"Why doesn't Tesla use this type of braking?" Because they don't make motorcycles. From Erik's patent application, " The weight transfer to the front wheel(s) that occurs when a high and short saddle-type vehicle decelerates makes this application particularly suited to having friction braking only on the front wheel(s) and only using regenerative braking force to the rear wheel(s)". Also, from the patent application, "... a movement of the brake actuation device causes the brake actuation sensor to communicate data to one or more motor controllers, wherein the one or more motor controllers use the data to calculate an amount of the second braking force to apply to the rear wheel... wherein the one or more motor controllers provides an Anti-Lock Brake function for the rear wheel." Erik is innovating; maybe it will pass NHTSA and maybe it won't. Many of his ideas have been viewed as controversial, but pushing the envelope so that rear wheel regen may take the place of a traditional rear motorcycle brake doesn't justify your opinion that it is, "the fraud that is the fuel flow". You've made two hit pieces on the Fllow and have another in the works. I've already read references to you as a Fuell "Hater". But, I know you despise Utubers that make "Hater" videos for profit. So, unless your are an NHTSA attorney, or a brilliant engineer, you may want to refrain from being so overbearing concerning your comments about Erik Buell and the Fuell Fllow. The Autopian (July 31, 2023), interviewed the "AMA Motorcycle Hall of Famer and engineering legend Erik Buell". Erik was quoted as saying, " So quite frankly, innovation is critical - you cannot build a new future hanging onto the old ways." Enjoy your ride.
You've completely missed my point. Non-refundable deposit holders are expecting to get a motorcycle that is street legal. The words, "maybe it will pass NHTSA and maybe it won't," have never been shared with deposit holders by FUELL. Obviously, a motorcycle without rear brakes is not legal. The NHTSA does not change regulations based on patent applications. We are watching as over $12M of people's hard earned money goes up in smoke. The electric motorcycle industry has suffered a huge setback. In the end, Erik will do what he has done twice before, blame the people around him...
@@freedomiseverything I do not speak for Fuell. They have never said what I said. Don't try and put my words in their mouths. I do not have a legal department or a team of qualified mechanical engineers to have the confidence to say for certain that their innovation will be accepted. However, like you, I can do my due diligence in researching both the qualifications of the Fuell team and the reasonableness of the claims that they make. Did you even read the patent application? I believe that you've completely missed the point that regenerative braking is a brake force. Your narrow mindedness about what constitutes a rear brake is just another example of your unwillingness to view a different engineering solution as acceptable. I am confident that Dan Hurda, who has his degree in Aeronautical and Astronautical Engineering from MIT and who has held responsibilities in the fields of engineering, platform management and certification for Buell, Harley-Davidson and most recently EBR has considered your concerns and tested the regen rear brake force so that it will pass homologation. When I do a Google Patent search for Erik Buell, I get 189 results. Patents are an indication of innovative thinking that leads to change. Try to be open to change and ask questions rather than making pendantic and inflammatory statements. Erik has learned some hard lessons about losing management control due to the traditional funding avenues that you have championed. He has now chosen a different funding path and as you say $12 million dollars of peoples hard earned money has endorsed his approach. There is obviously substancial support for, and belief in, his innovative engineering solutions. Enjoy your ride.
Fuel CO does not have millions to loose on their new Corp. Harley Davidson spent $400 Million to shut down their new Factory in Kansas City. HD spent $116 Million to shut down their new Buell Factor in East Troy WI. HD has lost Millions and Millions on their Live Wire Project..
I agree. Fuell is undercapitalized and will not be able to ship motorcycles to their customers that have prepaid. They have drastically underestimated what it cost to bring a motorcycle to production. It's a broken record that just plays over and over again. Some people never learn. A fool and his money are easily parted.
I was looking at the catalog of participants for the International Motorcycle Show in Milan (EICMA) next month hoping that i will see the Livewire up close but no, it's not going to be. Not as Livewire and not even as HD. It's like Livewire doesn't want to sell motorcycles in Europe! Also this year Energica and Bmw Motorrad it's not gonna be there and Kawasaki is showing it's first two commuter electric motorcycles. It was going to be a good opportunity for Livewire but now it's another big mistake.
I think the EU is a better market for electric motorcycles that the USA. Zero is a good example of this. LiveWire recently held a big press event in Barcelona for the Del Mar. I hope this is an indication that they will do more in Europe in the future...
I was going to say: this thing will never hit the streets in Europe like this. The problem with regen as a breaking substitute is that it might not be available depending on the charging condition of your battery. I mean, on both my Tesla and the LiveWire, I barely ever use the breaks anymore. But as of today, I wouldn't want to miss them either: unconditional, brute stopping power.
Even at 100% charge there's still some battery buffer and you can get some Regen, cars sometimes display high charge / low Regen warnings but usually for a very short time, maybe a mile, Fllow could have a similar warning or just have enough buffer that you can still Regen at 100% SOC. Rear brakes on a bike do a small percentage of the stopping and hitting the rear brake too hard and locking the wheel on pre-abs brakes is probably more common that using too little.
