Woke "Compassion" vs Real Compassion
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- Опубликовано: 10 сен 2024
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I really needed this today Brad. I’m looking to re-engage with Zen after some time away and it has been tough to find practice centers who aren’t overtly political related to certain issues. As a centrist, independent voter this creates a challenging environment to find folks who just want to sit and focus on traditional Zen. Thanks again…breath of fresh air🙏
Even at my local Zen center in Michigan they spend more time talking about trying to fix the world and be good bodhisatvas than they do about ending want, aversion and identification. When I listen to their dharma talks, I feel like I'm watching a christian sermon without jesus rather than the dharma.
HOW DARE THEY GIVE A SHIT ABOUT HELPING PEOPLE!
@@Hyndergogen9
Yes, how dare they...Buddhism teaches that the help one receives from others is largely futile.
Research the group most noted for their aggressive world-fixing metaphysics, and maybe a key piece of the puzzle will fall into place.
I’m from Michigan as well. Which zen center is it?
@@Teller3448Feeding someone who is hungry is not futile.
The "Woke" concept reminds me of the hippies who threw dog crap at returning vietnam soldiers and called the baby killers. Fast forward to the early 90's and they realized how much of a buch of a holes they were and apologized. Oops.
I've noticed this amongst positivity groups online. They're positive...as long as you think exactly as they do.
They encourage 'diversity'...except where you disagree with them.
Unfortunately had the same experience with an online sangha where if you say something which is not in line with some of the "top voices".
Yep. "We're tolerant of views that are just like ours."
just like conservative groups.. that dont allow you to join unless you are american, white, conservative and racist (im serious, look at the requirements for R/Conservative's social joining and to get the ability to comment)
@@nikoappsmuggred7220 Not the same. Those groups are explicitly exclusionary. Positivity and Zen are supposed to be "inclusive."
Trungpa called it idiot compassion
It sounds like the issue here is with 'performative' compassion, if the qualms are about doing 'compassionate' things to show others how 'good' you are, versus the merit of the actions/intent behind the actions themselves.
Sure, the letter-writing campaigns are strange, but what if that is the most 'natural' way to enact compassion - that is, an attempt to reduce suffering for others. Not everyone has the same means or ability to enact compassion in their everyday lives to have effect on others.
It just seems like solely focusing on criticising performative actions without addressing the aim to reduce suffering in the world just panders to a certain demographic and doesn't try to understand suffering of any marginalised people at all, and why Buddhist groups might seek to address these (whether skillfully or not)
"suffering of any marginalised people at all"
Buddhism teaches that people marginalize themselves...through the miracle of karma.
Don't worry Brad, there are lights in the darkness. We may be few but we'e still burning.
Interestingly, the word COMPASSION doesn't mean ending suffering...it means 'to suffer together'.
Compassion comes into the English language by way of the Latin root “passio”, which means to suffer, paired with the Latin prefix “com”, meaning together - to suffer together.
Then add in the complication of applying an English word to a Buddhist concept and you have a recipe for confusion and misinterpretation. In this case, we have to take the word compassion and understand it as a placeholder for the original 'native' meaning.
@@simoncastleton6420
The original Pali word for compassion is 'Karuna' and its what I would call a subtractive word.
Meaning that Karuna is the will to remove or subtract harm and suffering from others.
This is what makes it different from the word Metta...which is the will to give or bestow happiness on others.
The founder describes these two as qualities which are radiated in every direction throughout the cosmos just like the sun radiates light. This is what it means to be en-light-ened.
Yea, because when you see someone being beaten with a stick you just stand there and say ouch ouch ouch and leave them to it. Hmmm.
The Latin words are actually _cum_ (which means "with") and the deponent verb _patior_ (which means "to suffer").
It is with respect that I submit that the word woke is at best a blunt tool and at worst something better left unsaid. I do also suspect a broader, institutional sort of gestalt of militant inclusivists who tend to be fairly exclusive and cause of no small trouble in the world. But it should be noted that most are desperately caught on the precipice of societal collapse and justifiably angry at often less justifiable targets. Bugs in a jar will fight when shook. People pushed to the edge of their endurance will lash out. Not justifying it, but hoping to point out that people as a whole are also a natural force and can be pretty indiscriminate in their destruction when too much energy is introduced into the system. It's perhaps easier for me to be philosophical about it, people who could be counted amongst their number have been gotten comfortable saying slanderous things about and to you and all they have done to me is be annoying on the internet. As for the proper political conduct of zenfolk however, I totally agree that the focus of the institution should be zen and the focus of the individuals should be their own. Separation of church and state and all that. There, just what you always wanted, the unsolicited opinion of another random internet crank.
Brad, thank you for talking about this. I appreciate your perspective on this subject.
Spot on as usual, Brad! I think you really brilliantly hit the nail on the head tying the modern "Woke" culture to an excuse for aggressive behavior. I've personally found it rather distasteful that this crowd has chosen the word "WOKE," which tends to imply that they are "Awakened" which is what it means to be a Buddha! They are nowhere near that!
Several years ago, I gave up my subscriptions to "Lion's Roar" and "Buddhadharma" magazines because it seemed like almost every article was about "White Guilt," "Transgender issues, " "LGBTQ+ issues," etc etc, and really nothing that had anything to actually do with BUDDHISM!
So, I've read just about all your books, and I find other sources that are informative, educational, and instructive so that I may effectually and with equanimity walk the Buddhist path with true wisdom and compassion.
Thank you for being such a voice of reason out there, bravely saying the things you're saying. 🙏
Hey mate, show me some compassion here because I think you are full of it.
Chogyam Trungpa called it "idiot compassion"
Chogyam Trungpa was an abuser.
I feel that you are an abuser as well.
Thank you for saying out loud what has bounced around my head for a while. You're correct that this is a huge problem and the main reason I've been sitting alone for several years. And you're also correct, I believe, to be pessimistic about American Buddhism's direction, which is sad. Keep speaking the truth, though. It's needed now more than ever.
It seems like zazen changes nothing about your personality.
It reveals your true personality...but only after years of dedication.
I've been reading Tara Brach and she has some interesting Buddhist perspective on what "real compassion" is. There are people who are annoyed and upset by what these "woke" western Buddhists are doing. But compassion means understanding that these people are acting out of hurt, fear and anger at what is happening, and they are acting in ways that make them feel like they have some control in an seemingly increasingly dangerous world. Reacting in anger against these people won't solve the problem. I guess you can reject these people and create an alternative "correct" Buddhism or just accept that these people will destroy Western Buddhism, or maybe there are more constructive ways to engage people like this, from a place of empathy.
