@@debbiewinterton1200 by draining the batteries completely in cycles and then measuring how much charge the battery holds every so often. It simulates years of usage.
@@joescott Joe love your videos. Please do one on the mars project by werhner Von Braun. He named the leader of the mars project "Elon" in this book. And hope you could talk about similar stuff in that videos. Please please make a video. Id love to hear your thoughts
fieryspy64 : von Braun’s vision is roughly 75 years old now... No question he was brilliant, but he could not have foreseen the tech advancements and breakthroughs we’ve seen since his vision. I think Musk and other visionaries can update that vision to better fit our current technology.
I have a 2013 Chevy Volt with 110,000 miles and has lost no range. When I bought it my friends said I wouldn't get 20,000 miles from the battereis. Not so.
Chevrolet hiding the fact the battery has lost capacity by restricting it in the first place does not mean the battery has lost capacity overall. Consumer perception does not equal science.
If the vehicle still functions to the datasheet specification, then _the vehicle_ hasn't lost any battery capacity, irrespective of any underlying battery management.
@@MrDavidfuchser A 2010 Volt owner drove over: 350,000 miles in his Volt, which GM asked to examine. GM found no battery degradation and showed the evidence to prove it. One smart thing GM did, as most EV's mfc's do now is, the car only uses 50% of the battery so some degradation likely happens but isn't seen by the owner and doesn't affect range. I own a '12 Volt with ~80k miles on it and see no batt. degradation. We charge and drive it, every day, and have saved thousands from buying gasoline as we charge it with our solar panels, for free.
As a automotive technician who changes EV batteries on a semi regular basis, I can tell you that 90% of the time the old batteries are sent off for reconditioning. And most of the “new” batteries we install are remanufactured.
The battery pack is not a black box...there are lots of different parts and connections that can fail. Most of the bitsy little LiIon cells inside may be good as new. I think its positive news that the packs can be maintained and repaired.
@@aps-c1766 No, it just means the replacement battery you received under warranty was remanufactured. This is true of many automotive parts replaced under warranty or insurance in the case of an accident.
@@aps-c1766 It should mean they redid EVERY battery cell,not just the dead ones like they do for $500 aftermarket batteries. But thats my guess...the old ones could still be years old.
I think you really need to have a balanced look at what the cost is of "taking care of the mess" vs the cost of "dumping it into a hole in the ground and burying it all". It could be that the dump actually has a better overall environmental impact. If the hazard of that impact is local, known, low and the reduce cost means more people are buying cheaper EV's/using solar and using less fossils... then I'd say dump away.
@@MarkTarsis well, I guess if you could dump it in a way that doesn't impact the envirement... I would say store them instead of dumping. Perhaps we mean the same thing but when using the word dumping, it doesn't seem that great.
I'm not one of these "save the trees", "don't burn gas", "CO2 is killing us", etc, people, but seriously, if you have to process it from raw materials into something to use, recycle the damn thing whether it's cheaper to mine or not, recycle it. Paper rots, don't really care. Metal rusts, but it is continuously mined, recycle it. Lithium is a pain in the ass, recycle it. Though to be fair, a lot of the places we mine for all of this could very well be the landfill of a previous civilization. Planet is old, for all we know we could be the 20th time that humans have gotten to this level of tech.
Taking care of the mess means making sure it could be retrieved later, if a recycling program comes along, that would make it economical. That solves 2 problems: It keeps toxic chemicals out of the ground water, and, it's a future source of materials, to make replacement batteries.
I have a BoltEV that I charge off my 10kW solar system. The key trick that makes it work is because my Utility has me on a time of use rate, I charge the car at the time of day when my system is producing excess energy. I produce about half my energy during the afternoons when most of my usage is the rest of the day. Without the car charging the on-peak credit justs build up and the utility pays me a pittance for it at the end of of the year. By charging the car with my excess generation, I'm paying next to nothing to "fuel" my traveling. The car's initial cost was higher of course, but don't get me started on how much you save in maintenance costs with a BEV. And yes, someday, when the battery pack is worn out, and I can't beat you off the line any more, it will become incorporated into my storage-ready solar system.
My cousin bought his wife a Chevy bolt back in April. They have the free nights and weekends with NEC retail. His wife just uses the standard 110 plug, because the town is only 15 square miles and she doesn't drive that far on any given day. My cousins wife is a teacher at the school their kids attend, so she doesn't have to drive extra miles to get them to school and back every day.
@@pooltuna I have afternoon peak power that goes begging so charge the car then and do my driving in the mornings. My office is just a block from home so it motivates me to walk to work after lunch to be able to stick it to the utility.
@@joescott Joe love your videos. Please do one on the mars project by werhner Von Braun. He named the leader of the mars project "Elon" in this book. And hope you could talk about similar stuff in that videos. Please please make a video. Id love to hear your thoughts. This has really not been popular topic I don't know why. Hope you shed some light.
I work for the World Bank on rural electrification in developing countries -- with a focus on renewable energy powered or hybrid RE/diesel mini grids. We're starting to see companies employing second life EV batteries in this market as well.
@@iirossii2005 Oh yeah I know. I've already seen a few of his other videos. It's just that I'm mainly interested in EVs and thought it's a fun coincidence that just as I'm through his EV videos he uploads a new one.
@@joescott Joe love your videos. Please do one on the mars project by werhner Von Braun. He named the leader of the mars project "Elon" in this book. And hope you could talk about similar stuff in that videos. Please please make a video. Id love to hear your thoughts
@@bosstowndynamics5488 Same thing can be found with the Leaf and I'm sure most other battery packs. To create a single huge pack could be to sensitive to a single failed cell.
The guy and his team who invented lithium-ion batteries in the first place, has invented a new battery with 21k charge cycles that actually improves over the first few hundred charge cycles. Sounds too good to be true but guy has worked on batteries for like 30+ years and is highly respected so you'd think that he's trustworthy. spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/energy/environment/a-glass-battery-that-keeps-getting-better so hand-me-down batteries might basically become real lol
@@iwiffitthitotonacc4673 if you are referring to John Goodenough, who is generally credited as the father of Li-Ion batteries, he did not invent this new glass battery he is presently working on. He was brought into the project to make improvements and help develop it for production. Just to give credit where it's due, it was invented by Maria Braga.
@@SummitSummit Women never get credit because, for reasons unknown, men refuse to recognize their achievements. Maybe insecurity? Regardless, women have done and continue to do outstanding work. The credit for the glass battery goes clearly to Maria H. Braga. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Helena_Braga#Research
Lots of people are here screaming about the cost of EV battery replacement seem to forget about the constant stream of maintenance and repairs for infernal combustion cars; tuneups, oil changes, water pumps, belts, hoses, alternators- even the battery! The incremental cost isn't as much as most think at first blush, far from it.
very true stikk. I had a manager of a ford repair shop at a ford dealership in SC tell me that they net WAY more profit from fixing cars than they do selling new ones.
I bought my 2013 Nissan leaf used for about seven grand in 2016. It still has 83% of its battery capacity, and when it comes time to replace it, a new battery pack from Nissan is $5,500. Labor is about $500, and I just replaced the tires for about $500. The new battery pack is supposedly better than OEM, which has lasted six years so far, so I figure it ought to be good for at least another six. How many decent used cars will get you through 12 years for $13,500? Do you watch jehugarcia on RUclips? He has a video explaining how Chinese companies are buying old battery packs from electric cars and recycling them. Apparently the cells don't wear out at the same rate and some of them are basically like new when they disassemble the pack. They just basically repackage and resell those.
@@pooltuna It looks like he is enjoying it. And it probably costs him about a third (or less) of the cost of an i.c. car to run..... Surely you have to sleep Bobby? That's when EV owners charge up....usually at rates that are around a third of the daytime cost. By the way Bobby, the cost of gasoline/petrol will begin to climb once EV's begin to take a much larger share of the new car market - EV's are already taking 7% of the new car market in the UK - and once we reach the tipping point where electric is outselling I.C. (estimated to be in around 5 to 7 years) then it will begin to be less viable for the big oil giants to extract and refine oil for a shrinking market. The cost at the pumps will surely rocket, because they'll want to keep on reeling in the mega profits they've always been used to. I don't know what the situation is in other parts of the World, but here in the UK both of the big players in the oil game - Shell and BP - have each bought EV Charge Networks. Seems like they know what's coming? Both companies are already installing EV chargers on their petrol forecourts...... P.S. The latest generation of electric cars - with ranges of around 400+ miles - are in the pipeline, and should hit the market in 12 to 18 months. And to make these cars more viable and practical, higher rate chargers are becoming more common here in the UK. I haven't seen one my self (I don't own a Tesla!) but Tesla's Supercharger network can add 75 miles of range for every five minutes it is connected to the car. So Bobby, by the time you've stopped for a break, taken a leak and had a coffee, you could have added 200 miles of range. Stating to make more sense now maybe?
Joe your conclusion about batteries is already coming true, namely recycled cells (properly processed ones) are only a few % different than just buying new old stock (older batteries designs / chemistry). At which point it will only make any sense if the battery packs are semi standardised so they can be reused as it and don't require remanufaturing. e.g. you take a tesla battery module, stand it up against a wall and plug it in. If you have to split the pack to make it sutable for reuse then the costs and effort vs just getting some new items is getting very questionable. There is a lot of room mind you to improve the reuse side of batteries but then you are bumping into the time limit on battery tech and the fact as you say batteries are getting better and better. My biggest thing with regards to reuse of the cells for energy storage though, is that there are far far better options for energy storage for gird tie use applications than lithium cell based solutions. Liquid batteries spring to mind as weights not an issue, less nasties, less volotile etc. It would make quite an interesting video to cover TBH. But the whole energy market is going to change so much in the next ten years that nobody will recognise it within a decade.
@@joescott Joe love your videos. Please do one on the mars project by werhner Von Braun. He named the leader of the mars project "Elon" in this book. And hope you could talk about similar stuff in that videos. Please please make a video. Id love to hear your thoughts. This has really not been popular topic I don't know why. Hope you shed some light.
"My biggest thing with regards to reuse of the cells for energy storage though, is that there are far far better options for energy storage for gird tie use applications than lithium cell based solutions." With these types of statements I am reminded of the following from the person who developed the early warning radar for Britain. "Give them the third best to go on with; the second best comes too late, the best never comes." I keep hearing of these claims for better options for grid energy storage yet when it actually comes to getting something in production and service, Lithium Energy Storage keeps winning out.
saw a few prius batteries get replaced in my time at toyota, but all of them had at least 200k miles on them (one had almost *400k*). all of them still drove, but were way down on power since it was only getting power from the little gas engine.
@@Gibson99 I filled in over at our Honda store for 6 months. We had battery failures every single day. 90% of them were under warranty, but still it was terrible.
Thanks for this video Joe. Everybody is talking about EVs nowadays, but not enough people talk about the lifecycle of the batteries with hard facts and data. How long a car can keep going without major refurbishment (and what happens then) is an important part of the puzzle of deciding between ICE or EV.
There are a lot less moving parts in an EV, so theoretically it is cheaper to maintain. One problem currently is that there are not many independent places to repair an EV, so you can get taken to the cleaners by the official garages. Also there are limited third party replacement parts.
