Seeing the players name at very beginning was a nice touch, but then names were gone, and you only referred to them by name from then on, so it was difficult for me to keep track of which guy you were referring to. Leave the names visible, and as long as there are no duplicate names, it would work.
I'm recovering from rotator cuff surgery and can't play pickleball for at least another 5 months. So happy I found this site - love watching with all the commentary.
I'm glad you found my channel. I just recently had minor surgery. I played yesterday for the first time in a month. I'm glad to be back on the court. I know rotator cuff surgery takes a little longer to recover from. Best of luck.
Thanks for the advice. Now that I am 61, I am a 4.0 tennis player (down from 4.5). I moved into a retirement community that appears to have a strong group of pickleball players. Though I have never played pickleball, I am looking forward to picking it up and video's like this help educate me on what I need to do to play at the level I think I should be capable of doing.
Awesome. Just a couple of notes. You cannot win from the service line. Make your way to the kitchen line. Reduce the length of your swing. A pickleball swing is much more compact than a tennis swing. Those are a couple of mistakes I see tennis players make that are new to pickleball.
I really liked this analysis. Brutal but true analysis. It looks like the level I am at right now. I play a lot of bangers who have tennis backgrounds. So watching weaknesses from above like this is really good time spent. I like to play strategy and percentages at my level of play and opponents. This video analysis is what I need to be watching more of for the time being. Thanks very much.
Guy in yellow while serving from add court slides his left foot back before contact and it goes outside the sideline extension while maintaining contact with the ground. If it was lifted off the ground it might be ok but it is an illegal serve as is.
I agree that his serve is illegal. If lifted off the ground, that foot can be anywhere and not affect the legality of the serve. I don't stand still and serve. I stand back then advance toward the baseline before ball contact. A player recently said my serve was illegal because when I first started motion toward the baseline to serve, one foot was touching outside the extended centerline. If I haven't made contact with the ball, my foot can be anywhere, including touching the ground outside the extended centerline.
While appreciate your videos and viewpoint, I think you get to caught up in how pickleball was in the past and not how the game has changed. In the past there was pretty much only the third shot drop but recently the third shot drive is now the standard and now we have the fifth shot drop or even the seventh shot drop. The two players in the near court played more modern day pickleball and won while the other team played more old school and lost. The paddles are getting faster and some players are banging harder, so now it's becoming harder and harder to defend against these drives making them the new standard. I see you as old school which I respect but the gear is changing, the players are changing and the game is changing. It's like the spread in football! Peace!
Thanks for pointing that out. It is changing. However, my experience is, when I play bangers, they are used to playing against bangers. So, if I play a soft game where I do hit third shot drops, they freak out, because they are expecting me to hit a third shot drive that they can just be waiting for and bang back. How I play all depends on how my opponents are playing. I try to attack their weaknesses. Probably, more than half the players I play against cannot hit a third shot drop. At least I have the option of choosing between a third shot drive and a third shot drop.
@@pickleballpick-apart9787 FWIW, the USAPA definition for 4.0 addresses this twice. On third shots: "Selectively mixing up soft shots with power shots to create an advantage with inconsistent results." Inconsistent results are OK, but these guys *weren't even trying*. Even more telling, on strategy: "Beginning to identify opponents weaknesses and attempts to formulate game plan to attack weaknesses" Again, not even trying. Third shot drop might not be the shot to end all shots here, but it clearly could have been a more effective part of the mix ... but that opportunity was foregone, by both sides. There was no variation of play as existing strategies *clearly failed to work*. I don't have to be as good as these guys - and I freely admit I probably am not - to see that there were more opportunities available than were taken.
this is how tennis players who converted to playing pickleball play. Looking at their mechanics, they are most likely tennis players. They might be a 4.0 where they live. I mean I can tell you, not many 3.5s would be able to properly return those 3rd shot drives at all or without popping it up. 3.75 seems pretty ok. They're probably more advanced than most people, and will only continue to get better because they have fundamentals from tennis. They will improve drastically once they learn the small nuances of pickleball. When you critiqued the wrist lag forehand at @16:35 , as you mentioned, it is a core tennis fundamental that unlocks a lot of power. You don't see many pickleball players do it because not many of them have tennis backgrounds and did not learn swing mechanics like a tennis player. Many people try generate top spin and power by locking up and using their entire arm (similar to ping pong). Neither is wrong, but using wrist lag correctly (like a whip) creates a lot of power.
Thanks for watching and thanks for pointing that out. The wrist lag does not work for me. I just cannot hit the ball consistently doing that. Because a pickleball court is much smaller than a tennis court, there's not much room for error. My goal is to keep the ball in the court and I'm better at it without breaking my wrist as much as that player does.
@@pickleballpick-apart9787simply because your not a tennis player. Tennis players will revolutionize the game, the game as you know it will be gone before long
Absolutely, 100%. The last thing these early adopters should want is for this game to get popular enough to invite trained athletes to the party. It's already starting to happen. Then they'll start complaining about the game speeding up too much, getting too fast. They'll want to try to slow down the paddles, but everything they try to do will put them at a further disadvantage.
Around 3.5. At 16:35 where you said player's wrist is unlocked, this is indeed a tennis technique, and it DOES give added power. Good if you can do it, but not recommended for non tennis players. At 18:05 where you mentioned he didn't need to punch the volley, you're right. But I don't see that as his mistake. I think his mistake is having an open paddle face, where he's almost punch slicing the ball. Punching would've been fine if he closed the paddle face and hit it down at opponent's feet. These guys have solid athleticism and a lot of potential, but are too inconsistent to be at 4.0 level, IMO. So I would say somewhere in the 3.5+ range, but not quite 4.0. The guy in black, whom you pointed out lifted his foot, seemed to actually have the most touch on his drop shots. And at least he was trying them with greater regularity.
Those are some very valid points. I really do appreciate you watching and taking the time to comment. I think the opinion of the broken wrist is up for debate.
@@pickleballpick-apart9787 hey Rory, Take a look at Chris Olson’s channel. He’s the guy who does a lot of paddle reviews. Watch as he learns how to hit his backhand. His teacher (a pro player) also encourages him to “whip” the ball by unlocking the wrist. Also, there are several short form videos that talk about this. I agree that keeping wrist mostly locked is better for consistency. But once people get better and need to add more to their game, it makes sense to experiment with this stuff.
It’s funny, I just watched a video where the guy said people should 3rd shot drive more and 5th shot drop if they want to go to the 5.0 level. Guess it depends on the quality of both types of shots.
@@Goofymonkey11 if you have really impressive power, you can survive off of 3rd shot drive and 5th shot drop. But most people don’t. I think most people should hit a 3rd shot drop maybe 75% of the time, and mix it up with a drive 25% of the time. And the 5th should never be a drive, if they survive the third, always drop the 5th and get to the kitchen.
Thought you did a great job grading. One of the first things I look for in a 4.0 player is a fro and back hand roll shot at the net. only saw one. I watched 40 players today on 10 courts to see patterns. mostly 3.0- 3.5. everyone returns the ball to high over the net. I myself have struggled with soft hands and have changed paddles over it, we will see, also watching people, we all need to reset the ball more often. once you get to 4.0 and above players, you are really not going to hit it past them very often. Doubles seem to be won or lost at the net. At 71, very few play singles.
@pickleballpick-apart9787 I have had an Engage mx 6.0 elongated, really poppy. have a Selkirk Halo Max. I just got it today. I have not hit it yet. At 71, I am not playing pro's or need a pro paddle. Heard some good things about it. we will see?? I am more of a fenes player, not a banger, building an all-around game.
I feel I can play at 4.0 to 4.5 level well when I'm playing with those players, but if I'm in with 3.5, it makes me look like I'm only 3.5. Wonder if others feel the same,,I'm like face it, if you're partner pops them high alot, there's not alot you can do but look bad yourself. I've noticed that this is not mentioned alot when it comes to ratings. There was times I've played against some on opposite side that at times looked like 3.0.,,but them having the right partner was a totally different game,,it was like WOW man! Didn't play like that last game, now you're playing 4.5 level.
