+hvyweight20 When I was young and naive (stupid!) I had a huge argument with my boyfriend while we were driving back to my home. I was so angry that I hopped out of the car and started walking home....in the middle of the night, way out in the country, without a single house or business in sight. He could not get me back in the car, but he drove very slowly beside me as I walked home. No way would he have left me out there. This man, if he loved her, would have done the same. I think he killed her and dumped her body. His actions were like he didn't care at all that she was missing. She sounds like a good woman, who was just about to start a new, better life for herself and her children. I hope she is found, Jennifer, and that you get the answers you need.
I did the same thing once too - only it was in a bad part of the city, and we were on our way back from the hospital, where I was being treated for bronchitis. He didn't come back, and I was lucky enough to get a ride home with a cop. A few months later a found a huge stash of child porn on the boyfriend's computer. Needless to say, I kicked him out, and called in an anonymous tip on him a while later, as I really didn't want to end up getting hurt. Some things are just warning signs...
And then the fact that he lied about going back to get her mother to go looking for her and that he got rid of the car and her stuff within 30 days, tells me all I need to know. He killed her. So sad because other than finding the body, there's not much that can be done at this point I wouldn't think since the dad is deceased.
I have this nagging suspicion that he killed her with a knife. For some reason, when I heard you say about the sandwich and the washer, then him selling the car, it clicked. Is it possible that he killed her, brought the knife back went straight to the kitchen to rinse it and with his seemingly crazed mind, he figured that he would use the knife to cut his sandwich and then he could wash it and place it with the cleaned dishes like nothing ever happened. The fact that he was leaning on the washer also makes me think, what if he put his bloodied clothes in there with the plan of washing them clean of any evidence and he was leaning on the washer to be 100% that grandma wouldnt open it and set his clothes to wash quickly while they went "searching". He couldve either started the washer and thats what woke gma up in actuality or he couldve just had the bloody clothes washing while they went to look for her. I say that because how could making a sandwich make such a racket, loud enough to wake grandma. I would be curious to know if that could fit the narrative.
I missed the part about the washer. I think you bring up valid points because I was wondering how making a sandwich makes so much noise. Your scenario makes a lot of sense and actually brought a chill down my spine.
The husband just doesn't seem bothered about his wife disappearing. If someone in my family went missing especially at that time of morning, I'd be panicking and trying to get everyone looking. I wouldn't just go home and make a sandwich- that sounds really strange. Add that to him selling her things, I think it's pretty likely he was involved. I hope the daughter finds out the truth soon though. - Rachel
shout out to Jennifer Stafford for being on here and interacting with us. I dont feel too optimistic about this case unfortunately. my best thoughts and wishes are with you Jennifer. from what I see though, if the shoe fits wear it. walking off into the dessert @ 2am? really? sorry but i don't buy it for a second. of course I would love to be wrong about my suspicion, but I don't think I am. either way, good thoughts and vibes towards Jennifer Stafford and your family, and thank you for sharing this with us.
I feel bad for the kids, and suspect the husband knows or did something here. I hope the family get more information on this. Thanks for sharing John good coverage. X
When I was 12 my mother left my dad, I'm almost 22 now and that is still my most vivid memory of my childhood. Just because she was only 13 doesn't mean she doesn't remember. Not that she couldn't be making it all up or anything, just saying that it is possible to recount such small details in such a small gap of time.
Same here. I was just about to be 12 when my parents split-up and it was their second time around. You don't forget something like that.You don't forget the events leading up to it. It's still a hard to look back on. I also remember a very embarrassing moment when the vice principal came and took me out of class to ask if I was alright. I told him I was , but it made so mad. I didn't want help. As long as someone has something to say, we should always at least consider it. If a child is a key witness, we still shouldn't undermine what it is they have to say.
Seriously. I'm now in my late 30's, but I still remember my father's abusive behaviour toward my mother and me with perfect clarity. Some memories don't dim with age. Luckily that also stands for the good ones, like climbing in the Alps, dancing a good solo, and holding my baby nieces for the first time.
neuralmute Exactly! All my memories that hold significant emotional weight are crystal clear, sometimes down to *exact* words that were said, what the person was wearing, etc. it's crazy how your mind can focus so intently on certain memories as if they happened yesterday. Btw, hello from a fellow dancer 😅
neuralmute I do jazz/hip hop and modern & lyrical mostly. I do pointe too but I'm not good enough to ever be a pro ballerina so I stay in my lane and focus more on the others lol.
To her children, I am so sorry. I hope that someone out there saw something, or knows something. Jen, keep going to every source you can, write down what you remember and reveal every fact. Don't hold back anything no matter how trivial.
Thank you soooo much for your help! Thank you for responding so fast I appreciate it. You did an amazing job reporting all the details. I cant thank you enough!
I hope this doesn't come across the wrong way, but this is by far my fav episode thus far. I think it is awesome that Jennifer is able to interact and answer questions we may have. Per usual though, John did such a thorough job, I have no nagging questions. I also agree, 100% that he did this. I'm just wondering if Jennifer feels this way, deep down. I hope they recover her remains so she can be laid to rest.
Just found your show today and I've been listening to them all day at work! You do a fabulous job linking info and talking in an impartial, compassionate way. Kudos!
sounds like cops did not do their job...also no search of dessert....not good....thank you..john...always excited to watch your videos....100 degrees...st.louis...i am stayin `...in.....watchin...you tube
I don't know if anyone has asked this, but what time did Pamela's mother say she heard her son-in-law in the kitchen? I ask because it would at least give a bit of a timeframe and possibly suggest a route to search. If she picked him up frequently, someone must know how long the trip typically took and maybe it could be determined how far off the normal route he could have gone if he did, in fact, kill Pamela.
He came home around 5 am.......that was a few hours later than normal, so that gave him 2ish hours and some of free time ....He was home by 5am.....normally home by no later than 230am
Jennifer Strafford I am praying for you. I can not imagine having to live not knowing. I admire your tenacity and I have to believe that you will get your answers.
Found an online obit for Kenneth Dale Jones 1949-2012. Lived most of his life in Arizona before moving to Texas. Just Lists wife Dianne and 2 sons (possibly stepsons from wife's comment on tribute page) no first wife or daughter mentioned. Worked for some kind of printing press/graphic design type company as a foreman. Interestingly says the company he worked with for years went bankrupt in 1992. Could this be another thing that made him snap- he loses his job while wife is about to start a promising career? Moved to Texas worked for another company for 2 years before going on disability.
Jack was not a good man. A lot of criminal history. I spoke with one of his military friends last year (also Pam's first husband) and the things he told me about Jack were scary!
Another great episode! You should totally do a Brainscratch on Jonathan Luna. A Maryland prosecuter who was found in his car stabbed 36 times in a Pennsylvania creek. Very interesting & mysterious case.
The historical image from Google Earth taken on July 26, 1992 shows that she could have walked northeast all the way to the Superstition Mountains or southwest to the canal. Directly north or south she would have run into small neighborhoods.
Hi John. A long time viewer, actually I've watched every searchlight you have made,but a new subscriber, infact my first chanel subscription! Your work, helping others in need, is extremely admirable and selfless. You're a great person. I've read plenty of comments like this on your videos, all thoroughly deserved. God bless you.
No man in his right mind would leave a women in the desert at 2am. Fight or no fight. There is no women who would be that hard headed to not get back in the car. Come on now. It isn't rocket science here. I feel sorry for their children. It's gotta be hard to accept that daddy killed mommy. That's a fucked situation. But... he did that shit. She is dead. He buried her in the desert, probably far away from where he says she got out.
m.patriotledger.com/article/20140620/NEWS/140629364 this reminds me of the Debbie Melo case of Taunton MA. She suppisedly got into an argument with her husband while driving home from a dermatology appointment. He was driving and claims she got out of the car on route 18 in Weymouth MA, appromately 35 minute drive from Taunton. Please consider featuring this case. I would be willing to send you any links from local news etc. Thank you.
Sadly all evidence points to murder. A map from '93 would be more helpful. You have 2 choices, it was planned or it just happened after an argument. I think it just happened after an argument, the journey from his work should be looked at (as of 93). Take into account the speed, the time roughly an argument could start/finish, then look at the surrounding area. Add the time he got home and made the sandwich and you have a rough idea of attack and burial. RIP.
Speaking as a mother, I would never leave my children with a violent person. It's really sad, but the husband looks really really suspicious to me, his actions on that night are way too bizarre. I can only feel for her daughter, and other kids, and hope that one way or another they get the closure they deserve. Great job John!
I think he definately knows more than he is telling ain't no way no how a husband would just leave..know we gotta think too if she was being agresive towards him and he just didn't want any part of it might be a reason for him to just up and leave ..probably being mad and all he said fuck it she wants to stay I'm gone and he probably felt bad afterwards knowing she was walking alone at 2 in the morning but who knows you know when i see cases like this i can't help to think that the husband is automatically involved maybe is not the case here but its odd ..
I find it extremely disturbing that the place she decides to get out at to is the ONLY wide open deserted plane on the whole damn map. My psyche tells me NO thats where he DUMPED her damn lifeless body. As usual, thats just my opinion. Who in their right mind, especially a woman is going to get OUT of thr car in the PITCH DARK bc theyre mad. No we woman will just shut the hell up to not make matters worse and then when we get home in safe surroundings, bite your head off lol. No way did that petite woman get out in the dark night especially since she was the one driving. He dumped her there. If I was Jennifer, I would have a search team all over that. Its helpful that they have built a bunch of houses in the distance because that means they dug up that land to build them houses. If they found a body they would have def called the police. Zero in on the area right at that intersection. Us, Brainscratchers will have his story dismantled in minutes. Jennifer keep your eye on this comment section because the people here def toss out some brilliant suggestions that could hopefully help you find your mother.