@@grier2593 like $10k to fix a fender bender on a Tesla. TFL thrifty 3. 10 yr life is ridiculous, I have a 1990 f150 with 575k miles and the only major work has been $600 in clutches and get 25 mpg city and hwy. Also have a 94 crown vic that's only had ball joints replaced. 10 yr life on EVs mean only salvage yard might attempt the used market and that's if they want to worry with the hazmat issues. Now yes given the price of most EVs the owners don't care about 10yr life, but for us working stiffs this is another reason they don't make sense. IE the average age of vehicles in US is 11yrs.
@@bowez9 yeah exactly and one of the reasons I would not buy a Tesla in the next few years, but I think its more due to low volumes of EV's out on the road than anything specific to an EV technology. But like you said the first owner is only bothered about the costs in the first few years, before the sell them on.
An IONIQ is not an EV...it's a hybrid with nickel metal hydride batteries...completely different from the lithium based batteries used in EV's. EV batteries can be recharged around 10,000 times...given a range of 200 miles they will last around 150,000 miles when corrected for degradation over the course of the ten years it takes the average driver to get to that mileage at the average rate of 15k miles per year. Recycling lithium is no picnic and the cost of a new battery will remain around 75% of the price of the vehicle because lithium actually is a scarce resource, unlike fossil fuels, so increased demand cannot be met will expanding supply. We'll save the discussion of unsustainable demand on the electricity distribution grid and greater lifetime carbon emissions created by EV's compared to ICE's due to the manufacture of lithium batteries and the electricity needed to charge them for a future date. Rule of thumb...if the popular media says it, IT'S A LIE!!!
I was like "wait did he forget the intro?" And then no, just popped up suddenly at 2:07 These cold opens are getting so cold you're not sure if they'll open
I have a friend who's been running his house on fork lift batteries for over 20 years. Charges the batteries with wind and solar. It powers his house and his 3 phase machine shop. It's nice to see the world is kinda catching up.
on-site power generation & storage makes ALOT more sense. the 'grid'... simply put... wastes ALOT of power. if you don't believe it- get some 4' long fluorescent tubes. go stand under one of those HUGE 8-wire 107,000v transmission lines at night, hold the fluorescent up over your head. it will light up from the e.m. field being transmitted... and that's just in the one little tiny spot that you're standing. that e.m. field ciricles that line set in a 70' radius that spans the ENTIRE LENGTH of the transmission line. for every 1000 feet of developed line-set, you could power a tiny house apartment off that e.m. field.
Just wanna point out: Even if your EV DOES run purely off of a coal plant, it still puts out about half the pollutants and carbon per mile that an ICE car does, because a power plant is far more efficient at converting carbon to motion than an ICE is. So yeah, still cleaner than an ICE car
When my iPad is at the end of its useful life, I just use it plugged in all the time. When my tesla battery is worn out I'll just use it plugged in with a long cord :)
/walks up to the register at Walmart with 20x 100ft long cords, 10x 50ft cords, 10x 25ft cords, 20x 6ft cords and a box of earplugs. "Visiting the in-laws for Christmas."
I have solar panels on all my southern facing awnings, and have cut my "carbon footprint" substantially. Repurposing E.V. batteries sounds like a good idea.
I went through 2 batteries in my Leaf in 100k miles, passed it on to somebody with lower range needs, and hope they can get at least 50k more out of it. After that, I'd love to think the battery either gets recycled to raw materials, or repurposed.
Here's some facts for people who doubt ev's. Tesla uses 18650 batteries in a series and parallel configuration to achieve the desired voltage and storage capacity (based on how much they can fit into the vehicle and current battery technology). Now, even though the p100d uses very powerful and current hungry electric motors, they still do not draw enough amperage to cause much damage to the battery pack(s). Amperage and heat is what drains and wears out a battery the fastest. Luckily, Elon was smart enough to not only make the battery pack(s) so the voltage and amperage capabilities exceed the draw of the electric motor, but he added a liquid cooling system. I saw a study done to where they tested a p85d by draining the batteries enough times to simulate a 25 year lifespan. Now, after simulation, the batteries retained 83% charge capacity. Ev's are the future.
@@zironemegeaz well the same thing has been seen with vaping. Guys that have box mods with huge lipos (like mine, 4s 2800mah) that do not even get close to the amperage rating of the lipo cell have been seeing their batteries lasting forever. Even after over a year, I still have 99% capacity on mine and I use this fucker every day. Draining the cells quickly is what kills them the fastest.
Great video. I've seen some great DIY EV builds but the costly part is always the battery packs (even deep-cycle gel batteries are costly) - good to hear that they're likely to get significantly cheaper soon as it will put decent Lithium power packs within reach of those working with a tight budget.
I came across your channel mostly by accident, which seems to be the way I find anything really awesome on youtube. I was looking for information on Quantum Computers. I love these video's, very informative. Thanks for doing them...
1:55 - Are they seriously trying to compare the carbon-footprint of an EV battery being disposed of after a decade or more to the constant spewing of exhaust from gas cars? 🤨 🤦 Do they say that with a straight face? 🤔
It may sound ridiculous, but until the last 20 years producing solar cells took more energy than they would produce during their operational lifespans. Further, batteries never put out as much energy as you put in (resistive losses, and some internal leakage), so depending on how long they last before reprocessing, the energy cost _can_ be higher. Of course, the only one that really matters is that they're too expensive so far for the developing markets (because the developing markets _will not_ agree to wait a century for the cost to fall), but that's an entry in the "multiple options are needed" field, instead of a reason to not use the batteries.
@@absalomdraconis you hit the nail on the head but forgot to mention that decades after integration they still cannot pay for themselves from a governmental level. What most people don't realize is that solar especially have been using governments to front the bills for research, dev, and infrastructure except their energy production isn't above recouping the costs it's why Germany is abandoning their solar model. Funny how no one ever brings up the simple fact that they don't work on a cost level, and haven't since they were invented. Good luck convincing poor counties that barely can feed their populations to go solar..... Nuclear is our only hope and the world is terrified of it lol.
at the autonomy shareholder meeting Elon said their packs were now rated for a million miles... most ICE cars will need an expensive repair/replacement before 100,000 miles and pretty much all will have something serious go wrong before 200,000 miles. So a Tesla battery is rated for between 5 and 10 times your typical ICE car.
Dominic Adams unless you buy a Toyota. There’s so many well maintained ones running around with 300k-600k miles with the original engine and transmission. That’s why I’m excited about the idea of them making EVs.
The biggest problem with using lithium storage at home is the extreme fire hazard and insurance cost as well as killing your family when your hose explodes!!
I signed up for Second Life about a year ago. Back then, my life was so great that I literally wanted a second one. Absolutely everything was the same... except I could fly.
The best implementation is to standardise EV batteries, so that you go to charging spot and they just replace your batteries. Full power in under 1 minute. In that way you could use more powerful battery packs when you need them for example on a trip, and smaller in the city. This would benefit everyone, companies can lend you power packs, so you only pay for the service, and not for the pack it self, and they deal with the power packs themselves, storing them, recharging and repurposing.This makes EVs increadibly cheap, and keeps them alive for as long as you want !
@@Mike-oz4cv It can only be achieved by an association, or joint venture of a bunch of big automakers in the ev space, and it will be defacto after that. The thing is that, it will be easy to scale, and they will make money from users post purchase.
Sorry, but there's very little chance of that happening. Temperature management (if it's implemented at all... grrrr, Nissan!) is integral to battery packs and implementations vary wildly. Mechanical structure varies wildly. Battery replacement stations would have to have close to a million dollars' worth of ready-to-go packs on-hand for customers. Those are a few of the highlights from the list of reasons why battery-swap won't happen.
@@levenkay4468 it will be an investment for sure, but they could make it so that by purchasing a car you lease a battery so that they can make money of the energy and the pack
@@Mike-oz4cv The Tesla Model S and X packs were designed with that specifically in mind. Tesla trialled it and even ran a battery swap station at Harris Ranch for those travelling between the Bay Area and LA. But nobody liked the hassle of keeping track of batteries. The X hadn't even debuted when the experiment was deemed a failure.
Well, the system around it makes sure the batteries are cared for as best as possible. What I think would be interesting is when supercapacitors get cheap enough, that way the batteries could be charged and discharged even more smoothly.
Apparently there are Tesla's around, used as taxis, that have done over 150,000 miles on the original battery. If they are charged to less than 100% on a regular basis, and 100% less often, they have a huge lifespan.
@@autohmae YES! I had this exact conversation yesterday. Coupling batteries with supercapacitors removes the heavy load damage factor and even further increases the lifespan.
@@richardsolomon5375 the supercapacitor manufactor claimed allows for 2 times as long use of the EV batteries and increasing range... by a lot (I forgot the number). Luckily... Tesla already bought a supercapacitor company
I really don't understand why so many people seem to hate EV's and renewables so much. They make so much sense on so many levels. And particularly with EV's, we're only just at the start of the road with them. Look at how mobile phones have changed since they first appeared 20 years ago. Three years ago people were saying "until it can do 200 miles I'm not interested". Now loads of models do over 200 miles they're saying things like "until it can charge in 5 mins I'm not interested". Soon they'll be charging in a few mins at 350kw as new chargers capable of that rate are already being installed in the UK at least. I wonder what their next red line will be when charging speed is sorted...........
"Socialist son's of a bitch's...". I tell them to deny the socialist agenda. Socialist and some environmental leaders mention our _awesome electric future_ as a ploy to destroy Western civilization's free market economy (that which spawned all this awesome tech in the first place)! And I tell the reds not to deny the science and technology! Of course, the socialist "threat" is also over exaggerated by the fossil fuel industries. It still exists because Greenpeace does NOT want fusion, neither does Paul Ehrlich. Since everyone knows that fusion would be perfect (literally, except for, maybe costs) this proves that they have some other, not so benevolent agenda up their sleeves! What's more, Greenpeace had also accepted money from a fossil fuel company AND routinely compromises large solar and wind projects! Reds will learn of this and say "see, I told you so. If global warming is real, they (environmental leaders and many policy makers) wouldn't act like that". Still, I know that the extra radiative forcing (global warming) is real.
As for running an EV on coal. I like to point out that an ice has ~30% efficiency and a power plant has ~50% And and EV has ~95% So EV even powered by coal is still better then an ice
Don't forget regenerative braking: An EV can effectively put "gas back in its tank" when slowing down, or descending hills. Combustion engines can't do that. If an EV is charged exclusively on coal fired electricity, its equivalent carbon emission per mile is similar to the best hybrids. Throw in any wind, solar, or hydroelectric power, and it's a clear win for EV's!
@@vincentrobinette1507 someone actually did the calc and in a pure coal generation, hybrid are better. Don't forget fuel output is water+CO2 but coal is only CO2
@@danielboro2000 Did the calculations factor in the energy it takes to extract the crude oil, transport it to a refinery, refine it, transport it again to a service station, so you can actually pump it in, and burn it in your engine? I don't have exact numbers, but I do know that in Alberta Canada, it takes as much energy to extract oil from oil shale, as the energy content of the oil itself. Then, you add all the things I mentioned above. Only about half or less, of the emissions from a gallon of gas, are emitted by the car burning it. What you say about water and CO2, is exactly what makes natural gas such a good alternative to coal, for electrical generation. It's not a permanent solution, but it's an excellent transition fuel. When I did my calculations, I found that Hybrids and electrics charged by coal, were pretty darn close. Hybrids may be better, by a very narrow margin, based solely on the emissions from the Hybrid burning the fuel in it's tank, and completely ignoring the cost of getting that gallon of gas out of the ground, and into the car. Remember, Hybrids and electrics BOTH have regenerative braking, which puts them both miles ahead of combustion-only cars.
