DHC-6 Twin Otter Ferry Flight Crash 20 May 2023
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- Опубликовано: 22 май 2023
- An attempted Ferry Flight from CA to Hawaii gone wrong.
LINKS: UPDATE: ATC Audio: clyp.it/x3bxgsbl
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UPDATE! ATC Audio: clyp.it/x3bxgsbl
Off topic, did you see the news that USAF ret. Major Brian Shul has passed? His stories about the SR-71 were fantastic.
@@derbuckeyetribe9789 yep.
Based on years of flying float planes in the arctic during summers I know that open water landings on lakes let alone open ocean is extremely hazardous and difficult. When a float plane landing goes bad you find them hanging upside down in the water from their floats. Always a haunting sight when looking for an overdue plane. Even if the landing on open water is successful waves and swells can easily capsize an aircraft that is not a purpose built flying boat. It’s paramount to find an area sheltered from the fetch when landing a float plane.
@@derbuckeyetribe9789 What a great speaker he was! :( Favorite quote of his: "I was going to run like a locomotive!"
With the audio gave me chills knowing the Fate that plane
Coast Guard used to have a cutter stationed halfway between Hawaii and California called "Ocean Station November" for weather information, radio communications and emergency assistance for trans-Pacific airplanes. In 1956, a Pan Am Boeing 377 had to ditch at sea next to a cutter---and all 31 passengers and crew made it safely onto the cutter as the aircraft sank 12 minutes after ditching. The station was closed in 1974.
That is great info, never knew it. As a pilot myself flying over that much open ocean takes more guts than I have when in a small plane
There also was a MATS C-97 which had to do the same thing on that run. The B377/C-97/B-29 engines were notoriously unreliable.
The Coast Guard is the first target in federal spending cuts. They barely have the budget to patrol one boat in the Seattle region, which is an international border!
@@wallacegrommet9343 the sad state of fiat money…
Great information, thanks~
10k Twin Otter pilot here. Standard fuel gives you 4 hrs of flight time plus minus very little playing with altitudes and power settings. At ferry flight take off weight, you can't really pull the power back much, so you are burning about 350-400 lbs per side per hour. There is an "active" fuel feed into the number 4 and 5 cell, as they are the collector cells with the boost pumps located in them. They remain full until all fuel is used from "normal" cells and only then does the fuel level start to decrease in the collector tank. The ferry tanks connect to the number 1 and 7 cells (same as the filler necks) via the vent tubes for these cells (two vent tubes per cell).Fuel level per tank is a total value given by the four fuel probes (one in each cell) with a low level probe located in each collector cell (illuminates with about 15 min of fuel remaining in the collector cells).
Based on the flight time, they were unable to transfer any fuel from the ferry tanks to the aircraft tanks. There is no reason to allow the main fuel tanks to fall much below full during the initial portion of the flight. The fuel in the aircraft tanks is being transferred to the collector cells, this lowers the fuel level in the normal cells faster than the indicated total fuel level and leaves "more" room for the ferry tanks fuel. Going to the point of no return on the main tanks prior to testing ferry fuel tanks transfer is. not advisable or required. On the 400, with all the fancy Honeywell Apex avionics, auto pilot, two crew, the work load is really not that high, she's a simple, reliable and beautiful to fly machine.
Thank you. Pretty sure, based on your description, that this was a bad call on the pilots' part, for not having the aux tanks set to flow from the start.
@@daeln6065and unfortunately, they paid with their lives for this misstep. So very unforgiving of oversights, forgetfulness, not testing things before embarking on a six hour flight, over the ocean of all places….. the most unforgiving place of all.
In the 1990's a Twin Otter being ferried to New Zealand had to ditch in similar circumstances before it reached Hawaii from memory. On that occasion the crew declared an emergency and a Coast Guard C-130 intercepted them and laid out a flare path on the ocean for them as it was at night. I cannot remember the fate for the crew on that occasion. I personally have over a thousand hours on Twin Otters, the most enjoyable plane I ever flew, handled like a big Cessna 172 and could land and take off from very small unpaved airstrips. One flight we regularly did was 2.5 hours over water to a remote Island. I never had a problem, they are in general a very reliable plane in standard trim. The fuel tanks are in the belly to make fueling from drums in remote areas easy which we often did where I worked.
The crew of the accident you've referred to did indeed survive the night ditching, the USCG managed to contact a nearby cargo vessel to go and pick up the crew post-ditching. One of the crew onboard that flight was Mike Allsop, who wrote a very in-depth account of the flight and accident in a chapter of his book "High Altitude". It's a very good read, would definitelty recommend it.
