Based on what I've found, the conditions they are stored in are much more important. If it's in a hot, light, or humid place it will kill probably any blu ray. So store them in a cool, dark, dry place. On top of that burn them as slow as possible with error correction using a high quality writer. If you use well made Sony/Verbatim discs that should be plenty. Then store them in a water proof storage container/binder with a silica gel packet and that should probably last you a hundred years
That's a well thought out conclusion, Daniel. I know you've been with this for a while (reddit discussions etc). I totally agree with your line of thought here. Thanks!
Hey Daniel thanks a lot for sharing your research and practice! I will follow your lead, I think it makes sense what you are saying. Is there perhaps a blu ray burner you would recommend?
The recording layer in regular HTL BD-R discs is a combination of metal oxides. Also regular BD-R 25GB discs you get now a days are all HTL you can know this after burning the Blu Ray Disc if you look at the burning side of the disc under day light (just tilt it) the burnt surface will look non reflective or dull compared to the reflective surface of unburnt section on the disc or an unburnt new disc. So yes regular BD-R 25GB Discs or any brands (CMC sourced) are good for long term data Archival, However when sold as M-Disc those discs come with additional warranty post recording media on them (in case of failure) where regular BD-R discs don't come with any warranty as such other than manufacturing defect.
I've been using 2 external HDDs with full backups, and a partial backup of the most important files on DVD. I filled up 4 DVDs with that initial backup, and over a few years I add new files to additional disks. Since DVD storage capacity is so limited I've been looking at Blu-rays as an alternative, but I've seen conflicting info on how reliable Blu-rays are. One thing that made me pause is that apparently even though Blu-ray disks are optical, something about the way they save data makes that data potentially vulnerable to electromagnetic fields. Meaning they have a similar vulnerability to HDDs. I'm really not sure whether it's worth it to use Blu-ray if that's true, or just to stick with DVDs (and maybe just use more of them) because data on DVDs will apparently survive things that can wipe data from HDDs and Blu-ray (maybe, like I said there seems to be mixed info on whether BD can be affected by EM or not).
as far as I know no forms of optical media are vulnerable to emp attacks. And I'm pretty sure theres no magnetism involved like the other optical types. Blu ray lasers are more exact and create smaller pits which equals greater storage capacity.
@@danielontech That's what I thought too, but I was specifically looking at options that unlike HDDs won't lose data to EM fields. And Blu-ray disks were not included in most of those lists.
found this channel because recently a large retailer here is dumping all their BD 25gb 25pack stock for $0.73 , thats 2 cent per disc, or 0,001 per GB, aka 1 dollar per terabyte? if my math is correct so yeah blu-ray can still be an option especially if you find good deals or sales, BD at one point was actually cheaper per $ than HDDs until those cheap 8TBs flooded the market. but i always loved dealing with bluray CDs so i always look for a good deal every now and then
Digital preservation has 1 axiom, which is "one copy is no copy". 2 minimum, 3 recommended is the amount of copies to make, storing them at different locations, at least 1 in the cloud and 1 local physical. As long as you comply with that and keep the technology you use readable, the format used is not that important. But the fact is optical media is (at least in my knowledge) seldom used in archival tasks.
Is there not a higher chance of data being preserved should a media last 1000 years vs. 100 years? If something can last 10x longer, then is it not also reasonable to consider the 1000 year discs to more more hardy and more impervious to environmental factors than those discs which are 50 years or 100 years?
It seems logical to me also that that would be the case. But I also agree with a lot of people that the marketing from Verbatim has been... a little suspicious. The Mdisc seems to have quietly shifted from being a 1,000 year storage medium to being good for "several hundred years" at the swipe of a key. That's a 70% decrease in expected longevity without any explanation being offered as to how and why the figure has been so drastically changed. If they were to release a head to head accelerated aging comparison between the two products that would settle things. But as they don't seem inclined to actually produce the data to back the claims ... I'm definitely feeling more and more dubious. Not just about the product, but also about their integrity and trustworthiness as a manufacturer.
@@z352kdaf8324They are plentiful unlike the average tape drive... and it is easy enough to buy a few and keep them in boxes (as new). I can still buy compact cassette players, and use my software from the 1980s, and I'm sure that will still be the case in ten more years.
@@z352kdaf8324 His point is that aging speed depends from environmental factors, so 1000 years in perfect conditions can translate to still more than 100 years in bad conditions, while a 100 years in perfect conditions might not make it 20 years in the same bad conditions
My feeling is telling me that as long as you don’t engrave your data into granite or alabaster, there’s nothing that will last much longer then a human lifespan. Or am I just old and sad maybe.
