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Was Jesus Originally A Pagan God? Dr. Timothy Freke
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- Опубликовано: 11 апр 2022
- Timothy Freke has an honors degree in philosophy and is the author of more than twenty books on world spirituality. He lectures and runs experiential seminars throughout the world exploring gnosis. For information, see timothyfreke.com. Peter Gandy has an M.A. in classical civilization and is an internationally respected authority on the ancient Pagan Mysteries and early Christianity. Both Freke and Gandy live in England and are the authors of five previous books, including The Jesus Mysteries and Jesus and the Lost Goddess.
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Read his books years ago and it started me on a journey that is still going. Loved the books.
Wow great guest. Timothy Freke is great!
Love Tim's work....a breath of fresh air
Jacob this is very interesting, I missed this when it originally aired.
Your guest explains the development of Christian Gnosticism as Jewish Paganism that blossomed during the intertestimential period in and around Alexandria,, Egypt - I fing his explanation to be cogent and compelling.
Thanks for doing this Jacob.
This is by far the best guess you've had on in my opinion. I love this guy
Another EXCELLENT episode! Really starting to respect what you do especially after all the unnecessary shakeups at other channels I support. The Jesus Mysteries was the first book which started my journey to seek the truth behind the origins of Christianity. I no longer agree with all of it, but it ignites the imagination still. And there is so much to study on the subject. I can’t believe it’s been 25 years! Great interview and highly relevant…⭐️
Good job on the part of the interviewer, keep Tim talking, let him explain as much as possible! Way to go really! Freke is amazing please read The Hermetica he put together with Peter Gandy
Brilliant. Thank you.
An absolute Truth seeker. Both of these men, but I am so impressed by the knowledge of Timothy Freke. All the hours of research, and having his pal Gandy there to discuss it all with. This is such an interesting subject at this point in time I think everyone is thinking deeply about this stuff. You did great to get this interview, I wish your channel all the success in the world and I will be a subscriber now. Thanks.
Loved the guest
Fantastic and Deeply Awakening Books ❤❤❤
Just listened again! Great interview.
Excellent video. Thanks for sharing.
These guys always miss or are afraid to discuss the main central theme of the Gospels
I would like to know what the main theme is. Thank you
26:18 ... a wonderful question that deserves a book! It is the connection between early Christianity and the Jews and the Egyptians. Remember the Apocryphon of John?
""And the chief archon seduced her [Eve] and he begot in her two sons; the first and the second
are Eloim and Yave. Eloim has a bear-face and Yave has a cat-face. The one is
righteous but the other is unrighteous. (Yave is righteous but Eloim is unrighteous.) Yave
he set over the fire and the wind, and Eloim he set over the water and the earth. And these
he called with the names Cain and Abel with a view to deceive."
With a view to deceive! So what you have is a primitive mythology of the God of the North (associated with Ursa Minor and Betelgeuse) and the God (or Goddess) of the South (associated with Leo and Sirius) ... in a culture who had believed in few principals ... and which the priests were trying to simplify. In the Americas, for example, you end up with the Eagle Priests and the Jaguar Priests ... to worship both of the main gods. (Probably because every 12,800 years they switch control of the Earth's hemispheres between them.) Lion became the Messiah of the North because that's who is about to be in charge again.
4 Ezra 12: [31] "And as for the Lion whom you saw rousing up out of the forest and roaring and speaking to the Eagle and reproving him for his unrighteousness, and as for all his words that you have heard, [32] this is the Messiah whom the Most High has kept until the End of Days, who will arise from the posterity of David, and will come and speak to them; he will denounce them for their ungodliness and for their wickedness, and will cast up before them their contemptuous dealings.
[33] For first he will set them living before his judgment seat, and when he has reproved them, then he will destroy them.
So an easy way to see the situation was that there were two ways to go. Protagonist-Antagonist (Osiris vs Seth or Seth vs Horus or Eagle-Lion) ... or Male-Female hierogamia (Marduk-Sarpanitu or Athena-Poseidon or Yahweh-Asherah or Haia-Anubis). Well, Jeremiah had deep-sixed the Goddess, so Jesus went the route of antagonism. If there hadn't been a literature of the Devil, one would have to be invented.