I think you are talking about Great Barrier Air, they lost their Twin Otter ferrying it back from the USA at night short of Hawaii the cause was too smaller pipe work for the transfer to the main tanks resulting in them running out of usable but still having lots in the ferry tanks
on this flight, they ditched in the worst possible area..in relatively shallow, rough and rocky waters. They should have headed out to the deeper part of the ocean and ditched, they may have had a chance.
I remember reading about Earhart's and Noonan's transfer system on their flight. Noonan had to go back in the cabin to turn the transfer valve. It couldn't be reached from the cockpit. He also did his navigation calculations there on a desk.
I know a ferry pilot who took off from Hawaii to the mainland with a twin otter and lost an engine 1/2 hour out from Hawaii. Due to being at 18000 lbs on takeoff instead of 12500lbs he started loosing altitude and descended to 8 feet above water where is was able to maintain altitude in ground effect on a single engine. His next worry was is he going to be able to climb high enough to reach the airport in Hawaii. He made it safely. These are risky trips and you have to prepare for all possible scenarios in order to lower the risk.
Flying 1/2hr in ground affect? Holy cow! I guess he burned off enough fuel/weight to gain enough altitude to get to the airport?
If he had any guts, he would have flown to the mainland in ground effect. He would have certainly been light enough to make the airport, AND delivered the plane!😝
After picking up a new Mooney 201 from the tank installer in Kerrville,Tx., my engine quit about halfway to the runway during taxi. Turns out the installer forgot to cut the fuel handle to the correct length and the fuselage tank blocked the handle from pointing to the correct setting therefore off by 180 degrees. We always tested the aux tanks before taking off on the main tanks. Destination was Sydney, Australia.
"the installer forgot to cut the fuel handle to the correct length" You would think that someone would notice the error before clearing the Plane to Fly?
Details please on how you got a Mooney 201 from Kerrville to Sydney!
@@taustin266 Seats removed, aluminum fuel tank in the rear that went to the ceiling. Wedge shaped tank on the copilot’s floor that went to the rudder pedals. Santa Barbara to Honolulu to Samoa to Norfolk Island to Lord Howe Island (a sightseeing stop) to Sydney. Longest leg was 14 hours. Two Mooneys in loose formation. Other pilot used sextant to navigate (OMG). This was 1978, no GPS. We flew 10% over gross weight fully fueled.
@@sanfranciscobay This was the first time I had seen this installation and I turned the fuel handle to what I thought was the on position. Thank goodness we always used the mains for take off.
@@leedaero That's awesome. Thanks for sharing!
I have worked on and installed a few ferry tank systems on Otters back in the day, Our ferry system used rigid aluminum tanks but I imagine these turtle tanks are plumbed in much the same way. Ferry Fuel was gravity fed from the ferry tanks to the main tanks in the belly, via the tank vent system that is illustrated in that viking schematic that was shown in the video. you would have to manually open the feed from the ferry tanks with a simple ball valve located in the cabin with the tanks. My memory is a little foggy on this but from what i recall because of the way the ferry tanks were plumbed into the vent system if you failed to open the feed valve from the ferry tanks you could create a fuel starvation issue even though the main tanks were full, due to the suction created from the now blocked vent system.
I have thousands of hours in the short-field (and short-legged) DHC-6-300, and even ferried one from Iceland to Kenya. The instinctive rule of using ferry tanks is simple: Test the functioning of the ferry fuel transfer system as soon as practical (which is usually within the first hour of flight). Even if properly installed and tested before flight, these are one-off installations and thus liable to unexpected snafus. Never underestimate the capacity of humans to muck things up! The people installing these systems have proper instructions and testing protocols, the weak link is usually the pilots which, in many cases, are not experienced ferry pilots.
Amen
Like to know Sarah Rovner's thought on this accident.
I knew one of the pilots of this plane. He was a very experienced aux tank mechanic and ferry pilot. I can't imagine what went wrong. RIP, good friend.
If this was Southern Cross Aviation doing the ferry (as referenced in the video), they've probably spent more time over water in a ferry configuration than you have spent in Twin Otters.
@@chrisblanch5730 Not likely, Chris. Halli (Halfdan Ingolfsson) was my chief pilot when we both flew for the Red Cross in Angola in the late 1980s - early 1990s. He had thousands of hours experience back then, and that was 35 years ago. As for me - I'm the guy who headed up the flight compartment modernization for the Series 400, designed the avionics installation, wrote the AFM (& ferry supplement), and did the initial delivery flight of this aircraft from the factory to the original purchaser. Halli's comment about testing the ferry system is spot-on.
