The kind of love he's talking about is a trauma bond. He's been stuck with no one but her for seven+ years, whatever feelings he's developed for her were against his will and whatever affection he has for her is a survival instinct/coping mechanism.
@@mei_stein3330 I dunno, he doesn't have to at this point. He knows he can leave. He could have absolutely gone off on her if he wanted to. I think he grew to care about her. That doesn't mean he returns her feelings, just that he cares. There are many forms of love. To be fair though, I think Jorge is trying to make Calypso more sympathetic in this version.
Ok I know I'm supposed to hate her but her voice is amazing! I also wanted to share something Jay said.... He wrote this song when he was feeling really low so it makes this song even more special to him.
@OzziesLittleFroggie this is EPIC, not the original mythos. If you're gonna hate Calypso in EPIC for what she does in her mythos that doesn't apply here, do the same with Odysseus
@@LukeBridger I understand where you’re coming from but even in the epic universe she still a terrible character.... Maybe she didn't do the unspeakable stuff she did in the original book... However she was denfiatly harrassing Ody knowing full well he had a wife... Forcing affection and becoming posseve of him... She also tried to push her delusional love as true love even when he didn't feel the same way about her and said as much multiple times. Her justification was because she loved him and was lonely for so long even though she knew what she was doing was wrong.
@OzziesLittleFroggie She even explains she thought he was sent as her true love by the gods. She knew nobody could come or go, so him washing up was divine intervention. And her advances never went past flirting. This is the first person she's seen in 100 years. She's not a great person, but she's not terrible in any respect of that word, she doesn't know any better about how to feel about him and heals, feeds and shelters him regardless of him rejecting her sexual advances. She knows the gods use manipulation to sleep with mortals, so she attempts to do the same thing, as that's all she knows. This is JORGE's Calypso, it's not the same character as other adaptations.
I see no one talking about how Calypso said "For once, I wish you would lie and say-" followed with Odysseus' line "I love you". Like, Odysseus was obviously lying. See how emotionless it was, and how there was not a second hesitation before walking away? He does NOT love Calypso, not even in a platonic sense. He just felt sorry for her enough to try and soften the blow before he leaves.
You could be right. Yeah that’s why I was like maybe he just likes that she took care of him but he definitely shouldn’t like her for what she had done
@@FlippMusic ...not a chance, bro. Not a chance he even liked her like a friend. Would YOU like the person who imprisoned you and kept you by force for 7 years? There isn't enough Stockholm Syndrome on the planet to make Ody even remotely like Calypso after that, regardless if any sort of "unsavoury business" happened between them. Not with how badly he was missing his home this whole time.
@@blueteller Its definitely a take I can believe. Calypso could have killed him off anytime in 7 years after he kept rejecting him. Remember, the worst thing calypso did in epic was like verbally push and try to get him to like her. Odysseus definitely doesn't love her, but I see that "I love you but not in the that you want me to" line totally as a lie to calm her tf down but also a begrudging thanks for taking care of him for 7 years.
I love that jorge made her seem unstable and sick in her mind cause at first she was on and on about her not sorry for loving him and the second he said that he s not interested in her that way she started shouting that she regrets loving him and partially blaming him for not loving her
@ usually normal people dont keep people 7 years against their will, for her it s not much cause she s immortal but he missed 7 years of his life with his family , i cant feel pity for her sorry
@@rymasan5489 pretty sure she was just following Zeus's orders since he explicitly said Odysseus being on the island was his punishment. But you don't have to feel bad for someone to recognise if someone is just venting about an unrequited love versus actively being abusive and manipulative like. Actions don't become good or bad depending on whether you think the person doing them is a good or bad person.
That string part you’re talking about sounds just like the one from Puppeteer, which is the first song in the Circe Saga!! I’m glad someone else has caught on to it too!!❤️💛🐝🐝⛵️⛵️🍖🍖☠️☠️🎶🎶
That string part you heard was from the Circe saga in the change of time in puppeteer (between ody sending his crew to check the island out to Euro returning all frazzled).
I adore your analysis, I catch on to so much thanks to you that I probably would have never if I hadn't seen your reactions and analysis. I'm not music savvy but I love musicals and I love when someone explains to me motifs and themes and such cause I rarely notice and it makes things so much better, even so more in EPIC, cause we know Jorge does that so much.
