You’ll Be Surprised How Long EV Batteries Last & Which Cars Need Their Batteries Replaced The Most!
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- Опубликовано: 30 мар 2023
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We recently bought a used 2015 Chevy Spark EV. It’ll be 8 years old in a couple months. The battery is still under warranty and seems to still get the same rated range as when they were new. I’m very impressed with the longevity of the battery.
i had a Toyota Prius Prime that was leased because i wanted to go electric since my parents got a Tesla Model Y. i live in NY and my rate is $.04 per kWh and only spent $7 in charging costs. i ended up diving back into the pool after my lease ended and got myself a Hyundai IONIQ electric. i love it. i haven't had it very long because i bought it used but i drive it in eco mode, am not hard on the throttle and i got Michelin CrossClimate2s on it because of the snow we get (they're all-weather tires). i right now with the weather average about 92-116 miles of range. i'm anticipating to see what i get in the summer months
2014 Spark EV here. I bought it used maybe 5 years ago. I have no idea what happened early in it's life, but it has never read more than 62 miles of range since I got it. That range hasn't changed or degraded in the time I've owned it. The range is short, but it's plenty to make my 34 mile round trip commute. The best part is it was cheap to buy ($10k all in, tax, license, extended warranty, everything) and it costs next to nothing to own. Registration is super cheap, insurance is low, and of course electricity from my home solar is cheap. I put a new 12v battery ($150) in it a few years ago and I need to replace one of the headlight bulbs ($10?). It needs new tires, which I imagine, will be the biggest expense the entire time I've owned it.
@@devinkenyon553 Hey, I had an Ioniq electric 28kWh for five years and did an insane number of miles with it. It was perfect for my use case and I still miss it. It went through over 1000DC fast charging sessions, and it was charging fast, too (unlike the later 38kWh Model, unfortunately). When I sold it, battery health was at 100% and it had degraded so little, that I actually got more range out of it after 5 years than when it was new. What it lacks in battery size, it makes up for in unrivaled efficiency. Tyres are cheap, it uses almost no electricity, it is pretty quick, and lightfooted, nothing ever breaks or goes kaputt and they have basically no known issues besides the stock wiper blades. And it fit on the narrow alleys and small parking lots of our medieval cities, that were built to fit inside a defensive town wall rather than suit motorised traffic. I even got an insanely good price for it, despite the age and mileage, because these 28kWh Ioniqs have a legendary reputation around here, and sort of a cult following. So you can be pretty confident you got yourself a winner.
@@adrianguggisberg3656 that's great to know because the dealership i got it from had a 2019 and a 2020 on their lot and i took the '19 because it was cheaper. i appreciate that feedback. i feel better knowing that
Battery replacement is well over $10k and is about to be out of warranty...what do you think that means for resale. I hope you didn't pay more than $6k for the car.
The number of Bolts with over 200,000 miles on the original, pre-recall batteries is growing; a Bolt in Canada recently rolled over 400,000kms on the original, with little degridation.
19 out of 140,000 Bolts burned; kudos to GM for replacing them all.
It was also due to a manufacturer defect which is why the Korean manufacturer of the batteries agreed to pay most of the costs for this all.
10 years and 210,000 miles later my 2013 volt still gets an indicated 41 miles of range and I get an average efficiency of over 4 miles per KWH.
Thank you for pointing out that both the BOLT EV and Kona EV were impacted by the LG battery issue. Most of the automotive and general media reporting that I see seem to single out the BOLT EV and ignore the Kona EV. As a 2017 BOLT EV owner I’m glad that GM did the right thing and pledged to replace all of the batteries in question. My traction battery was replaced over a year ago. I still love my BOLT EV, it’s a great car and my daily. driver.
I bought my Bolt EUV last May. I charge at home to 75% (except on rare trips). I've only used public charging 8 times.
I love my Bolt! It's a wonderful car. No perceptible degradation after 12,220 mi. I use an electric plan that tells me the price/kwh each hour for a day in advance.
I pay between 1.5 - 2.5 cents/kwh for charging! A 0-66kw would only cost me an average of $1.32 (I actually charge from 40-75% unless I have a trip).
This is as close to driving for free that I can possibly get.
@@8thman8 - Congratulaitons on your purchase. We got a 2023 Bolt EV Jan. 2, 2023. It took us over a year to hit 3,000 m. We charge about every other week. The charger is a level 2 in the apartment house parking lot, it is free to residents. We regularly charge top 85%, 90% for long trips. We get 4m/Kw with summer tires. We had a 12 year old Honda Fit which my wife loved. The Bolt EV was the closest in size.
One of the other things they don't tell you is the battery pack themselves can be reused as a backup battery power for your home or between 8 and 10 more years. It may not be strong enough for a car used but it's still great to be used in the house after the car is done with it
It could, if there was a kit you could buy and build that. However, there is a company trusting old Leaf batteries ( and other manufacturers), slotting them into a rack like a server, and selling them as battery backups to businesses. They even use the original BMS, couples with their own software controller, for even charge/discharge. After full degradation, there ARE battery recyclers. The full lifecycle is long
And how many people will give up on the resale value of there car, and have the desire, knowledge, strength, and skill to tear apart their car to put the battery to this use?
@@gabrielback5615 it's just like mechanics how many people can actually rebuild their engine after 200,000 miles. This is a new industry and more and more people are learning how to do just that replace people's battery packs for them and then repurposed the battery of the old ones where I live in the Republic of Panama that solar-powered vehicles are not very popular yet there's already companies offering to replace batteries and older electric vehicles and converting older ice cars to Electric.
@@gabrielback5615 remember this is a new industry. There's no ways of doing things, companies are talking about selling the car and just leasing the batteries. Which would make it so you could purchase the car really cheap then lease the batteries and never have to worry about if they're getting old or not. Last but not least battery prices are going to keep falling if they figure out how to make them wear cheaper and with more sustainable materials
@@gabrielback5615 - It's essentially a 400V or 800V battery. If you use the BMS that comes with the battery pack (often built into the battery pack), you wouldn't need to tear it apart. You would need to design your system to use higher voltages though. However, in any case you would want to be very careful if planning to go inside the cases. With the ability of these battery packs to supply hundreds of amps at those high voltage levels, death comes very quickly.
