Some updates: Thanks to Patron Daniel, he pointed out that the DIN-10 connector might be using the Sega Saturn pinout. (I was unaware the Saturn used a Mini DIN 10) I compared the physical pinout on this console with the Sega Saturn and it's a perfect match.! gamesx.com/grafx/satpin.jpg The only potential issue is the RGBS cables you can buy are likely wired with the "Sync" being wired to the Composite video pin. This will work fine on SCART displays and probably the Sony PVM, but for monitors like the Commodore 1084 this will not work properly when using the DE9 input. So I am probably going to make a cable.... Also some info on the PPU composite strangeness from viewer @chepossofare: "The signal from PPU is perfectly normal: There are 5 EXTs pins on the PPU that, when configured, outputs indexes for the palette color. Those are used by the FPGA to understand the pixel color. EXT0-3 are on the PPU but EXT4 is multiplexed on the composite pin21, so you are basically seeing composite video + bit for EXT4." So it turns out this is 100% normal and is just how the NESRGB and this implementation of RGB for the NES works. I have also figured out how to get custom color palettes, so I will make an update video on the second channel once I get my DIN-10 cable (to show off RGB) and I'll discuss how the custom palettes work. In that video I will also test the Rev E PPU on a real NES to see if that sparkle problem carries over to real hardware.
You either watch my viewing history, Or RUclips uses my history to give video suggestions. This is not the first time I spent a day looking up a topic, (Nentendo) And the next day one I see a new video about the subject.
@@JohnWojt The chip usually isn't the problem. It's usually that they cheap out on the motherboards. The chip itself would likely be 100% compatible if not for that. (they don't use all of the cartridge slot connections a lot of the time, etc.)
@@maxxdahl6062 NES-on-a-chip clones don't have much of a mainboard... they typically have one board with the so called NOAC chip.. a cartridge slot and some supporting power electronics and a second board with the that does the video interfacing (especially to convert to hdmi) they typically epoxy the chip... Intellectual property concerns amongst Chinese chip makers??... they suffer from video glitching, sound and compatibility issues.
NTSC: Approximated color palette from an original NTSC console. PC-10 = Derived from sampling Nintendo PlayChoice 10 Arcade’s RGB color palette (same PPU used in Sharp Famicom Titler?). FCEUX: A popular emulator’s digital RGB color palette.
With the full motherboards on aliexpress, the output jack is actually a Sega Saturn jack! Its becoming semi standard to use as a fully featured jack, as the Sega Saturn outputs composite, s-video, and rgb, so thats how you would get s-video, just like rgb. However, I don't know of any good quality saturn s-video cables, ive only had cheap ones that are pretty sucky, so i suggest anyone make their own if you're able and can't find a good quality one out there. I might've gotten ahead of myself, sent this while i was watching hah, but my word of warning for Saturn s-video cables still stands Also! The precise issue with a lot of the UMG made chips--which i believe were originally reverse engineered and produced by Micro Genius--is that the two bits that define there duty cycle width of the pulse channels (00 for 12.5%, 01 for 25%, 10 for 50% square, 11 for 75% which sounds the same as 25%) are read wrong which reverses the order of each duty cycle setting, so Mario which mostly use 50% for the music ans 12.5% for sound effects, which is what makes games sound so different! Also also.. spare famicom boards, which very commonly have the E varient chips (Ive never seen an NES with Es instead of Gs, are themselves pretty abundant and can cheapy be bought from Japan, so that must be how they got legit chips in this system! With the weird different signals you saw with the original PPU video signal and the FPGA video signal, i believe that is totally normal output when the NESRGB is hijacking the PPU. there was a pin on it called PPUV, and when the FPGA is active, the output is usually solid white with some of the sprites being all gray, Thats most likely what you were seeing, with the small spikes likely being the sprites on screen. (Great choice with 8BIT Music Power ;) )
there were two main reasons as to why the international cartridges were bigger than the japanese ones. the first is that nintendo wanted the console to feel more like a professional piece of equipment more than a toy, so they made the console and carts feel similar to a VCR and VHS tape. second, the bigger cartridges appealed to stores as it made them more difficult to steal them by hiding them in or under clothing.
8 years ago I got my NES rgb-modded and it cost me between 200$ and 300$ CAD. This "clone" having rgb and s-video is an absolute steal! And will give better nes video to many people.
I'm not a console kid but I'm glad I stayed for the whole video. Hardware hacking, oscilloscope probing, esoteric video signals discussion... great video!!
Side story back then, in Hong Kong official got same grey machine as in USA, however almost 99% of people directly buy "parallel import" version of Japanese "red & white" machine since both the unofficial support and choice of games are more (grey machine did have few games), so Hong Kong children play the same game as Japanese with all kind of weird non-kanji characters without knowing Japanese at all.
@1:03:27, marginal may not be an issue with a bad or marginal PPU. The timing of the data pins with reference to the clock may just me a little slower or faster. This occasionally happens when designing an MCU/FPGA project when you interface to tap signals from an existing third party device where you do not have access to all the variants of components or the original intended design specifications for proper pin timing ranges to ensure 0 data errors under all circumstances.