The type of love i believe it is Stockholm. And good on you for knowing the source material and knowing what kind of person Calypso is and didnt just say she can do no wrong because of a pretty voice
We've had no evidence to suggest Calypso SA'd Odysseus in Epic, Athena said he'd never cheated and ofc being SA'd is not cheating but it does feel like there is more to suggest she didn't in this than that she did. Otherwise she didn't rly 'oppress him' in this, all she did was be too overtly into him. Like she never hurt him that we saw, she just fed and housed him rly that we've seen
I know you’re doing the songs one at a time but I would recommend listening to get in the water right after Charybdis to get the full affect (I’m saying that in the best way possible without spoiling anything)
Odysseus is infamously an unreliable narrator in the Odyssey so we do not know the full extent of Calypso and his relationship. Homer does write that “Odysseus no longer cared for her” so it’s 100% possible he loved her and loved paradise but his love for Penelope eventually out grew his care for Calypso.
Seeing as in the original Odyssey it stated that he would spent every morning on the shore crying to himself I don't think he ever felt romantic love for the goddess or her paradise, but care doesn't mean romance so he may have cared for her as a friend for a short period of time which may be what Jorge is referencing in the song
You shouldn't pick and choose if you're going to reference the orignal source material. It's very explicitly stated in the odyssey that Calypso made him lie with her against his will, and that even as she tried to enchant him with her songs to forget about ithaca and live happily with her, he only wished to die. And not all of the references that what she did to him drive him to contemplating suicide are from parts of the Odyssey that are narrated by Odysseus, either.
@@akaittou all people pick and choose when referencing mythos, literature relies heavily on interpretation. Calypso in Homers version of the Epic is a progressive take on a woman calling out the hypocrisy of male gods and their treatment towards goddesses. Yes she was used to show a man at his “lowest” by being fully submitted to a woman while strength nor intellect can do a thing to save oneself, but that’s bc women in general were viewed pretty shittily in the times the mythos was at its peak culturally. I don’t care to view her in the way you do and that’s ok. It’s an oral based mythos, nearly all context the ancient Hellenes had is lost to us thankfully. It was a very primitive culture that we can learn a lot from while also using our modern context. If you’re passionate about male SA survivors, you do you and use this story to live your truth. Calypso is not real and to me she and Odysseus had a consensual relationship while they were both casted away from society by the Olympians. It seems Jorge is using a similar concept in his adaptation as the lyrics reflect her being banished and stranded as well.
Remember this is a different universe than the books. So don't think it's the same characters. SPOILERS In the book Odysseus sleeps with circe and later it In one of the different versions of the books their child accidentally kills him and marries Penelope so...yeah..
The telegony isn’t considered canon to the odyssey though. Also original Odysseus had to get circe to release his men and promise not to harm them further, so Jorge’s version sticks as close to myth as possible there while cutting out the coercion/dubious consent
Please understand Claypso is not a villian most definitely not in this adaptation and i fucking hate when people can or choose not to forgive or understand but yet give people like posideon circe or even eurolycus a chance like wtf its not fair
Hell, people NEVERRR talk about Odysseus in the original Odyssey, he did some pretty shitty and fucked up stuff, even cheating on Penelope but when it comes to Calypso, everyone loves talking about her SA'ing Ody, even tho that doesn't happen in EPIC, it's truly strange
She is 1000% a villain in this version. Entirely excluding everything from the source material, and ONLY going by the explicit lines in the show without inferring ANY of the context given through music and what the lyrics suggest, she's still, quite possibly, one of the most heinous, most line real life, villains in the show. 1. She finds a man on her island, and immediately tries to initiate intimacy with him, before even leaning his name. 2. Finds out he is devoted to his WIFE, and continues to try to be intimate with him after he clearly, in the lyrics, says no. 3. Tells him no one can leave the island because of HER spell. I know I said I'd leave it implications, but we are left to understand she cannot leave because the gods imprisoned her there, but she tells Ody, through specific lines, that he cannot leave due to HER spell. So she could let him go to his wife, but she selfishly keeps him there, even when he begins to lose his mind. 4. He tries to kill himself, another implication, I know, but even after THAT, she still doesn't let him go, and continues to try to be intimate with him. Only when the gods show up and tell her he's gotta go, does she finally let up and give in. 5. After learning he can leave, she continues to try and convince him to stay, not by being nice, or telling him he can choose either, but by GUILTING HIM, she tries to make him feel bad by expressing her distress, and absolving herself entirely of blame for his captivity by claiming that he just couldn't handle the amount of love she had. This is not a stretch, this is just literally looking at the lyrics and the story as a whole and understanding what is going on. Jay is trying to throw a line out there for male victims of abuse, and people continue to say, he's no victim, he can't be! You can't be a victim if the other person involved isn't a villain! But that's just not it. Calypso might not have killed 543 men in a single blow, but she's just a much a villain as poseidon of you just want to go by just the lyrics and what we have in the musical.