@@vincentrobinette1507 no. The calc was CO2 emitted by coal VS CO2 emitted by hybrid for the same KM over 5 years. And the margin was not big in favor of the hybrid
@@danielboro2000 so it didn't factor in the cost of producing the gasoline, and, as I predicted, it's pretty close. I forgot to mention, getting the coal out of the ground, and over to the power plant, which may or may not offset the production and distribution cost of the gasoline. Other than that, it sounds about right!( When I say cost, I'm referring to the energy it takes from ground to charge port, or ground to gas cap.
@@tommygunrunner4656 Fun fact, "FUD" in Scots translates to "God Emperor of Mankind, May His Gloriousness shine forever more, we love you, we worship you, lock her up" in English. Very specific translation.
Uremawife Nowdave ... and in the firearms community, it refers to an uneducated gun owner, that has no concept of gun safety... historically, “Elmer Fudd” from old warner brothers cartoons. He routinely shot himself or had accidental discharges in his obsession with killing the “waskally wabbit” Bugs Bunny.
Joe, I have been watching your videos for a long time now, and I just realized just now that somehow I wasnt subscribed to you?!?!?! needless to say I corrected that problem, and of course hit the bell because you my friend are one of my top 3 or 4 channels on youtube. Keep up the great work man! oh and BTW completely agree with your sentiment on LIPOs. It is one of the few positive feedback loops that is actually positive.
10 million second EV batteries could power 100 million homes with solar panels. That would solve the intermittency issue overnight and save tens of billions in infrastructure costs.
As a film and house carpenter, I do have a LOT of experience with battery tools. Back in the day, after YEARS of use, I finally bought some new 9vdc NiCads for my ancient Makita. Since tools changed to Lion's I have yet to need to replace or get new batts. One is getting close, but I bought it in '09, and I use my batteries hard for 10 and 12 hour days. Speaking of '09, I had roomates back then, and one was light fingered. So I labeled my rechargeable AA & AAA batteries used for toys and electronics. I don't know why, but I didn't want the thief to be embarrassed so I made it look like I was more into the Date of the battery. So that is how I know I just recycled some AAA rechargeable Lion's from 2008. [I never caught the thief]
Joe, I know of a PV technology, a nanomaterial that could greatly reduce the number of batteries in EV cars. This material is not on the market yet but will come online soon. Due to its nano characteristics, it is transparent so it can be applied to glass or applied between the paint color and the clear coat on the exterior of the car. This material generates electricity through the entire EM spectrum, not just the visible light spectrum so it generates powers for 12-14 hours instead of today's 6-8 hours. This material generates 31 watts per square foot! That means batteries would only be needed for driving at night so fewer batteries would be required. I am not sure if the inventor wants to come out publically yet, but it could be a topic for one of your shows.
I love how you have an open mind Joe I know you're a Tesla owner and that can slightly bias some towards.. "EV #1 Elon God Gas Bad rawwrrr!" I for one can see your mind frame is not like that lol.
OK, I'll bite. Why do you think a Tesla enthusiast isn't an EV enthusiast? Maybe they just want *decent* , not mediocre competition? Plenty of trash talk towards Tesla, but nothing to back it up, is there? Smh.
I'm as guilty as anybody of this but I try not to fall into the trap of "Tesla good, everybody else bad". I want to see more competition. I just get frustrated when it seems that other car companies don't take EVs seriously.
Great video. I have a 17-year-old (2002) RAV4-EV with 155,000 miles has about 50% of its original range. We still use it around town. We have $1,000's because there's no gasoline, oil, tune-ups, timing belts, air filters, spark plugs, etc etc. Never buying a crappy inkjet printer....I mean gasoline car...again.
Even if EV batteries wore out quickly and were expensive to replace, the low maintenance requirements of EV's vs ICE vehicles more than make up for it. That being said, even the Nissan Leaf with it's infamous battery degradation problem is still perfectly usable for most people and how they commute. Electric cars make too much sense.
Yep, my 2015 Leaf has 50K on it and the battery is still at 95%. What I really like is paying only about $15 a month for the electricity- I put it on the charger twice a week (using the 80-20 rule). And yes, with far less moving parts than an ICE, zero emissions, and super-quiet operation, it all adds up to a great transportation solution for me!
My iPad 2's battery is still going strong - I can still get 12 hours of video usage out of it easily and it charges quickly. Also my iPhone 4s, 5s, and 6s are all going strong too - no battery issues. I never charge anything to 100% and never let it get to 0%, I keep it between 10% and 90% where it is best for the battery.
treating the battery well do extend the lifespan dramatically. Charging to only 80 % almost triples the possible cycles compared to 100 % charges. We have to do this manually with small batteries, but EV batteries are typically automatically charged this way, 100% SOC is never the real 100 % capacity of the EV battery.
What EV detractors also fail to point out that as the electric motor is substantially more efficient than the internal combustion engine, less energy would be consumed over all.
@@leoncintron7810 Whatever source of energy one uses to generate electricity, you need less of it to generate it due to the higher edficiency of the electric motor. Electricity is also very vesatile; it can be generated by numerous different means including wind, solar, tidal, conventional hydro, nuclear, etc.
Tubmaster 5000 that’s not how it works, if I use a combustion engine to turn a generator to make electricity it can’t give me an equal amount of energy as I put in, second law of thermodynamics and all.
@@leoncintron7810 don't use a combustion engine to make your electricity, also if you are using a large gas turbine with a 64% efficiency in combined cycle you are still more efficient in changing that to electricity, transmitting the electricity, charging the battery and running the electric car than using the same fuel in a ICE which is about 20% efficient in turning chemical energy to mechanical energy.
@@leoncintron7810 You can! Wind and Solar do just that, without any transportation cost. Not only is the energy free, it comes free delivery, courtesy of mother nature. Just have your bucket(battery) ready!
A few points: This may now be dated but Nissan was initially looking into getting back those old, degraded battery packs... and found not enough people were exchanging them for new. And *that's* on the older Leafs, which are famous for degradation issues. New cars like most Teslas, Bolts, Konas etc have active battery management. IIRC the last one there has lifetime warranty on the packs (I think they're assuming you'll want a new car within 10 years - most do - as the warranty isn't transferable). I suspect living in an EV, barring breakthroughs and massive range improvements, may be quite a long time indeed. Although there is a concern over the disposition of these batteries eventually, I was just watching the video of a UK RUclipsr 'Have a think' where he addressed the recycling issue. It looks like a lot of people are putting thoughts into this. I suppose we can also to a certain extend legislate some as well, even if that's not popular. One of my favorite pages with respect to "your car runs on coal!" is afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/electric_emissions.html . Breaks down by state what the power mixture looks like, as well as the country as a whole.
Not suitable for long duration loads. They are great for peak loads or regenerative braking to lessen the impacts on traditional battery packs though. China's BYD already has that technology in their buses.
Me and my wife moved off grid about 4 years ago and started out using Trojan T105 deep cycle batteries. Once I found a source that sold retired Nissan leaf batteries about a year ago we took the plunge and its been like night and day as far as the reliability of charge overnight, cloudy days, larger loads etc. I had to change out the charge controllers of course, but I can vouch firsthand that this is a very good use as a battery backup system. There's also the added benefit of the longer lifespan and not having to mess with checking the water levels/electrolyte/hydrogen gas output/corrosion...
Our 2006 Prius with 160,000 miles on it works perfectly. It has performed perfectly the entire time. We live in north Florida and our driving is 50/50. We spend about zero time in traffic , we have to visit other towns to find a traffic jam.
I love my 3rd Nissan Leaf. Leased the first in 2015, bought the second in 2018, wife totalled in the same year, just the front end. Bought the 2019 Nissan Plus a few months ago. Not an investment, you will lose money but have a good smile on your face. Get the tax credit and a discount and its half the price of a Tesla 3 almost. Not quite the acceleration and performance but much better than most internal combustion engines. I have shut down many cars thinking that a 214 horsepower Leaf is slow, it isn't. Go EV!!!!! You won't regret it new or used.
Our 2014 Volt has 50K smooth miles and the range is still 40+....the interesting thing is social. We have a 42 y/o son who refuses to ride much less drive it. People still yell at us because it is to quiet. Folks cannot get past the fact that the engine is a GENERATOR (which gets 33mpg). You get raised eyebrows when you say 50K and 2 oil changes, brakes look new, and "I gotta burn off this gas".
another great and interesting video Joe! I think it would be an interesting idea to start building homes with off grid storage standard (using EV batteries as it seems their cost will be greatly dropping in the coming years) to even out the loads on the power grid and ultimately reduce the cost of power transmission.
@@joescott Joe love your videos. Please do one on the mars project by werhner Von Braun. He named the leader of the mars project "Elon" in this book. And hope you could talk about similar stuff in that videos. Please please make a video. Id love to hear your thoughts. This has really not been popular topic I don't know why. Hope you shed some light.
I have been off grid in my home for years using 160 year old rechargeable battery technology (lead acid). Two reasons keep me from switching to lithium, the cost and uncertainty of implementation. Most appliances today that do not contain transformers in the mains will operate nicely on 100V (the standard voltage in my country), but I am 100% DC. That carries it's own problems such as arcing in switches when turned off so spark arrestors are required on all of them. I watched this video to assist in my motivation to convert to lithium ion.
The future should be thorium and hydrogen, fusion 10-20 years later. No my argument against EVs has been the same since day one, you're trading one finite resource for another. The batteries as they are today are too reliant on extremely polluting mining and in particular rare earth metals. Hydrogen ICE has a 100% renewable recycling cycle. Thorium like EV's is a stopgap but it's an easier problem to resolve over 100,000 years and 10-20 years after that fusion.
every mine has the potential to be hazardous and polluting. Not developing EVs wont stop that. It's not like nuclear reactors are built entirely out of iron and concrete.
You touched on this but I would like to expand your comment. While Thorium has no chance in the western world due to negative connotations of anything with the word "nuclear" in it China is moving ahead full steam on solving safe Thorium reactors. If they succeed and are able to build safe, commodity thorium reactors they will solve their energy crisis in short order. Interestingly it was Thorium that caused a lot of the current issues with rare earth material shortages. Thorium is abundant in any materials being mined for the more exotic rare earths used in high tech manufacturing. The abundance of Thorium as a by product that was both classed as radioactive waste and for which there was no market meant that these mines had to close. China just didn't worry about that and thus cornered the world market and now can control high tech manufacturing involving rare earth materials.
@D Jaquith, Thorium powerstations are far away, best case scenario is 30 years from now. That is too late so we have to focus on batteries now. Driving on hydrogen is hideously inefficient and this isn't solved by thorium. A small portion of cobalt sources is questionable regarding human ethics. Biggest part (85%) is mined properly, although it may still be invasive for the earth. The good thing is that battery manufacturers are all determined to minimise and finally eleminate cobalt from batteries. Lithium mining is mainly done from brine lakes and is not invasive.
Also, electrolyzers and fuel cells also require 'rare earth' matels and wear faster than batteries. Plus, fuel cell cars also require (smaller) lithium ion batteries.
Joe, the advantages of EV are so understated that until you drive and get used to how well they work one simply cannot understand the lifestyle change. I have a Subaru Plug in Hybrid and have driven about 1,000 miles so far, mostly using the battery, and the car has used a mere 10 gallon of gas. The hybrid aspect gives me the safety of knowing that I can go as far as I like and still fill up the gas tank. And the battery has given me the ability to drive around town for about $1.50 per 30 miles equivalent of charging the battery during "Off-Peak" Officially Subaru claim about 19 miles per charge, but with the re-generation ability I am getting about 30 miles on battery alone which is my normal about town diving and I only fill up gas for the longer trips. It is very much a life changing advantage.