Ince the NES does not output RGB signals itself, the actual color rendition of an NTSC TV is going to vary from set to set. The first RGB mods for the NES were using the PPU from the PC10 arcade hardware which indeed DOES output RGB for a standard arcade monitor. This has a palette that makes it look very different to your typical NTSC TV but it worked. As the newer RGB mods kept being released, they didn't require the PPU from the rare PC10 arcade boards but they would still use the pallette from them while others would use a palette intended to mimic a typical NTSC TV. Of course, as time went on there would be discussion on what is the 'correct' way to display fc/nes video over RGB when no home console version of the hardware generated RGB in order to take an acceptable palette from. Nowadays, the mods for any output besides composite I have ever seen always allow you to switch between the palettes used. FCEUX just happens to be one of the most popular NES emulators and it's the palette it uses on PC hardware, which was obviously RGB. I would be willing to bet the SD card has standard NES emulator palette files on it and you might be able to download more or alternates and pop em on there. I have seen this many times before. I have even seen internal SD cards on some clone systems that are only there to hold the palette files and they only have one on them, must have been the cheapest and easiest way to handle it in whatever overseas manufacturing plant they were made in. Anyways, being able to change the palette on the system wile connected via composite implies that it isn't routing the PPU video directly to the jacks like the fc/nes but is instead using something like a video encoder that also handles the composite as well as the RGB/SVID etc. I just so happened to own a retail buy/sell/trade video game store and fc/nes clones from around the world were one of my personal obsessions, which is why I know this stuff. :D Anyways, I love your videos! After finishing the video. Lol, then he proceeds to guess half of it. hehe
Trivia on the short cables (which also plagues the Super Famicom, making it very easy to distinguish between japanese, US and european versions): the reason they are so short is because, instead of treating the console like a TV add-on (like a VCR), they treated it more like a computer, so it was supposed to be placed away from the TV and near the players. That also explains why the official RF cable and power adapter are so long.
To be fair, it was the same here, years ago. My first Colecovision and the Intellivision had about 15' of RF cable and the systems had short controller cables.
@@AtariBorn It was the front-loader design (as well as the fact they marketed it as an "entertainment system") what contributed to the change in placement. The shape also contributed to some people using it as a table replacement, which led to some unfortunate accidents. It took some more time before the japanese consumer started placing the console closer to the TV and further from the player (and I believe only with some consoles)..
You can even find those cartridge adapters inside some early 5 screw NES cartridges the one most people point to is Gyromite, but they have been in some early excite bikes, and the way you can 100% guarantee to get one though it will be a little bit more expensive is to get yourself a copy of stack-up because 100% of copies of stack up have the Japanese ROM board connected through an official Nintendo adapter
Getting the NES in 1986 was pretty early. The system came out in North America on October 18, 1985. I managed to snag an HDMI modded NES for around $300 a couple years ago. It would be awesome if someone was able to come out with a new version of that.
I almost ventured into the SCART cable/switching fiasco. Luckily, RetroRGB started making awesome component cables for everything. No NTSC-J cables to deal with and no sync on whatever issues. If only the industry embraced YPbPr, at least.
Before the NESRGB the only way to get RGB was to use an RP2C03B from a Playchoice-10 or certain Vs. boards and modify the main PCB to grab the RGB output. And that would only work on an NTSC console.
That's because they are (at least believed to be) based on NTSC PPUs. I'm glad other solutions, like the NESRGB, exist since I hate to think about the PlayChoice-10 and VS. System boards that were sacrificed for RGB. Though, with the VS. System games were sold (also?) as individual chip sets.
@emmettturner9452 The base palettes don't look too different (at least on the NESDev wiki). It might be because the emphasis bit works differently on the 2C02 vs. 2C03. The former will darken the color while the latter will set it to full brightness. Thus, it would cause a more striking difference in a game's colors.
@@douro20 it’s a lot closer than most Vs System games where making them different was a form of copy protection but the difference is striking when cycling through on devices like NESRGB, Framemeister XRGB Mini, etc
Adrian spent hours and hours testing the games on this device. What dedication, what great effort this man goes thru to make content for us ! (surely he wasn't playing just for the fun of it)
Btw the signal from PPU is perfectly normal: there are 5 EXTs pins on the PPU that, when configured, outputs indexes for the palette color. Those are used by the fpga to understand the pixel color. EXT0-3 are on the PPU, EXT4 is multiplexed on the composite out on pin21, so you are basically seeing composite video + bit for EXT4.
Awesome, thanks for the explanation. So this method renders the original composite output inoperative (when using an add-on board) or I suppose it injects a new composite signal into Pin 21 for the on board composite output?
@@adriansdigitalbasement Yep the mod does not pass through the composite output from the PPU to the output jack. The composite signal coming from the jack is recreated by the mod's electronics.
I should note that later Famicom revisions had both NES controller ports and composite out. The first is called the Twin Famicom, which is by Sharp and and was a combo of the NES and floppy drive, and the latter is called the AV Famicom, which is basically the Japanese version of the top loader, same as the American one with the differences being cart slot and socket for the Japanese zapper.
i've been playtesting my Lava RSC (white with pink❤) for about a week now, and i'm thoroughly impressed. the shell feels high quality, on par with the original, and the image quality is crazy good, even composite on my CRT is pixelperfect. i have owned Twins, Titlers, and RGB modded dozens of AV Famicoms myself back in the day, and honestly, the RSC beats them all hands down, in picture quality, features, and ease of use/versatility. i predict these will sell out quickly, and/or go up in price, so get one while they last. white and pink is already sold out atm.
I had NO idea that the NES zapper could sync to scanlines. I thought it just looked for the bright square in Duck Hunt. Were there any real games that took advantage of this?
Something I noticed about the NES color palette, is it only appears muted (especially red) on regular TV's, but on Sony's red was actually vibrant, and on SMB1 the sky was actually blue (vs a purple hue we usually know it as). Emulators ironically have a Sony CX palette which emulates that very palette, and I'm not entirely sure which palette is correct. In very early photos of when SMB was being developed, Nintendo was using Trinitrons, but later they had generic TV's by the time SMB3 was being worked on. So perhaps the "intended" palette depends on the game and what TV/monitor Nintendo was using when developing said games. For poor sound on most clones, from what I've gathered, the NES on a chip had the pulse wave duty cycles reversed which is where the sound change happened. But I'm not 100% on that.
I think Nintendo made the nes cartridges that big because they wanted to make the nes fit in with other av gear of the time, and they wanted it to feel less like a toy and more like a serious piece of av equipment, to separate it from the negative look on consoles at the time, right after the market crash of ‘83, although idk because I wasn’t there. I wasn’t even born yet.