Interesting that with your Tesla and LiveWire you "barely ever use the breaks anymore".I appreciate your concern about the battery's ability to accept the regen's charge. I'm glad you used the words, "might not be available" instead of doing what the video creator does and try to make absolute statements. I can only speculate, but most ev batteries have established buffers that even when the battery is showing as fully charged could still accept energy from regen. If you read Erik's patent application you will also note that the regen force is sufficient to lock the rear wheel, which is what I think you meant by "brute stopping power"? Fuell also has a lower hp version designed for Europe with its different licensing standards making stopping even easier to achieve.
@@ZeroFuell, while I do set up all my ebikes to work as intended by this motorcycle, although not as sophisticated since I don’t have variable regen, I only use the front brake lever, which will activate regen on rear and then if i need more I can squeeze the front brake more to engage mechanical brakes. While this motorcycle would work ok in warm climate, in cold climate if the battery is cold soaked, even at 50% SOC, it will not allow regen if below freezing. Perhaps they have addressed this by making regen power go to a heating element in the battery thermal management system, but thats quite sophisticated. While the rear brake only does 30% of the stopping power on a motorcycle, it does contribute to the front brake’s ability to do the other 70% by weight transfer. And in the below freezing conditions where regen typically wont work on an EV, road conditions might need that tiny bit of rear brake. The cost of a rear brake is insignificant. I have front and rear hydraulic disc brakes on my $600 electric scooter. So i can’t see them being legal without at least some rear brake. It doesn’t need to be 8 piston brembo caliber with 12” carbon rotor. Just a basic brake that can be used until the battery warms up. Motorcycles don’t leave excess buffer at the top because the battery is always too small. Lol. But typically on level ground you will create enough room in the battery when accelerating to allow a fraction of that energy to be returned. The problem is if you live on top of a hill. Some EVs have hilltop reserve (aka charge to 90%) for people in this situation, and any motorcycle rider living on a hill would also know to leave a buffer for going downhill if he lives on a hilltop, but this will not excuse the manufacturer from having a working rear brake. I don’t know the current regulations around the world but when I had motorcycles they always check the rear brake pads/shoes and rotor/drum during the annual safety inspection. Not sure if every state will add a checkbox for (this bike has rear regen, no brakes needed). For this bike, the brake is cheap, but since the left brake must also activate the brake light, they will have to decide how to incorporate that signal into the regen. Perhaps this will be considered an option later (cheap rear disc brake for compliance $100).
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"Why doesn't Tesla use this type of braking?" Because they don't make motorcycles. From Erik's patent application, " The weight transfer to the front wheel(s) that occurs when a high and short saddle-type vehicle decelerates makes this application particularly suited to having friction braking only on the front wheel(s) and only using regenerative braking force to the rear wheel(s)". Also, from the patent application, "... a movement of the brake actuation device causes the brake actuation sensor to communicate data to one or more motor controllers, wherein the one or more motor controllers use the data to calculate an amount of the second braking force to apply to the rear wheel... wherein the one or more motor controllers provides an Anti-Lock Brake function for the rear wheel." Erik is innovating; maybe it will pass NHTSA and maybe it won't. Many of his ideas have been viewed as controversial, but pushing the envelope so that rear wheel regen may take the place of a traditional rear motorcycle brake doesn't justify your opinion that it is, "the fraud that is the fuel flow". You've made two hit pieces on the Fllow and have another in the works. I've already read references to you as a Fuell "Hater". But, I know you despise Utubers that make "Hater" videos for profit. So, unless your are an NHTSA attorney, or a brilliant engineer, you may want to refrain from being so overbearing concerning your comments about Erik Buell and the Fuell Fllow. The Autopian (July 31, 2023), interviewed the "AMA Motorcycle Hall of Famer and engineering legend Erik Buell". Erik was quoted as saying, " So quite frankly, innovation is critical - you cannot build a new future hanging onto the old ways." Enjoy your ride.
You've completely missed my point. Non-refundable deposit holders are expecting to get a motorcycle that is street legal. The words, "maybe it will pass NHTSA and maybe it won't," have never been shared with deposit holders by FUELL.
Obviously, a motorcycle without rear brakes is not legal. The NHTSA does not change regulations based on patent applications.
We are watching as over $12M of people's hard earned money goes up in smoke. The electric motorcycle industry has suffered a huge setback.
In the end, Erik will do what he has done twice before, blame the people around him...
