I don't think it is fair to rank Caitlyn as Jon's mom or to say "the way she treats Jon"; based on only one scene; she never tried to be his mom and he doesn't see her as such; the only interaction we see between Jon and Caitlyn is in Brandon's room and George himself has stated that it was a special situation (obviously) and clarifies that Jon was never mistreated or abused by Caitlyn, she was just cold to him and honestly, why wouldn't she? you don't have an obligation to be a mother to every child who lives close by, much less if they are your husband's bastard, that's not Jon's fault but neither is Caitlyn, if anything, it's Ned's fault; Caitlyn is a traditional noble wife in a medieval world, she is subservient to Ned, she can't leave him or her children (there's no divorce in this world, even marital rape is allowed), she has no money, power or influence of her own and she has no authority to order Jon to be raised somewhere else, it's normal that she doesn't want to live with the kid she believes to be the product of her husband's infidelity. When Cersei found out that Robert had gotten a Casterly Rock maid pregnant, she had the twin babies killed, even though the being twins in casterly rock maid suggests some sort of kinship with the Lannisters. Catlyn is S tier. Also, how can you expect Joana Lannister to think the best thing for her 9 year old children is to be raised by strangers? She continued to raise and care for them and attempted to keep them apart on opposite sides of a castle the size of a mountain, and placed guards at Cersei's door.
Joanna Lannister being in B tier is mostly fair - however it's important to keep in mind that as a mother it's not her actions while alive that have the most influence on her children. She dies when Jamie and Cersei are 4 in the story. It's her absence. Her death is one of the first things that Cersei truly despises Tyrion for. It also greatly changes Tywin Lannister and his interactions with his children going forward, including his resentment with Tyrion.
They're not 4; they're about 7. However, i do believe the judgment is unfair; people expects her to have sent a 5 year old away from his/her family to avoid the incest; what would that do to a child's mind? She moved them to opposite sides of a mountain sized castle (casterly rock is massive) and placed guards on Cersei's door, there's nothing else that she could have done within reason.
@@Liilliithh I suppose that depends on whether you're taking the age gap between the show or the books. They're shown to have a wider age gap in the books than in the show ( the show played a little fast and loose with a lot of characters' ages).
@@Skypirateinc I'm taking the year in which Cersei was born (266 ac) and the year of Joanna's death (273 ac). I don't remember the show ever even mentioning Cersei's age.
Ellaria doesn't try to get war in the books. She even tries to discourage the older Sandsnakes from seeking revenge: "Oberyn wanted vengeance for Elia. Now the three of you want vengeance for him. I have four daughters, I remind you. Your sisters. My Elia is fourteen, almost a woman. Obella is twelve, on the brink of maidenhood. They worship you, as Dorea and Loreza worship them. If you should die, must El and Obella seek vengeance for you, then Dorea and Loree for them? Is that how it goes, round and round forever? I ask again, where does it end? I saw your father die. Here is his killer. Can I take a skull to bed with me, to give me comfort in the night? Will it make me laugh, write me songs, care for me when I am old and sick?" (ADWD chapter 38) She should be in A-tier. Also, I wouldn't consider Jon Catelyn's stepson. By definition, a stepchild would be a child from her spouse's previous relationship, but Jon is the result of infidelity. He didn't exist when Catelyn & Eddard got married, and she never agreed to raise him. A-tier is alright for her though.
You're totally right, but Cait is S tier in my rank; It's not Just that Jon is a child of infidelity, but most people seem to judge their entire relationship by the scene in Bran's room, it is quite obvious that it was an extreme situation for both of them, you can see Caitlyn's grief there and George himself has said so; Caitlyn was not abusive to Jon, Jon was not mistreated by Caitlyn, she was cold to him, and that's it, you don't have an obligation to treat every child as your own just because they live close by, would you expect Cersei to raise all of Robert's bastards? NO, 'cause that's an insane expectation, it simply happens that we like Ned, so we are unwilling to judge the implications of his lie about Jon's paternity and we like Jon, so we want to see him as a victim because he sees himself as a victim, but none of that is Caitlyn's problem.