Magnetic tape is still a gold standard compared to every other technology available... but it will still depolarize after 40 years. I would even say, if something catastrophic occurred... say a major solar flare (similar to what happened in the 1860's) the data could be wiped out if it wasn't stored deep in some container. The M-Disc does not have any of these effects.... To me, I can see the concept of the MDisc lasting a long time, but it is 'somewhat' plastic based and will not exist in a working state longer than 100 years, so I think that is marketing hype. But if kept in an environmentally neutral place, I would trust M-Disc for 50 years, i wouldn't say the same for Tape. ***SIde Note, there are Floppy discs 5 1/2 that were written in the early 80's that still 'appear' to work fine... but if it was stored improperly they are damaged or wiped... so Magnetic tape 'could' last under best circumstances 50 or so years, but not guaranteed. M_Disc unless its physically damaged is almost a total certainty in comparison. I'd trust 2 M-Disc copies over 10 Magnetic Tapes anyday.
@@Have.An.AmicoDay That's because floppies had very "big bits" because of imperfect early technology, it's similar how in old vs new HDDs, density improves, but reliability decreases, the early 80GB ones were reliable as tanks, could work 10-15 years 24/7, let alone as cold storage, but new 12-16TB with SMR, I wouldn't trust them as a sole archival medium. Other than that I agree, I think magnetic tape is less reliable than good single layer BR CD.
Not sure about the Verbatim specifically (I would guess no TBH). But you can find products on Amazon Japan that are specifically made in Japan (it's marketed as a sign of quality). The Panasonic Blu Ray media (which is a bit pricier) jumps to mind as one example.
Verbatim disks made in japan have a rainbow of colors on the box and have the Mitsubishi logo and "Mitsubishi" or "Mitsubishi Chemical Media" or "Mitsubishi Kagaku Media" (in english letters, it's a trademark) on the box. And of course japanese characters for everything else. His spindle does not look like that so who knows
I think it's more about preserving digital data in cold storage for a "decent" amount of time. "Decent" for more people probably meaning "Until a successor technology" (for cold storage) comes along. 100 years is simply a nice figure because (to be morbid, my opinion again) it's a little longer than your average human can expect to live in a developed country. If you know that your cold storage/archival data is good for a century ... you've got a decent amount of leeway to manage that archival pool going forward.
I have stuff that's 100+ years old at home that I treasure greatly. Paintings and photographs by my great grandparents for example. Sure a lot of the junk on my drives I'd prefer if it died with me, but there's also a lot that people might treasure when I'm gone.
Photographs and videos of the contemporary period. Books, journals, etc. Historians use these things to help reconstruct a period through content. The channel Townsends does this with cookbooks and journals, for example. Occasionally the 'official' copies are lost, but more copies means more options. We also live in a dystopian time where people try to memory hole things. You never know what will be considered extreme or controversial in a following year. I have a collection of such things from torrenting over the years and occasionally friends will mention a thing they can't get anymore that I have in my archives. We live in strange times.
Cultural type stuff. Images, books, video games, etc. We have lost a lot to time and war. There are those who look to preserve these cultural things for generations to come.
currently available m-discs from verbatim are NOT the same as what the OG Milleniata blu ray m-disc was the color of the disc is not the same, the ID is not the same and there aren't really much information from Verbatim about that the situation regarding m-disc is quite sketchy
Some quick Amazoning suggests that a 1TB HDD costs the same as a 50 pack of 25GB blu rays from verbatim. HDD's are also rewritable and subject to mechanical faults.
@@eldrago19 theres cheaper ways to get drives, like shucking them from like WD elements drives. i got some on discount and a 14tb drive cost only 200$. inside these they have a regular drive, other than a small difference on power pins where you need some electrical tape on one of them.
Based on what I've found, the conditions they are stored in are much more important. If it's in a hot, light, or humid place it will kill probably any blu ray. So store them in a cool, dark, dry place. On top of that burn them as slow as possible with error correction using a high quality writer. If you use well made Sony/Verbatim discs that should be plenty. Then store them in a water proof storage container/binder with a silica gel packet and that should probably last you a hundred years
That's a well thought out conclusion, Daniel. I know you've been with this for a while (reddit discussions etc). I totally agree with your line of thought here. Thanks!
I am using BDRs myself for archiving as well. It is dependable and no malware can affect the data once written.
Preserved malware?
Do you think extra layers adds a point of failure? ie would the basic 25Gb BD last longer than the 50, 100. 128Gb ones?
Hey Daniel thanks a lot for sharing your research and practice! I will follow your lead, I think it makes sense what you are saying. Is there perhaps a blu ray burner you would recommend?
