Emptiness is only empty of inherent existence. It does not say that there is no self, only no inherently existing self. That somehow does not seem contradictory, even on an intellectual level.
Hm... Not really. You don't quite understand. Let me illustrate with an example. The sound of one hand clapping doesn't say there isn't a sound, but no sound inherent of itself. Understand the soundless sound and you will understand.
Katagiri’s (2011) “Each Moment Is the Universe” provides a paired description of self & no-self (existing in the phenomenal world & existing in the formless realm of timelessness). In his description we shift from moment-to-moment between the two. The subtitle of the book is: “Zen and the Way of Being Time” and it is Katagiri’s interpretation of Dogen’s Uji (Being-Time). Thus, we have (1) no-self, (2) self, and (3) the alternating combination of the two. This is the Threefold Truth of Tiantai: (1) All phenomena are empty. (2) Phenomena exist in a provisional manner. And (3) the middle truth: phenomena are both empty of existence & exist provisionally. But Katagiri actually explains how the combination takes place (in time & space)! This is always the case. But it isn’t always explicitly stated. So, when Dogen starts pointing out (spouting off about) all the implications of this, in a chapter focusing on another topic, it adds complexity on top of subtlety. Someone could write a book (trying) to explain why Dogen’s writings are so hard to follow. (Probably better to just try & explain his writings directly, as Brad does so well.)
I ran across the teaching about “milk” when I decided to sit down and actually READ an old sutra-which turned out to be the Nirvana Sutra, where Buddha talks about himself as an eternally existing, omnipresent force for the redemption of the whole cosmos and the True Self of all beings. It kind of blew my mind-especially because it was the pandemic and I had jacked up my sitting to a whole hour every day. The parable about “milk” has really stuck with me.
I think the word you were searching for instead of "diversion" was "digression." Thanks much for the reading/description regarding self/no-self and permanence/impermanence. This may sound weird, but it was a big relief.
Awesome acoustic song, great video - complimentary to a great podcast! This all just makes sense to me, honestly. A thing cannot exist without its opposite! And I agree - on a purely intellectual level, Zen and Buddhism overall are daunting; practice is direct experience that makes it intuitively “true”.
Thank you, Brad. I'd been slightly worried about the distinction between nondual Self and Budshist no-aelf, abd this makes it clear I shouldn't worry about it.
My experience of Buddhism is about holding two contradictory truths at once. Both are true in a way that can't be said or written, and only Epworth through zazen. I consider myself a part of the universe in the shape of a nihilist. I come from everything, I am nothing, and to both I will return.
Saved this one. I've bumped into this throughout my illustrious career of loving the sutras, the koans, the poetry, the point, Dogen immensely... One gets a sense of making leaps and bounds in just sitting, like a smidgen, when one takes note of its rapture, but, when one does not, it is like bounty of no bounty. And Yet, I've had to wrangle myself into a practice of Zazen once more. Seeking a Sangha this time ❤️🌎🙏🏻🧘♂️
This is a bit confusing, Brad, because that quote from the Nirvana Sutra doesn't say at all what Ziporyn claims it says. To occasionally refer to self as part of upaya, skillful means, is nothing like saying that everything is self and non-self at once. That's a universalizing statement, and the quote from the Sutra is basically saying there are no universalizing statements. Also, you say that practice helps you understand this identity of self and non-self. I don't think that's true in my case -- and fine, maybe I haven't practiced enough. But before I had a steady practice I was very enthusiastic about this philosophically, and I thought I got it, intellectually, at least. From sitting, well, it feels more like "self" and "non-self" are just words, and their identity or not is a non-issue. All there is is the moment of sitting, or walking my dog, or whatever -- the sound of the refrigerator cutting off then restarting, my aching knee, whatever. What does some metaphysical notion of self or non-self have to do with that? It's too capacious, too general to say anything about this moment or this place. It's just words.