Yay more batteries! The most important thing to come out of this whole electric car thing has been the development and increased access to better batteries... For me. Me, personally. The higher-amperage types of the new 20650, 20700, and 21700 batteries blow 18650s out of the water, even the vtc5as, for vaping! That’s right, I said it. *THE* most important thing is that my vaping experience has been moderately improved. :P
Hey joe you should do a doppleganger episode and guest star charlie day. :) We both know thats impossible tho cuz yall the same dude huh bra? Its a conspiracy! This whole office is a ghost town!
I bought a 2001 Honda Insight which was the first hybrid, much to the chagrin of Toyota. I had it for 13 years before it died and after 7 years Honda did a recall on the batteries so each person who purchased one could get a free battery which would have cost something like $4,000. They were willing to do this because the 2000/2001 Honda Insight was almost a prototype and not very many people bought them. They were two seaters that had the same shape as a CRX, small and sporty. Mine was silver and essentially looked like a tiny spaceship. But batteries are a lot better now than in those days. I loved my Insight. It got 55 mpg in the city and about 70 mpg on the highway. If you were really careful about how you drove you could get over 100 mpg. I could gas up in Boulder CO and drive all the way to Topeka KS, NON-STOP, and had a couple of bars of gas leftover!
Toyota hybrid batteries fail completely around 250k miles. Also... What's wrong with nuclear power? Why aren't we using that to bridge the renewable gap.
It's a completely different battery chemistry and a very different use case. Toyota uses NiMH batteries, they are cycled much more frequently and much faster discharged. They also have a far lower energy density.
@@johnmoniz3169 It makes sense to me. I wish I liked a lot of things that are good for me, like exercise and yard work, but they're boring. They just have to be done. Meanwhile, I actually DO like a lot of things that are bad for me...
@@lordchickenhawk Sorry, not the same thing at all. There are no physical hardships nor sensory stimulations in an EV that would prevent one from fulfilling their wish. Just silly really.
Huh. I had never heard of that idea of using old EV batteries for grid storage. Makes total sense, since you don't need nearly as high a performance for grid storage as you do for EVs. I feel more people need to hear about it!
Agreed, most EV batteries will hold up over time. Nissan Leaf batteries on the other hand don’t. Look at any Nissan Leaf with over 50,000 miles. You find a lot of them with over 30% degradation. My Model S is holding up strong at only 2% degradation with 40,000 miles.
FUD lol. Someone said to me 3 years ago not to buy a Prius because if the battery goes it'll cost you 6 grand to replace. Well the battery actually did go after 2 years, but it cost 800 dollars to fix and I saved that much and more in petrol in just one year.
I'm working on reducing the cost of high intensity agriculture and this solves a big problem related to peak smoothing and purchasing as little peak priced energy as possible. While electric cogeneration using natural gas is attractive, it's still wasteful and of course uses fossil fuels. Stationary batteries are an excellent solution but new ones are prohibitively expensive. Problem solved! Thanks!
Car makers have to really look at combining supercapacitors and batteries in EVs. Supercaps offer great advantages, especially in brake regen energy storage efficiency. There was a _super-battery_ that combined the two in one package.
One of the biggest differences between EV batteries and consumer electronics batteries is the usage pattern. A phone or laptop typically starts with just enough battery to get through a day going from 100% charge to 0% (or close to it). You buy a car that has enough capacity for your worst-case scenario (like a road trip) but your average usage is typically much lower than the worst case, so you don't end up stressing out the battery. You can usually keep it closer to the ideal 50% charge. If you use 20% of the battery on a typical day, you can charge it to 60% over night, then when you return home the next evening it will be down to 40%. That reduces the wear on the batteries by an enormous amount.
I also have a 2013 Volt, but only 58,000 miles on it (23,000 on the ICE.) No degradation on it either. When Chevrolet downloaded a battery management update two years ago, the summer “full charge” distance went from 33 to 38 miles. In other words, the 6 yr old battery holds more energy than it used to when I bought it three years ago. That said, the millennium is still young. Time will tell.
In 2015 Dyson employed 400 engineers to work on a solid state battery, claiming an early release of their first EV in 2021. A few commentators suggest that Dyson will initially employ LI batteries, but it is not clear whether or not this is based on statements by Dyson. Either way, I think SS batteries are within 5 years of production, which will easily reduce the weight of current systems by up to 75%, while extending range by a factor of two or three. The CE automobile (outside of exotics) can't survive another ten years.
I have a 2004 Prius that I am STILL driving. That's a 15 year old Hybrid EV. Under ideal conditions I still get > 40mpg. Even in the winter when batteries don't work well I will usually get > 30mpg.
This makes me happy I bought EV grade 18650 cells for my ebike. I'm at 2 years of use and I keep expecting a dramatic drop in range but it hasn't happened yet.
I'm still using 10 Hobbyking multistar 6S lipos after 4 years. Kept within 80%-20% and still going strong, no puffing but capacity down to about 80%. Still good enough.
It might have been on a Transport Evolved video from Nikki several years ago now, that went into whichever Japanese car maker was setting up this after car battery program, it might even have been Nissan, but the problem was that customers just weren't returning old batteries to become power walls fast enough. The darn things were just lasting too long!
In a plant i worked in with 250+ machines all starting as same time, we bought a generator and used the generator for start up to eliminate surge charges.
We have two 2013 Chevy Volts and they go as far on a charge as they ever did. I think these batteries are dependable and GM made sure they were. They put a lot of effort into the Volt as a transition toward totally electric cars. They wanted no lemons in the bunch. They were looking forward to their future reputation in electric propulsion.
*I have a Mercedes B200 CDi 'Sport AMG Line (W246) now 5 Years old and the Battery never fails, it covers up to 74.3 MPG (UK Gallon) and can achieve 142 MPH (Autobahn) It might be viewed as a **_Dirty Diesel_** but at the latest test report was "Emissions too low to Register" - I am acquainted with the Term **_Range Anxiety_** but only ever had this once in France when trying to reach much cheaper fuel in Luxembourg. I applaud the EV Pioneers and may you do well and prosper, however long way to go yet. I guess I might need a new battery in the next two years as all this Stop/Start business takes its inevitable toll.*
My experience with a VW Golf GTE running 60000 km was that it was still getting about 80 % of the original range at that point. *However* GTE is a plugin hybrid so the hard winters here at Finland were helped by the gasoline mainly when the temperatures were below -10 °C and the heating of the cabin was not ideal with batteries. The power intake for heating was over 2,5 kW.
Power input management should be matched by power usage management. We would get way more benefit from limiting peak demand on the grid system. I could imagine a system where every device spoke to your house and asked permission to run right now, a central monitor would temporarily turn off or ask appliances for lower demand for the time the latest one needed it. EG: You cook something in the microwave for 3 minutes, during that time your aircon worked less and the hot water system didn't heat the water as quickly. The house could make sure it's demand didn't exceed a set value. In the US, I'm told you have 200A incoming for a single phase (here in Oz it's between 80 and 100A) and I would think the house should be able to limit totals to less than 100 (50 in Oz) by sequencing.
I just hit 110,000 miles on my 6.5 year old Model S. Original battery is holding great so far, still has 94% of its capacity.
@Adam Nixon
I don’t have it anymore... I upgraded to Model Y. The Model S battery was at 93% capacity when I traded it in with 135k miles.
Thanks for your info very helpful 🙏🏽
@@Jer_Schmidt I wish you'd inform this other guy in another comment I have on here. He doesn't believe me when I tell him how long the batteries last.
How do you umeasure its battery life capacity?
@@debbiewinterton1200 by draining the batteries completely in cycles and then measuring how much charge the battery holds every so often. It simulates years of usage.
Thank you for talking about a subject objectively from every angle. Something I've always appreciated about your channel.
I am very clearly biased toward EVs - I have no illusions about that. :)
But thank you, I do try to put that aside and be objective as possible.
@@joescott Joe love your videos. Please do one on the mars project by werhner Von Braun. He named the leader of the mars project "Elon" in this book. And hope you could talk about similar stuff in that videos. Please please make a video. Id love to hear your thoughts
fieryspy64 : von Braun’s vision is roughly 75 years old now... No question he was brilliant, but he could not have foreseen the tech advancements and breakthroughs we’ve seen since his vision. I think Musk and other visionaries can update that vision to better fit our current technology.
Yes
I have a 2013 Chevy Volt with 110,000 miles and has lost no range. When I bought it my friends said I wouldn't get 20,000 miles from the battereis. Not so.
Give us another update in 5 years.
All has to do with battery maintenance, but you can’t make it last forever...
Chevrolet hiding the fact the battery has lost capacity by restricting it in the first place does not mean the battery has lost capacity overall. Consumer perception does not equal science.
If the vehicle still functions to the datasheet specification, then _the vehicle_ hasn't lost any battery capacity, irrespective of any underlying battery management.
@@MrDavidfuchser A 2010 Volt owner drove over: 350,000 miles in his Volt, which GM asked to examine. GM found no battery degradation and showed the evidence to prove it. One smart thing GM did, as most EV's mfc's do now is, the car only uses 50% of the battery so some degradation likely happens but isn't seen by the owner and doesn't affect range. I own a '12 Volt with ~80k miles on it and see no batt. degradation. We charge and drive it, every day, and have saved thousands from buying gasoline as we charge it with our solar panels, for free.
As a automotive technician who changes EV batteries on a semi regular basis, I can tell you that 90% of the time the old batteries are sent off for reconditioning. And most of the “new” batteries we install are remanufactured.
so when I buy a new one EV car. is that mean my car EV Battery not a new one????
The battery pack is not a black box...there are lots of different parts and connections that can fail. Most of the bitsy little LiIon cells inside may be good as new. I think its positive news that the packs can be maintained and repaired.
@@aps-c1766 No, it just means the replacement battery you received under warranty was remanufactured. This is true of many automotive parts replaced under warranty or insurance in the case of an accident.
@@aps-c1766 It should mean they redid EVERY battery cell,not just the dead ones like they do for $500 aftermarket batteries. But thats my guess...the old ones could still be years old.
This also counters the argument that Lithium is environmentally bad. They are being recycled.
Even if it is not economicaly viable to recycle the batteries, we should still take care of our mess
I think you really need to have a balanced look at what the cost is of "taking care of the mess" vs the cost of "dumping it into a hole in the ground and burying it all". It could be that the dump actually has a better overall environmental impact. If the hazard of that impact is local, known, low and the reduce cost means more people are buying cheaper EV's/using solar and using less fossils... then I'd say dump away.
@@MarkTarsis well, I guess if you could dump it in a way that doesn't impact the envirement... I would say store them instead of dumping. Perhaps we mean the same thing but when using the word dumping, it doesn't seem that great.
I'm not one of these "save the trees", "don't burn gas", "CO2 is killing us", etc, people, but seriously, if you have to process it from raw materials into something to use, recycle the damn thing whether it's cheaper to mine or not, recycle it.
Paper rots, don't really care. Metal rusts, but it is continuously mined, recycle it. Lithium is a pain in the ass, recycle it.
Though to be fair, a lot of the places we mine for all of this could very well be the landfill of a previous civilization. Planet is old, for all we know we could be the 20th time that humans have gotten to this level of tech.