I think the scariest thing is a sudden out-of-warranty battery failure that can quickly render a car nearly worthless. It would be great if manufacturers would give 15 year battery warranties where the first x-year/y-mile fault (like 7-yr/100,000 mile) results in a new battery. But for the remainder of the 15 years, they will replace faulted batteries with a reclaimed battery. Otherwise, anyone buying a used EV is really gambling that a $30,000 used car doesn't suddenly need a $15,000 battery). And that can really affect adoption rates. If the industry wants to alleviate anxiety, 15-year fault protection would go a long way (not degredation protection).
Just imagine buying an ICE car , used, and within a few km the distribution belt breaks down.....replacement of engine needed.
Price comparable to that of a new battery.
And yes , I've heard quite often about those belt breakdowns (and other engine failuers) shortly after buying a second handed car from 8 to 10 years old.
Its exactly the same risk which you take.....
But those belts snap suddenly without warning....
A battery has a certain state and that state can be checked electronically on modern cars. And, contrary to the engine, if necessary a few cells (module) can be replaced.
@@reiniernn9071 Lithium batteries can be bricked if physical damage happens, also they are quite sensitive if in the wrong conditions. Tesla does not replace battery modules from what I understand. Your stuck in the DIY or used market for that. Battery coolant pipes on Model 3 batteries have had that issue and Telsa does not cover. There are videos on RUclips check out "Tesla wanted $16,000 to fix this NEW Model 3, we did it for $700! The importance of Right to REPAIR!" video.
Timing belts rarely fail before 100K. Miles, and timing chains can go 200K before replacement.
Engine damage caused by timing belt failure can be fixed for under $4K. Far less than a $22k battery replacement that all EVs will require sooner than later.
Just buy a warranty if this is your concern.
2018 Nissan Leaf. Started with 150 miles of range now it has 146. Been perfect. 90k miles.
how do you charge it? as in do you charge it up to 100%? or what style do you use? i have a '19 Hyundai IONIQ electric and charge it to 100% every session
Great video! Completely agree - I’ve had several EVs. First year you see a 10% degradation and then it stays steady at 90% of capacity. This is yet another reason why EVs with 300+ mile range are much better than those with 200 mile or less. You just get the added buffer. With 300 mile range, Especially with kids, you’ll always make more stops for bathroom breaks than for charging on road trips… so just make those stops at a supercharger. By the time you’re done with the bathroom brake your car will add 100+ miles of range and you’re good to go…
but your bathroom breaks need to last an hour or 2, my breaks take 10 minutes tops. big difference for those of us driving cross country and don't wanna pay to stay the night somewhere multiple days just to get where we are going.
@@michaelfried3123 that is so dramatic and outside the scope of reality. You didn’t even comprehend what he just said. By the time you’re done with your restroom break (15-20 mins) your EV would have gained over 100+ miles of range *at a fast charger.*
@@mybro727 you run on hopium and wild dreams dontcha? LOL. Most EV's take an hour just to charge enough to drive 150 miles or less, so go peddle your misinformation to someone who doesn't know the current reality.
@@SS-yw7vo I don't need breaks that long every 2 hours of driving, I like to get where I'm going.
@@SS-yw7vo only when you are 80 years old maybe.
What you should do is make a comparison to how many ICE cars get their engines and transmission changes over the same 10yr period
Agreed. There are reasonable comparisons to be made here. It's very likely the EV will come out on top of all the costs and emissions but it's not a total wash.
It should be close to none. Most new cars go like 15 years without major failures, if cared for. By the way how you treat your battery also will have a huge impact on how long it lasts. If you fast charge it every time it wont last as long as plugging it in to the house and charging it to 80%
@@jeffk464 Do a search for hyundai engine failures or Jeep 3.6 ticking, and that's just a start. I could name many engines that have very short lifespans.
@@jeffk464 Not so sure. This varies wildly, especially by brand. Most UK manufactured cars are very carefully engineered to be problem free for only the warranty period - any longer is considered wasteful of MPG and cooperate profits. The Japanese six-sigma ethos favors reliability (and simplicity) and results in longer affordable lifespans AND higher resale values.
I would bet ICE 10-year powertrain failure rates are much higher than the BEV (1.5%), but the big-ticket repair cost are much lower (for now). One big difference: 'Dead' battery packs get recycled & failed engines block cars go to junk yard/landfill.
I've had my 2019 Chevy Bolt Premier since brand new. After almost 80K miles of active everyday use and 4 Canadian winters, I still love the car!
Before my battery was replaced as part of GM's recall last year, I had the old battery's health checked by the dealership. It turned out that the degradation was about 2%. (All I had to do was to keep it charged at 40-80% and avoid DC fast charging as much as possible). So, even the old battery was likely to outlive the car.
GM played fair and gave me and other Bolters an 8-year or 100,000-mile warranty. So, I am not really worried about my battery. It is well-covered and promises me many more years of happy Bolting.
Looking at your graph for the Model S. We have 46,000 miles on it. We are getting around 340 miles on a full charge. It's good to be above the average line for that mileage. Appreciate the graph. It appears to level out after that quite a bit for degradation.
One of the most important videos for EV owners or buyers! Thank you gentlemen! I own a 2020 Model Y LR. My battery capacity started at 316 miles, now 3 years and 30k miles later it is 306 miles. In my book this is more than acceptable and normal degradation which in any way hasn’t affected my driving. I plan to keep my car for 3-4 more years until there are EV’s with better specifications. However My Model Y is still up to date and superior in almost any way to the current non Tesla competitors. This is a testament of the qualities and features Tesla offers to its customers like constant software development and upgrades and excellent battery and drivetrain quality and performance. I have test driven almost all of the new EV offerings on the market and many of them are better built as cars with superior interiors, better suspensions and noise isolation. We have incredible vehicles from Mercedes, BMW, Porsche, Rivian. However in my opinion there is no better EV car as a whole package for the regular consumer than Tesla.
Thanks for the great comment!
Looking at the published degradation curves of Tesla, you have passed the quick drop, and you probably see a very tiny drop over the next 200K miles. The drop is 4% over the first 30K, then 1% over then next 100K.