1:05:12 such noisy pixels used to be visible on my modded GameGear too. Issue was that the pixel clock of the console was wonky. The LCD mod I was using luckily had a local pixel clock as well that could be used and it fixed the issue. Question is where does the pixel clock come from on the NES? Probably internal to the PPU?
As others have mentioned, it does look like it's a Saturn Jack: 10-pin mini DIN with Y and C signals. Of course, it could also be entirely custom pinout. That'd be a bit nuts when Saturn cables already exist. But it could. Interesting video though!
The reason the US NES was changed to look like it does was to make it look more like a VCR and less like a gaming console as they were afraid the crash of '83 had turned the buying public off of things that resembled consoles like the 2600.
NESRGB can use the SNES and N64 type multi-AV output for RGB and S-Video cables. It does require cutting a hole in the back of the case, but it looks pretty stock and matches other official Nintendo connectors and it uses the official NES SCART or JP15 or S-Video connectors for the AV connectors.
Just a thought re: the palettes. Maybe they need to be flashed onto the device during the firmware update? Try the firmware update again, but with the palettes directory on the SD card at the same time? Seems like a lot of faff just to update the palettes whenever you want to change them, but who knows.
Perhaps! I don't know if I can just replace the firmware with the same version but that's a good idea. I've tried a few things so far like a FAT formatted smaller card but that didn't help.
It would explain why it takes up to 5 mins for a flash if it's copying the palette files. I would dump the Palettes directory on the SD card AND the firmware file in the root. It will probably reflash with the same firmware.
This was also my thought. It probably has a function to update any palettes within the Firmware update. Great thought, @Yarc-1981. Waiting for the second channel video where we revisit this.
I only subconsciously noticed how NES games don't tend to use the yellow region of the color palette often. Makes sense now seeing that color-bar screen @ 54:07.
You can eliminate jailbars on famicoms via additional modding. I haven't modded enough of them to know what is needed on all revisions, but when I took a video tap straight off the PPU and wrapped it in copper tape (which requires desoldering the PPU), I got no jailbars. People also suggested putting caps across v+ to ground, but that changed nothing for me. Famicoms can be bought for extremely cheaply, so I personally think it's worth doing the mod.
The location of those caps matters - and it also varies from board to board by a lot. There are some boards where putting in a cap in the right place can significantly reduce the jailbars, and there are some where the effect is negligible.
Not a single regular Famicom has controllers ports, but, the 2nd revision, the Famicom AV, which looks pretty much like a NES Top Loader, has controllers ports with the same conector as the NES.
I've had a marginal PPU act like that before, it's quite noticable on SMB3, the white thing you can fall through on the first level and clouds. Turns out it was overheating slightly, if I put a fan on it, it stops. So what I did was just undervolt it instead, 4v results in it working fine, but no glitching.
Thanks for this video, I've had my eye on those RGB boards for a while. The replica console is attractive because modifying the original for RGB is kinda involved. Not sure which way to go now!
While watching Adrian opening his new FamiCom, I wanted to see how bad my FamiClone was inside. And it is three boards with some tiny components and a globtop on each, in addition two of six screws where torked so hard they don't work fully, I washable to remove them and make them not fall out again. The console works, but as it's cheap, I wasn't expecting much, so I am happy enough.
17:28 thru 17:35 -- most likely its switching pallettes between other clones and emulators (fceux is a nes emulator) But hey thats just my theory, a colour changing theory!!!! Thanks for reading and commenting and liking. 😎 (and for aiden only, hearting if he so chooses)
That may be a SEGA Saturn video connector. It is compatible with SCART (I own that cable,) and I seem to remember it has S-video compatibility as well.
For the palettes, at one point you mentioned that the system could be rebooted by pressing things on the game controller. Perhaps that is the same for the palettes? I would try holding select and pressing other buttons on the controller to see what happens.
Hi Adrian, loved this! :) Regarding the shooter game, can you do a video on how that actually works? How does the game get feedback from a light shining at a crt? I remember having a game that did something similar growing up in the 80’s… can’t remember what it was though. Thanks heaps :)
Looking at the NES schematics, it seems that pin 21 gives the composite video out through a transistor, going then to the RF modulator. Maybe probing on the PPU itself was too weak a signal? Seems weird that the output is not correct. Maybe it doesn't like to be floating?
This is pretty neat. Was thinking of getting an old NES for nostalgia reasons and to play an old cartridge I still own. Now I'm thinking the clone may be a better buy.
Yeah especially the Lite version -- really I think the firmware updates on the full SD card version is pointless, so I would say save the $30 and get the Lite.
The reason they used two audio jacks is so that the end user doesn't have to fiddle with the tv settings to find mono. Otherwise you will only hear the sound coming from either the left or right speaker. With both you hear sound coming from both sides.
Aw, I was thinking of getting one of the kits before the video went up, but they appear to have gone up in price literally as I refreshed the page :( Not by all that much, but still.
Yes would be interesting to place the PPU into a working Famicom to check for sparkle. It maybe an interaction between ppu & FPGA due to voltage levels. Might need pull up/down resistors. Due to chip technologies ie mos or cmos. Seen issues when repairing games/ arcade machines with modern ic.
Given that one of the steps is converting the signal to digital RGB and that, if I'm not wrong, there's a way to output HDMI out of the original NESRGB, this thing should be moddable to output native digital video with even less of a delay (also, why not connect both composite outs to the PPU instead instead of converting and backconverting?).
Weren't there board layouts since it's opensource hardware? Or was that only for the Lava addon (PPU interposer) board? For the pinouts... although that has been solved as Saturn. But other interconnects vs toning out and guessing.
I think I'd be tempted to get a MiSTER board. That does the whole of the NES on an FPGA in hardware in an FPGA. But you can also do loads of other systems too.
I've had a Mister for years and it is great, but it is still emulation. (Albeit inside a FPGA) If you want to use a real cartridge or your original accessories, this is a fantastic route.
I don't know about DirecTV but that looks like a Sega Saturn AV port. I'm pretty sure of it. It looks like you already figured that out though. This is probably one of the best modern NES solutions and most people will miss it because they'd pass it off as aliexpress junk .