It does. It boosts confidence. Makes you get out of your head when you're having fun. I piss most pickleballers off. I'm here to have fun and I talk. Everyone else seems old and stuffy at 30 years plus....... 😂😂😂
Honestly about 3.5, could be a little more or less. My reasoning is that every 4.0+ DUPR that i have played with or against handles drives easily and can just block the ball back. That being said, typically players want to get to the kitchen with the fifth shot if they are the serving team. Third shot should get you halfway, and fifth shot gets you all the way. A third shot drive coming at you typically is hard to push all the way to the baseline, and a drop gives the serving team some time to move in. I have played tournaments both 3.5 and 4.0+. Every 3.5 tournament I have played I have placed in, and the teams that place don't hit drives all the time. They switch between drive and drop. The 4.0+ tournaments (4.0-5.0) drives are usually part of a set strategy, with partners communicating that they will drive. They usually set up a shake n bake with drives. Also, drives should typically be hit at the player moving in on the returning team, since they aren't in as threatening of a position to keep the serving team back. In this video, most drives were hit at the player already at the NVZ. I honestly think that they are probably under 3.5, just based on the decision making. They can handle 3.5 for sure, just based on athleticism. But if they were to play tournaments, an experienced 3.5 and any 4.0+ would adapt very quickly to the constant drives
Excellent, excellent points. Thanks for taking the time to write. I have been working on the shake and bake. It is one of my favorite plays, (when it works. LOL!)
What's with all the backhand slice drives? All these high 3rd shot drives and poor blocks make these 3.5s where I live. And Victor frequently standing outside the boundary when he serves, an no one calling it, tells me they aren't that well acquainted with the finer points of the rules.
@@pickleballpick-apart9787 no way these guys are 4.0 in my areas...my partner(s) are 3.2-3.5 and we would beat these guys regularly. Their footwork and shot selection do not indicate 4.0. I would be licking my chops to play these guys ina tournament.
I noticed right away, and Rory you usually pick that up, I’m surprised you missed it. You did catch the other guy from another video tossing up the ball in his drip serve. Keep up the good work though… like to watch all your vids
I totally agree with your post game analysis of these players . If your game plan is to bang ( drive ) the ball most every time , then you'll never reach 4.0 , much less advance upward from 4.0 . These guys are playing tennis , not PICKLE-BALL . The shame of it is , is that as soon as they decide to slow the game down , they'll become 4.0 five minutes later . They have the talent to do so , but don't seem to be interested . Hopefully , someday , they'll get it .
Hopefully. However, it seems pickleball is evolving. As more players get into it and don't take the time to understand the game, all they want to do is hit the ball as hard as they can and get the point over as quickly as possible. Thanks for watching.
To all the 4.0 pickleballers that want to bash tennis players please reply to me and we can set up a match. We each put up $10k best 3 of 5 games. I’ve been playing PB since April.
I agree with the folks saying that these guys are most likely tennis players because I am a long time tennis player and when I first started pickleball I hit like them. I was a total banger and while i could over power a lot of players I would get beat by guys who had a good reset and dink game. I have since added other dimensions to my game and now play at the advanced level regularly. I do believe having the swing mechanics from tennis helps a lot.
I agree. However, players who come from tennis start out with a backswing that is just way too long. Once they shorten it, they get really good, really quick. Thanks for watching.
@@pickleballpick-apart9787 If you enter 4.0 tournaments and win matches, without checking all the criteria boxes for being 4.0, you're a 4.0. What matters is win percentage at each level.
You knock the third shot lob, but its a valid play. Even in the play you questioned it, it got the player to the kitchen by drawing the opponent off the NVZ line. At 4.5 and below levels its not a bad option, unless youre against teams with tremendous overheads.
Tennis players need the "break wrist" or lag, combined with the hip turn for spin and power. The wrist has to be loose to whip the forehand. This is what generates power and spin. A tight wrist may produce the same, but it relies on shoulder strength which will eventually reduce your longevity in the sport.
Great video! However, an immediate observation is the audio has a weird "quality" about it. Like an echo along with some distortion. Hopefully that's fixed by the next video I watch!
I noticed that too. I like your analysis. The animation you have where you sit is somewhat wierd. I was tripping out on your hands for a while until you got into the pickleball :)
Watch a slow-motion video of Anna Leigh Waters forehand - she often lays her wrist back like Brendan in the video and she doesn't have a tennis background. I love the whip and top spin that provides on forehand drives! :)
Completely disagree with you on “breaking your wrist” comment. Laying your wrist back is what every top player does in pretty much every racquet sport including pickleball. It actually increases accuracy and power. Slapping at the ball is a different story
Thanks for your opinion. I prefer not to break my wrist as much as he was doing it. I get more power by not doing it. I'm going to do some more research and take a closer look at top pros. Thanks for watching and taking the time to respond.
@@pickleballpick-apart9787it is true that a lot of top pros whip through the ball with a broken wrist. But you’re right that at the 3.5 level it’s probably better to swing through cleanly. I think you earn the right to break your wrist when you get confident hitting the roll. Both the forehand and backhand roll require breaking your wrist, and once you master it in that context, that’s when you bring it over to your drive.
@@douglasmurdoch7247 it’s not “breaking your wrist” it’s laying your wrist back. Do you have a one handed back hand? I’m betting you’re laying ur wrist back naturally
@@douglasmurdoch7247 the net roll is completely different then the drive and serves. On serves and drives you make contact with the ball with your wrist laid back. If you swing with light grip and no tension the paddle should lag a bit and that’s why it might look like a whip.
I def was a banger, but have been drilling getting to kitchen after 3rd shot, to put away. Well placed drives though seem to still win games. Although risky. I started month ago, have no idea what I am. After watching this, I know for a fact I can return way better and drive better. My footwork also. I was decent at tennis but better at ping pong. So I have the wrist habit. And the flick back hand, from ping pong. Ive been adapting it all. A quick back wrist flick at the kitchen works well for me while keeping my motion small. The WHIP method for me only works if I am LOOSE. I grab my paddle at the end with my pinky hanging alittle. Half grip I relax and then hold the paddle up and let gravity let it fall and whip around. If I also add leg and hip with forward motion. Effortless fast serves. I saw a video where a pro does that. If power is not added usually because person is not loose enough. And interfere with the fluid whip motion. It def takes some practice. And also for me I get a nice top spin back hand with the whip. Well I wasnt sure what I was but I have my first match 2.5-2.9 rating. After this I feel confident.
I'm sure you'll do well at that level. Ping pong players convert well to pickleball. That backhand flick you're talking about is not an easy shot. But ex ping pong players usually do it well. Best of luck on your pickleball journey.
at 14:05, justin should be hitting it to the guy closer on the left right? its a killer set up so he won't get a better ball than that to try a put away and its worth going for it seems because of how small of a reaction time the player on the left would have being that close.
Good solid 3.8 players. They lack several shots in their ability; and, they make weak shot selection throughout the game. They have great movement, but their ready positions are lacking. Most points are being earned with unforced errors. 4.0 + players make more points by waiting for higher percentage opportunities to hit winners. there is no "patience" in this game, with all players accelerating and taking risks far too early in the point. They are not setting up their partners for easier kill shots. Pickleball is a game setup by finesse, position, and team work. Tennis is set up with power, and players need to learn the soft game to advance into the 4.0+ level.
at the club i belong to, they do 4.0 testing based on competition. put you in a group of 8 (4 testers, 4 helpers that are 4.0 rated) and play for a few hours. if you get 50 points (out of 6 games to 12) you get your 4.0. So...if you're a GOOD banger, you could get ur 4 rating (depends on how good the other team is at handling the bangs). is this the best way to test for 4.0?
That's interesting. Never heard of doing that. Generally, if you play and tournaments starting out at the 3.0 level and you win a few tournaments, you move up to 3.5. Win at 3.5, then you move up to 4.0. That's if you were a registered dupr player and the tournament reports the games. Thanks for watching.
One thing I'm not hearing anyone discuss is the partner you play with. It's hard for me to know if I'm close to 4.0 because so far I've mainly played with 3.0/ 3.5 players (at best). I just played in my first tournaments (mixed and mens senior) and in all my 6 matches played, my opponents hit almost exclusively to my partners leaving me feeling helpless to do anything. And we got beat a lot because of that. I thought I was holding my own but I was cut out of the game to a large extent, being the better player on my team. I'm wanting to just play with some 4.0 players cause I think I could fit into (grow into) that from what I'm seeing so far.@@pickleballpick-apart9787
@@CurtisSimpsoncorrect if you and you’re partner are not evenly matched on skill then targeting the weakest player becomes a goal (for sure the case in tournaments!). If you want to play “enjoyable” pickleball competitively find players that are the same skill level
Rory, just curious what is your Level of play? Have you play in any tournaments that you can Pick Apart? I'm sure your opponents don't know or care you're Picking them Apart on RUclips like all the other Pick Apart videos. I see lots of Pro Level Serving short and Returning short in MLP and Tuesday Night Pickleball at the Orchard recently. I say about 30% to 40% of the time. What do you think about that? Keep up the good work. We enjoy your videos.
