If I Could Choose Only One Work By...SCHOENBERG
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- Опубликовано: 8 фев 2023
- It Would Have To Be...Pierrot Lunaire
A work of genius whose freshness and ability to surprise hasn't diminished one iota in more than a century.
The List So Far...
1. Ravel: Ma Mère l’Oye (Mother Goose Ballet)
2. Bruckner: Symphony No. 7
3. Schubert: String Quintet in C major
4. Shostakovich: Symphony No. 4
5. Mahler: Symphony No. 2 “Resurrection”
6. Tchaikovsky: The Nutcracker
7. Debussy: Preludes for Piano (Books 1 & 2)
8: Handel: Saul
9. Mozart: Le Nozze di Figaro
10. Brahms: String Sextet No. 2 in G major
11. Vaughan Williams: Job
12. Bach: Goldberg Variations
13. R. Strauss: Four Last Songs
14. Berlioz: The Damnation of Faust
15. Haydn: “Paris” Symphonies (Nos. 82-87)
16. Wagner: Der Ring des Nibelungen
17. Beethoven: String Quartet No. 14 in C-sharp minor
18. Mendelssohn: Violin Concerto in E minor
19. Chopin: Preludes
20. Verdi: Rigoletto
21. Roussel: Symphony No. 2
22. Copland: Appalachian Spring (complete original ballet)
23. Grieg: Peer Gynt Suites Nos. 1 and 2
24. Bartók: Sonata for Two Pianos and Percussion
25. Prokofiev: Piano Concerto No. 2
26. Rimsky-Korsakov: Opera Suites (Scottish National Orchestra/Järvi) Chandos 
Видеоклипы
String quartet no. 2 with voice is also strikingly beautiful and mysterious. It is an original mix of romantic and atonal music. The version of the Petersen quartett with Christine Schaefer is fine.
Coming into the classical world from the strangest electronic music I think a lot of Schoenberg is terrific.
@@charold3 How is "strange" a bad thing?
That's like saying "Coming from Charlie Parker fan, I like Beethoven". But now because it's "harder to listen to" people must flaunt it.
@@finneganlindsay Well I don’t see a Parker & Beethoven connection at all, but I definitely see a connection to atonal classical music to something like Autechre.
@@finneganlindsay It’s not about flaunting anything either it’s about enjoying the music I listen to.
@@stackedactor1 of course it is just some snob trying to be clever.
I love feedback & distortion no problem whatsoever
Not what I was expecting but now I need to go relisten to it in any case!
I was thinking Variations for Orchestra presuming we needed a 12-tone work, but of course Pierrot Lunaire, which eliminates tonality very effectively without all of the fuss. Ultimately I think it is very healthy to be able to come up with a brilliant work of art that disposes of an essential accepted structural basis. Schoenberg taught us that we could dream big.
I would opt for the First Chamber Symphony op. 9 simply because it was the first of his works I heard and it made an immediate impact.
If I were a composer it's the sort of piece I would want to write.
The first time I heard Berg's Wozzeck in my high school years I had to next immediately listen to Pierrot for "closure" as it returns to sanity at the end; Wozzeck just leaves you in mounting horror and tragedy! I love them both, and think Pierrot is the right choice. Even Harry Partch thought that Schoenberg had arrived at a good solution to natural verbal expression.
A good pick. I really like that whole “atonal but not yet twelve tone” period. I know Schoenberg wanted to have more structure, but working on white hot inspiration and a fearless willingness to let the music do what it needed to do really worked. I think I’ve noted before that I think Hartleben’s translation into German is way better than the original French poems, which is rare.
"O alter Duft aus Märchenzeit." Fondly remember my first encounter with this piece, 50+ years ago, in the tapestry room at the Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum. I didn't completely get it on first hearing, but--unlike one person whose exit I couldn't fail to notice--I stayed to the end. Besides, one of the pleasures of classical performance in Boston (at least, as it was back in the day) is watching the philistines walk out.
One of my top ten favourite works of the classical euvre!