I completely agree with you. I definitely wouldn't get out the car especially at that time in the morning. The husband just seemed so calm about it as well. Like, his wife goes missing and he goes home and makes a sandwich?! I definitely think he was involved. - Rachel
I agree with this idea. However who knows whether he was telling the truth about the location where she "left the car"?? It could've been somewhere else.
She was also probably tired. It was 2am. She probably did not have energy to argue. I do not agree with his story and I am angry the cops didn't follow it up for certain...
Another great video John. From the comments, I see that Jennifer is looking over the posts and to her I'd like to say: stay strong Jennifer! John has a huge following...I hope & pray you get some good news. Yes, it's been a long time but when it's a family member (ESPECIALLY someone's mom!) you'll keep on keeping on no matter what!
Such a sad story, I can't imagine how hard it would be to lose a parent in this way at such a young age. I hope Jennifer and family finds answers soon. xx
Jennifer Strafford I am praying for you. I can not imagine having to live not knowing. I admire your tenacity and I have to believe that you will get your answers.
John, That intersection was totally barren. You said some of the buildings and developments may not have been there, well, NONE of them were. Here is a satellite image from 1992 I uploaded to Tinypic: i64.tinypic.com/alhrbt.jpg Also, I don't know if you use the google earth program or google maps in your browser, but, in google earth there is a little button at the bottom left that shows a timeline of satellite images year by year. I know you usually show a map of the area and I think this feature might be useful when covering older cases!
She's probably not there, if you think about it. The odds of finding her or some remains in the area are very good given all the developments. They would have found something digging and clearing.
My best guess that this poor woman was killed intentionally or accidentally by the husband and he got rid of her body. She never got out of any car and walked into the desert, especially at 2am. That's my opinion, your mileage may differ.
Being from the area, I hate to admit but Mesa was a very different thing 24+ years ago. Back then, there really wasn't a whole lot there. Since then, it has probably quadrupled in size. I don't know if that would have much bearing on this case itself, but if she happened to be buried anywhere within the Mesa/Tempe "city limits" from back then... she is more than likely covered by buildings now. I certainly wish the family the best of luck in finding out what happened to her, though. Such a sad story.
Hey John, You say that this show does not work without the "Brainscratch" community..... but it certainly would go nowhere without the "Captain".... You do a wonderful job and are a beacon of hope and compassion for many, in a world that sometimes feels like the quality of empathy is slowly draining away and being replaced by self interest, confusion and hate. For Jennifer and her family I send my best wishes that you are able to get some resolution to what happened to your mother. I wonder if anyone has followed up in getting the names of the men (women) that your father worked with and questioned/re-questioned them? Sometimes people don't realize that they know something important, or they do and just sit on it for years Maybe someone from his workplace knows who the car was sold to. I also wonder if he had any siblings that he talked to or saw on a regular basis and, again, whether they have been questioned/re-questioned. Jennifer, you stated in your answer to someone that after your mums "disappearance" that your sister continued to live with your dad and you lived with your Grandma. Do you think that your dad would have either purposely or accidentally told your sister any more about the night (perhaps that she may not be able to remember), and that undergoing hypnosis, and being taken back to that time might possibly bring something to light. Was your dad a religious man? Would he have confided in someone from the church - perhaps seeking forgiveness? The police should hang their heads in shame at their inaction in relation to this case.
I live in Tempe, AZ and I’m wondering what I can do for this case. I know there was no volunteer search or anything for her body but I’m not sure where I could start looking if I did just wander off into the desert as she supposedly did. The last place that he “saw” her probably isn’t actually the last place and he could’ve just thrown out any location when the grandma was asked. I feel like if it were in that area that her body was dumped (assuming the very high possibility that she was murdered) they possibly would’ve found her body while building the school and homes in the area.
Oh, wow. Ok. Yugonostalgia. That car brings memories. We had tons of them here in Croatia and exYugoslavia. Well, I don't think it would be easy for him to switch seats without exiting the car. Those cars were uncomfortable and had so little space. That said, I think we can forget about the location where he said she went out. This must be looked at for what it is with the data that we know are true, such as time he gets off work and time he gets back home. Can someone not as tired as me do some math to calculate the places where he would be able to drive her from his work - taking into account the drive and the time of his arrival home? Any aproximates would help and maybe someone could do a little google maps magic to point to any possibe sites? I know it would be only slightly better than blind guessing but it would get the wheels into motion. Are there any places that they used to visit together, nature parks, whatever? It can even be surprisingly closer to home, not that far off. Also one more thing, those Yugo's were really terrible with their MPG. If they drove for so long, was there a chance he needed to visit the gas station at some point? I mean, she picked him up, they drove for few hours, he got home, they went back searching for her.....even if it was close to full when she was driving it, at some point they would need to tank.
i would try to contact all his work buddies... someone like he is described, may be prone to brag about his act one day... good luck to her family. never stop searching
No woman in her right mind is going exit the car she is driving, row or no row, & run off into the desert @ 2 a.m.; unless, of course, she is being assaulted & is fleeing the perp. Now, if she were a passenger & the argument got too heated, I can see her saying, "Let me out of the car," & taking off to get away or cool down. But not if she's the one driving. If she's behind the wheel, she's gonna put his sorry ass out onto the side of the road, where he can find his own way home, & hopefully use that extra time to think about what he's said/done & wander home a few hrs later w/his tail between his legs & "Sorry, darlin'" on his lips. The bastard most likely forced her off the road, choked her out in an angry fit, & drug her body off into the desert darkness for the coyotes & other creatures to feast on. Then, he drove her car home, made himself a baloney sandwich & commenced to monchin', all w/o even washing his guilty hands. Sad to say, but if nobody even searched the area, she could be roadside, under brush right along his commute route & no one would ever be the wiser. Law enforcement failed these kids. I agree he must've created a crossroad for her to have exited the car, in order to throw folks off the actual path he took, but the least they could've done was send out a search party somewhere between his job & their home. At least make the effort. Utilize a couple of dogs, something. Dude went to his grave w/o ever telling his kids how near their mother's body is. That's coldhearted. It's a longshot, but he might've bragged or let slip to a buddy or a girlfriend some hint, or clue, as to her location. Some violent offenders are compelled to spill details, proving how 'they showed her,' or that they got away w/it. Others keep tight-lipped till the bitter end. I hope, for the family, & this poor woman, that he was a braggart & that someone comes forward, or better yet, that she just took off & is alright (but that's highly unlikely, all things considered).
I'm hurting for you Jennifer, I lost my mom in a different way but not having a mothers' love makes for a harder life. It sucks cause you never stop needing her. I don't believe a mom would leave kids/pets behind to start over. More like they stay and suffer until something changes. Have you tried a psychic ? Or getting very quiet and asking your mom what happened ? You'd be surprised how much info is "out there" to be tuned into. You have to be calm, feeling safe like you can handle whatever comes up and say I want the truth of that night then sit and wait until you get something, anything. Even a bodily movement can release a stored emotion. After you let yourself feel that feeling fully like a miracle thoughts, insights you never had will come one after the other like a puzzle falling into place. I learnt about this from a book called Focusing by Eugene T Gendlin, Phd. It changed/saved my life/sanity. That's all I can offer besides my prayers for your peace.
I'm sorry to hear about your mom,and yes I have reached out to several mediums no response back though. I'm willing to try any and all avenues. Thank you
If you're OK with it, I could try someone (a sensitive) here that I know. No promises, but at least she will give you an honest answer. Even if it's to say she doesn't pick up on anything.
Also, that area is very close to an Indian Reservation (within two miles). It's a perfect place to dump a body because police have no jurisdiction to search.
First of all, Jennifer...I am so sorry for all that you and your family have been through. It certainly does sound like he was involved in her disappearance. I will say that I have walked out of my house several times in the early morning hours after having an argument with my hubby when we were first married. I didn't go very far, usually climbing a tree in our large backyard and hanging out there 'til I cooled off or walking up and down the road within sight of our house. He didn't always come looking for me, but knew where I was and would look for me if I were gone more than a few minutes. I know that if I were to get out of my car in the middle of the night in an area fairly far from home, he would never drive off and leave me. He might not chase after me, but he would at least stay with the vehicle and then search for me if I went beyond where he could see or hear me. Thank you for all you do, John, in presenting these cases to us.
I am a big fan of yours. However I have to say this video made me angry. I can tell you that I have got out of my car while a passenger and driver in the middle of fights. For you to say it is unbelievable is complete bull.
It's not unbelievable that she got out of the car (or in fact you did), it is unbelievable to claim that someone who loves you (e.g. a husband) will just drive off and leave her/you there at 2am. And, I believe John said it made him suspicious that he didn't search, not that she left the car (even though it's odd as she was driving). I can tell you that my mother once got out of our car when I was about 10 and my brother was 4 and stormed off on the way home from a country pub in the middle of the afternoon only 20 mins walk from home, my father refused to leave her despite the fact they were still arguing. Another girl on here commented that she got out of a car during a fight and her boyfriend drove alongside her. I'll tell you what is 'complete bull' - someone claiming to love her and abandoning her at 2 am in the desert to go home and make a sandwich.