Too bad their CEO has gone off the deep end :(
@@SteveHiemstraAKAspeg Musk seems to be doing a great job with Tesla. I watched investor day and the company appears to be running on all cylinders...and improving rapidly. Vertical integration, rapid implementation of improvements, battery manufacturing, improved build quality, minerals acquisition and processing. It just seems like Musk and the team he has built is doing better than ever.
I’m a Big Fan of Tesla but I’m starting to shift towards the Chevy Equinox EV 2024. I like its Bells and Whistles. Tesla is very very Minimalistic. A HUD is very much needed on all Tesla’s.
Its good that these things will last a long time. It makes folks much more likely to buy them and hold them and those that buy used can have good confidence that they're not buying something that will require a massive expense shortly after doing so.
Thanks for the video, i noticed that 2016 Chev Spark EV not listed/compared.
I'm looking at a used 2016 Spark EV 2LT with only 25k miles. The warranty on the Spark is over nxt year but miles really low considering. .
Should I have pause on this vehicle?
My 2014 volt new had 10.4 kwh 0r 38 miles of usable range when it was new and now in 2023 with 90000 miles it still has 10.4 kwh of usable range.
I live off the grid and 99% of its charging has been off of my solar system.
Thank you for your video. It was great!
I currently drive a 2016 prius V with 140,000km on it. I don't plan on replacing it for another few years but I'm very much on the fence about either buying a plug in hybrid or a full BEV.
That was a great video guys. I drive a 2020 Model Y LR. Original range was 316 indicated when new and now with 72k miles it tops off at 297 - roughly a 6% drop. I’m glad to hear that it’ll likely stabilize for the next few years.
Finally a good review of the reality of ev ownership. My 2013 Fiat 500e is still working perfectly. Yes, this is one of the lowest mile batteries at 24kw but it still has the range I need for local commutes and errands. Thanks guys!
They talk about replacements for the Volt, but they don't mention how many have been junked due to a bad battery. I've seen many for sale for like $2k with a bad battery.
Only degrade in my mini se seems to be during constant charge discharge sessions. When it stops going for a while the distance comes back.
Nice report! Great job guys displaying the facts.
It’s worth noting battery life will only get better with more manufacturers going to LFP aka LifePo4 chemistry to bring price down. Less range but longer life. I feel like the issue right now isn’t range but charging infrastructure. You wouldn’t need 300 miles of range if every gas station was a charging station.
Also charging speed is a huge factor. People are used to pulling into a gas station and pulling back out again in 10 minutes.
LFP smaller capacity and heavier
Also you have to keep in mind on most electric cars, you won’t have to replace the whole battery pack but just a module. The Bolt has 288 cells and 5 battery modules so the price will be less to replace then the whole pack…
This is the one thing that most people, especially anti EV people, don't understand.
I know in my diesel pickup (which uses two batteries) that the batteries should be bought new together, if you run a new battery with an old one, the old one will drag down the new one. How is the battery system on an EV any different?
Usually the whole battery is replaced at once, because if you only replace 1 module then you have to make sure it is balanced with all the other modules in the battery. And chances are that the replaced module will age differently compared to the stock modules, leading to further imbalance problems in the future.
Doubtful. Many of these packs are hilariously overstuffed with water and shock proofing. That said, even though the batteries aren't useful for an EV, they can don't just completely lose capacity and can be repurposed for home or grid storage. Shredding, while promising, is hopefully a distance stage of recycling for these packs.
I don't see that happening to much liability for the repair facility. same reason shops don't rebuild engines transmissions or fix body panels they only replace them
2017 Bolt EV here - original battery degraded less than 10% in 4.5 years and 77k miles. Replacement (larger) battery has been in the car for almost 1 year and 13k miles since. It charges slow, but it’s still a great little car!
Did you have to replace the battery or you just wanted to?
@@manthony225 - to me, the battery operated just fine at 77k miles. Being restricted to a minimum charge level of 30% (GM rule) makes any medium distance trip harder though, plus the new battery is effectively 20% larger than the original - inclusive of the degradation in the original, and you can use all of it.
6:16 that's only if was battery replaced, and how much did that cost? also it would be interesting to see how many were scrapped because it cost too much. I wonder how that would compare to ICE cars that were scrapped or needed a new engine.
Great show! I like how you explain the spikes in the data caused by the Bolt. thanks!
Thanks for making this video, guys. I get that question ALL the freaking time. It’s staggering the amount of misinformation there is surrounding EVs in general. This is a great, factual video that helps to dispel at least some of that. Well done!
The internet is a two edge sword.
Still wont get an ev
Dudes, where is my car? Can't believe the creators of the study left out the BMW i3! It's been for sale in the US since 2013, I think. We have a 2014 and have never had any issues with our battery. Had a 100 mile range when sold new. Today still charges to 90% of original range.
You missed two important points. You can get a battery repaired (gruber in the US and Cleveley in the UK to name just two of many) and you can replace/upgrade by getting a battery from a scrap yard. Robert Llewelin from Fully Charged did this last year.
I think we have all seen (or watched if we subscribe to this channel) that the manufacturers and battery management has gotten much better over the years as they make tweaks to increase the longevity of these platforms. I think the manufacturers holding back so of the KWH in the battery just in case you are a 0-100 charge has really helped avoid range degradation as well.
The question is how much of the drop is due to heat (operating, ambient, and fast charging temp), how much due to time at high SOC, and how much just time period. In other words, how much control does the owner have over that drop?
We’ve got a 2015 Fiat 500e with 60k miles. Originally rated at 84 miles. We get between 50 and 60 per charge.
Fiat has never been know for being very reliable. And this being a “compliance car” I wasn’t expecting it to hold up as good as it has. We couldn’t be happier especially as we only paid $6k for it about 3 years ago.
It’s my daily driver (25 mile round trip). And for short runs on the weekend, I always take it before our Model Y as it is easy to maneuver and very go kart like to drive. Not for road trips obviously, but we knew they going in. It’s the perfect small car for us.
Great video guys! Begs the question: What is the rate of battery failures VS Engine/transmission major failures? Cost of battery pack replacement vs engine/transmission replacement?
Yeah, I wis this was actually discussed along with how much a secondary owner could potentially pay out of pocket or how useful an aftermarket warranty is for a battery replacement since from my understanding, it’s unlikely for a part of the failed pack to be repaired with current composition which necessitates complete replacement.