This work charmed and puzzled me since first hearing!
As brilliant as Pierrot Lunaire is, I would have to pick Moses und Aron as he left it in two acts - it's the apotheosis of all of his musical output in my opinion
Agreed.
My personal favorite, the one work of his I would keep in my collection if forced, is Gurrelieder. But Moses und Aron is absolutely the piece to represent Schoenberg and his style and method for Cancrizans' purposes.
Throw in the final act composed by Zoltán Kocsis. The whole live performance is on RUclips.
For me it would be the Violin Concerto (Hilary Hahn recording) - just because it shows how colourful and lyrical his music it can be when performed with thought and skill.
Oh yes! I've only listened to this a few times when I was a student in the late 1970's. The experience was unforgettable. I've listened to quite a bit of music since then but I haven't come across anything with that extraordinary level of expressive potency that the experience etched itself so indelibly on my memory cells, even if I go senile I won't forget that. Maybe it's time I get a recording just to see if my memory is even close.
Dave's comment about Pierrot Lunaire and cocktail 🍸 parties suggests to me a whole different category: Pieces Best Heard and Appreciated With a Snootful.
Verklärte Nacht was one of the pieces that got me into Classical music. Haven't listened to Pierrot Lunaire in many years, but will do so tonight.
I have a confession, when we listened to this work in the Essential Beginners series, I thought you were trolling us at first. I still have not warmed up to this nor Mr. Schoenberg. However, I did make a list of his "essential works" and made my way through them. The only thing I personally could see myself listening to again is Transfigured Night, Op.4 which I found a remastered version of on a recording titled The Best of Arnold Schoenberg that also has Chamber Symphony # 1. I know my pick is not representative of his work but someone else must agree with me or the recording title would have been something else - lol.
Like a couple of others, Verklärte Nacht was one of the pieces that got me addicted to classical music. The much-maligned Boulez Beethoven 5 was another. Should I be embarrassed to admit that it was the lush orchestral version with Karajan and the BPO that got me in? As only my second comment on this site, I know this may sound rather amateurish. But perhaps we should always remain thankful for the recordings that started us on our journey.
Never be embarrassed.
My anxiety is building in this series for SIBELIUS. So difficult. I know that Dave knows this composer inside and out, and he'll have good reasons for his choice. But I have to chime in, as no composer matters more to me. And what his music means to me most is the sound of the orchestra evoking nature, not as enjoyed by humans, but as if the forest itself is alive and singing. In contrast to Mahler, where culture permeates, in Sibelius - to the extent humans and their strivings are present - they are primordial, mythical, archetypal - part of nature, inside it, not regarding it from the outside. I know this is not musical, and may sound like BS. I recall Dave calling attention to the opening chord in the Lemminkainen Suite (i.e. symphony), how miraculously expressive with such economy of means. That's what I'm talking about: it expresses the natural world itself in which Lemminkainen takes his place and participates in the whole. That's why my choice would be TAPIOLA. It maximizes the expressive return on the fewest notes, reduces everything to the essential, evokes nature as if - in the guise of Tapio - it became capable of personal expression, voice. Not a background, but the main character. In Symphony No. 2 , and less so No. 5, the human shows through, cultural tropes shape the themes. In Tapiola, the human is utterly immersed in nature, naked of culture. At least, that is the illusion. OK, that's all. Forgive the length.
Sorry, just a bit more . . . musically, Tapiola is the most symphonic of the tone poems. Of course, it has a "kiss of death" quiet ending, but that's in the nature of things. And what an ending! Like a wave expiring, returning into the ocean, a cloud dissolving into the sky. Pure nature. I promise I'm done.
I would say either Tapiola or the Seventh Symphony. Maybe the 7th, just because it is a little more universal in its expressive scope.
Tapiola is absolutely terrific. It's the piece which got me interested in Sibelius, and it's still my favourite.
