Thumbs up to Livewire. I live in one of the most remote cities in the world (ask Gene Simmons & Paul Stanley) and I can purchase a Livewire 6 days a week. Can't complain about that.
I get where you are going with this, trust me I do. However, I want to clarify some of what you shared (disclosure: my wife and I own two Ribelles). Energica recommends you charge to 100%, not 80%, so the battery is properly balanced overnight. The confusion might be that 80% is recommended for long-term storage (months of not riding). The Energica doesn’t go into limp mode until you are really-really low (I don’t even know how low). For example, yesterday Saturday, Sep 24th my wife I rode back from Orlando home (55 miles) at a constant 75 mph. I kept it going at 75 mph all the way to my front door when I arrived with 4% left (she is lighter and arrived with 9%). In almost two years of ownership, we’ve never had a problem riding from 100% to near 0%, charging back to 100%, and riding back home. Range wise we get about 95 miles at 75 mph on the highway and about 120-140 miles on spirited back road riding (40-60 mph). My record is a 157-mile ride when I went riding with a local cruiser riding group (those cruiser guys go quite slow at times). Yes, I do have GPS tracks I can share to validate these claims. Energica charge times 0-100% vary because of the philosophical approach to how they approach charging. Rather than setting a maximum lower charging rate (12.6kW for Zero, or 19-20kW until 40% for Harley); they allow the battery to go as high as it can take it for as long as it can take it. A fresh cold battery can charge at 24kW from 0% to about 90%, then taper down to 15KW until 95-97%, and then taper down to 5kW for the balancing portion at the end. But a hot battery (imagine you were doing the highway bit I mentioned above) will charge at 15-ish Kw (this can vary thermally) and taper down earlier as necessary to maintain battery integrity. Thus, charging times can be from 1 hour to maybe 1.5 hours depending if it is the 1st or 3rd charge of your day. Therefore, you hear simplified statements like “about an hour” when trying to quickly explain how fast it charges, because it is a complex answer. But the fact remains the the Energica does charge ‘to the top’ and let you run it to ‘the bottom’ all day long; it is designed to do that as many cross-country riders have shown. Regarding stability control, the Energica Ribelle (RS or non-RS model) does have a Bosch 6-axis stability control system - same exact one that is in your LiveWire actually. Older Eva models (before 2020) did not have this, which might be the source of your information. In addition, Energica has the patended eABS system that LiveWire did not license, which prevents rear tire slippage prior to the actual slippage by reducing electronic throttle in advance of traction loss. Remember, the Bosch system kicks in only AFTER some traction loss has started. This combination of both Bosch 6-axis traction control and eABS system adds to the confidence and stability of the Energica. Finally, your discussion on centrifugal force and rotational inertia is hitting in the right direction, but missing the key benefit. The reason the LiveWire is so nimble is because the motor is sideways, so the motor doesn’t add to the centrifugal force of the rotating tires requiring more effort to lean. Yes, the sideways rotational intertia still has an effect; but it is not as big as Zero or Energica where the motor rotates in the same direction as the tires. Energica does offer optional carbon wheels to reduce the wheel weight and improve cornering performance (very popular with track riders). However, the statements you heard about Energica addressing the motor’s centrifugal force in their new motor are two fold. The RS uses a newer ‘smaller’ EMCE motor which has lower rotational impact (though still there) and to a much larger scale the new Energica Experia motorcycle that ships to dealers this October. This new 3rd generation motor rotates backwards (through use of an extra direction changing gear) thus cancelling out its centrifugal force against the bikes own spinning wheels. The effect is day and night, making the bike as nimble feeling as a motorcycle half its weight (we got to test ride it two weeks ago and our jaws dropped). Hope this clarifies some of it all. If you are ever in Florida… let’s ride!
Hi Rick. I appreciate your participation. Let's start with the easy stuff first. Energica does not have a "6-axis-IMU." It's another misdirect. What they really have is traction control with "6 levels of intervention." Something that is completely different and marketed in a deceptive way to fool customers about what they are really getting. eABS is Energica's version of LiveWire's Torque Slip Control. It only keeps the regen from skidding the back tire. Nothing else. Energica has Bosch ABS. It does not have Bosch Stability Control or what is often referred to as Cornering ABS. In my opinion, a 6-axis-IMU is an important piece of safety equipment. I did a video about it: ruclips.net/video/bCCbUyvXNxM/видео.html Notice that the BMW with the 6-axis-IMU does not crash in the corner when the rider mashes the brakes and the Honda without the 6-axis-IMU crashes. It's amazing technology. You can mash the brakes in a corner and the bike won't fall down or run wide. It's probably not a big issue for you because there're no corners in Florida ;) In regard to charging to 100%, riding to 0% and then charging again to 100%. The issue with Energica is that the battery pack gets too hot. The misdirect is that Energica hides the battery temperature from the rider by not displaying the battery temperature on the dash or in any other place where the rider can see it. You have had this problem yourself and posted on Face Book how to make a DIY gauge to monitor battery temperature on an Energica: facebook.com/groups/210803326383780/permalink/868390283958411/ As far as I can tell, Energica solved this problem with their 3rd generation bikes. That's why recently, an Energica captured the record time from LiveWire for a coast-to-coast Canon Ball Run. That doesn't change the fact that Energica has a few hundred older bikes out there that can't make the trip. In my video, I discuss "Rotational Inertia" as it pertains to the acceleration of the motorcycle. Giampiero Testoni (CTO at Energica) agreed with me when he said, "The advantages of the new engine are not only measured in lower weight but also in a different distribution of masses." www.epaddock.it/en/il-nuovo-motore-della-motoe-2022-analisi-e-caratteristiche/ In regard to my reference to "Angular Momentum." It's not just the spinning inertia resisting lateral movement. It's that laterally moving a spinning mass creates a completely different vector in a different direction according to the "thumb rule" I show in my diagram. On Vance Strader's (CTO at LiveWire) LinkedIn page, there is reference to "Developed suspension analysis software for vehicle handling optimization." www.linkedin.com/in/vstrader/ Although, this is complete speculation on my part, I think LiveWire is using software that Vance developed which models all the things that you can't see. Like vector forces from all of the rotating parts of a motorcycle. I think LiveWire has a simulation than models every spinning part on the bike. Not only the RPM, but, the acceleration and deceleration of every part. I think this kind of thing was done at Buell as well when Vance was there. I'm sure that modern day computer technology is allowing LiveWire to tune their bikes to a much greater degree than ever before. It is my hunch that the electric motorcycles of the future will have handling and power unimaginable today. Lastly, I like Energica motorcycles. The problem is that they don't have the money, the talent, the infrastructure or the distribution channels to be a winning player in the electric motorcycle space. That's why they are starting to do side jobs for other companies to develop electric power trains. They know the writing is on the wall. Tomorrow, LiveWire is going public on NYSE and looking for a $1.7 billion valuation. Even if they are successful tomorrow, the future is still not guaranteed. Lastly, I really think you and your wife should consider wearing gloves when you ride. It's great that you guys are wearing helmets when you don't have to, but, gloves are important too.
@@freedomiseverything Hey, thanks for your investment in a reply. Above and beyond. I get now what you are saying about the Bosch system. Energica’s current VCU AI is so involved with the Bosch ABS system that while achieving lean-angle safety braking capabilities through tire speed computation - you are right is not the same thing as the LiveWire’s Bosch Advanced MSC. The forthcoming Experia will use the new Cornering Bosch 9.3 system which introduces new combined safety braking (instead of just braking a single tire as the previous gen Bosch MSC, it now can combine both tires for improved results); so there is that safety evolution coming. There is a temperature display on the dash, but it is just three colors (so not super useful). Since that post of mine we’ve found how to access the engineering screen where you can monitor actual temperatures (motor, inverter, and battery separately). That has helped riders understand the relationship between hard riding, fast charging, and battery temperature. Some riders have found that they can get more consistent multiple-charges by limiting the initial battery charge to 15kW (similar to the max average speed on a LiveWire I believe) and not letting it peak to the max. Maybe a case of ‘giving the riders too much control’? The EMCE motor you quoted Giampiero on and was used for those record runs is the previous 2nd generation motor. The Experia has a newer, much smaller, backwards rotating 3rd gen motor (‘smaller with more potential power’ we’ve been told) which counters the forces of forward rotating motors and the rotating tires themselves. I was told that we will see this motor fully unlocked on future versions of the current lineup. I, like you, am very excited for LiveWire’s future and hope their backend merger into the stock market provides ample funding and future growth. They have a great product and great potential. However, your dismal picture of Energica’s funding is not accurate. They are backed by CRP, a multinational company, and now also by Ideanomics. Not billions, but collectively these are over 300-million-dollar companies (I don't have details on all of CRPs divisions so not sure how much over). Having spent some time in Italy at their HQ, they are definitely not hurting financially. The side-ventures of ‘Energica Inside’ have more to do with their excessive engineering capacity while they focus on expanding their manufacturing capacity (they recently added a 2nd building doubling the manufacturing capacity, and then even more recently doubled their core factory size - a little confusing, but basically doubled their factory space twice in a one-year period). New separate location building will build Experias and the new doubling of original factory will focus on current motorcycle lines. They also have a third partner who handles the motor and inverter manufacturing, whose parent is the same company that backs FormulaE, but I’m not totally clear on the details of that partnership. Regarding gloves… we pretty much always wear gloves. Maybe you saw a pic of us not wearing them or some clip while moving bikes around? We just moved on from our previous worn-out ones to Held’s new 2-in-1 gloves which we really like. We also wear kevlar pants, armored jackets, and Schuberth C5 helmets.