I’ll tell you what-I’m picking someone up from work at that hour and they piss me off- yeah THEYRE getting out of the car, not me. And what kind of a husband actually drives off?? I’ve done this during car arguments and while my husband will drive off, he doesn’t make it a mile before he turns around and comes back and that’s IF he leaves at all. At this hour, in this area, he would convince me back in the car. 5 minutes into the video-the husband did it
it is possible she met fate with a wild animal , I live about 3 miles from this area and we have multiple types of wild cats, also could have been snake bit , or made her way to the river that is just a couple miles away, there is vast desert in the area as well
It seems to me that the husband was a Psychopathic person... I feel he killed Pamela... Of course I do not know what happened..But that feels right. I mean Who makes a sandwich after that occurrence?? The question is Where did he dispose of the body?
Please answer the following questions so I could try and help you : 1 - What time did she went out to get him from work and where she was ? 2 - How long does it take to reach to his work from the place she was in ? 3 - What time did he return home ? 4 - The few days following the disappearance did you notice anything weird about him ? (going out suddenly , his "mode" changed ? or his mode becomes better ? 5 - The next day of disappearance did he use her car in that day for any reason ?
This is an interesting resource for attemting to match unidentified bodies to people reported missing. Anyone can try to compare the descriptions of the cases and submit a potential match, details and instructions on the website : www.doenetwork.org/index.php The records are not complete though, e.g. Pamela Jones is not on there.
Probably too late for that now, but since he brought your Moms' pager home did anyone try to recover where it pinged? I'm not sure but I read that pagers (like cell phones) ping towers.
Does any one know the time scale from him being picked up to him returning home....if he did do something what did he do with her body...is it possible it was in the boot and he disposed of it later..does any one know if he used her car again and for how long .....that would at least narrow down the area he used...i can't believe the police let him get rid of the car without checking it...doesn't any one know who he sold it too.....this whole thing sounds like a huge police fail to me
Several hours,...The reason I thought he might have put her body in the boot is because there was a widespread search but nothing was found so i'm assuming he drove some distance to hide her body,...Would he have had time too before picking her Mother up
Thank you, John, for all you do. I watch all the time. :) I live in Tucson, AZ, and will be in Mesa and Phoenix the first part of June. I was wondering, Jennifer, if you ever went on the drive with your Mom to take or pick him up from work? Maybe you know the route that was usually taken? Or if there was only one route they could have taken back then? I know they have added new loops and roadways since then, so I thought this could be helpful. My heart breaks for you, Jennifer. My mom died when I was 2 and I was also friends with a little girl named Vicki Lynn Hoskinson that was kidnapped and murdered in the 80's. Her killer is STILL on death row wrapped up in appeals! The police obviously did not do their due diligence in this case, which is sickening! I would love to do a little investigating of the actual route when I go up. My love and hope goes out to Jennifer and the family!!
If I understood GeekenDorx correctly, I think I spot a flaw in his thinking. Pamela couldn't both run off and finish school. Doing one precludes doing the other.
I hope I didn't come off as someone who watches a video and thinks he's solved a mystery. I only noticed an error in GD's theorizing. He's a bright guy, though, so I'm still not utterly certain even after watching a second time that I understood what he said.
Well, honestly.. I can remember a night in mid 90s.. My kids and I were 3+ hours from home, visiting with their grandma, my mom.. She'd picked us up and we went to her house for couple days.. Saturday I called and made arrangements for husband to meet us half way, so mom didn't have to drive so far to bring us home.. Husband showed up fairly drunk.. I was embarrassed, and in front of mom took keys and said I'll drive, so she wouldn't worry.. it was dark, probably 10-11 pm.. I have 3 babies, one just a few months old in back seat.. we get to driving, husband passes out and after an hour, baby starts crying for bottle.. I try to wake husband telling him reach in diaper bag at his feet, and hand me the bottle.. the baby could hold it himself, and I would keep driving.. we were probably 20-30 miles from home.. dark divided highway, ki d of between towns. Husband proceeds to open the passenger door, like he is going to get out. While I'm doing 60mph. I freak, start yelling for him to shut the door.. I quickly pull over and he doesn't understand what's going on.. the kids are crying. He's confused, I'm pissed.. He could have died.. I doubt he had his seatbelt on back in those days.. I get the baby his bottle, and and I'm crying and he gets mad and says to give him the keys.. he was going to drive, because I was crying and upset.. well.. that couldn't happen and we yelled and argued outside the car.. and eventually he walked off down a side road and into small area with a dozen houses.. I drove around the neighborhood for 10 mins calling his name.. I couldn't find him.. I didn't want to leave him, but he was hiding.. and it was late and the last thing I wanted was to deal with the police.. so I left.. got my babies home safe.. and fell asleep,. He wanders in about 6 hours later, a little sheepish, saying wow, that was a long walk.. But, If he hadn't showed up home.. How would it have looked? People would be asking.. why did you wait 8 hours to report him missing? So, yes.. I can understand leaving a person after a fight, even if it is kind of far from home and in the middle of nowhere.. just saying, lol
No woman would get out of the car, at 2:00 a.m. and walk into the desert! I know that their are a few women who comment below that they've done just that. But deep down, I don't buy this story. Some women might get angry enough to kick the man out and drive off but even that is dangerous and irresponsible. But regardless, what kind of man would leave her out there alone, drive off and watch her disappear in the rear view mirror, and not turn around !!!!!!????!!!! Just leave her there...At 2:00 a.m.... in the dark...in the desert....hmmmm....NOPE, not buying it.
about what time did he make it home did he have time to maybe kill amd get rid of her and them go back and dump her body somewhere i think he is guilty as shit but i pray sbe s alive and that she will be found ..... who did he sell the vehicle too maybe they saw something when they bought it
I actually saw a story (I think it was on Forensic Files) where a car that was involved in a pedestrian hit-and-run was sold and years later (maybe months, I'm not sure), it was tracked down by police and taken apart. They found blood in places no one would have been able to see without it having been dismantled and were able to get a DNA profile from it and link it to the driver who killed the pedestrian. Your comment made me think that if Pamela had been killed in the car and there was any blood present, it's possible that the step-father wouldn't have been able to clean it all up. The fact that the car was sold so quickly makes me think that there was something in there he didn't want the police to find.
Hmm.. I can probably agree the husband did something and dumped her body.. BUT.. I didn't hear anything about the condition she might have been in when she arrived to pick him up.. I had an incident occur many yrs ago.. 93', probably.. I had 3 kids.. 2yr old, 1 yr old and infant.. My mom drove 3 hrs.. picked up me and kids n drove back to her house for weekend.visit.. Sunday evening plan was, husband would meet us half way. So grandma wouldn't be drivng 6 hours round trip.. we got to meeting spot about 10pm.. he was there waiting.. but very drunk.. I was embarrassed my mom would see him that way.. and I had to act casual and just say, hey, I'll drive.. I've been just riding for 2 hours.. So I load the kids into the back seat.. and I have about a 1 1/2, - 2 hr drive to get home.. I lived in a farm type area, and the main road we were driving home on wasn't very busy.. I think it was sometimes one lane each way, sometimes 2, if we were closer to a more populated area ..This time of night.. there was very little traffic.. We got going.. kids dozed off.. husband passed out about half way back, my infant started fussing, then crying.. there wasn't anywhere easy or safe to pull over.. so I tried to wake my husband up, so he could get the babies bottle out of diaper bag at his feet.. He finally woke up, I thought.. baby crying.. and I tell him to reach into the bag and get the bottle.. should have been able to hand it to baby and keep driving.. So I'm going 60mph down a dark desolate road, with crying baby.. other kids are now waking up too.. and the man, opens the door of the car!! Like he's going to get out.. I scream.. pull over.. he gets out.. I'm crying too now.. he's mad.. I get baby bottle and calm kids down and then he tries to take the keys and say he's driving.. because I'm "obviously too upset to drive".. we are literally having this argument on side of the road.. I'm now screaming for him to give me the fricken keys.. I say if he's driving in his condition.. we are all getting out.. he gets mad.. tosses the keys into knee high weeds and walks off down the road.. 2 mins later I get the keys.. get the car started.. now he's maybe couple hundred feet down the road where there is a turn off, onto a street that leads into a neighborhood.. So as I drive up to him and roll window down and tell him to get in the car and stop being an ass.. He cusses at me and starts jogging away from me.. cutting through a field area.. I can t see him in the dark.. I drive around the block.. figuring I'll catch up to him again and get him in car.. but I can't find him.. I yell his name a few times.. I tell him I'm leaving.. The last thing I need is for a police car to show up.. he would prob go to jail, and we didn't have the extra $500 to deal with bailing him out.. So... I left him there.. pretty much in the middle of no where, an hour from home.. This is before cell phones.. so I just made the decision to get the kids home and to bed.. I figured he would call or show up in the morning.. and he did... a little embarrassed.. not sure he even remembered what happened.. He said later that afternoon.. he walked a "long way", before he finally got a ride the last few miles.. Anyway.. the point is.. if he had never shown up.. idk if my explaination would have sounded much better.. "He was drunk.. we were arguing and fighting over the keys.. He got mad and walked off into the dark because I wouldn't let him drive.. I looked, but couldn't find him so I finally left . I suppose the next morning.. If he hadn't shown up.. I would have probably loaded the kids back up and went to look for him.. but probably wouldn't have called him in as missing until Monday evening.. to be honest.. When he was on a binge.. he might have slept for awhile then woke up and started all over again.. Luckily.. he's been sober for nearly 20yrs.. and we've been married for 31! But if something would have happened to him that night... hit by a car, or robbed n beaten.. No-doubt, I would have been a suspect..