Wow! Well said! I so agree!
I've put Brach in the trash after listening to too many of her talks where she references various political positions and, most infuriatingly, assumes that they're not political positions.
There's a quote from the Tao that applies here:
"Unencumbered by any concept of sin, the Master doesn't see evil as a force to resist, but simply as opaqueness, a state of self-absorption which is in disharmony with the universal process, so that, as with a dirty window, the light cannot shine through."
@@mrcat4643 The fact that someone on a Buddhist site can refer to another being as trash is disheartening.
@@cathyanne1401 If that's what you think is happening, I'm not sure I have the energy to explain idiom.
What you're talking about isn't compassion, it's activism. I'm not a huge fan of activism at a place of worship. I want to either pray or practice, not be pushed to a particular political view. This isn't just a problem with Western Buddhism, but also Evangelical Christianity. In fact, the politicization of Christianity has driven many of the moderates away, leaving behind the radicals to run the show. I think what you're seeing in Buddhism is more a sign of the times, maybe as lefties sick of right wing Christianity try to find a home somewhere else, and act out their grievances in there new home.
However, the Civil Rights movement was run out of churches. Martin Luther King Jr. was a Baptist preacher. Black churches have a history of "wokeism" through liberation theology (remember the "God Damn America" sermon that got Obama's pastor in trouble)? "Woke" in fact originated in the Civil Rights movement, long before the 21st century. Compassion didn't create the changes, activism did.
I agree with what you say here (if i have it right) i think what Brad is saying is (if i have it right) is his flavor of Buddhism does not include blatant political activism as compassion - that Buddhist compassion falls more along the lines of a right-here-right-now what's in front of you quiet compassion that just happens instinctually(?) naturally(?) - not as part of a planned agenda - yeah ok go write letters but don't say Buddha wrote the letter 😂
@@paulengel4925 but if you have laws that oppress people, for example: laws that create school segregation, isnt it compassionate to act to end the suffering that is caused from this kind of oppression?
Woke compassion reminds me so much of Christians trying to "save" people. There are good intentions, but it is "aggressive" as you say and IMHO not helpful. Real compassion reminds me of the Jewish Maimonides’ Eight Levels of Charity where one of the highest forms of charity is "to give to the poor without knowing to whom one gives, and without the recipient knowing from who he received."
Wokeism is reminiscent of Christianity because it essentially is its own religion, complete with in-groups and out-groups, saints and sinners, punishment and ostracism for heretics, even its own concept of original sin.
Totally agree with you. One of my Zen teachers in Japan told us once "I don't need any politicians at all, my temple will not be involved with any politics". I respect him so much for that.
Thank you Brad, for making this vid.
Regarding the problem of politics, political correctness, or wokeness in a Sangha or Dharma hall discussion: Why is it present at all?
A question that I've been contemplating for a while, this balance between samadhi and samsara...where is it?
And what is the underlying purpose of having a sangha at all?
Simple, study the Dharma through sitting together, talking about the dharma, nothing more or less.
Manifesting true compassion doesn't require 'activism', being seated correctly, just is, and balance follows.
The Underground Zen movement, sounds like a good idea, political correctness and activism has spread to the Centers, at least the ones that I've researched.
Lately it seems that Buddhism is becoming similar to how Taoism was distorted and used as a means of supporting government power, pushing religious virtue into family/community life as a means of controlling the populace and holding onto power.
Will there be a American version of Zen Buddhism?
I hope so, Zen provides a means of 'seeing' the world more clearly...and we definitely need more 'clearly' in America.
Please show off Ziggy more...such a cute dog :)
Honestly, it's not a surprise where things have gone. Buddhism has always appealed to white Western liberals, and white Western liberals are currently captured by woke ideology. How they think their condemnatory, identitarian, authoritarian divisiveness has anything whatsoever to do with Buddhism is beyond me.
I'm a Pure Land Buddhist (who explores other Buddhism traditions). Born & raised in the Midwest, like you & we're also close in age. I've never met a left wing Buddhist IRL. Those who've claimed to be that, upon further conversation, are Buddhism intrested...they've read a book, enjoy Buddhist art (Tattoos) & disdain Christiananity - - but rarely if ever practice, couldn't name a single sutra etc. No worries. Buddhism by it's nature is very traditional & conservative. The chaff will find it's way out quite natrualy. The academics you speak of are NOT American Buddhist leaders. Western Academics & Buddhism go together like peanutbutter & motoroil.
Woke-ism seemed to me to start out as a form of idealism that soon became imbalanced.
Once something becomes divorced from reality it naturally becomes imbalanced.
Why can’t people learn from history?
It took a long time for Buddhism to come into existence.
Why blind ourself to its truths?
Didn’t it have something to do with ‘the middle way’?
Thank you Brad, for transmitting Gudo Nishijima’s Wisdom!
Thanks!
Wokeism started long before millennials got their hands on it. I believe the first reference to "stay woke" was Marcus Garvey in the 1920s to "stay woke" to social injustices to fight the system that was actually oppressing black people. If "woke" seems imbalanced, maybe it is a reaction to how imbalanced the world is today. Black people are still suffering from police brutality, students are in crippling debt, wage stagnation has made wages shrink due to rampant inflation, health care and housing costs are astronomical. People want to fight this system of increasing inequality, and maybe aren't going the right way about it. But "woke" isn't a joke, it's deadly serious. Persistent social imbalance can lead to social upheaval.
@@dukebanerjee4710 Shouldn’t spiritual teachers be more concerned with giving everyone access to the best spiritual teaching available? Regardless of their material or social situation?
My impression is that the Buddhist Temples in America are trying to compete with the Christian Churches in terms of being: ‘Holier than Thou’ by helping out the poor and downtrodden in terms of their material and social well-being. The problem I see for both of them is they are focusing on such ‘good works’ rather than inculcating the true spirit and mind-set of their own religious approach. Viewing the political landscape in terms of ‘they are evil & we are good’ goes directly against the grain of Buddhism. How is it possible for Buddhist leaders not to see that?
I am all for doing ‘good works’ but what happens when that becomes the only measure of merit? Perhaps we need a new religion that simply teaches us to ‘be good for goodness sake’ and undermine anyone that gets in our way. Oh, on second thought, we don’t need that, it seems to be already facing us, on both the Right and Left. Why then do we even need religion, when we’ve got Politics?
