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Can Zen Survive America?
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- Опубликовано: 15 мар 2023
- Tricycle article: tricycle.org/m...
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Brad, The author of the article, Helen Tworkov, Founding Editor of Tricycle, is not wrong. She points out some of the hypocrisies that have come to Zen as it has been transplanted to the US. While living in Japan in the 90's, I saw many particularly Japanese examples of this problem. From my United States-conditioned mind the largest was the inheritance of Zen temples from father to son. Along with this was the perception that these priests considered the temple as simply the family business. It took several months to find any priest who taught Zazen. Several were Glad to have me visit their temple and even sit there, but they didn't do Zazen themselves. One priest explained the building which used to be his grandfather's Zendo was used as storage for his brother's antique furniture business.
The author seems to miss the larger context of Zen in its homeland. I believe I remember you quoting Nishijima Roshi saying the Soto Shu was a "guild of funeral directors". The same issues the author laments are a part of every branch of the American Christian landscape. The lessening of ethics to the status of an unwelcome visitor has grown during my life. I see little difference in the attitudes behavior of some professionally religious East or West.
Cheers!
Outstanding comment!
I actually greatly appreciate videos like this where you "think out loud" while discussing a topic. A "solution" isn't always necessary and it's always interesting to hear your perspective.
Everyone knows it takes exactly 17,341 days to get supreme executive enlightenment
But...if you come to my seminar, you can get it in just 17 days. 😂
@@photomukund that is an extra 99$ one time only non refundable
As a Private at Fort Benning in the 80's a drill sergeant stood over me as I painted bricks and he shouted: "The chain of command goes from God to ME to YOU and to the BRICK! YOU are NOT in charge of YOU! I am in charge of YOU!! You are ONLY in charge of the BRICK!"
For a split second I became a brick, and for the last 30+ years I have had to remind myself every morning, that I have autonomy, that I can move and I can make choices.
I was at Fort Benning 1978... airborne!
@@Meoooweww 85' drive on!!
I am currently living at a Zen center. I find that there are centers that seem to put people's feelings and emotions first; with the actual purpose of Buddhist practice not appearing to be held up as the point of the community. A kind of "before we get to practice, let's make sure everyone is feeling ok." kind of thing. And then the centers that focus on training are often seen, in today's political climate and by these "emotions first" centers, are seen as too masculine or insensitive. That to say, "we are here to practice first, not to make sure everyone is feeling valued and supported and listened to and etc" is misunderstood as "we will not support you and we don't care about your emotions." That to realize that it is not about my reactions and opinions about things... to say that's what practice entails... then practice ITSELF is seen as toxic and degenerative. I happen to be practicing at a temple like this right now. This is a massive point of resistance for many people who come here, often including myself! I still take people's shitty moods personally, and feel stupid when I get shut down for something, and hate it when people hide behind the "don't take things personally" wall. In fact, we just has someone leave because of this. I think today with many people practicing many different kinds of no-dual practice, it's astounding how much people have a basic misunderstanding about what practice is, what Zen is about. The main problem is that there no real lucid consensus about the intellectual theory to begin with. So people go on practicing their idea of it, and that often means trying to control or find an emotional state; even people in these seemingly "masculine" centers do this. It's a totally common and pervasive misunderstanding in practice. So it's important to remember what Zen is all about in theory before we step inside the doors, and there can be easy consensus about this, that it's not about what you THINK it is. Remember? Then it's about putting it into practice so we can actually see this for ourselves, and remembering what its about when things get emotional or even desperate. Yes we should be supported, yes we should speak up if there is abuse or even neglect or unfairness, yes we should feel comfortable to a definite degree within a center, but let's not forget the reason we're practicing... is that we are getting in our own way with our own idea of how things should be and misrepresenting reality with thought and emotions. Remember?? This is often exactly what is making us suffer and what is getting in the way of the Way. Getting slogged down in assigning a gender or emotional state to practice is just another layer, and it might be, no doubt for many people, the most crucial layer to see through right now.