I thought that the audio issues you talked about afflicted NOAC chips (NES-on-a-chip integrated circuit)? I've never heard it associated with unofficial chip clones.
NES carts have 72 pins, Famicom has 60. but there are tons of converters available, ranging from cheap, to very versatile and expensive, like the Twin-Pin dual slot adapter.
most PAL TV's will accept NTSC video, especially if the TV has scart, 99% positive it will accept NTSC through composite and RGB scart. edit: i use this console on my Pal AV5.
A lot of Famicon clones in central and east Europe (just an example, they were seen in many other places too) had DB9 connectors. I fondly remember various variants, made under Pegasus brands, that were available in Poland. (Literally NES was known as Pegasus in Poland, not NES, or Famicon). I am sure many of these clones were done without Nintendo license, in early 90s, but you could get them even in mid and late 90s in some places. I am sure they were made somewhere in East Asia, but were very cheap (often integrating all original chips into one IC), and were in general same shape as Japanese Famicon, same cartridges (usually set with a set of cartridge with many games, and color variations of games, 99 in 1, 999 in 1, and similar, but usually something like 20 or 30 distinct games probably). The fact that they use DB9 was kind of nice, as it was easy to make extensions, fix cables, or swap them between ports, if you had issues with the other one.
Interesting. The competition, Sega Master System, has full RGB output and looks pristine via RetroTink 5x (after an hour of tweaking parameters). I was hoping for the same on the NES, but it seems impossible without FPGA add-on.
So the reason you didn't get the extra audio channels from Akumajou Densetsu is because it uses an extra sound chip, the Konami vrc7. The Everdrive doesn't support expansion audio on the standard/older/bootleg models iirc, requiring the N8 or N8 pro model instead, which actually emulates it.
Per the StoneAgeGamer storefront that is the official North American distributor of Everdrives,, the regular N8 supports expansion audio on the Famicom as well as modded NES systems (and while it doesn't explicitly say so, it no doubt works with the various Analogue Nt systems and the Retro USB AVS). Perhaps though it has to be enabled (I have the N8 Pro, so I can't go check)? Also, I seem to vaguely recall that Adrian bought a bootleg Everdrive. Sometimes they aren't 1:1 to the official products and that could be the problem here.
Well it's certainly one way to get a "new" NES or Famicom today without going down the route of the NOAC-based modern things that don't always get the emulation quite right... :)
I always wonder ... if things like these use "original chips", this means "original consoles" needs to be sacrificed, right? So mayhaps cosmetically and functionally working unites are joinked for chips and trashed?
This console needs a Sega Saturn ntsc csync or sync on luma cable RGB SCART cable. I can build you one with a very high quality 10pin mini din connector and shielded cable. Let me know on Bluesky if you need one 😉
Some updates:
Thanks to Patron Daniel, he pointed out that the DIN-10 connector might be using the Sega Saturn pinout. (I was unaware the Saturn used a Mini DIN 10) I compared the physical pinout on this console with the Sega Saturn and it's a perfect match.! gamesx.com/grafx/satpin.jpg The only potential issue is the RGBS cables you can buy are likely wired with the "Sync" being wired to the Composite video pin. This will work fine on SCART displays and probably the Sony PVM, but for monitors like the Commodore 1084 this will not work properly when using the DE9 input. So I am probably going to make a cable....
Also some info on the PPU composite strangeness from viewer @chepossofare: "The signal from PPU is perfectly normal: There are 5 EXTs pins on the PPU that, when configured, outputs indexes for the palette color. Those are used by the FPGA to understand the pixel color. EXT0-3 are on the PPU but EXT4 is multiplexed on the composite pin21, so you are basically seeing composite video + bit for EXT4." So it turns out this is 100% normal and is just how the NESRGB and this implementation of RGB for the NES works.
I have also figured out how to get custom color palettes, so I will make an update video on the second channel once I get my DIN-10 cable (to show off RGB) and I'll discuss how the custom palettes work. In that video I will also test the Rev E PPU on a real NES to see if that sparkle problem carries over to real hardware.
You either watch my viewing history,
Or RUclips uses my history to give video suggestions.
This is not the first time I spent a day looking up a topic, (Nentendo)
And the next day one I see a new video about the subject.
Definitely cooler than clones from company's like Hyperkin and Retro-bit that use an NES-on-a-chip.
as soon as i saw the connector, i went "oh no, nonono, this is the sega saturn one"
@@JohnWojt The chip usually isn't the problem. It's usually that they cheap out on the motherboards. The chip itself would likely be 100% compatible if not for that. (they don't use all of the cartridge slot connections a lot of the time, etc.)
@@maxxdahl6062 NES-on-a-chip clones don't have much of a mainboard... they typically have one board with the so called NOAC chip.. a cartridge slot and some supporting power electronics and a second board with the that does the video interfacing (especially to convert to hdmi) they typically epoxy the chip... Intellectual property concerns amongst Chinese chip makers??... they suffer from video glitching, sound and compatibility issues.
Loving that VEDIO port. Classic Ali Express!
NTSC: Approximated color palette from an original NTSC console.
PC-10 = Derived from sampling Nintendo PlayChoice 10 Arcade’s RGB color palette (same PPU used in Sharp Famicom Titler?).
FCEUX: A popular emulator’s digital RGB color palette.
With the full motherboards on aliexpress, the output jack is actually a Sega Saturn jack! Its becoming semi standard to use as a fully featured jack, as the Sega Saturn outputs composite, s-video, and rgb, so thats how you would get s-video, just like rgb. However, I don't know of any good quality saturn s-video cables, ive only had cheap ones that are pretty sucky, so i suggest anyone make their own if you're able and can't find a good quality one out there.