The recording layer in regular HTL BD-R discs is a combination of metal oxides. Also regular BD-R 25GB discs you get now a days are all HTL you can know this after burning the Blu Ray Disc if you look at the burning side of the disc under day light (just tilt it) the burnt surface will look non reflective or dull compared to the reflective surface of unburnt section on the disc or an unburnt new disc. So yes regular BD-R 25GB Discs or any brands (CMC sourced) are good for long term data Archival, However when sold as M-Disc those discs come with additional warranty post recording media on them (in case of failure) where regular BD-R discs don't come with any warranty as such other than manufacturing defect.
Is the warranty to replace the $5 disc?
I've been using 2 external HDDs with full backups, and a partial backup of the most important files on DVD. I filled up 4 DVDs with that initial backup, and over a few years I add new files to additional disks.
Since DVD storage capacity is so limited I've been looking at Blu-rays as an alternative, but I've seen conflicting info on how reliable Blu-rays are. One thing that made me pause is that apparently even though Blu-ray disks are optical, something about the way they save data makes that data potentially vulnerable to electromagnetic fields. Meaning they have a similar vulnerability to HDDs. I'm really not sure whether it's worth it to use Blu-ray if that's true, or just to stick with DVDs (and maybe just use more of them) because data on DVDs will apparently survive things that can wipe data from HDDs and Blu-ray (maybe, like I said there seems to be mixed info on whether BD can be affected by EM or not).
as far as I know no forms of optical media are vulnerable to emp attacks. And I'm pretty sure theres no magnetism involved like the other optical types. Blu ray lasers are more exact and create smaller pits which equals greater storage capacity.
@@danielontech That's what I thought too, but I was specifically looking at options that unlike HDDs won't lose data to EM fields. And Blu-ray disks were not included in most of those lists.
found this channel because recently a large retailer here is dumping all their BD 25gb 25pack stock for $0.73 , thats 2 cent per disc, or 0,001 per GB, aka 1 dollar per terabyte? if my math is correct
so yeah blu-ray can still be an option especially if you find good deals or sales, BD at one point was actually cheaper per $ than HDDs until those cheap 8TBs flooded the market. but i always loved dealing with bluray CDs so i always look for a good deal every now and then
Digital preservation has 1 axiom, which is "one copy is no copy". 2 minimum, 3 recommended is the amount of copies to make, storing them at different locations, at least 1 in the cloud and 1 local physical.
As long as you comply with that and keep the technology you use readable, the format used is not that important. But the fact is optical media is (at least in my knowledge) seldom used in archival tasks.
I would say 2 different brands on 2 different medias and an yearly scrub
thanks for this info,,,I was almost fooled by the cheap blank bd...I thought the price difference was because of import fee and all
Varbatim still claims 1000 years for the M disc on their website
Is there not a higher chance of data being preserved should a media last 1000 years vs. 100 years?
If something can last 10x longer, then is it not also reasonable to consider the 1000 year discs to more more hardy and more impervious to environmental factors than those discs which are 50 years or 100 years?
It seems logical to me also that that would be the case. But I also agree with a lot of people that the marketing from Verbatim has been... a little suspicious. The Mdisc seems to have quietly shifted from being a 1,000 year storage medium to being good for "several hundred years" at the swipe of a key. That's a 70% decrease in expected longevity without any explanation being offered as to how and why the figure has been so drastically changed. If they were to release a head to head accelerated aging comparison between the two products that would settle things. But as they don't seem inclined to actually produce the data to back the claims ... I'm definitely feeling more and more dubious. Not just about the product, but also about their integrity and trustworthiness as a manufacturer.
Good luck finding a working Blu-ray drive in 50 years
@@z352kdaf8324They are plentiful unlike the average tape drive... and it is easy enough to buy a few and keep them in boxes (as new).
I can still buy compact cassette players, and use my software from the 1980s, and I'm sure that will still be the case in ten more years.
@@z352kdaf8324 His point is that aging speed depends from environmental factors, so 1000 years in perfect conditions can translate to still more than 100 years in bad conditions, while a 100 years in perfect conditions might not make it 20 years in the same bad conditions
@marcogenovesi8570 my point is you won't be able to read it because there won't be and blu ray players then
Is magnetic tape not still the golden standard for longevity?
My feeling is telling me that as long as you don’t engrave your data into granite or alabaster, there’s nothing that will last much longer then a human lifespan. Or am I just old and sad maybe.
@@AOKONE You can sometimes get lucky by writing it out on good paper and sealing it up in a jar somewhere out in the middle of a desert too.
@@Name-ot3xw
Hahaha!
Yeah, so very true.