The initial charge rate on the LiveWire is 20 kW where it remains until about 40%. The gloves comment came from the video of when you and your wife both road tested the LiveWire. I hope Energica appreciates the asset you and you wife are to their company. You guys are living the lifestyle and setting a great example for others.
@@freedomiseverything Ahh, yes. That was a relatively slow ride and I think it was super hot. One of those 'f-it' rare moments. Really loved how nimble the LiveWire feels (I've since test ridden it a couple more times). If I was going to keep multiple electric motorcycles - I'd definitely have one in my garage.
@@freedomiseverything Yes, what I meant is that the 'average' for a whole charge is closer to 15kW (13.6 kWh added in about an hour). Ignoring the last balancing bit, it averages to about 15kW overall.
This is exactly the reason i chose Livewire over other brands... Additionally, The Livewire is more nimble and more of a solidly built bike, You can feel the quality difference. And when it comes to EV's quality is everything!! Especially in regards to battery management and quality.
They have a Del Mar on display at the Malibu Experience Center right now. Today, I spent about an hour looking at the bike very closely. I think the component quality is equal to or exceeding a LiveWire ONE. For example, it has a Brembo master cylinder on the front brake. It's got the hand controls off of the Panamerica. It's got rebound and compression damping on the front forks. The wheels have a very interesting spoke pattern that I have never seen before and they're stamped with an Harley-Davidson logo. It's got thick handlebars just like the LiveWire ONE. The paint and the finish on the metal parts is perfect, just like on the LiveWire ONE. The Del Mar is no longer on a pedestal. It's on the floor on a Pit Bull rear stand at the back of the showroom. There are four bar stools nearby. People would just come in, sit on the stools and just keep starring at the bike. It has a very captivating presence.
Another key point is that the Livewire is available worldwide. All other brands are not. Most of them are startups and what I essentially see as a hobby business. HD was the first worldwide mass production manufacturer to make an electric bike. Here in Australia it was up until recently, the only electric bike you could buy. Zero and Energica are imported privately through Australian Electric Motorcycle Co. and they have spent a year attempting to agree with government regulations to allow them to sell the bikes registered on the road. Not just an expensive toy to be used on private property.
Energica EVA Ribelle RS owner here. You absolutely can charge these bikes to full and ride them pretty hard down to 5%. Below 5% you ought to be off the freeway nearing your destination anyway. I did Folsom to Santa Rosa the long way through the mountains, arrived with 3%. Charged to full in 75 mins while we ate. Took the freeway route back home and arrived with 2% battery. $4 for the charge in Santa Rosa. Bike is awesome fun too! Check out the new Experia. $30k for an Energica? Power and performance that rivals Ducati's Superbike for plenty under 30k. Let's see LiveWire's sport tourer!
The Energica "RS" models shipped the end of 2021. They are the first Energica motorcycles that can make it through a few charge cycles without overheating the battery pack. I'm not bashing the RS. I'm bashing Energica for taking a decade to solve the problem and for shipping almost 1,000 bikes in that period of time that can't be fixed.
@@freedomiseverything Dude that's not a fair assessment when the Live wire has benefited greatly from the experimentation of the others. Any energica released after 2019 has traction control, can go through multiple charge cycles, and the numbers quoted are pretty accurate, and Livewire was released after that. Your analysis and critique on Zero is fine, but Energica is doing good work, and is probably a better package overall than the Livewire at the moment. At least on par in handling with equal or better range depending on the battery size. I mean you speak of honesty, come on dude.
Great vid !!! .. livewire is an exellent and smart bike !.. the new energica experia is definitely stepping up to the livewire .. .. i wish you good runs !!
Great video. Since I do own a 2022 Zero SR/S, and owned it for over year, put over 16K mikes on it, please allow me to provide my feedback. I got free downloadable upgrades. 10% extended rage (battery shows 110% vs 100% when fully charged), 10% faster charging ( only a matter of minutes, I don’t see the improvement) and Parking mode (reverse is handy). I put the bigger wind screen on it. Level one charger, from 13% batter to 110% takes about 8-9 hours, level 2 about 3 1/2 hours. I do get about 140 miles range on the freeway driving 60-65 mph. I haven’t ridden on the street much, but when I did, I went 70 miles and had 67% battery left. The regen helps a lot! I’ve drained the battery on the freeway to 3% and still had full power, no limp mode. I can’t speak about combined riding because I mainly ride freeway.
I'm in the UK and given the choice id go for a livewire over the others, atm though we only have the harly version at £29k which is crazy overpriced imho. Let me be 100% clear, the price is the ONLY reason I dont have one. I can live with the range and charging issues. The other issue now is price of electricity , at standard tariff of 50pence k/wh it barely makes sense over petrol, given that the price is going up and getting low off peak rates is not so easy this could kill the whole ev thing before it gets going. My ebikes on the other hand do 50 miles easily to a kWh and way cheaper than petrol. Thsnks for the real world info though, defo reinforces my belief in the livewire one being the best choice currently .
Electric Vehicle Man recently made a video about it, he compared various companies in the UK for road chargers. Of course if you charge at home you still have way better prices. I would suggest you to look at it, it's interesting and could help you see the situation in UK better.
@@IIARROWS I watched it , very interesting, also watch quite a few others inc a scotish chap on motorcycles some of them electric and touring on these things did not look fun OR cheap, in fact touring on a r1200 was cheaper. But charging at home on the right tarrif is still cheaper by far so commuting and local rides still very viable atm. Things can change and WILL change and paykng £29k for a bike is too much for me. Uncertain times so need to be frugal.
@@FlyingFun. I know, I bought the Energica only because it was the demo at 18 k€. And if you are talking about Teapot one, I have his video in my watching list for a week, I've yet to watch it AHAHAH.
@@FlyingFun. in holland 85% of energica buyers buy it for their company.. so they get tax back and a tax write of resulting in an almost halfprice situation .. and as most of us are small busines owners by law . Its common ..
I disagree on your disagreement on Energica. My Energica reaches the claimed ranged, and I'm still really jerky with riding it so I can improve it. And the same for charging (no direct experience, but from other like Sam to from New Zeroland). About "LIMP" mode, it's false. There is a gradual limitation on power each 10%, which means the bike accelerate slightly slower, but you don't get a reduced speed limit (unless we are talking above legal speeds). I can't tell you I've rode it to 200 km/h at 50%, that would be illegal to do. The reduce in power is bound to happen anyway, if you test with your Livewire you are bound to find a similar results. It's an effect of battery, which is going to lose voltage as it discharges, and less voltage means less power to the motor. Also, power and torque is still a metric with electric, I don't understand your point on it. Torque is a force a wheel has to impress on the road to move the vehicle forward, and power is a result of that force...
I'm also not sure what you mean by "not having stability control". If you disable TC you will wheelie. If you mean it doesn't dynamically reduce regen power when it detects loss of traction, then yes, only HD has it for now. It's neat, but that's only difference.
In the case of LiveWire, there is not difference in power or acceleration all the way down to 0% At 1%, it will do 0-60 in 3 seconds. Horse Power and Torque are measured on a dyno at a fixed speed. It does not take into account how much energy it will take to accelerate the mass of the drive train as the bike accelerates in the real world. On an electric motorcycle, the only thing that matters is how fast the bike will accelerate.
Here is the info. Make sure you watch the videos in this link. It's amazing stuff: www.bosch-mobility-solutions.com/en/solutions/driving-safety/motorcycle-stability-control/
@@freedomiseverything Then they broke the laws of physics, or they cannot measure the battery state of charge. The charge is read from the voltage output, that's going to drop, and with less voltage there is less power for the motor. I would love to see all the tests done. Both acceleration and dynamometer test for torque. There is an alternative which is basically a waste of potential across the board, and it's not really a merit either.
@@IIARROWS I believe the usable battery capacity is lower than actual. Say actual is 24kWh, but usable is 20-22kWh. This way you can have full power/torque even for 1% state of charge.
I have a 2020 zero SRS and I only get 65 miles at 70 mph. I use it to commute to work each day less than 20 miles total. This bike is a very expensive short range commute bike. It’s a fun bike but range is a major issue for sure.