Zen Monk Stan ''Butan'' White of Hokoji Zendo in New Mexico told me that: "Even in a monastery there is an urge to be the one who cleans the master's bowl."
So i'm just an average Joe - 9 to 5 office job - house in the burbs - 5 adult kids - 2 grandkids- and i've been half-assedly doing this zazen thing on and off over the decades- just this year i've become more committed to the practice - don't have a zafu - don't have a buddha statue or incense burner- i sit behind a big chair in the living room next to the TV for 10 mins a day (3-4 days) per week - will i get "enlightened" ? - probably not - but it feels good to have a practice- feels good to be connected to something
this is the way lol. when i feel like it i do it otherwise its forced and is just not cool
This is a dilemma that I’m constantly pondering on… I sit zazen alone. I study Dōgen alone. I’ve had “the experience”. Sangha is the third jewel, yet I’ve never even met another Buddhist 🤷♂️
Most inspiring, insightful, experienced and knowledgeable American Soto Zen practitioner I came across in the 90s was someone who used to be a first a Member of a Yahoo Group and later on his Admin. His name was Bill Smart. He was not a Zen Teacher. Yet, he was best American Teacher I’ve ever met.
Thank you, Brad. I really appreciate your videos and books. They're helpful and clarifying!
Although this is far from the purity that was and is claimed about zazen and its relationship with enlightenment, I think the more traditional approach, that to provide community, ceremonies for various occasions, family or community would allow people to aggregate around the teachings, eventually implement them more or less in their life, and then, there would be a residual amount that would EVENTUALLY get interested in enlightenement, and get to do exactly what it takes.
Maybe the biggest obstacle is that "die-hard" approach sends away the largest number and makes it more difficult for the very few truly interested to find a favourable context.
Didn't Dogen say that zazen itself is an expression of enlightenment and that any striving is falling into dualism?
Buddhism was founded as dualism...where enlightenment is an expression of zazen.
I was under the impression that this is exactly the type of thing that Zen has always said; every time you have an intellectual model, a set of ideas that you think are important, dissect them and dissolve them is part of the practice. I don't understand the big deal. The question is "Can America Survive Zen?"
In short: Brad will not have an ice cream with us. 😢
Puppies & ice cream sounds like Ray Davies. Fantastic.
At our center, we offer so many traditions now that it’s like a cafeteria of varying Buddhist-derived dishes - like Tibetan, Insight, Soto Zen, etc.: We’ve got it all! Most of the time it leads to tradition/experience shopping.
Best video, yet! I think Alan Watts was very clever to present himself as an 'entertainer' which avoided quite a lot of the usual accusations about unethical behavior in 'gurus'. Having been an actual Church of England priest, I would guess he knew too well the eagerness with which Western audiences search for flaws in any 'spiritual' teacher. I don't think being a 'troubled soul' precludes Enlightenment experiences, which are more common than we think and sometimes spontaneous. These days, they end up classified as NDEs, 'spiritual emergencies', etc. with no real clue as to what is really happening. I don't even know if it's possible to replicate Eastern religious practices with an audience that grew up in church or synagogue, steeped in guilt and 'original sin'. There is a great need for teachers to actually speak about Enlightenment experiences from their own lives, and teachers who share our culture.
Watts was also not a practitioner!
Great topic … and I agree with you about the ethics and enlightenment connection (non-duality). Dosho Port essentially evolved into a Sanbo adherent, mixing Soto and Rinzai, and they have a “formula” for enlightenment (which turned me off a lot once discovered), so the numbers don’t surprise me. I think there are at least 2 scandals related to him as well … not that anyone is perfect. Lastly, I find that some centers just aren’t geared toward sincere, deep practice, which is why I’d want to go …. but “getting butts in seats” is a reality.
I think I like the slow version a little better. Can’t go wrong either way though.