@@fischbrotchen7 you are absolutely right, I was confusing show and book Ellaria! (I'm ill with sinusitis atm so I'm gonna blame that for my muddy brain) Great quote btw ♥️
12:40 At first glance, it seems like an insane decision, but I wonder just how much pressure Lord Commander Snow had to put on her. It certainly couldn’t have been easy. I've always seen that scene as a moment that reveals how much Jon Snow has changed. The Jon we knew as a bastard in the earlier books wouldn’t have had the strength or authority to ask something like this. But by A Dance with Dragons, Jon's experiences have transformed him. He's become much more like Stannis than he probably cares to admit, adopting an 'ends justify the means' mentality. I never viewed Gilly agreeing to the baby swap as a negative thing. Jon likely gave her his word that no harm would come to her son. Loving your own child is one thing, but loving someone else’s child-especially when it puts your own at risk-is far more difficult. Catelyn couldn’t do it, even though she probably tried (I know their situations are different). Gilly was the only one who could guarantee Mance’s baby’s safety, and she made the ultimate sacrifice. It’s such a powerful reflection of her character, showing the depth of her empathy and kindness. How many women, especially highborn ones, would make such a choice? Gilly is an A-tier mother, but an S-tier human.
The book is actually quite explicit; Jon told her if she didn't agree to the switch, Melissandre would burn Mance's baby, he put her hand on the fire to make her imagine how that would feel; she offered to take them both, and he said one of them had to stay or else they would notice, when asked about the implication of that being that Gilly's baby would be the one to burn, he said he would then tell them the truth, but no one knows if that will work since Jon is currently dead; the mention of it probably means the child is going to the pyre. But yeah, there was a lot of pressure.
wow. daenerys is exactly like those dog owners who spoil their pets when theyre puppies but then don't train them so they bite someone and then the owner will chain them up.... problematic!!!
No, she's not; dragons are not like dogs; the books are very clear that dragons cannot be completely tammed; it's more like spoiling aligators, whatever you do, they will always be predators, you can't expect them not to hunt and she has no idea on how to train them, she's the first one to hatch dragons in over a century and she is 14, what do you expect her to do? what would you have done to train a dragon? How do you expect to feed them if they're not allowed to hunt? she's on a ship on her way to Astapor when the dragons start hunting, would you have caged them? what's the biggest cage you can afford? what's the biggest cage you can place on a ship? how many ship owners would allow a cage with angry caged dragons on their ships? the books are also clear on the fact that dragons don't grow as much while kept indoors, you would need to abuse them A LOT for the dog comparison to work.
I would put Gilly A because the baby swap wasn't her choice and she has a lot a bad choices and she took least bad. The problem with Danyres her children grow to be big flying reptiles that breath fire. Dany Targaryen is in a situation where her knowledge of dragons are coming from third hand accounts and no one has real experience with them. House Targaryens and those who were dragon keepers are all dead with first hand account with handling them. All the dragons were hunting and killing sheep and shepherd alike. Dany Targaryen was put in a no win situation because she couldn't stop her dragons killing people while getting a bit of mutton when she wasn't with them
Strongly agree. While she's not the 'world's worst mom', Cat plays favorites among her children -- even among her trueborns.She is responsible for 'othering' the children that are not her blood in Ned's care, which includes both Jon and Theon. If both had more of a sense of family and belonging, certain events might not have played out quite the same. Undermining Rob and not respecting his command cost the Starks deeply.
She's not Ned's mother, and he was already involved in politics, the king was in their castle asking him to go south, and she's totally right, Robert wouldn't have taken "no" very well, plus, he would have named Jaimie hand, the very same guy who pushed Brand from the tower. It's not her fault that Ned chose to spill the beans to Cersei.
Catelyn = C. Her treatment of Jon Snow was abominable. Sansa, Arya, Bran and Rickon were entitled and bratty. Bran became a demigod which covers for his youthful limits. Jon and Robb turned out well. Catelyn can't claim credit for Jon's triumphs.
