Dear David, general comments: I've loved music long enough to have wasted all of my money as a kid on terrible bootlegs and a few glorious ones but all of my money went into music collecting. I never took any formal classes on music theory or history. You are reigniting my passion and I'm obviously not alone. I listen to you regularly. You have packed lifetimes of music appreciation into these videos and you are creating an educational legacy that will endure. Great taste is the product of breadth and depth of exposure. With the inestimable volume of recorded music now available the only way to navigate everything is with high standards and strong opinions. People simply do not have the time to figure it out on their own. But with these finely tuned lectures you are condensing and disseminating not just the greatest recordings but also a framework and methodology for understanding music through the generosity of your wisdom, experience, objectivity and sensitivity. You've already brought me so much fulfillment, knowledge and joy...and laughter. You are a lot funnier than you know. In every video there's at least one off cuff line you casually pull out that has me in tears. I'm hooked. Also and perhaps most importantly you are an excellent communicator of culture and art. Such people are a scarce commodity. Your talks are almost conversational it's uncanny. It feels like you are just talking directly to me. One of the reasons I didn't study art in college was that the professors had less passion than I did and put me to sleep. I'll stop myself I just wanted to reinforce what others have said far more articulately. This is just from my heart without proper editing so I apologize. Sincere Thanks.
I would encourage all young musicians, especially conductors, to listen to this excellent, factual and realistic presentation by David Hurwitz. A respect and awareness of tradition need not obliterate one's individuality or originality.
Substitute Smetana for Prokofiev and Mr. Madorsky’s comment is word-for-word what I would have written. Maestro Kuchar is one of those conductors, like Wit and Bakels, who will ALWAYS deliver a performance I know that I will want to hear. Thank you, Maestro!
Maestro. Thank you for your thoughtful comment and for Dave’s incredibly informative talk. Maestro. I have many of your recordings. Special shout to you on your EXCELLENT naxos Creston and Kalinnikov symphony recordings. Gorgeous. In fact I am going to listen to the Creston right now. Bravo!
This is the best of your videos I have watched, Mr. Hurwitz, and also the best one on musical performance practice that this amateur has ever watched. Back in the 80s, when I first "got into" classical music, I was seduced by the HIP crowd, and only in the last few years-thanks in large part to your writings-did I extricate myself from this cult. Thank you, sir!
A great talk summarizing a lot of key problems in contemporary performance. Too many conductors try too hard to stand out, with predictable results. I generally love Stokowski’s sometime bizarre interventions, but they are not to be imitated by others. As music education programs exploded in the latter half of the 20th-century, heterogeneity of sound set in and most orchestras tend to sound the same. So conductors have to make odder and odder choices to try to create a new sound, rather than an interchangeable one. With so many young conductors also being chugged out through music programs and competitions, the pressure to stand out in a crowd is fierce. There’s no tidy solution to this problem other than to reward the best performances with our hard-earned currency.
Full-heartedly agree on the last statement. Just being yourself (that is, if you are a somebody) is often enough to stand out. Just experience the music and SHOW how much it means to you... even the well-trodden repertoire may bloom in new fragrant blossoms. Point in case, just last Christmas watched Mirga Grazinyte's BBC performance with Birmingham. B's Leonore III overture, of all of 'em. And it struck me as wide-eyed inspired and fresh. The girl made her mark, even as she seemed not to conduct but rather be swept along by the tide at some points. Not to mention there was real trust in her orchestra, instead of micro-managing an ultimately chrestomatic score. The new generation has some promise, let's hope the industry does not get into their heads.
I am pleased this was prompted by you tube today as I really think it is one of your best videos. Very truthful comments about performance practice and the legitimacy of some of those practices. Efforts at genuine research and trying to reflect the results in performance are surely to be appreciated, but there is a tendancy to latch on to one particular aspect , like a fetish, and overplay and sell that idea- for example the non vibrant , colourless tone that was favoured by certain in the early and baroque music world some years ago now. Your conductor story is not a surprise - said conductor mistaking the job of a music critic with that of a publicist. Alongside dedicated , polite and talented conductors there have no doubt always been a few who see themselves as more important than the music they perform or the musicians they work with. Times are changing and such people are now considered a liability to potential employers.
Very informative and insightful, and also a very well organized presentation. The vast majority of us lack access to the mysterious inner-world of symphonic music, and those who produce it, so it is very helpful to hear from someone who has had that kind of access.
When I was a conducting student, I once attended a concert of the Dresden Staatskapelle with Sawallisch, and one of my friends made, in my opinion, the best compliment on can make about a conductor. He told me: "I forgot Sawallisch was there, I was so lost in the beauty of the music". My introvert side, and my disgust of podium antics make me wonder if it wouldn't be better to put a screen to hide the conductor. I love when the audience tell me how beautiful the piece was after the concert, I am rather disappointed when the audience talks about my gestures. Of course, it would have been a pity to hide Bernstein's superb conducting, but there aren't a lot of Bernstein around, and way too many ersatz. Tuning down the ego of the man on the podium and reminding him that he's there to serve the composer is essential. So rather than this radical (and probably silly) idea of hiding the conductor, let's teach conducting students humility toward the score. Your comments, dear Dave, are, as always, spot on!
Hi Dave- I listened to the Cobra Beethoven 9- is it supposed to be a joke? couldn't believe what I was hearing. Now you're right about that one- a conductor 'behaving badly'.
Hi Dave. You might like this story. Penderecki was shouting at the organist at the morning rehearsal of his St Luke Passion with the BBCSO in the Royal Albert Hall for the Proms. A brave young man percussionist loundly said "Don't shout". Penderecki stopped shouting.
In my personal experience, Penderecki was a very kind and gentle soul, but with a sort of steely strength that surfaced now and then. I can imagine he would have been embarrassed for shouting.
A very good friend of mine was principal oboe of a very well known orchestra. According to him most orchestral musicians acknowledge the need for a conductor but hold very few of them in esteem. There are sycophants in every orchestra who will have their own agenda for fawning over certain conductors, but most orchestral musicians view conductors with a certain degree of scepticism!
Sir, I’m new to your channel and have been watching your content all weekend, nothing else. I’ve learned a lot and I’ve laughed a lot. I agree with you, and I’m a HIP fan. Such a wonderful channel, thank you.
Thank you for this brief, focused, pointed, and down to earth opinion. "If it sounds like trash... it probably is." Yes! And orchestras today are very good - some of them were pretty good in years gone by as well - I remember Sir Thomas (Beecham) saying somewhere that the orchestras usually know their piece better than the young conductor come to teach them how to play it...
Great video, David. I'd be interested in your views on Fritz Reiner, especially in his Chicago years. Chicago was/is a world-class ensemble. How much did Reiner have to do with their excellence during his tenure there? I listen to the music they made with him and I'm always amazed at the razor-sharp precision of the music making. Reiner also had a way of whipping up a palpable sense of atmosphere in his recordings. Although I am aware of his reputation as a task master, the music is so thrilling that it makes me wonder how much the orchestra was improved by Reiner's strictness. I don't know if this is worthy of an entire video, but your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
Ideologies obviously have taken over big parts of the world. Yet before your explaining the influence of period instrument academics on musicians nowadays I wasn't aware of this ideological deformation in classical music.
On a slight tangent, I recall Richard Taruskin doing a lecture at Amherst College years ago in which he quoted Boris Berman citing Milhaud's comments about Prokofiev playing his own works in a metrically regular manner. Then, Taruskin played Berman's perfectly metronomic rendition of the Gavotte, Op. 32, No. 3 -- followed by Prokofiev's own very flexible (and much more interesting) recording of the same piece. What are we supposed to believe, some general second hand comment, or our ears? And which way makes more musical sense? Jeesh! Musicality beats concept every time. Thanks for the great talk.
No argument, sir, but I would add a couple more logs to the fire: For me, one of the big changes in conducting occurred with the advent of recordings. Prior, a conductor would have to learn a piece of music through studying the score. And I think that's what differentiated interpretations. Someone would have to learn the music from study and reflection, especially with pieces that weren't a regular part of the repertoire. But from the 40's/50's on, all it takes is listening to different recordings to create a 'Cliff Notes' for a particular piece and a conductor is free to take bits and pieces from here and there to create 'their' version. The other is modern travel where a conductor can be anywhere in the world with a day's travel. Before the 1960's/70's this just wasn't possible so even when there were 'guest' conductors, they tended to have residencies where they'd have time to establish a working relationship with an orchestra. Today (from what I understand as a non-performer) it's jet in, have a couple rehearsals, and off to the races. Then jet out and repeat somewhere else. The irony is that while both of these factors have contributed to bringing music to the masses, they've undercut long established routines for cultivating musicianship.
I thought this too but didn't word it nearly as well as you in my head. Two of the leading reasons for why accessibility of music is often coupled with degeneration.
@jamiehaenisch8190 easy access seems to degenerates just about everything. If its easy to get, its not appreciated. Before recordings, traveling hundred of miles to hear Beethovens 9th, and never having the chance again, made for an unforgettable memory. Now that we all have 10 versions . I cant decide which one to hear so I dont listen to any of them. My father went AWOL and hitchiked to Vienna for a performance of Rosenkavelier. ( didnt get caught). No one has to do that now, but no one has that passion either. The good with the bad. And there is no going back. Its made charlatan conductors more plentiful too. They can memorize recordings and get along pretty well without studying the score. The orchestra knows but not the majority of the public, who also barely scratch the surface. If the conductor gives them the " bright shiny object" and some noisy fortissimi , they enthusiatically give standing ovations to very mediocre performances. Astute observation and something that isnt discussed much. The emperor has no clothes.
I think one of the problem is that there are already so many great recordings of standard works that the conductors feel pressured to bring out something new, something different and ’fresh’. When it becomes too forced and the actual music is forgotten, the end result can be a mess.
Imagine a time when one was lucky to hear ,say, Beethovens 9th, once in ones lifetime, and many would walk a hundred miles to do so. When it was over, it was gone. Only what you could remember as a souvenir. Records became the permanent storage, and the daily delivery system. Since youtube, its all too easy. Its killing the live experience I'm afraid.
Statements like that are annoying. Everyone interprets, there's no such thing as objectively "playing what's in the score." Toscanini used to cultivate the same image and it was always b.s.
@@bdc1117 I agree. I think the issue is that "interperetation" has these days become synonymous with misinterperetation--that is, deliberate "disobedience" to the score and the composers's intent. So in saying "I will play it the composer's way" or "I don't interperet," I think musicians are less claiming to be directly, perfectly channeling the spirit of the composer and more stating that they try to obey the composer's intent as closely as possible in their interperetations rather than deliberately overreaching.
Monteaux took Beethoven’s 7th 3rd mvmt trio way too slowly for it to be anything but an interpretation (putting aside for a moment that anything is an interpretation). It was lovely, though.
Your talk has made me wonder if the whole project of recording the classical canon has reached something of an endpoint. Stereo emerged in the 1950s and digital recording in the 1980s, and with each innovation there was an actual reason to re-record the main repertoire pieces. But there are now so many great performances with such great sonics, it is difficult to see in many cases what a new artist can contribute. BTW, I listened to the Maximianno Cobra Beethoven 9th and was pretty shocked. I readjusted the speed to 1.75x on RUclips and it sounded vaguely normal, but looked quite weird.
The first performance of Beethoven 7 had 4 first and 4 second vls and to top it off only 2 horns in A playing for that time almost impossible parts. The first of number 9 needed a piano to cover missing instruments. This is all historically documented. Toscanini was born just a few yrs after Rossini‘s death. Now I was born in 1951 and had the opportunity to know a lot of old BSO players. They carried on the traditions of the 19th Century. Just listen to the first BSO RCA recordings with Karl Muck, around 1912. From the historical practice there are things we can learn when we avoid believing the dogmatic bullshit of Prof Dr Otto Holzkopf from the Stiftung Keineahnung.
I just wanted to say I know nothing about classical music or anything other than reggae and dancehall but I like the detail of this it's very interesting I've been listening to your vids for hours
Excellent talk David and very true. An extra thing in the Netherlands, where I live, is that the managers of the orchestra's are convinced that in order to attract new and young audiences to the concert hall, conductors must absolutely be hunks. Having a dashing appearance is necessary. The Netherlands Opera new conductor Lorenzo Viotti is only talked about because he is so handsome and presents himself half naked on his Instagram account. It's all PR and it's killing the value and dignity of the profession. It's all about stunts.
Very true, he did some wonderful recordings back in the days. He's generally underestimated, in my point of view. But he recently has become one of those langsamer conductors who slow down the tempo to the point music stops being cohesive.
I really looked forward zo this video, and the fact you mentioned Cobra is even funnier. I really wait to detailed survey on his strange interprertations. A fan from Slovakia
Excellent contribution, David. Thank you. I think that all what you describe fits fit the spririt of this time: revolting against legacy, against any tradition, coupled with the marketing need for "differentiation"
Hey Dave! Great video, as usual. I have to say, I found that last story on the 'hot-shot' conductor to be really shocking. I can only guess who it might have been, but it just goes to show, do they really care about the music? I am a regular concert-going student and have come across more upsetting experiences at the opera house than in the concert hall, but maybe that's a whole other topic... I used to live in Spain before moving to do my master's and whenever some famous orchestra came along for a tour, they usually (not always) gave under-rehearsed and run-of-the-mill performances . But then a relatively minor orchestra would come along and blow your socks off.