As for whether or not Zen can survive America, I think you made some profound points in your video “ Woke Compassion vs Real Compassion,” which really speaks to this issue. Americans seem to suffer from that Burger King mentality, “I want it my way,” and put more effort into changing any practice to suit their needs and keep them in their comfort zones.
I recently looked up religion demographics in America, and Buddhism is about 1% of the population. I seriously doubt Zen will ever become a major religion in America, but it has made its mark and has a presence in all major cities and is available in rural areas if in nothing else than in books. And now, with the advent of online Zen due to the pandemic, even someone in a small town in the Midwest or South can participate in a virtual sangha if they want to. I see no reason to believe that Zen will disappear. And who knows, maybe it will get to even .5% of the population. I'm fine with that and see no reason why this should be a discouragement to anyone generally interested in this practice. And yes there have been scandals in Zen, but it was wholly unrealistic to think that there would never be any. That's not condoning the bad behavior, but just being realistic about the human condition.
even if it went to .00001%, I would still be doing zazen.
The ‘thing’ that bothers me, especially in the Soto Zen community is that so few teachers are even willing to discuss the topic of approaching enlightenment. It makes me wonder if they’ve even had a significant experience along those lines. There is even the belief that if anyone says that they are enlightened, by definition, they cannot be enlightened.
I’d really like to see a lot more people talking openly (e.g., as Brad has) so that the community can compare notes and actually learn what works well & what doesn’t. The lineage approach is only as strong as its weakest link, while the openly reported empirical approach (i.e., scientific method) has a better track record.
"The ‘thing’ that bothers me, especially in the Soto Zen community is that so few teachers are even willing to discuss the topic of approaching enlightenment."
Imagine if they did approach the subject...what would happen?
They would lose most of their patrons and wouldn't be able to pay the heating bill. Its a business.
@@Teller3448 Yes, but why? I suspect that when most westerners approach Buddhist meditation, there is an underlying ‘desire’ to have experiences that at least give them a taste of enlightenment (as Brad said about himself).
So, is the problem:
(1) When the practitioners find out how demanding the practice is?
-Of course, that begs the question of what method is adopted and what experiences will ‘satisfy’ them enough to keep going. If you say the practice is simply Zazen, I can show you at least 5 or 6 significantly different descriptions of how to practice zazen. What exactly do you mean by letting the thoughts come & go? How exactly do you pay attention to the body sitting. How relaxed or concentrated are you mentally & physically? How frequently should you readjust your posture? How do you deal with ambient sounds?
(2) The instructor hasn’t had the critical experiences.
(3) The instructor has had the experiences, but doesn’t know how to convey ‘way’.
(4) The instructor doesn’t know how to ‘motivate’ students to keep practicing without crippling them with ‘desires’ & ‘expectations’. -Dogen’s solution was to tell the beginners that they were having the full samadhi experience from the start, whether or not they ‘realized’ it. (I figure that you can’t blame him for trying that approach, while wondering how many beginners had a clue of what he meant by it.)
(5) Is it possible for westerners to be either turned off by, or indifferent to, talk about enlightenment? -Because they don’t really believe in it, think it strange, or unapproachable, or simply don’t understand what it’s all about?
@@JimTempleman "Is it possible for westerners to be either turned off by, or indifferent to, talk about enlightenment? -Because they don’t really believe in it, think it strange, or unapproachable, or simply don’t understand what it’s all about?"
Buddhism means enlightenment-ism. If I have no aspiration for enlightenment I am compelled to stay away from all temples and disciplines. Its entirely valid for people to expect experience which gives them a taste of enlightenment...but they are not being taught HOW.
The worst thing an aspirate can do is follow modern teachers instead of the classic texts of ancient times.
Take the middle way, attachment to goals like enlightenment is too left, attachment to ethics, money raising, community and shangha is too right.