Your comparing batteries to internal combustion engines and transmissions? EV has its own electric motors and gear box for reduction and can be quite costly. New batteries vs new engines or transmissions are much more expensive. Used EV batteries would be the way to go but you hope you get a good set.
Electric motors have a near perfect torque curve that's flat from practically zero rpm up to an incredibly high red line (the latest Tesla motors can spin at over 22,000 rpms). With the ability to deliver that sort of torque an EV doesn't need a transmission, at least not a typical transmission. There's no need for multiple gear ratios so a transmission would be of no use. Most EV's need only a simple single ratio gear reduction unit. The Porsche Taycan is the only EV I know of that uses a transmission which in their case is just a two-speed tranny used because their torque curve is not wide enough to give it both the low end and top end performance they wanted. The Taycan has an incredible launch yet can also hit speeds of up to 165 mph.
As far as motor failure is concerned, Tesla designs the electric motors for their cars to provide a minimum of 500,000 miles of service (the semi motors are good for well over 1,000,000). Tesla routinely tests their motors to over 1,000,000. Motor failures in an electric car are extremely rare. That said, Tesla did have a problem with their 2012 through 2014 models due to a bushing/bearing in the motor/drive unit that was found to be faulty. With the sort of torque and Hp numbers that Teslas can generate (over 1000 Hp and nearly 1100 ft-lbs of torque), it's not entirely unheard of for Tesla owners to find a way to damage drive train components.
When it comes to lifetime cost comparisons EV's will likely have far fewer issues and much lower cost-to-own over their lifetime. Just look under the hood. Electric motors have essentially one moving part. None of the hundreds of points of wear-n-tear or points of failure that Gasoline or Diesel vehicles have. No serpentine belts or associated pumps, pulleys, bushings or bearings. No alternator, no mechanical water pump or high temperature, high pressure engine cooling system. No spark plugs, coil packs, or ignition control modules. No fuel injectors, fuel pressure regulators, fuel pumps, fuel filters, or fuel injection control modules. No timing chains, timing belts, or timing gears to replace. No starter motor needed. No traditional transmission or power steering pump so no associated hydraulic fluids, and no oil or filters to change. No O2 sensors or the many other engine control sensors that go bad due to the extreme heat and vibration that prematurely degrades nearly everything under the hood (hoses, belts, wiring, sensors, gaskets, seals). No exhaust pipes, mufflers, or catalytic converters. Regen allows EV brakes to last three to four times as long so no expensive brake jobs every 40k miles. Improved EV batteries now last over 1500 "full" charge cycles (over 3000 for the new LFP batteries being used by Tesla and Ford). EV's with only 250 miles of range per charge cycle, lasting just 1500 full charge cycles, will outlive most ICE vehicles and with FAR less maintenance, repair and fuel costs. An ICE vehicle that gets 30 mpg will need over 10,000 gallons of gas to reach 300,000 miles. At $3.50/gallon that's over $35,000 for fuel alone not to mention oil changes, more frequent brake jobs, at least 3 timing belts or 2 timing chain/timing gear replacements, at least 2 alternator and 2 mechanical water pump replacements, at least one set of pan and rocker cover gaskets, likely one rear engine oil seal, multiple O2sensor replacements, possibly one head gasket replacement, at least one rebuild of the automatic transmission, and multiple trips to the dealer to have that "Check Engine" or "Service Required" light extinguished. And after 300,000 miles you'll need to add at least one engine rebuild to keep it on the road. So you'll have likely spent well over $50,000 to keep that ICE alive (over $60,000 if you have a dealer do all the work). And let's not talk about how many hours you'll waste sitting in customer lounges waiting for all this maintenance. Rather steep price to pay for that ICE considering that after 300,000 miles and 15-20 years the only thing an EV "may" need replaced under the hood (or under the car in an EV's case), is a new $8k to $15k battery and the small 12V SLA accessory battery as well.
@@Tron-Jockey EVs are orders of magnitude more reliant on software (and thus computers) than even the most teched-out ICE vehicle and that will probably be the common long-term failure point.
Tesla are nowhere as reliable as you suggested.
Rich Rebuilds 10-yr old model S required a replacement battery, two drive units, and four door handles. That's over $32k in parts alone not including labor.
I understand why it isn’t available, but I would love to have seen some info on the BMW i3 and Mini Cooper SE (which I own one of).
I have a 8yr old i3 60Ah (approximately 18kWh), I bought it 3.5yrs ago when it had done 42k, it's now done nearly 95k and I genuinely don't feel it's degraded at all in that time. I still get 70 miles range in the Scottish summer and about 50 miles in the middle of winter.
Can you please share the link to research article which you quote in your video?
I had a '13 Fiat 500e that lost somewhere between 30 and 40% of its capacity despite only have 41k miles on it. While I loved the car, it was an effort to get 50 miles of range at 65 mph. Unfortunately, this didn't work for my commute, so I had to replace it with another EV.
The ownership experience taught me a number of things:
1) You likely don't need nearly as much range as you might think. At least for a dedicated vehicle that is for commuting and running to the local shops.
2) Conversely, error on the side of more range than you think you'll need. This is because:
a) Batteries degrade. It's a fact, so factor that in to begin with.
b) Batteries will degrade faster if you fully charge and fully discharge them. As a general rule, assume on a regular basis you only have around 70% (80 (full)-10% ('empty')) available.
c) An EVs range will suffer given certain conditions (cold weather, wind, rain/snow, elevation ascents, etc.). To be fair, these conditions negatively impact combustion vehicles too.
But it is less noticeable due to the amount of energy onboard and easy of refilling.
Excellent, I have a 2015 Fiat 500e just starting to lose a little range. Although 120 mi range would be plenty, I want a little headroom for degradation. Thinking about getting a Bolt. I think bargain EVs are gone for a while.
87K miles
@@rp9674 My old '13 500e had some of the worst degradation that I've ever heard of on one of those cars. I think this is because it spent a large amount of its life at 100% SOC due to the inability to stop charging at a specified SOC. Also, it had spent several years in the hot climate of the Southwest. Its replacement is a Bolt EV 1LT. Very similar to what TFL purchased. After the $7,500 federal tax credit, it's impressive value. But I agree, bargains on EVs are few and far between currently. I've very happy with the purchase. Although, it doesn't put the smile on my face like the 500e did. That often had me grinning like an idiot!