How anyone could really believe that a woman with young children, who was about to graduate from school and then be capable of starting a whole new career, got out of a car at 2 am, to walk out into the desert after arguing [about divorce?] with her husband, who was known to have an abusive streak, is very alarming to me. How are the police unable to get a handle on cases like this one?! I keep remembering the two separate Peterson cases that occurred in the last 10-15 years--Lacy and Stacy--in Lacy's case, if her body had not come to the surface of San Francisco Bay, that husband of hers might have gotten away with her murder, due to lack of concrete evidence the police could act upon. In Stacy's case, they could never find enough evidence with which to nail her husband for her 'disappearance', so they had to get him on the murder of another of his wives instead! This is nothing but alarming to me, because it sounds as though the clues are all there, yet nothing is done to solve this case. How that is able to happen in this day and age is beyond me! Did Pamela ever speak to anyone in her family about ever just up and leaving everyone and everything behind? Then, why in the world would the police even consider that idea as a plausible one, given how many husbands have actually been found to have killed their wives, or pregnant girlfriends?! How could the allow him to sell the car in which they had both been on the night of her disappearance, and why wasn't it considered suspicious that he had his wife's cell phone/pager? with him the day after her disappearance?! I'm sorry, but thanks to what sounds like gross negligence on the part of the local law enforcement dept. a case like this is now left up to outsiders to try and figure out and finally find a solution that will help the family in the end. Very sad. Someone needs to be able to look at all of the case notes the investigating officers have on this, in order to see if any pieces of this puzzle are still missing, then go from there, I guess.
How awful for the woman's kids and mother! Do you know if the police had all that info back in '93? Wonder why he was not charged with a crime. I read the one comment that there is/was a river within two miles. Wonder how much of a physical search police did? Once again I wish we had a truth serum for cases just like this and the right to administer it.
I don't entirely believe she was the one driving. The driver's seat is a position of power, so if anything, Pamela would've made her husband get out of the car. I think he was driving and took her somewhere remote to kill her. I think John makes a great point that if the husband was responsible, he wouldn't take the grandmother to the exact site. The husband was an abusive control freak who was losing his grip on Pamela and the kids, so her murder put him firmly back in control. Did anyone ever ask the grandmother about his physical state; did he have cuts, bruises, scratches, torn or disheveled clothes? Did he come home wearing what he left the house wearing? Were those garments ever discovered? Did the grandmother, Jennifer, or anyone else notice anything suspicious about the car afterwards? Did he clean it or take it to be cleaned?
Her supposedly walking off into the desert in the middle of the night is kinda strange. The desert at night is notoriously dangerous and if she lived in the area I'd be surprised if she didn't know that. I can see her leaving the vehicle and walking down the side of the road maybe, but walking off into the desert? I know you can get disoriented if you're in a shocked state but you're not usually shocked after an argument, though it is possible if say the person tells you something huge right out of nowhere. Add in anger... I dunno. This is a tough case sadly.
John, keep up the good work. You're being the voice of those who can no longer speak up for themselves. You're also doing the relatives and loved ones of those people a good turn by keeping my this in the public eye. There's also a never ending stream of source material to work from.
Agree with most that it was her husband. All fits together. Not sure if she did leave the car in a walking manner but maybe he attacked her in the car and she ran. He obviously caught her. The lack of remorse by going home and eating. The lying that he was going to get the grandmother when after all it was her idea to go find her. Don't think he even would of bothered if it wasn't for the grandmother. The selling of the car and the stuff in storage and he held on to her pager. Think maybe she had enough of his brutal ways towards her and her children and she wanted to better her life by schooling and leaving him. Jealous and angry he lost control over her he killed her. I watch cold justice a lot and they say not always a body is needed to be found guilty. But enough evidence is enough to put someone away. Such a shame this wasn't the case when the evil man was alive. But to the daughter Jennifer although I can't imagine what you and the rest of family went and are going through. I hope there is some comfort that you know in your heart what happened to your mum. At least you know she didn't run away or commit suicide. Not leaving you guys intentionally. So sorry you didn't get to see justice done.
I'm convinced that piece of shit hurt Pamela. And I don't think she got out of the car on her own, either. He either made that up for his "story", or he kicked her out of the car, followed her and then did something to her. He was about to lose control of her; she was done- was divorcing him, she had the 💜 of her kids, was beautiful and had a new career & future to look forward to and I bet he couldn't stand that! Add to that the fact that he got rid of her stuff after a month as if he *knew* she wasn't coming back and had her pager and it looks all bad for him. I hope his daughter Jennifer can find out one day what happened or just find her mom so she can somewhat grieve and move on.
it's so common someone goes missing after an argument with their spouse/boyfriend girlfriend, and the cops either don't check into until later ,or there's not enough prof to charge anyone. so sad anyone dies. i'm sure none of the sub-divisions and even the school were'nt there in 1993
You are correct, it wasn't develop ed at the time....there was nothing in that area then but a abandoned church. These roads were just dirt service roads at the time.
He def did it. He was losing control over her and abuse is all about control. It is well-described in the literature that victims are at greatest risk of being murdered by their abuser in the time period immediately after they leave them. She hadn't technically left yet, but divorce was going to happen and on top of that she was completing her degree. She didn't need him.
I had this happen to me. I had a girlfriend walk/hitchhike home from 45 miles away. She walked away from me at a flea market. I was worried. She was fine.
Why wasn't the car impounded and thoroughly searched by the cops because they might not have believed them at first but the daughter said that the step dad sold the vehicle 30 days after she went missing will you would think that the cops would have impounded it as for evidence until she is found.
Check out www.historicaerials.com for old satellite images. Just looking at the image from 1992, which is the closest year they have for that time period, there was basically nothing around that immediate vicinity except desert and mountains.
What time did Grandma find Jack eating the sandwich? What time did he get home? If he was picked up at 2:00 a.m., it would be interesting to know the exact timeline to know how much time had passed.
+Jennifer Stafford thanks! What a shame, the police definitely dropped the ball. Just asking the husband to take a polygraph could have helped answer some questions...
I’d like to see on the map where the husband worked in relation to their home. What was the time frame from pick-up until he arrived home. That would help narrow a search target.
in almost every case,the last person to see the missing person ,is the one who is involved with the disappearance.My heart goes out to the children of this woman,and I would bet that the husband lost his temper a little beyond what he expected and with the vast desert,until a person hiking or someone that is in the desert for some reason,such as riding a mini bike as in the mcStays.
seems like the husband has gotten away with murder and the police did nothing...
kevinth86 I agree 100%
kevinth86 I agree. It also looks like they have no evidence, yet, to charge him.
+hvyweight20 When I was young and naive (stupid!) I had a huge argument with my boyfriend while we were driving back to my home. I was so angry that I hopped out of the car and started walking home....in the middle of the night, way out in the country, without a single house or business in sight. He could not get me back in the car, but he drove very slowly beside me as I walked home. No way would he have left me out there. This man, if he loved her, would have done the same.
I think he killed her and dumped her body. His actions were like he didn't care at all that she was missing.
She sounds like a good woman, who was just about to start a new, better life for herself and her children. I hope she is found, Jennifer, and that you get the answers you need.
Thank you, I agree with you no one would leave someone in the middle of the desert....in the middle of the night. If you really cared for them.
***** Yes, he was the best boyfriend. He still is. We've been married almost 40 years!
I did the same thing once too - only it was in a bad part of the city, and we were on our way back from the hospital, where I was being treated for bronchitis. He didn't come back, and I was lucky enough to get a ride home with a cop. A few months later a found a huge stash of child porn on the boyfriend's computer. Needless to say, I kicked him out, and called in an anonymous tip on him a while later, as I really didn't want to end up getting hurt. Some things are just warning signs...
BirdInFlight christie groves Aww! So sweet, warms my heart knowing you guys are still together.👏🏼💖
BirdInFlight done this also. adrenalin spits you out there in a worse situation.
3 minutes in and it was obviously the husband that is behind this
And then the fact that he lied about going back to get her mother to go looking for her and that he got rid of the car and her stuff within 30 days, tells me all I need to know. He killed her. So sad because other than finding the body, there's not much that can be done at this point I wouldn't think since the dad is deceased.
sounds like very inept police department. this guy sounds guilty as sin.
I have this nagging suspicion that he killed her with a knife. For some reason, when I heard you say about the sandwich and the washer, then him selling the car, it clicked. Is it possible that he killed her, brought the knife back went straight to the kitchen to rinse it and with his seemingly crazed mind, he figured that he would use the knife to cut his sandwich and then he could wash it and place it with the cleaned dishes like nothing ever happened. The fact that he was leaning on the washer also makes me think, what if he put his bloodied clothes in there with the plan of washing them clean of any evidence and he was leaning on the washer to be 100% that grandma wouldnt open it and set his clothes to wash quickly while they went "searching". He couldve either started the washer and thats what woke gma up in actuality or he couldve just had the bloody clothes washing while they went to look for her. I say that because how could making a sandwich make such a racket, loud enough to wake grandma. I would be curious to know if that could fit the narrative.