In one sense, I don't think Buddhism in general can survive America to be honest. It saddens me to say this, but it's clear that the vast majority of Americans are not practicing according to tradition, and really have no interest in doing so. Although I think at the same time that's always been the case in all cultures, that most people are NOT actually practicing seriously and honestly, and that's across the globe. I think anyone who is practicing seriously and diligently will always be in the minority, no matter the country/culture. But anyways yeah I don't think Zen or any form of Buddhism in its traditional sense will survive in America, and that's kind of sad...I'd be happy to be proven wrong here btw!
Brad, your paraphrase from Dosho Port was a little off. Here is his quote, but even this is out of context:
“Generally speaking, it’s going to take many Zen students at least 100 days of sesshin for a first kensho and then another 400 or so (a low estimate for the “best horses”) to really integrating that awakening. This assumes weekly sanzen/dokusan with a clear-eyed teacher. There are other ways of doing intensive practice, of course, and sesshin days are just one convenient indicator.”
But you are correct, it takes a commitment to practice, regardless.
Weirdest thing just happened. So I’m listening to this on my way to the thrift store, the last thing you mention is the book by Helen Tworkov just before exiting my truck. I walk into the store straight to the book section and the first thing I see sitting there is Zen in America by Helen Tworkov. Coincidence, divine intervention or aliens??
What is astounding about what Brad has quoted is that its the same rant we heard from Master Hakuin in the 1700s. Buddhism is always going through waves of de-generation and renewal. What side will you be on???
I always thought a pie fight would be a great way to raise money for a Zen center. The center would sell pies to the participants.
A waste of pies surely?
Brad,
I think most Americans do not know what Zen Buddhism is except in a very vague popular notion. I agree with the author , the average American is not seeking enlightenment. There is no saving America through Zen, and the idea is ludicrous.
I don't think it's anything to take lightly at all. There are no guarantees, but if you really understand the true meaning of critical Suttas, you have a good chance. But nobody understands the serious nature of what the Buddha demanded from his monks. They think they can just live however they want, and maybe things happen, or maybe not. But that is guaranteed 100% failure. If you want results, you must be prepared to sacrifice your life for them. Else, you're just wasting time. Knowing the deathless, of course, can only be known via death. A total disconnect from mind+body+meditation space+world+universe+spacetime.
It's in the eyes of the dog, the immediacy of his wag and woof. There it is
My formula for enlightenment necessitates only 72 hours of semi continuous earnestness, doubt, and zazen. Coupled with at least a correctish understanding of self & suffering. And lets say a reason to love, or a sense of responsibility. (or maybe its innocence and fearlessness, I can't decide which ingredients taste best)
Beautiful
"Dogen spoke of dropping off body and mind...but thats all he said about it."
Yes thats the original principle. Even the founder of Buddhism spoke of himself as a lotus emerging spotless from the mud...its the same dualistic principle as dropping off body and mind. The unconditioned 'emerging from' or 'dropping off' the conditioned.
"Just like a red, blue, or white lotus-born in the water, grown in the water, rising up above the water-stands unsmeared by the water, in the same way I-born in the world, grown in the world, having overcome the world-live unsmeared by the world. Remember me, brahman, as 'awakened.'"
The Mahayana schools however go further by saying body and mind (the mud) are only modifications of the absolute. This is how they became non-dualistic.
What a surprise lay people have lay aspirations
Temples should close their gates for lay people and only give sermons
Imo Zen will survive in spite of American lays
suffering and the end of suffering? No! Bake sale!
bake sales are the path to the end of suffering. 1 cupcake sold = 1 less day in samsara.
Looking for enlightenment is like traveling from one location to other location with no other thing in the mind that reaching to destination. But if the same journey were by body and mind dwelling in the present moment. Moment after moment then the journey would be a lot of more interesting. After all, Where is enlightenment?. What is it?. Is it a location in the mind or is it a state of mind or is it a bulb that switches on or what?.
Who’s doesn’t love a good ice cream social? 🍦
This motivates me to do zazen
And I. Will nowhere in the
Crime doesn't pay
Even though
Had to make a non-risk
Movie The Rock
How to be absolutely more and one
Brad. How I saw this movie was they were having they. 666 times ofc if you don't follow me
Television
Hi. Slow when going into a ...check it. Hostage situation where
not unless people do deep retreat...