Thanks for the interesting post. I've been riding a ZERO S for 2 years and I'm very happy with the bike. I get about 160km far when I do a tour. Charging takes 2 hours, but the type 2 charger must have 22KW. I have the charge tank, but the larger ones have a fast charger. I like the Livewire One but unfortunately it is not available in Germany and the Harley costs over €30,000. It would be nice if Livewire would build a tourer and sell it in Germany.
My SR/F does have level 2 built in (3kw standard, so does the SR/S, my Premium trim has 6KW). I agree the city number is silly on Zeros, they just don't go as far as Zero says unless you are riding at 15mph. I do regularly get 100+ miles combined however, that's my expected range where/how I ride (30% highway, 70% back roads at 40-50mph). The SR/F is a great bike for my needs. I test rode a Live Wire a couple of years ago, and it is a very solidly built high performing bike, but at the time it was 8K more than the SR/F, that's changed with the Live Wire One pricing. If fast charging were more readily available, I'd consider a switch to the Live Wire One, but here (Northeast), fast charging is just not that available yet.
Need to update the slide about charge time. SRS has level 2 built in, the charge tank actually increases charge capacity to ~12kW/hr, which reduces charge time. In current firmware this is about 90 minutes.
I have an older ZeroSR and on the acceleration from a dead stop the power/torque is muted till the bike gets going about the distance of an intersection then the power kicks in...kinda like turbo lag. I think they did this to prevent folks from back flipping the bike from a stand still. As for the rotational mass. I find the ZeroSR's cornering response is very quick compared to ICE even a small displacement like my old CB300R....it actually feels quick like my SH150 scooter. I do feel more mass of bike but less gyroscopic forces....kinda of an old feeling at first as if the bike falls over really quick almost unnerving and unstable feeling, kinda like a sport bike tire vs a touring tire where the tour tire crown shape is more round while the sport tire crown shape is more angular for quicker lean over.
@@freedomiseverything I actually prefer Level-2 charging on the bike due to the greater availability of stations. It's hard to find level 3 these days unless I'm driving my Tesla. The best bike would have both Level 2 & 3 going forward.
It's good to clarify things since spec sheets tend to be optimistic, but what you call "actual range" on the SR/S is what I get on my 2020 SR/F at highway speed. Doing mixed-riding I get a stable 100 miles. Also I can charge in 1 hour with the Rapid charger since I get 12 kW charge speed when plugged on 22 kW station that are everywhere in Europe. I believe the 2.5 hours you mention is specific to the US market
I can't speak to charging speeds for a Zero in Europe. However, your math does not work. Here is the real story on Zero and their bologna about range and charging speeds: ruclips.net/video/WLO02psoHac/видео.html
@@freedomiseverything it’s actual riding experience, not math. The link from Sam Baker is related to the DSR/X, not relevant. Your numbers don’t match real life experience, and I’m on the conservative side
I get the same, 100 miles on normal riding and around 75-80 miles highway (SR/F). I'm not sure where the 84 came from unless it's mostly highway. I agree the city number from Zero is silly, you're not going to get 160+ miles unless your riding at 20mph all the time.
Good analysis. My experience with a Zero DS: 1) I get decent range on my Zero DS. In line with what is advertised. I get about 220-250km outside highway,.And 160-180km with highway. Which is fine for me. I need a break after 2 hours of riding anyway. Maybe it is not good on the SR/F because it is more heavy than the DS. Maybe the battery is to small for the size of the bike. 2) A do agree that the zero's aren't the best for fast charging. The level 2 charging is not that fast. If that is important to you, you need to go to bike with DC fast charging. For me the 6kw charge tank is good enough. But DC charging would really be a lot better. It is clear that the future is higher voltage systems. Like harley and energica.
@@freedomiseverything I charge at home 99% of the time. I have no need for fast charging. For me the zero DS is also more than powerful enough. So I have no intention to pay extra for a better bike. But I agree the harley and energica are better. It is a pitty zero did not provide the option to replace the standard 1.3kw chargers on the S and DS with a 3-phase 3x3.3 kw option (like diginow once provided). It is technically feasible. It would not replace the storage compartiment. And 10kw would be close enough to DC fast charging. I think the 1-phase 6kw charge tank is fine, but is not good enough to compete with DC fast charging for those who need to fast charge regularly. So I think it is find zero wants to stick with AC charging, but they should add powerful chargers to the bike and a 3-phase version for Europe.
Harley probably doesn't underestimate it's range based on the weight of an average Harley owner: +250 pounds! So if you are a 175 pound rider on the Harley, your range will be higher than the average.
I've been watching the Ultraviollete F77 for some time now. They are part of an army of companies that make up spec sheets, take deposits, make excuses for being late and then deliver a watered down product for more money than promised. Sondors is a recent example of this phenomenon. Chinese and Indian motorcycle companies are focusing primarily on achieving the lowest possible price. They receive media support for this strategy from people like Micah Toll. I am most interested in motorcycle companies focused on safety, innovation and quality who deliver high value production electric motorcycles to the public. There are only three, Energica, LiveWire and Zero (in alphabetical order).
One thing about Ducati: next year they are replacing Energica for MotoE, so they will have a bike. Will see of they'll have something for the public in 2023 or 2024. They WILL be the fourth manufacturer coming with models. Triumph, besides having prototypes, they declared they don't have plans. Kawasaki somehow think an hybrid is feasible, but they have declared plans to have an hybrid for each category in 2025. So they will probably be the fifth (if we count hybrid as "electric").
Ducati has a problem in that their electric bike is doing slower lap times than last years Energica. There are also thermal management issues as yet unresolved. I doubt Ducati would dare release a production bike that is slower on the track than an Energica. When they finally get a design that works, it will be another 2 years till it's in dealer showrooms.
Ducati already stated that their MotoE bike is NOT planned to become a road bike. When/if they do an electric road bike; it will be an entirely new project (taking into account their MotoE learnings). So you are looking at 2-4 years down the road minimum. Ride today; get something good; trade up later if you like that Ducati releases.
Nice ad for Livewire. It's funny you made a video about lies and also lied in it. Nice. Specifically, charging time of the Zero with the charge tank is 1.5 hours, not 2.5 hours, and then secondly, the Zero is faster than the Livewire (slightly) until the batteries get low.
Strong words. However, math does not lie. Assuming that the Zero charges at a full 6.6 kW for the duration of the charge (which it does not), a 17.3 kWh battery divided by 6.6 kW charging speed is 2.6212 hours of charging time. Not the 1.5 you claim. You need the charge tank to get to 11 kW. However, the charge tank does not work on most chargers and you have to carry around an adapter cable. There is also video evidence from Zero owners on RUclips about the slow charging: ruclips.net/video/WLO02psoHac/видео.html Zero also lies about the top speed of the SR/F. They claim 125 MPH. The real number is 118 MPH: ruclips.net/video/YfnKHnP7yv4/видео.html LiveWire claims a top speed of 110 MPH. They real number is 114 MPH: ruclips.net/video/I8TEXEtFMjQ/видео.html LiveWire under promises and over delivers. Zero over promises and under delivers. That's not a LiveWire advertisement. That's the facts.
@@freedomiseverything You said with the charge tank, that's ~12kW charging; check your math. 118 > 114 so the Zero's faster (although I meant 0-60, etc.) I'm not specifically arguing your overpromising claim. Just pointing out that you're not using true facts...which was the focus of the title of your video.
Well you are kinda painting our bikes with rose colored glasses. Our bikes have bigger batteries then we get to use. They never charge to 100. Not clear if they let you run to zero or just shut down. You could argue a limp mode might save you a tow. I own a livewire and love it. But they are all sketchy. We just get to enjoy sketchy Harley dealers. Incompatible ccs chargers. They all have issues ours is really well done.
@@IIARROWS There are compatibility issues. Early on a couple brand CCS chargers had issues with early LiveWires. Eventually most of them rented LiveWires and fixed their issues. Though, until a couple months ago LiveWires still had compatibility problems with some of the CCS chargers in Florida, but recently that vendor rented a LiveWire and was able to fix them. CCS is a standard that charging stations don't apply equally.
@14:32 if you reread the article you grabbed these performance graphs from, including where the author answers comments about torque, you will see there is no secret sauce, and the graphs are not meaningless. If you go further up in the article they state “Comparing the two at a dyno drum speed of 55 mph, we found the Zero produces 80 hp and 120 pound-feet at 3,500 rpm, while the Harley dealt 91 hp and 68 pound-feet at 7,000 rpm.” 1. This means the Harley overall reduction ratio is exactly twice that of the Zero. 2. That means the relative torque to the rear wheels is 120 lb-ft for the zero and 136 lb-ft for the Harley. Actual torque to rear wheel at 55 mph is 528 lb-ft for the Zero and 598 lb-ft for the Livewire. 3. Since the rear tire size is the same, it means the livewire forward thrust will be 12.7% more than the Zero, which is more than enough to compensate for the bike being 42 lbs heavier. So as long as you dont race someone 50 lbs lighter than you on a Zero you can probably beat him. It’s really a simple fact that the gear ratio is what allowed the Harley to accelerate harder at at low to mid speeds (up to 80 mph) at which point the Zero starts to pull harder, which is why it has a higher trap speed even though needing more time. A simple ratio change on the Zero would have it smoking the Livewire at every step, but they decided to go for higher top speed (124 mph) instead. If you change the Livewire final drive ratio to go 140 mph @14,000 rpm then it will be slower accelerating. And the actual top speed would only change if the controller uses motor rpm for speed control and no extra sensors that can override it. But the engineers at Livewire have probably got it set for best overall performance and reliability within useable speeds.