When Jesus says the father of the Jews is a murderer, could he be saying (as had some classical writers), that their vaunted lineage from Adam through Seth was true and that the Seth of the Hebrews was the same one who had deep-sixed Osiris? Because if you read Manetho, you find that Moses had been a priest of Osiris. And he was fairly obviously assassinated by a Kenite priest.
In other words, there is an antagonism of two tribes since the Book of Genesis. The children of Cain and the children of Seth. And the Jews had spent 4,000 years bad-mouthing Cain -- the greatly respected hero of the Rechabites and Kenites. And David and his progeny were Kenites!
We have spent 2,000 years listening to the Flavian version of things and understanding Jesus to be an apparently confused Jew. But the prophesied Bethlehem was the one of Ephraim. There is a case to be made that it was Bet-Lahem of Galilee where the Christ was to be born. (See Karim el Koussa)
The sad thing is, the Name was EA. And the E was the claws of a Lion. And the A was drawn as the Great Heron depicted on Mount Horeb. GOD was the time when both showed up to work their magic of destruction and creation. And they are due back ... like next month!
Christianity is most certainly a conglomerate of many things.
Just the teachings of Jesus Christ, not a conglomerate.
Ooh, getting Frekey
you seem to ignore the fact that he said specifically, it's all these different Greek mystery schools that are all different, with different schools of thought. That's what he's calling the gnostics that predate christianity. You specifically name a version of gnosticism that believes that Yahweh is the devil.
Jacob I noticed you were saying basically the gnostics versus the Christians, the people who you're calling the Christians, in that very Protestant way, this would need to be better referred to as the orthodox. , Robert price refers to it as catholic, but that's because he's from Mississippi and he's using the type of lingo that he knows that people that he knows will be more familiar with. It's best to refer to them as the Orthodox. Just a suggestion. By saying the Christians, that's very much the way that a Christian would speak
It's so weird the way we keep calling almost everything that isn't an Abrahamic religion "pagan". Though to be fair I haven't heard anyone refer to Hinduism or Shinto as pagan. But the point being that they were such diverse religious movements it seems weird and kind of dismissive to lump them under one term like that.
I know right "pagan" is just a fake word like "gentile" lol just imaginry meaningless words that exist in imaginry, meaningless religion
Yeah so, the way that you're talking about marcyon is ignoring the fact that the only reason you know who marcian is is because of what the church fathers wrote against him. It is a lie to say that marcian reclassified his gospel, or that marcian edited and already existing gospel. This is what church fathers wrote about him long after he was dead. I actually also don't even think that marcian was excommunicated in his lifetime, I'm quite sure that came later also. When talking about this stuff, Josephus any of it, people always seem to fail to recognize that we have a very incomplete picture of this. But the thing that should be taken 100% is that you should never be confident in accusations hurled against anybody from the church fathers. This does not mean that the church fathers were wrong about everything. To the contrary, just like with all politics, when going against someone particularly egregious, the church fathers would probably be properly representing whatever it was they were talking about, the only problem with that is is there's no way to distinguish what that would be
It's Marcion, not Marcian. Marcian was a Roman Emperor.
Good point though, if it were Marcian, which it was not.
Jesus is the fulfillment of the pagan mysteries. His coming was revealed to the initiates of the Greater Mysteries. Christ made it possible for all to be saved, not just those initiated in the mysteries.
inaccurate
Completely and utterly wrong. . I've studied the mysteries for over 20 year's..it's all about knowing thyself..gnosis..actually directly experiencing the Spiritual side of oneself.. Jesus is no different than Odin or Osiris.. what we call "the dying God " myth.. yes it's a myth... it's an allegory for the sun which is in turn an allegory for your spirit... you clearly know nothing about the mysteries my friend
@@4everseekingwisdom690 actually Jesus is the Word Of God. God incarnate. Look up His historicity, far from a myth.
He's the fulfillment of the scriptures and The Law, God incarnate. Yes, because of Him all can be saved.