I dunno... I feel like it does say what Ziporyn says it says. But maybe that's because I've read more of the book than just the two and a half pages I read aloud on the video. Maybe more context is required? But, when you come right down to it, it really IS all just words. THAT'S the bottom line. I feel like a lot of what Dogen is trying to say when he gets really convoluted and starts (for example) taking a sentence apart and rearranging the words in different orders is "It's all just words." Words are always just words. They can never be any more than that. Some of them act as useful pointers and some don't. And they're never universal. That is to say, one set of words might be a very good pointer for 88 out of 100 people, but for the other 12 out of 100 those words don't work at all. Which doesn't negate the value of those words entirely. But it also means that when one of those 12 people says, "Those words are totally meaningless" they are correct.
I recommend taking a look at Carl Bielefeldt’s book: “Dogen's Manuals of Zen Meditation” It makes a number of interesting points about a practical approach and why it was downplayed. Here’s the key quote from Dogen’s Tenpuku version of the Fukan zazen gi: (c. 1233): “Whenever a thought occurs, be aware of it; as soon as you are aware of it, it will vanish. If you remain for a long period forgetful of objects, you will naturally become unified. This is the essential art of zazen. Zazen is the is the dharma gate of great ease and joy.” This approach eventually led me to experience no-thought. You should read enough about Zen to appreciate the significance of that state. Otherwise, it will just seem strange.
Thx a lot for this video! Btw nice piece of music! What you are talking about reminds me of something I found in the book "Nonduality" by Loy. There he presents the thesis that negating Self or Non-Self leads necessarily to the other since both are interconnected. If we look at it historically we have a move from Self to Non-Self and then back. It is still puzzling for me but as you said, I think through practice this kind of paradox becomes lively emptiness. The problem with all polarities arise from too much thinking about them. Bye bye.
It's simple. Its zero dimensional. It's the same self as in a dream. I don't think any understandings or concepts are worth anything except virtue/conscience and the danger of sensual intents/attachments. And that Samatha meditation is all you need until body+mind consciousness shut down. Then, you must probe to proceed further.
Is this idea kinda similar to when Shunryu Suzuki says in Zen Mind Beginners Mind "form is form, and emptiness is emptiness"? [just as much as form is emptiness].
I think this follows apophatic logic. That is, embodident of God through negation. So you must see the lack of self in all phenomena, and what's left is the Self.
What about doing the practice without studying the teachings? I sit every day but don't read any Dogen stuff. Am I going to go crazy or become a cult leader?
Have you seen why freedom from self is essential? I mean do you have an idea why we let go of discriminating thoughts? If not, why and what are we practising?
@@macdougdoug I can't speak for others. I don't know why I'm practicing TBH. I feel like it's a need. Have tried different types of meditation and thought why not just sit and do nothing instead of all the trying to do this and that they normally advertise (try to count to ten, try to visualise a blue light, try to focus on the air going in and out of the nose, try to focus on the vastness of the universe and so on). Upon inventing shikantaza I then discovered it's called Zazen and this Brad fellow makes it sound like a good idea without really telling me what to do. But I can't work out if it matters or not that I read Dogen.
Oh yeah, 'Triad' 😂 That song always felt pretentious to me. I like 'Happy Guy' by Devo. Similar theme, better lyrics. 🖤 Jefferson Airplane covered Triad, and it sounds a little better when Grace Slick sings it.
Emptiness is only empty of inherent existence. It does not say that there is no self, only no inherently existing self. That somehow does not seem contradictory, even on an intellectual level.
Hm... Not really. You don't quite understand. Let me illustrate with an example. The sound of one hand clapping doesn't say there isn't a sound, but no sound inherent of itself. Understand the soundless sound and you will understand.
Katagiri’s (2011) “Each Moment Is the Universe” provides a paired description of self & no-self (existing in the phenomenal world & existing in the formless realm of timelessness). In his description we shift from moment-to-moment between the two.
The subtitle of the book is: “Zen and the Way of Being Time” and it is Katagiri’s interpretation of Dogen’s Uji (Being-Time). Thus, we have (1) no-self, (2) self, and (3) the alternating combination of the two. This is the Threefold Truth of Tiantai: (1) All phenomena are empty. (2) Phenomena exist in a provisional manner. And (3) the middle truth: phenomena are both empty of existence & exist provisionally.