Thanks for watching. I saw a video in which someone broke down 500 serves by professional players. If an imaginary line is drawn between the nvz line and the baseline, what percentage of serves do you think pros get over that line? The answer...60%. You probably thought it was more. It's not and there are two reasons why. First, they know they are not going to serve an ace like players can in tennis. Secondly, they don't want to risk hitting the ball out of the court and giving up their serve. If they do not have ball in hand, they cannot score points.
I do play in the tournaments occasionally. The next tournament I'm playing in will be at the 4.0 level. I normally don't record tournaments. I plan to get to some recreational matches soon. I just need to find players who don't mind being on youtube. LOL.
Your mentality that “all serves should be in” is outdated in today’s pickleball game. Serves are an offensive tool and if you’re getting it in every time you’re leaving value on the table (poker analogy). The best current advice is to serve so that 90% are in. That’s still a high percentage but will give you some balls returned in below average locations. Just because serves are rarely aces doesn’t mean that strong serves with risk are unwise.
I understand wanting to hit a serve to get your opponent off balance. I try not to serve the same serve twice in a row. I have six different serves that I have incorporated into my game. That way my opponent never knows what is coming. I do not however, try to hit the baseline when serving. I do my best to make sure it lands in the court. Thanks for watching and thanks for commenting.
Agree. I think it's ok to miss one or maybe two a game to 11, but those other serves that do go in better be a problem for the other team. I can usually score 1-3 points a game just based off of my aggressive serve.
Interesting pick apart here! At the 3:00 mark you say a 3rd shot drop is coming, but isn't that actually a 5th shot drop? I thought the shots are counted on both sides, right? So the receiver immediately receives and hits the 2nd shot.
A 3.5 should be able to win a 3.5 tournament at their age level. None of these players would win a 3.5 tournament. A 4.0 player is comfortable making one of several shots to the right spot on the court. (i.e. stop feeding Brendan forehands!) An unforced error such as hitting a serve out-of-bounds is a 3.0 mistake, not even a 3.5 mistake. All of these players are closer to a 3.0 than a 3.5 from a tournament-proof DUPR rating. Brendan has a winning shot drive that he can execute successfully and consistently against 3.0 players, so he is at times a 3.5, but only if he is hitting at a 3.0 player.
Watch the Pro tournaments now with the top players playing. Most pro players now mostly do a 3rd shot drive then a 5th shot drop. Anna Leigh Waters actually recommends a 3rd shot drive over a 3rd shot drop.
Anna Leigh Waters recommends it because she said its an easier shot. She said also that when herself and her mother started playing they used to drive a lot and hit hard. A lot of people would call them bangers. Anyway they were told this isn’t how pickleball is played. They ignored that advice and then in about a year won a major tournament. You can watch her on utube and you will see what I mean. Ex tennis players are now entering the sport and changing the game. More power and speeding it up.
Hi Rory, thanks for the videos. Something just crossed my mind. Have you ever recorded one of your games and done a "pick apart? Would be kind of fun to see. Thanks again
Thanks for asking and thanks for watching. Yes, I'm going to get to it. One issue I have is most of the players I play with don't want to be on youtube. LOL! A new private pickleball club is opening where I live. Once it opens I plan to do a bunch of videos from there.
@pickleballpick-apart9787 excuses, excuses Rory. You can't find 3 folks to agree? I'll play...so you now only need two more to agree. Just admit it, the internet is harsh, you don't want to be picked apart.
@@Vanessa-pe2xs even if Rory himself isn't at a high level, it's fair to say that he can probably identify the mistakes that a lot of these players are making. It's like an NBA coach. He doesn't need to be as good as the players he's coaching, but he can identify the mistakes.
@CareyFan The people have been begging for months, for footage of Rory at play. He always says he "no", he can't, because his buddies don't want to be on tape. To appease the people, I have volunteered to face the internet meanies and play with/or against Rory. I agree to games being recorded/posted. We just need 2 others, and the world can get their wish; to finally see Rory play!
Close. The team with the guy in the light green shirt needs better positioning. Note how at 14:54 he stuck his paddle into the middle (and his butt out) to take away the forehand from his partner. I think 4.5 players would be more knowledgeable about positioning. Just my opinion.
4.0 talent with 3.5 skills and 3.0 strategy. 3.5 should be better than average. Every person that thinks of themselves as athletic think they are automatically near 4.0 right off the bat. These guys are athletic but not exceptionally athletic as far as I can see. They are probably better than average because of it but not as good as they could or probably will be. I am guessing that if they work at it and try to get better in a year or probably two they could destroy the players they are today.
@@Vanessa-pe2xs and @929mmr, same here! As a 60-year old not-too-athletic female, I know the strategy much better than I can execute it. I guess that's what makes the game so addicting, I want to hit that NEXT shot the way I visualize it, so I keep coming back. Because sometimes....sometimes....it works and it's a magnificent feeling!!! Pickle on!
When playing against true bangers (generally tennis players who haven't learned to play pickleball) I return the ball to their feet, favoring their non-dominant side (there you go Mr. Banger, bang that) or I loosen my grip, allowing the paddle to dissipate the ball's pace and just drop it over the net. If you return the ball short, as in mid-court, they will advance forward and bang it again, this time from a much shorter distance. making it a lot harder to defend. In this video, many of the hard-hit drives are right to their opponent, standing at the NVZ. Is it Christmas? On a 3rd shot drive, target the advancing player. If you want to target a weaker player at the NVZ, aim for his non-dominant side and chicken-wing him or aim between your opponents (the middle is the answer to the riddle) and if the non-dominant side is open, down the line works too. My point is, stop making their return easy and hitting the drive right to them.
I disagree that the one leg hop during the drives is a bad habit or form. Baseball pitchers transfer weight from back to forth most dramatically by starting the pitch on one leg and following through to the other. Similar mechanics ar okay in pickleball. I believe Tyson McMuffin does this on his serve.
You're welcome. My go-to guy for paddle advice is Chris Olson with the youtube channel, Pickleball Studio. In his latest ranking of the best paddles, he has the Six Zero Double Black Diamond, The Vatic Pro Prism and the Ronbus R1 Pulsar as the top three. I play with the Six Zero DBD. Here's the link to his video. ruclips.net/video/tfdQ-J97U38/видео.htmlsi=uwjnwWKbGUDZzYfN
Garret hit a cut on every back hand volley. He drops the tip of his paddle after contact. I think you called it a chicken wing. What ever. He’s missing opportunities to put power on it or roll volley.
There’s something extremely obvious that you’re missing…the reason these guys are having problems with the serve is cause they’re standing on the baseline instead of moving back and giving themselves some room to react…that’s why he lifts his leg is to try and lean back to give himself some room and that’s why they’re giving away free points on missed returns into the net
At min 6:10, when the guy in the yellow hits the back hand he keeps his paddle away from his body and he gets "boddy-bagged". A 4.0 player should know, that when at the kitchen line, your ready position should be, paddle up, in front of you, at at 10 'oclock for most situations. He could have blocked this shot if done what I just mentioned.
@@pickleballpick-apart9787 ok, yes paddle. (I am mostly a tennis player...) what do you think about the serves though...? Seems lots of people are violating the stated rules. They are "right on the edge" of legality, in an attempt to gain advantage.. Doesn't seem fair to those following them.
That was a 3.5 or lower game IMHO. No rallies, sustained play at the net, or strategy other than to drive the ball through or past your opponent. Did they even have a rally that exceeded 6 shots? Not to mention a lot of bad mechanics, footwork, and playing out of position. It appeared nobody was trying to play with any control or move players around. He mentioned one player's good defensive play from deep in no-man's land. Unfortunately, he just returned a serve. Why was he in no-man's land and not at the net? Or, maybe I have an inflated idea of what level of play 4.0 is.