The LiveWire ONE has has a small, liquid cooled, high-voltage motor that spins at 15,000+ RPM. The Zero has a large, heavy, air-cooled, low-voltage motor that spins at 7,000 RPM. The LiveWire ONE smokes a Zero SR/F at 80 mph if the riders are of similar weight. You are completely missing the point. Torque has no component of time and therefore, cannot measure rotating inertia over time. Let's talk gas bikes for a moment. If you lighten the crankshaft, you do not increase power or torque. But, the bike runs faster at the drag-strip. LIveWire engineers used this principle to make the LiveWire ONE accelerate more quickly. Energica figured out what LIveWire was doing and has incorporated these principles in their new bikes.
@@freedomiseverything , you are over complicating a simple fact. You are assuming that something that needs to accelerate to twice as many rpm, turn a 90 degree gearbox, and then the rear tire has less rotational mass than a larger diameter rotor that spins half as fast with absolutely no facts to back it up. Liquid cooling in itself doesn’t change the numbers stated. That may come into play after several runs when the zero throttles back due to high temp. But thats not part of the “why the Livewire is quicker than the zero” discussion. The only way you can prove your theory is have both bikes on their centerstand with no traction control on and time how many seconds it takes to spin to 110 mph. But any engineer can understand the Cycle World dyno results and know the Livewire will be quicker, without any reduction in rotational inertia. I already went step by step to reiterate what the article stated. Its really simple math. Now IF the math showed the Zero should be quicker when its not, thats when introducing other factors might be important. But the basic motor performance and the overall drive ratios give enough data to show exactly what happens. The Livewire quicker off the start, the Zero quicker at high speeds.
The LiveWire is quicker than the Zero all the way up to its 110 MPH governor. Let me try to explain it in a different way. If you put carbon wheels on a motorcycle, it does not change HP and torque on the dyno. However, the bike will be quicker 0-60. What do you think made the difference?
Here's the CTO at Energica explaining why a smaller lighter rotor reduces enertia in the drive train and why it's a good thing: ruclips.net/video/JnRDWn89ADI/видео.html
@@freedomiseverything , using the data from the April 6, 2020 Cycle World article which has the performance graphs as well as acceleration times, the Livewire has more torque at the rear wheels up to about 10,000 rpm, which corresponds to 5,000 rpm of the Zero. Since the reduction ratio of the Livewire is exactly twice that of the zero, then you simply double the torque figure given at each 2X multiple. 48*2 (96 lb-ft) for the Livewire @ 10,000 rpm (80 mph) and 102 lb-ft @ 5000 rpm (80 mph) for the Zero. This is one clue that the zero will accelerate faster than the Livewire from 80 MPH up, but Cycle world’s fastest roll on test was 60 to 80, in which case you can see they are already neck and neck (1.71 seconds vs 1.73 seconds). However from the 0-60 and 0-100 times we can obtain the 60-100 times. The Livewire needed 4.23 seconds to go from 60 mph to 100 mph. The Zero needed 4.05 seconds to go from 60 mph to 100 mph. This agrees with the torque curves on the graphs. Another clue is the trap speeds, unfortunately the Livewire was already at max speed (110.6 mph) while the Zero was still below its 124 mph top speed, and since there is no graph showing the 1/4 mile race it cant be proven that the Zero accelerates faster from 80 mph on. However since the Zero does beat the Livewire 60-100, it stand to reason it would beat it 60-110 and obviously 60-124 since the Livewire cant go that fast. What you are saying about rotating mass is not needed. The Livewire pulls much harder in the beginning up to about 80mph where the Zero pulls harder. All the data shown in the article supports this without any secret sauce needed. The two bikes drivetrains are so different that you cant make the assumption than the Livewire rotational mass can be accelerated from 0-14,000 rpm faster than Zero’s rotational mass can ve accelerated 0-7000 rpm. Yes, we all know the theory that if you replace a wheel with a lighter wheel, regardless of the material, it will have a slight effect, but the tire is the mass further out and has the bigger impact on rotational mass. Putting a carbon fiber wheel on the Zero would make it run a little closer but a simple rear sprocket change will make it as quick as the Livewire, however there are tradeoffs just like when changing rear end gears from 3.55:1 to 3.73:1. Of course it accelerates quicker but there are tradeoffs. If you change your cast aluminum wheels for carbon fiber wheels you probably wont even notice the difference in performance. You might drop 6 pounds and it might behave like a 10 lb reduction, but the easiest and healthiest way to lose 10 pounds on the motor cycle is lose 10 lbs of body fat. The general consensus on carbon wheels on a motorcycle is nobody wants that on a daily driver. The cons outweigh the pros unless you absolutely need it for a competition bike.
I really need some secret sauce as well. Hahaha. R u sure livewire didn’t hire u to come up with Fun frases like that. :) thank you again for your honest Sir. May God keep u that way.
Many of my videos are very critical of LiveWire. LiveWire does promote You Tubers on their LiveWire You Tube channel (including Yammie Noob). However, I don't think I'll ever make the cut! Bottom line, I'm not in it for the money, the fame, the number of subscribers, or a job. I'm trying to help steer the ship by raising awareness among, "The powers that be," about important issues related to the success of electric motorcycles.
Darned nice video. LiveWire should pay you for your endorsement. I wonder if LiveWire will get rid of that bevel gear they engineered to give it a jet engine sound. Does that noise bother you?
I think the main reason for the bevel gear was probably to drop the engine below the axles for lower weight distribution. I can hear the bike at lower speeds. At higher speeds, I can't hear it. However, I know that it sounds like a jet engine at higher speeds to the cars around me. A bit of a side note about the quietness of the bike; I can hear the tires on the road in sharp fast corners in the canyons. You don't get that on a gas bike...
@@freedomiseverything My wife and I each rode the original LiveWire when Harley was touring a truckload of them around the country for demo rides probably way back in 2014 if memory serves me.. I haven't ridden the LiveWire they are actually selling. The prototypes that we rode were much smaller otherwise my wife would have never gotten her feet on the ground. I remember them having one of the prototypes up on a stand that had rollers for the back wheel to spin on. It was under a tent and that noise from the bevel gear was really loud. I'm glad to hear you write that it is not that obtrusive while riding. What I am really looking forward to is some test ride reports of the Del Mar vs the LiveWire. It has been a very long time since I have purchased a new bike and I want an E-motorcycle for sure. I will not buy another ICE powered motorcycle. I am just so sick of gas stations and oil changes and all of the other ICE maintenance issues. I own a Buell and two Harleys currently. Thanks for the videos. I will never buy a Zero with how they seem to think screwing their customers is just so OK so long as they make a buck doing so.
That's what my main concern was after a 45min test ride. Then I took it on a day trip across the Swiss alps and totally fell in love with that StarWars sound. As @freedomiseverything stated, you really only notice it until the wind noise takes over OR if you roll on the throttle real hard. All day on that trip I never missed the v-twin sound once.
Liverwire was definitely not honoust about "the long way up" they hide charging times and did not include that footage .. and they charged mobile with generators in the back of ice trucks .. did not paint a honoust picture of x country electric riding .!!!!.
I agree with you. However, I have met several LiveWire ONE owners who were inspired by watching the show, decided to take a test ride, and then bought the bike.
@@freedomiseverything the bike is terrific ... the advertising very dishonoust .. you will never be able to go offroad like that without a humongues support team .. and they did not show this ... bike is great though ..
Man, this is a great channel. Very much appreciate your work. Cheers!
Thumbs up to Livewire. I live in one of the most remote cities in the world (ask Gene Simmons & Paul Stanley) and I can purchase a Livewire 6 days a week. Can't complain about that.
I get where you are going with this, trust me I do. However, I want to clarify some of what you shared (disclosure: my wife and I own two Ribelles).
Energica recommends you charge to 100%, not 80%, so the battery is properly balanced overnight. The confusion might be that 80% is recommended for long-term storage (months of not riding). The Energica doesn’t go into limp mode until you are really-really low (I don’t even know how low). For example, yesterday Saturday, Sep 24th my wife I rode back from Orlando home (55 miles) at a constant 75 mph. I kept it going at 75 mph all the way to my front door when I arrived with 4% left (she is lighter and arrived with 9%). In almost two years of ownership, we’ve never had a problem riding from 100% to near 0%, charging back to 100%, and riding back home. Range wise we get about 95 miles at 75 mph on the highway and about 120-140 miles on spirited back road riding (40-60 mph). My record is a 157-mile ride when I went riding with a local cruiser riding group (those cruiser guys go quite slow at times). Yes, I do have GPS tracks I can share to validate these claims.