I might've gotten ahead of myself, sent this while i was watching hah, but my word of warning for Saturn s-video cables still stands
Also! The precise issue with a lot of the UMG made chips--which i believe were originally reverse engineered and produced by Micro Genius--is that the two bits that define there duty cycle width of the pulse channels (00 for 12.5%, 01 for 25%, 10 for 50% square, 11 for 75% which sounds the same as 25%) are read wrong which reverses the order of each duty cycle setting, so Mario which mostly use 50% for the music ans 12.5% for sound effects, which is what makes games sound so different!
Also also.. spare famicom boards, which very commonly have the E varient chips (Ive never seen an NES with Es instead of Gs, are themselves pretty abundant and can cheapy be bought from Japan, so that must be how they got legit chips in this system!
With the weird different signals you saw with the original PPU video signal and the FPGA video signal, i believe that is totally normal output when the NESRGB is hijacking the PPU. there was a pin on it called PPUV, and when the FPGA is active, the output is usually solid white with some of the sprites being all gray, Thats most likely what you were seeing, with the small spikes likely being the sprites on screen.
(Great choice with 8BIT Music Power ;) )
MiSTeraddons uses Saturn cables for their new analog onboard and has been having cables manufactured that are probably high quality.
retro gaming cables uk have saturn s-video, component and rgb scart cables
I have about 4 official Saturn S-Video cables, from back in the day. All with decent video and from Japan.
I believe Insurrection Industries makes a high quality Saturn S-Video cable as well.
@@TonyToon oh cool, good to know! I just have the older one with VGA port for all outputs
Successful Adrian always makes me so happy.
there were two main reasons as to why the international cartridges were bigger than the japanese ones. the first is that nintendo wanted the console to feel more like a professional piece of equipment more than a toy, so they made the console and carts feel similar to a VCR and VHS tape. second, the bigger cartridges appealed to stores as it made them more difficult to steal them by hiding them in or under clothing.
The main reason is that they needed the additional pins for their CIC lockout mechanism.
Right. Every piece of Famicom hardware has that "toy" feel, compared to the NES. Especially Famicom Disk System.
8 years ago I got my NES rgb-modded and it cost me between 200$ and 300$ CAD. This "clone" having rgb and s-video is an absolute steal! And will give better nes video to many people.
It's turnkey meaning no hardware expertise is needed and that is what is so cool IMHO
I'm not a console kid but I'm glad I stayed for the whole video. Hardware hacking, oscilloscope probing, esoteric video signals discussion... great video!!
Side story back then, in Hong Kong official got same grey machine as in USA, however almost 99% of people directly buy "parallel import" version of Japanese "red & white" machine since both the unofficial support and choice of games are more (grey machine did have few games), so Hong Kong children play the same game as Japanese with all kind of weird non-kanji characters without knowing Japanese at all.
Hong Kong actually got official versions of both the NES and Famicom. Definitely a topic Nintendo fans should look into.
Yup, I have a Hong Kong edition Famicom that is 50Hz
@1:03:27, marginal may not be an issue with a bad or marginal PPU. The timing of the data pins with reference to the clock may just me a little slower or faster. This occasionally happens when designing an MCU/FPGA project when you interface to tap signals from an existing third party device where you do not have access to all the variants of components or the original intended design specifications for proper pin timing ranges to ensure 0 data errors under all circumstances.
Ince the NES does not output RGB signals itself, the actual color rendition of an NTSC TV is going to vary from set to set. The first RGB mods for the NES were using the PPU from the PC10 arcade hardware which indeed DOES output RGB for a standard arcade monitor. This has a palette that makes it look very different to your typical NTSC TV but it worked. As the newer RGB mods kept being released, they didn't require the PPU from the rare PC10 arcade boards but they would still use the pallette from them while others would use a palette intended to mimic a typical NTSC TV. Of course, as time went on there would be discussion on what is the 'correct' way to display fc/nes video over RGB when no home console version of the hardware generated RGB in order to take an acceptable palette from. Nowadays, the mods for any output besides composite I have ever seen always allow you to switch between the palettes used. FCEUX just happens to be one of the most popular NES emulators and it's the palette it uses on PC hardware, which was obviously RGB. I would be willing to bet the SD card has standard NES emulator palette files on it and you might be able to download more or alternates and pop em on there. I have seen this many times before. I have even seen internal SD cards on some clone systems that are only there to hold the palette files and they only have one on them, must have been the cheapest and easiest way to handle it in whatever overseas manufacturing plant they were made in. Anyways, being able to change the palette on the system wile connected via composite implies that it isn't routing the PPU video directly to the jacks like the fc/nes but is instead using something like a video encoder that also handles the composite as well as the RGB/SVID etc.
I just so happened to own a retail buy/sell/trade video game store and fc/nes clones from around the world were one of my personal obsessions, which is why I know this stuff. :D
Anyways, I love your videos!
After finishing the video. Lol, then he proceeds to guess half of it. hehe
Trivia on the short cables (which also plagues the Super Famicom, making it very easy to distinguish between japanese, US and european versions): the reason they are so short is because, instead of treating the console like a TV add-on (like a VCR), they treated it more like a computer, so it was supposed to be placed away from the TV and near the players. That also explains why the official RF cable and power adapter are so long.
To be fair, it was the same here, years ago. My first Colecovision and the Intellivision had about 15' of RF cable and the systems had short controller cables.
@@AtariBorn It was the front-loader design (as well as the fact they marketed it as an "entertainment system") what contributed to the change in placement. The shape also contributed to some people using it as a table replacement, which led to some unfortunate accidents.
It took some more time before the japanese consumer started placing the console closer to the TV and further from the player (and I believe only with some consoles)..
You can even find those cartridge adapters inside some early 5 screw NES cartridges the one most people point to is Gyromite, but they have been in some early excite bikes, and the way you can 100% guarantee to get one though it will be a little bit more expensive is to get yourself a copy of stack-up because 100% of copies of stack up have the Japanese ROM board connected through an official Nintendo adapter
Getting the NES in 1986 was pretty early. The system came out in North America on October 18, 1985. I managed to snag an HDMI modded NES for around $300 a couple years ago. It would be awesome if someone was able to come out with a new version of that.