I missed the part about the washer. I think you bring up valid points because I was wondering how making a sandwich makes so much noise. Your scenario makes a lot of sense and actually brought a chill down my spine.
What kind of man lets his wife walk into the desert by herself?
Good question. Seems odd and wild to me.
At the time in 1993 there was NOTHING out there just desert (where she went missing) but the abandoned church you pointed out was there.
The husband just doesn't seem bothered about his wife disappearing. If someone in my family went missing especially at that time of morning, I'd be panicking and trying to get everyone looking. I wouldn't just go home and make a sandwich- that sounds really strange. Add that to him selling her things, I think it's pretty likely he was involved. I hope the daughter finds out the truth soon though.
- Rachel
shout out to Jennifer Stafford for being on here and interacting with us. I dont feel too optimistic about this case unfortunately. my best thoughts and wishes are with you Jennifer. from what I see though, if the shoe fits wear it. walking off into the dessert @ 2am? really? sorry but i don't buy it for a second. of course I would love to be wrong about my suspicion, but I don't think I am. either way, good thoughts and vibes towards Jennifer Stafford and your family, and thank you for sharing this with us.
Thank you
I feel bad for the kids, and suspect the husband knows or did something here. I hope the family get more information on this. Thanks for sharing John good coverage. X
Age progressions were done by Carl Koppelman and yes that is what she would possibly look like now in her 60s.
When I was 12 my mother left my dad, I'm almost 22 now and that is still my most vivid memory of my childhood. Just because she was only 13 doesn't mean she doesn't remember. Not that she couldn't be making it all up or anything, just saying that it is possible to recount such small details in such a small gap of time.
Same here. I was just about to be 12 when my parents split-up and it was their second time around. You don't forget something like that.You don't forget the events leading up to it. It's still a hard to look back on. I also remember a very embarrassing moment when the vice principal came and took me out of class to ask if I was alright. I told him I was , but it made so mad. I didn't want help.
As long as someone has something to say, we should always at least consider it. If a child is a key witness, we still shouldn't undermine what it is they have to say.
Seriously. I'm now in my late 30's, but I still remember my father's abusive behaviour toward my mother and me with perfect clarity. Some memories don't dim with age. Luckily that also stands for the good ones, like climbing in the Alps, dancing a good solo, and holding my baby nieces for the first time.
neuralmute Exactly! All my memories that hold significant emotional weight are crystal clear, sometimes down to *exact* words that were said, what the person was wearing, etc. it's crazy how your mind can focus so intently on certain memories as if they happened yesterday. Btw, hello from a fellow dancer 😅
Whitney Angelie
Go you - dancing rocks! What kind(s) of dance do you do?
neuralmute I do jazz/hip hop and modern & lyrical mostly. I do pointe too but I'm not good enough to ever be a pro ballerina so I stay in my lane and focus more on the others lol.
To her children, I am so sorry. I hope that someone out there saw something, or knows something. Jen, keep going to every source you can, write down what you remember and reveal every fact. Don't hold back anything no matter how trivial.
Thank you
Thank you soooo much for your help! Thank you for responding so fast I appreciate it. You did an amazing job reporting all the details. I cant thank you enough!
I hope it helps and thank you for sharing this with us.
I hope this doesn't come across the wrong way, but this is by far my fav episode thus far. I think it is awesome that Jennifer is able to interact and answer questions we may have. Per usual though, John did such a thorough job, I have no nagging questions. I also agree, 100% that he did this. I'm just wondering if Jennifer feels this way, deep down. I hope they recover her remains so she can be laid to rest.
Yes I do feel the same way.
Just found your show today and I've been listening to them all day at work! You do a fabulous job linking info and talking in an impartial, compassionate way. Kudos!
Totally agree!! Addicted to these videos
sounds like cops did not do their job...also no search of dessert....not good....thank you..john...always excited to watch your videos....100 degrees...st.louis...i am stayin `...in.....watchin...you tube
I don't know if anyone has asked this, but what time did Pamela's mother say she heard her son-in-law in the kitchen? I ask because it would at least give a bit of a timeframe and possibly suggest a route to search. If she picked him up frequently, someone must know how long the trip typically took and maybe it could be determined how far off the normal route he could have gone if he did, in fact, kill Pamela.
He came home around 5 am.......that was a few hours later than normal, so that gave him 2ish hours and some of free time ....He was home by 5am.....normally home by no later than 230am
Jennifer Strafford I am praying for you. I can not imagine having to live not knowing. I admire your tenacity and I have to believe that you will get your answers.
Thank you
Found an online obit for Kenneth Dale Jones 1949-2012. Lived most of his life in Arizona before moving to Texas. Just Lists wife Dianne and 2 sons (possibly stepsons from wife's comment on tribute page) no first wife or daughter mentioned. Worked for some kind of printing press/graphic design type company as a foreman. Interestingly says the company he worked with for years went bankrupt in 1992. Could this be another thing that made him snap- he loses his job while wife is about to start a promising career? Moved to Texas worked for another company for 2 years before going on disability.
Jack stold this mans Identity looong ago ...Dianne is Jacks sister. This was one of his aliases.
Jack had a handful of names he used. We didn't know this until he passed away.
+Jennifer Stafford he stole someone's identity?! Did he have any other criminal activity in his past? I'm so sorry about your mom
Yes he stole someones Identity the guy Eugene mentioned. No criminal record that we know of.
Jack was not a good man. A lot of criminal history. I spoke with one of his military friends last year (also Pam's first husband) and the things he told me about Jack were scary!
I love waking up to a new brainscratch!!
The question I would have asked.
Was he out long enough to dispose of the body?
Apparently he didn't get home until after 5am. Sure sounds like plenty of time
Yes
Thank you
Another great episode! You should totally do a Brainscratch on Jonathan Luna. A Maryland prosecuter who was found in his car stabbed 36 times in a Pennsylvania creek. Very interesting & mysterious case.
The historical image from Google Earth taken on July 26, 1992 shows that she could have walked northeast all the way to the Superstition Mountains or southwest to the canal. Directly north or south she would have run into small neighborhoods.
I can't picture my wife driving and then getting out to walk after arguing she would kick me out first..the husband story just isn't adding up...
It's obvious the murderer took his secret to the grave in 2012...
Hi John. A long time viewer, actually I've watched every searchlight you have made,but a new subscriber, infact my first chanel subscription! Your work, helping others in need, is extremely admirable and selfless. You're a great person. I've read plenty of comments like this on your videos, all thoroughly deserved. God bless you.
No man in his right mind would leave a women in the desert at 2am. Fight or no fight. There is no women who would be that hard headed to not get back in the car. Come on now. It isn't rocket science here. I feel sorry for their children. It's gotta be hard to accept that daddy killed mommy. That's a fucked situation. But... he did that shit. She is dead. He buried her in the desert, probably far away from where he says she got out.
good well structured narration
I agree
m.patriotledger.com/article/20140620/NEWS/140629364 this reminds me of the Debbie Melo case of Taunton MA. She suppisedly got into an argument with her husband while driving home from a dermatology appointment. He was driving and claims she got out of the car on route 18 in Weymouth MA, appromately 35 minute drive from Taunton. Please consider featuring this case. I would be willing to send you any links from local news etc. Thank you.
Sadly all evidence points to murder. A map from '93 would be more helpful. You have 2 choices, it was planned or it just happened after an argument. I think it just happened after an argument, the journey from his work should be looked at (as of 93). Take into account the speed, the time roughly an argument could start/finish, then look at the surrounding area. Add the time he got home and made the sandwich and you have a rough idea of attack and burial. RIP.
Speaking as a mother, I would never leave my children with a violent person. It's really sad, but the husband looks really really suspicious to me, his actions on that night are way too bizarre. I can only feel for her daughter, and other kids, and hope that one way or another they get the closure they deserve. Great job John!
I think he definately knows more than he is telling ain't no way no how a husband would just leave..know we gotta think too if she was being agresive towards him and he just didn't want any part of it might be a reason for him to just up and leave ..probably being mad and all he said fuck it she wants to stay I'm gone and he probably felt bad afterwards knowing she was walking alone at 2 in the morning but who knows you know when i see cases like this i can't help to think that the husband is automatically involved maybe is not the case here but its odd ..
I used to be naive and believe murderers were always caught and punished. now I know people get away with murder all the time. makes me angry and sad.
I find it extremely disturbing that the place she decides to get out at to is the ONLY wide open deserted plane on the whole damn map. My psyche tells me NO thats where he DUMPED her damn lifeless body. As usual, thats just my opinion. Who in their right mind, especially a woman is going to get OUT of thr car in the PITCH DARK bc theyre mad. No we woman will just shut the hell up to not make matters worse and then when we get home in safe surroundings, bite your head off lol. No way did that petite woman get out in the dark night especially since she was the one driving. He dumped her there. If I was Jennifer, I would have a search team all over that. Its helpful that they have built a bunch of houses in the distance because that means they dug up that land to build them houses. If they found a body they would have def called the police. Zero in on the area right at that intersection. Us, Brainscratchers will have his story dismantled in minutes. Jennifer keep your eye on this comment section because the people here def toss out some brilliant suggestions that could hopefully help you find your mother.
I completely agree with you. I definitely wouldn't get out the car especially at that time in the morning. The husband just seemed so calm about it as well. Like, his wife goes missing and he goes home and makes a sandwich?! I definitely think he was involved.
- Rachel
+97Evanescencefan I agree. Especially if Im driving the car. Lol. Theres no way Im getting out on my own accord.