@David Stein: I really enjoyed this piece of writing. Well argued. I think that although the fifth symphony could seem to relate somewhat to the human triumph over evil arc we tend to attribute to the traditional 19th century symphony and major/minor dichotomy, I feel it is just as primordial and reflects man within nature as much as most of his mature works do, to paraphrase your own words. I too love Sibelius and it’s great to hear your passion. Not for this particular game, but Snöfrid is such an underrated piece for me. How do you like it?
@@marknewkirk4322 I don't disagree, but as soon as I consider a symphony, I cannot elevate one above the others - the last 4 are so perfect, each in its own way.
Mondestrunken at a cocktail party.
I think as a duo, Gilbert and Sullivan's magnum opus has to be The Yeomen of the Guard for its richness of humanity. However, for Sullivan himself I'd go with Princess Ida because it shows that Sullivan knew how to project a large-scale tonal structure on a work that perfectly portrays the themes: c minor as the key of battle, E Flat for royalty/power, and E for love/joy. Other works have a tonal structure in part, but Ida best illustrates how Sullivan used tonality along with tunes and orchestration to make it all work.
Plus if you do in fact make a video about Ida, you'll probably have to say "luuuuv" which I'm sure Cancrizans would appreciate, if he watches.
An excellent choice ! But I would especially hate to see his 5 Pieces for Orchestra, op. 16, disappear from the face of the earth ! This is a remarkable work in so many ways (the "melody-less" 3rd piece, for example, where tone colour is everything [a forerunner of Scelsi'?]). But , "forerunner" here or there -- it's just great, exciting music, full stop ! (Dave, I'd love to know what recording(s) you recommend!)
A survivor of Warsaw is my pick
So frightening and moving ....
against my expectations it works really well as a dance piece as well (choreographed by Glen Tetley in 1967)
hehe..after watching 100 of your videos in a row, i knew the answer before I even read what follows the ...🙂
Verklärte Nacht (Transfigured Night), Op. 4 is my choice. Pierrot Lunaire is also a great choice I guess.
I think Schoenberg is the single most misunderstood and least appreciated of all composers. He may not be the best composer, but he's the one whose riches have been the most neglected and ignored. It's such a shame, he has sooooo much to offer a listener who is willing to put in some work and suspend initial impressions. Pierrot Lunaire is a miracle.
Pierrot really fits the bill in the context of these talks - fiercely atonal, highly original in form. However, I think another Schoenberg candidate for saving is the Five Orchestral Pieces Op.16. In their less extrovert, more conventionally structured way, they are still incredibly forward looking pieces remarkable considering the fact they were written as early as 1909.
"Pierrot lunaire" made me like Schoenberg. First time I heard the excerpts directed by Glenn Gould for Canadian tv. To me also the 2nd String Quartet and the String Trio would be considerable. But the trio might be a little bit esoteric and the 2nd quartet is still clinging to the late romantic style. "Pierrot lunaire" breaks totally with the romantic aesthetics and presents a whole new world. It inspired the chamber orchestra / ensemble asthetics, that might be typical for the 20th century - e.g. Stravinsky's "Three Japanese Lyrics", "Cat's Cradle Songs" or "Pribaoutki". Perhaps this is the reason why Adorno mentions "Pierrot" so barely in his "Philosophy of New Music".
Another vote for the String Trio too!
the night transfigured under the direction of stokowski .... or pelleas and melisande ..... two magnificent pages for orchestra .... I have a little difficulty with schoenberg when it becomes a little too ''dodecaphonic'' ....Sorry
Ditto. But it has to be a really good performance of "Pierrot Lunaire".
I've never been a big fan of Pierrot Lunaire and Schoenberg is my favorite composer. I am generally not big on vocal works but I even prefer Ode to Napoleon. However if I were to salvage one work it would have to be the Piano Concerto.
It has to be acknowledged that Pierrot Lunaire is one of Schoenberg's most listenable works. The pieces are short; each one is unique; many of the texts are witty, as is the music; the instrumentations are colorful; all of that together makes the atonality go down easy; and the flat-out weirdness of it all is just plain fun.