But Katagiri actually explains how the combination takes place (in time & space)!
This is always the case. But it isn’t always explicitly stated. So, when Dogen starts pointing out (spouting off about) all the implications of this, in a chapter focusing on another topic, it adds complexity on top of subtlety. Someone could write a book (trying) to explain why Dogen’s writings are so hard to follow. (Probably better to just try & explain his writings directly, as Brad does so well.)
I love that book! Each Moment is the Universe is one of my favorites!
I ran across the teaching about “milk” when I decided to sit down and actually READ an old sutra-which turned out to be the Nirvana Sutra, where Buddha talks about himself as an eternally existing, omnipresent force for the redemption of the whole cosmos and the True Self of all beings. It kind of blew my mind-especially because it was the pandemic and I had jacked up my sitting to a whole hour every day. The parable about “milk” has really stuck with me.
I think the word you were searching for instead of "diversion" was "digression." Thanks much for the reading/description regarding self/no-self and permanence/impermanence. This may sound weird, but it was a big relief.
Yeah! Digression! Thank you!
my Theravada teacher has had some deep experiences and now he still teaches no self but he’ll also say things like “no self but the All”
Awesome acoustic song, great video - complimentary to a great podcast! This all just makes sense to me, honestly. A thing cannot exist without its opposite! And I agree - on a purely intellectual level, Zen and Buddhism overall are daunting; practice is direct experience that makes it intuitively “true”.
Too many diminished chords. I found it unpleasant. Diminished chords without a resolution to a minor or major leaves me wanting.
@ Life is a diminished chord. Love it anyway.
Murphy`s Law: "Nothing is always, and everything depends!"
Thank you, Brad. I'd been slightly worried about the distinction between nondual Self and Budshist no-aelf, abd this makes it clear I shouldn't worry about it.
My experience of Buddhism is about holding two contradictory truths at once. Both are true in a way that can't be said or written, and only Epworth through zazen. I consider myself a part of the universe in the shape of a nihilist. I come from everything, I am nothing, and to both I will return.
Nisargadatta Maharaj says a quote very similar to this.
study yourself, let go of yourself, realize you are/have been/will be all other selves (and everything else)... I still think Dogen says it best.
Saved this one. I've bumped into this throughout my illustrious career of loving the sutras, the koans, the poetry, the point, Dogen immensely...
One gets a sense of making leaps and bounds in just sitting, like a smidgen, when one takes note of its rapture, but, when one does not, it is like bounty of no bounty. And Yet, I've had to wrangle myself into a practice of Zazen once more. Seeking a Sangha this time ❤️🌎🙏🏻🧘♂️
There is the permanent process of the arising and falling away of self - the point is that we need not be dependant on suffering/self.
This is a bit confusing, Brad, because that quote from the Nirvana Sutra doesn't say at all what Ziporyn claims it says. To occasionally refer to self as part of upaya, skillful means, is nothing like saying that everything is self and non-self at once. That's a universalizing statement, and the quote from the Sutra is basically saying there are no universalizing statements.
Also, you say that practice helps you understand this identity of self and non-self. I don't think that's true in my case -- and fine, maybe I haven't practiced enough. But before I had a steady practice I was very enthusiastic about this philosophically, and I thought I got it, intellectually, at least. From sitting, well, it feels more like "self" and "non-self" are just words, and their identity or not is a non-issue. All there is is the moment of sitting, or walking my dog, or whatever -- the sound of the refrigerator cutting off then restarting, my aching knee, whatever. What does some metaphysical notion of self or non-self have to do with that? It's too capacious, too general to say anything about this moment or this place. It's just words.
I dunno... I feel like it does say what Ziporyn says it says. But maybe that's because I've read more of the book than just the two and a half pages I read aloud on the video. Maybe more context is required?