+hvyweight20 Lol, if I was driving the car, I'd probably just threaten to kick the passenger out so they shut up, not get out myself
I agree with this idea. However who knows whether he was telling the truth about the location where she "left the car"?? It could've been somewhere else.
She was also probably tired. It was 2am. She probably did not have energy to argue. I do not agree with his story and I am angry the cops didn't follow it up for certain...
Another great video John. From the comments, I see that Jennifer is looking over the posts and to her I'd like to say: stay strong Jennifer! John has a huge following...I hope & pray you get some good news. Yes, it's been a long time but when it's a family member (ESPECIALLY someone's mom!) you'll keep on keeping on no matter what!
Yes he did do a wonderful job! I will be answering any all questions absolutely.
Such a sad story, I can't imagine how hard it would be to lose a parent in this way at such a young age. I hope Jennifer and family finds answers soon. xx
Thank you
Jennifer Strafford I am praying for you. I can not imagine having to live not knowing. I admire your tenacity and I have to believe that you will get your answers.
Thank you
John,
That intersection was totally barren. You said some of the buildings and developments may not have been there, well, NONE of them were. Here is a satellite image from 1992 I uploaded to Tinypic:
i64.tinypic.com/alhrbt.jpg
Also, I don't know if you use the google earth program or google maps in your browser, but, in google earth there is a little button at the bottom left that shows a timeline of satellite images year by year. I know you usually show a map of the area and I think this feature might be useful when covering older cases!
She's probably not there, if you think about it. The odds of finding her or some remains in the area are very good given all the developments. They would have found something digging and clearing.
New episode to start the day! Thank you John.
My best guess that this poor woman was killed intentionally or accidentally by the husband and he got rid of her body. She never got out of any car and walked into the desert, especially at 2am. That's my opinion, your mileage may differ.
Very possible
Being from the area, I hate to admit but Mesa was a very different thing 24+ years ago. Back then, there really wasn't a whole lot there. Since then, it has probably quadrupled in size. I don't know if that would have much bearing on this case itself, but if she happened to be buried anywhere within the Mesa/Tempe "city limits" from back then... she is more than likely covered by buildings now. I certainly wish the family the best of luck in finding out what happened to her, though. Such a sad story.
Hey John,
You say that this show does not work without the "Brainscratch" community..... but it certainly would go nowhere without the "Captain"....
You do a wonderful job and are a beacon of hope and compassion for many, in a world that sometimes feels like the quality of empathy is slowly draining away and being replaced by self interest, confusion and hate.
For Jennifer and her family I send my best wishes that you are able to get some resolution to what happened to your mother.
I wonder if anyone has followed up in getting the names of the men (women) that your father worked with and questioned/re-questioned them? Sometimes people don't realize that they know something important, or they do and just sit on it for years Maybe someone from his workplace knows who the car was sold to.
I also wonder if he had any siblings that he talked to or saw on a regular basis and, again, whether they have been questioned/re-questioned.
Jennifer, you stated in your answer to someone that after your mums "disappearance" that your sister continued to live with your dad and you lived with your Grandma. Do you think that your dad would have either purposely or accidentally told your sister any more about the night (perhaps that she may not be able to remember), and that undergoing hypnosis, and being taken back to that time might possibly bring something to light.
Was your dad a religious man? Would he have confided in someone from the church - perhaps seeking forgiveness?
The police should hang their heads in shame at their inaction in relation to this case.
I live in Tempe, AZ and I’m wondering what I can do for this case. I know there was no volunteer search or anything for her body but I’m not sure where I could start looking if I did just wander off into the desert as she supposedly did. The last place that he “saw” her probably isn’t actually the last place and he could’ve just thrown out any location when the grandma was asked. I feel like if it were in that area that her body was dumped (assuming the very high possibility that she was murdered) they possibly would’ve found her body while building the school and homes in the area.
Oh, wow. Ok. Yugonostalgia. That car brings memories. We had tons of them here in Croatia and exYugoslavia. Well, I don't think it would be easy for him to switch seats without exiting the car. Those cars were uncomfortable and had so little space.
That said, I think we can forget about the location where he said she went out. This must be looked at for what it is with the data that we know are true, such as time he gets off work and time he gets back home. Can someone not as tired as me do some math to calculate the places where he would be able to drive her from his work - taking into account the drive and the time of his arrival home? Any aproximates would help and maybe someone could do a little google maps magic to point to any possibe sites? I know it would be only slightly better than blind guessing but it would get the wheels into motion. Are there any places that they used to visit together, nature parks, whatever? It can even be surprisingly closer to home, not that far off.
Also one more thing, those Yugo's were really terrible with their MPG. If they drove for so long, was there a chance he needed to visit the gas station at some point? I mean, she picked him up, they drove for few hours, he got home, they went back searching for her.....even if it was close to full when she was driving it, at some point they would need to tank.
i would try to contact all his work buddies... someone like he is described, may be prone to brag about his act one day...
good luck to her family. never stop searching
Is there any way that the car might still be in use and could it maybe be tracked down and sprayed with luminal or just investigated?
Good idea.
Should do Andrew gosden
This is sad! I hope her body or even she is eventually found or comes forward.
Chris (UK).
Was it a 20 mins drive to home or 20 mins walk?
Drive
Thanks
Maybe she accepted a ride from the Toybox Killer who was doing his dirty work in AZ then.
always the same situation,argument, mom storms off..never seen from since. similiar to the recent Bianca Carrasco case
Every week I am anxiously awaiting your videos. This work that you're doing is so important. You are awesome.
No woman in her right mind is going exit the car she is driving, row or no row, & run off into the desert @ 2 a.m.; unless, of course, she is being assaulted & is fleeing the perp. Now, if she were a passenger & the argument got too heated, I can see her saying, "Let me out of the car," & taking off to get away or cool down. But not if she's the one driving. If she's behind the wheel, she's gonna put his sorry ass out onto the side of the road, where he can find his own way home, & hopefully use that extra time to think about what he's said/done & wander home a few hrs later w/his tail between his legs & "Sorry, darlin'" on his lips. The bastard most likely forced her off the road, choked her out in an angry fit, & drug her body off into the desert darkness for the coyotes & other creatures to feast on. Then, he drove her car home, made himself a baloney sandwich & commenced to monchin', all w/o even washing his guilty hands. Sad to say, but if nobody even searched the area, she could be roadside, under brush right along his commute route & no one would ever be the wiser. Law enforcement failed these kids. I agree he must've created a crossroad for her to have exited the car, in order to throw folks off the actual path he took, but the least they could've done was send out a search party somewhere between his job & their home. At least make the effort. Utilize a couple of dogs, something. Dude went to his grave w/o ever telling his kids how near their mother's body is. That's coldhearted. It's a longshot, but he might've bragged or let slip to a buddy or a girlfriend some hint, or clue, as to her location. Some violent offenders are compelled to spill details, proving how 'they showed her,' or that they got away w/it. Others keep tight-lipped till the bitter end. I hope, for the family, & this poor woman, that he was a braggart & that someone comes forward, or better yet, that she just took off & is alright (but that's highly unlikely, all things considered).
I'm hurting for you Jennifer, I lost my mom in a different way but not having a mothers' love makes for a harder life. It sucks cause you never stop needing her. I don't believe a mom would leave kids/pets behind to start over. More like they stay and suffer until something changes. Have you tried a psychic ? Or getting very quiet and asking your mom what happened ? You'd be surprised how much info is "out there" to be tuned into. You have to be calm, feeling safe like you can handle whatever comes up and say I want the truth of that night then sit and wait until you get something, anything. Even a bodily movement can release a stored emotion. After you let yourself feel that feeling fully like a miracle thoughts, insights you never had will come one after the other like a puzzle falling into place. I learnt about this from a book called Focusing by Eugene T Gendlin, Phd. It changed/saved my life/sanity. That's all I can offer besides my prayers for your peace.
I'm sorry to hear about your mom,and yes I have reached out to several mediums no response back though. I'm willing to try any and all avenues. Thank you
If you're OK with it, I could try someone (a sensitive) here that I know. No promises, but at least she will give you an honest answer. Even if it's to say she doesn't pick up on anything.
Jennifer Stafford would love to talk to you. I think we are both near Seattle...have some of your mom's things at our those. Your cousin..Mindy
Jennifer Stafford crimsonlies78@aol.com if you want to geta hold of me
I love your videos! Are you planning on doing the Lee Cutler case ever? :)
in 1993 most all of that construction was not in place
That is correct...the only thing out there at the time was the abandon church . Nothing else was there then but RAW DESERT
The only reason I can see that he would go get her mother, is for an alibi.
Great work GD, I hope Jennifer gets some answers.
I live in Mesa, AZ. In 92 that was absolutely the middle of nowhere.
Also, that area is very close to an Indian Reservation (within two miles). It's a perfect place to dump a body because police have no jurisdiction to search.
First of all, Jennifer...I am so sorry for all that you and your family have been through.
It certainly does sound like he was involved in her disappearance.
I will say that I have walked out of my house several times in the early morning hours after having an argument with my hubby when we were first married. I didn't go very far, usually climbing a tree in our large backyard and hanging out there 'til I cooled off or walking up and down the road within sight of our house. He didn't always come looking for me, but knew where I was and would look for me if I were gone more than a few minutes.