Sounds like the pumped the extra fuel overboard through the vents, I was always taught to keep a fuel score sheet at every way-point or hour of flying. On ferry flights with a modified fuel system I always made a new check-list incorporating all the ferry tank procedures into one list. When flying with two pilots I would always discuss each fuel item on the check list as we read the list. Another thing I did was draw the fuel system out with each valve, pump and check valve clearly showing. All equipment installed in the aircraft was labeled with masking tape and a magic marker in big letters. Low time co-pilot looking at an unfamiliar fuel system in the middle of the night with a weak flash light is never a good option.
That could of been a possibility if the ferry tanks had a pump but not possible if the system was a gravity sys. to Fill the mains
If the ferry tanks had pumps and they selected them on after take off then the ferry fuel would of been pumped out the vents on the main system. they would been able to see the fuel leaving the wings at the vent in front of the Ailerons The twin otter has the simplest ferry tank system in the world if you choose the gravity system. but you must open and close valves and monitor your main tanks for when you need fuel from the ferry system
its like going to a gas station and filling you vehicle before it runs out of fuel
I’m not a pilot but read and listen to anything related to aviation,but what is the freight hauling on these ferry flights. I’ve learned so much Juan. Thanks
@@jimbeam7776 I see no response to your question, so even though it been posted a month ago, you may still find this in your notifications. These flights are ferry only flights. No cargo. Trying to get the aircraft to another area of the world to put into service. Cheers.
@@canuckwing0195 Just saw your response,took a trip out west, also took a vacation from social media! I retired from the trucking business and my last truck was a beautiful Peterbilt.
I ran out of fuel not to long after I bought it. But gauge showed 1/4 of a tank. What I learned was the gauge was for the left tank only and the valve to draw the fuel equally quit working ,it drained the right tank dry and started sucking air,I never ran of fuel again. This plane accident made me think of that day! Thank you for the comeback
It's always awesome to learn from others who have accumulated experience and have developed safety systems on ultra-long journeys, like ferry flights for example. Thanks for sharing! We can all learn from each other - it'll lead to a safer world of aviation.
Best YT aviation channel...period.
I second that!
I fly out of Santa Rosa and that plane was sitting in the Sonoma Jet Center FBO for quite some time leading up to the accident. The last I saw of it, around April/May, they were working on taking the floats off.
It’s incredibly sad to hear we lost two pilots and a beautiful airplane. Blue skies and tailwinds.
Yes readying plane for HI flight..do you know any mechanics that worked on that plane engines, fuel,b4 takeoff? MAY 20TH?
Back in 2003 we lost a PAC 750XL going from NZ to the USA that also ran out of fuel. I have heard rumors that it was slowly venting fuel the whole time. He also didn't survive the ditching
Even if you had floats on, landing in the middle of the Pacific Ocean especially without engine power carries a very high risk of flipping.
The question would be, given they had 15 min of fuel, why not land just before fuel runs out? Say at 14 min
I believe the Landing pods were removed limit the drag airframe to help increase fuel efficiency
@@bobroberts2371 well I wasn’t there, so I can’t speak for what those guys were going through, and I don’t like to back seat quarterback even if I know the whole story (which I don’t), it’s different when you’re sitting in the seat. But I can tell you that even if they did land on the open ocean successfully, the surf is plenty big enough to flip a little airplane like that, and that’s assuming you have engine power and floats (which we don’t know if the airplane was float equipped, it sounds like it wasn’t). If you don’t have engine power, even if you land successfully, you won’t have much control keeping the airplane oriented correctly to the swells and or winds.
How long can you fly when the 10 minute fuel warning light comes on? Until you run out of fuel. That can be 20 minutes more. I know. Experience
That is why I got my sea plane rating in a boat hull sea plane, and only would fly retractable gear out over the ocean.
I happen to know one of the two pilots involved. He was a man very experienced in both installing and using aux tanks for ferry flights. Knowing him well, I cannot imagine what went wrong in this case. Tragic. RIP, good friend.
Thanks,I really appreciate knowing that the pilot was experienced with this setup, now we can concentrate on putting more thought into other causes.
Thank you for posting, very sorry about the loss of your friend and a good pilot.
The planes are built about 10 minutes from my home.
Sorry for your loss. I think I found part of this plane way down in the Monterey Bay a week after.
Sorry for the loss of your friend.