I stopped the video as you were about to state your ratings, Rory. Brenden 3.5 Victor 3.25 Garrett 3.25 Justin 3.0 These guys have athletic ability but lack pickleball skills. They need lessons. Returning serve, footwork, positioning, resets (A VERY important skill from 3.5, up!) how to set up your partner, shot selection. They lacked all of these.
Honestly don't agree with the lifting of the left foot assessment. I mean, yes, it does take away power, but clearly this is the goal with this player and an established mechanic. I've used this mechanic on windy days outside to help being returns in and for 3rd shot drops. Becoming a good PB player is as much, or maybe even more, about mechanic consistency than most other things. Yes, some mechanics should be avoided because they can cause issues with follow-up movement or on court positioning, but this is not one of them. Edit: now that I've heard the assessments, I honestly don't think this mechanic is enough to rate someone a 3.5 vs 4.0. This player is a 3.5 because of an inconsistent backhand, shallow returns, and less than ideal positioning.
And you have an old school way of playing and thinking…hitting deep heavy top spin serves and returns isn’t about getting aces or winning the point on that shot it’s setting up the next shot and the next shot if needed to win the point…you contradict yourself by saying he’s hitting serves too short but chastising them when they hit it too deep
Being a banger at the 4.0 level isn't going to be very effective. Their soft games tells me that they aren't at the 4.0 level. They need to play smarter. Their size and athleticism can only compensate for so much. I came from a tennis background and once I figured out that the soft game is the key!
If players are not able to return your's , or anyone else's serves , then they are not 4.5 or 5.0 players . But if they are , then you ought to turn pro .
There is an illegal serve at 7:10. He is standing outside the extension of the sideline. Not even a close call. You called it a nice serve, but the rally actually should have been awarded to the receiving team.
The serve at 2:56 is illegal. The commentator didn't even notice that! Sheesh!!!!!!!! And another at 7:04!!!!! You cannot be past the sideline people!!!!! And more! WOW!
I would have to say these gentlemen would not get far in a 4.0 tournament. I see 3.5 players. No resets, no rolls, poor blocking on the bangers no soft attacks on offense. None of them can keep their opponents with rolls making them stage and take the 5,7 shots soft.
You don't have to pause the play on every comment you need to make. Guy misses a serve, comment "Can't miss the serve" and the the video play. Too many stops in the video one a clear startment is all that is needed and let the video continue to play.
Instead of trying to remember names you could have called them by their shirt colors. Red, Yellow, Green & Black
I do that most of the time. Maybe it's better so viewers know who I'm talking about. Thanks for your suggestion.
and for that deficiency Rory, you are only a 3.5 announcer...😂
Seeing the players name at very beginning was a nice touch, but then names were gone, and you only referred to them by name from then on, so it was difficult for me to keep track of which guy you were referring to. Leave the names visible, and as long as there are no duplicate names, it would work.
I'm recovering from rotator cuff surgery and can't play pickleball for at least another 5 months. So happy I found this site - love watching with all the commentary.
I'm glad you found my channel. I just recently had minor surgery. I played yesterday for the first time in a month. I'm glad to be back on the court. I know rotator cuff surgery takes a little longer to recover from. Best of luck.
Just play it with your other hand, shouldn't make too much of a difference.
Be careful. I see old people getting serious injuries constantly.
Thanks for the advice. Now that I am 61, I am a 4.0 tennis player (down from 4.5). I moved into a retirement community that appears to have a strong group of pickleball players. Though I have never played pickleball, I am looking forward to picking it up and video's like this help educate me on what I need to do to play at the level I think I should be capable of doing.
Awesome. Just a couple of notes. You cannot win from the service line. Make your way to the kitchen line. Reduce the length of your swing. A pickleball swing is much more compact than a tennis swing. Those are a couple of mistakes I see tennis players make that are new to pickleball.
I really liked this analysis. Brutal but true analysis. It looks like the level I am at right now. I play a lot of bangers who have tennis backgrounds. So watching weaknesses from above like this is really good time spent. I like to play strategy and percentages at my level of play and opponents. This video analysis is what I need to be watching more of for the time being. Thanks very much.
You're more than welcome. I really appreciate you watching.
Guy in yellow while serving from add court slides his left foot back before contact and it goes outside the sideline extension while maintaining contact with the ground. If it was lifted off the ground it might be ok but it is an illegal serve as is.
Thanks for watching and commenting. It is illegal. I didn't catch it. Some viewers have pointed it out. Thanks.
I noticed that too.
I agree that his serve is illegal.
If lifted off the ground, that foot can be anywhere and not affect the legality of the serve.
I don't stand still and serve. I stand back then advance toward the baseline before ball contact. A player recently said my serve was illegal because when I first started motion toward the baseline to serve, one foot was touching outside the extended centerline.
If I haven't made contact with the ball, my foot can be anywhere, including touching the ground outside the extended centerline.
While appreciate your videos and viewpoint, I think you get to caught up in how pickleball was in the past and not how the game has changed. In the past there was pretty much only the third shot drop but recently the third shot drive is now the standard and now we have the fifth shot drop or even the seventh shot drop. The two players in the near court played more modern day pickleball and won while the other team played more old school and lost. The paddles are getting faster and some players are banging harder, so now it's becoming harder and harder to defend against these drives making them the new standard. I see you as old school which I respect but the gear is changing, the players are changing and the game is changing. It's like the spread in football! Peace!
Thanks for pointing that out. It is changing. However, my experience is, when I play bangers, they are used to playing against bangers. So, if I play a soft game where I do hit third shot drops, they freak out, because they are expecting me to hit a third shot drive that they can just be waiting for and bang back. How I play all depends on how my opponents are playing. I try to attack their weaknesses. Probably, more than half the players I play against cannot hit a third shot drop. At least I have the option of choosing between a third shot drive and a third shot drop.
@@pickleballpick-apart9787 FWIW, the USAPA definition for 4.0 addresses this twice. On third shots:
"Selectively mixing up soft shots with power shots to create an advantage with inconsistent results."
Inconsistent results are OK, but these guys *weren't even trying*. Even more telling, on strategy:
"Beginning to identify opponents weaknesses and attempts to formulate game plan to attack weaknesses"
Again, not even trying. Third shot drop might not be the shot to end all shots here, but it clearly could have been a more effective part of the mix ... but that opportunity was foregone, by both sides. There was no variation of play as existing strategies *clearly failed to work*. I don't have to be as good as these guys - and I freely admit I probably am not - to see that there were more opportunities available than were taken.
Tell us you think that you’re better than you are without telling us that you think you’re better than you are 😉🤪
Wow bro. The production value of your videos are way better now. I just randomly found this video. What a difference in 4 months. Great job
Thanks. That's very nice of you to say. I hope you keep watching.
this is how tennis players who converted to playing pickleball play. Looking at their mechanics, they are most likely tennis players. They might be a 4.0 where they live. I mean I can tell you, not many 3.5s would be able to properly return those 3rd shot drives at all or without popping it up. 3.75 seems pretty ok. They're probably more advanced than most people, and will only continue to get better because they have fundamentals from tennis. They will improve drastically once they learn the small nuances of pickleball. When you critiqued the wrist lag forehand at @16:35 , as you mentioned, it is a core tennis fundamental that unlocks a lot of power. You don't see many pickleball players do it because not many of them have tennis backgrounds and did not learn swing mechanics like a tennis player. Many people try generate top spin and power by locking up and using their entire arm (similar to ping pong). Neither is wrong, but using wrist lag correctly (like a whip) creates a lot of power.
Thanks for watching and thanks for pointing that out. The wrist lag does not work for me. I just cannot hit the ball consistently doing that. Because a pickleball court is much smaller than a tennis court, there's not much room for error. My goal is to keep the ball in the court and I'm better at it without breaking my wrist as much as that player does.
@@pickleballpick-apart9787simply because your not a tennis player. Tennis players will revolutionize the game, the game as you know it will be gone before long
Absolutely, 100%. The last thing these early adopters should want is for this game to get popular enough to invite trained athletes to the party. It's already starting to happen. Then they'll start complaining about the game speeding up too much, getting too fast. They'll want to try to slow down the paddles, but everything they try to do will put them at a further disadvantage.
@@ThorD4602 they cannot stop the revolution.
@@ThorD4602 Joola Jen 3 paddle banned, it's like you could see in the future.
Around 3.5.
At 16:35 where you said player's wrist is unlocked, this is indeed a tennis technique, and it DOES give added power. Good if you can do it, but not recommended for non tennis players.