I know that if I were to get out of my car in the middle of the night in an area fairly far from home, he would never drive off and leave me. He might not chase after me, but he would at least stay with the vehicle and then search for me if I went beyond where he could see or hear me.
Thank you for all you do, John, in presenting these cases to us.
Thank you
I am a big fan of yours. However I have to say this video made me angry. I can tell you that I have got out of my car while a passenger and driver in the middle of fights. For you to say it is unbelievable is complete bull.
It's not unbelievable that she got out of the car (or in fact you did), it is unbelievable to claim that someone who loves you (e.g. a husband) will just drive off and leave her/you there at 2am. And, I believe John said it made him suspicious that he didn't search, not that she left the car (even though it's odd as she was driving). I can tell you that my mother once got out of our car when I was about 10 and my brother was 4 and stormed off on the way home from a country pub in the middle of the afternoon only 20 mins walk from home, my father refused to leave her despite the fact they were still arguing. Another girl on here commented that she got out of a car during a fight and her boyfriend drove alongside her. I'll tell you what is 'complete bull' - someone claiming to love her and abandoning her at 2 am in the desert to go home and make a sandwich.
I’ll tell you what-I’m picking someone up from work at that hour and they piss me off- yeah THEYRE getting out of the car, not me. And what kind of a husband actually drives off?? I’ve done this during car arguments and while my husband will drive off, he doesn’t make it a mile before he turns around and comes back and that’s IF he leaves at all. At this hour, in this area, he would convince me back in the car. 5 minutes into the video-the husband did it
it is possible she met fate with a wild animal , I live about 3 miles from this area and we have multiple types of wild cats, also could have been snake bit , or made her way to the river that is just a couple miles away, there is vast desert in the area as well
If she.... did there would be bones that surface by now Id think.
How did the husband die? Maybe he couldn't stand his secret digging at his conscience and....??
He died of an brain aneurysm
It seems to me that the husband was a Psychopathic person... I feel he killed Pamela... Of course I do not know what happened..But that feels right. I mean Who makes a sandwich after that occurrence?? The question is Where did he dispose of the body?
Please answer the following questions so I could try and help you :
1 - What time did she went out to get him from work and where she was ?
2 - How long does it take to reach to his work from the place she was in ?
3 - What time did he return home ?
4 - The few days following the disappearance did you notice anything weird about him ? (going out suddenly , his "mode" changed ? or his mode becomes better ?
5 - The next day of disappearance did he use her car in that day for any reason ?
Shared on our Twitter from Ky
Thank you
Jennifer Stafford Sent you a Friend Request on Facebook
WOW disgusting failure on the part of the police! It sounds like they did nothing.
I saw her video on Unsolved Mysteries. I feel so bad for her. Thanks for doing this.
This is an interesting resource for attemting to match unidentified bodies to people reported missing. Anyone can try to compare the descriptions of the cases and submit a potential match, details and instructions on the website : www.doenetwork.org/index.php The records are not complete though, e.g. Pamela Jones is not on there.
Yes NAMUS ran the Dna from us kids in their data base....no matches yet but Im wiling to try anything :)
Probably too late for that now, but since he brought your Moms' pager home did anyone try to recover where it pinged? I'm not sure but I read that pagers (like cell phones) ping towers.
sad case. j
Seqaylah Young is missing from South Bend Indiana. Missing since Dec28,2016 . Please share and bring her home.. Thank you!!
Does any one know the time scale from him being picked up to him returning home....if he did do something what did he do with her body...is it possible it was in the boot and he disposed of it later..does any one know if he used her car again and for how long .....that would at least narrow down the area he used...i can't believe the police let him get rid of the car without checking it...doesn't any one know who he sold it too.....this whole thing sounds like a huge police fail to me
He was running several hours later than normal and he said that was because they drove around arguing for a long time.
Several hours,...The reason I thought he might have put her body in the boot is because there was a widespread search but nothing was found so i'm assuming he drove some distance to hide her body,...Would he have had time too before picking her Mother up
Thank you, John, for all you do. I watch all the time. :) I live in Tucson, AZ, and will be in Mesa and Phoenix the first part of June. I was wondering, Jennifer, if you ever went on the drive with your Mom to take or pick him up from work? Maybe you know the route that was usually taken? Or if there was only one route they could have taken back then? I know they have added new loops and roadways since then, so I thought this could be helpful. My heart breaks for you, Jennifer. My mom died when I was 2 and I was also friends with a little girl named Vicki Lynn Hoskinson that was kidnapped and murdered in the 80's. Her killer is STILL on death row wrapped up in appeals! The police obviously did not do their due diligence in this case, which is sickening! I would love to do a little investigating of the actual route when I go up. My love and hope goes out to Jennifer and the family!!
If I understood GeekenDorx correctly, I think I spot a flaw in his thinking. Pamela couldn't both run off and finish school. Doing one precludes doing the other.
She didn't finish school this I know.
I hope I didn't come off as someone who watches a video and thinks he's solved a mystery. I only noticed an error in GD's theorizing. He's a bright guy, though, so I'm still not utterly certain even after watching a second time that I understood what he said.
+Jennifer Stafford i am so sorry for your loss. Losing your mom at any age is one of the most difficult times in our lives.
Well, honestly.. I can remember a night in mid 90s.. My kids and I were 3+ hours from home, visiting with their grandma, my mom.. She'd picked us up and we went to her house for couple days.. Saturday I called and made arrangements for husband to meet us half way, so mom didn't have to drive so far to bring us home.. Husband showed up fairly drunk.. I was embarrassed, and in front of mom took keys and said I'll drive, so she wouldn't worry.. it was dark, probably 10-11 pm.. I have 3 babies, one just a few months old in back seat.. we get to driving, husband passes out and after an hour, baby starts crying for bottle.. I try to wake husband telling him reach in diaper bag at his feet, and hand me the bottle.. the baby could hold it himself, and I would keep driving.. we were probably 20-30 miles from home.. dark divided highway, ki d of between towns. Husband proceeds to open the passenger door, like he is going to get out. While I'm doing 60mph. I freak, start yelling for him to shut the door.. I quickly pull over and he doesn't understand what's going on.. the kids are crying. He's confused, I'm pissed.. He could have died.. I doubt he had his seatbelt on back in those days.. I get the baby his bottle, and and I'm crying and he gets mad and says to give him the keys.. he was going to drive, because I was crying and upset.. well.. that couldn't happen and we yelled and argued outside the car.. and eventually he walked off down a side road and into small area with a dozen houses.. I drove around the neighborhood for 10 mins calling his name.. I couldn't find him.. I didn't want to leave him, but he was hiding.. and it was late and the last thing I wanted was to deal with the police.. so I left.. got my babies home safe.. and fell asleep,. He wanders in about 6 hours later, a little sheepish, saying wow, that was a long walk.. But, If he hadn't showed up home.. How would it have looked? People would be asking.. why did you wait 8 hours to report him missing? So, yes.. I can understand leaving a person after a fight, even if it is kind of far from home and in the middle of nowhere.. just saying, lol
No woman would get out of the car, at 2:00 a.m. and walk into the desert! I know that their are a few women who comment below that they've done just that. But deep down, I don't buy this story. Some women might get angry enough to kick the man out and drive off but even that is dangerous and irresponsible. But regardless, what kind of man would leave her out there alone, drive off and watch her disappear in the rear view mirror, and not turn around !!!!!!????!!!! Just leave her there...At 2:00 a.m.... in the dark...in the desert....hmmmm....NOPE, not buying it.
about what time did he make it home did he have time to maybe kill amd get rid of her and them go back and dump her body somewhere i think he is guilty as shit but i pray sbe s alive and that she will be found ..... who did he sell the vehicle too maybe they saw something when they bought it
We don't know who he sold the car too, and he was very late getting home....but he said he was late because they drove around arguing for a while.
I actually saw a story (I think it was on Forensic Files) where a car that was involved in a pedestrian hit-and-run was sold and years later (maybe months, I'm not sure), it was tracked down by police and taken apart. They found blood in places no one would have been able to see without it having been dismantled and were able to get a DNA profile from it and link it to the driver who killed the pedestrian. Your comment made me think that if Pamela had been killed in the car and there was any blood present, it's possible that the step-father wouldn't have been able to clean it all up. The fact that the car was sold so quickly makes me think that there was something in there he didn't want the police to find.