@@MarkTarsis It can always be dug up later, if a recycling program makes it economical to do so. No matter what, make sure you can retrieve it later.
Taking care of the mess means making sure it could be retrieved later, if a recycling program comes along, that would make it economical. That solves 2 problems: It keeps toxic chemicals out of the ground water, and, it's a future source of materials, to make replacement batteries.
I have a BoltEV that I charge off my 10kW solar system. The key trick that makes it work is because my Utility has me on a time of use rate, I charge the car at the time of day when my system is producing excess energy. I produce about half my energy during the afternoons when most of my usage is the rest of the day. Without the car charging the on-peak credit justs build up and the utility pays me a pittance for it at the end of of the year. By charging the car with my excess generation, I'm paying next to nothing to "fuel" my traveling. The car's initial cost was higher of course, but don't get me started on how much you save in maintenance costs with a BEV. And yes, someday, when the battery pack is worn out, and I can't beat you off the line any more, it will become incorporated into my storage-ready solar system.
You're woke Greg, we salute you.
My cousin bought his wife a Chevy bolt back in April. They have the free nights and weekends with NEC retail. His wife just uses the standard 110 plug, because the town is only 15 square miles and she doesn't drive that far on any given day. My cousins wife is a teacher at the school their kids attend, so she doesn't have to drive extra miles to get them to school and back every day.
Sounds great, I'm sure someone will try to poop on it.
Yes...you charge your car during the day and drive it at night...we all believe that.
@@pooltuna I have afternoon peak power that goes begging so charge the car then and do my driving in the mornings. My office is just a block from home so it motivates me to walk to work after lunch to be able to stick it to the utility.
other people on thursday mornings: hell yeah tomorrow is friday
me on thursday mornings: hell yeah it's random thursdays with joe scott
Bruh, everyone knows it's Arthursday today
@@feynstein1004 Isn't/wasn't Arthur's day near the end of September?
Don't think I can compete with Isaac.
EU Bike Dude - No. Arthursday (SFIA) is every Thursday.
@@joescott Joe love your videos. Please do one on the mars project by werhner Von Braun. He named the leader of the mars project "Elon" in this book. And hope you could talk about similar stuff in that videos. Please please make a video. Id love to hear your thoughts. This has really not been popular topic I don't know why. Hope you shed some light.
80000km on my ev, stil over 99% of the battery. Saved 8000$ in gas so far too
"bUt ThE rAnGe iS sO sHoRt!"
What EV do you have ?
Chevy bolt
@@clout13r nice choice of an EV. It's a cute little hatchback!
Not going to lie, i find the model 3 sexier but it wasnt available in 2017
6.5 year Nissan Leaf owner here, I have the battery tested every year and still at 95%+ capacity. Has about 50k miles now.
You seem like one of the lucky ones.
50k? That's less then 8k a year. You are barely using your car, so no surprise that the battery is in good condition.
degradation to leaf batteries happens in cold and hot climates the most. Because they simply cheaped out on battery thermal management.
@@j.p.ijsblok5304 That's why I mentioned it. But you do have to factor age into the equation. Batteries will degrade over time.
Why do you have to get it tested? Shouldn’t the built-in battery management circuit already do that for you all the time?
I work for the World Bank on rural electrification in developing countries -- with a focus on renewable energy powered or hybrid RE/diesel mini grids. We're starting to see companies employing second life EV batteries in this market as well.
Found you through the Our Ludicrous Future Podcast and just went through all your EV related videos. Thanks for some new “fuel” lol
I've been watching Joe for a few years please check out his entire catalogue, hes got great insight on multiple topics not just EV/Solar related!
@@iirossii2005 Oh yeah I know. I've already seen a few of his other videos. It's just that I'm mainly interested in EVs and thought it's a fun coincidence that just as I'm through his EV videos he uploads a new one.
Sure there's no charge,
Joe covers subjects with a lot of potential.
(I can go on)
I see what you did there. ;)
@@joescott Joe love your videos. Please do one on the mars project by werhner Von Braun. He named the leader of the mars project "Elon" in this book. And hope you could talk about similar stuff in that videos. Please please make a video. Id love to hear your thoughts
My dad actually bought a battery pack from a wrecked Tesla. He's using it as a battery back up at a family cabin
@@bosstowndynamics5488 Same thing can be found with the Leaf and I'm sure most other battery packs. To create a single huge pack could be to sensitive to a single failed cell.
That would be great to get grandparent hand-me-downs; and instead of antique watches, you get your grandpa's EV battery.
The guy and his team who invented lithium-ion batteries in the first place, has invented a new battery with 21k charge cycles that actually improves over the first few hundred charge cycles.
Sounds too good to be true but guy has worked on batteries for like 30+ years and is highly respected so you'd think that he's trustworthy.
spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/energy/environment/a-glass-battery-that-keeps-getting-better
so hand-me-down batteries might basically become real lol
John B,. Goodenough. Total legend.
@@iwiffitthitotonacc4673 if you are referring to John Goodenough, who is generally credited as the father of Li-Ion batteries, he did not invent this new glass battery he is presently working on. He was brought into the project to make improvements and help develop it for production. Just to give credit where it's due, it was invented by Maria Braga.
@@johnmoniz3169 Yeah, but women never get credit for anything. Way to go John!
@@SummitSummit Women never get credit because, for reasons unknown, men refuse to recognize their achievements. Maybe insecurity? Regardless, women have done and continue to do outstanding work. The credit for the glass battery goes clearly to Maria H. Braga. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Helena_Braga#Research
Lots of people are here screaming about the cost of EV battery replacement seem to forget about the constant stream of maintenance and repairs for infernal combustion cars; tuneups, oil changes, water pumps, belts, hoses, alternators- even the battery! The incremental cost isn't as much as most think at first blush, far from it.
very true stikk. I had a manager of a ford repair shop at a ford dealership in SC tell me that they net WAY more profit from fixing cars than they do selling new ones.
I bought my 2013 Nissan leaf used for about seven grand in 2016. It still has 83% of its battery capacity, and when it comes time to replace it, a new battery pack from Nissan is $5,500. Labor is about $500, and I just replaced the tires for about $500. The new battery pack is supposedly better than OEM, which has lasted six years so far, so I figure it ought to be good for at least another six. How many decent used cars will get you through 12 years for $13,500?
Do you watch jehugarcia on RUclips? He has a video explaining how Chinese companies are buying old battery packs from electric cars and recycling them. Apparently the cells don't wear out at the same rate and some of them are basically like new when they disassemble the pack. They just basically repackage and resell those.
some of us need a real car that can be refueled in minutes and travel 450 miles between fill ups...but you enjoy your toy.
@@pooltuna It looks like he is enjoying it. And it probably costs him about a third (or less) of the cost of an i.c. car to run..... Surely you have to sleep Bobby? That's when EV owners charge up....usually at rates that are around a third of the daytime cost. By the way Bobby, the cost of gasoline/petrol will begin to climb once EV's begin to take a much larger share of the new car market - EV's are already taking 7% of the new car market in the UK - and once we reach the tipping point where electric is outselling I.C. (estimated to be in around 5 to 7 years) then it will begin to be less viable for the big oil giants to extract and refine oil for a shrinking market. The cost at the pumps will surely rocket, because they'll want to keep on reeling in the mega profits they've always been used to. I don't know what the situation is in other parts of the World, but here in the UK both of the big players in the oil game - Shell and BP - have each bought EV Charge Networks. Seems like they know what's coming? Both companies are already installing EV chargers on their petrol forecourts......
P.S. The latest generation of electric cars - with ranges of around 400+ miles - are in the pipeline, and should hit the market in 12 to 18 months. And to make these cars more viable and practical, higher rate chargers are becoming more common here in the UK. I haven't seen one my self (I don't own a Tesla!) but Tesla's Supercharger network can add 75 miles of range for every five minutes it is connected to the car. So Bobby, by the time you've stopped for a break, taken a leak and had a coffee, you could have added 200 miles of range. Stating to make more sense now maybe?
Joe your conclusion about batteries is already coming true, namely recycled cells (properly processed ones) are only a few % different than just buying new old stock (older batteries designs / chemistry).
At which point it will only make any sense if the battery packs are semi standardised so they can be reused as it and don't require remanufaturing.
e.g. you take a tesla battery module, stand it up against a wall and plug it in.
If you have to split the pack to make it sutable for reuse then the costs and effort vs just getting some new items is getting very questionable.
There is a lot of room mind you to improve the reuse side of batteries but then you are bumping into the time limit on battery tech and the fact as you say batteries are getting better and better.
My biggest thing with regards to reuse of the cells for energy storage though, is that there are far far better options for energy storage for gird tie use applications than lithium cell based solutions.
Liquid batteries spring to mind as weights not an issue, less nasties, less volotile etc.
It would make quite an interesting video to cover TBH.
But the whole energy market is going to change so much in the next ten years that nobody will recognise it within a decade.
Good points.
@@joescott Joe love your videos. Please do one on the mars project by werhner Von Braun. He named the leader of the mars project "Elon" in this book. And hope you could talk about similar stuff in that videos. Please please make a video. Id love to hear your thoughts. This has really not been popular topic I don't know why. Hope you shed some light.
"My biggest thing with regards to reuse of the cells for energy storage though, is that there are far far better options for energy storage for gird tie use applications than lithium cell based solutions." With these types of statements I am reminded of the following from the person who developed the early warning radar for Britain. "Give them the third best to go on with; the second best comes too late, the best never comes." I keep hearing of these claims for better options for grid energy storage yet when it actually comes to getting something in production and service, Lithium Energy Storage keeps winning out.
I don't know about total electric cars but as a Ford service advisor since 2004, I've never seen a hybrid battery failure
saw a few prius batteries get replaced in my time at toyota, but all of them had at least 200k miles on them (one had almost *400k*). all of them still drove, but were way down on power since it was only getting power from the little gas engine.
@@Gibson99
I filled in over at our Honda store for 6 months. We had battery failures every single day. 90% of them were under warranty, but still it was terrible.
@@rays7437 If they were under warranty, that sounds more like a manufacturing/design fault, not a general problem with EV batteries per se
@@rays7437 What electric Honda vehicle would you be talking about?
@@TaiViinikka
Hybrids
Thanks for this video Joe.
Everybody is talking about EVs nowadays, but not enough people talk about the lifecycle of the batteries with hard facts and data.
How long a car can keep going without major refurbishment (and what happens then) is an important part of the puzzle of deciding between ICE or EV.
There are a lot less moving parts in an EV, so theoretically it is cheaper to maintain. One problem currently is that there are not many independent places to repair an EV, so you can get taken to the cleaners by the official garages. Also there are limited third party replacement parts.
@@grier2593 like $10k to fix a fender bender on a Tesla. TFL thrifty 3.
10 yr life is ridiculous, I have a 1990 f150 with 575k miles and the only major work has been $600 in clutches and get 25 mpg city and hwy. Also have a 94 crown vic that's only had ball joints replaced.
10 yr life on EVs mean only salvage yard might attempt the used market and that's if they want to worry with the hazmat issues.
Now yes given the price of most EVs the owners don't care about 10yr life, but for us working stiffs this is another reason they don't make sense. IE the average age of vehicles in US is 11yrs.
@@bowez9 yeah exactly and one of the reasons I would not buy a Tesla in the next few years, but I think its more due to low volumes of EV's out on the road than anything specific to an EV technology.
But like you said the first owner is only bothered about the costs in the first few years, before the sell them on.
