"Maybe a lot of the things he's wearing on him are to restrain him from going on a rampage." And just like that, Stan turned a generic drawing of some armored brute into a compelling character. What a creative mind.
Yes. Just that simple remark, comment. Blew me away at how much more his mind was thinking about the creative process. Todd & rob were just throwing shit together. Stan was looking at the same art & brought in an entirely different perspective. Fuckin genius. RIP Stan Lee.
@giftofgab247 And Call of Duty is one of the highest selling videogame franchises of all time. Does that make their "art" exceptional, well-written, thoughtful, etc?
@giftofgab247 Other how many it sold, which makes it a commercial success but doesn't necessarily mean it's "good", everything else art, writing, style is completely subjective. This is especially true when dealing with something that can be as niche as comics, that usually try to target certain demographics instead of mainstream appeal. That's the amazing thing about comic's, even with the same characters/story it can become something so completely different with different writers and artists, with different takes or views, at the helm. You can usually always find something you like but also find stuff you hate or think is just flat out bad. There's just stuff to fit anyone's tastes.
giftofgab247 1. Popularity =/= quality. 2. Why is not a good idea to compare comic books to games? Both are art forms which utilize a visual medium to tell a story. Some are good quality and many are terrible quality.
@@ThatFilmisGnarly and yet he actually used him in Spawn. And in animated series they just put him in shadows to not show how stupid that design is, which is the funniest thing.
plus the issue they were discussing was how does he GET INTO his costume when immediate trouble comes, and we've ALWAYS witness the superheroes getting into their costume; flash pops his ring, wondy does her twirl, and spidey, bats, and all the spandex population do what superman taught them...bust out the S.
There is beautiful bit of irony to the fact that Stan asks these two artists, wink, to create a character named overkill. Stan the original troll. Still doing it from beyond the grave with this video.
Amazing isn't it? There's a lot to unpack here, lol. Stan Lee low key criticizing how dumb a lot of their design choices are, Rob and Todd focusing too much on the extrememess of the character while Stan tries to remind them that he's supposed to be a hero, Todd constantly reminding us that he knows what "the kids like". This is a great time capsule. RIP Stan Lee
@Derek Magsanay ; Well that's what jokes are, they're for the surface. To reflect on the outside SOME kind of maturity and peace inside. They wouldn't even be able to joke if something deep was truly bothering them
"He lives out in Malibu. He's a beach bum" is the closest thing he has to a unique trait; judging from their descriptions of him. ...now I'm just picturing him surfing in that ridiculous getup. While constantly grimacing cause what other facial expression would he be making?
Here's an idea: He's a retired hero/mercenary. And the comic is about his retired life, him just doing ordinary things while looking like that. Like gardening, surfing, grocery shopping, in that grim look.
As much as people all like to say Stan is jabbing at their art, seeing the whole show it really just feels like 3 friends fucking around in front of a camera, it’s really quite wholesome. As much as Stan has issues with their character design skills, he still laughs along and has fun while they draw.
I kind of feel bad for Stan here. He made a career out of challenging the ideas of the comics of his time and now there he is, watching the next generation making a smoothie with the baby and the bathwater. At least he saw the birth of the THICC meme.
You know Stan Lee was thinking what the hell did they just created? Stan Lee is right a superhero characters need a background story and a personality.
Then again they only had like 20 minutes m, I'm sure if they had the correct amount of time they could have drawn a proper background, And I'm sure they could add a background and an amazing story to go along with it.
@@benkenobi5128 he means background story as in his origins. what is this “hero’s” motives? why does he choose to go out dressed like that to fight crime? what is he fighting for? stuff that humanizes the heroes because that’s what makes us love heroes like spiderman, iron man, etc.
It's almost painful to watch Stan lee break these two down but then I remember rob liefelds captain American with the chest like a night stand and mcfarlanes near fetish for chains. I remember how right he is
giftofgab247 Also, spawn was pretty bad (most image comics where) when he was first created. Ironic, considering that image is now the best comic company out there.
I agree with stan lee, the more classic heroes are timeless because they also have designs that are reasonable in an idea of combat and agility not just a fetish pile
I tried bringing that up to a friend's about old fantasy ttrpg art and now extremes like final fantasy... old art for a rogue or wizard was a simple garb most the time. Now fantasy art is so expunged from reality theres like no grounding for anything really. Overkill looks LACKING compared to armor in final fantasy where spikes and horns and all this elegance creating added weight realistically and being cumbersome... is perfectly normal
@@projectionreflection5475 I’d say that for all the fuck ups Todd and rob had, they did score some home runs. Spawn, venom, Deadpool (and to a degree cable) have pretty memorable designs. However those are stand outs. Most characters they made are garbage design wise.
@@elgatochurro It really depends on the artist, and a lot of old fantasy TTRPG art had a tendency for women to lack clothes. But outside the more mainstream names styles vary a lot, Ryuutama for instance is done in a very sketch-like style that can hide a surprising amount of detail on simply dressed folk (do they have a cravat? Is that satchel implied to hold books or a set of tools? Do they even have a weapon, and if so what? Is their garb patterned, or is it covered in pockets?). It's really worth looking at more indie stuff, there's no way I'd mistake an The Aether Sea character for one from Chuubo's Marvelous Wish Granting Engine (which is definitely fantasy).
At 23:04: "I wanna tighten those feet!" Rob Liefeld hears those words every time he has a nightmare. He was hoping to god that Stan wouldn't mention them. He then proceeds to draw a black spike on the ankle and doesn't touch the foot.
You have to love how Lee says he wants a hero but gives them the name Overkill. There is such beauty in that. It absolutely went over these two morons' heads because they fall right into the trap. Lee gave them an out with the hero part, but they just go right for what everyone knew they would go for. Overkill. Stan the Man Lee.