At 18:05 where you mentioned he didn't need to punch the volley, you're right. But I don't see that as his mistake. I think his mistake is having an open paddle face, where he's almost punch slicing the ball. Punching would've been fine if he closed the paddle face and hit it down at opponent's feet.
These guys have solid athleticism and a lot of potential, but are too inconsistent to be at 4.0 level, IMO. So I would say somewhere in the 3.5+ range, but not quite 4.0. The guy in black, whom you pointed out lifted his foot, seemed to actually have the most touch on his drop shots. And at least he was trying them with greater regularity.
Those are some very valid points. I really do appreciate you watching and taking the time to comment. I think the opinion of the broken wrist is up for debate.
@@pickleballpick-apart9787 hey Rory,
Take a look at Chris Olson’s channel. He’s the guy who does a lot of paddle reviews. Watch as he learns how to hit his backhand. His teacher (a pro player) also encourages him to “whip” the ball by unlocking the wrist.
Also, there are several short form videos that talk about this.
I agree that keeping wrist mostly locked is better for consistency. But once people get better and need to add more to their game, it makes sense to experiment with this stuff.
Racquetballers do that also.
wrist lags adds power too~
That was not "breaking wrist". That was a lag shot for power in combination with torso and shoulder pivot similar to a golf swing.
To me it looks like 3.5. Mostly because of too many drives where drops should be happening, and resets not quite as prevalent.
I agree! Thanks for watching and commenting.
pickleball, the only sport where dinking makes u “better”
It’s funny, I just watched a video where the guy said people should 3rd shot drive more and 5th shot drop if they want to go to the 5.0 level. Guess it depends on the quality of both types of shots.
3.5
@@Goofymonkey11 if you have really impressive power, you can survive off of 3rd shot drive and 5th shot drop. But most people don’t. I think most people should hit a 3rd shot drop maybe 75% of the time, and mix it up with a drive 25% of the time. And the 5th should never be a drive, if they survive the third, always drop the 5th and get to the kitchen.
Thought you did a great job grading. One of the first things I look for in a 4.0 player is a fro and back hand roll shot at the net. only saw one. I watched 40 players today on 10 courts to see patterns. mostly 3.0- 3.5. everyone returns the ball to high over the net. I myself have struggled with soft hands and have changed paddles over it, we will see, also watching people, we all need to reset the ball more often. once you get to 4.0 and above players, you are really not going to hit it past them very often. Doubles seem to be won or lost at the net. At 71, very few play singles.
Awesome. Thanks for commenting.What paddle did you switch to?
@pickleballpick-apart9787 I have had an Engage mx 6.0 elongated, really poppy. have a Selkirk Halo Max. I just got it today. I have not hit it yet. At 71, I am not playing pro's or need a pro paddle. Heard some good things about it. we will see?? I am more of a fenes player, not a banger, building an all-around game.
Back hand rolls aren't part of the USAPA 4.0 skill definitions though.
@CyberSonic157 you are right. That is just one of my observations .
I feel I can play at 4.0 to 4.5 level well when I'm playing with those players, but if I'm in with 3.5, it makes me look like I'm only 3.5. Wonder if others feel the same,,I'm like face it, if you're partner pops them high alot, there's not alot you can do but look bad yourself. I've noticed that this is not mentioned alot when it comes to ratings. There was times I've played against some on opposite side that at times looked like 3.0.,,but them having the right partner was a totally different game,,it was like WOW man! Didn't play like that last game, now you're playing 4.5 level.
Who you're partner is makes a huge difference. Thanks for watching.
It does. It boosts confidence. Makes you get out of your head when you're having fun. I piss most pickleballers off. I'm here to have fun and I talk. Everyone else seems old and stuffy at 30 years plus....... 😂😂😂
YES if your partner constantly pops balls up in your opponents put away zone all you can think is "can you please stop doing that" 🤣
Try playing pickleball in open play for six hours and having most of your partners popping it up! Lmao. It happens! So frustrating
@@gerardschmenk6264why would u play with them
Honestly about 3.5, could be a little more or less. My reasoning is that every 4.0+ DUPR that i have played with or against handles drives easily and can just block the ball back. That being said, typically players want to get to the kitchen with the fifth shot if they are the serving team. Third shot should get you halfway, and fifth shot gets you all the way. A third shot drive coming at you typically is hard to push all the way to the baseline, and a drop gives the serving team some time to move in. I have played tournaments both 3.5 and 4.0+. Every 3.5 tournament I have played I have placed in, and the teams that place don't hit drives all the time. They switch between drive and drop. The 4.0+ tournaments (4.0-5.0) drives are usually part of a set strategy, with partners communicating that they will drive. They usually set up a shake n bake with drives. Also, drives should typically be hit at the player moving in on the returning team, since they aren't in as threatening of a position to keep the serving team back. In this video, most drives were hit at the player already at the NVZ. I honestly think that they are probably under 3.5, just based on the decision making. They can handle 3.5 for sure, just based on athleticism. But if they were to play tournaments, an experienced 3.5 and any 4.0+ would adapt very quickly to the constant drives
Excellent, excellent points. Thanks for taking the time to write. I have been working on the shake and bake. It is one of my favorite plays, (when it works. LOL!)
Nailed it 👌
In the future please just refer to them as red shirt, white hat, black shorts etc whatever differentiates them. Makes it easier for us watching.
Thanks for watching and thanks for your suggestion.
What's with all the backhand slice drives? All these high 3rd shot drives and poor blocks make these 3.5s where I live. And Victor frequently standing outside the boundary when he serves, an no one calling it, tells me they aren't that well acquainted with the finer points of the rules.
Thanks for watching. You are exactly right. You make some very good points.
@@pickleballpick-apart9787 no way these guys are 4.0 in my areas...my partner(s) are 3.2-3.5 and we would beat these guys regularly. Their footwork and shot selection do not indicate 4.0. I would be licking my chops to play these guys ina tournament.
Guy in the yellow shirt serving from odd side stands outside the invisible court line. Good breakdown of the game.
Thanks for the compliment and thanks for watching. Yes, he is. You aren't the first person to point that out.
I noticed right away, and Rory you usually pick that up, I’m surprised you missed it. You did catch the other guy from another video tossing up the ball in his drip serve.
Keep up the good work though… like to watch all your vids
That is illegal. Gold shirt served from outside the sideline extended.
First thing I noticed….
I totally agree with your post game analysis of these players . If your game plan is to bang ( drive ) the ball most every time , then you'll never reach 4.0 , much less advance upward from 4.0 . These guys are playing tennis , not PICKLE-BALL . The shame of it is , is that as soon as they decide to slow the game down , they'll become 4.0 five minutes later . They have the talent to do so , but don't seem to be interested . Hopefully , someday , they'll get it .
Hopefully. However, it seems pickleball is evolving. As more players get into it and don't take the time to understand the game, all they want to do is hit the ball as hard as they can and get the point over as quickly as possible. Thanks for watching.
Trust me they are not playing tennis no more than putt putt golf is playing golf--Please do not use the word pickleball with tennis ever again
3.5 players need to drill to improve to 4.0. Most don’t seem to execute any resets or 3d shot drops.
@randymarcum6097 I should have said , they " Think " they are playing tennis .
To all the 4.0 pickleballers that want to bash tennis players please reply to me and we can set up a match. We each put up $10k best 3 of 5 games. I’ve been playing PB since April.
I agree with the folks saying that these guys are most likely tennis players because I am a long time tennis player and when I first started pickleball I hit like them. I was a total banger and while i could over power a lot of players I would get beat by guys who had a good reset and dink game. I have since added other dimensions to my game and now play at the advanced level regularly. I do believe having the swing mechanics from tennis helps a lot.
I agree. However, players who come from tennis start out with a backswing that is just way too long. Once they shorten it, they get really good, really quick. Thanks for watching.
What determines your level is how often you win at the level at which you compete. The level criteria are guidelines only.
So, you're only as good as the opponents you are playing against? Thanks for watching.
@@pickleballpick-apart9787 If you enter 4.0 tournaments and win matches, without checking all the criteria boxes for being 4.0, you're a 4.0. What matters is win percentage at each level.
I agree generally, but if you are just looking at 4 guys play, this is a good evaluation. Most people don't play tournaments regularly.
Enjoyed your critique. Good learning experience!
Thanks for watching.
If you want to go frame by frame, instead of pressing space bar super fast, you can just press the "," and "." buttons.