Jon wasnt her child, Sansa, Arya, Bran and Rickon were all children, Rickon still basically a baby at the start of the series they are going to be bratty from time to time. They all grew up at different points. The worst thing IMO she did was leaving Bran and Rickon to join Rob in warring and leaving Bran and Rickon to be raised by the Maestor and ser Roderick and letting Rickon have 0 control over shaggydog, that direwolf terrorized the castle lol
We're ranking mothers, not random women who live close by and don't like you;; Caitlyn is not Jon's mother nor has she ever attempted to be, she didn't agree to raise him, he didn't even exist when she and Ned got married, he wasn't part of the deal. Jon is a child of infidelity, she doesn't have to love him and what you call "her treatment of Jon" is based on a single scene; George himself has clarified that Caitlyn didn't abuse or mistreat Jon, the scene in Bran's bedroom is due to exceptional circumstances, she wasn't mean to Jon, she just didn't like him.
I dont think you understand the social role of bastards in the setting. Cat was never Jons mom; and to her Jon was a constant reminder her husband banged another woman. Bastards are also bad for political reasons as they can lead to conflict in terms of sucession; like the Blackfyres for example. Cat was gonna do everything to make Rob and the rest of her actual children as legitimate as possible; and expecting the woman to be a mother to someone she neither birthed nor honestly really wanted there is pretty crazy
@@sdzielinski If your analysis of the situation is that black and white/one dimensional I dont really think you are getting that much from the book series. This is a series about the heart being in conflict with itself, love vs duty, different duties in conflict and so on. Cat never even mistreated Jon she was just cold to him. And one angry outburst a singular time ever due to her thinking her son was gonna die. And that was solely due to a lack of information cause Ned didnt tell her. Thats not «evil» or whatever
Cersei is in a tier of her own by sheer comedic value. The definition of a hot mess.
I don't think it is fair to rank Caitlyn as Jon's mom or to say "the way she treats Jon"; based on only one scene; she never tried to be his mom and he doesn't see her as such; the only interaction we see between Jon and Caitlyn is in Brandon's room and George himself has stated that it was a special situation (obviously) and clarifies that Jon was never mistreated or abused by Caitlyn, she was just cold to him and honestly, why wouldn't she? you don't have an obligation to be a mother to every child who lives close by, much less if they are your husband's bastard, that's not Jon's fault but neither is Caitlyn, if anything, it's Ned's fault; Caitlyn is a traditional noble wife in a medieval world, she is subservient to Ned, she can't leave him or her children (there's no divorce in this world, even marital rape is allowed), she has no money, power or influence of her own and she has no authority to order Jon to be raised somewhere else, it's normal that she doesn't want to live with the kid she believes to be the product of her husband's infidelity. When Cersei found out that Robert had gotten a Casterly Rock maid pregnant, she had the twin babies killed, even though the being twins in casterly rock maid suggests some sort of kinship with the Lannisters. Catlyn is S tier.
Also, how can you expect Joana Lannister to think the best thing for her 9 year old children is to be raised by strangers? She continued to raise and care for them and attempted to keep them apart on opposite sides of a castle the size of a mountain, and placed guards at Cersei's door.
Joanna Lannister being in B tier is mostly fair - however it's important to keep in mind that as a mother it's not her actions while alive that have the most influence on her children. She dies when Jamie and Cersei are 4 in the story. It's her absence. Her death is one of the first things that Cersei truly despises Tyrion for. It also greatly changes Tywin Lannister and his interactions with his children going forward, including his resentment with Tyrion.
They're not 4; they're about 7. However, i do believe the judgment is unfair; people expects her to have sent a 5 year old away from his/her family to avoid the incest; what would that do to a child's mind? She moved them to opposite sides of a mountain sized castle (casterly rock is massive) and placed guards on Cersei's door, there's nothing else that she could have done within reason.
@@Liilliithh I suppose that depends on whether you're taking the age gap between the show or the books. They're shown to have a wider age gap in the books than in the show ( the show played a little fast and loose with a lot of characters' ages).
@@Skypirateinc I'm taking the year in which Cersei was born (266 ac) and the year of Joanna's death (273 ac). I don't remember the show ever even mentioning Cersei's age.