ICE producers want to scare you! My IONIQ has 140K km on it and has still 100 % SOH
An IONIQ is not an EV...it's a hybrid with nickel metal hydride batteries...completely different from the lithium based batteries used in EV's.
EV batteries can be recharged around 10,000 times...given a range of 200 miles they will last around 150,000 miles when corrected for degradation over the course of the ten years it takes the average driver to get to that mileage at the average rate of 15k miles per year.
Recycling lithium is no picnic and the cost of a new battery will remain around 75% of the price of the vehicle because lithium actually is a scarce resource, unlike fossil fuels, so increased demand cannot be met will expanding supply.
We'll save the discussion of unsustainable demand on the electricity distribution grid and greater lifetime carbon emissions created by EV's compared to ICE's due to the manufacture of lithium batteries and the electricity needed to charge them for a future date.
Rule of thumb...if the popular media says it, IT'S A LIE!!!
BobbyG There is an Ioniq EV, so this may be what Paul Jansen is referring to. The Ioniq comes in 3 power trains Hybrid, Plug in hybrid and Pure EV.
I was like "wait did he forget the intro?" And then no, just popped up suddenly at 2:07
These cold opens are getting so cold you're not sure if they'll open
I have a friend who's been running his house on fork lift batteries for over 20 years. Charges the batteries with wind and solar. It powers his house and his 3 phase machine shop.
It's nice to see the world is kinda catching up.
3 phase motors at a machine shop ? doubt it
blauschuh EASILY DONE WITH A STEP UP BOX.
on-site power generation & storage makes ALOT more sense. the 'grid'... simply put... wastes ALOT of power. if you don't believe it- get some 4' long fluorescent tubes. go stand under one of those HUGE 8-wire 107,000v transmission lines at night, hold the fluorescent up over your head. it will light up from the e.m. field being transmitted... and that's just in the one little tiny spot that you're standing. that e.m. field ciricles that line set in a 70' radius that spans the ENTIRE LENGTH of the transmission line. for every 1000 feet of developed line-set, you could power a tiny house apartment off that e.m. field.
Just wanna point out:
Even if your EV DOES run purely off of a coal plant, it still puts out about half the pollutants and carbon per mile that an ICE car does, because a power plant is far more efficient at converting carbon to motion than an ICE is.
So yeah, still cleaner than an ICE car
When my iPad is at the end of its useful life, I just use it plugged in all the time. When my tesla battery is worn out I'll just use it plugged in with a long cord :)
/walks up to the register at Walmart with 20x 100ft long cords, 10x 50ft cords, 10x 25ft cords, 20x 6ft cords and a box of earplugs.
"Visiting the in-laws for Christmas."
Nice video title. I almost clicked on a video named "One Weird Trick for Increased EV Battery Longevity", but yours sunk its hooks into me more.
I have solar panels on all my southern facing awnings, and have cut my "carbon footprint" substantially. Repurposing E.V. batteries sounds like a good idea.
I went through 2 batteries in my Leaf in 100k miles, passed it on to somebody with lower range needs, and hope they can get at least 50k more out of it. After that, I'd love to think the battery either gets recycled to raw materials, or repurposed.
Here's some facts for people who doubt ev's. Tesla uses 18650 batteries in a series and parallel configuration to achieve the desired voltage and storage capacity (based on how much they can fit into the vehicle and current battery technology). Now, even though the p100d uses very powerful and current hungry electric motors, they still do not draw enough amperage to cause much damage to the battery pack(s). Amperage and heat is what drains and wears out a battery the fastest. Luckily, Elon was smart enough to not only make the battery pack(s) so the voltage and amperage capabilities exceed the draw of the electric motor, but he added a liquid cooling system. I saw a study done to where they tested a p85d by draining the batteries enough times to simulate a 25 year lifespan. Now, after simulation, the batteries retained 83% charge capacity. Ev's are the future.
Wanna buy a six pack of Brooklyn bridges???
If glass electrolyte batteries become commercially viable, the ICE era is over.
@@truthsocialmedia or if Samsung releases their graphene tech they acquired from that teenage girl. That will change the world forever.
You can simulate all kinds of things. Proof is in the pudding.
@@zironemegeaz well the same thing has been seen with vaping. Guys that have box mods with huge lipos (like mine, 4s 2800mah) that do not even get close to the amperage rating of the lipo cell have been seeing their batteries lasting forever. Even after over a year, I still have 99% capacity on mine and I use this fucker every day. Draining the cells quickly is what kills them the fastest.
Great video. I've seen some great DIY EV builds but the costly part is always the battery packs (even deep-cycle gel batteries are costly) - good to hear that they're likely to get significantly cheaper soon as it will put decent Lithium power packs within reach of those working with a tight budget.
In Finland there is already a company that can recycle 80% of the lithium from those batteries. Thats dope
Recycling or just dumping it to some third world countries? LOL
I came across your channel mostly by accident, which seems to be the way I find anything really awesome on youtube. I was looking for information on Quantum Computers. I love these video's, very informative. Thanks for doing them...
1:55 - Are they seriously trying to compare the carbon-footprint of an EV battery being disposed of after a decade or more to the constant spewing of exhaust from gas cars? 🤨 🤦 Do they say that with a straight face? 🤔
Yes they do.
It may sound ridiculous, but until the last 20 years producing solar cells took more energy than they would produce during their operational lifespans. Further, batteries never put out as much energy as you put in (resistive losses, and some internal leakage), so depending on how long they last before reprocessing, the energy cost _can_ be higher.
Of course, the only one that really matters is that they're too expensive so far for the developing markets (because the developing markets _will not_ agree to wait a century for the cost to fall), but that's an entry in the "multiple options are needed" field, instead of a reason to not use the batteries.
@@absalomdraconis you hit the nail on the head but forgot to mention that decades after integration they still cannot pay for themselves from a governmental level. What most people don't realize is that solar especially have been using governments to front the bills for research, dev, and infrastructure except their energy production isn't above recouping the costs it's why Germany is abandoning their solar model. Funny how no one ever brings up the simple fact that they don't work on a cost level, and haven't since they were invented.
Good luck convincing poor counties that barely can feed their populations to go solar.....
Nuclear is our only hope and the world is terrified of it lol.
Fact resource: solarcraft.com/solar-energy-myths-facts/
Jared Maddox : power lines never deliver as much energy as you put into them...line loss. There is no 100% efficient energy delivery system to date.
at the autonomy shareholder meeting Elon said their packs were now rated for a million miles... most ICE cars will need an expensive repair/replacement before 100,000 miles and pretty much all will have something serious go wrong before 200,000 miles. So a Tesla battery is rated for between 5 and 10 times your typical ICE car.
Dominic Adams unless you buy a Toyota. There’s so many well maintained ones running around with 300k-600k miles with the original engine and transmission.
That’s why I’m excited about the idea of them making EVs.
That is why a Tesla Model 3 is less expensive over it's life than a free new ICE vehicle.
Joe "King of the Pregnant Pause" Scott
You mean
"Of
the pregnant pause"?
I don't know what you're talking
about.
@Felix Courtney i could explain
but then it wouldn't be funny.
The biggest problem with using lithium storage at home is the extreme fire hazard and insurance cost as well as killing your family when your hose explodes!!
I'm saving my money for the upcoming fusion powered car.
It shouldn't be too long before it's available...
Reth Tard . Hope so, but don’t hold your breath !
I want a fusion powered motorcycle.
@@eubikedude I made a fusion powered ebike - it has 400W of solar panels.
Unfortunately local fusion power makes lots of neutrons and will kill you.
Its just 10 years away :)
It's _still_ just 10 years away.
I signed up for Second Life about a year ago. Back then, my life was so great that I literally wanted a second one. Absolutely everything was the same... except I could fly.
Nice guitar
The best implementation is to standardise EV batteries, so that you go to charging spot and they just replace your batteries.
Full power in under 1 minute. In that way you could use more powerful battery packs when you need them for example on a trip, and smaller in the city. This would benefit everyone, companies can lend you power packs, so you only pay for the service, and not for the pack it self, and they deal with the power packs themselves, storing them, recharging and repurposing.This makes EVs increadibly cheap, and keeps them alive for as long as you want !
Unfortunately none of the big car makers seem to make an effort in that regard.
@@Mike-oz4cv It can only be achieved by an association, or joint venture of a bunch of big automakers in the ev space, and it will be defacto after that.
The thing is that, it will be easy to scale, and they will make money from users post purchase.
Sorry, but there's very little chance of that happening. Temperature management (if it's implemented at all... grrrr, Nissan!) is integral to battery packs and implementations vary wildly. Mechanical structure varies wildly. Battery replacement stations would have to have close to a million dollars' worth of ready-to-go packs on-hand for customers. Those are a few of the highlights from the list of reasons why battery-swap won't happen.
@@levenkay4468 it will be an investment for sure, but they could make it so that by purchasing a car you lease a battery so that they can make money of the energy and the pack
@@Mike-oz4cv The Tesla Model S and X packs were designed with that specifically in mind. Tesla trialled it and even ran a battery swap station at Harris Ranch for those travelling between the Bay Area and LA. But nobody liked the hassle of keeping track of batteries. The X hadn't even debuted when the experiment was deemed a failure.
Brilliant video Joe, as always. Really important information for folks considering a new EV. Thanks for all your great work! :-)
FIRST! But seriously, tesla cells are bad ass, they last and last and last.
Well, the system around it makes sure the batteries are cared for as best as possible.
What I think would be interesting is when supercapacitors get cheap enough, that way the batteries could be charged and discharged even more smoothly.
Apparently there are Tesla's around, used as taxis, that have done over 150,000 miles on the original battery. If they are charged to less than 100% on a regular basis, and 100% less often, they have a huge lifespan.
@@autohmae YES! I had this exact conversation yesterday. Coupling batteries with supercapacitors removes the heavy load damage factor and even further increases the lifespan.
@@richardsolomon5375 the supercapacitor manufactor claimed allows for 2 times as long use of the EV batteries and increasing range... by a lot (I forgot the number).
Luckily... Tesla already bought a supercapacitor company
I think you got the slogans mixed up, that's not from Tesla.
I really don't understand why so many people seem to hate EV's and renewables so much. They make so much sense on so many levels.
And particularly with EV's, we're only just at the start of the road with them. Look at how mobile phones have changed since they first appeared 20 years ago. Three years ago people were saying "until it can do 200 miles I'm not interested". Now loads of models do over 200 miles they're saying things like "until it can charge in 5 mins I'm not interested". Soon they'll be charging in a few mins at 350kw as new chargers capable of that rate are already being installed in the UK at least. I wonder what their next red line will be when charging speed is sorted...........
"Socialist son's of a bitch's...". I tell them to deny the socialist agenda. Socialist and some environmental leaders mention our _awesome electric future_ as a ploy to destroy Western civilization's free market economy (that which spawned all this awesome tech in the first place)! And I tell the reds not to deny the science and technology!
Of course, the socialist "threat" is also over exaggerated by the fossil fuel industries. It still exists because Greenpeace does NOT want fusion, neither does Paul Ehrlich. Since everyone knows that fusion would be perfect (literally, except for, maybe costs) this proves that they have some other, not so benevolent agenda up their sleeves!
What's more, Greenpeace had also accepted money from a fossil fuel company AND routinely compromises large solar and wind projects!
Reds will learn of this and say "see, I told you so. If global warming is real, they (environmental leaders and many policy makers) wouldn't act like that". Still, I know that the extra radiative forcing (global warming) is real.