- It doesn’t make me angry.
It just makes it easier to see the shadows on the wall of Samsara.
@@JimTempleman I'm Hindu, so I might have a different perspective. Central to Hindu spiritual practice is "seva", service to God, which ultimately includes helping the poor and downtrodden with their basic material wellbeing. That is because we are all "God", the ultimate Self that is our original being, and through ignorance and delusion, we see ourselves as small, individual selves. Thus, serving others is critical to break the ego by seeing everyone as the same as us, and when someone else is naked and hungry, we too are naked and hungry. By helping the poor and downtrodden, we help ourselves. Jesus taught the same, "truly he who does for the least of these does for Me". When anyone uses service to "pat themselves on the back" in Hinduism we would say negates any good karma they could have received.
In Buddhist practice, metta is cultivated by thinking empathetically of others. May all beings be happy. May all beings be free from anger, pain and suffering. May all beings live with ease. May all beings be filled with peace, joy, and compassion. What better way to cultivate loving-kindness by actually helping others, instead of merely wishing it in meditation? In Buddhism, intention matters. If you undertake this as a spiritual practice, you can develop compassion and gain merit. If your intention is wrong, you replace compassion with ego and lose any merit.
The mistake is to see "good works" as a measure of merit (as a function of ego), but as a tool, mindful of the right intentions, to develop spiritual practice, and merit is just a byproduct. Not something to be measured or taken as a goal.
Politics is another matter. I think politics ruins everything and want nothing to do with it. But, I also realize that I am a privileged position. The Civil Rights movement was all about politics, and blacks realized that if they didn't engage politically (stay woke), politics would be used against them to further their subjugation. Liberation theology arose in the black church, because black spiritual leaders believed that the church could be used to galvanize people to achieve political change.
@@dukebanerjee4710 ‘What better way to cultivate loving-kindness by actually helping others?’
Yes, but what is the best way to help others?
My only point is that spiritual teachers should focus on spiritual teaching: by instruction and by example. That’s pretty much ‘all’ Bodhidharma did.
Virtue signaling vs virtuous conduct. And you are right, it's not so much about signaling as it is about POLICING behavior. It also comes against any kind of discernment because it's automatic. No need for any practice except repeating the "party" line.
Thank you for this video. I get very frustrated when people who profess compassion behave this way. I've never been able to reconcile compassion with aggression, and I've always felt there is more strength in being quiet than in being loud, and that seems very counterintuitive to most people. The line you quoted from Dogen which you render as "Don't be a jerk" is very inspiring to me, because it can feel easy to give up sometimes. It was very vindicating and validating to listen to you today.
Hypocrites are found in all movements. Being woke to social injustice is not a bad thing in itself, obviously.
Ego-driven compassion is worthless, regardless of our definition of it.
What is it that is compassionate...if not the ego?
I admit to being very skeptical of the questioner's narrative of this letter writing. Apparently there are in fact "Engaged Buddhist Letter Writing Retreats". Very weird. But I suppose if you don't want to write letters, don't sign up.
But this leads me to one of my personal struggles with my own practice. Perhaps Brad or someone else can give me some perspective: I'm an elected official. And I was when I began my practice in earnest. While in this role I do feel like it's my responsibility to stand up for certain perspectives, push back against some ideas, and "correct the system" to some degree. Aka "play politics". I find myself conflicted a lot between voicing opinions for the "greater good" and playing nice with people. Quite often this greater-good speech is a someone's expense, e.g. "if you want policy X, you'll need to vote out person Y" or "bad thing A happened because of person B's actions." How does someone in a position of power practice Engaged Buddhism for the system's benefit without operating contrary to some of Buddhist ethics?
Think I needed to hear this one today. Sometimes the perpetual cycle of inflicting suffering on each other needs to be interrupted by someone willing to step back and ask why it's happening.
Currently going through a family crisis with one sibling insisting on exclusive rights to see the father and disowning everyone else, when the father wishes to see all his children during his declining health. Just as bad as the bible nuts who raised me with their judging and shunning policies.
It's tricky though, knowing when to take a step back to see the big picture, and knowing when to stand your ground, because there are times for both.
I'm pretty new to Buddhism. I've had a passing interest in it my whole life, but I've only been seriously studying and practicing for about a year, and somewhat inconsistently at that. I have conflicted feelings about this issue. On one hand, I really do think that some major causes of suffering in the world are systemic problems needing systemic solutions, solutions that most would label as political. Religion sometimes plays an important role in advocating for positive social change, such as MLK's use of Christian rhetoric and symbolism during the American Civil Rights Movement. And, assuming their concern is genuine, someone advocating for policies they genuinely believe will reduce suffering in the world would seem to me to be a compassionate person. On the other hand, I don't think someone should be excluded from Buddhism just because they don't share all of my opinions about every issue. If someone is earnestly interested in pursuing capital T "Truth," who am I to gatekeep religion? I'm not really interested in an argument or "debate," but I would appreciate it if others shared their views.
It sounds from the email that the person excluded themselves. But is that not okay? Buddhism isn't a monolith where if the SFZC turns you off, then you're excluded from all of Buddhism. It's like what they say about Christian Church. You have to shop around until you find one you're comfortable with. Some people like a political church, some people prefer laid back churches with cool bands, some prefer hardcore theology, etc. etc.
You are not wrong. Keeping it real.
After I fix myself, then I will tackle the world. Until then, I will try my best to be a quiet example. I am practicing Buddhism.
Many thanks to Brad for covering this topic. It always seemed antithetical to Zen when progressive moralism is the assumed position to adopt if you practice.
While I wholeheartedly agree about compassion being its most effective at its least celebratory, there has yet to be a variant of COVID-19 that isn’t susceptible to the vaccines in preventing severe infection / hospitalization. Isn't promoting that compassionate? Especially towards those who wake up without a sore neck, but curse their arm for being in a different position?
The point is that it should have always been voluntary, not mandatory. People practically wanted to create a caste system separating the vaccinated from the untouchables. It was all fed by irrational hysteria more than it was a concern for safety. Those who refused the jab received death threats. What does that say?
@@3ggshe11s You're conflating reaction with choice. It was, and is, an available choice to get vaccinated (or not), just as it's an available choice to require proof of vaccination (or shoes, or a ticket) to access your concert, convention, or temple. We can't control the choices of others, but we can control how we react to them. A harmful reaction doesn't always reflect a harmful choice. You don't have to look hard to find videos of threats and violence by those who don't want to be jabbed or masked, but does that merit a sweeping condemnation of the choice itself?