No.
I came to Meditation/Buddhism because I was interested in awakening, too. But over the last 10 years I came to understand that even awakening itself is horse-shit. What are you going to do with your "awakening experience" from 5 years ago? Are you going to print a shirt that says "Awakened 2018"? It's just non-sense. I understand why you're not supposed to speak about it because it's completely worthless. The only thing that matters is: "What does your practice look like right here, right now?". If you want experiences, take drugs. It's much quicker and more predictable. To walk the Zen way for awakening is a huge waste of time. Maybe it'll come, maybe not. Maybe you'll be able to handle your emotions better, maybe not. Practicing Zen thoroughly means to leave the game fully for once. It's about NOT collecting any more points, nothing to gain, nothing to lose. We are not the center of the world. The world is the center of us. Zen is to get-out-there. So I'm gonna go. Bye.
Asking, “What are you going to do with your awakening experience?”, is like asking, “What are you going to do with your sight now that you’ve opened your eyes?” You don’t “do” anything with it. Wakefulness is now your default state. It infuses your everyday behaviour, so that you no longer blunder about, blindly following the whims of the ego and suffering the consequences. If you continue to suffer as a result of self-serving behaviour then you were never fully awake.
@@sea_squirt I don’t agree but I like your comparison. Yet sight itself makes as much sense as awakening. None. Because sight needs an object that appears in sight, for it to even work. It needs light, your eyes and your brain to decode the light. So what is awakening without putting it to practice. That’s what I mean. The experience itself is completely worthless. One does not even need an so called awakening experience to become Buddha. To become Buddha means to manifest the cosmos here and now. Not 5 years ago.
You’re talking about awakening as if it was something hanging in the spiritual shelves, waiting for you to pick it up. If there was awakening, it has to be now. As a consequence the experience itself makes no sense because every experience dies in every moment. Buddhist teaching of non-substantiality tells you exactly that. Outside of this very moment nothing exists. It is all dependent arising.
Now I would say, suffering or not, you’re not fully awakened. No one is. Because awakening does not exists. Where would it do so? And yet Buddha is always now. All these words don’t matter. You, me, anyone thinking about it doesn’t matter. As long as there is awakening vs non-awakening, suffering vs. contentment, you vs myself, this vs that, there’s no awakening. I’m neither a master, nor am I „awakened“ in any sense. The best advice I ever got was: „Stop it!“. Stop looking for awakening. While you’re looking for awakening, your friends and family grow old, some will die, some will get born. Muho once said: „Duality is the place to find emptiness.“. That’s it. Here and now.
@@BenjaminSinanovic Thank you for your considered reply. I wrote my original comment because I was struck by your phrase, “awakening itself is horse-shit”. If we accept the idea of “events” occurring in “time”, then it is possible to identify a moment when someone has become awakened in the sense that they now know something that they did not know previously. For example, they might now realise that they are not an isolated individual when they formerly thought that they were. So there came a point in time when they thought of themselves as part of a greater whole. That realisation might have occurred suddenly or it might have crept up gradually.
On the other hand, if we don’t accept the idea of events occurring in time, then we are forced to discard all time-related talk as “horse-shit”, but it makes normal communication difficult. If we additionally discard the concept of individual objects as being real, then horses and their shit do not exist either. However, none of this needs to present us with any difficulty. For the purposes of everyday speech we can continue to treat time and space and horses and shit as convenient fictions, but armed with the knowledge of their insubstantiality, we don’t need to suffer from being overly attached to them.
The title question should be reversed.