@@paulahaunt I think he THOUGHT he got the joke. Like, I get the feeling watching this that Todd picked up on the fact that Stan was low key roasting them, but didn't know exactly what he was roasting them for.
@@timmneeley4301 just looked it up and he changed the name to overt-kill, but most of the design is the same except he's 🤬 HUGE! It's cool to see his origin started here!
@Richard Black I guess it was because Overkill was still a hero in development stages (aka, this video) when Todd needed a new villain for his Spawn comic book series. So he was like, “Aight, I have an unreleased prototype character. Maybe I’ll use him.”
Love the subtle shade from Stan to Todd and Todd to Stan the entire time. "Overkill" sums up Stan's personal take on their style, with his endless digs at their huge over-costumed grim edgy characters while Todd reminds Stan at every opportunity that fans liked the flashier 90s style and DC comics exists.
Damn you can hear the tension in so much of this. Especially as Todd McFarlane grows more and more snappy with Stan Lee’s pretty reasonable questions. Like... he’s not even making fun of the character but he’s asking questions any creator would when presented with a new character. What’s he like? Where does he live? What does he do?
Image if there are two children talking about how radical chains are and the only reason why they read comics is because of or any media no chains? Not gonna watch/read/play it
For the amount of times Stan made the joke about owning this character, it sure didn't stop Todd from adding a T into the name and stealing it within the first 6 issues of SPAWN
I like Todd and Leifeld's art honestly - they're the equivalent of 80's action movies, pure sugar and nacho cheese. That being said though, they REALLY needed collaborators as Stan said, they have 0 eye for making compelling characters with interesting details/backstories.
What Stan described with Overkill is basically a PG-13 Punisher. Tough, but not violent. Rough, but still a hero. And this is what Todd and Rob came up with. Because they took the name and ran with it, without listening to Stan's notes. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing. But when Stan tried to habe them think of story beats, or background info, they didn't do jack shit. THAT was what Stan was trying to prove. Not that their art is shit (which it is, for the most part), but that they don't come up with characters. Story is secondary to what's on the cover. And that was proven in the first second, because the first thing Todd was draw the font for what would be the cover. He didn't think for a second, "who is this character and what kind of logo would fit him." He thought, "what looks the coolest." I mean, even Todd's SIGNATURE is over the top and ridiculous. Stan Lee was not a perfect man. Lord knows he's made mistakes. But he knew EXACTLY what he was doing here. And Rob and Todd had no idea what kind of booby trap Stan just laid at their feet.
I’m convinced that Stan didn’t create a single character it was all Kirby but since Stan was in the same city at the time of creation… “It’s obviously a collaboration… so I get the credit for this character.”
Yes, that was the joke that Stan made. But later he clarified that the artists made something better than he imagined and they've always gotten credit. Stan is just better talking about stuff in front of the public and to fans and I think Jack was shy, right? I've seen enough raw talks from Stan to know that he really had an exceptional expertise about superheroes, even showing up in documentaries about DC characters. And apparently, he was the one who wanted to bring Super Sentai to the west after seeing what the people who made Supaidaman (official Japanese Spider-Man) made afterwards.
@@BLASTER0913 No as we see in this video both of them did. Unless it’s a massive coincidence he was involved with the biggest franchise of all time. Plus people like Jack Kirby and JRSR aren’t known for their writing ability.
@@dante_0962 So. Stan was in a plane flying above the city where Kirby and Ditko created a character so therefore he also gets credit for the character. That’s how Stan was. A fraud. Took credit for everyone else’s work and ideas.
5:34 Todd's little rant about what scares him personally in a villain always fascinated me, because it's literally him describing Jason Wyn from the Spawn show and comics.
You can really tell that every single commenter on this video never watched this series. Stan Lee and Todd were very close to one another. In this series (comic book greats) Stan even says that Todd changed the way comic book art was done with depth and perspective.
That's good to hear. Its hard seeing people take sides between these three. They are legends in their own right. They paid their dues, their time in the sun is done. No need to paint them negatively.
There's even an episode where Stan Lee is just chilling with Todd and his wife. I think modern people are so used to incredibly passive behavior that seeing two friends going a bit harder than usual on the banter is "roasting" and "destroying" them.
@@Paugose That's very true. It's crazy cause that's how older generation showed there friendship, they would bust each other's balls for fun. The moment that banter stopped the relationship died.
The creator of Spider-Man, the creator of Deadpool and the creator of Spawn collaborating on a character. Now that's something, that you could only get to see in the 90s.
I know people are laughing at Stan's remark to Todd and Rob. But I can't stop thinking that Todd was one of the very last guy to see Stan Lee alive. On McFarlane's way out of the hospital or nursing home (don't recall it correctly), Stan told him something along the lines of "Thank you, Todd. Your visits bring me much more than any of these nurse treatment".
"Does he have a double identity? Is he really a meek accountant in real life?" Wow, I would totally read that. A thin dorky accountant turning into what he thinks is a cool edgy badass. Only he's still kinda dorky even with all that over the top edge lord trash.
As a kind from an abusive household in the 90s, Spawn was the coolest comic to me. I couldn't relate as much to marvel's more middle-class functional family comics.
That's crazy. Overt-Kill was a Spawn character, and I had an action figure of him way back in the day. Had no idea that this was basically the creation, and Todd just added a T to the name.
I think we're all glossing over the real star of the show here - Todd's canary yellow Mr. Rogers sweater. Though I like how Stan had to remind them to draw the feet.
The quality of the video just screams community cable channel. Like this was aired live on sunday at 8:30am. in Muskogee, Arkansas. True Believers. RIP Stan Lee.