SCART was a blessing...
A shame it never came to American regions... or ntsc
I almost ventured into the SCART cable/switching fiasco. Luckily, RetroRGB started making awesome component cables for everything. No NTSC-J cables to deal with and no sync on whatever issues. If only the industry embraced YPbPr, at least.
like the "VEDIO" output
Before the NESRGB the only way to get RGB was to use an RP2C03B from a Playchoice-10 or certain Vs. boards and modify the main PCB to grab the RGB output. And that would only work on an NTSC console.
That's because they are (at least believed to be) based on NTSC PPUs. I'm glad other solutions, like the NESRGB, exist since I hate to think about the PlayChoice-10 and VS. System boards that were sacrificed for RGB. Though, with the VS. System games were sold (also?) as individual chip sets.
Also, the PC10 colors were extremely different from the NTSC composite PPUs.
@emmettturner9452 The base palettes don't look too different (at least on the NESDev wiki). It might be because the emphasis bit works differently on the 2C02 vs. 2C03. The former will darken the color while the latter will set it to full brightness. Thus, it would cause a more striking difference in a game's colors.
@@douro20 it’s a lot closer than most Vs System games where making them different was a form of copy protection but the difference is striking when cycling through on devices like NESRGB, Framemeister XRGB Mini, etc
Adrian spent hours and hours testing the games on this device. What dedication, what great effort this man goes thru to make content for us ! (surely he wasn't playing just for the fun of it)
Btw the signal from PPU is perfectly normal: there are 5 EXTs pins on the PPU that, when configured, outputs indexes for the palette color. Those are used by the fpga to understand the pixel color.
EXT0-3 are on the PPU, EXT4 is multiplexed on the composite out on pin21, so you are basically seeing composite video + bit for EXT4.
Awesome, thanks for the explanation. So this method renders the original composite output inoperative (when using an add-on board) or I suppose it injects a new composite signal into Pin 21 for the on board composite output?
@@adriansdigitalbasement Yep the mod does not pass through the composite output from the PPU to the output jack. The composite signal coming from the jack is recreated by the mod's electronics.
Google famicom cart cracker if I recall correctly it's just a c clamp
@@adriansdigitalbasement addendum: the composite signal is still useful (and used by the fpga) since you need blank+sync to output the generated rgb.
Looking forward to the part 2 update. Amazing console.
I should note that later Famicom revisions had both NES controller ports and composite out. The first is called the Twin Famicom, which is by Sharp and and was a combo of the NES and floppy drive, and the latter is called the AV Famicom, which is basically the Japanese version of the top loader, same as the American one with the differences being cart slot and socket for the Japanese zapper.
the Twin had composite video, but no NES conttollerports, just hardwired controllers like the HVC-001.
i've been playtesting my Lava RSC (white with pink❤) for about a week now, and i'm thoroughly impressed.
the shell feels high quality, on par with the original, and the image quality is crazy good, even composite on my CRT is pixelperfect. i have owned Twins, Titlers, and RGB modded dozens of AV Famicoms myself back in the day, and honestly, the RSC beats them all hands down, in picture quality, features, and ease of use/versatility.
i predict these will sell out quickly, and/or go up in price, so get one while they last. white and pink is already sold out atm.
Wow! Cartridges are brilliant!! It seems like magic to me who had a cassette player. Typed in was our only alternative to that
I had NO idea that the NES zapper could sync to scanlines. I thought it just looked for the bright square in Duck Hunt. Were there any real games that took advantage of this?
i believe Strike Wolf works like that, Boojakasha has a video about it.
What a brilliant video, we'd love some more console content 🤩🥳👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Something I noticed about the NES color palette, is it only appears muted (especially red) on regular TV's, but on Sony's red was actually vibrant, and on SMB1 the sky was actually blue (vs a purple hue we usually know it as). Emulators ironically have a Sony CX palette which emulates that very palette, and I'm not entirely sure which palette is correct. In very early photos of when SMB was being developed, Nintendo was using Trinitrons, but later they had generic TV's by the time SMB3 was being worked on. So perhaps the "intended" palette depends on the game and what TV/monitor Nintendo was using when developing said games.
For poor sound on most clones, from what I've gathered, the NES on a chip had the pulse wave duty cycles reversed which is where the sound change happened. But I'm not 100% on that.
fantastic video Adrian really enjoyed watching it
I think Nintendo made the nes cartridges that big because they wanted to make the nes fit in with other av gear of the time, and they wanted it to feel less like a toy and more like a serious piece of av equipment, to separate it from the negative look on consoles at the time, right after the market crash of ‘83, although idk because I wasn’t there. I wasn’t even born yet.
1:05:12 such noisy pixels used to be visible on my modded GameGear too. Issue was that the pixel clock of the console was wonky. The LCD mod I was using luckily had a local pixel clock as well that could be used and it fixed the issue. Question is where does the pixel clock come from on the NES? Probably internal to the PPU?
Judging by the thumbnail, Techmoan needs to be in this.
I'm a simple man. I see low latency. I upvote.
As others have mentioned, it does look like it's a Saturn Jack: 10-pin mini DIN with Y and C signals. Of course, it could also be entirely custom pinout. That'd be a bit nuts when Saturn cables already exist. But it could. Interesting video though!
Your so technical, I love it ❤
The reason the US NES was changed to look like it does was to make it look more like a VCR and less like a gaming console as they were afraid the crash of '83 had turned the buying public off of things that resembled consoles like the 2600.
"Reduced the use of LUT 31:52" -- I bet they meant that they optimized the HDL to use less LUT cells in the FPGA in that version.
NESRGB can use the SNES and N64 type multi-AV output for RGB and S-Video cables. It does require cutting a hole in the back of the case, but it looks pretty stock and matches other official Nintendo connectors and it uses the official NES SCART or JP15 or S-Video connectors for the AV connectors.
Very nice Adrian. Nicely done.