8:00 Brad makes such a good point. Why don't American Buddhist leaders know better here? They used to know better when excesses of overidentification or over-aggression were happening. Why can't they feel the over-aggression now? Is it because of self-inflicted guilt from the left?
I'm wondering how you regard Thich Nhat Hanh or Aitken Roshi? I particularly appreciate Aitken Roshi's teachings. To me, he is the very model of how one can incorporate the ethical teachings of Buddhism into life practice.
There are at least a couple of definitions of "woke", so I think it's problematic to set "woke compassion" in contradistinction to "real compassion". By at least one definition of "woke", "woke compassion" is the same as "real compassion". But, even if, definitionally, we assume that "woke compassion" is "phony compassion", I'm not sure it's correct to say that the root of phony compassion is always aggression. I would guess that phony compassion is more often simply feigned compassion, performative compassion meant to place one safely in a certain social realm, to fit in with a certain (liberal) crowd. I detest that kind of wokeness precisely because it's not authentic. But it's also true that wokeness can be rooted in fear. That type of wokeness can seem aggressive or militant even though it may really just be a means to defend against further victimization. But, in any event, I think it goes (way) too far to suggest that social engagement is always (or, even, usually) driven by wokeness or phony compassion or, even, aggression. For example, if a candidate for elected office has announced the intent to jail young, immigrant children at the border, separating them from their family, I could hardly argue that anyone who objects to that plan is driven by some form of aggression. And if Buddhists who object believe that some of the votes they need to defeat such a candidate could be found among fellow Buddhists, I would not assume that their compassion for those children is somehow "phony" or cultish simply because the means they have chosen is political action. To be sure, there are those who will use faux outrage as a means to signal membership in one political tribe or another, and there are those for whom outrage of some kind -- any kind -- meets deep psychological needs to vent anger that cannot be otherwise vented in a socially accepted way. But that is the bathwater with which we should not cast out the baby. Buddhism does not lose its soul by being socially engaged. It loses its soul by failing to generate in practitioners authentic compassion and by failing to translate that compassion into (skillful) action on behalf of those who suffer. That is, the authentically woke are Bodhisattvas. Everyone else is a poser... or dead.
Oh boy. You must have hated President Obama.
@@HardcoreZen Yeah, he uses the term to connote intolerant and unthinking liberal tribalism. And, then, on the political right, the term is used as if any awareness of injustice is necessarily intolerant and unthinking liberal tribalism. It's a term that, in its multiple meanings, lends itself to abuse, which is why I don't use it. But I'm sure its use in a crowd of Buddhists gets plenty of clicks. 😉
What ...like, literally what does Obama have to do with this person 's comment?
@@briandavid8691 Oh, it's just that Obama often uses the term "woke" derisively. But, yes, it's largely a non-sequitur. The truth is, that the term "woke" has been so corrupted by purposeful misuse that, for many, it now means something it doesn't/shouldn't mean.
@@briandavid8691 i think Brad meant, properly, the former President. i can't find anything regarding the use of "woke culture" by the former President during his presidency until some time later in 2019; nothing during his two terms in office. "wokeness" has been a part of black American culture for a century or more but can't speak to "woke compassion". the tail comment of this song by the old blues singer/songwriter Lead Belly mentions it ("be a little careful when they go along through that bus station, stay woke, keep their eyes open": ruclips.net/video/VrXfkPViFIE/видео.html
I don’t know, Brad. The emailer’s message to you seemed pretty angry, aggressive, and smug to me, so who’s right, who’s wrong? I’m guessing the SFZC teachers were trying their best. SFZC’s practice is clearly an activist form of Buddhism that certainly doesn’t appeal to everyone. The underground/punk Buddhism that the viewers of your channel resonate with also doesn’t appeal to everyone, and there’s certainly an air of righteous smugness in many of the comments this video generated. So who’s right and who’s wrong? Great video, great thoughts, thanks for posting it.
"there’s certainly an air of righteous smugness in many of the comments"
If I told you the earth is NOT flat...with an air of righteous smugness.
Would you not believe me?
@@Teller3448 why would you need to be smug?
@@smolderingtitan Why would you need to identify smugness with falsehood?
@@Teller3448 I don't need to (and I don't) identify smugness with falsehood. I asked you a question about your example.
@@smolderingtitan "I don't need to (and I don't) identify smugness with falsehood."
Then why complain about it?
"Expects no reward"! Yes, that's the point.
Wouldn't real compassion also mean extending it to the people who are labelled as being woke?
you have so much reason! Buddhism in West is becoming toxic and secterian....
Thanks you, Brad. There are “woke” Buddhist teachers whom I like, despite not being woke myself. So I don’t want to be overly critical towards them. But I’m glad there are ppl like you who are speaking out against the excessive leftist politicization of the dharma. It’s good for there to be a diversity of viewpoints. Sometimes American Buddhism feels too much like a progressive social justice echo chamber.
The fact that video exists is a great case against any kind of “isms”, or “anti-isms”.
(including “against ism-ism” 😅)
Isn't this literally just "against ism-ism"? You're saying that people shouldn't try to have coherent philosophies? Does that include Buddhism?
@@Hyndergogen9 1- yes. A paradox.
2- maybe I worded my statement wrong and should have instead said that this video points out the problems in « ism » thinking. Although categories are needed for this world to turn and evolve, truth itself is formless.
3- yes. Buddhists sooner or later have to shed their skin to reach « buddhahood », like anyone else. Maybe buddhism can help some people though, but eventually it has to be forgotten, or removed.
Wish I could like this video twice.
Sorry to say this, but I feel like I have entered a den of conspiritualists (look it up).
Agreed with most, but it's the compassionate thing to ask people to be vaccinated if they want to meet up when there's a pandemic.
I can really feel the frustration and anger and than take a deep inhalation and exhale fully and the let it go. But when I think of it, man my fingers are itching 😬.