Lee: We're gonna donate this drawing to charity. Liefeld and McFarlane: Good. Then, we're gonna get a movie deal, and it'll become the next teenage mutant ninja turtles, and we'll sue each other. The kids are gonna love us!
As a 17 year old I gotta say I never heard about them until I watch a bunch of comic book RUclipsrs talk about them. So yeah it’s like that one quote that Patrick once said… it didn’t work
@@bremensims6086 Jack's ego was bigger that Stan's, he not only said he created all the characters by himself (he didnt), he went as far as to say he created Spiderman, insulting Steve Ditko in the process.
Noooo Todd didn't use this character. This character is Overkill. Todd's character was Over*t*kill. Completely different. Ahh you gotta love Todd McFarlane.
As someone who really enjoys character design and the nuance that goes into it, this is really painful to watch. Leifeld and McFarlane completely avoided every question Stan asked about the character's nuance or backstory aside from "big edgy cyborg man" and just threw together a piecemeal of unattractive and nonsensical design elements they thought would be marketable. These two did not design a character, they slapped together a horrendous frankenstein's monster of everything wrong with comic books in the 90's. Hell, even Stan took every opportunity to roast these two while they were drawing their 12th clone of cable. I would give them the benefit of the doubt and chalk it up to the 20 minute time limit if not for the fact that pretty much every "character" they have ever designed was exactly like overkill.
Getting away from the ruthless methodical murder happening here, this really sounds like a fun challenge for artists/writers. What comes to your mind when you hear "Overkill"? Is it anything at all like what these two made? Should try this out with some friends...
20:58 this is what im impressive about stan lee. Despite his passive aggressive comments he still manage to give their character more personality that’s how he got his point across by giving impressing them and basically showing them that character creation is more important instead of gadgets.
"Oh don't bash the poor artists!" First, Rob Leifeld is an artist, but a poor one. I'm not saying technique, cus technically, his linework is ok, etc, but his research and referencing is shit. Second, this isn't just about them being artists, this is about being character creators. Sure, they're brainstorming, but Stan is trying to help them out with character development and they just ignore it.
You have Stan, a man who worked with the best artists in the world (including Jack freaking Kirby) co-creating the most popular comic book characters in history, seeing these two clowns not making a character, but making something that they could put on a cover, and knew little kids would buy because "it was cool". At least McFarlane says "kids like it", he knew what he was doing, but you can see Liefield was annoyed by Stan... Glad Stan Lee at least putted them in their place, pointing out how absurd the design was., and is actually funny how Stan, by just looking at this thing (21:00), actually though of a better background story for him that the two creators of it.
Why are people trying to cover for Rob Liefeld? His male and female characters are LITERALLY the same as each other: scowling, crumpled faces with little to no real eyes, gritting teeth openly almost 24/7, all super-jacked up (in both muscles AND proportions), pounches, guns, etc. His artwork is fucking ugly, quite frankly, and the only people backing his ass up are nostalgia-blinded from the 90's "EXTREEEEME" phase. Spawn and Deadpool are TWO creations of Image that came out okay, and Rob Liefeld isn't even RESPONSIBLE for making Deadpool as popular as he is. It was the work of OTHER writers.
Jonathan Sokolowski Because his style is not a good one to emulate. Very bizarre. horrid proportions, constant gritting of teeth and blank white eyes, overuse of pouches, obsession with guns, etc. Also, it was still Rob Liefeld who created Deadpool's appearance, and yet, it was other writers who made him a good character.
Dizzy Doom his style isnt the problem its what he thought the character should act like in main run. Most of his characters like this one are just power fantasies which made comics complete garbage for a while
It's an old(man) argument I been listenin to since the early 90's. It doesn't matter. Kids liked it. They boosted the appeal and market for comics when it needed the boost back then. They even dared to go it alone and do their own thing, which they got flack for in this video from Stan. Lighten up
It's a deflection of responsibility. It makes him look selfless while at the same time means it's not necessarily what he wants, but what "the kids" want. Really fucking obnoxious and transparent. In reality he doesn't give a fuck about what "the kids" want and these were his and rob's ideas alone.
I love these videos. Seeing the dynamics between Stan the publisher and Todd and Rob has creators is incredible. When you know the history that played out between them seeing this interaction gives a huge insight to the type of tensions that underline their relationships.
I know, this is classic, knowing the history. Reminds me of being on LSD with people a lot older and more experienced who were either jealous or plain did not like seeing me have my fun. The punishment and then a fluid witty retaliation that rolls off the tongue exactly when needed hehe
In some of the other videos from this series, Todd even mentions Image comics a couple times. As many times as Stan goes out of his way to take credit for co-creating this drawing, I'm surprised there wasn't a comment out of Stan about it
Stan Lee: "You have to justify all this paraphenalia -- The shoulderpads hold him back -- If he breaks loose from all these chains..." Hideki anno: "Uhhuh, this is great stuff, keep going."
One Punch Man’s King is pretty close to that concept, but his whole thing is looking threatening and intimidating on accident. so the reasons aren’t exactly unclear.
Liefeld's work first seemed cool--to kids who had no idea that his characters had way too many teeth, fucked up hands and feet, and funhouse-distortions in their proportions. I look back and I cringe. And what's with all the pouches? I also hate the day they scammed kids with their multiple covers. Disgusting .
Oh, so you go ahead and show your body of work, a successful company and a respectful place in the comic book industry, mister expert. I don’t see any amazing art on your page.
I love how Stan understands what matters about comics, he does not think of the superficial "cool" thing, instead he cares about what makes the character unique
Interesting to see how Overkill went into two separate franchises after this as both parties must have wanted to keep the character for their franchise in some way - Overt-kill in Spawn and Overkill (later Taserface) in Guardians of the Galaxy. Overt-kill looks almost exactly the same, shoulder pads and all. Taserface is first called Overkill in GotG #10 which came out in March '91, but his visual design is obviously different. Very interesting to see how characters are developed over time.