Energica charge times 0-100% vary because of the philosophical approach to how they approach charging. Rather than setting a maximum lower charging rate (12.6kW for Zero, or 19-20kW until 40% for Harley); they allow the battery to go as high as it can take it for as long as it can take it. A fresh cold battery can charge at 24kW from 0% to about 90%, then taper down to 15KW until 95-97%, and then taper down to 5kW for the balancing portion at the end. But a hot battery (imagine you were doing the highway bit I mentioned above) will charge at 15-ish Kw (this can vary thermally) and taper down earlier as necessary to maintain battery integrity. Thus, charging times can be from 1 hour to maybe 1.5 hours depending if it is the 1st or 3rd charge of your day. Therefore, you hear simplified statements like “about an hour” when trying to quickly explain how fast it charges, because it is a complex answer. But the fact remains the the Energica does charge ‘to the top’ and let you run it to ‘the bottom’ all day long; it is designed to do that as many cross-country riders have shown.
Regarding stability control, the Energica Ribelle (RS or non-RS model) does have a Bosch 6-axis stability control system - same exact one that is in your LiveWire actually. Older Eva models (before 2020) did not have this, which might be the source of your information. In addition, Energica has the patended eABS system that LiveWire did not license, which prevents rear tire slippage prior to the actual slippage by reducing electronic throttle in advance of traction loss. Remember, the Bosch system kicks in only AFTER some traction loss has started. This combination of both Bosch 6-axis traction control and eABS system adds to the confidence and stability of the Energica.
Finally, your discussion on centrifugal force and rotational inertia is hitting in the right direction, but missing the key benefit. The reason the LiveWire is so nimble is because the motor is sideways, so the motor doesn’t add to the centrifugal force of the rotating tires requiring more effort to lean. Yes, the sideways rotational intertia still has an effect; but it is not as big as Zero or Energica where the motor rotates in the same direction as the tires. Energica does offer optional carbon wheels to reduce the wheel weight and improve cornering performance (very popular with track riders). However, the statements you heard about Energica addressing the motor’s centrifugal force in their new motor are two fold. The RS uses a newer ‘smaller’ EMCE motor which has lower rotational impact (though still there) and to a much larger scale the new Energica Experia motorcycle that ships to dealers this October. This new 3rd generation motor rotates backwards (through use of an extra direction changing gear) thus cancelling out its centrifugal force against the bikes own spinning wheels. The effect is day and night, making the bike as nimble feeling as a motorcycle half its weight (we got to test ride it two weeks ago and our jaws dropped).
Hope this clarifies some of it all. If you are ever in Florida… let’s ride!
Hi Rick. I appreciate your participation. Let's start with the easy stuff first. Energica does not have a "6-axis-IMU." It's another misdirect. What they really have is traction control with "6 levels of intervention." Something that is completely different and marketed in a deceptive way to fool customers about what they are really getting. eABS is Energica's version of LiveWire's Torque Slip Control. It only keeps the regen from skidding the back tire. Nothing else. Energica has Bosch ABS. It does not have Bosch Stability Control or what is often referred to as Cornering ABS.
In my opinion, a 6-axis-IMU is an important piece of safety equipment. I did a video about it:
ruclips.net/video/bCCbUyvXNxM/видео.html
Notice that the BMW with the 6-axis-IMU does not crash in the corner when the rider mashes the brakes and the Honda without the 6-axis-IMU crashes. It's amazing technology. You can mash the brakes in a corner and the bike won't fall down or run wide. It's probably not a big issue for you because there're no corners in Florida ;)
In regard to charging to 100%, riding to 0% and then charging again to 100%. The issue with Energica is that the battery pack gets too hot. The misdirect is that Energica hides the battery temperature from the rider by not displaying the battery temperature on the dash or in any other place where the rider can see it. You have had this problem yourself and posted on Face Book how to make a DIY gauge to monitor battery temperature on an Energica:
facebook.com/groups/210803326383780/permalink/868390283958411/
As far as I can tell, Energica solved this problem with their 3rd generation bikes. That's why recently, an Energica captured the record time from LiveWire for a coast-to-coast Canon Ball Run. That doesn't change the fact that Energica has a few hundred older bikes out there that can't make the trip.
In my video, I discuss "Rotational Inertia" as it pertains to the acceleration of the motorcycle. Giampiero Testoni (CTO at Energica) agreed with me when he said, "The advantages of the new engine are not only measured in lower weight but also in a different distribution of masses."
www.epaddock.it/en/il-nuovo-motore-della-motoe-2022-analisi-e-caratteristiche/
In regard to my reference to "Angular Momentum." It's not just the spinning inertia resisting lateral movement. It's that laterally moving a spinning mass creates a completely different vector in a different direction according to the "thumb rule" I show in my diagram.
On Vance Strader's (CTO at LiveWire) LinkedIn page, there is reference to "Developed suspension analysis software for vehicle handling optimization."
www.linkedin.com/in/vstrader/
Although, this is complete speculation on my part, I think LiveWire is using software that Vance developed which models all the things that you can't see. Like vector forces from all of the rotating parts of a motorcycle. I think LiveWire has a simulation than models every spinning part on the bike. Not only the RPM, but, the acceleration and deceleration of every part. I think this kind of thing was done at Buell as well when Vance was there. I'm sure that modern day computer technology is allowing LiveWire to tune their bikes to a much greater degree than ever before.
It is my hunch that the electric motorcycles of the future will have handling and power unimaginable today.
Lastly, I like Energica motorcycles. The problem is that they don't have the money, the talent, the infrastructure or the distribution channels to be a winning player in the electric motorcycle space. That's why they are starting to do side jobs for other companies to develop electric power trains. They know the writing is on the wall.
Tomorrow, LiveWire is going public on NYSE and looking for a $1.7 billion valuation. Even if they are successful tomorrow, the future is still not guaranteed.
Lastly, I really think you and your wife should consider wearing gloves when you ride. It's great that you guys are wearing helmets when you don't have to, but, gloves are important too.
@@freedomiseverything Hey, thanks for your investment in a reply. Above and beyond. I get now what you are saying about the Bosch system. Energica’s current VCU AI is so involved with the Bosch ABS system that while achieving lean-angle safety braking capabilities through tire speed computation - you are right is not the same thing as the LiveWire’s Bosch Advanced MSC. The forthcoming Experia will use the new Cornering Bosch 9.3 system which introduces new combined safety braking (instead of just braking a single tire as the previous gen Bosch MSC, it now can combine both tires for improved results); so there is that safety evolution coming.
There is a temperature display on the dash, but it is just three colors (so not super useful). Since that post of mine we’ve found how to access the engineering screen where you can monitor actual temperatures (motor, inverter, and battery separately). That has helped riders understand the relationship between hard riding, fast charging, and battery temperature. Some riders have found that they can get more consistent multiple-charges by limiting the initial battery charge to 15kW (similar to the max average speed on a LiveWire I believe) and not letting it peak to the max. Maybe a case of ‘giving the riders too much control’?
The EMCE motor you quoted Giampiero on and was used for those record runs is the previous 2nd generation motor. The Experia has a newer, much smaller, backwards rotating 3rd gen motor (‘smaller with more potential power’ we’ve been told) which counters the forces of forward rotating motors and the rotating tires themselves. I was told that we will see this motor fully unlocked on future versions of the current lineup.
I, like you, am very excited for LiveWire’s future and hope their backend merger into the stock market provides ample funding and future growth. They have a great product and great potential. However, your dismal picture of Energica’s funding is not accurate. They are backed by CRP, a multinational company, and now also by Ideanomics. Not billions, but collectively these are over 300-million-dollar companies (I don't have details on all of CRPs divisions so not sure how much over). Having spent some time in Italy at their HQ, they are definitely not hurting financially. The side-ventures of ‘Energica Inside’ have more to do with their excessive engineering capacity while they focus on expanding their manufacturing capacity (they recently added a 2nd building doubling the manufacturing capacity, and then even more recently doubled their core factory size - a little confusing, but basically doubled their factory space twice in a one-year period). New separate location building will build Experias and the new doubling of original factory will focus on current motorcycle lines. They also have a third partner who handles the motor and inverter manufacturing, whose parent is the same company that backs FormulaE, but I’m not totally clear on the details of that partnership.
Regarding gloves… we pretty much always wear gloves. Maybe you saw a pic of us not wearing them or some clip while moving bikes around? We just moved on from our previous worn-out ones to Held’s new 2-in-1 gloves which we really like. We also wear kevlar pants, armored jackets, and Schuberth C5 helmets.
