality not accomplishing much in any role. The thief comes to steal, kill, and destroy...
Sadly it seems MD's failures, and sinful conduct in some areas are now serving as justification to advance the feminist agenda?
Some of the key points that needed to be addressed were addressed. Mark and his church, along with many others in our culture, have pushed the narrative that sex is for men to enjoy and women to give. The Bible has mentioned over and over again that sex is for husband and wife to both enjoy inside of marriage. The gender roles being propagated by Mark and other men in society today have taken these Bible passages and run with them to an extreme. That being said, Christianity Today along with many of the sources used to refute Mark hold to clearly anti-biblical beliefs and push ideas that are contrary to biblical principles. Both sides have their faults and I’m tired of there being no platforms in the middle ground.
GOD IS THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN PASS JUDGEMENT ON ANOTHER. THE LORD REBUKES SATAN IN ALL FORMS. GOSSIP IS A SIN WITHIN ITSELF. WHY NOT PREACH THE WORD OF GOD INSTEAD OF FINDING FAULT WITH SOMEONE WHO DOES. HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE YOU BROUGHT TO JESUS? HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE YOU TAUGHT TO HATE? JESUS COMMANDS US TO LOVE EACH OTHER. YOU ARE DEFAMING SOMEONE ELSE. ARE YOU CLEAN? ARE YOU PERFECT? DO YOU MAKE MISTAKES? STEP DOWN FROM YOUR PLATFORM AND SERVE GOD.
So criminals shouldn't be jailed?
LOL a Driscoll minion chimes in
If young men listened to mark rather then Andrew Tate, our society would be way better
Parts of his message were good, but overall he is not humble or otherwise good enough to be a spiritual leader.
How about neither
@@brackishnz💯
Jellyfish Christian’s shoveling dirt on the grave of an honest and human attempt to follow Christ.
Mark is evil. You clearly haven’t heard this whole series. Way to stand with abusers.
He should have had the character to repent properly.
He's very proud and dishonest ("I see things", "I read a book a day", 'Someone is out to take my power').
It's more than a good man messing up. His problems were serious and he never publicly or privately repented properly to the people he wronged.
This is a highly recommended anthropological study of the primitive peoples of America who believe in the supernatural.
Best comment on here. 💯 agree.
😂
If young men listened to mark rather then Andrew Tate, our society would be way better
He actually has points that are similar to these redpill men . He’s a misogynist