The scherzo sounds like a waltz--the fact that anyone was delusional enough to actually think this was what Beethoven intended is absolutely glorious. We must treasure this recording at all costs.
This is spot on. Would much rather listen to the conductors of the past than the gimmicky, superficial effects of today. One particular irritating trait I notice today in the concert hall is string phrasing that deliberately starts softer at the start of the phrase, gets louder in the middle and then tails off at the end of the phrase. Like a repeated hairpin but without it being written into the score.
Here on RUclips, the bonkers notion that Beethoven has to be played twice as slow has spawned a borderline cult. On social media, it's actually HIP folks who point out how shoddy the theory is, to their credit.
@@fearworks7249 I used to get videos by that Wim moron in my RUclips feed all the time. I had to thumbs down a whole ton of his horsecrap to make it go away. He is EXACTLY what is wrong with music today. The German's have a great word for guys like him - Klugscheisser. The funny thing is he's just bringing the tempo lunacy full circle.
@@marknewkirk4322 That guy drives me up the wall! Even the way he talks seems to encapsulate how tendentious he is. And his pianism is crap! He's an amateur (nothing wrong with that) and so he can't even begin to make a reasonable case with his own performances. He is most insane when he argues that Chopin's ETUDES are to be played at least half as slow as a professional virtuoso can play them! It all seems so self-serving. It allows him to record himself playing the entire Hammerklavier sonata and present it as artistically valid. I'm an amateur pianist who similarly loves to tackle pieces far, far beyond my ability--but I keep it to myself. I don't even subject friends to it.
Having played Schumann 3 Beethoven 4 ( that's a win for Beethoven) with Norrington over 30 years ago, I have never been able to come up with the words to describe the experience. " "Hopeless fraud" works. Thanks.
I’m loving your videos. I am so seriously considering becoming an insider to classics today, if for no other reason, so I can find out your top 10 Giulini recordings. But, I am deeply saddened that you had a bad experience with Manfred Honeck. I have grown to absolutely love what he’s doing in Pittsburgh, based on what I’m hearing live, and based on his Bruckner 9 and Shostakovich 5. But I’ve also grown to love and respect you and your videos. So calling out Honeck deeply troubles me. You are absolutely right about one thing for sure, and that is the pressure on these conductors to distinguish themselves from the rest of the pack is very real. And a lot of that is because we are inundated with massive numbers of recordings. What makes one recording of Mahler 9 stand out from the myriad of others? So it’s not just HIP pressure. It’s because there are so many many recordings. Thanks for what you do. Please consider forgiving Honeck. For some reason, I want you to like and respect him, unless he really has gone over the deep end. J
It's not a question of forgivenes. There's nothing personal here. When he does great work I'll say so, as I often have (check out the reviews on classicstoday.com--they are free).
I saw a new young conductor named Tianyi Lu w/ the LA Phil. Everything straight, direct. What made her special was her uncontained enthusiasm. There was almost always a huge smile on her face. No histrionics like Bernstein, but just encouragement of the orchestra and look of excitement. Hope she gets a permanent post at LA.
Dear David, may I suggest a fourth point? Many of today's conductors never studied composition! So they are not able to "hear" a score in their brain, but only to hear it from recordings.
There are something like 900 professional or semi- professional orchestras in the US. Are there 900 great, or even very good, conductors? There are perhaps 20 in the world we talk about, and their greatness is up for debate. So, the vast majority of conductors are between incompetent and mediocre. The public is about as sophisticated as its going to get. The future looks bleak. Grateful for my records and RUclips!
@@jefolson6989 Would you include Dudamel in the 20? Just asked cause i like him a lot. I saw a video on youtube years ago of the march to the scaffold and it was great.
@@buschovski1 from what little I've heard and reports of trusted friends, definately YES. But I have a hard time naming a full 20 who are presently active. Make your own list, its not as easy as you would think! If you forget fame and PR, and you use the same criteria you would with Szell, Boehm, Klemperer, let alone Bernstein and Karajan, Abbado , Tennstedt, Solti even Levine, then whats left is Muti.... Stuck already. Lucky I began going to concerts when the a few greats from the 40,50,60s were still active.
interminable is the word to describe it. I could only sample the beginning of each movement and the 'prestissimo', which is a normal allegro. The scherzo is especially dire. Well played though, but will need Gardiner for detox.
Truly thank you, Dave! I have rather often left concerts disappointed, and you manage somehow to dress the issue in words. That should have been done a long time ago, because it is a development that´s not healthy for the music world. Though I don´t quite share your view on period instruments (I actually think they have given us a lot of interesting input, even if some of the experts also in that field have gone nuts), I think that you succeed in pointing out some major features behind this trend. Maybe one could add that we in all areas live in a tradition-lacking time, and classical music is in no way immune to that. But what I think makes this possible more than anything is that a large proportion of the concertgoers WANT to be deceived and seduced - the more speculative, the more appreciated. Or maybe we just sit a box of besserwissers who look down of those who want the show. But if that´s so, I think classical music have a sad future, living on just by being a show think.
Re: period instruments, I agree with you and have never said otherwise. I don't understand why anyone things I dislike period instruments when I am careful to distinguish the good stuff from the insanity.
I would say that Harnoncourt is a negative example. He does best in music he thinks is not very important. If it's "Important", he tends to distort the music very self-consciously in order to make his points about it.
Harnoncourt had a disassociation with modern life, I found. He would wring his hands and shout 'Dirty Noises' for any electronic external sound, be it air-conditioning or a public announcement system in the lobby during a rehearsal. It always reminded me of the wicked witch: 'I'm melting'. Having said that he had clear ideas to convey, it just wasn't my taste.@@DavesClassicalGuide
Hello Dave, I have been lwatching your channel for some time now and I find it excellent. It seems to me it would be a great idea to take all of your introductory comments and put them into a book!! It probably would be worth the time to do it and I am sure it would be sold out pretty fast. Your ideas are realy great - I would by it immediately. Please, think about it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Kudos, Dave... Reaching to that very comprehensive and complete conclusion has obviously taken a larger part of your life. I think you hit the nail spot on in every way, especially the story about the interview is just great... But perhaps the public is also partially to blame for the whole persona-cult? I feel, at least in Europe, it is... I've heard concertgoers say some pretty questionable stuff as well. Or is that just part of the same vicious circle?
Thanks as always, David. While I don't remember where I saw the quote, I recall Pierre Boulez asking rhetorically (I'm paraphrasing, but I think accurately) "Why bother recording something if you aren't contributing anything new?" I must say, as a listener and a rank musical amateur I don't get the "Doing something new, for newness' sake", but I suppose that from the standpoint of a conductor I can understand the differentiating urge. I happen to be a Richard Strauss fan, and in addition to versions of, say, "Also Sprach Zarathustra" that I acquired in my teen years some (okay, many) decades ago, I've acquired others here and there, and accumulated still others in the process of buying box sets of this or that conductor/orchestra. I just went back and began counting; fourteen iterations, at which point I became bored, and stopped. Truth to tell, I could probably have been happy for a lifetime with just Karajan/Vienna and Ormandy/Philadelphia, my initial encounters. Were I in the conducting biz, I might feel impelled to put my own stamp on an important piece of the repertoire, but what could I really expect to add at this juncture that wasn't in some way contrived or mannered? I purchase some stuff (e.g. Chailly/Lucerne) out of curiosity as to how the most recent enhancements in sound and engineering might alter my listening experience, but I don't really anticipate hearing any interpretive breakthroughs. Not ones that I'll welcome, anyway. Just some quick thoughts; thanks again for these gifts of your time and knowledge.
That is just the problem. Modern conductors don't just have to impress and entertain an audience, they have to compete against all the great recordings by great conductors of the 20th century. This was not a problem before recordings, nor in the first few decades of recorded music when recordings of any particular work were still relatively rare.
Thank you for this great reflection. Your discussion of conducting traditions and how some of the period instrument/early music people have destroyed those traditions reminds me of how the use of portamenti in opera, including in Italian opera, has been systematically eliminated from modern performance practice. The literalists insist that it only happens ‘where the composer indicates it,’ yet we literally have recordings of singers who actually worked with (say) Puccini directly or with conductors who worked with Verdi or Puccini - and virtually all of those recordings contradict the literalist perspective. (I’m inclined to say that the same might even apply to a lesser extent to German lieder.). Evidently, portamenti is a function of legato in Italian vocal music, rather than a special effect. Are these changes the result of a lack of historical knowledge, or the result of something else?
BTW, the primacy of Beethoven in the early 19th century symphony concerts is reflected by the New York Philharmonic programs, the orchestra did four concerts in each of its first two seasons 1842-44, a Beethoven Symphony was the concert opener for 5 out of the 8 concerts (the other 3 concerts had as openers Beethoven Egmont Overture, the Mozart Jupiter Symphony and Spohr's 1st Symphony--the programs are online). It seemed like the way you programmed a concert back then was to start with a big piece by Beethoven and then play lighter stuff afterward, including solos, opera arias and usually an overture or other shorter piece for the finale. Composers for the concert finales included Weber (several different overtures), Kalliwoda, Romberg, Lindpainter and Herold. By the 1880s the big symphony had migrated to the end of the program and was sometimes by someone other than Beethoven, forming a pattern that seems to have held to the present day.
When a famous violinist was asked about historically informed performance , the famous violinist said it was hysterical. Despite the joke somentruth. I love the rhythm of toscanini or elegiac quality of Walter. Thank goodness there is so much of theirs to select
I read a new article on a group studying Beethoven's metronome and his metronome markings which said something along the lines that he may have just been simply looking at the other of the metronome (which moves faster) and when you look at the correct end of the metronome the traditional tempos most conductors have been using for the last hundred years are already correct. But anyway, interesting talk. I admit I don't follow many new conductors because of many of the things you mentioned but mainly because many seem to be trying too hard to set themselves apart instead of just following the score, leading with some passion and not trying to manage every single detail and just keep the scope of the work as a whole together into a form that sounds natural.
Beethoven's metronome marks were not in fact based on his experience using an actual metronome. They were based on written tempo charts that gave markings for each movement designation. Factor in the fact that the machine itself was likely quite fallible from one prototype to the next, and the possibility of inaccuracy is magnified many times over. This leaves aside the aesthetic and musical arguments concerning practicality in realtime performance on instruments of the period, the likely flexibility of pulse within a movement (totally unlike the mechanical accuracy of so many HIP performances today), the acoustics of the performance space, etc. The whole business is such a mess that we're far better off when musicians operate by what makes the most sense at any given time.
Its proven that conductors can have a new fresh approach without using gimmicks and detracting from the score. Take Litton's new release of Prokofiev symphonies for example. You reviewed these with glowing praise and I'm in total agreement. Of course BIS recording expertise is a major factor in highlighting the beauty of these performances.
When the misbehavior of Conductors is involved, the worst of the lot is the guy that was the MD at the Florida Orchestra in Tampa. Reviews indicated that he had to have at least 2000 fingers, that all wiggled some sort of "direction"... Didn't use a baton because he had 10 of them. Well, I ran into a trio of the orchestra's musicians complaining at an ATM. I asked.... And it turns out that Irwin Hoffman decided to take a whole symphony at double time. Why? He wanted to go home early, and "The audience will never know...." (yeah.. right... ) Irwin had been a standby in Chicago as I remember, but could actually conduct in Tampa and St Petersburg... The orchestra hated him... he hated the orchestra, and it showed. He finally got no contract renewal, and there was a hunt for a new conductor, and the orchestra settled on Jahja Ling. Amazing things happened at that point. That was the year after I became the recordist.. (Mr Microphone...) -- The Musicians during my first recording session were aggressive... I spoke with the Shop Steward, and told him I was **donating** my services to the orchestra because the orchestra could not afford me. I was doing it to help the orchestra... and suddenly had 70 close friends... Got all the excitement from the back stage areas...
I have just listened to Cobra's Beethoven 9th, and oh.. My... Goodness was that painful to watch and listen to! If I haven't listened to your explanation before hand, I would have thought that my connection was lagging or something. It was so so slow and completely altered, I didn't recognize any Beethoven in it!!!!!
Micheal Gielen was a real rarity in recent times. He worked in Germany with one orchestra (SWR Symphony) more or less later in life and it produced a unique sound under his direction. Earlier, Toscanini conducted the world premiere of La Boheme and recorded it and he played cello in the world premiere of Verdi's Otello and recorded that too. You're absolutely right about recent performance practices. You're also right about Norrington; what an absolutely dreadful Mahler 9. (I'll stay with Karajan's 1982 or Bernstein's NYPO, there.)
@@AlexMadorsky I understand why you appreciate Gielen's Mahler. It's outstanding. The Rosbaud Mahler set Dave recommended is worth hearing too if you haven't heard it already.