@@arcguardian I actually don't doubt that at all in fact the mysteries would often attach the stories to actual living people. The things attributed to him however are all standard mystery school philosophies. If you do your due diligence you will see that there are as much as 15 other "crucified " saviors prior to christ with almost identical stories
Highly suggest studying Albert Pikes Morals and Dogma free pdf downloads
Make straight your paths and
Preach the gospel
@Vegan Higler errrrr whattt huuuhhhh der what does that mean
Christianity and Catholicism were pagan to the Indigenous cultures of North and South America that already had their own religions.
I was under the impression that Jesus was the sun. The sun that will rise then dies then rise again.
Well let me watch it maybe before I comment my bad apologies
Might as well be God .
Our sun is what powers everything on this planet.
We wouldn't exist without it.
@veganhigler6541
It helps with their very existence of which none of us would be here without it
Gnostics didn't split from Christianity. The two are the SAME. Gnosticism just evolved into a different thing, like everything else, under the influence of the Roman Church like Walter Bauer says.
They aren't the same, and neither are Catholics. The fact the gnostic "gospels" aren't part of the cannon, should tell you more than enough.
@@arcguardian They're definitely the same. The Catholic canon was plagiarized from Marcion's canon. And it's the consensus of scholars that early Christianity was thoroughly Gnostic.
@@dharmadefender3932 gnostic gospels not the same as Christian gospels.
@@arcguardian They are. Gospel of Mark, Luke and John are Gnostic.
@@dharmadefender3932 keep going lol u stopped short of the rest of the gnostic gospels.
You miss the mark.
John the Baptist in Matthew is said to be Elijah, but you knew him not. Little my little from Luke to John, John the Baptist becomes less and less relevant.
Likewise, Jesus gets more and more exalted
I think the stories are built around Jesus being the Messiah, Jesus being an exalted prophet, and not Jesus being either God or son of god
I think it's wrong to say that Jesus is either presented as God or God's son. Mainly just because, I would actually argue that Jesus is represented as a prophet in most of Matthew and all of Mark, and definitely many sections of blue. Particularly everyone's favorite verse to say that Mary was a w****, and Mark when Jesus is called son of mary, which is what he's called in the Quran, and it mentions his brothers, that whole story is built around a quote, a quickie saying which is a true-ism, which is a prophet is never accepted in their hometown.
Clearly this story is built around Jesus being a prophet not Jesus being the son of God. Jesus could have resurrected and appeared to his followers and yet still just been a prophet. Christians like to say that the resurrection is proof of him being God himself, but we all know that it says that the father resurrects Jesus to say that the father and son are one is a development that comes long after the Gospels
No. "Paganos" just means country-folk. Do you mean Polytheistic god? Of course, by definition. All gods were "real" in antiquity. This is phrased all wrong.
Eh, yo! Jacob! Are you still having Price and Litwa on or is he now lame and scared of talking to people because Price boomer-posted on Facebook?
I already did have the two together, check the past live streams. Dr. Litwa now refuses to appear with Dr. Price ever again.
@@History-Valley That's so cringe. Because he made some goofy Facebook posts? Bruh. (I've seen your other video already, I was looking forward to it. Ah, well. I guess lame politics are ruining everything now).
Pagan 😂😂😂 jealous much but we idolize characters like wonder woman and superman right ? , Least they are real , please define pagan
Jesus = Iesa, church of Iesa
Israelite = is(isis/iesa) ra(amun ra) el(elohim/ el )
Oh perfect. Two Jews here to tell us about Jesus. I'm sure this will be completely unbiased. 😒
..as opposed to...?
@@andrewridge4978 someone who doesn't despise Jesus
@@jennyjen7000
Did Jesus despise himself ?
Jesus did not practice the pagan religion known as Judaism. What was a Jew 2000 years ago is totally different than the Jews of today. Look up Rev 2:9 & 3:9
4 min in I haven't learned anything, bye.
Thank you for heads up, much appreciated.
This is why you know not
This guy understands sci-fi as poorly as he understands religion.
All roads lead to Creating Christ... :)
(Of COURSE, there is a confluence of pagan influences...)
Lol
Only 2 roads, 1 broad and 1 narrow.