My guess is that what Calypso did (depending on how you interpret things and what version of the story you read) is unfortunately way more common for people to experience in everyday life vs a mass murderer or a witch who turns people into pigs or the level of betrayal Eurylochus did . There's a level of distance they can put between themselves and what the character had done. This is why people can like villains despite the terrible things they do. At the end of the day they're a fictional character. Now when it comes to a character that is abusive, manipulative, or commits SA? Much less forgiving since it's unfortunately something many people will, and have experienced in their life, or know someone who has. Harder to sympathize or like a character who has done a terrible thing that was done to you or someone you love. Harder to see them as just a fictional character. Hope that makes sense. I get the frustration, but it's understandable people will be less forgiving to those that remind them of their source of trauma.
@Irishxlily Calypso didn't do any of that, though. That's the point. THIS specific Calypso doesn't do anything to Ody and is explicit that the spell put on her keeps her there, and Zeus puts Ody there, trapping them together. She doesn't have the power to let someone leave. Otherwise, she would have left herself. She does not abuse or SA him and I highly doubt she manipulates him in this adaptation, as nothing is done to Ody. It's completely different.
![Twenty One Pilots - “The Line” (from Arcane Season 2) [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/E2Rj2gQAyPA/mqdefault.jpg)
The kind of love he's talking about is a trauma bond. He's been stuck with no one but her for seven+ years, whatever feelings he's developed for her were against his will and whatever affection he has for her is a survival instinct/coping mechanism.
Oh I just assumed he was lying.
I think this is just as likely to be honest. @@leonglitch
Yes like "hey i love u, let me alone now"@@leonglitch
@@mei_stein3330 I dunno, he doesn't have to at this point. He knows he can leave. He could have absolutely gone off on her if he wanted to.
I think he grew to care about her. That doesn't mean he returns her feelings, just that he cares. There are many forms of love. To be fair though, I think Jorge is trying to make Calypso more sympathetic in this version.
idk i do think he genuinely did come to care for her, at least in some way. jorge always gave that impression.
Ok I know I'm supposed to hate her but her voice is amazing! I also wanted to share something Jay said.... He wrote this song when he was feeling really low so it makes this song even more special to him.
Who said you're supposed to hate tho
@ were supposed Calypso as a character.... She did really bad stuff to Ody
@OzziesLittleFroggie this is EPIC, not the original mythos.
If you're gonna hate Calypso in EPIC for what she does in her mythos that doesn't apply here, do the same with Odysseus
@@LukeBridger I understand where you’re coming from but even in the epic universe she still a terrible character.... Maybe she didn't do the unspeakable stuff she did in the original book... However she was denfiatly harrassing Ody knowing full well he had a wife... Forcing affection and becoming posseve of him... She also tried to push her delusional love as true love even when he didn't feel the same way about her and said as much multiple times. Her justification was because she loved him and was lonely for so long even though she knew what she was doing was wrong.
@OzziesLittleFroggie She even explains she thought he was sent as her true love by the gods. She knew nobody could come or go, so him washing up was divine intervention. And her advances never went past flirting. This is the first person she's seen in 100 years. She's not a great person, but she's not terrible in any respect of that word, she doesn't know any better about how to feel about him and heals, feeds and shelters him regardless of him rejecting her sexual advances.
She knows the gods use manipulation to sleep with mortals, so she attempts to do the same thing, as that's all she knows.
This is JORGE's Calypso, it's not the same character as other adaptations.
8:35 the string melody is from the beginning of Puppeteer in the Circe saga
As someone who watched the stream, i highly recommend watching Get in the water and 600 strikes back to back.
@@damionwatson6711 I mayyy have already done that :)
@FlippMusic ayyy nice!
I can’t hate her. She feels like a fae being who has lived years in isolation and glomps onto the first mortal she sees.
I see no one talking about how Calypso said "For once, I wish you would lie and say-" followed with Odysseus' line "I love you". Like, Odysseus was obviously lying. See how emotionless it was, and how there was not a second hesitation before walking away? He does NOT love Calypso, not even in a platonic sense. He just felt sorry for her enough to try and soften the blow before he leaves.
You could be right. Yeah that’s why I was like maybe he just likes that she took care of him but he definitely shouldn’t like her for what she had done
@@FlippMusic ...not a chance, bro. Not a chance he even liked her like a friend. Would YOU like the person who imprisoned you and kept you by force for 7 years? There isn't enough Stockholm Syndrome on the planet to make Ody even remotely like Calypso after that, regardless if any sort of "unsavoury business" happened between them. Not with how badly he was missing his home this whole time.