The initial charge rate on the LiveWire is 20 kW where it remains until about 40%.
The gloves comment came from the video of when you and your wife both road tested the LiveWire.
I hope Energica appreciates the asset you and you wife are to their company. You guys are living the lifestyle and setting a great example for others.
@@freedomiseverything Ahh, yes. That was a relatively slow ride and I think it was super hot. One of those 'f-it' rare moments. Really loved how nimble the LiveWire feels (I've since test ridden it a couple more times). If I was going to keep multiple electric motorcycles - I'd definitely have one in my garage.
@@freedomiseverything Yes, what I meant is that the 'average' for a whole charge is closer to 15kW (13.6 kWh added in about an hour). Ignoring the last balancing bit, it averages to about 15kW overall.
This is exactly the reason i chose Livewire over other brands...
Additionally, The Livewire is more nimble and more of a solidly built bike, You can feel the quality difference.
And when it comes to EV's quality is everything!! Especially in regards to battery management and quality.
They have a Del Mar on display at the Malibu Experience Center right now. Today, I spent about an hour looking at the bike very closely. I think the component quality is equal to or exceeding a LiveWire ONE. For example, it has a Brembo master cylinder on the front brake. It's got the hand controls off of the Panamerica. It's got rebound and compression damping on the front forks. The wheels have a very interesting spoke pattern that I have never seen before and they're stamped with an Harley-Davidson logo. It's got thick handlebars just like the LiveWire ONE. The paint and the finish on the metal parts is perfect, just like on the LiveWire ONE.
The Del Mar is no longer on a pedestal. It's on the floor on a Pit Bull rear stand at the back of the showroom. There are four bar stools nearby. People would just come in, sit on the stools and just keep starring at the bike. It has a very captivating presence.
Another key point is that the Livewire is available worldwide. All other brands are not. Most of them are startups and what I essentially see as a hobby business. HD was the first worldwide mass production manufacturer to make an electric bike.
Here in Australia it was up until recently, the only electric bike you could buy. Zero and Energica are imported privately through Australian Electric Motorcycle Co. and they have spent a year attempting to agree with government regulations to allow them to sell the bikes registered on the road. Not just an expensive toy to be used on private property.
Energica EVA Ribelle RS owner here. You absolutely can charge these bikes to full and ride them pretty hard down to 5%. Below 5% you ought to be off the freeway nearing your destination anyway. I did Folsom to Santa Rosa the long way through the mountains, arrived with 3%. Charged to full in 75 mins while we ate. Took the freeway route back home and arrived with 2% battery. $4 for the charge in Santa Rosa. Bike is awesome fun too! Check out the new Experia. $30k for an Energica? Power and performance that rivals Ducati's Superbike for plenty under 30k.
Let's see LiveWire's sport tourer!
The Energica "RS" models shipped the end of 2021. They are the first Energica motorcycles that can make it through a few charge cycles without overheating the battery pack. I'm not bashing the RS. I'm bashing Energica for taking a decade to solve the problem and for shipping almost 1,000 bikes in that period of time that can't be fixed.
@@freedomiseverything Dude that's not a fair assessment when the Live wire has benefited greatly from the experimentation of the others. Any energica released after 2019 has traction control, can go through multiple charge cycles, and the numbers quoted are pretty accurate, and Livewire was released after that. Your analysis and critique on Zero is fine, but Energica is doing good work, and is probably a better package overall than the Livewire at the moment. At least on par in handling with equal or better range depending on the battery size. I mean you speak of honesty, come on dude.
Excellent presentation.
Great vid !!! .. livewire is an exellent and smart bike !.. the new energica experia is definitely stepping up to the livewire .. .. i wish you good runs !!
Great video. Since I do own a 2022 Zero SR/S, and owned it for over year, put over 16K mikes on it, please allow me to provide my feedback. I got free downloadable upgrades. 10% extended rage (battery shows 110% vs 100% when fully charged), 10% faster charging ( only a matter of minutes, I don’t see the improvement) and Parking mode (reverse is handy). I put the bigger wind screen on it. Level one charger, from 13% batter to 110% takes about 8-9 hours, level 2 about 3 1/2 hours. I do get about 140 miles range on the freeway driving 60-65 mph. I haven’t ridden on the street much, but when I did, I went 70 miles and had 67% battery left. The regen helps a lot! I’ve drained the battery on the freeway to 3% and still had full power, no limp mode. I can’t speak about combined riding because I mainly ride freeway.
I'm in the UK and given the choice id go for a livewire over the others, atm though we only have the harly version at £29k which is crazy overpriced imho.
Let me be 100% clear, the price is the ONLY reason I dont have one.
I can live with the range and charging issues.
The other issue now is price of electricity , at standard tariff of 50pence k/wh it barely makes sense over petrol, given that the price is going up and getting low off peak rates is not so easy this could kill the whole ev thing before it gets going.
My ebikes on the other hand do 50 miles easily to a kWh and way cheaper than petrol.
Thsnks for the real world info though, defo reinforces my belief in the livewire one being the best choice currently .
Electric Vehicle Man recently made a video about it, he compared various companies in the UK for road chargers. Of course if you charge at home you still have way better prices.
I would suggest you to look at it, it's interesting and could help you see the situation in UK better.
@@IIARROWS I watched it , very interesting, also watch quite a few others inc a scotish chap on motorcycles some of them electric and touring on these things did not look fun OR cheap, in fact touring on a r1200 was cheaper.
But charging at home on the right tarrif is still cheaper by far so commuting and local rides still very viable atm.
Things can change and WILL change and paykng £29k for a bike is too much for me.
Uncertain times so need to be frugal.
@@FlyingFun. I know, I bought the Energica only because it was the demo at 18 k€.
And if you are talking about Teapot one, I have his video in my watching list for a week, I've yet to watch it AHAHAH.
@@IIARROWS yes that's him,
18k for the energica was a good deal.
I need to look out for deals like that.
@@FlyingFun. in holland 85% of energica buyers buy it for their company.. so they get tax back and a tax write of resulting in an almost halfprice situation .. and as most of us are small busines owners by law . Its common ..
I disagree on your disagreement on Energica.
My Energica reaches the claimed ranged, and I'm still really jerky with riding it so I can improve it.
And the same for charging (no direct experience, but from other like Sam to from New Zeroland).
About "LIMP" mode, it's false. There is a gradual limitation on power each 10%, which means the bike accelerate slightly slower, but you don't get a reduced speed limit (unless we are talking above legal speeds).
I can't tell you I've rode it to 200 km/h at 50%, that would be illegal to do.
The reduce in power is bound to happen anyway, if you test with your Livewire you are bound to find a similar results. It's an effect of battery, which is going to lose voltage as it discharges, and less voltage means less power to the motor.
Also, power and torque is still a metric with electric, I don't understand your point on it. Torque is a force a wheel has to impress on the road to move the vehicle forward, and power is a result of that force...
I'm also not sure what you mean by "not having stability control". If you disable TC you will wheelie. If you mean it doesn't dynamically reduce regen power when it detects loss of traction, then yes, only HD has it for now. It's neat, but that's only difference.
In the case of LiveWire, there is not difference in power or acceleration all the way down to 0% At 1%, it will do 0-60 in 3 seconds. Horse Power and Torque are measured on a dyno at a fixed speed. It does not take into account how much energy it will take to accelerate the mass of the drive train as the bike accelerates in the real world. On an electric motorcycle, the only thing that matters is how fast the bike will accelerate.
Here is the info. Make sure you watch the videos in this link. It's amazing stuff:
www.bosch-mobility-solutions.com/en/solutions/driving-safety/motorcycle-stability-control/
@@freedomiseverything Then they broke the laws of physics, or they cannot measure the battery state of charge.
The charge is read from the voltage output, that's going to drop, and with less voltage there is less power for the motor.
I would love to see all the tests done. Both acceleration and dynamometer test for torque.
There is an alternative which is basically a waste of potential across the board, and it's not really a merit either.
@@IIARROWS I believe the usable battery capacity is lower than actual. Say actual is 24kWh, but usable is 20-22kWh. This way you can have full power/torque even for 1% state of charge.
I have a 2020 zero SRS and I only get 65 miles at 70 mph. I use it to commute to work each day less than 20 miles total. This bike is a very expensive short range commute bike. It’s a fun bike but range is a major issue for sure.
Thanks for the interesting post. I've been riding a ZERO S for 2 years and I'm very happy with the bike. I get about 160km far when I do a tour. Charging takes 2 hours, but the type 2 charger must have 22KW. I have the charge tank, but the larger ones have a fast charger. I like the Livewire One but unfortunately it is not available in Germany and the Harley costs over €30,000. It would be nice if Livewire would build a tourer and sell it in Germany.