"Maybe a lot of the things he's wearing on him are to restrain him from going on a rampage."
And just like that, Stan turned a generic drawing of some armored brute into a compelling character. What a creative mind.
Yes. Just that simple remark, comment. Blew me away at how much more his mind was thinking about the creative process. Todd & rob were just throwing shit together. Stan was looking at the same art & brought in an entirely different perspective. Fuckin genius. RIP Stan Lee.
Lord knows Rob and Todd weren't going to come up with anything.
@giftofgab247 And Call of Duty is one of the highest selling videogame franchises of all time. Does that make their "art" exceptional, well-written, thoughtful, etc?
@giftofgab247 Other how many it sold, which makes it a commercial success but doesn't necessarily mean it's "good", everything else art, writing, style is completely subjective. This is especially true when dealing with something that can be as niche as comics, that usually try to target certain demographics instead of mainstream appeal.
That's the amazing thing about comic's, even with the same characters/story it can become something so completely different with different writers and artists, with different takes or views, at the helm. You can usually always find something you like but also find stuff you hate or think is just flat out bad. There's just stuff to fit anyone's tastes.
giftofgab247 1. Popularity =/= quality. 2. Why is not a good idea to compare comic books to games? Both are art forms which utilize a visual medium to tell a story. Some are good quality and many are terrible quality.
Stan, sarcastically: "Should he wear some more armour on his legs? Holsters?"
Rob, completely serious: "Yeah, I think so."
17:14
🤣
"I'm gonna put more gadgets up here, like some blasters or something. I dunno." Ladies and gentlemen, the Rob Liefeld creative process.
Needs more pouches and less feet.
to be fair, they were all taking the piss out of this. They even made fun of Overkill's generic name.
They just had some fun in 20 mins don't take it too seriously
@@ThatFilmisGnarly and yet he actually used him in Spawn. And in animated series they just put him in shadows to not show how stupid that design is, which is the funniest thing.
@@mikhaelgribkov4117 Liefeld created Deadpool. End of story.
"In comic book world, you don't see them getting dressed or going to the bathroom."
"You draw people getting dressed all the time. Especially women."
plus the issue they were discussing was how does he GET INTO his costume when immediate trouble comes, and we've ALWAYS witness the superheroes getting into their costume; flash pops his ring, wondy does her twirl, and spidey, bats, and all the spandex population do what superman taught them...bust out the S.
I absolutely love that line. It's such a small line but it's got so much behind it
Yeah, also the point isn't that you show it or not. The point is it needs to be believable that he can take it off and out it on
It's really fascinating how many times Stan tries to get these two to actually use their brains and actually think about WHO they're drawing.
and yet it never works
@@Actual-Knight oof
What you mean? They're drawing Overkill, the cyborg badass whos better than cable and DARKER
thats why modern marvel sucks these days, golden era is over
@No_guard_X these guys aren't Modern Marvel
The moment stan lee said they are gonna draw a character 'OVERKILL' I knew what stan lee is upto
And watch as Liefeld immediately starts drawing another fucking clone of Cable.
Hook line and sinker.
The passive aggressiveness is hilarious
Todd was looking at the front 🚪
Stan Lee is so savage. He told Liefeld that without shoulder pads his characters are naked. lol
There is beautiful bit of irony to the fact that Stan asks these two artists, wink, to create a character named overkill. Stan the original troll. Still doing it from beyond the grave with this video.
I got chills when Todd predicted that they'd fight over overkill in court. Amazing.
Amazing isn't it? There's a lot to unpack here, lol. Stan Lee low key criticizing how dumb a lot of their design choices are, Rob and Todd focusing too much on the extrememess of the character while Stan tries to remind them that he's supposed to be a hero, Todd constantly reminding us that he knows what "the kids like". This is a great time capsule. RIP Stan Lee
Derek Magsanay : they're joking around
@@paulpolpiboon9535 Yes, on the surface.
@Derek Magsanay ; Well that's what jokes are, they're for the surface. To reflect on the outside SOME kind of maturity and peace inside. They wouldn't even be able to joke if something deep was truly bothering them
@@paulpolpiboon9535 they are also in front of cameras so there's that.
"He lives out in Malibu. He's a beach bum" is the closest thing he has to a unique trait; judging from their descriptions of him.
...now I'm just picturing him surfing in that ridiculous getup. While constantly grimacing cause what other facial expression would he be making?
he removes all the armor, chains, and his giant ass shoulderpads, and hes just a super tan beach grandpa who wears floral shirts and board shorts
You can see what he became by looking up Overt-kill in Spawn or Overkill/Taserface in Guardians of the Galaxy.
Here's an idea: He's a retired hero/mercenary. And the comic is about his retired life, him just doing ordinary things while looking like that. Like gardening, surfing, grocery shopping, in that grim look.
You could have a scene with him playing volley ball while he has a dark monologue.
What you do in your free time overkill? 🗿: I like surfing!
This video is fucking comedy gold.
"...now if we could just finish that left leg..."
-Stan Lee.
SparkyPantsMcGee haha
I spat out my drink laughing at this comment 😂
Could hear his voice as I read it
Todd: I think he's just about perfect!
Jesus, Stan is absolutely ruthless. I love how at the end they both realized in fear that Stan said Overkill didn't have any fucking feet.
"Kids like chains". Truly a phrase for the ages.
As much as people all like to say Stan is jabbing at their art, seeing the whole show it really just feels like 3 friends fucking around in front of a camera, it’s really quite wholesome. As much as Stan has issues with their character design skills, he still laughs along and has fun while they draw.
Gees! This convo has more burns than the Spanish Inquisition...