Thinking of a saying which goes, "Never trust a politician who tells you how to pray or a clergyman who tells you how to vote." There is a good deal of attention over some Christian churches which have political litmus tests, but as one who has been there twenty some years, it is becoming more common among Pagan groups both to the left and right. Sad if Buddhist groups become political gatekeepers to practice of the Dharma. Wonder how much is an inherent problem with institutions. Institutions form to further an idea or practice such as Buddhism, but often eventually become more about the institution, what benefits it's ends, what brings it attention and members, etc rather than the practice it was formed to teach
Being raised Catholic, I can confirm that this same kind of political gatekeeping runs rampant in Latin Mass circles. It's definitely not a problem unique to one "side." The only difference is that the woke left currently holds all the institutional power, while the right mostly finds itself shouting into the wind.
Great video, sad...but great as in someone of your level says this is refreshing. thank you.
Yeah the real truth about this world tends to hurt a bit when it's not just covered in a bunch of flowery bullshit.
Yes! I’m back with a second question! If the “major” Zen centers are no good, and I am not a fan anyway (like of the SFZC), but as you’ve noted many times, people who are serious about practice need a teacher and benefit from a sangha, where are we to go? Just curious! As a leadership scholar, I see many people complain about the leadership they have, yet none of them wants to assume any responsibility for providing an alternative.
Great question. I have the same. However, I also ask whether my need "for a teacher" stems from a social programming that says one needs a teacher whenever we are at one of the many cul de sacs of life. Why am I not, by myself, enough to seek answers without a teacher (as in a person) when all knowledge is codified and is to be validated by personal experience anyway?
The online Treeleaf Zendo. No politics allowed there.
@@jamesroberts469 well....not lately. If you followed the group from late summer through to late last year some bitter exchanges took place including a huge issue with some of the standpoints taken by the head. The ecodharma subgroup within it is particularly a hot place for political discussions.
@@photomukund The teacher helps to keep us grounded, questioning, and to challenge our delusions. Literally all the Zen masters advocate serious practitioners have teachers.
@@jamesroberts469 My work life is 100% online … and while I like Jundo, it’s not a good match for me on a permanent basis, at least right now.
I hate to tell you this but a lot of Theravadins think that traditional Zen isn't real Buddhism either. Buddhism has always gone through changes every time it moves into a new culture, be it China or Japan or whatever. American and European Buddhism is bound to manifest in some very unusual ways. I don't think we should be surprised by that. My teacher lived at San Francisco Zen Center for years and received dharma transmission there. But ten years ago he moved back to his native Ireland and established a temple there (Ingenji). I practice with his sangha remotely (I live in SF) and all of his talks, classes are pretty focused on Buddhism. Politics has rarely if ever been mentioned. I like it that way.
Nice tone there at the beginning
You can notice how little compassion moral people often have for others who do not conform to their own narrow ideas. But compassion is not measured by how compassionate you are towards people for whom you already feel great sympathy or the willingness to help, but above all towards the people you like the least and who seem to least deserve your compassion, precisely these people need it it the most. True love does not discriminate and has no conditions. It's easy to feel compassion for people in need or to take a stand against injustice, but the greatest rewards can come from developing greater understanding of the people whose actions and viewpoints we find most difficult to understand.
It's like a public display of courage that doesn't require any real courage. Such courage is pointless, if you are only courageous when you don't have to fear negative consequences, it is not courage at all. An example would be the protest for women's rights in Iran, which is courageous. However, protesting in the US to make the roads friendlier for drivers is a free act. Anyone who is only brave where it is easy is actually a coward, but does not want to appear as such in front of others. Similar is the case with compassion, when you can only show it to people you have an easy time with, and at the same time you are quick to lash out against or discriminate others you consider to be bad people, than you might not be such a good person either...
I think nowhere is the falseness of this dogmatic moralism better expressed than in Chapter 38 of the Tao Te Ching:
The Master does nothing,
yet he leaves nothing undone.
The ordinary man is always doing things,
yet many more are left to be done.
The kind man does something,
yet something remains undone.
The just man does something,
and leaves many things to be done.
The moral man does something,
and when no one responds
he rolls up his sleeves and uses force.
When the Tao is lost, there is goodness.
When goodness is lost, there is morality,
When morality is lost, there is ritual.
Ritual is the husk of true faith,
the beginning of chaos.
Therefore the Master concerns himself
with the depths and not the surface,
with the fruit and not the flower.
He has no will of his own.
He dwells in reality,
and lets all illusions go.
Well yes its true and i got sick and tired listening to some of the Buddhists centers blab about politics during meditation practices and their bashing of such and such , its totally NOT buddhist and it shows complete lack of compassion towards the other party not to mention Buddha would never condone such behavior and trashing of some politicians. I simply stoped attending and listening to some of those so called teachers ( americans mostly ) , this showed me that their teachings on expansions mean nothing because they do not practice what they teach ! Bunch of hypocrites
I wonder why you say that the shots "Don't protect others at all, anyway." It's pretty well-established they prevent serious illness and hospitalization; and less folks clogging up hospitals helps to protect burdened Healthcare workers and those they need to care for and protect for non-pandemic related illnesses. I can see what you mean in terms of the spread of COVID, but there are other consequences to consider with respect to protecting others.
In terms of the dao, woke disappears in a soft mind. Also, the very idea of mindfulness is opposed to the consumer ideas of narcissism and greed.
Thanks Brad I really liked this. It's a good thing that American Buddhism never became more institutionally powerful, because it means you are totally free to say what you say here. You're not free to use certain no-no words to discuss certain medical topics, because those institutions are very powerful. But you can call out institutional American Buddhism and they can't stop you! California never actually became uber alles, phew.
So far one of my fave videos of yours - tellin it like it is - as a lapsed Catholic not big on institutionalized anything - and gotta admit feels cool being part of the zen underground 😂- i'll keep staring at the wall and reaching for pillows in my quiet little corner of the world
Great video, I'm drawn to the endlessly quotable dune. "When religion and politics travel in the same cart, the riders believe nothing can stand in their way. Their movements become headlong - faster and faster and faster. They put aside all thoughts of obstacles and forget the precipice does not show itself to the man in a blind rush until it's too late." Honestly the same sort stuff is the rot at the heart of the evangelical movement right now as well. "When you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men … but when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your father who is unseen". My parents church actually did the same writing thing to try to get people to vote for Trump.
I'm currently going through the original series and it's so good. Still relevant all these years later, as any great work of fiction should be. And I agree, I'm pretty far left politically but I do notice a lot of people on the left behaving exactly like the weirdo religious fundamentalists they disagree with. Fighting fire with fire just gets you more fire.
Take refuge, live by the precepts and remember that everything must change.