I had to sample the cobra 9th on RUclips. A 27 minute first movement? Its so absurd its almost funny. Yet all those comments on their calling the performance revelatory, the only REAL performance that counts. I am amazed anyone finds,,pleasure in it. Paul G.
Long, long ago, I recall reading an opinion piece about the current state of popular music. The conclusion was much the same. "In the old days" performers had years, even decades, to grow, mature, refine and articulate their unique message/contribution. Nowadays they have to grab the public's attention right away, and keep the focus on themselves; otherwise, they become irrelevant, and popular focus moves on to the next hot thing. I've never forgotten that as I observe the shenanigans of popular music "stars." Apparently, the same dynamic is at work in the classical music industry.
I'm hoping Hoeneck doesn't go down that path, considering how fresh and genuine his recordings were of Dvorak 8th and the Eroica. Maybe the Beethoven 9 challenged him too much to relax? Past conductors battled with it and changed their approach, especially as they got older. We'll see, I guess. My heroes of 21st Century conducting are the men and women who find new or forgotten scores and bring them stunningly to life: Gil Rose in Boston or Kenneth Woods in England for instance. Why compete with Toscanini and Karajan and Giulini and Szell etc when you can do something they didn't do?
I’m sorry but I got the Dvorak 8th as a new release. I love the D8th. Almost from the beginning you here “different “ things especially in terms of tempo. Slow sections are played slower;faster sections are played even faster. The changes in tempo are so jarring. I have been suspect Honeck Since then. I try to listen to a recording(streaming etc) before I buy. The sound engineering is exemplary and if you like Honeck’s interpretation than it is definitely worth buying.
I think his Dvorak 8 is wonderful. But so are Kubelik and Kertesz. And the very lyrical late recording by Giulini on Sony, if you don't want too much excitement. Maybe I just love the piece!
I mostly agree with the analysis od DH. As a former frequent visitor and still admiror of the Concertgebouw Orchestra chief conductors as Haitink, Van Beinum and Mengelberg were building up a tradition which now is disappearing. Even guest conductors as Krips, Kondrashin and others made wonderful recordings part of that tradition. But on the other hand I don't agree of DH's opinion of the period instruments movement. yes, I don't want to hear a period instrument performance of Brahms, Verdi etc. But: I immensely prefer a Bach cantata performed by Herreweghe above what - let say - Toscanini, Reiner, Szell or Giulini would have done with that (if they did). The Concertgebouw Orchestra build up great longer term collaborations with former period instrument conductors like Harnoncourt, Herreweghe, Gardiner and Pinnock. With great results. So the truth is not that black-white, but sometmes somewhere in between I think.
You are tilting at windmills. I never said I preferred Bach performed by Reiner et al to a period instrument group, and as you conceded, there's no way to make the comparison since they didn't play that music regularly (if at all). However, I would never say, as you do, that HIP groups must be better without having the opportunity to listen and make the actual comparison. There is a myth going on around here that I dislike period instrument performances of baroque music. That is nonsense. No one who has bothered to look at my work over the years could possibly make that claim. It's all out there, both on this channel and on ClassicsToday.com, in hundreds if not thousands of reviews and videos recommending HIP performances of that music. So please, look before you talk.
I think the old Penguin Guide may have been UK-biased (an update would sell like hot cakes) but not sure about Gramophone or the BBC's Record Review. In the latter case, its recommended recordings (going back 20+ years) are available as a database from the website and I haven't noticed any bias there. All critics have their preferences (and biases) of course.
DH (as always) provides a lively and thought-provoking talk and I am totally addicted to them. I am just an older guy who listens to classical music, but one who reads some music history now and then (with limited comprehension). It seems to me that DH might overemphasize conductors' self regard and underestimate the modern social and economic factors that shape contemporary classical music. I'm surprised that DH doesn't mention Richard Taruskin, who so brilliantly, if monomaniacally, deconstructed the claims of "authentic" performance by the early music performers. He pointed out that the hallmarks of "authentic" performance--emphatic rhythms, fleet tempos, etc--fit a modernist aesthetic to a T. And as a young listener in the 70s and 80s, I was pretty thrilled by a lot of it. As DH says, performers need some kind of way to separate themselves from the pack, and the modern era, especially since 1945, has created an awe-inspiring yet suffocating pack. There is a myriad of magnificent musicians--conductors included--struggling to find careers and audiences, and the model developed quite recently for the top ensembles--basically full-time employment with a regular season from September through May, and a summer season from July through August--was uncommon right up through the early 20th century (my home town orchestra, Cleveland, did not add a summer season until the late 1960s). I read a book that pointed out that, if you lived in Vienna in the early to mid-1800s, you'd be lucky to hear a handful of performances of Beethoven symphonies over your lifetime. As many commentators have pointed out, and as DH so brilliantly tells us in his talks, there are now cascades of very fine recorded performances of almost everything in the classical canon. How do you persuade an audience to come to another Beethoven 5th, or to buy another recording of it? If it's just a lot like Toscanini, or Kleiber, or Szell, great as that is, it's hard to persuade people to pay $60 for a concert (not to mention persuading them to pay for a 25-week subscription concert series). As DH says, the performance tradition is only a few generations old, but concert seasons are annual, and are you really going to keep going back to hear basically the same thing? Records can do that at a fraction of the cost.
Thank you for your thoughtful comments. The answer to your question is "yes." The audience for classical music is not monolithic, and as is always the case in such matters the "hard core" is a minority within a minority. It is a fact that the "meat and potatoes" classics sell best. They always have and always will, particular as done by big name performers, be they orchestras, conductors, or vocal and instrumental soloists. The vast majority of audiences wants to hear famous people play the same old stuff, over and over, because for them it is STILL a sometime thing. They are a well-off, monied population of relatively casual listeners looking for a pleasant evening of dining and "culture," and there's nothing wrong with that. This is what "classical music" means for them. The problem is not persuading audiences to hear the umpteenth performance of Beethoven's Fifth. It is explaining why they need to hear something else--that's the challenge. I assure you, I do not underestimate social and economic factors, but before raising that issue you would do well to define exactly what they are. As for Taruskin, I have mentioned him numerous times, but in the proper place. This wasn't it.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thanks, sir. No criticism about Taruskin, by the way. I'm sure you know his work thoroughly, it just seemed to me to fit with what you had to say about the Early Music movement. By the social and economic forces, I really just mean the huge amount of classical music product that is available, both in concert halls and on recordings, now exacerbated by the internet. Recordings and tickets sell more when there is something "special" about them. One of the great benefits that I have derived from your talks is learning about great performances that I totally ignored because I knew precisely zero about Paul Kletzki and Carl Schuricht (and many more). Like so many other of your fans (and I had never signed into You Tube until I did so to subscribe to your channel), I have started hunting down recordings that I never would have bought without your recommendation. More then ever these days, ensembles need a "brand," promising something out of the ordinary, and I think that imperative is felt by conductors particularly, who for better or worse are the public faces of their ensembles. I was moved in your talk about the Warner box of Szell recordings when you brought up the unique way in which Szell is still alive as part of the Cleveland sound. Some of that is his genuine impact on the corporate identity of that orchestra. But some, I think, is because the Szell sound is what Cleveland is supposed to have. It's what distinguishes them and helps sell the tickets and recordings. I love that orchestra and that sound, but sometimes that need still to be Szell's orchestra must feel like a constraint as well as a strength.
One of my favorite overtures is Glinka's Overture to Ruslan and Ludmilla. In my opinion most conductors take the tempo insanely fast, as though they had a bus to catch. However, a student orchestra at Caenegie Hall had the tempo just right.
It was a driven tempo by many older Soviet conductors, such as Temirkanov too. There's something about the simplicity of the main melody, the overt scalic writing that relies on one heavy syncopation for interest that makes speed quite a friend.
If you've ever been in an orchestra where a conductor came in and only rehearsed "the transitions", you'd know just how good orchestral players are today. They're so good a conductor with no time to rehearse can still put on a concert.
Hm. I watched some highlights of a Mahler performance by Berliner Philharmoniker conducted by this young conductor who had to stand in for an indisposed famous conductor. It was very freaking apparent he looked out of place and the Berliners might as well play the symphony on autopilot without him on the podium
@@stackedactor1 I've been to many rehearsals. There is nothing more embarassing or frustrating than watching a young conductor "educate" the Chicago Symphony. Usually one of the musicians cuts the bullshit. " maestro, you want it faster or slower?"
Yup. I've been lucky enough to attend rehearsals of one of the best orchestras in the land (if not the world), and that's exactly what they've done. Sometimes over and over.
I attend a rehearsal for Brahms 1st. They played a few name- he stopped and ask the kettle drummer to use one hand instead of 2 They played it again. " That's fine". Rehearsal over. The concert was great. The musicians know the music better than the conductor.
We need your thoughts sometime about Gustavo Dudamel, a media darling whose conducting is hysterically bug-eyed, smirky and spasmodic - a cartoon-like vision of what conducting must be. His “The Ninth” with Sinfonica de Galicia sounds fine - due to the excellent regional orchestra keeping a straight face and giving the piece its due - but it’s visually one of the greatest pieces of unintentional comedy on RUclips.
someone im sure said the same thing 150 years ago about some young conductor. they were getting their kicks back then just the same. ill admit, he is pretty funny to watch. But i doubt hes as much of a clown as you think. i say this with respect btw. i used to watch a performance of Symphonie Fantastique that i loved. I thought he was cool. I can see how he might seem clownish to some. But that guy Essa Pekka? No, i cant watch him. I guess im not a huge fan of Sibelius. I like Berlioz way more. i dont know, we like what we like i guess.
I became very obsessed with conductors in college when I read The Maestro Myth and started collecting records. I still have some pretty unimpeachable heros, but I have soured somewhat generally on the topic over the years. Both on stage and from the audience I've felt a long drought of any new heros from the podium. This gives me some sympathy with the historical recording crowd, despite the superior playing and sound available now. It is especially disappointing when a new potentially great conductor changes like this. Maybe an update to your "reliable artist" list is in order... anyway, really enjoyed hearing your thoughts on this topic.
There's a German pianist here in RUclips playing Beethoven sonatas at half speed. He seems to explain stuff well, but after the third video it becomes obvious he can't be right. It gets ridiculous by the fifth video.
Oh, you mean Mr. Double-Beat, "The Authentic [sic] Sound"? He (Wim Winters) is a Flemish organist and lives in Belgium. I've occasionally left him heckling comments, which he shadow-bans but does not usually delete.
I do conduct myself (amateur ensembles) and quite agree with you. There is an enormous amount of b.s. involved in conducting. Most of what many conductors do on the podium is superfluous and has no positive impact whatsoever on the performance. I do pity orchestral musicians who have to endure incompetent showboaters who then take all the credit. The ignorance of many concertgoers is partly to blame. So is the not-so-invisible hand of the market .
Interesting about Honeck... What do you think about rescoring Beethoven? One example: there is a traditional "insert" given to the trumpets in the coda of the 1st mvt. of the Eroica. It gives the trumpets the full statement of the melody in octaves, fortissimo. This does not exist in the score, yet Honeck has the trumpets play the inserted parts. For someone supposedly concerned about authenticity, it is an odd choice... One I agree with completely, but it shows a certain inconsistency... and the fallacy of those who claim to have special insight.
There is no doubt in my mind that it is correct to allow the trumpets to complete the tune. Trumpets in Beethoven's day couldn't do it, and evidently he didn't care, but his intention is obvious and the failure to honor that intention is unmusical and an excellent example of false historicism.
Sometimes it feels like “authentic” conductors are conducting autopsies rather than performances... The performance of a piece of music is a living thing.
All the old conductors 'helped' with orchestration. Missa Solemnis is a perfect example. In the fugues the natural horns and trumpets would play a theme and have to drop out for certain notes not playable in that time. A modern valve instrument can play all the notes and it is schoolmasterish not to insert them.
Great overview. I agree in regards to Cobra's interpretation of the 9th symphony. I heard it myself and I HATED it!!!!! I wanted to just fall asleep!!! I can't comprehend what gives some people the right to do that to music. Though I have to say... despite your opinion of Robert Shaw, :-) I find his Beethoven 9th to be my absolute favorite; tempo, orchestra, and chorus! :-) I saw a live video concert from ASO with his performance of the work from 1986 and it was flawless. :-)
This was one of your more interesting rants, eliciting two comments from me. First, I wonder whether, and how far, economic considerations are at play in prompting conductors to "behave badly" in the way you have described? I'm thinking that, at least for the recording industry, "doing it differently" justifies making more recordings of standard repertoire that we really don't need, but which bring handsome royalties to aspiring conductors. Norrington, for instance, would probably not have risen to the status of a "general purpose" orchestral conductor of standard repertoire, and would scarcely have merited attention among record collectors, if he had adopted tried and true interpretive priorities. And so he adopted his idiosyncratic manner, based on putative "historically informed" practices, and that created something of a sensation that lasted long enough to launch his career. On the other hand, and this is my second point, period instrument practices work well enough, and at times can be revelatory, in "early music" up to, say, 1750, and at least in that repertoire there is some justification, beyond "novelty value" for the "historically informed" approach championed by folks like Roger Norrington.