Just a thought re: the palettes. Maybe they need to be flashed onto the device during the firmware update? Try the firmware update again, but with the palettes directory on the SD card at the same time? Seems like a lot of faff just to update the palettes whenever you want to change them, but who knows.
Perhaps! I don't know if I can just replace the firmware with the same version but that's a good idea. I've tried a few things so far like a FAT formatted smaller card but that didn't help.
It would explain why it takes up to 5 mins for a flash if it's copying the palette files. I would dump the Palettes directory on the SD card AND the firmware file in the root. It will probably reflash with the same firmware.
That was my thought. The system obviously doesn't access the card directly. So a flash upgrade that includes the palettes makes sense.
This was also my thought. It probably has a function to update any palettes within the Firmware update. Great thought, @Yarc-1981. Waiting for the second channel video where we revisit this.
I'd also try just putting the zip file on too? not impossible it uses that directly, as those mini files are a pain on their own!
I only subconsciously noticed how NES games don't tend to use the yellow region of the color palette often. Makes sense now seeing that color-bar screen @ 54:07.
Yeah both yellow and red is not well represented on the PPU, for whatever reason.
the pallette files seem to just be 3 bytes of RGB for each of the colors
You can eliminate jailbars on famicoms via additional modding. I haven't modded enough of them to know what is needed on all revisions, but when I took a video tap straight off the PPU and wrapped it in copper tape (which requires desoldering the PPU), I got no jailbars. People also suggested putting caps across v+ to ground, but that changed nothing for me.
Famicoms can be bought for extremely cheaply, so I personally think it's worth doing the mod.
The location of those caps matters - and it also varies from board to board by a lot. There are some boards where putting in a cap in the right place can significantly reduce the jailbars, and there are some where the effect is negligible.
Our computer journey started with the same machine, the same year and the same age.
Excellent video. Thanks for sharing 👍
Not a single regular Famicom has controllers ports, but, the 2nd revision, the Famicom AV, which looks pretty much like a NES Top Loader, has controllers ports with the same conector as the NES.
This group even has that top loader version available, I saw it on the listing page for the non-lite model in the related items section.
I've had a marginal PPU act like that before, it's quite noticable on SMB3, the white thing you can fall through on the first level and clouds. Turns out it was overheating slightly, if I put a fan on it, it stops. So what I did was just undervolt it instead, 4v results in it working fine, but no glitching.
The Sharp Twin Famicom is the best NES clone. It has a built in floppy disk drive, and built in composite out.
I think you're misremembering when you got the NES. By 1986, it had been out
34:50 it the SEGA Saturn Video out, it has RGB, Composit and S-Video !
You think maybe the palettes need to be on the SD card when the FW update happens and it might copy them over to the internal storage?
Thanks for this video, I've had my eye on those RGB boards for a while. The replica console is attractive because modifying the original for RGB is kinda involved. Not sure which way to go now!
While watching Adrian opening his new FamiCom, I wanted to see how bad my FamiClone was inside. And it is three boards with some tiny components and a globtop on each, in addition two of six screws where torked so hard they don't work fully, I washable to remove them and make them not fall out again.
The console works, but as it's cheap, I wasn't expecting much, so I am happy enough.
Have you tried putting the pallet files on the SD card when flashing the firmware to see if they get flashed at the same time
Yep. I actually figured out the palette situation and will share it in the update video on this console.
The video socket looks slightly different from the MD2. There is one more pin at the bottom...?
17:28 thru 17:35 -- most likely its switching pallettes between other clones and emulators (fceux is a nes emulator)
But hey thats just my theory, a colour changing theory!!!! Thanks for reading and commenting and liking. 😎 (and for aiden only, hearting if he so chooses)
That may be a SEGA Saturn video connector. It is compatible with SCART (I own that cable,) and I seem to remember it has S-video compatibility as well.
For the palettes, at one point you mentioned that the system could be rebooted by pressing things on the game controller. Perhaps that is the same for the palettes? I would try holding select and pressing other buttons on the controller to see what happens.
Hi Adrian, loved this! :)
Regarding the shooter game, can you do a video on how that actually works? How does the game get feedback from a light shining at a crt? I remember having a game that did something similar growing up in the 80’s… can’t remember what it was though. Thanks heaps :)
Yeah might be a fun video. It's exactly how a light pen works on old 80s computers as well
Looking at the NES schematics, it seems that pin 21 gives the composite video out through a transistor, going then to the RF modulator. Maybe probing on the PPU itself was too weak a signal? Seems weird that the output is not correct. Maybe it doesn't like to be floating?
Nah you'd see the video as normal. I pinned a comment but this is normal behavior for the PPU when connected to the RGB FPGA
@ okay. How weird, though!
This is pretty neat. Was thinking of getting an old NES for nostalgia reasons and to play an old cartridge I still own. Now I'm thinking the clone may be a better buy.
Yeah especially the Lite version -- really I think the firmware updates on the full SD card version is pointless, so I would say save the $30 and get the Lite.
The reason they used two audio jacks is so that the end user doesn't have to fiddle with the tv settings to find mono. Otherwise you will only hear the sound coming from either the left or right speaker. With both you hear sound coming from both sides.
Great video!
why did you cut the trace twice? also your audio is still connected to the right trace on the other side of the board. (nvm you noticed)
Another great video, something different.
Aw, I was thinking of getting one of the kits before the video went up, but they appear to have gone up in price literally as I refreshed the page :(
Not by all that much, but still.
Thanks for the entertainment
the flickering dots may be fixed with some or even a lot of quality 100nF capacitors on rails near the chips.
Yes would be interesting to place the PPU into a working Famicom to check for sparkle.
It maybe an interaction between ppu & FPGA due to voltage levels.
Might need pull up/down resistors.
Due to chip technologies ie mos or cmos.
Seen issues when repairing games/ arcade machines with modern ic.