@@blueteller Its definitely a take I can believe. Calypso could have killed him off anytime in 7 years after he kept rejecting him. Remember, the worst thing calypso did in epic was like verbally push and try to get him to like her. Odysseus definitely doesn't love her, but I see that "I love you but not in the that you want me to" line totally as a lie to calm her tf down but also a begrudging thanks for taking care of him for 7 years.
I love that jorge made her seem unstable and sick in her mind cause at first she was on and on about her not sorry for loving him and the second he said that he s not interested in her that way she started shouting that she regrets loving him and partially blaming him for not loving her
or she's just lamenting an unrequited love like a lot of ppl do
@ usually normal people dont keep people 7 years against their will, for her it s not much cause she s immortal but he missed 7 years of his life with his family , i cant feel pity for her sorry
@@rymasan5489 pretty sure she was just following Zeus's orders since he explicitly said Odysseus being on the island was his punishment. But you don't have to feel bad for someone to recognise if someone is just venting about an unrequited love versus actively being abusive and manipulative like. Actions don't become good or bad depending on whether you think the person doing them is a good or bad person.
Calypso has to let him go. Since Zeus demand it via Athena fighting for his release. Hence Hermes came and told her.
That string part you’re talking about sounds just like the one from Puppeteer, which is the first song in the Circe Saga!! I’m glad someone else has caught on to it too!!❤️💛🐝🐝⛵️⛵️🍖🍖☠️☠️🎶🎶
Calypso was ordered by Zeus to release Odysseus so she has no choice (and is lashing out)
That string part you heard was from the Circe saga in the change of time in puppeteer (between ody sending his crew to check the island out to Euro returning all frazzled).
I adore your analysis, I catch on to so much thanks to you that I probably would have never if I hadn't seen your reactions and analysis. I'm not music savvy but I love musicals and I love when someone explains to me motifs and themes and such cause I rarely notice and it makes things so much better, even so more in EPIC, cause we know Jorge does that so much.
The type of love i believe it is Stockholm. And good on you for knowing the source material and knowing what kind of person Calypso is and didnt just say she can do no wrong because of a pretty voice
We've had no evidence to suggest Calypso SA'd Odysseus in Epic, Athena said he'd never cheated and ofc being SA'd is not cheating but it does feel like there is more to suggest she didn't in this than that she did. Otherwise she didn't rly 'oppress him' in this, all she did was be too overtly into him. Like she never hurt him that we saw, she just fed and housed him rly that we've seen
Depends on which translation you read. Some of them hint to it
@@buggymah Certainly in the text and some translations yes but I was talking specifically about in Epic
9:08 IK THAT SOUND FELT FIMILIAR NOW IK FROM WHERE, I love finding the motifies hehe
The bit your thinking of is from circe saga when eury goes to the temple and returns.
I feel like it ends on a happy note cause we’re narratively following Odysseus who is so fucking happy to be off that island, his prison
I know you’re doing the songs one at a time but I would recommend listening to get in the water right after Charybdis to get the full affect (I’m saying that in the best way possible without spoiling anything)
Hhehehhehe youre in for a treat, it was insane
Yessssssss
YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!
Also, I believe you were talking puppeteer. 8:36
Wait, is this for love in Paradise will be fine? I thought you already did those?
@@michaelavail3554 wronggg title thank youuu
Speaking of your tier list, why didn’t you ever release the final part?
this! I desperately need to know!
@@kojardine5746 wait I didn’t??? Oop….
@@FlippMusic no you did not :(
@ oof. I’ll post it. I have it made I must have forgot to send it
@@FlippMusic I mean, no worries at all! Like the reason we’re all here is for the chaotic energy :)
Could you do 2 songs per video for the next uploads?
In this it's probably a love like friendship not romantic
Odysseus is infamously an unreliable narrator in the Odyssey so we do not know the full extent of Calypso and his relationship. Homer does write that “Odysseus no longer cared for her” so it’s 100% possible he loved her and loved paradise but his love for Penelope eventually out grew his care for Calypso.
Seeing as in the original Odyssey it stated that he would spent every morning on the shore crying to himself I don't think he ever felt romantic love for the goddess or her paradise, but care doesn't mean romance so he may have cared for her as a friend for a short period of time which may be what Jorge is referencing in the song
You shouldn't pick and choose if you're going to reference the orignal source material. It's very explicitly stated in the odyssey that Calypso made him lie with her against his will, and that even as she tried to enchant him with her songs to forget about ithaca and live happily with her, he only wished to die. And not all of the references that what she did to him drive him to contemplating suicide are from parts of the Odyssey that are narrated by Odysseus, either.