And nobody expects the Spanish inquisition
Stanish inquisition.
@@slayertakim1 NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISTION
Idiots that don't know nothing about the Spanish Inquisition.
More Burns than Smithers wet dream...
"This guy is THICK!"
Oh, Rob.
I think you meant to spell it "THICC".
Rob was a man ahead of the times.
@@Phantom_of_Black i don't think it was a meme yet
“A Liefeld character without shoulder pads is almost naked” hahaha😂😂 priceless! Man I miss Stan 😓😢
13:55 "Comics are reality based" ...Liefeld completely ignores - "Hey I'm gonna put some wires around his leg"
That kills me.
“Cool lookin” the definition of ‘90s art.
🤢🤢🤮
😂
I kind of feel bad for Stan here. He made a career out of challenging the ideas of the comics of his time and now there he is, watching the next generation making a smoothie with the baby and the bathwater.
At least he saw the birth of the THICC meme.
@David H go play it n traffic
@@ddave7026 He ripped them off by coming up with all the ideas and then giving Kirby and Ditko full credit for their contributions?
A baby and bathwater smoothie? That worries me a bit.
Do you know anything about Image Comics?
Stan Lee: "Is he going to be able to move with all this stuff?"
"These are comic books man, you gotta suspend... Reality for a moment"
I love that he couldn't think of the word disbelief
You know Stan Lee was thinking what the hell did they just created? Stan Lee is right a superhero characters need a background story and a personality.
Right otherwise it's no better than superman in the 30s and the 40s when he had no weaknesses
Then again they only had like 20 minutes m, I'm sure if they had the correct amount of time they could have drawn a proper background, And I'm sure they could add a background and an amazing story to go along with it.
@@benkenobi5128 he means background story as in his origins. what is this “hero’s” motives? why does he choose to go out dressed like that to fight crime? what is he fighting for? stuff that humanizes the heroes because that’s what makes us love heroes like spiderman, iron man, etc.
18:22-18:30,"For the sake of our viewers is this really the type of thought process that goes through your head when you're making characters?" LOL
I fucking loved that!
It's almost painful to watch Stan lee break these two down but then I remember rob liefelds captain American with the chest like a night stand and mcfarlanes near fetish for chains. I remember how right he is
@giftofgab247 How much of that was because of quality art, vs. greedy speculators in the 90s comic book bubble.
@giftofgab247 I don't believe that the number of sales is a measure of quality.
giftofgab247
That popularity only lasted for like 2 years before the comic industry collapsed. I liked Todd’s drawings but liefield? No.
giftofgab247
Also, spawn was pretty bad (most image comics where) when he was first created. Ironic, considering that image is now the best comic company out there.
@giftofgab247 "sjw" there it is. You just wanna leer at misproportioned girls with no character depth. Gtfo
Oh my God are those...FEET...on that drawing?!?!
Keep in mind Stan told him to draw them.
@@Jose-se9puand that Todd had to draw them for Rob lol
"You can think and draw at the same time?"
Stan, please, murder is illegal.
I agree with stan lee, the more classic heroes are timeless because they also have designs that are reasonable in an idea of combat and agility not just a fetish pile
I tried bringing that up to a friend's about old fantasy ttrpg art and now extremes like final fantasy... old art for a rogue or wizard was a simple garb most the time.
Now fantasy art is so expunged from reality theres like no grounding for anything really.
Overkill looks LACKING compared to armor in final fantasy where spikes and horns and all this elegance creating added weight realistically and being cumbersome... is perfectly normal
Spawn is pretty damn memorable though
@@projectionreflection5475 Spawn is one lucky that was remember over thousand of forgoten copy based edgy heroes
@@projectionreflection5475
I’d say that for all the fuck ups Todd and rob had, they did score some home runs. Spawn, venom, Deadpool (and to a degree cable) have pretty memorable designs. However those are stand outs. Most characters they made are garbage design wise.
@@elgatochurro It really depends on the artist, and a lot of old fantasy TTRPG art had a tendency for women to lack clothes. But outside the more mainstream names styles vary a lot, Ryuutama for instance is done in a very sketch-like style that can hide a surprising amount of detail on simply dressed folk (do they have a cravat? Is that satchel implied to hold books or a set of tools? Do they even have a weapon, and if so what? Is their garb patterned, or is it covered in pockets?). It's really worth looking at more indie stuff, there's no way I'd mistake an The Aether Sea character for one from Chuubo's Marvelous Wish Granting Engine (which is definitely fantasy).
At 23:04: "I wanna tighten those feet!" Rob Liefeld hears those words every time he has a nightmare. He was hoping to god that Stan wouldn't mention them. He then proceeds to draw a black spike on the ankle and doesn't touch the foot.
You have to love how Lee says he wants a hero but gives them the name Overkill. There is such beauty in that. It absolutely went over these two morons' heads because they fall right into the trap. Lee gave them an out with the hero part, but they just go right for what everyone knew they would go for. Overkill. Stan the Man Lee.
He definitely did his homework and had some theories he wanted to test.
I think Todd got the joke. 10:11
@@paulahaunt I think he THOUGHT he got the joke. Like, I get the feeling watching this that Todd picked up on the fact that Stan was low key roasting them, but didn't know exactly what he was roasting them for.
Overkill is the most 90s superhero there ever was.
No lie Todd McFarlane later made him into a Spawn Villain
@@timmneeley4301 just looked it up and he changed the name to overt-kill, but most of the design is the same except he's 🤬 HUGE! It's cool to see his origin started here!
He's a villain wtf lol
@Richard Black
I guess it was because Overkill was still a hero in development stages (aka, this video) when Todd needed a new villain for his Spawn comic book series. So he was like, “Aight, I have an unreleased prototype character. Maybe I’ll use him.”