Hmm.. I can probably agree the husband did something and dumped her body.. BUT.. I didn't hear anything about the condition she might have been in when she arrived to pick him up.. I had an incident occur many yrs ago.. 93', probably.. I had 3 kids.. 2yr old, 1 yr old and infant.. My mom drove 3 hrs.. picked up me and kids n drove back to her house for weekend.visit.. Sunday evening plan was, husband would meet us half way. So grandma wouldn't be drivng 6 hours round trip.. we got to meeting spot about 10pm.. he was there waiting.. but very drunk.. I was embarrassed my mom would see him that way.. and I had to act casual and just say, hey, I'll drive.. I've been just riding for 2 hours.. So I load the kids into the back seat.. and I have about a 1 1/2, - 2 hr drive to get home.. I lived in a farm type area, and the main road we were driving home on wasn't very busy.. I think it was sometimes one lane each way, sometimes 2, if we were closer to a more populated area ..This time of night.. there was very little traffic.. We got going.. kids dozed off.. husband passed out about half way back, my infant started fussing, then crying.. there wasn't anywhere easy or safe to pull over.. so I tried to wake my husband up, so he could get the babies bottle out of diaper bag at his feet.. He finally woke up, I thought.. baby crying.. and I tell him to reach into the bag and get the bottle.. should have been able to hand it to baby and keep driving.. So I'm going 60mph down a dark desolate road, with crying baby.. other kids are now waking up too.. and the man, opens the door of the car!! Like he's going to get out.. I scream.. pull over.. he gets out.. I'm crying too now.. he's mad.. I get baby bottle and calm kids down and then he tries to take the keys and say he's driving.. because I'm "obviously too upset to drive".. we are literally having this argument on side of the road.. I'm now screaming for him to give me the fricken keys.. I say if he's driving in his condition.. we are all getting out.. he gets mad.. tosses the keys into knee high weeds and walks off down the road.. 2 mins later I get the keys.. get the car started.. now he's maybe couple hundred feet down the road where there is a turn off, onto a street that leads into a neighborhood.. So as I drive up to him and roll window down and tell him to get in the car and stop being an ass.. He cusses at me and starts jogging away from me.. cutting through a field area.. I can t see him in the dark.. I drive around the block.. figuring I'll catch up to him again and get him in car.. but I can't find him.. I yell his name a few times.. I tell him I'm leaving.. The last thing I need is for a police car to show up.. he would prob go to jail, and we didn't have the extra $500 to deal with bailing him out.. So... I left him there.. pretty much in the middle of no where, an hour from home.. This is before cell phones.. so I just made the decision to get the kids home and to bed.. I figured he would call or show up in the morning.. and he did... a little embarrassed.. not sure he even remembered what happened.. He said later that afternoon.. he walked a "long way", before he finally got a ride the last few miles.. Anyway.. the point is.. if he had never shown up.. idk if my explaination would have sounded much better.. "He was drunk.. we were arguing and fighting over the keys.. He got mad and walked off into the dark because I wouldn't let him drive.. I looked, but couldn't find him so I finally left . I suppose the next morning.. If he hadn't shown up.. I would have probably loaded the kids back up and went to look for him.. but probably wouldn't have called him in as missing until Monday evening.. to be honest.. When he was on a binge.. he might have slept for awhile then woke up and started all over again.. Luckily.. he's been sober for nearly 20yrs.. and we've been married for 31! But if something would have happened to him that night... hit by a car, or robbed n beaten.. No-doubt, I would have been a suspect..
How anyone could really believe that a woman with young children, who was about to graduate from school and then be capable of starting a whole new career, got out of a car at 2 am, to walk out into the desert after arguing [about divorce?] with her husband, who was known to have an abusive streak, is very alarming to me. How are the police unable to get a handle on cases like this one?!
I keep remembering the two separate Peterson cases that occurred in the last 10-15 years--Lacy and Stacy--in Lacy's case, if her body had not come to the surface of San Francisco Bay, that husband of hers might have gotten away with her murder, due to lack of concrete evidence the police could act upon. In Stacy's case, they could never find enough evidence with which to nail her husband for her 'disappearance', so they had to get him on the murder of another of his wives instead!
This is nothing but alarming to me, because it sounds as though the clues are all there, yet nothing is done to solve this case. How that is able to happen in this day and age is beyond me! Did Pamela ever speak to anyone in her family about ever just up and leaving everyone and everything behind? Then, why in the world would the police even consider that idea as a plausible one, given how many husbands have actually been found to have killed their wives, or pregnant girlfriends?! How could the allow him to sell the car in which they had both been on the night of her disappearance, and why wasn't it considered suspicious that he had his wife's cell phone/pager? with him the day after her disappearance?!
I'm sorry, but thanks to what sounds like gross negligence on the part of the local law enforcement dept. a case like this is now left up to outsiders to try and figure out and finally find a solution that will help the family in the end. Very sad. Someone needs to be able to look at all of the case notes the investigating officers have on this, in order to see if any pieces of this puzzle are still missing, then go from there, I guess.
How awful for the woman's kids and mother! Do you know if the police had all that info back in '93? Wonder why he was not charged with a crime. I read the one comment that there is/was a river within two miles. Wonder how much of a physical search police did? Once again I wish we had a truth serum for cases just like this and the right to administer it.
I don't entirely believe she was the one driving. The driver's seat is a position of power, so if anything, Pamela would've made her husband get out of the car. I think he was driving and took her somewhere remote to kill her. I think John makes a great point that if the husband was responsible, he wouldn't take the grandmother to the exact site. The husband was an abusive control freak who was losing his grip on Pamela and the kids, so her murder put him firmly back in control.
Did anyone ever ask the grandmother about his physical state; did he have cuts, bruises, scratches, torn or disheveled clothes? Did he come home wearing what he left the house wearing? Were those garments ever discovered? Did the grandmother, Jennifer, or anyone else notice anything suspicious about the car afterwards? Did he clean it or take it to be cleaned?
Her supposedly walking off into the desert in the middle of the night is kinda strange. The desert at night is notoriously dangerous and if she lived in the area I'd be surprised if she didn't know that. I can see her leaving the vehicle and walking down the side of the road maybe, but walking off into the desert? I know you can get disoriented if you're in a shocked state but you're not usually shocked after an argument, though it is possible if say the person tells you something huge right out of nowhere. Add in anger... I dunno. This is a tough case sadly.
John, keep up the good work. You're being the voice of those who can no longer speak up for themselves. You're also doing the relatives and loved ones of those people a good turn by keeping my this in the public eye. There's also a never ending stream of source material to work from.
Agree with most that it was her husband. All fits together. Not sure if she did leave the car in a walking manner but maybe he attacked her in the car and she ran. He obviously caught her. The lack of remorse by going home and eating. The lying that he was going to get the grandmother when after all it was her idea to go find her. Don't think he even would of bothered if it wasn't for the grandmother. The selling of the car and the stuff in storage and he held on to her pager. Think maybe she had enough of his brutal ways towards her and her children and she wanted to better her life by schooling and leaving him. Jealous and angry he lost control over her he killed her. I watch cold justice a lot and they say not always a body is needed to be found guilty. But enough evidence is enough to put someone away. Such a shame this wasn't the case when the evil man was alive. But to the daughter Jennifer although I can't imagine what you and the rest of family went and are going through. I hope there is some comfort that you know in your heart what happened to your mum. At least you know she didn't run away or commit suicide. Not leaving you guys intentionally. So sorry you didn't get to see justice done.
I'm convinced that piece of shit hurt Pamela. And I don't think she got out of the car on her own, either. He either made that up for his "story", or he kicked her out of the car, followed her and then did something to her. He was about to lose control of her; she was done- was divorcing him, she had the 💜 of her kids, was beautiful and had a new career & future to look forward to and I bet he couldn't stand that! Add to that the fact that he got rid of her stuff after a month as if he *knew* she wasn't coming back and had her pager and it looks all bad for him. I hope his daughter Jennifer can find out one day what happened or just find her mom so she can somewhat grieve and move on.
it's so common someone goes missing after an argument with their spouse/boyfriend girlfriend, and the cops either don't check into until later ,or there's not enough prof to charge anyone. so sad anyone dies. i'm sure none of the sub-divisions and even the school were'nt there in 1993
You are correct, it wasn't develop ed at the time....there was nothing in that area then but a abandoned church. These roads were just dirt service roads at the time.
He def did it. He was losing control over her and abuse is all about control. It is well-described in the literature that victims are at greatest risk of being murdered by their abuser in the time period immediately after they leave them. She hadn't technically left yet, but divorce was going to happen and on top of that she was completing her degree. She didn't need him.
I had this happen to me. I had a girlfriend walk/hitchhike home from 45 miles away. She walked away from me at a flea market. I was worried. She was fine.
Why wasn't the car impounded and thoroughly searched by the cops because they might not have believed them at first but the daughter said that the step dad sold the vehicle 30 days after she went missing will you would think that the cops would have impounded it as for evidence until she is found.
Check out www.historicaerials.com for old satellite images. Just looking at the image from 1992, which is the closest year they have for that time period, there was basically nothing around that immediate vicinity except desert and mountains.
What time did Grandma find Jack eating the sandwich? What time did he get home? If he was picked up at 2:00 a.m., it would be interesting to know the exact timeline to know how much time had passed.
What the hell! I've seen people put away for life with less circumstantial evidence than this. Bad police department.
73rd lol sorry bud I slept in lol
Mitch, whew worried about you lol.
+Hannah Elorie lol thanks for caring
Haha.. just happy to see you here Mitch. :-)
Was the husband ever asked to take a polygraph test? If not, why not??
No they treated the case like it was a domestic disturbance call. Husband and wife arguing nothing more.
+Jennifer Stafford thanks! What a shame, the police definitely dropped the ball. Just asking the husband to take a polygraph could have helped answer some questions...
I’d like to see on the map where the husband worked in relation to their home. What was the time frame from pick-up until he arrived home. That would help narrow a search target.
Having the pager is significant sign of guilt. No one gives that up, and guy knew the could "ping" locate her with it.
in almost every case,the last person to see the missing person ,is the one who is involved with the disappearance.My heart goes out to the children of this woman,and I would bet that the husband lost his temper a little beyond what he expected and with the vast desert,until a person hiking or someone that is in the desert for some reason,such as riding a mini bike as in the mcStays.
I wonder WHY Pamela would pick him up at 2am from work when he was someone she wanted to divorce....
kismet valk they were married and divorced several times. She is my aunt
The thing with him selling the car and putting her stuff in storge is very supious....