Thanks. I did know that. I'll give it a shot.
You knock the third shot lob, but its a valid play. Even in the play you questioned it, it got the player to the kitchen by drawing the opponent off the NVZ line. At 4.5 and below levels its not a bad option, unless youre against teams with tremendous overheads.
You're right, there is. I just play, most of the time, outdoors. If the wind is a factor, it's difficult to hit an effective lob. Thanks for watching.
I don't usually comment on things like this but boy the audio setup could use some work.. Great video still, AWESOME analysis and tips
Thanks for the heads up. I do have a microphone. I just forgot to plug it into my camera.
@@pickleballpick-apart9787 oh gotcha understandable
Tennis players need the "break wrist" or lag, combined with the hip turn for spin and power. The wrist has to be loose to whip the forehand. This is what generates power and spin. A tight wrist may produce the same, but it relies on shoulder strength which will eventually reduce your longevity in the sport.
Thanks for watching and thanks for your comment.
Victor's serves from the left side are illegal, no? His left foot is outside the court line extended. But I could be mistaken.
They are! I didn't notice. Thanks for watching and pointing that out.
Great video! However, an immediate observation is the audio has a weird "quality" about it. Like an echo along with some distortion. Hopefully that's fixed by the next video I watch!
I think I forgot to plug my microphone into my camera.
I noticed that too. I like your analysis. The animation you have where you sit is somewhat wierd. I was tripping out on your hands for a while until you got into the pickleball :)
😂 totally agree! Reminds me of earlier years! lol @@CurtisSimpson Still the information is solid, even with the technical snafus!
Watch a slow-motion video of Anna Leigh Waters forehand - she often lays her wrist back like Brendan in the video and she doesn't have a tennis background. I love the whip and top spin that provides on forehand drives! :)
I get it. I've been working on a serve and forehand with more whip. I've gotten much better. Thanks for your comment and thanks for watching.
Actually she played soccer and tennis
Love these videos - you are so interesting to watch!
Thanks! Glad you like them.
Great breakdown! How do we submit a video for analysis?
Thanks. If you have a RUclips channel just send me a link to one of your games.
I would rate these guys 3.7. They all have the makings of being 4.0 players with more refinement in their games and better shot selection.
Thanks for watching and thanks for your opinion.
Completely disagree with you on “breaking your wrist” comment. Laying your wrist back is what every top player does in pretty much every racquet sport including pickleball. It actually increases accuracy and power. Slapping at the ball is a different story
Thanks for your opinion. I prefer not to break my wrist as much as he was doing it. I get more power by not doing it. I'm going to do some more research and take a closer look at top pros. Thanks for watching and taking the time to respond.
@@pickleballpick-apart9787it is true that a lot of top pros whip through the ball with a broken wrist. But you’re right that at the 3.5 level it’s probably better to swing through cleanly. I think you earn the right to break your wrist when you get confident hitting the roll. Both the forehand and backhand roll require breaking your wrist, and once you master it in that context, that’s when you bring it over to your drive.
@@douglasmurdoch7247 it’s not “breaking your wrist” it’s laying your wrist back. Do you have a one handed back hand? I’m betting you’re laying ur wrist back naturally
@@pickleballpick-apart9787 it’s like if you’re skipping a rock at a lake, you would generate no power or speed throwing it with a straight wrist
@@douglasmurdoch7247 the net roll is completely different then the drive and serves. On serves and drives you make contact with the ball with your wrist laid back. If you swing with light grip and no tension the paddle should lag a bit and that’s why it might look like a whip.
Victor serve is illegal is outside the boundary line on left hand side
Did not notice that. Thanks for pointing it out and thanks for watching.
I def was a banger, but have been drilling getting to kitchen after 3rd shot, to put away. Well placed drives though seem to still win games. Although risky. I started month ago, have no idea what I am. After watching this, I know for a fact I can return way better and drive better. My footwork also. I was decent at tennis but better at ping pong. So I have the wrist habit. And the flick back hand, from ping pong. Ive been adapting it all. A quick back wrist flick at the kitchen works well for me while keeping my motion small. The WHIP method for me only works if I am LOOSE. I grab my paddle at the end with my pinky hanging alittle. Half grip I relax and then hold the paddle up and let gravity let it fall and whip around. If I also add leg and hip with forward motion. Effortless fast serves. I saw a video where a pro does that. If power is not added usually because person is not loose enough. And interfere with the fluid whip motion. It def takes some practice. And also for me I get a nice top spin back hand with the whip. Well I wasnt sure what I was but I have my first match 2.5-2.9 rating. After this I feel confident.
I'm sure you'll do well at that level. Ping pong players convert well to pickleball. That backhand flick you're talking about is not an easy shot. But ex ping pong players usually do it well. Best of luck on your pickleball journey.
@@pickleballpick-apart9787 thank you, and thank you for taking the time to make the video
at 14:05, justin should be hitting it to the guy closer on the left right? its a killer set up so he won't get a better ball than that to try a put away and its worth going for it seems because of how small of a reaction time the player on the left would have being that close.
Yes, I think you are correct.
Awesome. Great info and tips!
Thanks for the nice compliment.
I completely agree that none of these players are 4.0 based on that game. Too much banging and simply unforced errors as a result.
Thanks for watching and thanks for your comment.
Good solid 3.8 players. They lack several shots in their ability; and, they make weak shot selection throughout the game. They have great movement, but their ready positions are lacking. Most points are being earned with unforced errors. 4.0 + players make more points by waiting for higher percentage opportunities to hit winners.
there is no "patience" in this game, with all players accelerating and taking risks far too early in the point. They are not setting up their partners for easier kill shots. Pickleball is a game setup by finesse, position, and team work. Tennis is set up with power, and players need to learn the soft game to advance into the 4.0+ level.
I totally agree. Thanks for watching.
Bangers for life
Bang away!
at the club i belong to, they do 4.0 testing based on competition. put you in a group of 8 (4 testers, 4 helpers that are 4.0 rated) and play for a few hours. if you get 50 points (out of 6 games to 12) you get your 4.0. So...if you're a GOOD banger, you could get ur 4 rating (depends on how good the other team is at handling the bangs). is this the best way to test for 4.0?
That's interesting. Never heard of doing that. Generally, if you play and tournaments starting out at the 3.0 level and you win a few tournaments, you move up to 3.5. Win at 3.5, then you move up to 4.0. That's if you were a registered dupr player and the tournament reports the games. Thanks for watching.
One thing I'm not hearing anyone discuss is the partner you play with. It's hard for me to know if I'm close to 4.0 because so far I've mainly played with 3.0/ 3.5 players (at best). I just played in my first tournaments (mixed and mens senior) and in all my 6 matches played, my opponents hit almost exclusively to my partners leaving me feeling helpless to do anything. And we got beat a lot because of that. I thought I was holding my own but I was cut out of the game to a large extent, being the better player on my team. I'm wanting to just play with some 4.0 players cause I think I could fit into (grow into) that from what I'm seeing so far.@@pickleballpick-apart9787
@@CurtisSimpsoncorrect if you and you’re partner are not evenly matched on skill then targeting the weakest player becomes a goal (for sure the case in tournaments!). If you want to play “enjoyable” pickleball competitively find players that are the same skill level
Rory, just curious what is your Level of play? Have you play in any tournaments that you can Pick Apart? I'm sure your opponents don't know or care you're Picking them Apart on RUclips like all the other Pick Apart videos. I see lots of Pro Level Serving short and Returning short in MLP and Tuesday Night Pickleball at the Orchard recently. I say about 30% to 40% of the time. What do you think about that? Keep up the good work. We enjoy your videos.
Thanks for watching. I saw a video in which someone broke down 500 serves by professional players. If an imaginary line is drawn between the nvz line and the baseline, what percentage of serves do you think pros get over that line? The answer...60%. You probably thought it was more. It's not and there are two reasons why. First, they know they are not going to serve an ace like players can in tennis. Secondly, they don't want to risk hitting the ball out of the court and giving up their serve. If they do not have ball in hand, they cannot score points.
I do play in the tournaments occasionally. The next tournament I'm playing in will be at the 4.0 level. I normally don't record tournaments. I plan to get to some recreational matches soon. I just need to find players who don't mind being on youtube. LOL.
Your mentality that “all serves should be in” is outdated in today’s pickleball game. Serves are an offensive tool and if you’re getting it in every time you’re leaving value on the table (poker analogy).