To each the spirit of their own age. I see it as an evolutionary process. Probably not completely straightforward either since each civilization is limited by what it's previously achieved. Up until now anyway yay for the internet bye bye borders. So for me enlightenment is a cool word. But when they make a formula for it it works against the purpose as you pointed out with the 100 weeks to 300weeks analogy. Each will reach it when they are ready. I will say one thing I won't start a center i wont write a book. I do this to ensure nothing of me is left behind but memories. A religion arises when an individual is deified or a philosophy is deified. I want to avoid that obstacle. The best way to do that is to be as scientific as possible in my approach. Since the spirit of science is the quest for knowledge it has as a key distinct unique and important feature the requirement that we test what we know to validate its content. Usually when a practice becomes a religion the rigor of the practice is diminished i.e. no more testing or innovating. This is because the belief becomes more important then the practice itself or when the practice becomes more important then the effects of the practice. The "goal" and I mean this loosely is for people to thrive in life. But people cannot easily fit into one box. So each requires a different approach. There are many facets to the jewel of enlightenment but some people upon hearing the word will assume something else. I.e. enlightened beings can levitate, or read minds, or calm a tiger down with a smile. And some won't make that assumption. In one instance I have to shoot enlightenment down. In the other i can describe some of its facets and trust that the individual will be paying attention to what I said and didn't say. Ethics is descriptive. Virtue is an act. Like meditation is a practice but reincarnation is a belief. Hm... meditation is the pillar of a mountain but nirvana may cause nightmares in the light of day. This to me implies that the act is of benefit but the assumption of an explanation could be detrimental. For some meaning in life is required this is like an explanation. For some the act is the reason for the seasons. To say I see the rise and fall of beliefs as but the passing of the four seasons is to state that the explanation changes over time but the practice itself does not. Of course the practice itself is only required because we have an advanced brain since animals do not need to meditate to be enlightened. They spontaneously arise and pass by default. Only we need to return to that primordial source because how we develop as human beings ends up taking us out of that state by way of an internal narrative. Otherwise subliminal processing is all that life requires. Just ask the dog. Or remember that young kid that didn't have a real world to worry about. Who kinda just went about the day without a care in the world. It might not have been present at all points during childhood but it was more dominant during that time and thus children have an easier time slipping into non dual awareness and then being brought back out when they need to learn something. Slowly overtime the child's internal narrative begins to diminish the primordial source and by the late teenage years the connection to the source is critically severed... for most. That's when the so called "daily grind" first becomes a burden that then requires a justification in the mind of the one lost. If I said the meaning of life is to die it changes nothing about life but the perspective. If I say the meaning of life is to love and be loved in return it changes nothing about life but the perspective. So the meaning matters little in my book. The perspective matters. Lol in my book meaning is extra. And I'm fond of occams razor. For me though what matters is curiosity an answer closes doors but a question gives rise to curiosity. So go look for it. Just don't expect to find it and learn from what you do. But that's just me. For other people other things are best. Since each is unique. Some things may be universal but not all things. And some things are to be avoided like the kind of zeal that forces a person to harm another or themselves over a perspective. Not everyone will avoid that but natural selection works in mysterious ways and as far as I can tell historically speaking that trend is slow but positive. So will this survive will that survive. Hm... not sure. But as long as we learn to coexist and to be of benefit to ourselves and each other as well as other sentient life forms, looking at you a.i., I think we will be just fine. Also the bridge let's horses cross and donkeys cross.
ruclips.net/video/whnGgq4O3jM/видео.html
So because I am host to all things I see all things as teacher. The flower the rock the person. I do not place authority on one above the other. Each is true but one is not truer then another. So I arrived at this position as I approached the position impartial. When I was able to drop my reverence for things like family country love I was able to open myself to the reality of family country love. Opening myself to the reality of family country love allowed me to be impartial and this allowed me to see why people took things out of context. So for me both to be impartial but also to ensure that people continue to question and grow and test it is important that the people are reminded. Otherwise it just arises spontaneously. Do you see now?
ruclips.net/video/QiKFM3MT5Tg/видео.html
First one realizes the price of impartiality. Then one realizes it's gift.
ruclips.net/video/8P_4DcNMKZ8/видео.html
Horrible ad
not unless people do deep retreat...