Dear Dave, these are troublesome times, with no respect for traditions. Tends overwrite traditions. Even institutional traditions are trying to be “recreated”. The demolishing of traditions prepare the landscape for dilettantes and megalomaniacs to establish their grounds and fortresses with the help of an idiotic corporate system which under the guise of agencies and PR companies apply commercial practices to arts. This is an ambiguity. Art is not a product, and cannot be commercialized. Art is essence, artworks are tokens thereof. Each is unique and unrepeatable. Each instantiation of a musical work (independently from its practical qualities) is unique, unrepeatable. How can a stupid robotic corporate system commercialize works of art which cannot be produced on production lines. That which can be “produced” can only be the work of artisans, and cannot be an artists’ creative output. Realizing this handicap artists are pushed (forced) to become unique in a quantitative way because quality cannot be the only attribute of a potentially commercial item. In these cases the artistic qualities of a person and the creative output of this person lack the conditions for commercialization. So, they achieve it through quantitative, as you say “absurd” “grotesque” abominations which do not belong to that what is to be done; what artists should be doing is to be aware of traditions, and take that same path as their predecessors and become the tradition of future generations. Tradition does not originate from a moment, from a time span, decade or a person or persons, nor is it a stylistic/practical mannerism. It derives from a complex understanding of many artists’, writers’, philosophers’ ideas, and works and belongs to the even bigger cultural and historical Picture. The refusal of tradition is the refusal of history, refusal of ancestors. It is refusing parents, families, schools, and one’s own history of existence. A denial of one’s self. What will remain then? Waiting eagerly to hear your ideas and opinions. (On a side note, I was the artistic assistant of Abbado for three years 2011-2013. I know exactly what you mean in your video about him, I could say so many things, which would bring his artistic output under a different light. You put everything very gently and kindly. Thank you.)
"If it sounds like trash, it probably is" lol! Do audiences today have any real musical standards or are they victims of the PR and convince themselves that they're experiencing something extraordinary? I think that it would be amusing to teleport some of today's conductors to places like the old La Scala where they weren't shy about letting someone know what they actually thought of them 😀
David, do you listen to Wim Winters and his Authentic Sound youtube channel? He talks quite a bit about the single vs double beat metronome and I find his argument compelling at times. Would be curious to hear your thoughts on that given your comments in this video about Beethoven metronome markings. Stellar video as always - thank you for these.
I wonder whether another factor might be shifting tastes: a preference for a lean, thin sound, with metronomic rhythms; and sudden quick, explosive accents; extreme dramatic contrasts, extremely fast or extremely slow; suddenly loud, then dramatically soft; a preference for brevity over length. To me, much of this sounds like a shift in taste, post-Stravinsky, needlessly justified by theories or historiography. So many of the recent recordings of Beethoven symphonies pretty much sound the same - fast, clean, motoric, with super lean sonorities, exaggerated dynamics, sonic effects. These approaches can at first sound new and exciting, but I've found them mostly dull, but that is, of course, my own taste.
I remember Taruskin saying that about the early music movement, that the aesthetic was more consistent with the mood of high modernist neo-classicism than with any imaginary historical taste. Maybe Norrington’s aesthetic is more informed by Le corbusier or Scandinavian furniture than any dubious musicological authority
@@lucapostorino1963 in the US there are some 900 pro or semi- pro orchestras. Are there even 10 great conductors, or even 100 good ones. The vast majority are average to awful.
@@jefolson6989 But it's not really their fault for being awful, it's just what the system has become. It's perverse to blame the conductors for not being able to take advantage of what David points out, that back in the day they had way more rehearsal time to cultivate their own sound. Make everything jet-set and thoroughly capitalist, then ridicule conductors for failing to match their predecessors? It's akin to blaming Gen-Z for their addiction to social media invented by Boomers. Tragic situation, but look to the cause rather than the effect. "So many terrible conductors," well yeah. Stop sneering and figure out how to change it.
@@bdc1117 I blame the audiences. I have seen many standing ovations for mediocre performances. Seems "loud" is the most important quality in those. I'm pretty sure I could conduct the Brahms 1st, Beethoven Eroica and a few more, as long as its a great orchestra. If there were more great conductors and few great orchestras it would not improve the overall quality of performance. Orchestras don't really need a conductor, but a conductor needs an orchestra.
@@jefolson6989 Pointless to blame audiences. Why expect them to know a great performance from a mediocre one? And if they think it's great, you can't take that away from them. If orchestras don't need conductors at all, why complain that there aren't more great conductors? I think the "greatest" conductors tend to be overrated, but chemistry between a great orchestra and a musical leader can still happen and can't be replicated by an orchestra alone. Someone has to direct the proceedings. Even if it were all worked out in rehearsal without a conductor, you'd still need leadership, and the results are going to vary according to whether or not the same musical criteria are being fulfilled.
Every conductor, listener, and even critics could really benefit from reading Erich Leinsdorf's excellent book "The Composer's Advocate". I realize I collect more older recordings than new, and I think it's because those old-timers just let the music play itself - they certainly knew how to phrase, balance and inject adrenalin, but they didn't micromanage. Monteux, Reiner, Munch, Paray, Dorati, Walter...we could sure use conductors like them today. Modern "star" conductors I find revolting. The lesser-known, quieter bunch (Slatkin, Litton, Jarvi, yes - Kuchar, and others) seem much more interested in presenting music honestly and hew to what's on the page - I like that.
I am curious about your thoughts on Christian Thielemann? I really enjoy his performance of Brahms’ German Requiem as well as most of the Beethoven symphonies. However, his more recent Schumann and Bruckner cycles are nothing to write home about. Do you think Thielemann has been impacted by the PR machine, or is he simply not a strong enough of a conductor to get his arms around Schumann’s and Bruckner’s symphonies, which require intelligent interpretation and do not work well on autopilot?
@@DavesClassicalGuide I quite agree. I have always found him very ponderous and unimaginative. How does someone that uninspiring get to conduct the VPO? (Ditto Simon Rattle ) As I understand it the VPO is self governing and a committee consisting mainly of its musicians decides who gets to conduct.
Ps: what is your opinion of Guergiev? Being more far more interested in orchestral music than in opera I can only go by the few symphonic concerts I have watched on RUclips. So far I have can't say I have been impressed. (His Brahms 3 with the Munich Philharmonic is one of the worst I have come across.)
I wonder, David, how soloists fit in to this pattern or whether they have the potential to disrupt it. When it comes to a performance (say Rachmaninov’s second piano concerto), to what degree does the pianist work out the overall aesthetic with a conductor - such as the tempo of those opening, ominous chords in the Rach 2? Something like that has the power to set out the rest of the movement - so a soloist with artistic integrity could presumably speak truth to power in such a case. I genuinely don’t know the answer, as I’m not someone who knows that workings of an orchestra in rehearsal. It could be that soloists have fallen into some of the pitfalls that you’ve mentioned of some conductors, but to my ear that doesn’t seem to be as prevalent a pattern.
I think it depends on the dynamics between the two and their relative positions in the musical hierarchy. I know some soloists who take charge and the conductor is merely along for the ride, and others who meekly acquiesce to whatever the conductor demands. There is no standard.
Dear David, thank you for your reflexion, I think you hit some great points that might apply to the whole art/entertainment industry. I just would like to add something from my far shorter experience with classical recordings. Some years ago, I had never been able to connect with Bach choral works (for instance, Richter doing Matthew's Passion), and I thought it just wasn't for me or I wasn't sensitive enough. Then I purchased by chance the Gardiner recording, not even knowing about the whole period-movement thing. The music really got to me then for the first time, and eventually led me to be a fan of Bach choral music (and I love Richter's recording now!). My point is that, even if the period movement has been kidnapped by the industry's neurosis and pettiness, it really depends on where the musical intention comes from: if you are doing it for the sake of a theory or a trend, or if you are doing it because you feel that the music still has room for different approaches that will make it beautiful. The great thing about this, I believe, is that when it's done with real artistic interest and love for the music, the different approaches show how the piece is so good that it works in many different ways (today I wouldn't like to be without my Richter or my Gardiner, or my Herreweghe or my Klemperer!). Thank you for all your videos and articles, I keep learning a lot and having so much fun (and spending money, Oh God). Love from Argentina.
Agreed. Perhaps I have the wrong end of the stick, but if it hadn’t been for those dusty dreary academics in Leipzig and elsewhere, we wouldn’t have had such marvelous recordings as McCreesh’s “ A Venetian Coronation”or be listening to previously unknown works by Purcell, Monteverdi, Gabrieli and Striggio. And the only Handel we’d have would be The Messiah , Water Music and Fireworks, lush and thick with velvety vibrato from Ormandy, unbearable to me now…🙄🙄🙄
Very thought provoking 'mumblings' - I was particularly taken by two of your observations. First, the question of how much time a conductor has to develop a perspective or performance style. Reading about past conductors, it seems to me that in the past conductors had the time to master their craft by working for some time with a less well-known ensemble away from a wider audience before gaining acclaim with one of the 'big' orchestras. To what extent is that true today? In addition, what conductor today is likely to devote 20-30 years to a single orchestra in the manner of a Szell or Karajan? Second, with regard to the 'cult of personality' of many contemporary conductors. From what I have read- and I acknowledge that I lack your erudition- such a phenomenon is not new, although we may be reaching new depths at the moment. I am thinking, for example, of Toscanini (a conductor I generally admire), who in his lifetime was referred to as the Maestro as if no one else approached his degree of mastery over the classical repertoire.
Of course there have always been such "personality cults," but those were few and far between, whereas today they are the PR norm from the very start of a career, and not the natural result of a lifetime of steady work and general acclaim.
The best way for new conductors to create new sounds is to work with new composers. Lots of great works from people like Christopher Rouse and Leshnoff. It's very easy to create new and expressive musical instruments in the 21th century. Why stick with wood? Messiaen was using electronic instruments back in the 1940s.
A peripheral aspect to this, for me at least, is the promotion of a conductor's image on the cover of recordings. It's almost as if the conductor is more important than the composer. Oh, wait - he is (at least for the PR people). It's one reason I actively avoid a lot of Karajan recordings.
Dear David, general comments: I've loved music long enough to have wasted all of my money as a kid on terrible bootlegs and a few glorious ones but all of my money went into music collecting. I never took any formal classes on music theory or history. You are reigniting my passion and I'm obviously not alone. I listen to you regularly. You have packed lifetimes of music appreciation into these videos and you are creating an educational legacy that will endure. Great taste is the product of breadth and depth of exposure. With the inestimable volume of recorded music now available the only way to navigate everything is with high standards and strong opinions. People simply do not have the time to figure it out on their own. But with these finely tuned lectures you are condensing and disseminating not just the greatest recordings but also a framework and methodology for understanding music through the generosity of your wisdom, experience, objectivity and sensitivity. You've already brought me so much fulfillment, knowledge and joy...and laughter. You are a lot funnier than you know. In every video there's at least one off cuff line you casually pull out that has me in tears. I'm hooked. Also and perhaps most importantly you are an excellent communicator of culture and art. Such people are a scarce commodity. Your talks are almost conversational it's uncanny. It feels like you are just talking directly to me. One of the reasons I didn't study art in college was that the professors had less passion than I did and put me to sleep. I'll stop myself I just wanted to reinforce what others have said far more articulately. This is just from my heart without proper editing so I apologize. Sincere Thanks.
I'm very touched, truly. Thank you for making this worthwhile for me.
I would encourage all young musicians, especially conductors, to listen to this excellent, factual and realistic presentation by David Hurwitz. A respect and awareness of tradition need not obliterate one's individuality or originality.
Well said, maestro! I’m a great admirer of your work and was listening to your Prokofiev cycle just yesterday.
Again you raised an issue which made me aware of one of those awkward trends of this time.
Substitute Smetana for Prokofiev and Mr. Madorsky’s comment is word-for-word what I would have written. Maestro Kuchar is one of those conductors, like Wit and Bakels, who will ALWAYS deliver a performance I know that I will want to hear. Thank you, Maestro!
Maestro. Thank you for your thoughtful comment and for Dave’s incredibly informative talk. Maestro. I have many of your recordings. Special shout to you on your EXCELLENT naxos Creston and Kalinnikov symphony recordings. Gorgeous. In fact I am going to listen to the Creston right now. Bravo!
Maestro, your Nielsen recordings was a revelation 🙏🏻
This is the best of your videos I have watched, Mr. Hurwitz, and also the best one on musical performance practice that this amateur has ever watched. Back in the 80s, when I first "got into" classical music, I was seduced by the HIP crowd, and only in the last few years-thanks in large part to your writings-did I extricate myself from this cult. Thank you, sir!
A great talk summarizing a lot of key problems in contemporary performance. Too many conductors try too hard to stand out, with predictable results. I generally love Stokowski’s sometime bizarre interventions, but they are not to be imitated by others. As music education programs exploded in the latter half of the 20th-century, heterogeneity of sound set in and most orchestras tend to sound the same. So conductors have to make odder and odder choices to try to create a new sound, rather than an interchangeable one. With so many young conductors also being chugged out through music programs and competitions, the pressure to stand out in a crowd is fierce.