But, when you come right down to it, it really IS all just words. THAT'S the bottom line. I feel like a lot of what Dogen is trying to say when he gets really convoluted and starts (for example) taking a sentence apart and rearranging the words in different orders is "It's all just words." Words are always just words. They can never be any more than that. Some of them act as useful pointers and some don't. And they're never universal. That is to say, one set of words might be a very good pointer for 88 out of 100 people, but for the other 12 out of 100 those words don't work at all. Which doesn't negate the value of those words entirely. But it also means that when one of those 12 people says, "Those words are totally meaningless" they are correct.
I recommend taking a look at Carl Bielefeldt’s book: “Dogen's Manuals of Zen Meditation” It makes a number of interesting points about a practical approach and why it was downplayed.
Here’s the key quote from Dogen’s Tenpuku version of the Fukan zazen gi: (c. 1233):
“Whenever a thought occurs, be aware of it;
as soon as you are aware of it, it will vanish.
If you remain for a long period forgetful of objects,
you will naturally become unified.
This is the essential art of zazen.
Zazen is the is the dharma gate of great ease and joy.”
This approach eventually led me to experience no-thought. You should read enough about Zen to appreciate the significance of that state. Otherwise, it will just seem strange.
Thx a lot for this video! Btw nice piece of music! What you are talking about reminds me of something I found in the book "Nonduality" by Loy. There he presents the thesis that negating Self or Non-Self leads necessarily to the other since both are interconnected. If we look at it historically we have a move from Self to Non-Self and then back. It is still puzzling for me but as you said, I think through practice this kind of paradox becomes lively emptiness. The problem with all polarities arise from too much thinking about them. Bye bye.
thats true: zazen brings deep understanding of all that..
you look cool in that sweater !
Thank you Brad.👍👏🙏
Listening to Huang Po read by that Australian Buddhist nun (can’t remember her name) with the wonderful voice.
Seemed a lot like Advaita Vedanta.
It's simple. Its zero dimensional.
It's the same self as in a dream.
I don't think any understandings or concepts are worth anything except virtue/conscience and the danger of sensual intents/attachments. And that Samatha meditation is all you need until body+mind consciousness shut down. Then, you must probe to proceed further.
I knew tgat was a planet of the apes shirt! I like the new ones too but nothing compares to the originals
nice T shirt
please link to your podcast for Komyo
Ziggy is so enlithened , he does not cuestion anything .......
Is this idea kinda similar to when Shunryu Suzuki says in Zen Mind Beginners Mind "form is form, and emptiness is emptiness"? [just as much as form is emptiness].
The middle way
The skillful view om the self according to buddha seems to be just as confising so... Yeah probably the toughest cookie of them all in buddhism
I think this follows apophatic logic. That is, embodident of God through negation. So you must see the lack of self in all phenomena, and what's left is the Self.
Cool channel. I’ve been finding my way back to Dharmic philosophy after a long hiatus.
As an aside, how familiar are you with Carl Jung’s work?
What about doing the practice without studying the teachings? I sit every day but don't read any Dogen stuff. Am I going to go crazy or become a cult leader?
Have you seen why freedom from self is essential? I mean do you have an idea why we let go of discriminating thoughts? If not, why and what are we practising?
@@macdougdoug I can't speak for others. I don't know why I'm practicing TBH. I feel like it's a need. Have tried different types of meditation and thought why not just sit and do nothing instead of all the trying to do this and that they normally advertise (try to count to ten, try to visualise a blue light, try to focus on the air going in and out of the nose, try to focus on the vastness of the universe and so on). Upon inventing shikantaza I then discovered it's called Zazen and this Brad fellow makes it sound like a good idea without really telling me what to do. But I can't work out if it matters or not that I read Dogen.
@@madameblatvatsky "The way of the masters was to find their own way."
@@hoogreg ooh. Isn't that also the way of the maniac? 🤪
Personally, I found the meditation really kicked in when I started learning about Buddhism and philosophy in general.
Does Ziggy have Buddha Nature? 😜
Moo!
Oh yeah, 'Triad' 😂 That song always felt pretentious to me. I like 'Happy Guy' by Devo. Similar theme, better lyrics. 🖤 Jefferson Airplane covered Triad, and it sounds a little better when Grace Slick sings it.
Wow! I don't get it! :)
On a sidenote, maybe?