Magnetic tape is still a gold standard compared to every other technology available... but it will still depolarize after 40 years. I would even say, if something catastrophic occurred... say a major solar flare (similar to what happened in the 1860's) the data could be wiped out if it wasn't stored deep in some container. The M-Disc does not have any of these effects.... To me, I can see the concept of the MDisc lasting a long time, but it is 'somewhat' plastic based and will not exist in a working state longer than 100 years, so I think that is marketing hype. But if kept in an environmentally neutral place, I would trust M-Disc for 50 years, i wouldn't say the same for Tape. ***SIde Note, there are Floppy discs 5 1/2 that were written in the early 80's that still 'appear' to work fine... but if it was stored improperly they are damaged or wiped... so Magnetic tape 'could' last under best circumstances 50 or so years, but not guaranteed. M_Disc unless its physically damaged is almost a total certainty in comparison. I'd trust 2 M-Disc copies over 10 Magnetic Tapes anyday.
@@Have.An.AmicoDay That's because floppies had very "big bits" because of imperfect early technology, it's similar how in old vs new HDDs, density improves, but reliability decreases, the early 80GB ones were reliable as tanks, could work 10-15 years 24/7, let alone as cold storage, but new 12-16TB with SMR, I wouldn't trust them as a sole archival medium. Other than that I agree, I think magnetic tape is less reliable than good single layer BR CD.
Where does the metal ablate to? I wonder if that stuff will clog up the player?
i think it would have to be trapped inside the plastic of the disk, because there's nowhere else for it to go
From my own research, I have basically come to the exact same conclusion.
Honestly I hate people that don’t tell what the conclusion is but they mention it.
Why? You're supposed to watch the video.
Hi Daniel, so are those Verbatim actually made in Japan?
Not sure about the Verbatim specifically (I would guess no TBH). But you can find products on Amazon Japan that are specifically made in Japan (it's marketed as a sign of quality). The Panasonic Blu Ray media (which is a bit pricier) jumps to mind as one example.
Verbatim disks made in japan have a rainbow of colors on the box and have the Mitsubishi logo and "Mitsubishi" or "Mitsubishi Chemical Media" or "Mitsubishi Kagaku Media" (in english letters, it's a trademark) on the box. And of course japanese characters for everything else.
His spindle does not look like that so who knows
Parchment is your only man. ps Seemingly, tech market wise, Japan is on another planet.
Yes! They seem extremely forward thinking in many respects. Would absolutely love to visit some day!
What is so important that would still be relevant in 100 years
I think it's more about preserving digital data in cold storage for a "decent" amount of time. "Decent" for more people probably meaning "Until a successor technology" (for cold storage) comes along. 100 years is simply a nice figure because (to be morbid, my opinion again) it's a little longer than your average human can expect to live in a developed country. If you know that your cold storage/archival data is good for a century ... you've got a decent amount of leeway to manage that archival pool going forward.
I have stuff that's 100+ years old at home that I treasure greatly. Paintings and photographs by my great grandparents for example. Sure a lot of the junk on my drives I'd prefer if it died with me, but there's also a lot that people might treasure when I'm gone.
Photographs and videos of the contemporary period. Books, journals, etc. Historians use these things to help reconstruct a period through content.
The channel Townsends does this with cookbooks and journals, for example. Occasionally the 'official' copies are lost, but more copies means more options.
We also live in a dystopian time where people try to memory hole things. You never know what will be considered extreme or controversial in a following year. I have a collection of such things from torrenting over the years and occasionally friends will mention a thing they can't get anymore that I have in my archives.
We live in strange times.
Cultural type stuff. Images, books, video games, etc. We have lost a lot to time and war. There are those who look to preserve these cultural things for generations to come.
i use the smartbuy ones(25GB) because they are the cheapest.
20 dollars for 50 of them
currently available m-discs from verbatim are NOT the same as what the OG Milleniata blu ray m-disc was
the color of the disc is not the same, the ID is not the same and there aren't really much information from Verbatim about that the situation regarding m-disc is quite sketchy
why not just buy hard drives. it would be cheaper and you won't have to dig up some disc to get your data when its needed.
Some quick Amazoning suggests that a 1TB HDD costs the same as a 50 pack of 25GB blu rays from verbatim. HDD's are also rewritable and subject to mechanical faults.
@@eldrago19 theres cheaper ways to get drives, like shucking them from like WD elements drives.
i got some on discount and a 14tb drive cost only 200$. inside these they have a regular drive, other than a small difference on power pins where you need some electrical tape on one of them.
both is good
@@cmoneytheman thats why tou build a nas with redundant drives so you wont lose that data
@@cmoneytheman you dont know what youre talking about