The best current advice is to serve so that 90% are in. That’s still a high percentage but will give you some balls returned in below average locations. Just because serves are rarely aces doesn’t mean that strong serves with risk are unwise.
I understand wanting to hit a serve to get your opponent off balance. I try not to serve the same serve twice in a row. I have six different serves that I have incorporated into my game. That way my opponent never knows what is coming. I do not however, try to hit the baseline when serving. I do my best to make sure it lands in the court. Thanks for watching and thanks for commenting.
Agree. I think it's ok to miss one or maybe two a game to 11, but those other serves that do go in better be a problem for the other team. I can usually score 1-3 points a game just based off of my aggressive serve.
Excellent video!
Thank you very much!
I couldn't get to the end, the stopping and starting was driving me crazy!
Sorry about that. I've kind of changed the way I do things since that video.
Watching these guys they seem to be like 3.5 in tennis. M thinking im 5.0 pickleball since im a strong 4.0-4.5 player
Thanks for your comment and thanks for watching.
@12:28 two bounce rule violation? The guy in red shirt hits a high return to the server's partner with automatic reflex hits the ball in the air.
I think someone else pointed that out. I just didn't catch it. Thanks for watching.
Interesting pick apart here! At the 3:00 mark you say a 3rd shot drop is coming, but isn't that actually a 5th shot drop? I thought the shots are counted on both sides, right? So the receiver immediately receives and hits the 2nd shot.
Yes. I think I just messed up. I'm not perfect. Thanks for watching.
@@pickleballpick-apart9787 No perfection this side of heaven! thanx
Servers are faulting by have their feet extended beyond the sideline extended when hitting the ball.
They certainly are. A number of viewers pointed it out. I just missed it. Thanks for watching.
A 3.5 should be able to win a 3.5 tournament at their age level. None of these players would win a 3.5 tournament. A 4.0 player is comfortable making one of several shots to the right spot on the court. (i.e. stop feeding Brendan forehands!) An unforced error such as hitting a serve out-of-bounds is a 3.0 mistake, not even a 3.5 mistake. All of these players are closer to a 3.0 than a 3.5 from a tournament-proof DUPR rating. Brendan has a winning shot drive that he can execute successfully and consistently against 3.0 players, so he is at times a 3.5, but only if he is hitting at a 3.0 player.
Thanks for your observations and comments.
Do our recent 4.0 Joola Gold Medal Match!
Thanks for asking. I'll try to get to it this weekend.
Watch the Pro tournaments now with the top players playing. Most pro players now mostly do a 3rd shot drive then a 5th shot drop.
Anna Leigh Waters actually recommends a 3rd shot drive over a 3rd shot drop.
Those players are a step above everyone else. These players are not professionals. Thanks for your comment and thanks for pointing that out.
Anna Leigh Waters recommends it because she said its an easier shot. She said also that when herself and her mother started playing they used to drive a lot and hit hard. A lot of people would call them bangers. Anyway they were told this isn’t how pickleball is played. They ignored that advice and then in about a year won a major tournament.
You can watch her on utube and you will see what I mean. Ex tennis players are now entering the sport and changing the game. More power and speeding it up.
Are there regional pockets of difference in DUPR ratings? Because the 3.5-4.0 guys I pay with would kill this group.
That's one of the flaws in the ratings system. You're only as good as the players you're playing against. Thanks for watching.
Hi Rory, thanks for the videos. Something just crossed my mind. Have you ever recorded one of your games and done a "pick apart? Would be kind of fun to see. Thanks again
Thanks for asking and thanks for watching. Yes, I'm going to get to it. One issue I have is most of the players I play with don't want to be on youtube. LOL! A new private pickleball club is opening where I live. Once it opens I plan to do a bunch of videos from there.
@pickleballpick-apart9787 excuses, excuses Rory. You can't find 3 folks to agree? I'll play...so you now only need two more to agree. Just admit it, the internet is harsh, you don't want to be picked apart.
@@Vanessa-pe2xs even if Rory himself isn't at a high level, it's fair to say that he can probably identify the mistakes that a lot of these players are making. It's like an NBA coach. He doesn't need to be as good as the players he's coaching, but he can identify the mistakes.
@CareyFan The people have been begging for months, for footage of Rory at play. He always says he "no", he can't, because his buddies don't want to be on tape. To appease the people, I have volunteered to face the internet meanies and play with/or against Rory. I agree to games being recorded/posted. We just need 2 others, and the world can get their wish; to finally see Rory play!
@@Vanessa-pe2xsyou are willing to trqvel to where Rory lives?
Have you heard of drive drop combo?
Absolutely! Drive the third, do a split step in the transition zone. Drop the fifth. I'd have to go back and see if it happened in this game.
The guy in yellow is foot fauting while serving from left side. He routinely is standing outside of sideline
Yes he is. It's been pointed out numerous times to me. Thanks for watching.
Close. The team with the guy in the light green shirt needs better positioning. Note how at 14:54 he stuck his paddle into the middle (and his butt out) to take away the forehand from his partner. I think 4.5 players would be more knowledgeable about positioning. Just my opinion.
Thanks for your opinion and thanks for watching.
4.0 talent with 3.5 skills and 3.0 strategy. 3.5 should be better than average. Every person that thinks of themselves as athletic think they are automatically near 4.0 right off the bat. These guys are athletic but not exceptionally athletic as far as I can see. They are probably better than average because of it but not as good as they could or probably will be. I am guessing that if they work at it and try to get better in a year or probably two they could destroy the players they are today.
Thanks for watching and great analysis. I agree with you. They have the potential to be 4.0, but, are not there yet.
Love your analysis. I have the opposite problem...I think I have 4.0 strategy (in my mind), 3.5 skills and 3.0 athletic ability. Haha
@@Vanessa-pe2xs You and I are in the same boat. Oh to be young again.
@@Vanessa-pe2xs and @929mmr, same here! As a 60-year old not-too-athletic female, I know the strategy much better than I can execute it. I guess that's what makes the game so addicting, I want to hit that NEXT shot the way I visualize it, so I keep coming back. Because sometimes....sometimes....it works and it's a magnificent feeling!!! Pickle on!
Hahaha. I rate myself as a 2.0. People are to full of themselves. Be humble.😊
Short returns are a killer against bangers…
Exactly! Thanks for watching.
When playing against true bangers (generally tennis players who haven't learned to play pickleball) I return the ball to their feet, favoring their non-dominant side (there you go Mr. Banger, bang that) or I loosen my grip, allowing the paddle to dissipate the ball's pace and just drop it over the net.
If you return the ball short, as in mid-court, they will advance forward and bang it again, this time from a much shorter distance. making it a lot harder to defend.
In this video, many of the hard-hit drives are right to their opponent, standing at the NVZ.
Is it Christmas?
On a 3rd shot drive, target the advancing player.
If you want to target a weaker player at the NVZ, aim for his non-dominant side and chicken-wing him or aim between your opponents (the middle is the answer to the riddle) and if the non-dominant side is open, down the line works too.
My point is, stop making their return easy and hitting the drive right to them.
I disagree that the one leg hop during the drives is a bad habit or form. Baseball pitchers transfer weight from back to forth most dramatically by starting the pitch on one leg and following through to the other. Similar mechanics ar okay in pickleball. I believe Tyson McMuffin does this on his serve.
It's okay to disagree. Thanks for watching.
First you said it was his Rt foot, then left ft. I understand one loses time and their balance.
I corrected myself once I realized I made the mistake. It's not a balance issue. It's a habit. Thanks for watching.
From my angle Victor has foot faulted from the odd court serve several times.
He does! A number of viewers pointed that out. Thanks for watching.
Can we see you in action? I would love to cheer you on!
I'll get to it. I just have to find players who actually want to be on RUclips. Thanks for watching.
can i record myself playing and you can pick me apart@@pickleballpick-apart9787 ? I'm learning so much !!
They are all Bangers , and as a result , they are voluntarily often out of position.
I see that happen a lot with bangers. Thanks for watching.
At 2:13, that is an illegal serve. His feet or (foot) is outside the left boundary line. Did the same thing at 15:56 serve.
Yes. It's illegal. Thanks for pointing out. A bunch of viewers mentioned that.
I was just going to say the same thing, but scrolled down to see if any one else commented.