There’s no tidy solution to this problem other than to reward the best performances with our hard-earned currency.
Full-heartedly agree on the last statement. Just being yourself (that is, if you are a somebody) is often enough to stand out. Just experience the music and SHOW how much it means to you... even the well-trodden repertoire may bloom in new fragrant blossoms.
Point in case, just last Christmas watched Mirga Grazinyte's BBC performance with Birmingham. B's Leonore III overture, of all of 'em. And it struck me as wide-eyed inspired and fresh. The girl made her mark, even as she seemed not to conduct but rather be swept along by the tide at some points. Not to mention there was real trust in her orchestra, instead of micro-managing an ultimately chrestomatic score. The new generation has some promise, let's hope the industry does not get into their heads.
I discovered Mr Hurwitz’s videos on RUclips last week & I am a Hurwitz Groupie now. Bravo!
I rely on you to keep me up-to-date on the music world and how to find and buy the best of classical music. Keep up the good work! diane lewis
Great chat and food for thought. Keep on talking so we can keep on listening.
I am pleased this was prompted by you tube today as I really think it is one of your best videos. Very truthful comments about performance practice and the legitimacy of some of those practices. Efforts at genuine research and trying to reflect the results in performance are surely to be appreciated, but there is a tendancy to latch on to one particular aspect , like a fetish, and overplay and sell that idea- for example the non vibrant , colourless tone that was favoured by certain in the early and baroque music world some years ago now.
Your conductor story is not a surprise - said conductor mistaking the job of a music critic with that of a publicist. Alongside dedicated , polite and talented conductors there have no doubt always been a few who see themselves as more important than the music they perform or the musicians they work with. Times are changing and such people are now considered a liability to potential employers.
Very informative and insightful, and also a very well organized presentation. The vast majority of us lack access to the mysterious inner-world of symphonic music, and those who produce it, so it is very helpful to hear from someone who has had that kind of access.
When I was a conducting student, I once attended a concert of the Dresden Staatskapelle with Sawallisch, and one of my friends made, in my opinion, the best compliment on can make about a conductor. He told me: "I forgot Sawallisch was there, I was so lost in the beauty of the music". My introvert side, and my disgust of podium antics make me wonder if it wouldn't be better to put a screen to hide the conductor. I love when the audience tell me how beautiful the piece was after the concert, I am rather disappointed when the audience talks about my gestures. Of course, it would have been a pity to hide Bernstein's superb conducting, but there aren't a lot of Bernstein around, and way too many ersatz. Tuning down the ego of the man on the podium and reminding him that he's there to serve the composer is essential. So rather than this radical (and probably silly) idea of hiding the conductor, let's teach conducting students humility toward the score. Your comments, dear Dave, are, as always, spot on!
Hi Dave- I listened to the Cobra Beethoven 9- is it supposed to be a joke? couldn't believe what I was hearing. Now you're right about that one- a conductor 'behaving badly'.
Well said...BRAVO!
Now we need to know who that young, cocky conductor was🤣
Hi Dave. You might like this story. Penderecki was shouting at the organist at the morning rehearsal of his St Luke Passion with the BBCSO in the Royal Albert Hall for the Proms. A brave young man percussionist loundly said "Don't shout". Penderecki stopped shouting.
In my personal experience, Penderecki was a very kind and gentle soul, but with a sort of steely strength that surfaced now and then. I can imagine he would have been embarrassed for shouting.
A very good friend of mine was principal oboe of a very well known orchestra. According to him most orchestral musicians acknowledge the need for a conductor but hold very few of them in esteem. There are sycophants in every orchestra who will have their own agenda for fawning over certain conductors, but most orchestral musicians view conductors with a certain degree of scepticism!
Exactly!
Sir, I’m new to your channel and have been watching your content all weekend, nothing else. I’ve learned a lot and I’ve laughed a lot. I agree with you, and I’m a HIP fan. Such a wonderful channel, thank you.
Thanks and welcome!
As a teacher of mine liked to say, “Be right, not righteous.”
@@stephensitarski617 I love that quote, though I'd slightly modify it to "Be right, but not self-righteous."
Spot on. Thank you for this video, David.
Thank you for this brief, focused, pointed, and down to earth opinion. "If it sounds like trash... it probably is." Yes! And orchestras today are very good - some of them were pretty good in years gone by as well - I remember Sir Thomas (Beecham) saying somewhere that the orchestras usually know their piece better than the young conductor come to teach them how to play it...
Great video, David. I'd be interested in your views on Fritz Reiner, especially in his Chicago years. Chicago was/is a world-class ensemble. How much did Reiner have to do with their excellence during his tenure there? I listen to the music they made with him and I'm always amazed at the razor-sharp precision of the music making. Reiner also had a way of whipping up a palpable sense of atmosphere in his recordings. Although I am aware of his reputation as a task master, the music is so thrilling that it makes me wonder how much the orchestra was improved by Reiner's strictness. I don't know if this is worthy of an entire video, but your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
Ideologies obviously have taken over big parts of the world. Yet before your explaining the influence of period instrument academics on musicians nowadays I wasn't aware of this ideological deformation in classical music.
On a slight tangent, I recall Richard Taruskin doing a lecture at Amherst College years ago in which he quoted Boris Berman citing Milhaud's comments about Prokofiev playing his own works in a metrically regular manner. Then, Taruskin played Berman's perfectly metronomic rendition of the Gavotte, Op. 32, No. 3 -- followed by Prokofiev's own very flexible (and much more interesting) recording of the same piece. What are we supposed to believe, some general second hand comment, or our ears? And which way makes more musical sense? Jeesh! Musicality beats concept every time. Thanks for the great talk.
No argument, sir, but I would add a couple more logs to the fire:
For me, one of the big changes in conducting occurred with the advent of recordings. Prior, a conductor would have to learn a piece of music through studying the score. And I think that's what differentiated interpretations. Someone would have to learn the music from study and reflection, especially with pieces that weren't a regular part of the repertoire. But from the 40's/50's on, all it takes is listening to different recordings to create a 'Cliff Notes' for a particular piece and a conductor is free to take bits and pieces from here and there to create 'their' version.
The other is modern travel where a conductor can be anywhere in the world with a day's travel. Before the 1960's/70's this just wasn't possible so even when there were 'guest' conductors, they tended to have residencies where they'd have time to establish a working relationship with an orchestra. Today (from what I understand as a non-performer) it's jet in, have a couple rehearsals, and off to the races. Then jet out and repeat somewhere else.
The irony is that while both of these factors have contributed to bringing music to the masses, they've undercut long established routines for cultivating musicianship.
I thought this too but didn't word it nearly as well as you in my head. Two of the leading reasons for why accessibility of music is often coupled with degeneration.
@jamiehaenisch8190 easy access seems to degenerates
just about everything. If its easy to get, its not appreciated. Before recordings, traveling hundred of miles to hear Beethovens 9th, and never having the chance again, made for an unforgettable memory. Now that we all have 10 versions . I cant decide which one to hear so I dont listen to any of them. My father went AWOL and hitchiked to Vienna for a performance of Rosenkavelier. ( didnt get caught). No one has to do that now, but no one has that passion either. The good with the bad. And there is no going back. Its made charlatan conductors more plentiful too. They can memorize recordings and get along pretty well without studying the score. The orchestra knows but not the majority of the public, who also barely scratch the surface. If the conductor gives them the " bright shiny object" and some noisy fortissimi , they enthusiatically give standing ovations to very mediocre performances. Astute observation and something that isnt discussed much. The emperor has no clothes.
This is a spot-on analysis.
I think one of the problem is that there are already so many great recordings of standard works that the conductors feel pressured to bring out something new, something different and ’fresh’. When it becomes too forced and the actual music is forgotten, the end result can be a mess.
Yep.
Kind of like a movie remake, ie Music Man. Why bother?
Imagine a time when one was lucky to hear ,say, Beethovens 9th, once in ones lifetime, and many would walk a hundred miles to do so. When it was over, it was gone. Only what you could remember as a souvenir. Records became the permanent storage, and the daily delivery system. Since youtube, its all too easy. Its killing the live experience I'm afraid.
Pierre Monteux, when asked how he approached the interpretation of music: “I don’t interpret. I just play the music”.
Statements like that are annoying. Everyone interprets, there's no such thing as objectively "playing what's in the score." Toscanini used to cultivate the same image and it was always b.s.
@@bdc1117 I agree. I think the issue is that "interperetation" has these days become synonymous with misinterperetation--that is, deliberate "disobedience" to the score and the composers's intent. So in saying "I will play it the composer's way" or "I don't interperet," I think musicians are less claiming to be directly, perfectly channeling the spirit of the composer and more stating that they try to obey the composer's intent as closely as possible in their interperetations rather than deliberately overreaching.
Monteaux took Beethoven’s 7th 3rd mvmt trio way too slowly for it to be anything but an interpretation (putting aside for a moment that anything is an interpretation). It was lovely, though.
Please do a video on Line guys vs chord guys. I kept hearing about it from you and read Distlers article on it. I would like to learn more.
Your talk has made me wonder if the whole project of recording the classical canon has reached something of an endpoint. Stereo emerged in the 1950s and digital recording in the 1980s, and with each innovation there was an actual reason to re-record the main repertoire pieces. But there are now so many great performances with such great sonics, it is difficult to see in many cases what a new artist can contribute. BTW, I listened to the Maximianno Cobra Beethoven 9th and was pretty shocked. I readjusted the speed to 1.75x on RUclips and it sounded vaguely normal, but looked quite weird.
Nah. There's always room for another great recording. Excellence speaks for itself.
The first performance of Beethoven 7 had 4 first and 4 second vls and to top it off only 2 horns in A playing for that time almost impossible parts. The first of number 9 needed a piano to cover missing instruments. This is all historically documented. Toscanini was born just a few yrs after Rossini‘s death. Now I was born in 1951 and had the opportunity to know a lot of old BSO players. They carried on the traditions of the 19th Century. Just listen to the first BSO RCA recordings with Karl Muck, around 1912. From the historical practice there are things we can learn when we avoid believing the dogmatic bullshit of Prof Dr Otto Holzkopf from the Stiftung Keineahnung.
I just wanted to say I know nothing about classical music or anything other than reggae and dancehall but I like the detail of this it's very interesting I've been listening to your vids for hours
Thank you!
A fantastic video. I've listened to it three times.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Excellent talk David and very true. An extra thing in the Netherlands, where I live, is that the managers of the orchestra's are convinced that in order to attract new and young audiences to the concert hall, conductors must absolutely be hunks. Having a dashing appearance is necessary. The Netherlands Opera new conductor Lorenzo Viotti is only talked about because he is so handsome and presents himself half naked on his Instagram account. It's all PR and it's killing the value and dignity of the profession. It's all about stunts.
And then there’s Segerstam. Who am I kidding, I love the guy.
Very true, he did some wonderful recordings back in the days. He's generally underestimated, in my point of view. But he recently has become one of those langsamer conductors who slow down the tempo to the point music stops being cohesive.
@@aatim2308 Indeed. Listen to any of his soggy performances in the Naxos Beethoven complete edition.
I really looked forward zo this video, and the fact you mentioned Cobra is even funnier. I really wait to detailed survey on his strange interprertations. A fan from Slovakia
Excellent contribution, David. Thank you. I think that all what you describe fits fit the spririt of this time: revolting against legacy, against any tradition, coupled with the marketing need for "differentiation"
“There is nothing so tragic in science as the slaying of a beautiful theory
by an ugly fact.”--Thomas Huxley Also in music?
That statement is not nearly as profound as Huxley wanted it to be. In fact, it's silly.
I would say it's a true statement, but it doesn't apply to music. And I'm not sure Mr Hurwitz is qualified to adjudicate on the philosophy of science.
Hey Dave! Great video, as usual. I have to say, I found that last story on the 'hot-shot' conductor to be really shocking. I can only guess who it might have been, but it just goes to show, do they really care about the music? I am a regular concert-going student and have come across more upsetting experiences at the opera house than in the concert hall, but maybe that's a whole other topic... I used to live in Spain before moving to do my master's and whenever some famous orchestra came along for a tour, they usually (not always) gave under-rehearsed and run-of-the-mill performances . But then a relatively minor orchestra would come along and blow your socks off.
Sure, because they had something to prove...
@13:54 Maximianno
Cobra
copy and paste:
(334) BEETHOVEN Symphony No 9 - Maximianno Cobra - All four movements - HD VIDEO
Apparently RUclips no longer allows the posting of direct links to videos in the comments section, so you need to copy and paste.
The scherzo sounds like a waltz--the fact that anyone was delusional enough to actually think this was what Beethoven intended is absolutely glorious. We must treasure this recording at all costs.
Don't forget the nine minute documentary:
Documentary: An Introduction to Beethoven's Ninth Symphony - Directed and narrated by Maximianno Cobra
Now imagine how this would sound on period instruments lol. These tempi on gut strings and with period bows would be quite the experience!