@@timmneeley4301 and started using him as a bit of a punching bag.
Love the subtle shade from Stan to Todd and Todd to Stan the entire time. "Overkill" sums up Stan's personal take on their style, with his endless digs at their huge over-costumed grim edgy characters while Todd reminds Stan at every opportunity that fans liked the flashier 90s style and DC comics exists.
It's amazing how they seemed to be joking about the ownership and lawyers and stuff, but turned out they were pretty serious.
Damn you can hear the tension in so much of this. Especially as Todd McFarlane grows more and more snappy with Stan Lee’s pretty reasonable questions. Like... he’s not even making fun of the character but he’s asking questions any creator would when presented with a new character. What’s he like? Where does he live? What does he do?
"The kids like chains."
No, no, I think YOU like chains, Todd.
"They seem to"
Hey results don't lie
Chains are very impractical to wear, I've got stuck in something so many times.
Image if there are two children talking about how radical chains are and the only reason why they read comics is because of or any media no chains? Not gonna watch/read/play it
Do you think they’re people who talk to kids they know?
They walked into the trap, didn't they?
They took the bait hook, line, and sinker. It's kind of miraculous.
Stan didn’t set up a trap, they set it up for themselves and he kept urging them to walk away
Specially with the name Overkill
Stan lee is the best. His comments are hysterical
Not really ..
Stan wants to make a character.
Todd and Rob want to make a product.
For the amount of times Stan made the joke about owning this character, it sure didn't stop Todd from adding a T into the name and stealing it within the first 6 issues of SPAWN
Overtkill is such an unwieldy name
stealing?
“Stealing” the character he invented.
I like Todd and Leifeld's art honestly - they're the equivalent of 80's action movies, pure sugar and nacho cheese. That being said though, they REALLY needed collaborators as Stan said, they have 0 eye for making compelling characters with interesting details/backstories.
@Noah zzstu Smith Liefeld hasn't learned how to draw feet (among many other things) in 30 fucking years, that's not a fine artist.
"no need to fight over it, it's obviously my creation"
And they got Stan Lee'd, just like Jack Kirby
Poor Jack Kirby
Stan was the co-creator of every single Marvel character Jack ever drawed.
Unlike Jack these two deserved it
@@Jose-se9pu The Eternals.
@@snakes3425 deserved? They created ther crappiest piece of shit ive seen... Korra is written better as a hero
What Stan described with Overkill is basically a PG-13 Punisher. Tough, but not violent. Rough, but still a hero.
And this is what Todd and Rob came up with. Because they took the name and ran with it, without listening to Stan's notes. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing. But when Stan tried to habe them think of story beats, or background info, they didn't do jack shit.
THAT was what Stan was trying to prove. Not that their art is shit (which it is, for the most part), but that they don't come up with characters. Story is secondary to what's on the cover.
And that was proven in the first second, because the first thing Todd was draw the font for what would be the cover. He didn't think for a second, "who is this character and what kind of logo would fit him." He thought, "what looks the coolest." I mean, even Todd's SIGNATURE is over the top and ridiculous.
Stan Lee was not a perfect man. Lord knows he's made mistakes. But he knew EXACTLY what he was doing here. And Rob and Todd had no idea what kind of booby trap Stan just laid at their feet.
Agreed. And it wasn't a booby trap. They ARE overkill
Liefeld forgot to add pouches
+Sheldon Cooper He didn't leave enough room on his "tank"
gskaloyan lol
HUH????
“It’s obviously my creation” basically Stan and Jack Kirby’s entire career together
I’m convinced that Stan didn’t create a single character it was all Kirby but since Stan was in the same city at the time of creation…
“It’s obviously a collaboration… so I get the credit for this character.”
@@BLASTER0913that’s honestly how people sound nowadays 😂
Yes, that was the joke that Stan made. But later he clarified that the artists made something better than he imagined and they've always gotten credit. Stan is just better talking about stuff in front of the public and to fans and I think Jack was shy, right? I've seen enough raw talks from Stan to know that he really had an exceptional expertise about superheroes, even showing up in documentaries about DC characters. And apparently, he was the one who wanted to bring Super Sentai to the west after seeing what the people who made Supaidaman (official Japanese Spider-Man) made afterwards.
@@BLASTER0913 No as we see in this video both of them did. Unless it’s a massive coincidence he was involved with the biggest franchise of all time. Plus people like Jack Kirby and JRSR aren’t known for their writing ability.
@@dante_0962
So.
Stan was in a plane flying above the city where Kirby and Ditko created a character so therefore he also gets credit for the character.
That’s how Stan was.
A fraud.
Took credit for everyone else’s work and ideas.
5:34 Todd's little rant about what scares him personally in a villain always fascinated me, because it's literally him describing Jason Wyn from the Spawn show and comics.
Stan: His name is Overkill, so I want you to make him tough and gritty.
Todd and Rob: Let's make him thicc.
You can really tell that every single commenter on this video never watched this series. Stan Lee and Todd were very close to one another. In this series (comic book greats) Stan even says that Todd changed the way comic book art was done with depth and perspective.
That's good to hear. Its hard seeing people take sides between these three. They are legends in their own right. They paid their dues, their time in the sun is done. No need to paint them negatively.
There's even an episode where Stan Lee is just chilling with Todd and his wife.
I think modern people are so used to incredibly passive behavior that seeing two friends going a bit harder than usual on the banter is "roasting" and "destroying" them.
@@Paugose That's very true. It's crazy cause that's how older generation showed there friendship, they would bust each other's balls for fun. The moment that banter stopped the relationship died.
todd mcfarlane "he's gotta be a guy, he's gotta be huge" literally the only two things in your drawing vocabulary
And shoulder pads, don’t forget pouches either
That doesn’t sound like a compliment
The creator of Spider-Man, the creator of Deadpool and the creator of Spawn collaborating on a character. Now that's something, that you could only get to see in the 90s.