Ellaria doesn't try to get war in the books. She even tries to discourage the older Sandsnakes from seeking revenge:
"Oberyn wanted vengeance for Elia. Now the three of you want vengeance for him. I have four daughters, I remind you. Your sisters. My Elia is fourteen, almost a woman. Obella is twelve, on the brink of maidenhood. They worship you, as Dorea and Loreza worship them. If you should die, must El and Obella seek vengeance for you, then Dorea and Loree for them? Is that how it goes, round and round forever? I ask again, where does it end? I saw your father die. Here is his killer. Can I take a skull to bed with me, to give me comfort in the night? Will it make me laugh, write me songs, care for me when I am old and sick?" (ADWD chapter 38) She should be in A-tier.
Also, I wouldn't consider Jon Catelyn's stepson. By definition, a stepchild would be a child from her spouse's previous relationship, but Jon is the result of infidelity. He didn't exist when Catelyn & Eddard got married, and she never agreed to raise him. A-tier is alright for her though.
Ellaria is the only voice that would keep the Sand Snakes safe and Dorne out of war. I think Alex is confusing book Ellaria with show Ellaria.
You're totally right, but Cait is S tier in my rank; It's not Just that Jon is a child of infidelity, but most people seem to judge their entire relationship by the scene in Bran's room, it is quite obvious that it was an extreme situation for both of them, you can see Caitlyn's grief there and George himself has said so; Caitlyn was not abusive to Jon, Jon was not mistreated by Caitlyn, she was cold to him, and that's it, you don't have an obligation to treat every child as your own just because they live close by, would you expect Cersei to raise all of Robert's bastards? NO, 'cause that's an insane expectation, it simply happens that we like Ned, so we are unwilling to judge the implications of his lie about Jon's paternity and we like Jon, so we want to see him as a victim because he sees himself as a victim, but none of that is Caitlyn's problem.
@@fischbrotchen7 you are absolutely right, I was confusing show and book Ellaria! (I'm ill with sinusitis atm so I'm gonna blame that for my muddy brain)
Great quote btw ♥️
12:40
At first glance, it seems like an insane decision, but I wonder just how much pressure Lord Commander Snow had to put on her. It certainly couldn’t have been easy. I've always seen that scene as a moment that reveals how much Jon Snow has changed. The Jon we knew as a bastard in the earlier books wouldn’t have had the strength or authority to ask something like this. But by A Dance with Dragons, Jon's experiences have transformed him. He's become much more like Stannis than he probably cares to admit, adopting an 'ends justify the means' mentality.
I never viewed Gilly agreeing to the baby swap as a negative thing. Jon likely gave her his word that no harm would come to her son. Loving your own child is one thing, but loving someone else’s child-especially when it puts your own at risk-is far more difficult. Catelyn couldn’t do it, even though she probably tried (I know their situations are different). Gilly was the only one who could guarantee Mance’s baby’s safety, and she made the ultimate sacrifice. It’s such a powerful reflection of her character, showing the depth of her empathy and kindness. How many women, especially highborn ones, would make such a choice?
Gilly is an A-tier mother, but an S-tier human.
@@Stxrk this is a great analysis, definitely sways me that I should have ranked Gilly higher
The book is actually quite explicit; Jon told her if she didn't agree to the switch, Melissandre would burn Mance's baby, he put her hand on the fire to make her imagine how that would feel; she offered to take them both, and he said one of them had to stay or else they would notice, when asked about the implication of that being that Gilly's baby would be the one to burn, he said he would then tell them the truth, but no one knows if that will work since Jon is currently dead; the mention of it probably means the child is going to the pyre. But yeah, there was a lot of pressure.
Interesting thing to think about 🧐🧐
wow. daenerys is exactly like those dog owners who spoil their pets when theyre puppies but then don't train them so they bite someone and then the owner will chain them up.... problematic!!!