This is spot on. Would much rather listen to the conductors of the past than the gimmicky, superficial effects of today. One particular irritating trait I notice today in the concert hall is string phrasing that deliberately starts softer at the start of the phrase, gets louder in the middle and then tails off at the end of the phrase. Like a repeated hairpin but without it being written into the score.
I watched this again after seeing Tar, would you consider doing a video on the film/ how it captures or doesn’t capture the industry?
Absolutely not!
@@DavesClassicalGuide haha! not a fan of the film?
@@gabrielvalle5182 He doesn't like watching movies :)
Here on RUclips, the bonkers notion that Beethoven has to be played twice as slow has spawned a borderline cult. On social media, it's actually HIP folks who point out how shoddy the theory is, to their credit.
Wim is on a wind up.
@@fearworks7249 I used to get videos by that Wim moron in my RUclips feed all the time. I had to thumbs down a whole ton of his horsecrap to make it go away.
He is EXACTLY what is wrong with music today. The German's have a great word for guys like him - Klugscheisser. The funny thing is he's just bringing the tempo lunacy full circle.
@@marknewkirk4322 That guy drives me up the wall! Even the way he talks seems to encapsulate how tendentious he is. And his pianism is crap! He's an amateur (nothing wrong with that) and so he can't even begin to make a reasonable case with his own performances. He is most insane when he argues that Chopin's ETUDES are to be played at least half as slow as a professional virtuoso can play them! It all seems so self-serving. It allows him to record himself playing the entire Hammerklavier sonata and present it as artistically valid. I'm an amateur pianist who similarly loves to tackle pieces far, far beyond my ability--but I keep it to myself. I don't even subject friends to it.
Having played Schumann 3 Beethoven 4 ( that's a win for Beethoven) with Norrington over 30 years ago, I have never been able to come up with the words to describe the experience. " "Hopeless fraud" works. Thanks.
I love this!~
Would love to hear you comment Celibidache and his epiphenomology.
It's bullshit. Need we say more?
Very interesting observations. Did you write about what that young conductor you met said?! Can we find the piece?!
No comment!
@@DavesClassicalGuide Pwease??!? :)
@@greatmomentsofopera7170 GD?
I’m loving your videos.
I am so seriously considering becoming an insider to classics today, if for no other reason, so I can find out your top 10 Giulini recordings.
But, I am deeply saddened that you had a bad experience with Manfred Honeck. I have grown to absolutely love what he’s doing in Pittsburgh, based on what I’m hearing live, and based on his Bruckner 9 and Shostakovich 5.
But I’ve also grown to love and respect you and your videos. So calling out Honeck deeply troubles me.
You are absolutely right about one thing for sure, and that is the pressure on these conductors to distinguish themselves from the rest of the pack is very real. And a lot of that is because we are inundated with massive numbers of recordings. What makes one recording of Mahler 9 stand out from the myriad of others?
So it’s not just HIP pressure. It’s because there are so many many recordings.
Thanks for what you do.
Please consider forgiving Honeck.
For some reason, I want you to like and respect him, unless he really has gone over the deep end. J
It's not a question of forgivenes. There's nothing personal here. When he does great work I'll say so, as I often have (check out the reviews on classicstoday.com--they are free).
I saw a new young conductor named Tianyi Lu w/ the LA Phil. Everything straight, direct. What made her special was her uncontained enthusiasm. There was almost always a huge smile on her face. No histrionics like Bernstein, but just encouragement of the orchestra and look of excitement. Hope she gets a permanent post at LA.
Dear David, may I suggest a fourth point?
Many of today's conductors never studied composition! So they are not able to "hear" a score in their brain, but only to hear it from recordings.
I think many musicians would be surprised to hear from you that they are unable to hear a score in their head.
There are something like 900 professional or semi- professional orchestras in the US. Are there 900 great, or even very good, conductors? There are perhaps 20 in the world we talk about, and their greatness is up for debate. So, the vast majority of conductors are between incompetent and mediocre. The public is about as sophisticated as its going to get. The future looks bleak. Grateful for my records and RUclips!
@@jefolson6989 Would you include Dudamel in the 20? Just asked cause i like him a lot. I saw a video on youtube years ago of the march to the scaffold and it was great.
@@buschovski1 from what little I've heard and reports of trusted friends, definately YES. But I have a hard time naming a full 20 who are presently active. Make your own list, its not as easy as you would think! If you forget fame and PR, and you use the same criteria you would with Szell, Boehm, Klemperer, let alone Bernstein and Karajan, Abbado , Tennstedt, Solti even Levine, then whats left is Muti....
Stuck already. Lucky I began going to concerts when the a few greats from the 40,50,60s were still active.
Listening to Maximiano Cobra Beethoven 9th now. Oh my god! I can't last through a minute of it!
interminable is the word to describe it. I could only sample the beginning of each movement and the 'prestissimo', which is a normal allegro. The scherzo is especially dire. Well played though, but will need Gardiner for detox.
I am listening to the Beethoven 6. What is he doing??
Yes, yes, yes! Spot on, as so often.
Truly thank you, Dave! I have rather often left concerts disappointed, and you manage somehow to dress the issue in words. That should have been done a long time ago, because it is a development that´s not healthy for the music world. Though I don´t quite share your view on period instruments (I actually think they have given us a lot of interesting input, even if some of the experts also in that field have gone nuts), I think that you succeed in pointing out some major features behind this trend. Maybe one could add that we in all areas live in a tradition-lacking time, and classical music is in no way immune to that. But what I think makes this possible more than anything is that a large proportion of the concertgoers WANT to be deceived and seduced - the more speculative, the more appreciated. Or maybe we just sit a box of besserwissers who look down of those who want the show. But if that´s so, I think classical music have a sad future, living on just by being a show think.
Re: period instruments, I agree with you and have never said otherwise. I don't understand why anyone things I dislike period instruments when I am careful to distinguish the good stuff from the insanity.
I think Harnoncourt, especially with his Beethoven COE and Schubert RCO cycles gave good examples of innovation without loosing touch with tradition.
Harnoncourt always had a very keen desire to do just that.
@@DavesClassicalGuide
He deserved, in my opinion, a mention in your videos on B&S cycles!
I would say that Harnoncourt is a negative example. He does best in music he thinks is not very important. If it's "Important", he tends to distort the music very self-consciously in order to make his points about it.
Harnoncourt had a disassociation with modern life, I found. He would wring his hands and shout 'Dirty Noises' for any electronic external sound, be it air-conditioning or a public announcement system in the lobby during a rehearsal. It always reminded me of the wicked witch: 'I'm melting'. Having said that he had clear ideas to convey, it just wasn't my taste.@@DavesClassicalGuide
Hello Dave,
I have been lwatching your channel for some time now and I find it excellent. It seems to me it would be a great idea to take all of your introductory comments and put them into a book!!
It probably would be worth the time to do it and I am sure it would be sold out pretty fast.
Your ideas are realy great - I would by it immediately. Please, think about it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Kudos, Dave... Reaching to that very comprehensive and complete conclusion has obviously taken a larger part of your life. I think you hit the nail spot on in every way, especially the story about the interview is just great... But perhaps the public is also partially to blame for the whole persona-cult? I feel, at least in Europe, it is... I've heard concertgoers say some pretty questionable stuff as well. Or is that just part of the same vicious circle?
Andris Nelsons is the mysterious conductor??
When you called Cobra demented I thought, hmmm, bit harsh, then I found the video 😐 🦗 ))) ))) ))). He conducts like a drunk trying to hail a cab!
Thanks as always, David. While I don't remember where I saw the quote, I recall Pierre Boulez asking rhetorically (I'm paraphrasing, but I think accurately) "Why bother recording something if you aren't contributing anything new?" I must say, as a listener and a rank musical amateur I don't get the "Doing something new, for newness' sake", but I suppose that from the standpoint of a conductor I can understand the differentiating urge. I happen to be a Richard Strauss fan, and in addition to versions of, say, "Also Sprach Zarathustra" that I acquired in my teen years some (okay, many) decades ago, I've acquired others here and there, and accumulated still others in the process of buying box sets of this or that conductor/orchestra. I just went back and began counting; fourteen iterations, at which point I became bored, and stopped. Truth to tell, I could probably have been happy for a lifetime with just Karajan/Vienna and Ormandy/Philadelphia, my initial encounters. Were I in the conducting biz, I might feel impelled to put my own stamp on an important piece of the repertoire, but what could I really expect to add at this juncture that wasn't in some way contrived or mannered? I purchase some stuff (e.g. Chailly/Lucerne) out of curiosity as to how the most recent enhancements in sound and engineering might alter my listening experience, but I don't really anticipate hearing any interpretive breakthroughs. Not ones that I'll welcome, anyway. Just some quick thoughts; thanks again for these gifts of your time and knowledge.
That is just the problem. Modern conductors don't just have to impress and entertain an audience, they have to compete against all the great recordings by great conductors of the 20th century. This was not a problem before recordings, nor in the first few decades of recorded music when recordings of any particular work were still relatively rare.
@@ThreadBombAnd in some cases they have to compete against their own prior recordings!
Thank you for this great reflection. Your discussion of conducting traditions and how some of the period instrument/early music people have destroyed those traditions reminds me of how the use of portamenti in opera, including in Italian opera, has been systematically eliminated from modern performance practice. The literalists insist that it only happens ‘where the composer indicates it,’ yet we literally have recordings of singers who actually worked with (say) Puccini directly or with conductors who worked with Verdi or Puccini - and virtually all of those recordings contradict the literalist perspective. (I’m inclined to say that the same might even apply to a lesser extent to German lieder.). Evidently, portamenti is a function of legato in Italian vocal music, rather than a special effect. Are these changes the result of a lack of historical knowledge, or the result of something else?
Simply contemporary taste combined with the need to be different, I'd say.
BTW, the primacy of Beethoven in the early 19th century symphony concerts is reflected by the New York Philharmonic programs, the orchestra did four concerts in each of its first two seasons 1842-44, a Beethoven Symphony was the concert opener for 5 out of the 8 concerts (the other 3 concerts had as openers Beethoven Egmont Overture, the Mozart Jupiter Symphony and Spohr's 1st Symphony--the programs are online). It seemed like the way you programmed a concert back then was to start with a big piece by Beethoven and then play lighter stuff afterward, including solos, opera arias and usually an overture or other shorter piece for the finale. Composers for the concert finales included Weber (several different overtures), Kalliwoda, Romberg, Lindpainter and Herold. By the 1880s the big symphony had migrated to the end of the program and was sometimes by someone other than Beethoven, forming a pattern that seems to have held to the present day.
When a famous violinist was asked about historically informed performance , the famous violinist said it was hysterical. Despite the joke somentruth. I love the rhythm of toscanini or elegiac quality of Walter. Thank goodness there is so much of theirs to select
I read a new article on a group studying Beethoven's metronome and his metronome markings which said something along the lines that he may have just been simply looking at the other of the metronome (which moves faster) and when you look at the correct end of the metronome the traditional tempos most conductors have been using for the last hundred years are already correct. But anyway, interesting talk. I admit I don't follow many new conductors because of many of the things you mentioned but mainly because many seem to be trying too hard to set themselves apart instead of just following the score, leading with some passion and not trying to manage every single detail and just keep the scope of the work as a whole together into a form that sounds natural.
Beethoven's metronome marks were not in fact based on his experience using an actual metronome. They were based on written tempo charts that gave markings for each movement designation. Factor in the fact that the machine itself was likely quite fallible from one prototype to the next, and the possibility of inaccuracy is magnified many times over. This leaves aside the aesthetic and musical arguments concerning practicality in realtime performance on instruments of the period, the likely flexibility of pulse within a movement (totally unlike the mechanical accuracy of so many HIP performances today), the acoustics of the performance space, etc. The whole business is such a mess that we're far better off when musicians operate by what makes the most sense at any given time.
Its proven that conductors can have a new fresh approach without using gimmicks and detracting from the score. Take Litton's new release of Prokofiev symphonies for example. You reviewed these with glowing praise and I'm in total agreement. Of course BIS recording expertise is a major factor in highlighting the beauty of these performances.
When the misbehavior of Conductors is involved, the worst of the lot is the guy that was the MD at the Florida Orchestra in Tampa. Reviews indicated that he had to have at least 2000 fingers, that all wiggled some sort of "direction"... Didn't use a baton because he had 10 of them. Well, I ran into a trio of the orchestra's musicians complaining at an ATM. I asked.... And it turns out that Irwin Hoffman decided to take a whole symphony at double time. Why? He wanted to go home early, and "The audience will never know...." (yeah.. right... ) Irwin had been a standby in Chicago as I remember, but could actually conduct in Tampa and St Petersburg... The orchestra hated him... he hated the orchestra, and it showed. He finally got no contract renewal, and there was a hunt for a new conductor, and the orchestra settled on Jahja Ling. Amazing things happened at that point. That was the year after I became the recordist.. (Mr Microphone...) -- The Musicians during my first recording session were aggressive... I spoke with the Shop Steward, and told him I was **donating** my services to the orchestra because the orchestra could not afford me. I was doing it to help the orchestra... and suddenly had 70 close friends... Got all the excitement from the back stage areas...