"He's tough, but he's not violent"
they laughed. I can confidently say that wasn't a joke.
I know people are laughing at Stan's remark to Todd and Rob. But I can't stop thinking that Todd was one of the very last guy to see Stan Lee alive. On McFarlane's way out of the hospital or nursing home (don't recall it correctly), Stan told him something along the lines of "Thank you, Todd. Your visits bring me much more than any of these nurse treatment".
The kids love chains
manbearpigneil84 ...and whips too!
and pouches
They dont like feet though...
@@JD-ud9qt If only Rob Liefeld had practiced harder...
@@JD-ud9qt *Quinton Tarantino has entered the chat*
"Does he have a double identity? Is he really a meek accountant in real life?"
Wow, I would totally read that. A thin dorky accountant turning into what he thinks is a cool edgy badass. Only he's still kinda dorky even with all that over the top edge lord trash.
That’s just Duke Nukem
Take a shot every time Todd says "The kids will love it" or "The kids love X"
congratulations, this comment killed me
And Todd love kids
Todd: guys I just thought of a new superhero…. X chains like I’m going to exchange my fist to your face, because children love chains
"A Liefeld character without shoulder pads is almost naked" LMAO.
Laughing so hard that they weren't going to draw his feet until Stan told them to do so.
RIP Stan. Great sense of humor and a complete savage at times.
26:39 "You guys have ruined us, we've decided to give up comics and we're going into show bizz".......Witnessed Stan inventing the MCU
he has nothing to do with creating mcu
@@oldcowbb he tried to make marvel movies decades before X-men and Spider-man
As a kind from an abusive household in the 90s, Spawn was the coolest comic to me. I couldn't relate as much to marvel's more middle-class functional family comics.
That's crazy. Overt-Kill was a Spawn character, and I had an action figure of him way back in the day. Had no idea that this was basically the creation, and Todd just added a T to the name.
Rob wants shoulder pads, Tod wants chains, Stan claims ownership after thinking of the name 🤓
I think we're all glossing over the real star of the show here - Todd's canary yellow Mr. Rogers sweater.
Though I like how Stan had to remind them to draw the feet.
The quality of the video just screams community cable channel. Like this was aired live on sunday at 8:30am. in Muskogee, Arkansas. True Believers. RIP Stan Lee.
Lee: We're gonna donate this drawing to charity.
Liefeld and McFarlane: Good. Then, we're gonna get a movie deal, and it'll become the next teenage mutant ninja turtles, and we'll sue each other. The kids are gonna love us!
As a 17 year old I gotta say I never heard about them until I watch a bunch of comic book RUclipsrs talk about them. So yeah it’s like that one quote that Patrick once said… it didn’t work
Fun watching Todd and Stans inflated egos battle each other
What the fuck are you talking about? Your jealousy is sickening
@@brentshira3373 Jack Kirby would like to politely disagree
@@bremensims6086 Jack's ego was bigger that Stan's, he not only said he created all the characters by himself (he didnt), he went as far as to say he created Spiderman, insulting Steve Ditko in the process.
@@Jose-se9pu Jack Kirby would like to politely disagree
All the jokes about copyrights lol and Todd actually used this character! classic!
Noooo Todd didn't use this character. This character is Overkill. Todd's character was Over*t*kill. Completely different.
Ahh you gotta love Todd McFarlane.
the michael bay of comic books = rob liefeld.
As someone who really enjoys character design and the nuance that goes into it, this is really painful to watch. Leifeld and McFarlane completely avoided every question Stan asked about the character's nuance or backstory aside from "big edgy cyborg man" and just threw together a piecemeal of unattractive and nonsensical design elements they thought would be marketable. These two did not design a character, they slapped together a horrendous frankenstein's monster of everything wrong with comic books in the 90's. Hell, even Stan took every opportunity to roast these two while they were drawing their 12th clone of cable. I would give them the benefit of the doubt and chalk it up to the 20 minute time limit if not for the fact that pretty much every "character" they have ever designed was exactly like overkill.
...they had 20 minutes.
Cactusman129 Todd later used this character with the name OVERTKILL in spawn
Thats a bitter
Lets see your character designs which are so original and so cool
Justin Cissell Ive seen kids drawings with beter designs...
god McFarlane joking about "haha we'll be in court years later arguing over the rights! (8:30)" aged super horribly
How nice of stan Lee to take the time to hang out with children trying to get into comics!
"The kids like chains!" lol
To be fair, bikers were popular among the teenagers from 90s
Getting away from the ruthless methodical murder happening here, this really sounds like a fun challenge for artists/writers.
What comes to your mind when you hear "Overkill"? Is it anything at all like what these two made?
Should try this out with some friends...
To me sounds like someone is over killing like they don’t want to kill anymore and wants to do things more peacefully.
"You can draw and think at the same time?" God Stan Lee is killing me here.
20:58 this is what im impressive about stan lee. Despite his passive aggressive comments he still manage to give their character more personality that’s how he got his point across by giving impressing them and basically showing them that character creation is more important instead of gadgets.
"Oh don't bash the poor artists!" First, Rob Leifeld is an artist, but a poor one. I'm not saying technique, cus technically, his linework is ok, etc, but his research and referencing is shit. Second, this isn't just about them being artists, this is about being character creators. Sure, they're brainstorming, but Stan is trying to help them out with character development and they just ignore it.
The amount of shade Stan throws in this is hilarious!
_"This is the first-time these guys have heard OverKill."_
No Stan, I dont think that's true at all.