Given that one of the steps is converting the signal to digital RGB and that, if I'm not wrong, there's a way to output HDMI out of the original NESRGB, this thing should be moddable to output native digital video with even less of a delay (also, why not connect both composite outs to the PPU instead instead of converting and backconverting?).
Hi, what’s the model of powerbank you use at 15:29? Looks pretty useful!
Was the sparkling artifacts the OAMADDR corruption NESdev mentions for that revision?
You've got that backwards, sparkle was on the "E" chip that came in the Lava, good video from the "G" chip which is also the one with alleged OAM bug.
Have you tried adding the palletes.zip file directly to the root dir of the SD card?
Weren't there board layouts since it's opensource hardware? Or was that only for the Lava addon (PPU interposer) board? For the pinouts... although that has been solved as Saturn. But other interconnects vs toning out and guessing.
They released schematics for the Lite version but not the full one.
I think I'd be tempted to get a MiSTER board. That does the whole of the NES on an FPGA in hardware in an FPGA. But you can also do loads of other systems too.
I've had a Mister for years and it is great, but it is still emulation. (Albeit inside a FPGA) If you want to use a real cartridge or your original accessories, this is a fantastic route.
The Genesis multi pin connector is actually capable of S-video. It was supposed to be a feature on the Genesis console but never got implemented.
Mega Drive!
I don't know about DirecTV but that looks like a Sega Saturn AV port. I'm pretty sure of it. It looks like you already figured that out though. This is probably one of the best modern NES solutions and most people will miss it because they'd pass it off as aliexpress junk .
👍
I thought that the audio issues you talked about afflicted NOAC chips (NES-on-a-chip integrated circuit)? I've never heard it associated with unofficial chip clones.
forums.nesdev.org/viewtopic.php?t=17715
The UMC CPU used in many clones has the sound issue as described here.
55:25 cool how you're figuring out what the pins are!
Awesome t-shirt!
do the NES carts work on it without the cover on? like is the pinout the same? if so you could probably 3dprint a cover that fits the NES carts.
NES carts have 72 pins, Famicom has 60. but there are tons of converters available, ranging from cheap, to very versatile and expensive, like the Twin-Pin dual slot adapter.
Does this console works on PAL CRT ?
most PAL TV's will accept NTSC video, especially if the TV has scart, 99% positive it will accept NTSC through composite and RGB scart. edit: i use this console on my Pal AV5.
@@einherrjar Guess I will order one then :)
This zapper test program is awesome. From where to download it?
I'm not sure. I have had a ROMset forever with all these test ROMs included.
A lot of Famicon clones in central and east Europe (just an example, they were seen in many other places too) had DB9 connectors. I fondly remember various variants, made under Pegasus brands, that were available in Poland. (Literally NES was known as Pegasus in Poland, not NES, or Famicon). I am sure many of these clones were done without Nintendo license, in early 90s, but you could get them even in mid and late 90s in some places. I am sure they were made somewhere in East Asia, but were very cheap (often integrating all original chips into one IC), and were in general same shape as Japanese Famicon, same cartridges (usually set with a set of cartridge with many games, and color variations of games, 99 in 1, 999 in 1, and similar, but usually something like 20 or 30 distinct games probably).
The fact that they use DB9 was kind of nice, as it was easy to make extensions, fix cables, or swap them between ports, if you had issues with the other one.
Greetings from Poland :)
Yes...Yes, I was screaming at the screen as Adrian missed the audio trace to the 3.5mm jack... :-D
Wouldn't the SD card slot allow you to run ROMs on the original chips?
Cool, thank you. P, P, U, Please.
SEGA Saturn AV connector?
Interesting. The competition, Sega Master System, has full RGB output and looks pristine via RetroTink 5x (after an hour of tweaking parameters). I was hoping for the same on the NES, but it seems impossible without FPGA add-on.
Wouldn't a good test of the delay be to fake the zapper and play duck hunt or something? You could check for the interrupt and video change delay.
i have a tear in my eye wishing i had a new Zelda cartridge with modern upgrades that would work forever and original controllers
No controller has ever been as indestructible as the NES controller (source: many thrown, yet unharmed, NES controllers)
Can the TF Card slot support external ROMs?
So the reason you didn't get the extra audio channels from Akumajou Densetsu is because it uses an extra sound chip, the Konami vrc7. The Everdrive doesn't support expansion audio on the standard/older/bootleg models iirc, requiring the N8 or N8 pro model instead, which actually emulates it.
Per the StoneAgeGamer storefront that is the official North American distributor of Everdrives,, the regular N8 supports expansion audio on the Famicom as well as modded NES systems (and while it doesn't explicitly say so, it no doubt works with the various Analogue Nt systems and the Retro USB AVS). Perhaps though it has to be enabled (I have the N8 Pro, so I can't go check)? Also, I seem to vaguely recall that Adrian bought a bootleg Everdrive. Sometimes they aren't 1:1 to the official products and that could be the problem here.
Yeah, probably. Or it's not an N8 and it's one of the earlier models
From computer tech standpoint, this device being able to recover from a failed firmware upgrade is huge.
Cheaper famiclones will have the 50% and 25% duty cycles swapped. Some actually prefer that...
Guessing it's because they grew up with the clone systems
@blarghblargh Nothing wrong with that! Nostalgia is a hell of a thing
Well it's certainly one way to get a "new" NES or Famicom today without going down the route of the NOAC-based modern things that don't always get the emulation quite right... :)
This console needs a Sarurn cable, as the av port is 10pin. Genesis 2 is 9pin
I thought the flickering dots was normal. I've seen that in tons of NES games. Maybe it's a real PPU but some were better than others even when new.
I always wonder ... if things like these use "original chips", this means "original consoles" needs to be sacrificed, right? So mayhaps cosmetically and functionally working unites are joinked for chips and trashed?
I like the way they spelled video on the back of the console "vedio"
This console needs a Sega Saturn ntsc csync or sync on luma cable RGB SCART cable. I can build you one with a very high quality 10pin mini din connector and shielded cable. Let me know on Bluesky if you need one 😉