Sorry for your loss. As a DH6 ferry pilot, our system has the main pump, a backup, and a hand pump if all goes wrong. of course I don't know the details in this case but feel like the redundancy could have saved their lives. Never have had to use the aux pumps myself
Just WOW. Juan you always do a outstanding job of explaining a complicated subject in aviation. Always enjoy your videos.
Regarding "shark-infested" waters... Many people don't realize that most Great Whites are in the area from September to November, when they migrate to Baja or Hawaii.
Don't get me wrong, the Farallons (or anywhere in within the "red triangle") certainly wouldn't be where I would want to ditch! However, had they survived, their odds of not becoming fish food, would have been far better in May! Hypothermia would have been the larger concern.
Minor point, but just keeping it real!
Good point . Those GWs are also known to leave the area when orcas show up. Knew a guy when I lived in California who got attacked at the Farrollons while AB diving. He survived but his right arm was really damaged
Majority of great whites won't even attack people
If this was in fact a failure of the long range fuel system, they should have had a check at a certain point before halfway through the main fuel system to see if continuing was a "Go", or "NO GO". That way if there was a failure in the system, it would be caught before you were screwed. Maybe a checklist modification for these type of flight is needed?
That’s standard on long range flights. It’s listed on the ATPL exams. No checklist needed. Hen you’re doing a flight like this you’re watching and calculating your fuel every 15mins.
Leave it to the NTSB investigation to figure out the cause and recommendations. We have no way of knowing what specifically went wrong.
@@SnakebitSTI This is the RUclips comment section. These experts will figure it out by tomorrow morning.
I flew some spotter missions with 413 Sqn over the Atlantic, and it was always pretty clear that the oceans are not very inviting when the swells are up. My condolences to the families.
I used to take these to work many days when I lived in Alaska. They are a staple for going between islands. RIP to all.
I was leaving SFO as the coast guard was being dispatched to look for it. The ceiling and visibility to the west was pretty awful.
The plane had fixed landing gear, both pilots experienced in Ferry flights, both pilots were also A&P mechanics. They spoke to the ferry tank mechanics by sat phone for 1 hour to no avail.
Do you know if the plane had the optional wing tip tanks installed?
.
When I worked at PA Airport, we used to setup aircraft for ferrying to NZ or Australia with radio navigation systems. Was a big buisness at the time in the mid 80's. I believe it was Navistar systems in use back then. The ferry tanks were done either at Oakland or Hayward airport with custom aluminum tanks. Smaller aircrafts we disassembled and packed into 40 or 60 foot shipping containers. 150's, 152's and 172's. Very sad to hear this. One aircraft was improperly vented once which should have been debugged on the ground as a high power extended run up before flight, but had a cocktail pilot who decided to take it into the air with out this. Fortunatly, the pilot didn't have. 100% power loss, instead a wave form power consistency at full throttle. Power was from full to a reduced power, back to foll to a reduced level till he fought it back to the ground in the pattern. This was a 182 rg and it had NO extra room with 1 pilot. Thanks Juan, well done!!!
When I'm cave diving I carry two air supplies. I switch supplies when I've used 1/3rd of the first supply keeping 2/3rds remaining. If I was to switch later than that and the second supply didn't work I may not have enough to get back. If I switched after using 1/2 and there was a malfunction of the second supply I'd die.
I love your detailed explanations of the incidents. They are very informative. Every pilot should view your channel.
we have similar usernames
Fuel bladders are sometimes used on boats, as well. In marine usage, best practice is to first burn sufficient fuel from the permanent tank(s) so that an entire bladder can be emptied into the now available space. That is because the bladders are relatively stable and controllable when they are 100% full (or 100% empty, of course), but can be difficult or dangerous to manage in a seaway when they are partially full. You really don’t want a big, squishy bag of fuel threatening to become unsecured on your deck when you are already preoccupied dealing with big waves and high wind.
I’m curious whether there are similar concerns for aviation usage of fuel bladders.
Hoping that Juan sees this post and answers this interesting question.
Amen brother. They are like an angry elephant when less than half full..
I've watched several videos of ocean crossing in small aircraft and they tended to feed the main tanks quite often preferring to have it full in case they ran into a transfer issue.
Read about this the day it happened and couldn’t wait to see your video on it - knowing it was coming. Well done
I always, after one hour into a ferry, checked the transfer feed system before committing.