I have just listened to Cobra's Beethoven 9th, and oh.. My... Goodness was that painful to watch and listen to! If I haven't listened to your explanation before hand, I would have thought that my connection was lagging or something. It was so so slow and completely altered, I didn't recognize any Beethoven in it!!!!!
Great rant ... I emphasize with you; the parameters are there for good reason.
Micheal Gielen was a real rarity in recent times. He worked in Germany with one orchestra (SWR Symphony) more or less later in life and it produced a unique sound under his direction. Earlier, Toscanini conducted the world premiere of La Boheme and recorded it and he played cello in the world premiere of Verdi's Otello and recorded that too. You're absolutely right about recent performance practices. You're also right about Norrington; what an absolutely dreadful Mahler 9. (I'll stay with Karajan's 1982 or Bernstein's NYPO, there.)
Gielen’s Mahler cycle is possibly my single favorite, totally unique but in an organic rather than contrived fashion.
@@AlexMadorsky I understand why you appreciate Gielen's Mahler. It's outstanding. The Rosbaud Mahler set Dave recommended is worth hearing too if you haven't heard it already.
@@thescientificmusician3531 and the same orchestra for both Rosbaud and Gielen, although many years apart.
I had to sample the cobra 9th on RUclips. A 27 minute first movement? Its so absurd its almost funny. Yet all those comments on their calling the performance revelatory, the only REAL performance that counts. I am amazed anyone finds,,pleasure in it.
Paul G.
Perhaps their paid comments. After all, someone paid for the recordings...
Long, long ago, I recall reading an opinion piece about the current state of popular music. The conclusion was much the same. "In the old days" performers had years, even decades, to grow, mature, refine and articulate their unique message/contribution. Nowadays they have to grab the public's attention right away, and keep the focus on themselves; otherwise, they become irrelevant, and popular focus moves on to the next hot thing. I've never forgotten that as I observe the shenanigans of popular music "stars." Apparently, the same dynamic is at work in the classical music industry.
I'm hoping Hoeneck doesn't go down that path, considering how fresh and genuine his recordings were of Dvorak 8th and the Eroica. Maybe the Beethoven 9 challenged him too much to relax? Past conductors battled with it and changed their approach, especially as they got older. We'll see, I guess. My heroes of 21st Century conducting are the men and women who find new or forgotten scores and bring them stunningly to life: Gil Rose in Boston or Kenneth Woods in England for instance. Why compete with Toscanini and Karajan and Giulini and Szell etc when you can do something they didn't do?
I’m sorry but I got the Dvorak 8th as a new release. I love the D8th. Almost from the beginning you here “different “ things especially in terms of tempo. Slow sections are played slower;faster sections are played even faster. The changes in tempo are so jarring. I have been suspect Honeck
Since then. I try to listen to a recording(streaming etc) before I buy. The sound engineering is exemplary and if you like Honeck’s interpretation than it is definitely worth buying.
I think his Dvorak 8 is wonderful. But so are Kubelik and Kertesz. And the very lyrical late recording by Giulini on Sony, if you don't want too much excitement. Maybe I just love the piece!
I mostly agree with the analysis od DH. As a former frequent visitor and still admiror of the Concertgebouw Orchestra chief conductors as Haitink, Van Beinum and Mengelberg were building up a tradition which now is disappearing. Even guest conductors as Krips, Kondrashin and others made wonderful recordings part of that tradition. But on the other hand I don't agree of DH's opinion of the period instruments movement. yes, I don't want to hear a period instrument performance of Brahms, Verdi etc. But: I immensely prefer a Bach cantata performed by Herreweghe above what - let say - Toscanini, Reiner, Szell or Giulini would have done with that (if they did). The Concertgebouw Orchestra build up great longer term collaborations with former period instrument conductors like Harnoncourt, Herreweghe, Gardiner and Pinnock. With great results. So the truth is not that black-white, but sometmes somewhere in between I think.
You are tilting at windmills. I never said I preferred Bach performed by Reiner et al to a period instrument group, and as you conceded, there's no way to make the comparison since they didn't play that music regularly (if at all). However, I would never say, as you do, that HIP groups must be better without having the opportunity to listen and make the actual comparison. There is a myth going on around here that I dislike period instrument performances of baroque music. That is nonsense. No one who has bothered to look at my work over the years could possibly make that claim. It's all out there, both on this channel and on ClassicsToday.com, in hundreds if not thousands of reviews and videos recommending HIP performances of that music. So please, look before you talk.
Can you also do a video on different conductors' preferences on orchestra seating arrangement?
No, sorry. I just don't think that's an interesting enough topic, and many conductors weren't consistent about it anyway.
I think the old Penguin Guide may have been UK-biased (an update would sell like hot cakes) but not sure about Gramophone or the BBC's Record Review. In the latter case, its recommended recordings (going back 20+ years) are available as a database from the website and I haven't noticed any bias there. All critics have their preferences (and biases) of course.
DH (as always) provides a lively and thought-provoking talk and I am totally addicted to them. I am just an older guy who listens to classical music, but one who reads some music history now and then (with limited comprehension). It seems to me that DH might overemphasize conductors' self regard and underestimate the modern social and economic factors that shape contemporary classical music. I'm surprised that DH doesn't mention Richard Taruskin, who so brilliantly, if monomaniacally, deconstructed the claims of "authentic" performance by the early music performers. He pointed out that the hallmarks of "authentic" performance--emphatic rhythms, fleet tempos, etc--fit a modernist aesthetic to a T. And as a young listener in the 70s and 80s, I was pretty thrilled by a lot of it. As DH says, performers need some kind of way to separate themselves from the pack, and the modern era, especially since 1945, has created an awe-inspiring yet suffocating pack. There is a myriad of magnificent musicians--conductors included--struggling to find careers and audiences, and the model developed quite recently for the top ensembles--basically full-time employment with a regular season from September through May, and a summer season from July through August--was uncommon right up through the early 20th century (my home town orchestra, Cleveland, did not add a summer season until the late 1960s). I read a book that pointed out that, if you lived in Vienna in the early to mid-1800s, you'd be lucky to hear a handful of performances of Beethoven symphonies over your lifetime. As many commentators have pointed out, and as DH so brilliantly tells us in his talks, there are now cascades of very fine recorded performances of almost everything in the classical canon. How do you persuade an audience to come to another Beethoven 5th, or to buy another recording of it? If it's just a lot like Toscanini, or Kleiber, or Szell, great as that is, it's hard to persuade people to pay $60 for a concert (not to mention persuading them to pay for a 25-week subscription concert series). As DH says, the performance tradition is only a few generations old, but concert seasons are annual, and are you really going to keep going back to hear basically the same thing? Records can do that at a fraction of the cost.
Thank you for your thoughtful comments. The answer to your question is "yes." The audience for classical music is not monolithic, and as is always the case in such matters the "hard core" is a minority within a minority. It is a fact that the "meat and potatoes" classics sell best. They always have and always will, particular as done by big name performers, be they orchestras, conductors, or vocal and instrumental soloists. The vast majority of audiences wants to hear famous people play the same old stuff, over and over, because for them it is STILL a sometime thing. They are a well-off, monied population of relatively casual listeners looking for a pleasant evening of dining and "culture," and there's nothing wrong with that. This is what "classical music" means for them. The problem is not persuading audiences to hear the umpteenth performance of Beethoven's Fifth. It is explaining why they need to hear something else--that's the challenge. I assure you, I do not underestimate social and economic factors, but before raising that issue you would do well to define exactly what they are. As for Taruskin, I have mentioned him numerous times, but in the proper place. This wasn't it.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thanks, sir. No criticism about Taruskin, by the way. I'm sure you know his work thoroughly, it just seemed to me to fit with what you had to say about the Early Music movement. By the social and economic forces, I really just mean the huge amount of classical music product that is available, both in concert halls and on recordings, now exacerbated by the internet. Recordings and tickets sell more when there is something "special" about them. One of the great benefits that I have derived from your talks is learning about great performances that I totally ignored because I knew precisely zero about Paul Kletzki and Carl Schuricht (and many more). Like so many other of your fans (and I had never signed into You Tube until I did so to subscribe to your channel), I have started hunting down recordings that I never would have bought without your recommendation. More then ever these days, ensembles need a "brand," promising something out of the ordinary, and I think that imperative is felt by conductors particularly, who for better or worse are the public faces of their ensembles. I was moved in your talk about the Warner box of Szell recordings when you brought up the unique way in which Szell is still alive as part of the Cleveland sound. Some of that is his genuine impact on the corporate identity of that orchestra. But some, I think, is because the Szell sound is what Cleveland is supposed to have. It's what distinguishes them and helps sell the tickets and recordings. I love that orchestra and that sound, but sometimes that need still to be Szell's orchestra must feel like a constraint as well as a strength.
@@robertkunath1854 Thanks for the clarification! Very interesting indeed.
Oh, yes - the good stuff!
One of my favorite overtures is Glinka's Overture to Ruslan and Ludmilla. In my opinion most conductors take the tempo insanely fast, as though they had a bus to catch. However, a student orchestra at Caenegie Hall had the tempo just right.
It was a driven tempo by many older Soviet conductors, such as Temirkanov too. There's something about the simplicity of the main melody, the overt scalic writing that relies on one heavy syncopation for interest that makes speed quite a friend.
If you've ever been in an orchestra where a conductor came in and only rehearsed "the transitions", you'd know just how good orchestral players are today. They're so good a conductor with no time to rehearse can still put on a concert.
Hm. I watched some highlights of a Mahler performance by Berliner Philharmoniker conducted by this young conductor who had to stand in for an indisposed famous conductor. It was very freaking apparent he looked out of place and the Berliners might as well play the symphony on autopilot without him on the podium
@@stackedactor1 I've been to many rehearsals. There is nothing more embarassing or frustrating than watching a young conductor "educate" the Chicago Symphony. Usually one of the musicians cuts the bullshit. " maestro, you want it faster or slower?"
Yup. I've been lucky enough to attend rehearsals of one of the best orchestras in the land (if not the world), and that's exactly what they've done. Sometimes over and over.
I attend a rehearsal for Brahms 1st. They played a few name- he stopped and ask the kettle drummer to use one hand instead of 2
They played it again. " That's fine". Rehearsal over. The concert was great. The musicians know the music better than the conductor.
We need your thoughts sometime about Gustavo Dudamel, a media darling whose conducting is hysterically bug-eyed, smirky and spasmodic - a cartoon-like vision of what conducting must be. His “The Ninth” with Sinfonica de Galicia sounds fine - due to the excellent regional orchestra keeping a straight face and giving the piece its due - but it’s visually one of the greatest pieces of unintentional comedy on RUclips.
And he was a Rattle protege! [throws hands up]
someone im sure said the same thing 150 years ago about some young conductor. they were getting their kicks back then just the same. ill admit, he is pretty funny to watch. But i doubt hes as much of a clown as you think. i say this with respect btw. i used to watch a performance of Symphonie Fantastique that i loved. I thought he was cool. I can see how he might seem clownish to some. But that guy Essa Pekka? No, i cant watch him. I guess im not a huge fan of Sibelius. I like Berlioz way more. i dont know, we like what we like i guess.
I became very obsessed with conductors in college when I read The Maestro Myth and started collecting records. I still have some pretty unimpeachable heros, but I have soured somewhat generally on the topic over the years. Both on stage and from the audience I've felt a long drought of any new heros from the podium. This gives me some sympathy with the historical recording crowd, despite the superior playing and sound available now. It is especially disappointing when a new potentially great conductor changes like this. Maybe an update to your "reliable artist" list is in order... anyway, really enjoyed hearing your thoughts on this topic.
There's a German pianist here in RUclips playing Beethoven sonatas at half speed. He seems to explain stuff well, but after the third video it becomes obvious he can't be right. It gets ridiculous by the fifth video.
I guess he's Dutch.
Oh, you mean Mr. Double-Beat, "The Authentic [sic] Sound"? He (Wim Winters) is a Flemish organist and lives in Belgium. I've occasionally left him heckling comments, which he shadow-bans but does not usually delete.
And I thought this was going to be about James Levine, Charles Dutoit, etc.
I do conduct myself (amateur ensembles) and quite agree with you.
There is an enormous amount of b.s. involved in conducting.
Most of what many conductors do on the podium is superfluous and has no positive impact whatsoever on the performance.
I do pity orchestral musicians who have to endure incompetent showboaters who then take all the credit.
The ignorance of many concertgoers is partly to blame. So is the not-so-invisible hand of the market .
Interesting about Honeck... What do you think about rescoring Beethoven? One example: there is a traditional "insert" given to the trumpets in the coda of the 1st mvt. of the Eroica. It gives the trumpets the full statement of the melody in octaves, fortissimo. This does not exist in the score, yet Honeck has the trumpets play the inserted parts. For someone supposedly concerned about authenticity, it is an odd choice... One I agree with completely, but it shows a certain inconsistency... and the fallacy of those who claim to have special insight.
There is no doubt in my mind that it is correct to allow the trumpets to complete the tune. Trumpets in Beethoven's day couldn't do it, and evidently he didn't care, but his intention is obvious and the failure to honor that intention is unmusical and an excellent example of false historicism.