So I'm emboldened to address Boulez, whose music I know you don't like, David. (In this instance, you're a fearsome stand-in for Cancrizans himself.) But my choice would be Le Marteau sans Maître, which is a close, but dour, relative of Pierrot Lunaire. The variety of colors in the instrumentation are fascinating, capturing just a bit of Beatnik-era cool (flute + bongos.) The sections are reasonably short, though hardly succinct, as in P.L. The texts and Boulez's scheme of organization and all that is absolutely incomprehensible, but that in itself makes it interesting as an artifact of the still young composer. Whaddya say?
I say "Rituel"--a much better piece, and no silly text to deal with.
I second the Hammer without a Master for Boulez, if we decide to save any of his music. Regarding Schoenberg’s disciples, for Berg I’m calling Wozzeck and for Webern, the piano variations (op.27).
@@DavesClassicalGuide I'm not familiar with that one. I'll put it on my listening list.
@@rbmelk7083 We're in agreement with Wozzeck! Webern is a tough one. Seems a shame not to have an ensemble work to present his klangfarbenmelodien.
"Le Marteau sans maître" isn't dour...some of the movements make me want to dance. Aside from the piano sonatas, I find Boulez' compositions quite pleasing. Not sure why people find him cold and unlistenable....
Not a huge Schoenberg fan, but I do love the Theme and Variations for Band....so for me, that would be the one I would save. If we aren't allowed concert band works, then I would save Gurrelieder.
If you're not a huge Schoenberg fan then you really shouldn't be commenting--the point of this, as I've said many times, is to save the most characteristic or distinctive work, not the one you happen to know or like best.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I give up. Geez. Do you have any friends at all? Why do you have to be like this? So negative and critical? Can’t you just be nice for a change?
@@LyleFrancisDelp I'm nice all the time, and I'm seldom negative, actually, as these videos attest. I made a specific request regarding comments to these videos, and this series especially. You are free to ignore those requests, but I am free to call you out accordingly if you do. That seems pretty fair to me, and my response to you was neither unkind nor negative.
@@LyleFrancisDelp Please stick around. I've found Dave's brand of nice plays best on a slightly toughened skin. 😊
@@LyleFrancisDelp 🤣🤣🤣
Considering that Schoenberg's radical twelve-tone technique was, for better or for worse, highly influential in the development of 20th century music, I would have chosen one of his many twelve-tone compositions. Personally, I have a soft spot for the highly contrapuntal String Quartet #4 (sounds like dyslexic Bach:).
Sometimes even Bach sounds like dyslexic Bach :--)
Free atonality was by no means less influential than the twelve tone system.
Even Stravinsky liked Pierrot, and the two men were not on friendly terms.
PUCCINI attended the premier and engaged Schoenberg in shoptalk afterwards!
Even Puccini liked "Pierrot". And it inspired Stravinsky's "Three Japanese Lyrics", "Pribaoutki" & "Cat's Cradle Songs". The last two where premiered in their original ensemble scoring at Schoenberg's club for private performances. I don't know, why Schoenberg didn't approve, what Stravinsky was doing. Webern did.
@@Sulsfort Schoenberg and Stravinsky were both pretty vain. Stravinsky was much more personable and popular, but he had thin skin.
The bad blood between them began when Stravinsky turned to Neo-Classicism and went around saying everybody else was just rehashing Romanticism, including Schoenberg. Schoenberg published his Three Satires, Op. 28, that made fun of "little Modernsky" and obliquely accused him of superficiality. Then Adorno published a book contrasting a saintly Schoenberg with a supposedly Fascist Stravinsky, and even though Schoenberg criticised Adorno for it, the damage was done. They were practically neighbours in Los Angeles, but they never spoke.
@@Sulsfort Also, Stravinsky and Schoenberg were on opposite sides of World War I - Stravinsky doubly so, as a Russian with ties to France. From a post-World War II perspective, that admittedly seems ridiculous. Both men said some things during World War I that did not serve them well afterwards. And Stravinsky was much too cozy with Mussolini and with Nazi Germany before WWII began. Adorno (much as I detest him) was not far from the truth about Stravinsky's politics.