@@-Enginerd so similar to my experience, I'm going to shop for a bolt LT1 this weekend. I'm sure I'm going to miss my Fiat, but can't afford to keep it... Unless I have to.
Fiat's usable now, but I'm afraid it's soon not going to have enough charge to get me home. I've wondered if the brakes are dragging, but I don't see any other signs. I hate not having a charge limit, try not to charge to 100% all the time.
We have 2 Teslas. Our oldest is a 2018 Model 3 with 88,000 on it. Originally came with 310 which got bumped up in a software update to 325 but I never saw the increase. Now at 100% charge it charges to 300.
I have a 2018 Model 3 as well. Never saw the 325 increase either. At about 44K miles and the car shows about 300 miles at 100%
Maybe the increase requires the aero wheel covers? Which wheels do yo have?
@@lemongavine I have the 18" aero wheels. Started with 310 miles, after the software update to 325 I think I say maybe 315 at one point. Indicated range is about 300 now after 44K miles, so I'm very pleased about that. When driving 75-80mph I will realistically get 230-240 miles, which again is great
@@lemongavine Possibly. I have the 18" wheels and I mainly run it without the covers. I only put them on for trips. That being said I think the Tesla calculates this when you change your wheels in the GUI. Can't recall if that GUI change for the wheels came before that update or after.
@@lemongavine Tesla's range display is the EPA rated range. It assumes the same vehicle configuration and conditions as the original EPA test. Therefore it is only affected by the available energy in the battery.
Well my 10 year old 2013 Nissan Leaf SL has 92% battery health, and works like a new car. I am hoping for an aftermarket manufacturer to produce a 50 kWh replacement battery to more then double the range and so I can use my current battery for home energy storage for the next decade.
I've sold my leaf (zero, 2013, 25KWH (20KWH usable)) in 2021. Still in good working order after more than 1000 cycli on the battery. (110000 km)
It was running fine with at that moment ca 75-80% range left from original. Biggest problem...in winter no heatpump , resulting in massive range drop due to high usage for the electrical heating. Only when preheating before departure on the grid the drop was less. I did not fastcharge that leaf ...also because in those years there were no fastchargers available.
After the leaf I've driven a ioniq build in 2017. Range when buying (>90000 km old) 205 km (new 230 km). 4 years old 90% range. Also bought a long range konaE64, used that for 75000 km. No range loss seen =until the recall for a new battery.
But because I got lucky enough to be able to buy an ioniq 5 project 45 (only a very limited number available) also half 2021 (sold the kona for that) with now 31000 km . No range loss noted. Still going (in winter, zero degrees celsius) 380 km, in summer /warmer ...420 to 430 km which nearly equals the wltp for that version.
Until no, 10 years driving electrical exactly (leaf was delivered on 31 march 2013) I'm very content with the cars , with only minor maintenance costs (as new tyres, changing window cleaning fluids and wiper rubbers)
Perfect. These packs have way longer life than expected, that's the headline. It's very possible, as you note, many EVs will get a second life with a new pack that has better chemistry/construction.
There is a company doing lfp leaf pack upgrades. I forgot the name and the cost is kinda steep but they are out there.
Aren't you able to swap to a newer higher capacity used pack as well fairly easily? 🤔
I'm in Portland, OR, and there's a local place that will replace packs with original, or upgraded. It may depend on the year of your Leaf as to what pack it can accept
We have a 2014 Smart EV with about 40,000 km (yes it is a cytadine) charged about twice a week but only on a 120 volt outlet AND the battery looks as good as at the beginning with 125 km of autonomy. Our best buy for sure!
I have 148,000 miles on my 2018 model 3. Standing at 92% original battery capacity.
My Model S is 8 years old with 105,000 miles and can still do about 212 of the original 230 mile range from the 70kWH battery. However since the furthest apart pairs of Superchargers I have found is 153 miles, I essentially still have an infinite range. I have noticed that the fast charging speed has slowed down over time. My car can still hit 90kw but blink and you miss it before it slows down and it spends much more time at 50-60kw now.
The very annoying down side of Tesla which I have just discovered is the very long wait time for body work. I recently damaged the front lower grill and one radiator and have been told by several body shops that they can't get the car in until June, or July, so I am temporarily driving my second car while my Tesla sits and I am calling further away shops.
I have a 2018 model 3 with 156k miles on it. Started with 310 miles new and currently has 280 miles range
Battery lifespan longevity has certainly improved in the last 10 years and shouldn't be a huge concern for most car owners. Even if you're cheap and run cars until they are 20 years old or more like I do, the lifespan of the battery isn't my biggest concern with EVs. What is keeping me out of the EV market firstly since I'm cheap is price, New cars just are not in the cards for me. Secondly is charge time and charger availability, Charge time needs to be sub 5 minutes and a charger always available when I have a need for me to consider an EV, so once older models drop in price, and charger infrastructure and tech vastly improves they'll be on the table. Until then, PHEV such as the RAV4 prime are the best option for me and most commuters that also need the vehicle to be able to go long distances without the hinderance of charger availability and charge times. He's to 20 years from now hoping a 2020s Highlander Prime is available and in good shape and still has decent battery capacity.
Our 2020 Chevy Bolt had zero describable range loss when it went in for it's recall. We have a 2012 Nissan LEAF that was at 9 bars when we bought it, and still is at the same general health. We treat that one with kit gloves however due to it's reputation for heat sensitivity. We're actually looking at selling it and getting a Hyundai Ioniq 5, so that we have two long range EVs as we now live in a more rural environment. The old LEAFs limits are less to do with it's short range, and more to do with the fact that we moved away from an area that it excelled in. It's still a good car and viable for a second local runabout - the original purpose in which we had bought it.
I couldn't find a link to the report. Does the report only count the cars that had their battery replaced or does it also include instances where the owner was told the car's battery needed to be replaced for $30K but decided not to? If it only counts the ones that were replaced then I think it's undercounting these instances.
I was just given that diagnosis on my 2013 Chevy Volt and said no thanks.
The strange part is that the battery seems to be performing well, it just won't start after receiving a "propulsion power is reduced" warning that occurred when driving on the gas generator and the engine light turns on. But it works fine after the codes are reset.