@emc4TW you should make a video response with all this info
@@freedomiseverything I do not speak for Fuell. They have never said what I said. Don't try and put my words in their mouths. I do not have a legal department or a team of qualified mechanical engineers to have the confidence to say for certain that their innovation will be accepted. However, like you, I can do my due diligence in researching both the qualifications of the Fuell team and the reasonableness of the claims that they make. Did you even read the patent application? I believe that you've completely missed the point that regenerative braking is a brake force. Your narrow mindedness about what constitutes a rear brake is just another example of your unwillingness to view a different engineering solution as acceptable. I am confident that Dan Hurda, who has his degree in Aeronautical and Astronautical Engineering from MIT and who has held responsibilities in the fields of engineering, platform management and certification for Buell, Harley-Davidson and most recently EBR has considered your concerns and tested the regen rear brake force so that it will pass homologation. When I do a Google Patent search for Erik Buell, I get 189 results. Patents are an indication of innovative thinking that leads to change. Try to be open to change and ask questions rather than making pendantic and inflammatory statements. Erik has learned some hard lessons about losing management control due to the traditional funding avenues that you have championed. He has now chosen a different funding path and as you say $12 million dollars of peoples hard earned money has endorsed his approach. There is obviously substancial support for, and belief in, his innovative engineering solutions. Enjoy your ride.
Fuel CO does not have millions to loose on their new Corp. Harley Davidson spent $400 Million to shut down their new Factory in Kansas City. HD spent $116 Million to shut down their new Buell Factor in East Troy WI. HD has lost Millions and Millions on their Live Wire Project..
I agree. Fuell is undercapitalized and will not be able to ship motorcycles to their customers that have prepaid. They have drastically underestimated what it cost to bring a motorcycle to production. It's a broken record that just plays over and over again. Some people never learn. A fool and his money are easily parted.
I was looking at the catalog of participants for the International Motorcycle Show in Milan (EICMA) next month hoping that i will see the Livewire up close but no, it's not going to be.
Not as Livewire and not even as HD. It's like Livewire doesn't want to sell motorcycles in Europe! Also this year Energica and Bmw Motorrad it's not gonna be there and Kawasaki is showing it's first two commuter electric motorcycles. It was going to be a good opportunity for Livewire but now it's another big mistake.
I think the EU is a better market for electric motorcycles that the USA. Zero is a good example of this. LiveWire recently held a big press event in Barcelona for the Del Mar. I hope this is an indication that they will do more in Europe in the future...
I was going to say: this thing will never hit the streets in Europe like this. The problem with regen as a breaking substitute is that it might not be available depending on the charging condition of your battery. I mean, on both my Tesla and the LiveWire, I barely ever use the breaks anymore. But as of today, I wouldn't want to miss them either: unconditional, brute stopping power.
Even at 100% charge there's still some battery buffer and you can get some Regen, cars sometimes display high charge / low Regen warnings but usually for a very short time, maybe a mile, Fllow could have a similar warning or just have enough buffer that you can still Regen at 100% SOC.
Rear brakes on a bike do a small percentage of the stopping and hitting the rear brake too hard and locking the wheel on pre-abs brakes is probably more common that using too little.
Interesting that with your Tesla and LiveWire you "barely ever use the breaks anymore".I appreciate your concern about the battery's ability to accept the regen's charge. I'm glad you used the words, "might not be available" instead of doing what the video creator does and try to make absolute statements. I can only speculate, but most ev batteries have established buffers that even when the battery is showing as fully charged could still accept energy from regen. If you read Erik's patent application you will also note that the regen force is sufficient to lock the rear wheel, which is what I think you meant by "brute stopping power"? Fuell also has a lower hp version designed for Europe with its different licensing standards making stopping even easier to achieve.
@@ZeroFuell, while I do set up all my ebikes to work as intended by this motorcycle, although not as sophisticated since I don’t have variable regen, I only use the front brake lever, which will activate regen on rear and then if i need more I can squeeze the front brake more to engage mechanical brakes.
While this motorcycle would work ok in warm climate, in cold climate if the battery is cold soaked, even at 50% SOC, it will not allow regen if below freezing. Perhaps they have addressed this by making regen power go to a heating element in the battery thermal management system, but thats quite sophisticated.
While the rear brake only does 30% of the stopping power on a motorcycle, it does contribute to the front brake’s ability to do the other 70% by weight transfer. And in the below freezing conditions where regen typically wont work on an EV, road conditions might need that tiny bit of rear brake.
The cost of a rear brake is insignificant. I have front and rear hydraulic disc brakes on my $600 electric scooter. So i can’t see them being legal without at least some rear brake. It doesn’t need to be 8 piston brembo caliber with 12” carbon rotor. Just a basic brake that can be used until the battery warms up.
Motorcycles don’t leave excess buffer at the top because the battery is always too small. Lol. But typically on level ground you will create enough room in the battery when accelerating to allow a fraction of that energy to be returned. The problem is if you live on top of a hill. Some EVs have hilltop reserve (aka charge to 90%) for people in this situation, and any motorcycle rider living on a hill would also know to leave a buffer for going downhill if he lives on a hilltop, but this will not excuse the manufacturer from having a working rear brake.
I don’t know the current regulations around the world but when I had motorcycles they always check the rear brake pads/shoes and rotor/drum during the annual safety inspection. Not sure if every state will add a checkbox for (this bike has rear regen, no brakes needed).
For this bike, the brake is cheap, but since the left brake must also activate the brake light, they will have to decide how to incorporate that signal into the regen. Perhaps this will be considered an option later (cheap rear disc brake for compliance $100).