Did a ferry flight across the Atlantic on a C_303 crusader. After two hours into the flight observed fuel venting from the wing tanks. Turned out that the installed ferry tank was over filling the main tanks. Fortunately we discovered this in time, shut off the ferry tank temporarily and arrived safe on destination. Might have had a different outcome, had it been a night flight.
A good explanation Juan the Twin Otter Design will accommodate simplest ferry tank system in the world of aircraft
With Ferry tanks Gravity will feed the mains on this system they turned back after 2 hours. PNR with standard fuel capacity without Wing tip tanks. bad miscalculation
if the aircraft had wing tip tanks they would of made it
Ive been in the twin otter business as a AME for 30 years and I have never heard of of a DHC-6 running out of fuel with ferry tanks
Looks to be a airlock problem in the fuel feed from the turtle bags. If the lines were not properly purge of air before fuel was loaded it can happen.
I noticed your remark about whether it was tested. I was thinking as I was listening that such a modification should be tested operationally before heading overseas, because of its critical importance.
Tragic! Living in Hawaii I often check my flight tracker app to see what’s going on in our sky. Just over a week ago I clicked on a an aircraft from California to Hawaii and saw that it was a small prop-plane! I haven’t seen many of those and I immediately thought, wow what a dangerous thing to do in a piston engine propeller aircraft! So many things can go wrong. Good explanation show Juan.
...no one cares that you "live in Hawaii." 🤦
Thank you for sharing. Sorry to hear of this. Condolences to all family and friends. RIP.
Please do an analysis of the Phoenix Air Lear crash off of the coast of California. I knew the FO, personally. I'm waiting every day for a cause. I would love to see your take. The ADS-B data is baffling.
We were at Ocean Beach in San Francisco at the hour of the crash, and my family photos show a thick fog layer and there was strong onshore wind. Also saw a Bell 407 and a Blackhawk flying down the coast in tandem about 800'MSL over the water. Didn't look like Coast Guard ships though. They flew back north and disappeared around Land's End a little while later.
Great presentation Juan, highlighting the hazards of long range ferry flights with no alternates available. I noticed that the crew were operating at 12,000ft. As this aircraft is unpressurized, did the crew have any oxygen and if so were they using it? As we know hypoxia is insidious and causes rapid heart rate, breathing difficulties and degrading of cognitive functions, especially above 10,000ft. This of course includes the ability to handle non standard fuel feed and crossfeed systems. This is particularly relevant if a crew member had any pre existing medical conditions which can accelerate the onset of hypoxia. My condolences to the friends and families of the crew.
Excellent reporting, thanks
Thanks for these kinds of videos, from every video I learn something new
RIP to those pilots and families.
Thx Juan for covering the complexities of ferry flights over long distances
A major source of airplane loss for the Japanese in WWII was flights from the factories in Japan to the islands where the combat was. It's an untold story but they lost a LOT of aircraft that way.
Sad,,, Boy Juan Does a Great Job,,, Very Knowledgeable....
man are you still flying, Pappy Boyington. I remember your success in keeping the Japs from reaching the then capital of China, with the famous flying Tigers flying Curtis Hawks. Still volunteering in more modest endeavours?
Last time I saw you was in Gillespie Field, when you were selling your book "Life of black sheep one"
It’s not worth the risk ! Just take the wings off and ship these aircraft to the Islands via container ship ! In many cases low time pilots building time for their next job ! Another accident waiting to happen no experience! My hart goes out to the family of these pilots !
Thanx Juan , your the best at reporting these accidents! The aviation community appreciates your excellent reporting !
No. That causes more damage to the aircraft.
@@blancolirio Not if theres proper supervision and maintenance available ! We are talking human life ! I know it may cost more to the aircraft manufacturer but there’s to many variables to safely cross the pond in aircraft that are not designed
For such a crossing especially single engine aircraft ! But you and I know it all comes down to the dollar ! The FAA and the manufactures are in the bed together on this one ! And I don’t need to tell you that human lives are more important than an aircraft !
Sincerely Captain Mark H Wirth
True Safety Is No Accident
It should be designed to be easily disassembled and packed in a container. One problem, though, is that it is longer than a 40-foot container.
1000s of ferry flights a year without incident. And you think disassembly of an airframe is a better idea? LAUGHING OUT LOUD.
@@markhwirth7718 How is the aircraft manufacturer involved in this as the aircraft was not new? You know nothing to make these accusations.
I would imagine that the standard procedure for a flight like this is to take off using the main tanks then to run the fuel transfer pump system to "top off" those tanks shortly after reaching cruise altitude. That way you test the fuel transfer system when you still have plenty of fuel left to return to land if the transfer system didn't work.