After this instance I'd lean toward buying a car with a good warranty on the battery.
We have a model 3 with 24,000 miles and a Mach E with 43,000 both are more than 2 years old. We have not see any loss of displayed range at 100% on either of them. Most of the charging is done at home, so it likely that DC fast charging is the primary cause of battery deterioration. We do have a Ford Explorer that we use for road trips longer than 250 miles.
Bought new, 2004 Honda CRV it now has 280k miles on the original engine and trans. Have done the regular maintenance items like tires, brakes, battery, oil changes, tune ups. And it’s still going strong. Paid $24k new and it’s still work $6k today.
I have a 2018 Model X 100D (Sept 2018 is when it was produced and I took delivery). I have 68,594 miles on it. I charged to 80% and it displays 238 miles right now (80%). The rated range is 295 miles. If you multiply 295 x 80% you get 236. So it may need to be calibrated but very little degradation in 4.5yrs. Very happy with it!
How much does excluding recalls skew the numbers?
Have a 2018 Volt (2nd gen) bought new & it's numbers have gone up a fair bit. 70-72 mpc now (epa rated 53).
The data looks promising, especially for newer tech. Unfortunately, there isn't much of that in the lower end of the spectrum, just the Bolt (since the Leaf battery is inadequate for hot weather). And unfortunately, you can't get a new Bolt right now since they are no longer making the 2023 model and the 2024 model (which due to the new battery technology "should" be noticeably cheaper) isn't out yet and we have no idea when it will become available.
My concerns:
- Impact of Florida weather on batteries, and risk of fire in my garage.
- Prices of gasoline, electricity and taxes will be unpredictable for the next 10 years (how long I usually keep cars). That means that my next car will be low-cost, but still needs to be reliable to minimize repairs. Right now there are very few options in that category, both gasoline and EV. I'd say... Nissan Versa ICE, Bolt, and maybe Leaf if the 2024 model has a better battery design. And that's it... the others in the price range I'd probably not touch with a 10-ft pole.
- Vehicle price (after the EV federal refund) and availability (meaning, finding one at the dealer with the specs I care for and not loaded with garbage options). Sadly, there are no news on release date of 2024 Bolt and Leaf and whether the Leaf will have new battery tech that isn't heat-sensitive.
For me (and a lot of other cost-conscious buyers that don't drive much), and depending on how soon I must buy my next car... it could mean that even though I'd prefer an EV, I might have to settle for the Versa ICE.
At least... it looks like starting Jan 2024 we might get the EV federal refund at the dealer's (if we qualify) and not at the end of the year. Meaning that we will not be as likely to be lied by the dealer regarding whether the particular EV they are selling us is able to get the refund.
I got an i3 and it had 50k miles. Battery just fine. It's 9 years old
I love the I3 its a great looking car and real hightech!
what about EVs in cold climates, like Maine? did the study control for operating temp/charging while sitting outside in the cold? or using the heat in the car?
Let's look at it this way. I have a 2013 Suburban and a 2004 Nissan Altima...both purchased new. Suburban has 230k miles / Altima has 155k miles. Both are at the point of needing major repairs to keep them running reliably. Suburban is now at a shop getting head gasket and lifters replaced. Altima needs struts, power steering system work, valve gasket replacement, and more. In other words, any vehicle near or past the 10yr / 200k mile point will be at the tipping point of costing more $$$ than the vehicle is worth to maintain a reliable, road worthy vehicle. So, if an EV's battery will more or less get you to the 10yr point, then it's essentially a wash to compare longevity between the two. Caveat... about 6 months ago in a Walmart parking lot, a woman was having trouble starting her second gen Prius. I tried to give her a jump, but it wouldn't start so EV's can definitely have some issues. Of course, there are outliers, so I don't need to hear about someone's 1980, 1 million-mile, gas powered whatever that's still running without ever having so much as an oil change.
Do we think it is hyped because of big oil companies afraid of loosing profits.
I don’t think big oil is afraid.
Loosing? Or losing?
This really is a great channel, guys. Thanks.
Very good information and it tells a factual good news story. Thanks 😊
I wonder how many people will eventually replace older Leaf batteries with newer much higher range batteries, Instead of an engine overhaul and would be cost effective. Now drive a Y but I held on to my 2011 Leaf as it runs fine / smooth & I use it when I want to go for errands EV incognito & park anywhere.
I bought my Model 3 in 2018 with 325 miles estimated range. When I traded it in 4.5 years later, I was getting 300 miles estimated range at 50k. That sounds about right.
Spectacular video. If you wanted to continue the conversation you could discuss the rough cost of a battery pack if you had to replace it. Some engines and transmissions cost $6000 dollars and up so if a battery is hypothetically $25000 after 200,000 miles( I have no idea if these numbers are right just hypothetical) then that would be an easier decision to make when buying an EV. Thanks for this info guys
Quick googling shows average transmission replacement is $4500 and an engine replacement between 5-10k. $15k on the higher end with a Nissan leaf battery replacement being 5-10k. It’s only the fancy giant EVs that are stupid. But so are fancy turbo v8 with duel clutches. Even tesla model 3 base is only 15k.
@@kman0074 thanks so much for that information. That tells me that battery replacement, while very expensive, is not the end of the world.
My 2004 4Runner has 200k miles on it. I bought it new for around $30k. Runs great. Will probably go another 50-70k. I hope the range of the EV’s gets to 600-800 miles per charge…and solid state…in the next couple years. I’m watching things change. This video was encouraging. Thx.
I’d like to see standardization in the packaging of the battery packs. So there can be competition in the replacement market. I think this is a reasonable expectation from a consumer. Something we should be asking for.
Thank you so much. Wish you boiled it down a little more, but basically it does allay my fears.
I'm not sure you thought about this but I'm wondering what would happen if you just chose a modern EV as your do or die car and rode it til the wheels fell off, what kind of maintenance expenses and range should you expect. That is the kind of purchase I would ideally like to make. Although if I fell into a pot of money you know I would keep my options open.
excellent job GENTS! 💪
Great video so when the batttery is replaced or at its end of life ( if that exists), how do we dispose of the battery?