Sometimes it feels like “authentic” conductors are conducting autopsies rather than performances... The performance of a piece of music is a living thing.
All the old conductors 'helped' with orchestration. Missa Solemnis is a perfect example. In the fugues the natural horns and trumpets would play a theme and have to drop out for certain notes not playable in that time. A modern valve instrument can play all the notes and it is schoolmasterish not to insert them.
Great overview. I agree in regards to Cobra's interpretation of the 9th symphony. I heard it myself and I HATED it!!!!! I wanted to just fall asleep!!! I can't comprehend what gives some people the right to do that to music. Though I have to say... despite your opinion of Robert Shaw, :-) I find his Beethoven 9th to be my absolute favorite; tempo, orchestra, and chorus! :-) I saw a live video concert from ASO with his performance of the work from 1986 and it was flawless. :-)
This was one of your more interesting rants, eliciting two comments from me. First, I wonder whether, and how far, economic considerations are at play in prompting conductors to "behave badly" in the way you have described? I'm thinking that, at least for the recording industry, "doing it differently" justifies making more recordings of standard repertoire that we really don't need, but which bring handsome royalties to aspiring conductors. Norrington, for instance, would probably not have risen to the status of a "general purpose" orchestral conductor of standard repertoire, and would scarcely have merited attention among record collectors, if he had adopted tried and true interpretive priorities. And so he adopted his idiosyncratic manner, based on putative "historically informed" practices, and that created something of a sensation that lasted long enough to launch his career. On the other hand, and this is my second point, period instrument practices work well enough, and at times can be revelatory, in "early music" up to, say, 1750, and at least in that repertoire there is some justification, beyond "novelty value" for the "historically informed" approach championed by folks like Roger Norrington.
Dear Dave, these are troublesome times, with no respect for traditions. Tends overwrite traditions. Even institutional traditions are trying to be “recreated”. The demolishing of traditions prepare the landscape for dilettantes and megalomaniacs to establish their grounds and fortresses with the help of an idiotic corporate system which under the guise of agencies and PR companies apply commercial practices to arts. This is an ambiguity. Art is not a product, and cannot be commercialized. Art is essence, artworks are tokens thereof. Each is unique and unrepeatable. Each instantiation of a musical work (independently from its practical qualities) is unique, unrepeatable. How can a stupid robotic corporate system commercialize works of art which cannot be produced on production lines. That which can be “produced” can only be the work of artisans, and cannot be an artists’ creative output. Realizing this handicap artists are pushed (forced) to become unique in a quantitative way because quality cannot be the only attribute of a potentially commercial item. In these cases the artistic qualities of a person and the creative output of this person lack the conditions for commercialization. So, they achieve it through quantitative, as you say “absurd” “grotesque” abominations which do not belong to that what is to be done; what artists should be doing is to be aware of traditions, and take that same path as their predecessors and become the tradition of future generations. Tradition does not originate from a moment, from a time span, decade or a person or persons, nor is it a stylistic/practical mannerism. It derives from a complex understanding of many artists’, writers’, philosophers’ ideas, and works and belongs to the even bigger cultural and historical Picture. The refusal of tradition is the refusal of history, refusal of ancestors. It is refusing parents, families, schools, and one’s own history of existence. A denial of one’s self. What will remain then?
Waiting eagerly to hear your ideas and opinions. (On a side note, I was the artistic assistant of Abbado for three years 2011-2013. I know exactly what you mean in your video about him, I could say so many things, which would bring his artistic output under a different light. You put everything very gently and kindly. Thank you.)
Very interesting talk!!!
Perhaps identifying some conductors who don't succumb to this trend would be in order.
Check out my reviews.
"If it sounds like trash, it probably is" lol! Do audiences today have any real musical standards or are they victims of the PR and convince themselves that they're experiencing something extraordinary? I think that it would be amusing to teleport some of today's conductors to places like the old La Scala where they weren't shy about letting someone know what they actually thought of them 😀
Sometimes pretty undeservedly, though. I always feel bad for Kleiber in that Scala performance of Otello he did.
@@Recolation Yes, the Scala audience is famously partisan, in a bad way.
David, do you listen to Wim Winters and his Authentic Sound youtube channel? He talks quite a bit about the single vs double beat metronome and I find his argument compelling at times. Would be curious to hear your thoughts on that given your comments in this video about Beethoven metronome markings. Stellar video as always - thank you for these.
No, I don't watch him, but thanks for tipping me off.
Hasn't it been established Beethoven used a broken, or defective, metronome?
@@jefolson6989 or mis-read the dial?
thanks for the"diatribe" i very much agree with you.
I wonder whether another factor might be shifting tastes: a preference for a lean, thin sound, with metronomic rhythms; and sudden quick, explosive accents; extreme dramatic contrasts, extremely fast or extremely slow; suddenly loud, then dramatically soft; a preference for brevity over length. To me, much of this sounds like a shift in taste, post-Stravinsky, needlessly justified by theories or historiography. So many of the recent recordings of Beethoven symphonies pretty much sound the same - fast, clean, motoric, with super lean sonorities, exaggerated dynamics, sonic effects. These approaches can at first sound new and exciting, but I've found them mostly dull, but that is, of course, my own taste.
You make a very good point.
I remember Taruskin saying that about the early music movement, that the aesthetic was more consistent with the mood of high modernist neo-classicism than with any imaginary historical taste. Maybe Norrington’s aesthetic is more informed by Le corbusier or Scandinavian furniture than any dubious musicological authority
"Todays orchestras are so much better than todays conductors are"
Celebration for that statement Dave!
You absolutely nail the point.
There are MORE great orchestras than there are great, or even good, conductors.
@@lucapostorino1963 in the US there are some 900 pro or semi- pro orchestras. Are there even 10 great conductors, or even 100 good ones. The vast majority are average to awful.
@@jefolson6989 But it's not really their fault for being awful, it's just what the system has become. It's perverse to blame the conductors for not being able to take advantage of what David points out, that back in the day they had way more rehearsal time to cultivate their own sound. Make everything jet-set and thoroughly capitalist, then ridicule conductors for failing to match their predecessors? It's akin to blaming Gen-Z for their addiction to social media invented by Boomers. Tragic situation, but look to the cause rather than the effect. "So many terrible conductors," well yeah. Stop sneering and figure out how to change it.
@@bdc1117 I blame the audiences. I have seen many standing ovations for mediocre performances. Seems "loud" is the most important quality in those.
I'm pretty sure I could conduct the Brahms 1st, Beethoven Eroica and a few more, as long as its a great orchestra. If there were more great conductors and few great orchestras it would not improve the overall quality of performance. Orchestras don't really need a conductor, but a conductor needs an orchestra.
@@jefolson6989 Pointless to blame audiences. Why expect them to know a great performance from a mediocre one? And if they think it's great, you can't take that away from them. If orchestras don't need conductors at all, why complain that there aren't more great conductors? I think the "greatest" conductors tend to be overrated, but chemistry between a great orchestra and a musical leader can still happen and can't be replicated by an orchestra alone. Someone has to direct the proceedings. Even if it were all worked out in rehearsal without a conductor, you'd still need leadership, and the results are going to vary according to whether or not the same musical criteria are being fulfilled.
Every conductor, listener, and even critics could really benefit from reading Erich Leinsdorf's excellent book "The Composer's Advocate". I realize I collect more older recordings than new, and I think it's because those old-timers just let the music play itself - they certainly knew how to phrase, balance and inject adrenalin, but they didn't micromanage. Monteux, Reiner, Munch, Paray, Dorati, Walter...we could sure use conductors like them today. Modern "star" conductors I find revolting. The lesser-known, quieter bunch (Slatkin, Litton, Jarvi, yes - Kuchar, and others) seem much more interested in presenting music honestly and hew to what's on the page - I like that.
I am curious about your thoughts on Christian Thielemann? I really enjoy his performance of Brahms’ German Requiem as well as most of the Beethoven symphonies. However, his more recent Schumann and Bruckner cycles are nothing to write home about. Do you think Thielemann has been impacted by the PR machine, or is he simply not a strong enough of a conductor to get his arms around Schumann’s and Bruckner’s symphonies, which require intelligent interpretation and do not work well on autopilot?
I think he's a very limited talent. Most of his recordings have been terrible.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I concur, and he is a terrible sight for musicians as a conductor.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I quite agree. I have always found him very ponderous and unimaginative. How does someone that uninspiring get to conduct the VPO? (Ditto Simon Rattle )
As I understand it the VPO is self governing and a committee consisting mainly of its musicians decides who gets to conduct.
Ps: what is your opinion of Guergiev?
Being more far more interested in orchestral music than in opera I can only go by the few symphonic concerts I have watched on RUclips.
So far I have can't say I have been impressed.
(His Brahms 3 with the Munich Philharmonic is one of the worst I have come across.)
@@tarakb7606 The inmates running the asylum!
It's happening not just in the music community but everywhere. Style has replaced substance.
I wonder, David, how soloists fit in to this pattern or whether they have the potential to disrupt it. When it comes to a performance (say Rachmaninov’s second piano concerto), to what degree does the pianist work out the overall aesthetic with a conductor - such as the tempo of those opening, ominous chords in the Rach 2? Something like that has the power to set out the rest of the movement - so a soloist with artistic integrity could presumably speak truth to power in such a case. I genuinely don’t know the answer, as I’m not someone who knows that workings of an orchestra in rehearsal. It could be that soloists have fallen into some of the pitfalls that you’ve mentioned of some conductors, but to my ear that doesn’t seem to be as prevalent a pattern.
I think it depends on the dynamics between the two and their relative positions in the musical hierarchy. I know some soloists who take charge and the conductor is merely along for the ride, and others who meekly acquiesce to whatever the conductor demands. There is no standard.
thank you for that rant
Dear David, thank you for your reflexion, I think you hit some great points that might apply to the whole art/entertainment industry. I just would like to add something from my far shorter experience with classical recordings. Some years ago, I had never been able to connect with Bach choral works (for instance, Richter doing Matthew's Passion), and I thought it just wasn't for me or I wasn't sensitive enough. Then I purchased by chance the Gardiner recording, not even knowing about the whole period-movement thing. The music really got to me then for the first time, and eventually led me to be a fan of Bach choral music (and I love Richter's recording now!). My point is that, even if the period movement has been kidnapped by the industry's neurosis and pettiness, it really depends on where the musical intention comes from: if you are doing it for the sake of a theory or a trend, or if you are doing it because you feel that the music still has room for different approaches that will make it beautiful. The great thing about this, I believe, is that when it's done with real artistic interest and love for the music, the different approaches show how the piece is so good that it works in many different ways (today I wouldn't like to be without my Richter or my Gardiner, or my Herreweghe or my Klemperer!).
Thank you for all your videos and articles, I keep learning a lot and having so much fun (and spending money, Oh God). Love from Argentina.
Agreed. Perhaps I have the wrong end of the stick, but if it hadn’t been for those dusty dreary academics in Leipzig and elsewhere, we wouldn’t have had such marvelous recordings as McCreesh’s “ A Venetian Coronation”or be listening to previously unknown works by Purcell, Monteverdi, Gabrieli and Striggio.
And the only Handel we’d have would be The Messiah , Water Music and Fireworks, lush and thick with velvety vibrato from Ormandy, unbearable to me now…🙄🙄🙄
Very thought provoking 'mumblings' - I was particularly taken by two of your observations. First, the question of how much time a conductor has to develop a perspective or performance style. Reading about past conductors, it seems to me that in the past conductors had the time to master their craft by working for some time with a less well-known ensemble away from a wider audience before gaining acclaim with one of the 'big' orchestras. To what extent is that true today? In addition, what conductor today is likely to devote 20-30 years to a single orchestra in the manner of a Szell or Karajan? Second, with regard to the 'cult of personality' of many contemporary conductors. From what I have read- and I acknowledge that I lack your erudition- such a phenomenon is not new, although we may be reaching new depths at the moment. I am thinking, for example, of Toscanini (a conductor I generally admire), who in his lifetime was referred to as the Maestro as if no one else approached his degree of mastery over the classical repertoire.
Of course there have always been such "personality cults," but those were few and far between, whereas today they are the PR norm from the very start of a career, and not the natural result of a lifetime of steady work and general acclaim.
The best way for new conductors to create new sounds is to work with new composers. Lots of great works from people like Christopher Rouse and Leshnoff. It's very easy to create new and expressive musical instruments in the 21th century. Why stick with wood? Messiaen was using electronic instruments back in the 1940s.
A peripheral aspect to this, for me at least, is the promotion of a conductor's image on the cover of recordings. It's almost as if the conductor is more important than the composer. Oh, wait - he is (at least for the PR people). It's one reason I actively avoid a lot of Karajan recordings.
You can thank the Toscanini cult for that. Ad men took over classical music in the 1930s and 40s.
@@davebarclay4429 I totally agree with you about Hickox, Handley and Thomson. You could add Charles Mackerras to this list too.
I thought this would be about conductors who fly into rages and scream. We've heard that recording of Toscanini...