At a time like this, our individual practices take a back seat to (or become) survival of democracy and the species. Spoken as a 47-year practitioner.
Great video! Fully agree.
so illuminating to hear about how the 2 aux. nervous systems manifest in the real world/conscious...
Awesome Television cover! 🤘
You cant blame them when they want to end suffering in the world when the religion they practice focuses on just that. Seems like a natural extension.
I can notice that american buddhism suffer from the same diseases than french zen buddhism.
But in fact, zen buddhism became ill from the moment they wanted to be named "buddhists".
To practice the way of the Buddha doensn't mean to wear the suit of a new identity called "buddhist", but to have a look inside ourselves and choose which way of being a conscient human being we want to live.
All the other stuff is just shining lights but not the core of the practice.
The Buddhist pantheon is not without its manifestations of aggression and wrath.
The Japanese image of Fudo Myoo holding a noose in one hand and a sword in the other is the best example.
His right hand is terrifying with a sword in it.
His left is holding a noose.
He is making a threatening gesture with his index finger.
And bites his lower lip with his fangs.
Kicking with his right foot
He is smashing the four Māras.
His left knee is on the ground.
Squint eyed, he inspires fear.
He points a threatening gesture at the earth.
Kneeling on the cap of his left knee.
He has Akṣobhya for his crest jewel.
He is of blue color and wears a jewel diadem.
A princely youth, Wearing Five Braids of Hair.
Adorned with all the ornaments.
He appears to be sixteen years old.
And his eyes are red...he, the powerful one.
The Shingon Buddhist temple in Seattle offers a monthly fire ritual in which people wtite their petitions on a stick of wood and the priest offers them up to Fudo Myo-o. Watching your desires being cast into the flames before the deity whose sword cuts through our pain and delusions is psychologically very arresting, more so with the hypnotic effect of the accompanying chanting and drumming.
Perhaps if some of these temples in question adopted a similar kind of practice, giving themselves an outlet to channel their energies, they wouldn't feel the need to push divisive politics in place of the dharma.
@@3ggshe11s What kind of 'petitions-on-a-stick' are not allowed???
This makes me remember the simplicity of Tolstoy's "The Three Questions"...Thanks Brad good vid. I know several people who are Quakers and all in their 70's and 80's and if they do a protest, a la anti-war or injustice, it's a silent vigil, maintaining a peace within and not venting their spleens. A protest of compassion and empathy rather than negativity and self-righteous sanctimony.
It’s not complicated: Buddhism cultivates insight, and wisdom, while woke just militantly declares what is right. If you just declare what is right without appreciating humbleness and wisdom, you are probably just being an egoist dogmatist.
Perhaps it is not obvious, but insight comes with a lot of humbleness. Compassion comes from knowing we all can fail, and knowing everyone has a path to experience. Of course, mediation practice is an important part of the path. Again, if it’s not obvious, you humbly see your mistakes during mediation. So, Buddhism says that compassion comes from getting past ego, seeing your mistakes, and living according to this view. And they provide vipassana mediation as an mental exercise for this process.
Wokeism is a intellectual political movement. Wokeism expressly perceives all oppression in society as a form of Marxist battle: factory owners oppress workers, men oppress women, whites oppress all others, straight oppress gay, etc. Then, as political Marxist theory instructs, the solution is revolution. Woke believes in militancy rather than being politically passive.
A question is, how do Woke identify and see the oppression? They do not feel it’s necessary to mediate or be humble. The identify oppression intellectually from a book, others’ accounts, and experience. Not practicing insight meditation, Buddhists would say, like all humans, their perception is tainted by ego, ambition, and pride. They then apply political theory. They force society to change by political means.
To the meditator, oppression becomes apparent to them from experience and observation carefully cultivated in meditation practice. They have compassion. They live in a way that does conforms to their insight. They think it’s good everyone walk this same path to insight.
Would a Buddhist be a militant post modernist? Marx thought religion was garbage. So did Buddha. A mind practiced in vipassana would insist that individuals cultivating humbleness and insight is essential to societal reform, and without it, only another form of oppression will come.
Why aren’t Buddhist countries havens of compassion? Well, it’s just not that easy to achieve.
But if the problem is that society has many forms of oppression, and that’s in people’s nature, how does the Woke activist you know they are not imposing another? Well, observe your motivations and actions and be honest and humble about what you see.
Thanks for saying the stuff im afraid to say in public.
I get what you're saying with the woke / aggression explanation, at least from a short-term view of the term 'woke'. And I agree that seasoned practitioners, centers and sanghas should stay clear of political preaching and recruitment. But if we're being totally honest with ourselves here and look back to the 60's and 70's (or even the 1840's with the suffrage movement and it's connections with occult eastern mysticism, Mahayana & Vajrayana mainly) we see the roots of 'wokeism' right there. Transcendence, oneness, equal rights, compassion (yes, even radical compassion), environmentalism etc. Hell, one could say postmodernism in a sense is the victory of these eastern influences that started to arrive in the west with the theosophical society etc, which exploded in the 60's with a big bang and seeded so many future generations which now is flowering, with varying beauty. The choice to slowly permeate all levels of society to be able to make any real, meaningful change was successful. Not openly doing missionary work and supporting specific parties but making the views and concepts openly available for all stratas of society. That's the power of core Buddhist concepts, they are not limited by dogma and religiosity but are fluid, timeless and free to appeal to both the believer and atheist, the left and the right. But, though in its ultimate view of emptiness (freedom) it may attract the right, the academic, the scientist, the atheist.. in its conventional view it will attract the left, the environmentalist, justice warrior, artist etc. and that is the prevailing zeitgeist in right now, ethics and compassion, and so these concepts will attract many who follow the trends, who then will trace these trends back to the roots of these concepts, which is eastern philosophies and ethics in many cases. So there will be a larger amount of 'conventional practitioners' who then will justify their basic dual-understanding of the teachings to merge politics with the practice.
Thomas Merton said similar things about the Christians of his day (and it's probably still relevant), that rather than actually living the life of Christ they would rather organise meetings, events and calls to action and pat themselves on the back for their virtuousness. Human nature I suppose.