Repair of bad cells first if any and reinstall after repair. Second life energy storage second (50-70% battery capacity). Finally, battery recycler is through a dealer that replaces the new battery if cells are completely drained. Likely sent to places like redwood recycling and other new places popping up as more batteries are finally needing replacement.
I liked the you guys explain about the battery life but how about the price that also go down.
Thanks for bringing attention to this. The constant lies and misinformation on social media and comment sections need to be refuted. I will be sharing this a lot!
$33,000 to replace a 1st gen Nissan Leaf battery _was_ real... it was also in AUD. That's what an *Australian* customer was (initially) quoted. The Nissan dealer didn't know about the battery exchange program, which reduced the cost to AU$10,000.
Depends if you drive every day or don't drive frequently. My 2007 Toyota Camry Hybrid battery array was doing fine until I started working remotely and only driving on the weekends. I had to replace my Hybrid battery array at 114k miles thankfully my Toyota Service Director worked with Toyota North America so the price was $1,800 vs $6,000. EV batteries and Hybrid battery arrays have that issue. Also if you charge a battery every night battery cycles matters too.
Most people don't keep their vehicles just 100k or less that is incorrect. 150k to 200k miles is more realistic.
Finally you guys put out a good EV Video. Most of them have been biased or missing key information.
Tommy, Please note that the Nissan Leaf is not air cooled. It has no active cooling of any sort, only passive heat rejection from the enclosure. Overall, great job on this interesting video.
Passive air cooling is still air-cooled.
Dig further into the Bolt recall as well. You will see that while they did/are replacing the batteries that it was out of abundance of caution. The actual number of fires/failures in the population of cars is very, very low (less than 10 if memory serves me, I owned a Bolt and a Bolt EUV)
Our 2013 Volt battery failed under warranty at about 70,000 miles. GM replaced it, after several delays and failed repairs, with a rebuilt battery. We're holding on to the Volt because we like it and are confident that it will last. We're nearing 100,000 miles.
we bought a 2014 leaf around 50k miles on it still getting around 65miles on a full charge.
Any data on the Mini Cooper SE...same battery/motor as the BMW i3. As always, love the videos !!!
It will be worse than the i3 which had a tiny battery on a light car.
My daughter has model s p85, 2013 year, original battery range was 260 new she can still charge to 240 miles full. Hardly any degradation after 10 years.
REALLY useful report. Nice work
Wish you guys would of touch on if you did have to replace a battery what would it cost? Also in 5 to 10 years do you think car batteries would get cheaper to replace.
The 8 year/100K mile warranty mostly eliminates that. Beyond that it is just like any old car. Have it checked very well before buying it. Most will easily go 200+ miles issue free but there will be some that were not treated well.
It’s like Jim Farley said at ford their electric cars and trucks are basically like a jetliner now they can be rebuilt and used again and again because there’s so few moving parts like an ice vehicle
Come do a preflight with me 😂
The same Jim Farley that allowed an iconic and historic name (Mustang) to be used on an EV which literally pissed off 1/2 of Fords legacy owners? The same Jim Farley that lost the company 3 billion dollars on EV's in 2022 alone? The same Jim Farley that thinks woke EV's are more important than building small economic trucks (the Maverick) that has a demand rate 10 times higher than Fords ability to produce them because Ford is retooling and pushing most of its workforce into EV's losing the company money? That Jim Farley? He's a bum.
I have a 2014 Spark EV that i bought used in 2017 with just 800 miles on it! Now with almost 40k, the range is way down, maybe 20% less. Waiting on warmer weather to try to stretch it out and test the range. No wonder GM replaced the A123 battery with LG...
I love my EV but the main problem with battery warranties that they don’t tell you is that they it has to be below 70 percent of original capacity. That to me is quite low before they will replace your battery. I think it should be 80 percent as the bare minimum. At least my car is 70 percent. So before they would consider a warranty battery my range would go from 274 to 192. That’s a huge reduction in range for a warranty replacement.
They told me that
@@hikikomori69 I hear you but it’s not very transparent information when you look at the websites of these cars. It should be insanely transparent in my opinion. I personally knew about it too due to the massive amount of research I did but a lot of customers may not know this since it’s not very transparent or they didn’t ask. No one should have to ask in my opinion.
I was aware of this battery warranty statement and I think it's something that the government regulators need to step in and control as mass adoption ramps up. It's the same rule with Mitsubishi on the outlander PHEV. That's a 30% allowable reduction in range before they consider it defective enough to replace. If I was to purchase a ICE model with 27 mpg rating and Mitsubishi's warranty stated that they would not replace the engine under warranty until it drops down to 21 mpg, I would walk out of the dealer and report the manufacturer to the EPA.
I love the idea another commenter had. They should make the batteries as large as they can and then partition off a portion of the battery to be slowly released overtime so that the original range can be maintained throughout the batteries life cycle. Look, nobody walks into a dealership and asks the salesperson how large is the fuel tank is, they only care how efficient the vehicle is and how far they can go on a full tank. The size of the EV battery has no business being on the spec sheet, we should only be concerned with the overall efficiency of the vehicle and the overall range on a full charge. Manufacturers should make every effort to maintain that overall EV range throughout the lifecycle of the vehicle and/or battery. Furthermore, the stated range should be at a standardized temperature that is more realistic. For instance, vehicle X is rated at 330 km at 0°c or 220 km at -15°c.
Very interesting discussion!
Thanks. This was encouraging.
The downward trend of battery cost over time also has to be taken into consideration when looking at the cost of battery replacement. GM says they have reduced battery cost from $1k/kwh in the Volt to $100/kwh in their latest vehicles. So if you buy an EV today, 10 or 15 years down the road, a replacement could be so cheap that it is no longer an issue.
GM and LG Chem recalled the batteries on the Bolt mainly for the hysterical media coverage the fires were receiving. There were in fact 19 fires in the 140,000 Bolts that were produced.
The other side of this is that in 10 years your vehicle is so obsolete that no one would want it, like a blackberry phone
@@michaelcharach
Any vehicle, regardless of power source - as long as it runs, somebody will want it.
The idea of battery costs going down in the future is a pipedream.
Ten years ago, tesla replacement battery was $16K. Now it's $22K and rising.