No, she's not; dragons are not like dogs; the books are very clear that dragons cannot be completely tammed; it's more like spoiling aligators, whatever you do, they will always be predators, you can't expect them not to hunt and she has no idea on how to train them, she's the first one to hatch dragons in over a century and she is 14, what do you expect her to do? what would you have done to train a dragon? How do you expect to feed them if they're not allowed to hunt? she's on a ship on her way to Astapor when the dragons start hunting, would you have caged them? what's the biggest cage you can afford? what's the biggest cage you can place on a ship? how many ship owners would allow a cage with angry caged dragons on their ships? the books are also clear on the fact that dragons don't grow as much while kept indoors, you would need to abuse them A LOT for the dog comparison to work.
I would put Gilly A because the baby swap wasn't her choice and she has a lot a bad choices and she took least bad.
The problem with Danyres her children grow to be big flying reptiles that breath fire. Dany Targaryen is in a situation where her knowledge of dragons are coming from third hand accounts and no one has real experience with them. House Targaryens and those who were dragon keepers are all dead with first hand account with handling them. All the dragons were hunting and killing sheep and shepherd alike. Dany Targaryen was put in a no win situation because she couldn't stop her dragons killing people while getting a bit of mutton when she wasn't with them
Rank some other mothers....
Elia
Jon snows's
High garden's
Sapphire isle's etc
Catalan should be B at best. She pushed Ned to go south and get involved in politics, when he was unsuited for that role.
And just so her kid could be a princess, without knowing her betrothed at all , she and Otto are super selfish to me
Strongly agree. While she's not the 'world's worst mom', Cat plays favorites among her children -- even among her trueborns.She is responsible for 'othering' the children that are not her blood in Ned's care, which includes both Jon and Theon. If both had more of a sense of family and belonging, certain events might not have played out quite the same. Undermining Rob and not respecting his command cost the Starks deeply.
She's not Ned's mother, and he was already involved in politics, the king was in their castle asking him to go south, and she's totally right, Robert wouldn't have taken "no" very well, plus, he would have named Jaimie hand, the very same guy who pushed Brand from the tower. It's not her fault that Ned chose to spill the beans to Cersei.
Catelyn = C. Her treatment of Jon Snow was abominable. Sansa, Arya, Bran and Rickon were entitled and bratty. Bran became a demigod which covers for his youthful limits. Jon and Robb turned out well. Catelyn can't claim credit for Jon's triumphs.
Jon wasnt her child, Sansa, Arya, Bran and Rickon were all children, Rickon still basically a baby at the start of the series they are going to be bratty from time to time. They all grew up at different points. The worst thing IMO she did was leaving Bran and Rickon to join Rob in warring and leaving Bran and Rickon to be raised by the Maestor and ser Roderick and letting Rickon have 0 control over shaggydog, that direwolf terrorized the castle lol
We're ranking mothers, not random women who live close by and don't like you;; Caitlyn is not Jon's mother nor has she ever attempted to be, she didn't agree to raise him, he didn't even exist when she and Ned got married, he wasn't part of the deal. Jon is a child of infidelity, she doesn't have to love him and what you call "her treatment of Jon" is based on a single scene; George himself has clarified that Caitlyn didn't abuse or mistreat Jon, the scene in Bran's bedroom is due to exceptional circumstances, she wasn't mean to Jon, she just didn't like him.
I dont think you understand the social role of bastards in the setting. Cat was never Jons mom; and to her Jon was a constant reminder her husband banged another woman. Bastards are also bad for political reasons as they can lead to conflict in terms of sucession; like the Blackfyres for example. Cat was gonna do everything to make Rob and the rest of her actual children as legitimate as possible; and expecting the woman to be a mother to someone she neither birthed nor honestly really wanted there is pretty crazy
@benross9174 The social role assigned to bastards in that setting was a form of evil. Catelyn's treatment of Jon was evil. Catelyn was evil.
@@sdzielinski If your analysis of the situation is that black and white/one dimensional I dont really think you are getting that much from the book series. This is a series about the heart being in conflict with itself, love vs duty, different duties in conflict and so on. Cat never even mistreated Jon she was just cold to him. And one angry outburst a singular time ever due to her thinking her son was gonna die. And that was solely due to a lack of information cause Ned didnt tell her. Thats not «evil» or whatever