Pure Gold. OMG! Kannon!!! Love Kannon! I guess I should watch whole vid before I respond! :) Thanks for sharing. :)
I heard about the death of Tom Verlaine at a concert in Halifax, Nova Scotia by a band named Sloan on Saturday. They are an amazing Canadian band (from Halifax, but now in Toronto). If you are not familiar with them, check them out! Two songs I suggest are Marquee and the Moon (which is when his death was mentioned even though the Marquee is also a Halifax club) and Losing California (and Money City Maniacs 'cause I can't help myself). I would describe them as generic rock but masters of it (and quite original) Also, my favourite song of the night was one of their punk songs HFXNSHC. I also agree with the video. I am very left wing, but I have friends who do not want the jab. We just don't talk about it. Incidentally, I don't know how one could consider either Republicans or Democrats as Buddhist. It seems to me they are Capitalists and that is in no way Buddhist. After all, the Buddha said his monks can't touch money and have to depend on others for their sustenance.
I love Sloan!
@@HardcoreZen I love you!
They are my second favourite band behind the Kinks. I asked you to play a Syd Barrett song and you did! Is it too much to ask for you to cover Sloan? They are Canada's Beatles after all hahhahaha
@@wilhelmmischief8416 Ugh get a room..........AND RECORD A COVER OF A SLOAN SONG :D Love them too ;)
@@mrcat4643 I love anyone who loves Sloan. You are welcome in my Sloan room
Great video! Good reminder atm since Im in conflict with my old employee 🙏🏽
Maybe buddhist on the far left want to to mix religion and politics just as christians on the far right, but it almost always go wrong.
Woke isn't a negative term it's being aware of racial prejudice and discrimination is society. There are some people on the far left that's being very aggressive that have some extreme opinions, it's wrong to say that everyone that's being aware of racial prejudice and discrimination or trying to stop climate change is on the far left or having the same opinions and behaviour.
Thank you for being real, Brad. A lot of people seem to have worms in their brains nowadays. Real compassion must be protected and defended, otherwise everything will fall apart more than it already has.
Yea, compassion is a minority thing. Let's protect it.
I'm pretty liberal but as a writer, I've had run ins with several cancel-culture people. Anyway, Helen Pluckrose has good commentary on how liberalism went off the rails in her book "Social (in)Justice." In most cases, what starts out as a good idea gets exaggerated to absurdity.
No my friend, it was never actually a good idea..Even though they might try to use some good ideas in their ideologies in order to get people to follow them, but think about it as more of a wolf in sheep's clothing. Why don't you go and actually research the whole history of the movement that you claim to follow and see who actually funds it..
@@axs-xq7cq I suppose you should make plain what you mean by "liberal"--this is a term which has taken on completely different connotation in the U.S. than it's original/classical form (e.g., Thomas Paine, Adam Smith, Tocqueville, etc)
Well said, Cheers
I found this very reassuring to be honest. Thanks dude.
Just for reference/background about Dan Leighton (copied from a blurb in one of his books from 2015): "TAIGEN DAN LEIGHTON is a Soto Zen priest and a dharma successor in the lineage of Shunryu Suzuki Roshi, having received transmission in 2000 from Tenshin Reb Anderson. He is the cotranslator and editor of several Zen texts, (...) Leighton is now Dharma Teacher of the Ancient Dragon Zen Gate temple in Chicago."
A breath of fresh air. Thank you for this ❤
Institutions always attract idiots , Kodo Sawaki talked about it ....
Fun intro! Even though you've said these things before, it had to be said again. I've run into this type of behavior at a few zen centers. The underground Zen Buddhism in the USA will weather the storm. SFZC turned me off from their offerings due to their extraneous projects like the one you mentioned. After looking for sesshins to attend, this type of group think infected a few places. Plus, I have witnessed practitioners patting themselves on the back in a few smaller settings. It left a bad taste in my mouth. However, my leftovers lunch today delighted my taste buds! Viva Ziggy!
Very good, thanks!
Institutionalized anything sucks anyway.
Underground goes to the roots.
Zazen Not Dead 😄
I'm not too familiar with woke culture. I'm not that active on social media. But isn't protecting minorities and vulnerable people common sense? Not something that "gives you likes"? 😅By the way, I really like your books and your cover songs. 🙂
Unless it's Jews, of course. These wokes protest for anyone they feel like in a self-entitled pursuit of admiration by others. They want to be praised and feel good about themselves only.
I was looking forward to hearing your take on this! Thanks!
Is that the Jimmy Page signature tele?
It is! I got it used and pretty cheap.
How is "woke" a synonym for "fake"?
Different versions of Buddhism
Tbh i think woke compassion stems from systemic ways of engaging with the world- everything is performative and surface when fame and money (capitalism) rules.
This is most welcome Brad, now I have to not get down on woke for a virtuous fix.
I said to someone recently that there are to ways to pick a fight. You can go out of your way to be offensive or you can go out of your way to be offended. The woke choose the latter. Either way they are looking for a fight.
Very well said Brad! Not to mention "Wokeism" is often used as a form of virtual signalling.
Whatever happened to that video you did a few years back about how suffering had become a type of social currency, and you'd noticed that people kept indulging in a game of comparative suffering... who's suffered more, who's the most oppressed in society... to get likes and sympathy on social media websites. I went looking for it, and I can't seem to find it anymore, which is kinda sad because it strikes me as being related to what you are talking about here regarding real compassion vs. fake compassion. It's kinda the flipside of the same coin. Without people going around saying "I've suffered more than you, I've suffered the most! I deserve your sympathy and your compassion more than anyone else!"... they really wouldn't be doing that if people weren't responding by going "Look what a good person I am, see how compassionate I am, aren't I a good person for doing this? See? Huh? Huh?"
Also, it would be nice to know I didn't hallucinate that entire video, because I really liked it.
"who's suffered more, who's the most oppressed in society... to get likes and sympathy on social media websites."
Yes this kind of victimlogy is now being used to validate every kind of opinion.
For example, if I say the sky is blue...but I cant claim any victimhood at the hands of oppression.
That means the sky is NOT blue.
Using term "woke" there days is being a jerk. This is now a go-to derogatory word used by right-wingers to describe anyone not thinking the same as them. And you should know better that you saying "wokeism" will make some people think you are turning right (which I don't think you do).
I think the definition of "woke" has changed considerably. But perhaps there is still a lingering association as you've described. So I'll see if I can find another way to describe what I mean.
"This is now a go-to derogatory word used by right-wingers to describe anyone not thinking the same as them."
If I say two plus two equals four.
And you agree.
Does that mean you are wrong...because you are thinking the same as me???
What is the proper term or expression to convey Brad's point without offending?
@@JimTempleman The woke crowd are 'perpetually offended'...especially by truth.