As for running an EV on coal.
I like to point out that an ice has ~30% efficiency and a power plant has ~50%
And and EV has ~95%
So EV even powered by coal is still better then an ice
Don't forget regenerative braking: An EV can effectively put "gas back in its tank" when slowing down, or descending hills. Combustion engines can't do that. If an EV is charged exclusively on coal fired electricity, its equivalent carbon emission per mile is similar to the best hybrids. Throw in any wind, solar, or hydroelectric power, and it's a clear win for EV's!
@@vincentrobinette1507 someone actually did the calc and in a pure coal generation, hybrid are better. Don't forget fuel output is water+CO2 but coal is only CO2
@@danielboro2000 Did the calculations factor in the energy it takes to extract the crude oil, transport it to a refinery, refine it, transport it again to a service station, so you can actually pump it in, and burn it in your engine? I don't have exact numbers, but I do know that in Alberta Canada, it takes as much energy to extract oil from oil shale, as the energy content of the oil itself. Then, you add all the things I mentioned above. Only about half or less, of the emissions from a gallon of gas, are emitted by the car burning it.
What you say about water and CO2, is exactly what makes natural gas such a good alternative to coal, for electrical generation. It's not a permanent solution, but it's an excellent transition fuel.
When I did my calculations, I found that Hybrids and electrics charged by coal, were pretty darn close. Hybrids may be better, by a very narrow margin, based solely on the emissions from the Hybrid burning the fuel in it's tank, and completely ignoring the cost of getting that gallon of gas out of the ground, and into the car. Remember, Hybrids and electrics BOTH have regenerative braking, which puts them both miles ahead of combustion-only cars.
@@vincentrobinette1507 no. The calc was CO2 emitted by coal VS CO2 emitted by hybrid for the same KM over 5 years. And the margin was not big in favor of the hybrid
@@danielboro2000 so it didn't factor in the cost of producing the gasoline, and, as I predicted, it's pretty close. I forgot to mention, getting the coal out of the ground, and over to the power plant, which may or may not offset the production and distribution cost of the gasoline. Other than that, it sounds about right!( When I say cost, I'm referring to the energy it takes from ground to charge port, or ground to gas cap.
THIS TOPIC NEEDS MORE ATTENTION!!!!!! thank you Joe for clearing up the FUD, and yes you still are my favorite science communicator, Awesome work!!!!
Fud means something completely different here in Scotland.
I presume it can be related to Donald trump?
Roger Starkey it most certainly can.
Soooo it means greatest president of all time?
@@tommygunrunner4656 Fun fact, "FUD" in Scots translates to "God Emperor of Mankind, May His Gloriousness shine forever more, we love you, we worship you, lock her up" in English. Very specific translation.
Uremawife Nowdave ... and in the firearms community, it refers to an uneducated gun owner, that has no concept of gun safety... historically, “Elmer Fudd” from old warner brothers cartoons. He routinely shot himself or had accidental discharges in his obsession with killing the “waskally wabbit” Bugs Bunny.
Joe, I have been watching your videos for a long time now, and I just realized just now that somehow I wasnt subscribed to you?!?!?! needless to say I corrected that problem, and of course hit the bell because you my friend are one of my top 3 or 4 channels on youtube. Keep up the great work man! oh and BTW completely agree with your sentiment on LIPOs. It is one of the few positive feedback loops that is actually positive.
10 million second EV batteries could power 100 million homes with solar panels.
That would solve the intermittency issue overnight and save tens of billions in infrastructure costs.
@70 Series Tires 10 sqm (1-2 kWh) per house * 100 million = 1,000 sq km or 0.01% of the US could power most homes.
As a film and house carpenter, I do have a LOT of experience with battery tools. Back in the day, after YEARS of use, I finally bought some new 9vdc NiCads for my ancient Makita. Since tools changed to Lion's I have yet to need to replace or get new batts. One is getting close, but I bought it in '09, and I use my batteries hard for 10 and 12 hour days.
Speaking of '09, I had roomates back then, and one was light fingered. So I labeled my rechargeable AA & AAA batteries used for toys and electronics. I don't know why, but I didn't want the thief to be embarrassed so I made it look like I was more into the Date of the battery. So that is how I know I just recycled some AAA rechargeable Lion's from 2008. [I never caught the thief]
When Rocket starts stealing our batteries, that's when they are good.
Harbulary batteries.
Joe, I know of a PV technology, a nanomaterial that could greatly reduce the number of batteries in EV cars. This material is not on the market yet but will come online soon. Due to its nano characteristics, it is transparent so it can be applied to glass or applied between the paint color and the clear coat on the exterior of the car. This material generates electricity through the entire EM spectrum, not just the visible light spectrum so it generates powers for 12-14 hours instead of today's 6-8 hours. This material generates 31 watts per square foot! That means batteries would only be needed for driving at night so fewer batteries would be required. I am not sure if the inventor wants to come out publically yet, but it could be a topic for one of your shows.
I love how you have an open mind Joe I know you're a Tesla owner and that can slightly bias some towards.. "EV #1 Elon God Gas Bad rawwrrr!" I for one can see your mind frame is not like that lol.
OK, I'll bite.
Why do you think a Tesla enthusiast isn't an EV enthusiast?
Maybe they just want *decent* , not mediocre competition?
Plenty of trash talk towards Tesla, but nothing to back it up, is there?
Smh.
I'm as guilty as anybody of this but I try not to fall into the trap of "Tesla good, everybody else bad". I want to see more competition. I just get frustrated when it seems that other car companies don't take EVs seriously.
Great video. I have a 17-year-old (2002) RAV4-EV with 155,000 miles has about 50% of its original range. We still use it around town. We have $1,000's because there's no gasoline, oil, tune-ups, timing belts, air filters, spark plugs, etc etc. Never buying a crappy inkjet printer....I mean gasoline car...again.
Even if EV batteries wore out quickly and were expensive to replace, the low maintenance requirements of EV's vs ICE vehicles more than make up for it. That being said, even the Nissan Leaf with it's infamous battery degradation problem is still perfectly usable for most people and how they commute. Electric cars make too much sense.
Yep, my 2015 Leaf has 50K on it and the battery is still at 95%. What I really like is paying only about $15 a month for the electricity- I put it on the charger twice a week (using the 80-20 rule). And yes, with far less moving parts than an ICE, zero emissions, and super-quiet operation, it all adds up to a great transportation solution for me!
My iPad 2's battery is still going strong - I can still get 12 hours of video usage out of it easily and it charges quickly. Also my iPhone 4s, 5s, and 6s are all going strong too - no battery issues. I never charge anything to 100% and never let it get to 0%, I keep it between 10% and 90% where it is best for the battery.
treating the battery well do extend the lifespan dramatically. Charging to only 80 % almost triples the possible cycles compared to 100 % charges. We have to do this manually with small batteries, but EV batteries are typically automatically charged this way, 100% SOC is never the real 100 % capacity of the EV battery.
What EV detractors also fail to point out that as the electric motor is substantially more efficient than the internal combustion engine, less energy would be consumed over all.
But what engine do you use to make the energy for the electric motor? We can’t mine electricity.
@@leoncintron7810 Whatever source of energy one uses to generate electricity, you need less of it to generate it due to the higher edficiency of the electric motor. Electricity is also very vesatile; it can be generated by numerous different means including wind, solar, tidal, conventional hydro, nuclear, etc.
Tubmaster 5000 that’s not how it works, if I use a combustion engine to turn a generator to make electricity it can’t give me an equal amount of energy as I put in, second law of thermodynamics and all.
@@leoncintron7810 don't use a combustion engine to make your electricity, also if you are using a large gas turbine with a 64% efficiency in combined cycle you are still more efficient in changing that to electricity, transmitting the electricity, charging the battery and running the electric car than using the same fuel in a ICE which is about 20% efficient in turning chemical energy to mechanical energy.
@@leoncintron7810 You can! Wind and Solar do just that, without any transportation cost. Not only is the energy free, it comes free delivery, courtesy of mother nature. Just have your bucket(battery) ready!
A few points:
This may now be dated but Nissan was initially looking into getting back those old, degraded battery packs... and found not enough people were exchanging them for new.
And *that's* on the older Leafs, which are famous for degradation issues. New cars like most Teslas, Bolts, Konas etc have active battery management. IIRC the last one there has lifetime warranty on the packs (I think they're assuming you'll want a new car within 10 years - most do - as the warranty isn't transferable). I suspect living in an EV, barring breakthroughs and massive range improvements, may be quite a long time indeed.
Although there is a concern over the disposition of these batteries eventually, I was just watching the video of a UK RUclipsr 'Have a think' where he addressed the recycling issue. It looks like a lot of people are putting thoughts into this. I suppose we can also to a certain extend legislate some as well, even if that's not popular.
One of my favorite pages with respect to "your car runs on coal!" is afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/electric_emissions.html . Breaks down by state what the power mixture looks like, as well as the country as a whole.
Graphene super capacitors are supposed to be a big deal in competition with metal batteries. Faster charging and longer lasting.
Not suitable for long duration loads. They are great for peak loads or regenerative braking to lessen the impacts on traditional battery packs though. China's BYD already has that technology in their buses.
Me and my wife moved off grid about 4 years ago and started out using Trojan T105 deep cycle batteries. Once I found a source that sold retired Nissan leaf batteries about a year ago we took the plunge and its been like night and day as far as the reliability of charge overnight, cloudy days, larger loads etc. I had to change out the charge controllers of course, but I can vouch firsthand that this is a very good use as a battery backup system. There's also the added benefit of the longer lifespan and not having to mess with checking the water levels/electrolyte/hydrogen gas output/corrosion...
Cool... I've been driving so fast in my S P100DL so my guilt couldn't catch up!
So now you say I can slow down?
Lol... no.
hahahahahahaha... funny... watch out for stationary objects, hahaha
🔥
Our 2006 Prius with 160,000 miles on it works perfectly. It has performed perfectly the entire time. We live in north Florida and our driving is 50/50. We spend about zero time in traffic , we have to visit other towns to find a traffic jam.
EV for life!
Well, for the life of the battery anyway xD
I love my 3rd Nissan Leaf. Leased the first in 2015, bought the second in 2018, wife totalled in the same year, just the front end. Bought the 2019 Nissan Plus a few months ago. Not an investment, you will lose money but have a good smile on your face. Get the tax credit and a discount and its half the price of a Tesla 3 almost. Not quite the acceleration and performance but much better than most internal combustion engines. I have shut down many cars thinking that a 214 horsepower Leaf is slow, it isn't. Go EV!!!!! You won't regret it new or used.
Our 2014 Volt has 50K smooth miles and the range is still 40+....the interesting thing is social. We have a 42 y/o son who refuses to ride much less drive it. People still yell at us because it is to quiet. Folks cannot get past the fact that the engine is a GENERATOR (which gets 33mpg). You get raised eyebrows when you say 50K and 2 oil changes, brakes look new, and "I gotta burn off this gas".
Lol, hillbillies with a bunch of old defunct cars in the overgrown side yard will actually be storing electricity in the future.
GeoFry3 i love how that profiling stereotype can just be thrown around with absolutely no consequence.
Only if they insulate the batteries on cinder blocks.
@@joshuajohnson9390 take your PC nonsense and shove it up your ass Josh. If you ever lived in fly over country you'd know the truth and get the joke.
another great and interesting video Joe! I think it would be an interesting idea to start building homes with off grid storage standard (using EV batteries as it seems their cost will be greatly dropping in the coming years) to even out the loads on the power grid and ultimately reduce the cost of power transmission.
you are going to have to do this video many many times, not because of stupidity but because of negative propaganda but don't ever stop.