@@akaittou all people pick and choose when referencing mythos, literature relies heavily on interpretation. Calypso in Homers version of the Epic is a progressive take on a woman calling out the hypocrisy of male gods and their treatment towards goddesses. Yes she was used to show a man at his “lowest” by being fully submitted to a woman while strength nor intellect can do a thing to save oneself, but that’s bc women in general were viewed pretty shittily in the times the mythos was at its peak culturally. I don’t care to view her in the way you do and that’s ok. It’s an oral based mythos, nearly all context the ancient Hellenes had is lost to us thankfully. It was a very primitive culture that we can learn a lot from while also using our modern context. If you’re passionate about male SA survivors, you do you and use this story to live your truth. Calypso is not real and to me she and Odysseus had a consensual relationship while they were both casted away from society by the Olympians. It seems Jorge is using a similar concept in his adaptation as the lyrics reflect her being banished and stranded as well.
Remember this is a different universe than the books. So don't think it's the same characters. SPOILERS In the book Odysseus sleeps with circe and later it In one of the different versions of the books their child accidentally kills him and marries Penelope so...yeah..
The telegony isn’t considered canon to the odyssey though. Also original Odysseus had to get circe to release his men and promise not to harm them further, so Jorge’s version sticks as close to myth as possible there while cutting out the coercion/dubious consent
@somethingthatexists4797 that's why I said in different versions
Please understand Claypso is not a villian most definitely not in this adaptation and i fucking hate when people can or choose not to forgive or understand but yet give people like posideon circe or even eurolycus a chance like wtf its not fair
Hell, people NEVERRR talk about Odysseus in the original Odyssey, he did some pretty shitty and fucked up stuff, even cheating on Penelope but when it comes to Calypso, everyone loves talking about her SA'ing Ody, even tho that doesn't happen in EPIC, it's truly strange
She is 1000% a villain in this version. Entirely excluding everything from the source material, and ONLY going by the explicit lines in the show without inferring ANY of the context given through music and what the lyrics suggest, she's still, quite possibly, one of the most heinous, most line real life, villains in the show.
1. She finds a man on her island, and immediately tries to initiate intimacy with him, before even leaning his name.
2. Finds out he is devoted to his WIFE, and continues to try to be intimate with him after he clearly, in the lyrics, says no.
3. Tells him no one can leave the island because of HER spell. I know I said I'd leave it implications, but we are left to understand she cannot leave because the gods imprisoned her there, but she tells Ody, through specific lines, that he cannot leave due to HER spell. So she could let him go to his wife, but she selfishly keeps him there, even when he begins to lose his mind.
4. He tries to kill himself, another implication, I know, but even after THAT, she still doesn't let him go, and continues to try to be intimate with him. Only when the gods show up and tell her he's gotta go, does she finally let up and give in.
5. After learning he can leave, she continues to try and convince him to stay, not by being nice, or telling him he can choose either, but by GUILTING HIM, she tries to make him feel bad by expressing her distress, and absolving herself entirely of blame for his captivity by claiming that he just couldn't handle the amount of love she had.
This is not a stretch, this is just literally looking at the lyrics and the story as a whole and understanding what is going on. Jay is trying to throw a line out there for male victims of abuse, and people continue to say, he's no victim, he can't be! You can't be a victim if the other person involved isn't a villain! But that's just not it. Calypso might not have killed 543 men in a single blow, but she's just a much a villain as poseidon of you just want to go by just the lyrics and what we have in the musical.
My guess is that what Calypso did (depending on how you interpret things and what version of the story you read) is unfortunately way more common for people to experience in everyday life vs a mass murderer or a witch who turns people into pigs or the level of betrayal Eurylochus did . There's a level of distance they can put between themselves and what the character had done. This is why people can like villains despite the terrible things they do. At the end of the day they're a fictional character.
Now when it comes to a character that is abusive, manipulative, or commits SA? Much less forgiving since it's unfortunately something many people will, and have experienced in their life, or know someone who has. Harder to sympathize or like a character who has done a terrible thing that was done to you or someone you love. Harder to see them as just a fictional character.
Hope that makes sense. I get the frustration, but it's understandable people will be less forgiving to those that remind them of their source of trauma.
@karutasilver All of this typing for speculation and not understanding the material being shown and sung to you is genuinely insane
@Irishxlily Calypso didn't do any of that, though. That's the point. THIS specific Calypso doesn't do anything to Ody and is explicit that the spell put on her keeps her there, and Zeus puts Ody there, trapping them together. She doesn't have the power to let someone leave. Otherwise, she would have left herself. She does not abuse or SA him and I highly doubt she manipulates him in this adaptation, as nothing is done to Ody.
It's completely different.