@@JimTempleman That's a great question. The meaning of 'woke' has gone through so many evolutions, you really have to listen carefully to understand the perspective of the person using it. I think it has taken the place of what used to be
so often described as 'politically correct'.
This is a real rabbit hole right now and being a centrist who leans right - I find the discussion makes me angry at specific people. I avoid social media because I just get mad when people are so polarized and both sides are so wrong. Just getting the news I have to do this who rigamarole choosing the source and identifying editorials and opinion pieces. In the end, I have decided not use the word woke anymore since it is so loaded and no one is sure what it means. If the SFZC is literally talking republicans vs democrats - it is biased, partisan and I believe that literally against the law. Which is why christian churches have always been so careful. If someone is disparaging someone else based on their skin color, it is bigotry. If it based on their sex, it is misandry or misogyny. I see misandry more these days. Depending on the content, it can clearly be hatred. If the government is censoring the truth about vaccines and intentionally telling falsehoods. It is censorship, fraud and deceit. I mention these because they kind of make up a lot of what people call 'woke'. It would be nice if our politicians would stop playing it up on both sides. I had jury duty the other day, a real slice of America, and there was not a hint of this in that diverse group. For me, I just have to be very, very discriminating about sources and interactions - I may miss some data here and there but it is worth it.
Technically, it's not against the law, as political orientation is not a protected class. But, it certainly is against the tax code, which can threaten their tax exempt status as a 501(3)c organization, if the IRS were actually serious about enforcing this aspect of the tax code (the Johnson Amendment). Churches have definitely not been careful about this, and have been more brazenly pushing politics from the pulpit. This is why many atheist organizations have been vocally calling to "Tax the Churches".
Thank you, I grew up in a church that was careful
@@johndavis_ I think most churches are normal. But there are an increasing number of pastors like Greg Locke who absolutely are not, and he represents an influential movement of Evangelicals who have turned Trump into some kind of Messiah, and preach that Democrats are demons. I don't think they mean this figuratively.
Ok, it was 35 years so thing also may have changed. Unfortunate since I was always appreciated the perceived church state delineation.
@@johndavis_ Same here. Unfortunately, there are historians like David Barton, popular in modern Evangelical circles, who claim that the separation of church and state is a liberal hoax.
Cheers. I think radical liberal Buddhism is annoying and politically bankrupt. But I also think the Dogen position is basically untenable in the 21st century under global capitalism. Causes and conditions, the dharma changes as history does.
Please do not speak like this Brad, in the future there will be countless beings as endless as the sands of the ganges who will understand, protect and revere these teachings.
It is important not to withhold the dharma when others are seeking it. It is our birthright, whether we are Republican or Democrat. It is incumbent upon those of us who are more to the left in our politics not to drive away those who may differ politically. The teachings of the Buddha are there for us all, and to drive away is to deny those teachings to a segment of the population. This is a grave error. Thank you for bringing this topic up.
My LGBTQ friends, family, and I are being actively harmed by actions taken by Donald Trump and Republicans. I lost my right to bodily autonomy last year thanks to Donald Trump's Supreme Court nominations and Republican politicians. It really sucks to see you waving this all away as "whatever Twitter is telling you to care about this week" and dismissing social justice movements as just "wokeism," "fake compassion," and an "excuse for aggression." Yeah. This video made me sad.
I'm all about the underground my friend, and many others are too. It's unfortunate that mainstream American Buddhism is going the way it is though, so "going against the stream" makes a lot of sense here. Do you think more contact from asian buddhism like Zen in Japan and Theravada in Thailand and Burma will be necessary to keep the lineage alive over here in the states? I'm already grateful to at least be aware of these things and not be following the masses so to speak. But I'm really interested in keeping the Dhamma alive and practicing authentic Buddhism, and I hope we undergrounders can all unite together to find the truth and express the truth some day. Thank you for your videos, much respect and much metta, be well!
"But I'm really interested in keeping the Dhamma alive and practicing authentic Buddhism"
What makes Buddhism authentic?
Anecdotally, I've spent time with Western Buddhist groups and in Buddhist temples populated by Japanse Americans. What I saw in the temples seemed much more authentic than what I saw among the Western "mindfulness" crowd. I don't think many Westerners have ever really grasped Buddhism. They treat it like some kind of self-help consumer product, or as a way to feel superior to those primitive Christians over there. You know, the "it's not a religion, it's a way of life" types. It's always been irritating to me the way Buddhism is treated in the West by Westerners.
@@Teller3448 I suppose it would depend on who you ask. But to me "authentic" Buddhism would be following the essential teachings in the suttas and focusing mostly on a simple Samadhi and meditation practice, living in harmony with the basic ethics of the path, and not allowing certain aspects of the Dhamma to be morphed and entangled with "woke-ness" and the such...but that's of course just my opinion and I'm sure you may have your own as well.
@@jahvarino1770 I agree...'authentic' means as it was originally conceived by the founders.
@@3ggshe11s "You know, the "it's not a religion, it's a way of life" types."
Thats how Buddhism started...as a way of life...not a religion.
But that WAY encompassed every second of one's life....not just a certain day of the week.
Fantastic video Brad! A sad truth about Buddhism, but thankfully you books and videos are there for those who are looking to establish a strong foundation!
When you meditate regularly and become more and more aware of people dying on the street. What are you to do? If there are laws that prevent you from feeding the homeless and relieve their suffering. What are you to do? Also, wasn't Buddha against the structure of the classes in India?
From my understanding at this point, the Buddha was never openly against the caste system in India. He did object to cruelty, corruption and abuse of power, but not to the idea behind the caste system itself, because different people have a different level of understanding and are good at different things, different karma, etc. A peasant cannot be a king - that is the reality. The Buddha himself was a kshatriya, a member of the warrior caste, and he had different approaches towards people of different backgrounds. Not to mention how he was respected by kings and nobles (so other kshatriyas), at least according to the Sutras. People from lower castes were allowed to follow the Buddha's teachings while still performing their social duties (in other words, not at the expense of their duties), or when they were old enough (45-50-ish) to retire from their duties and fully devote themselves. The caste system allowed older people to leave their caste and become Sannyasi, regardless of the teaching they chose. It was like in China - while you're young you follow Confuicianism, when you get old - you can devote yourself to Taoism. Some authors like Rene Guenon thought that Buddhism was an active anti-traditional rebellion against caste, but this view has been criticized by many other traditionalist authors.