It's pretty endless isn't it.
@@joescott Joe love your videos. Please do one on the mars project by werhner Von Braun. He named the leader of the mars project "Elon" in this book. And hope you could talk about similar stuff in that videos. Please please make a video. Id love to hear your thoughts. This has really not been popular topic I don't know why. Hope you shed some light.
I have been off grid in my home for years using 160 year old rechargeable battery technology (lead acid). Two reasons keep me from switching to lithium, the cost and uncertainty of implementation. Most appliances today that do not contain transformers in the mains will operate nicely on 100V (the standard voltage in my country), but I am 100% DC. That carries it's own problems such as arcing in switches when turned off so spark arrestors are required on all of them. I watched this video to assist in my motivation to convert to lithium ion.
The future should be thorium and hydrogen, fusion 10-20 years later. No my argument against EVs has been the same since day one, you're trading one finite resource for another. The batteries as they are today are too reliant on extremely polluting mining and in particular rare earth metals.
Hydrogen ICE has a 100% renewable recycling cycle. Thorium like EV's is a stopgap but it's an easier problem to resolve over 100,000 years and 10-20 years after that fusion.
every mine has the potential to be hazardous and polluting.
Not developing EVs wont stop that.
It's not like nuclear reactors are built entirely out of iron and concrete.
You touched on this but I would like to expand your comment. While Thorium has no chance in the western world due to negative connotations of anything with the word "nuclear" in it China is moving ahead full steam on solving safe Thorium reactors. If they succeed and are able to build safe, commodity thorium reactors they will solve their energy crisis in short order.
Interestingly it was Thorium that caused a lot of the current issues with rare earth material shortages. Thorium is abundant in any materials being mined for the more exotic rare earths used in high tech manufacturing. The abundance of Thorium as a by product that was both classed as radioactive waste and for which there was no market meant that these mines had to close. China just didn't worry about that and thus cornered the world market and now can control high tech manufacturing involving rare earth materials.
I tend to agree
@D Jaquith, Thorium powerstations are far away, best case scenario is 30 years from now. That is too late so we have to focus on batteries now. Driving on hydrogen is hideously inefficient and this isn't solved by thorium.
A small portion of cobalt sources is questionable regarding human ethics. Biggest part (85%) is mined properly, although it may still be invasive for the earth. The good thing is that battery manufacturers are all determined to minimise and finally eleminate cobalt from batteries. Lithium mining is mainly done from brine lakes and is not invasive.
Also, electrolyzers and fuel cells also require 'rare earth' matels and wear faster than batteries. Plus, fuel cell cars also require (smaller) lithium ion batteries.
Joe, the advantages of EV are so understated that until you drive and get used to how well they work one simply cannot understand the lifestyle change. I have a Subaru Plug in Hybrid and have driven about 1,000 miles so far, mostly using the battery, and the car has used a mere 10 gallon of gas. The hybrid aspect gives me the safety of knowing that I can go as far as I like and still fill up the gas tank. And the battery has given me the ability to drive around town for about $1.50 per 30 miles equivalent of charging the battery during "Off-Peak"
Officially Subaru claim about 19 miles per charge, but with the re-generation ability I am getting about 30 miles on battery alone which is my normal about town diving and I only fill up gas for the longer trips. It is very much a life changing advantage.
🤖 "Ex-ce-ll-ent out-put...hu-man unit..perhaps we w-ill not des-troy you-all as-yet ! "
Yay more batteries!
The most important thing to come out of this whole electric car thing has been the development and increased access to better batteries...
For me. Me, personally.
The higher-amperage types of the new 20650, 20700, and 21700 batteries blow 18650s out of the water, even the vtc5as, for vaping!
That’s right, I said it.
*THE* most important thing is that my vaping experience has been moderately improved.
:P
Hey joe you should do a doppleganger episode and guest star charlie day. :) We both know thats impossible tho cuz yall the same dude huh bra? Its a conspiracy! This whole office is a ghost town!
I bought a 2001 Honda Insight which was the first hybrid, much to the chagrin of Toyota. I had it for 13 years before it died and after 7 years Honda did a recall on the batteries so each person who purchased one could get a free battery which would have cost something like $4,000. They were willing to do this because the 2000/2001 Honda Insight was almost a prototype and not very many people bought them. They were two seaters that had the same shape as a CRX, small and sporty. Mine was silver and essentially looked like a tiny spaceship. But batteries are a lot better now than in those days. I loved my Insight. It got 55 mpg in the city and about 70 mpg on the highway. If you were really careful about how you drove you could get over 100 mpg. I could gas up in Boulder CO and drive all the way to Topeka KS, NON-STOP, and had a couple of bars of gas leftover!
Toyota hybrid batteries fail completely around 250k miles. Also... What's wrong with nuclear power? Why aren't we using that to bridge the renewable gap.
I have heard more like over 350
It's a completely different battery chemistry and a very different use case. Toyota uses NiMH batteries, they are cycled much more frequently and much faster discharged. They also have a far lower energy density.
Good coverage of the topic. Thank you!
You know i wish i liked electric cars but i don’t
That doesn't make much sense.
@@johnmoniz3169 It makes sense to me. I wish I liked a lot of things that are good for me, like exercise and yard work, but they're boring. They just have to be done.
Meanwhile, I actually DO like a lot of things that are bad for me...
@@lordchickenhawk Sorry, not the same thing at all. There are no physical hardships nor sensory stimulations in an EV that would prevent one from fulfilling their wish. Just silly really.
Desperately needed EV/battery anti-FUD video!!!
Huh. I had never heard of that idea of using old EV batteries for grid storage.
Makes total sense, since you don't need nearly as high a performance for grid storage as you do for EVs.
I feel more people need to hear about it!
Agreed, most EV batteries will hold up over time. Nissan Leaf batteries on the other hand don’t. Look at any Nissan Leaf with over 50,000 miles. You find a lot of them with over 30% degradation. My Model S is holding up strong at only 2% degradation with 40,000 miles.
Another brilliant video Joe. It posed questions that I had never even considered. Well done
FUD lol. Someone said to me 3 years ago not to buy a Prius because if the battery goes it'll cost you 6 grand to replace. Well the battery actually did go after 2 years, but it cost 800 dollars to fix and I saved that much and more in petrol in just one year.
Joe you continue to amaze me with the way you can make me hopeful for the future and fear it even more so.
I'm working on reducing the cost of high intensity agriculture and this solves a big problem related to peak smoothing and purchasing as little peak priced energy as possible. While electric cogeneration using natural gas is attractive, it's still wasteful and of course uses fossil fuels. Stationary batteries are an excellent solution but new ones are prohibitively expensive. Problem solved! Thanks!
Car makers have to really look at combining supercapacitors and batteries in EVs. Supercaps offer great advantages, especially in brake regen energy storage efficiency. There was a _super-battery_ that combined the two in one package.
ah yes john. thus Tesla's acquisition of Maxwell technology. coming to a tesla near you... VERY SOON.
One of the biggest differences between EV batteries and consumer electronics batteries is the usage pattern. A phone or laptop typically starts with just enough battery to get through a day going from 100% charge to 0% (or close to it). You buy a car that has enough capacity for your worst-case scenario (like a road trip) but your average usage is typically much lower than the worst case, so you don't end up stressing out the battery. You can usually keep it closer to the ideal 50% charge. If you use 20% of the battery on a typical day, you can charge it to 60% over night, then when you return home the next evening it will be down to 40%. That reduces the wear on the batteries by an enormous amount.
A great question people consider, then forget to ask an authority when they have the chance. Great topic!
I also have a 2013 Volt, but only 58,000 miles on it (23,000 on the ICE.) No degradation on it either. When Chevrolet downloaded a battery management update two years ago, the summer “full charge” distance went from 33 to 38 miles. In other words, the 6 yr old battery holds more energy than it used to when I bought it three years ago.
That said, the millennium is still young. Time will tell.
In 2015 Dyson employed 400 engineers to work on a solid state battery, claiming an early release of their first EV in 2021. A few commentators suggest that Dyson will initially employ LI batteries, but it is not clear whether or not this is based on statements by Dyson. Either way, I think SS batteries are within 5 years of production, which will easily reduce the weight of current systems by up to 75%, while extending range by a factor of two or three. The CE automobile (outside of exotics) can't survive another ten years.
I have a 2004 Prius that I am STILL driving. That's a 15 year old Hybrid EV. Under ideal conditions I still get > 40mpg. Even in the winter when batteries don't work well I will usually get > 30mpg.
This makes me happy I bought EV grade 18650 cells for my ebike. I'm at 2 years of use and I keep expecting a dramatic drop in range but it hasn't happened yet.
I'm still using 10 Hobbyking multistar 6S lipos after 4 years. Kept within 80%-20% and still going strong, no puffing but capacity down to about 80%. Still good enough.
It might have been on a Transport Evolved video from Nikki several years ago now, that went into whichever Japanese car maker was setting up this after car battery program, it might even have been Nissan, but the problem was that customers just weren't returning old batteries to become power walls fast enough. The darn things were just lasting too long!
Cool, I've wondered a lot about this issue. Thanks.
In a plant i worked in with 250+ machines all starting as same time, we bought a generator and used the generator for start up to eliminate surge charges.
my bmw 330ci is 17 years old and it runs like a dream :)
Awesome video Joe, thanks!
I hope you have a great time at VidCon, Joe.
Another great job, well done
We have two 2013 Chevy Volts and they go as far on a charge as they ever did. I think these batteries are dependable and GM made sure they were. They put a lot of effort into the Volt as a transition toward totally electric cars. They wanted no lemons in the bunch. They were looking forward to their future reputation in electric propulsion.
Awesome video, I'm watching this on my nine year iPad 2 that gets charged once a week
*I have a Mercedes B200 CDi 'Sport AMG Line (W246) now 5 Years old and the Battery never fails, it covers up to 74.3 MPG (UK Gallon) and can achieve 142 MPH (Autobahn) It might be viewed as a **_Dirty Diesel_** but at the latest test report was "Emissions too low to Register" - I am acquainted with the Term **_Range Anxiety_** but only ever had this once in France when trying to reach much cheaper fuel in Luxembourg. I applaud the EV Pioneers and may you do well and prosper, however long way to go yet. I guess I might need a new battery in the next two years as all this Stop/Start business takes its inevitable toll.*
My experience with a VW Golf GTE running 60000 km was that it was still getting about 80 % of the original range at that point. *However* GTE is a plugin hybrid so the hard winters here at Finland were helped by the gasoline mainly when the temperatures were below -10 °C and the heating of the cabin was not ideal with batteries. The power intake for heating was over 2,5 kW.
Power input management should be matched by power usage management. We would get way more benefit from limiting peak demand on the grid system. I could imagine a system where every device spoke to your house and asked permission to run right now, a central monitor would temporarily turn off or ask appliances for lower demand for the time the latest one needed it. EG: You cook something in the microwave for 3 minutes, during that time your aircon worked less and the hot water system didn't heat the water as quickly. The house could make sure it's demand didn't exceed a set value. In the US, I'm told you have 200A incoming for a single phase (here in Oz it's between 80 and 100A) and I would think the house should be able to limit totals to less than 100 (50 in Oz) by sequencing.
Thanks Mr. Scott! Well done Sir!