My SR/F does have level 2 built in (3kw standard, so does the SR/S, my Premium trim has 6KW). I agree the city number is silly on Zeros, they just don't go as far as Zero says unless you are riding at 15mph. I do regularly get 100+ miles combined however, that's my expected range where/how I ride (30% highway, 70% back roads at 40-50mph). The SR/F is a great bike for my needs. I test rode a Live Wire a couple of years ago, and it is a very solidly built high performing bike, but at the time it was 8K more than the SR/F, that's changed with the Live Wire One pricing. If fast charging were more readily available, I'd consider a switch to the Live Wire One, but here (Northeast), fast charging is just not that available yet.
Need to update the slide about charge time. SRS has level 2 built in, the charge tank actually increases charge capacity to ~12kW/hr, which reduces charge time. In current firmware this is about 90 minutes.
Wow Harley is so innovative.
I have an older ZeroSR and on the acceleration from a dead stop the power/torque is muted till the bike gets going about the distance of an intersection then the power kicks in...kinda like turbo lag. I think they did this to prevent folks from back flipping the bike from a stand still.
As for the rotational mass. I find the ZeroSR's cornering response is very quick compared to ICE even a small displacement like my old CB300R....it actually feels quick like my SH150 scooter. I do feel more mass of bike but less gyroscopic forces....kinda of an old feeling at first as if the bike falls over really quick almost unnerving and unstable feeling, kinda like a sport bike tire vs a touring tire where the tour tire crown shape is more round while the sport tire crown shape is more angular for quicker lean over.
This sounds like a paid advertisement for Livewire.
Nope. He's an example:
ruclips.net/video/xX5gI05PoX4/видео.html
@@freedomiseverything I actually prefer Level-2 charging on the bike due to the greater availability of stations. It's hard to find level 3 these days unless I'm driving my Tesla. The best bike would have both Level 2 & 3 going forward.
@@tl2913 By the end of this year, LiveWire ONE will charge at Tesla chargers.
@@freedomiseverything
Unlikely before 2023.
It's good to clarify things since spec sheets tend to be optimistic, but what you call "actual range" on the SR/S is what I get on my 2020 SR/F at highway speed. Doing mixed-riding I get a stable 100 miles. Also I can charge in 1 hour with the Rapid charger since I get 12 kW charge speed when plugged on 22 kW station that are everywhere in Europe. I believe the 2.5 hours you mention is specific to the US market
I can't speak to charging speeds for a Zero in Europe. However, your math does not work. Here is the real story on Zero and their bologna about range and charging speeds:
ruclips.net/video/WLO02psoHac/видео.html
@@freedomiseverything it’s actual riding experience, not math. The link from Sam Baker is related to the DSR/X, not relevant. Your numbers don’t match real life experience, and I’m on the conservative side
I get the same, 100 miles on normal riding and around 75-80 miles highway (SR/F). I'm not sure where the 84 came from unless it's mostly highway. I agree the city number from Zero is silly, you're not going to get 160+ miles unless your riding at 20mph all the time.
Good analysis. My experience with a Zero DS:
1) I get decent range on my Zero DS. In line with what is advertised. I get about 220-250km outside highway,.And 160-180km with highway. Which is fine for me. I need a break after 2 hours of riding anyway. Maybe it is not good on the SR/F because it is more heavy than the DS. Maybe the battery is to small for the size of the bike.
2) A do agree that the zero's aren't the best for fast charging. The level 2 charging is not that fast. If that is important to you, you need to go to bike with DC fast charging. For me the 6kw charge tank is good enough. But DC charging would really be a lot better. It is clear that the future is higher voltage systems. Like harley and energica.
The LiveWire ONE can charge on the same CCS charger as your Taycan. You may want to consider trading up.
@@freedomiseverything I charge at home 99% of the time. I have no need for fast charging. For me the zero DS is also more than powerful enough. So I have no intention to pay extra for a better bike. But I agree the harley and energica are better.
It is a pitty zero did not provide the option to replace the standard 1.3kw chargers on the S and DS with a 3-phase 3x3.3 kw option (like diginow once provided). It is technically feasible. It would not replace the storage compartiment. And 10kw would be close enough to DC fast charging.
I think the 1-phase 6kw charge tank is fine, but is not good enough to compete with DC fast charging for those who need to fast charge regularly.
So I think it is find zero wants to stick with AC charging, but they should add powerful chargers to the bike and a 3-phase version for Europe.
Harley probably doesn't underestimate it's range based on the weight of an average Harley owner: +250 pounds! So if you are a 175 pound rider on the Harley, your range will be higher than the average.
Brilliantly explained..
Can u guys please check & let us know about Utraviollete F77.
Thank you.
I've been watching the Ultraviollete F77 for some time now. They are part of an army of companies that make up spec sheets, take deposits, make excuses for being late and then deliver a watered down product for more money than promised. Sondors is a recent example of this phenomenon.
Chinese and Indian motorcycle companies are focusing primarily on achieving the lowest possible price. They receive media support for this strategy from people like Micah Toll.
I am most interested in motorcycle companies focused on safety, innovation and quality who deliver high value production electric motorcycles to the public. There are only three, Energica, LiveWire and Zero (in alphabetical order).
One thing about Ducati: next year they are replacing Energica for MotoE, so they will have a bike. Will see of they'll have something for the public in 2023 or 2024.
They WILL be the fourth manufacturer coming with models.
Triumph, besides having prototypes, they declared they don't have plans.
Kawasaki somehow think an hybrid is feasible, but they have declared plans to have an hybrid for each category in 2025. So they will probably be the fifth (if we count hybrid as "electric").
Ducati has a problem in that their electric bike is doing slower lap times than last years Energica. There are also thermal management issues as yet unresolved. I doubt Ducati would dare release a production bike that is slower on the track than an Energica. When they finally get a design that works, it will be another 2 years till it's in dealer showrooms.
Ducati already stated that their MotoE bike is NOT planned to become a road bike. When/if they do an electric road bike; it will be an entirely new project (taking into account their MotoE learnings). So you are looking at 2-4 years down the road minimum. Ride today; get something good; trade up later if you like that Ducati releases.
Nice ad for Livewire. It's funny you made a video about lies and also lied in it. Nice. Specifically, charging time of the Zero with the charge tank is 1.5 hours, not 2.5 hours, and then secondly, the Zero is faster than the Livewire (slightly) until the batteries get low.
Strong words. However, math does not lie. Assuming that the Zero charges at a full 6.6 kW for the duration of the charge (which it does not), a 17.3 kWh battery divided by 6.6 kW charging speed is 2.6212 hours of charging time. Not the 1.5 you claim. You need the charge tank to get to 11 kW. However, the charge tank does not work on most chargers and you have to carry around an adapter cable.
There is also video evidence from Zero owners on RUclips about the slow charging:
ruclips.net/video/WLO02psoHac/видео.html
Zero also lies about the top speed of the SR/F. They claim 125 MPH. The real number is 118 MPH:
ruclips.net/video/YfnKHnP7yv4/видео.html
LiveWire claims a top speed of 110 MPH. They real number is 114 MPH:
ruclips.net/video/I8TEXEtFMjQ/видео.html
LiveWire under promises and over delivers. Zero over promises and under delivers. That's not a LiveWire advertisement. That's the facts.
@@freedomiseverything You said with the charge tank, that's ~12kW charging; check your math. 118 > 114 so the Zero's faster (although I meant 0-60, etc.) I'm not specifically arguing your overpromising claim. Just pointing out that you're not using true facts...which was the focus of the title of your video.
Good Intel
Well you are kinda painting our bikes with rose colored glasses. Our bikes have bigger batteries then we get to use. They never charge to 100. Not clear if they let you run to zero or just shut down. You could argue a limp mode might save you a tow. I own a livewire and love it. But they are all sketchy. We just get to enjoy sketchy Harley dealers. Incompatible ccs chargers. They all have issues ours is really well done.
What do you mean by "incompatible CCS chargers"?
It's a standard, if it's not compatible it's not CCS. It doesn't make any sense.
@@IIARROWS There are compatibility issues. Early on a couple brand CCS chargers had issues with early LiveWires. Eventually most of them rented LiveWires and fixed their issues. Though, until a couple months ago LiveWires still had compatibility problems with some of the CCS chargers in Florida, but recently that vendor rented a LiveWire and was able to fix them. CCS is a standard that charging stations don't apply equally.
@14:32 if you reread the article you grabbed these performance graphs from, including where the author answers comments about torque, you will see there is no secret sauce, and the graphs are not meaningless.
If you go further up in the article they state “Comparing the two at a dyno drum speed of 55 mph, we found the Zero produces 80 hp and 120 pound-feet at 3,500 rpm, while the Harley dealt 91 hp and 68 pound-feet at 7,000 rpm.”
1. This means the Harley overall reduction ratio is exactly twice that of the Zero.
2. That means the relative torque to the rear wheels is 120 lb-ft for the zero and 136 lb-ft for the Harley. Actual torque to rear wheel at 55 mph is 528 lb-ft for the Zero and 598 lb-ft for the Livewire.