I’m driving a 2015 Nissan leaf base model that was not equipped with the fast charging option. It has 70,000 miles on it and it’s still capable of getting about 88 miles of range if you’re easy on it. 70 something if you’d like the air conditioning…
2012 volt still 30 miles on a charge after 90k miles. Great car
What about the Mach e? I'd like to know how it stacks up as we're into model year 3 now.
If the Mach-e pack was having any issues, you would have heard about it. Anti-EV rhetoric travels fast. As for degradation, it probably has the normal initial bit of loss and is doing just fine.
I wouldn’t worry about the battery versus the mess of hoses on top or and surrounding the motor in the Mach e. Ford quality is crap and numerous hoses on the F series trucks have issues with crimps breaking.
The study you quote talked about only 1.5% of their groups EVs needed a battery replacement but this is deceptively higher than you may think because we are talking about cars that are less then 3 years old and average only 1.5 years old. EVs have been in very limited production until 2020 when the Tesla Model 3 came out and then many others arrived that were popular but the average EV is only about 1.5 years old. The 1.5% might be mostly the older Leafs and Model S cars but if this also applied to cars only 1.5 years old you'd have to be shocked that any needed to be replaced.
my biggest concern of EV's is the control of the makers of the car has over the end user. also i have major concerns on the used car market in 20 odd years when these cars become paper weights.
In 20 years there will be a whole industry supporting these EV's. There are companies doing this in Europe already. North America is slower to adapt. In less than 15 years, like it or not, there will be no new ICE vehicles being produced. The world is shifting towards electrification. There will be 3rd party repairs and replacement, for sure.
What percentage of cars from 1993 do you think are still on the road today? 🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@conchobar there are about 14 million cars on the road today that are at leat 25 years old
what percentage of IC engines are replaced in the first 10 years of operation? Valid question I think.
Lol I put 6000 miles on my GM 6.2 V8 before it had to be replaced. Less than a year btw. Pretty common issue too😂 lots of engines have issues, even the ones with minimal issues still have lemons.
I have more confidence in my EV battery lasting the term of my car than a gasoline engine. Ave. ICE vehicle lasts 164k mils before they die, that’s average. I owned a Nissan 200sx that had the engine catch on fire, while I was driving it, with 150k miles, and burned down. Totaled. My mom’s Buick Regal through a rod through the engine block at about 90k miles. Totaled. There are numerous EV’s on the road today with 500k miles, and still running at ~90% battery capacity.
The ICE cars you mentioned were very old models. Today's vehicles can easily go 150 to 200K if you do your maintenance. The average age is 13 years old now and still going strong.
Thank you for the video. am considering buying a Bolt EV used. It will be my first EV.
i don't know any EV owner that plans to go back to ICE, i started with 2017 nissan Leaf and it was a perfect commuter and around town vehicle. This car turn to be family favorite. Since 2020 we replaced the second ICE car with Tesla Y and now we have road trip vehicle. Never missed the ICE!
Great video guys
I am a huge electric car enthusiast. I've had three EV's so far and two of them have had their batteries replaced. Fortunately, under warranty.
You seem to overlook that these resaults about replacements are worthless, or at BEST, only tell part of the story. As you mention that a replacement battery a battery pack for a Nissan Leaf costs around $33,000, which seems to be right, and for some EV's they are even more expensive. The problem is that these batteries are so expensive that they only get replaced under warranty. Very few people are going to invest that kind of money in a battery for a car that worth a lot less than that. These cars will simply be scrapped. So I will tell anyone I care about, buy your electric new and trading it for a new one when it's still under warranty.
And also: You did not metion the very dubious 30 kWh Leaf, only 24, 40, and 64. Is there no data about those?
What about an ev that spends it life in winter climates, hoe long will the batteries last then 🤔
Need to differentiate between faults and wear. If a single block in a Leaf or Tesla is significantly weaker it drags the overall apparent range performance but it can be addressed by a specialist with a module swap which, for a Leaf, might cost as little as £500, mostly labor. Wear is when most of the modules are degraded which is where whole battery replacement is the only option. Of course, the more miles you cover, the more likely a faulty module might occur.
Also, as you said, a battery may remain usable for shorter journeys at much lower state of health than is the commonly used failure point of 70%. Even at 40% SoH, a "240m range" EV can cover nearly 100 miles which is more than a 24kWh Leaf could do when new.
Yes. As an early adapter I bought a 2011 Leaf. 11 years later, I had 38 miles on my guess-o-meter, and 6 bars left. According to LeafSpy, my SOH was 46%. So I traded it in. Bought an FF Energi. PHEV
The manufacturers of EV’s today are gearing all the advertising towards the original buyer. The second hand EV market will be limited to “in town” or local use.
The average consumer, or Joe Sixpack won’t be buying electric anytime soon, because of the complexity of the process, and the cost. $65,000 is too much money, when they can still drive the 20 year old Ford Taurus or Chevy around. That is also why state government wants to use scare tactics to frighten people into thinking that gasoline powered cars won’t be sold after X date.
Battery capacity deterioration is a process that not just effect the distance but power as well.
The process of deterioration that was not covered by this video is a growth of dendrites that will cause a failure of the battery. That means the 10+ years old ev will be parts or junkyard value.
Great data! I wonder how the data would look vs ICE data?
Friend's 2016 Focus just died with 115k mile. Transmission and engine issues. Around $8k to fix. So yea, ICE cars fail and have pricey repairs.
American cars are trash
That and the Focus is crap
You hit the nail on the head. The early low range EVs are what created the battery replacement concern.
I bought a 2012 Leaf and used it to commute. My commute used about %80 of the battery but when I lost about %20 of my battery after 5 years, I didn't feel confident to use it to commute anymore. So, we gave the leaf to a friend of ours whose daughter just needed a car to commute back and forth from the local college. I then bought a chevy bolt as a replacement commuter. Now if the battery degrades %20, I still will have no issues with my commute.
My personal experience attests to the truth of what Tommy and Roman are saying. Our 2009 Ford Escape Hybrid (not a full EV) is still going with no battery issues at 200K+ miles. You can’t get an “official” battery health rating according to my Ford dealer, but the mileage is still as good as when it is new, which tells me the battery is still operating at a high level.
Chevy dealer is the same way...no battery health reports. I showed them that my iPhone can tell me the battery health why cant the car? service writer was like🤷♂