Pierre Lunaire is a bit too demented for my tastes. I'd go for his Chamber Symphony No. 1, which, in its kaleidoscope of (chamber) orchestral color and emotional extremes, is just the right amount of demented for me!
Hi Dave, do you know any good books on Schoenberg?
Actually, no, but I'm sure someone here can make a recommendation.
Charles Rosen's is good, although not always an amicable read.
Read "Style and Idea"--it is a collection of Schönberg's own writings about music, so you can learn a tremendous amount about Schönberg (and music in general) from that.
@@pelodelperro I like the Rosen - -he makes the interesting / controversial observation that in PL it would be more of a problem if the dynamics were disregarded than if the clarinet part was played in the wrong (ie. not transposed) key. My composition teacher of the time was very ruffled when I mentioned this to him and said Rosen (despite being an amazing mind) didn't know anything about composition.
Now you have me thinking about Alban Berg… I do think Cancrizanz would go for Wozzek because it has plenty of pulp and the story moves so well. Moreover, it has contrasting musical styles. Lulu is incomplete, so it is ruled out, imo.
Remember, Cancrizans doesn't care what we pick. But I like what you identify in Wozzeck. And, lest we forget, it's short!
I had an extensive discussion on why Lulu is the better choice over Wozzeck in the comments yesterday on the Rimsky-Korsakov video. I don't want to repeat myself, but if you like Berg, then I urge you to take a look at what I wrote in my multiple replies.
Yes, I agree that Lulu is more representative. If incompleteness (even if it be only 7 minutes) is not a disqualifying feature before a deity, then Lulu is certainly a plausible choice (as is the Violin Concerto). However, to my knowledge, no such work in the series is as incomplete as Lulu. I don’t know whether it’s significant, I’ll let the high priest decide such matters, but it is worth pointing out.
@@daniellibin5254 the question isn't about completeness but if a work is most representational of a composer. No matter what anyone believes the "true" Lulu to be, it is Berg's longest work...by far. So two-act torso + Lulu Suite material from the third act OR full three-act completion--there is more authentic Berg in either version than in any other single piece he finished. We have a massive template in Lulu no matter how you look at it as being an extremely transparent example of Berg's most developed style that he would have continued with because he already did so following the order of his penultimate and ultimate compositions (referring to Lulu as the penultimate, even though Der Wein, also a twelve-tone work, was the penultimate completed work). However, I believe that the Violin Concerto is also more representational than Wozzeck because free dodecaphony was Berg's new course, and musicologists have commented on the fact of how fast Berg finished the concerto. Forget his health or that stupid dead girl (which is a vastly overhyped component of his motivation anyway)--Berg was far more skilled at adapting his tone rows and with less second guessing in the VC than in Lulu, which suggests that he had come into his own regarding an application of style that was refined to the point of second nature. I still vote Lulu>VC because of the explicit role of the voice and vocal line, as I stated in Dave's Rimsky video. And let's remember too that Berg himself stylized himself as an opera composer first and foremost, whereas, conversely, Schoenberg was simply a composer who wrote operas.
Then, yes, Lulu is the obvious choice by dint of quantity of representative music, just as The Ring lays that claim for the Wagner selection. And vocal music was central to Berg throughout his career (7 Early Songs). So let it be LULU!!!
I am afraid I have to agree with Cancrizans on this one . . . Leonard Bernstein once asked the rhetorical question, "Why was Beethoven a great composer? . . . . Because he knew what note HAD to come next!" These atonal, modern composers? They don't have a clue! 🙃
Who is Cancrizans?
As a very ignorant teen, I invented12 tone music along with a friend, one rainy lunchtime at school. Now obviously I found out later that we were 60 years too late, and also we never actually got around to writing any music with the system, but still... it's always felt rather silly to me ever since.
Not a fan of this piece tbh, Transfigured night has to be my fav