“He shoots through his chest?” Lol love the tone when stan said that
You have Stan, a man who worked with the best artists in the world (including Jack freaking Kirby) co-creating the most popular comic book characters in history, seeing these two clowns not making a character, but making something that they could put on a cover, and knew little kids would buy because "it was cool".
At least McFarlane says "kids like it", he knew what he was doing, but you can see Liefield was annoyed by Stan...
Glad Stan Lee at least putted them in their place, pointing out how absurd the design was., and is actually funny how Stan, by just looking at this thing (21:00), actually though of a better background story for him that the two creators of it.
"legs are important", so are feet, Rob 😂🙈
Stan hits the nail on the head when he talks about robs way of doing characters haha
I mean, to be fair, the character really does fit the name
The video should be titled Stan Lee trolls Todd McFarlane & Rob Liefeld for 30 min lol
“A lifeld character without shoulder pads is almost naked “ I know why Stanlee modeled Spider-Man after himself he’s hilarious
Todd: “He needs a cape like three times the length of his body! Ooo, and one boot needs to be freakishly larger than the other one!”
Why are people trying to cover for Rob Liefeld? His male and female characters are LITERALLY the same as each other: scowling, crumpled faces with little to no real eyes, gritting teeth openly almost 24/7, all super-jacked up (in both muscles AND proportions), pounches, guns, etc. His artwork is fucking ugly, quite frankly, and the only people backing his ass up are nostalgia-blinded from the 90's "EXTREEEEME" phase. Spawn and Deadpool are TWO creations of Image that came out okay, and Rob Liefeld isn't even RESPONSIBLE for making Deadpool as popular as he is. It was the work of OTHER writers.
Jonathan Sokolowski Because his style is not a good one to emulate. Very bizarre. horrid proportions, constant gritting of teeth and blank white eyes, overuse of pouches, obsession with guns, etc.
Also, it was still Rob Liefeld who created Deadpool's appearance, and yet, it was other writers who made him a good character.
Dizzy Doom his style isnt the problem its what he thought the character should act like in main run. Most of his characters like this one are just power fantasies which made comics complete garbage for a while
XxBeastlyGodxX Which is why I resent his style, not only in his artwork but in his writing. It all screams of excess, with no substance.
It's an old(man) argument I been listenin to since the early 90's. It doesn't matter. Kids liked it. They boosted the appeal and market for comics when it needed the boost back then. They even dared to go it alone and do their own thing, which they got flack for in this video from Stan. Lighten up
He reinvented the way the xmen costumers where vs the original corny look . He also make cable
Can he stop saying "the kids" every 5 sentences.
I'm only 30, and yet lately I've been finding myself saying that a lot lately. God, I feel old.
You ARE old
It's a deflection of responsibility. It makes him look selfless while at the same time means it's not necessarily what he wants, but what "the kids" want. Really fucking obnoxious and transparent. In reality he doesn't give a fuck about what "the kids" want and these were his and rob's ideas alone.
@@MakoHazard nah, it's Stan's, either way its crap
@@MakoHazard You're taking something fun and turning it into negativity. Get out of here with that.
I love these videos. Seeing the dynamics between Stan the publisher and Todd and Rob has creators is incredible. When you know the history that played out between them seeing this interaction gives a huge insight to the type of tensions that underline their relationships.
I know, this is classic, knowing the history. Reminds me of being on LSD with people a lot older and more experienced who were either jealous or plain did not like seeing me have my fun. The punishment and then a fluid witty retaliation that rolls off the tongue exactly when needed hehe
Kit Zoey Umm..... yeah.
It just like that.
In some of the other videos from this series, Todd even mentions Image comics a couple times. As many times as Stan goes out of his way to take credit for co-creating this drawing, I'm surprised there wasn't a comment out of Stan about it
hahahahaha@@kevarosenberg
Stan Lee: "You have to justify all this paraphenalia -- The shoulderpads hold him back -- If he breaks loose from all these chains..."
Hideki anno: "Uhhuh, this is great stuff, keep going."
1:05 I love that quiet laugh in the back. XD
I would read a comic about a character called Overkill, but it's a skinny naked guy and everyone is terrified of him for reasons unclear.
One Punch Man’s King is pretty close to that concept, but his whole thing is looking threatening and intimidating on accident. so the reasons aren’t exactly unclear.
Overkill died in Infinity War
Spawn killed him
Yay
God.. Todd's laugh
Mate, I'm spewin' every time. 'Hegh hegh hegh hegh' hahahaha
Alex B I know lol. "Hu hew hu hew hu hew"
I think when God was creating him, he accidentally put a goose voice box in and didn’t realise until it was to late.
"I'm not trying to put you on the spot, but I'm just trying to put you on the spot.
"Overtkill! Some call him Overkill" straight out of the book.
Liefeld's work first seemed cool--to kids who had no idea that his characters had way too many teeth, fucked up hands and feet, and funhouse-distortions in their proportions. I look back and I cringe. And what's with all the pouches? I also hate the day they scammed kids with their multiple covers. Disgusting .
Oh, so you go ahead and show your body of work, a successful company and a respectful place in the comic book industry, mister expert. I don’t see any amazing art on your page.
@@IGRETRO I'm sure Rob appreciates you defending him over an 8 year old comment
I love how Stan understands what matters about comics, he does not think of the superficial "cool" thing, instead he cares about what makes the character unique
Interesting to see how Overkill went into two separate franchises after this as both parties must have wanted to keep the character for their franchise in some way - Overt-kill in Spawn and Overkill (later Taserface) in Guardians of the Galaxy. Overt-kill looks almost exactly the same, shoulder pads and all. Taserface is first called Overkill in GotG #10 which came out in March '91, but his visual design is obviously different. Very interesting to see how characters are developed over time.
Stan is the man. Rob and Todd are still among my favorite artist to this day.
"Stan, you're 91? You don't look a day over 89!"