3. Since the rear tire size is the same, it means the livewire forward thrust will be 12.7% more than the Zero, which is more than enough to compensate for the bike being 42 lbs heavier. So as long as you dont race someone 50 lbs lighter than you on a Zero you can probably beat him.
It’s really a simple fact that the gear ratio is what allowed the Harley to accelerate harder at at low to mid speeds (up to 80 mph) at which point the Zero starts to pull harder, which is why it has a higher trap speed even though needing more time.
A simple ratio change on the Zero would have it smoking the Livewire at every step, but they decided to go for higher top speed (124 mph) instead.
If you change the Livewire final drive ratio to go 140 mph @14,000 rpm then it will be slower accelerating. And the actual top speed would only change if the controller uses motor rpm for speed control and no extra sensors that can override it.
But the engineers at Livewire have probably got it set for best overall performance and reliability within useable speeds.
The LiveWire ONE has has a small, liquid cooled, high-voltage motor that spins at 15,000+ RPM. The Zero has a large, heavy, air-cooled, low-voltage motor that spins at 7,000 RPM.
The LiveWire ONE smokes a Zero SR/F at 80 mph if the riders are of similar weight.
You are completely missing the point. Torque has no component of time and therefore, cannot measure rotating inertia over time.
Let's talk gas bikes for a moment. If you lighten the crankshaft, you do not increase power or torque. But, the bike runs faster at the drag-strip.
LIveWire engineers used this principle to make the LiveWire ONE accelerate more quickly. Energica figured out what LIveWire was doing and has incorporated these principles in their new bikes.
@@freedomiseverything , you are over complicating a simple fact. You are assuming that something that needs to accelerate to twice as many rpm, turn a 90 degree gearbox, and then the rear tire has less rotational mass than a larger diameter rotor that spins half as fast with absolutely no facts to back it up.
Liquid cooling in itself doesn’t change the numbers stated. That may come into play after several runs when the zero throttles back due to high temp. But thats not part of the “why the Livewire is quicker than the zero” discussion.
The only way you can prove your theory is have both bikes on their centerstand with no traction control on and time how many seconds it takes to spin to 110 mph.
But any engineer can understand the Cycle World dyno results and know the Livewire will be quicker, without any reduction in rotational inertia. I already went step by step to reiterate what the article stated. Its really simple math.
Now IF the math showed the Zero should be quicker when its not, thats when introducing other factors might be important. But the basic motor performance and the overall drive ratios give enough data to show exactly what happens. The Livewire quicker off the start, the Zero quicker at high speeds.
The LiveWire is quicker than the Zero all the way up to its 110 MPH governor.
Let me try to explain it in a different way. If you put carbon wheels on a motorcycle, it does not change HP and torque on the dyno. However, the bike will be quicker 0-60. What do you think made the difference?
Here's the CTO at Energica explaining why a smaller lighter rotor reduces enertia in the drive train and why it's a good thing:
ruclips.net/video/JnRDWn89ADI/видео.html
@@freedomiseverything , using the data from the April 6, 2020 Cycle World article which has the performance graphs as well as acceleration times, the Livewire has more torque at the rear wheels up to about 10,000 rpm, which corresponds to 5,000 rpm of the Zero. Since the reduction ratio of the Livewire is exactly twice that of the zero, then you simply double the torque figure given at each 2X multiple.
48*2 (96 lb-ft) for the Livewire @ 10,000 rpm (80 mph) and 102 lb-ft @ 5000 rpm (80 mph) for the Zero. This is one clue that the zero will accelerate faster than the Livewire from 80 MPH up, but Cycle world’s fastest roll on test was 60 to 80, in which case you can see they are already neck and neck (1.71 seconds vs 1.73 seconds).
However from the 0-60 and 0-100 times we can obtain the 60-100 times.
The Livewire needed 4.23 seconds to go from 60 mph to 100 mph.
The Zero needed 4.05 seconds to go from 60 mph to 100 mph.
This agrees with the torque curves on the graphs.
Another clue is the trap speeds, unfortunately the Livewire was already at max speed (110.6 mph) while the Zero was still below its 124 mph top speed, and since there is no graph showing the 1/4 mile race it cant be proven that the Zero accelerates faster from 80 mph on. However since the Zero does beat the Livewire 60-100, it stand to reason it would beat it 60-110 and obviously 60-124 since the Livewire cant go that fast.
What you are saying about rotating mass is not needed. The Livewire pulls much harder in the beginning up to about 80mph where the Zero pulls harder. All the data shown in the article supports this without any secret sauce needed.
The two bikes drivetrains are so different that you cant make the assumption than the Livewire rotational mass can be accelerated from 0-14,000 rpm faster than Zero’s rotational mass can ve accelerated 0-7000 rpm.
Yes, we all know the theory that if you replace a wheel with a lighter wheel, regardless of the material, it will have a slight effect, but the tire is the mass further out and has the bigger impact on rotational mass.
Putting a carbon fiber wheel on the Zero would make it run a little closer but a simple rear sprocket change will make it as quick as the Livewire, however there are tradeoffs just like when changing rear end gears from 3.55:1 to 3.73:1. Of course it accelerates quicker but there are tradeoffs.
If you change your cast aluminum wheels for carbon fiber wheels you probably wont even notice the difference in performance. You might drop 6 pounds and it might behave like a 10 lb reduction, but the easiest and healthiest way to lose 10 pounds on the motor cycle is lose 10 lbs of body fat.
The general consensus on carbon wheels on a motorcycle is nobody wants that on a daily driver. The cons outweigh the pros unless you absolutely need it for a competition bike.
Electric garage..let me know when they make a bike that hoes 150 miles.
I really need some secret sauce as well. Hahaha. R u sure livewire didn’t hire u to come up with Fun frases like that. :) thank you again for your honest Sir. May God keep u that way.
Many of my videos are very critical of LiveWire. LiveWire does promote You Tubers on their LiveWire You Tube channel (including Yammie Noob). However, I don't think I'll ever make the cut!
Bottom line, I'm not in it for the money, the fame, the number of subscribers, or a job. I'm trying to help steer the ship by raising awareness among, "The powers that be," about important issues related to the success of electric motorcycles.
@@freedomiseverything and we are all deeply appreciate that seriously
Livewire S2 Del Mar is a better compromise - lower priced, but lower range
I agree. For many people, the Del Mar is the right choice for a motorcycle. I have a founders addition on order and can't wait to get it.
there MOPED MOPEDS
Darned nice video. LiveWire should pay you for your endorsement. I wonder if LiveWire will get rid of that bevel gear they engineered to give it a jet engine sound. Does that noise bother you?
I think the main reason for the bevel gear was probably to drop the engine below the axles for lower weight distribution.
I can hear the bike at lower speeds. At higher speeds, I can't hear it. However, I know that it sounds like a jet engine at higher speeds to the cars around me.
A bit of a side note about the quietness of the bike; I can hear the tires on the road in sharp fast corners in the canyons. You don't get that on a gas bike...
@@freedomiseverything My wife and I each rode the original LiveWire when Harley was touring a truckload of them around the country for demo rides probably way back in 2014 if memory serves me.. I haven't ridden the LiveWire they are actually selling. The prototypes that we rode were much smaller otherwise my wife would have never gotten her feet on the ground. I remember them having one of the prototypes up on a stand that had rollers for the back wheel to spin on. It was under a tent and that noise from the bevel gear was really loud. I'm glad to hear you write that it is not that obtrusive while riding. What I am really looking forward to is some test ride reports of the Del Mar vs the LiveWire. It has been a very long time since I have purchased a new bike and I want an E-motorcycle for sure. I will not buy another ICE powered motorcycle. I am just so sick of gas stations and oil changes and all of the other ICE maintenance issues. I own a Buell and two Harleys currently. Thanks for the videos. I will never buy a Zero with how they seem to think screwing their customers is just so OK so long as they make a buck doing so.
That's what my main concern was after a 45min test ride. Then I took it on a day trip across the Swiss alps and totally fell in love with that StarWars sound. As @freedomiseverything stated, you really only notice it until the wind noise takes over OR if you roll on the throttle real hard. All day on that trip I never missed the v-twin sound once.
This is a bit much.
Liverwire was definitely not honoust about "the long way up" they hide charging times and did not include that footage .. and they charged mobile with generators in the back of ice trucks .. did not paint a honoust picture of x country electric riding .!!!!.
I agree with you. However, I have met several LiveWire ONE owners who were inspired by watching the show, decided to take a test ride, and then bought the bike.
@@freedomiseverything the bike is terrific ... the advertising very dishonoust .. you will never be able to go offroad like that without a humongues support team .. and they did not show this ... bike is great though ..
Harley fan boy,
nahhh no gearbox there mopeds
SR/F does just fine from 0-120MPH without any shifting. Electrics have no need... Don't be silly.
T
sort your sound out, can barely hear you
Sorry, I'll do better in the future.