At 8:30, is that a legal serve? It looks like he broke the plane of the sideline, or has that rule changed?
It's a tough call. It may be. As far as I know the rule is not been changed.
Nice job. Thanks for covering for me this morning. What paddle(s) do you like and use? GOD, Guns & Gumbo. RJ
You're welcome. My go-to guy for paddle advice is Chris Olson with the youtube channel, Pickleball Studio. In his latest ranking of the best paddles, he has the Six Zero Double Black Diamond, The Vatic Pro Prism and the Ronbus R1 Pulsar as the top three. I play with the Six Zero DBD. Here's the link to his video.
ruclips.net/video/tfdQ-J97U38/видео.htmlsi=uwjnwWKbGUDZzYfN
It appears Brenden is beyond the sideline on his serve as he contacts the ball on the left side, thus a fault
Yellow shirt (might not be Brenden)
He is. The number of viewers pointed out. I just missed it. Thanks for watching.
Garret hit a cut on every back hand volley. He drops the tip of his paddle after contact. I think you called it a chicken wing. What ever. He’s missing opportunities to put power on it or roll volley.
Thanks for watching and thanks for pointing that out.
The serve by the player in yellow at 1:24 was a fault. He was standing off the court to the side.
Yes! Other viewers pointed that out. Thanks for watching.
There’s something extremely obvious that you’re missing…the reason these guys are having problems with the serve is cause they’re standing on the baseline instead of moving back and giving themselves some room to react…that’s why he lifts his leg is to try and lean back to give himself some room and that’s why they’re giving away free points on missed returns into the net
Kind of similar to cheating in.
it's just poor footwork. No self-respecting tennis player would want to lit a ball like that :)
Can you serve with your feet outside of the sideline?
Thanks for asking. You cannot. I know one of the players does. I just missed it.
At min 6:10, when the guy in the yellow hits the back hand he keeps his paddle away from his body and he gets "boddy-bagged". A 4.0 player should know, that when at the kitchen line, your ready position should be, paddle up, in front of you, at at 10 'oclock for most situations. He could have blocked this shot if done what I just mentioned.
Absolutely! Thanks for pointing that out.
I'm a 5.0 in singles but 3.5 in doubles. Nobody believes me until they see me playing
It's really two different games. Thanks for watching.
Silly me.....I serve with an underhand motion, below my waist, with my wrist above the racket face......
Okay. I've never served with a racket! LOL! I know. You meant to say paddle. Thanks for watching.
@@pickleballpick-apart9787 ok, yes paddle. (I am mostly a tennis player...) what do you think about the serves though...? Seems lots of people are violating the stated rules. They are "right on the edge" of legality, in an attempt to gain advantage.. Doesn't seem fair to those following them.
Yellow shirt guy routinely committed foot faults from the odd side of the court. Both feet outside the sideline when contacting the ball.
Yes. Other viewers made the same observation. I just missed it. Thanks for watching.
Player in yellow consistently serves from out of bounds past the left side line! This should be a foot fault I believe.
It is. A number of viewers have pointed that out. I just missed it. Thanks for watching.
Guy in yellow foot fault on sideline extension during serve on left side.
Oh, yeah! I've been told that about 100 times. I just missed it. Thanks for pointing it out and thanks for watching.
At 18:22 the dude hit three drives and the first two were returned. All three of them would have landed out. You did not comment on that.
Guess I just missed it. Thanks for pointing that out.
Closer to 3.5 in our region of AZ.
Yes, play in Arizona is better than in most re states. Thanks for watching.
And don’t forget about the illegal serve at 7:40 of your video. And many more times serving outside the line.
Yes! A number of viewers have pointed that out. I just missed it.
That was a 3.5 or lower game IMHO. No rallies, sustained play at the net, or strategy other than to drive the ball through or past your opponent. Did they even have a rally that exceeded 6 shots? Not to mention a lot of bad mechanics, footwork, and playing out of position. It appeared nobody was trying to play with any control or move players around. He mentioned one player's good defensive play from deep in no-man's land. Unfortunately, he just returned a serve. Why was he in no-man's land and not at the net? Or, maybe I have an inflated idea of what level of play 4.0 is.
You don't. Most players have an inflated opinion of their play. Thanks for watching.
I stopped the video as you were about to state your ratings, Rory.
Brenden 3.5
Victor 3.25
Garrett 3.25
Justin 3.0
These guys have athletic ability but lack pickleball skills. They need lessons. Returning serve, footwork, positioning, resets (A VERY important skill from 3.5, up!) how to set up your partner, shot selection. They lacked all of these.
Now that I've heard you rate them, Rory, you're being really generous. You are a nicer guy than I.
Well, we're almost on the same page.
Yellow shirt player is in violation during his serve by crossing imaginary sideline extension prior to ball contact
He is. You're not the first viewer to point that out. Thanks.
The rallies seemed ver short for 4.0 level. Very little dinking. Never saw a reset.
I get it. It's 4.0. Some 4.0 pickleball is played this way. 4.5, 5.0. different story. Thanks for watching.
Honestly don't agree with the lifting of the left foot assessment. I mean, yes, it does take away power, but clearly this is the goal with this player and an established mechanic. I've used this mechanic on windy days outside to help being returns in and for 3rd shot drops. Becoming a good PB player is as much, or maybe even more, about mechanic consistency than most other things. Yes, some mechanics should be avoided because they can cause issues with follow-up movement or on court positioning, but this is not one of them.
Edit: now that I've heard the assessments, I honestly don't think this mechanic is enough to rate someone a 3.5 vs 4.0. This player is a 3.5 because of an inconsistent backhand, shallow returns, and less than ideal positioning.
Thanks for your explanation and thanks for watching.
Are these guys all named Victor?
No idea.
Yellow has a tennis backhand.
Sure does. Thanks for watching.
The mustard and ketchup team are super annoying… bangers galore….
Good description! Thanks for watching.
Never mentioned the guy 8n yellow serving illegal. Not even a part of his feet are inside the serve line
Yes. I missed it. A number of viewers pointed that out. Thanks for watching.
And you have an old school way of playing and thinking…hitting deep heavy top spin serves and returns isn’t about getting aces or winning the point on that shot it’s setting up the next shot and the next shot if needed to win the point…you contradict yourself by saying he’s hitting serves too short but chastising them when they hit it too deep
Thanks. Appreciate your comment.
Being a banger at the 4.0 level isn't going to be very effective. Their soft games tells me that they aren't at the 4.0 level. They need to play smarter. Their size and athleticism can only compensate for so much. I came from a tennis background and once I figured out that the soft game is the key!
Thanks for watching. Good to know a former tennis player actually has a soft game.
The guy Victor in the yellow shirt serves with his feet outside the sideline from the left side. Serve is illegal.
It sure is. Nice catch. Thanks for watching.
If players are not able to return your's , or anyone else's serves , then they are not 4.5 or 5.0 players . But if they are , then you ought to turn pro .
Good point.
There is an illegal serve at 7:10. He is standing outside the extension of the sideline. Not even a close call. You called it a nice serve, but the rally actually should have been awarded to the receiving team.
Yes, a number of viewers pointed that out. I just missed it. Thanks for watching.
The serve at 2:56 is illegal. The commentator didn't even notice that! Sheesh!!!!!!!! And another at 7:04!!!!! You cannot be past the sideline people!!!!! And more! WOW!
Yep. I missed it. You weren't the first one to point that out. LOL!
Guy in yellow serves feet out of bounds
He does great. A number of viewers pointed out. I just missed it. Thanks for watching.
He does great. A number of viewers pointed out. I just missed it. Thanks for watching.
I would have to say these gentlemen would not get far in a 4.0 tournament. I see 3.5 players. No resets, no rolls, poor blocking on the bangers no soft attacks on offense. None of them can keep their opponents with rolls making them stage and take the 5,7 shots soft.
Good point. Thanks for responding.
You don't have to pause the play on every comment you need to make. Guy misses a serve, comment "Can't miss the serve" and the the video play. Too many stops in the video one a clear startment is all that is needed and let the video continue to play.
Thanks for the advice and thanks for watching.
nice ！
Thanks!
The guy in yellow, when serving from the left side is out of bounds and the serve is illegal.
You weren't the only one who pointed that out. I just missed it. Thanks.
No, they are not 4.0. Positioning relative to teammate is a problem. Rallies are not long enough to be at 4.0 level.
Thanks for your opinion and thanks for watching.