Probably shouldn’t speculate here. It sounds like a gravity feed system was in place. Probably a manual fuel valve. The procedure might have been to burn at least the amount in the ferry tank before transferring. Weight and balance also comes into play. Lots of unpack here.
There might have been a fuel leak too.
Agreed on not speculating. If there are any DHC-6 ferry pilots around, let them speculate. Otherwise, it's best to be patient and wait for more information.
Should have redundant flow on long flights
@@drewski57309
I would not put much faith in those straps holding down the tanks of fuel.
I've ditched an eleven seat twin in the Pacific in rough seas, the deceleration forces as you plow into the backside of a wave will over stress those flimsy tie downs for sure. The only reason my passenger and I are here today was because I was wearing a helmet.
I can't imagine anything more horrifying to have to ditch by those islands, no thanks. Brings to mind the Indianapolis.
This aircraft ended up ditching 40 miles off the California coast, however, in waters inhabited by Great White sharks, as mentioned. The two on board never made it out of the cockpit to worry about sharks.
@@jimw1615 I figured that, I was just saying, that place is polluted with great whites especially when the rooky is in full swing. Sad thing all around.
@@captbad9313 Roger that.
As usual, an excellent explanation of the known specifics of this accident. Thanks again, Juan. Great presentation.
I work in Santa Rosa. I'm sad to hear of the loss of this plane and pilots.
Not sure if anyone has noticed this yet. We lost Major Brian Shul USAF ret. on May 20, 2023. According to what I've read so far it was cardiac arrest.
That is sad to hear ( or read ) as I loved his SR 71 recap . Just hilarious
I had not heard that but I had been thinking of him for some reason. What an incredible man he was!
Thanks Juan. Great description. What a horrible loss.
I'm going to call Situational Awareness on that one...fuel consumption issues should have been more than clear after the first hour considering an Over Gross climb out... One hour out with three more hours of fuel, they should have been able to RTB... Flying out of STS you have to wonder if they were the lowest cost/experience pilots...
They flew out of STS.
@@jjxtwo1 Thx
Horrible accident. Condolences to families & friends. A lot of good information in your excellent video, Juan.
The Viking information document shows economy cruise to be 146 KTAS (125 KCAS) at 10,000 feet. They were apparently flying this speed outbound and inbound. I wonder if this is actually the absolute best range speed achievable. It seems a bit high. In any event, best range speed is determined in the "real world" by maximising ground speed divided by fuel flow, which automatically accounts for wind.
The literature online says at best economy 146kts at 10000ft the burn rate is 468lbs per hour. Configuration is wheels.
Standard tanks are 2590lbs. That’s 5hrs and 31mins before zero fuel.
ADS-B data shows the airplane was airborne for 5hrs and 32mins.
Your comment does not have enough visibility;)
I use that same brand for running our boat back and forth from NJ to FL. They are amazing and robust. I use a 160 gallon version and I will get me and additional 80 miles or more depending on sea state and cruise speed. However as you mentioned we don't transfer fuel until there is room in the main tanks for the 80 ish gallons per side. Very sad story. Such a capable aircraft. I would agree to ship pontoons with the seats removed for less drag. Great video as always.
What would be the gain doing it that way instead of making a fuel stop? My only WAG on that would be time dropping off set course and getting in and out of the harbor to fuel.
@@natural-born_pilot ????
Fuel stop on the way from California to Hawaii ?
Wonder if they did a practice or a test flight first?
Sad to hear that the crew was lost. But lessons can be learned from this.
Condolences to family and friends. RIP.
Great info. thanks.
I hope they can recover the aircraft from the ocean so they can determine what went wrong. It almost sounds like there was no flow from the ferry tanks into the mains as the total flight time with just the standard and aux would have been what they had available. Could be something as simple as an electrical problem with the pumps used to pull fuel out of the ferry tanks. Or like too many accidents, it was an error or misunderstanding in how the system operates. Worst case, didn't create a step by step checklist and missed something crucial like filling the tanks with fuel or test it in the days leading up to the flight.
According to what was shown, the ferry tanks fed to standard tanks by gravity, with the standard tanks being below the ferry tanks. Since gravity rarely fails I would guess a plumbing problem or lack of understanding how to direct the fuel.
@@mike03a3 Occum's Razor: the simplest explanation is the best one. I.e., pilot error.
@@mike03a3yes, it's possible a misplumbed system could have worked on the ground and then dumped all the fuel from the bladders overboard with suction created by airflow over a vent.
If you fly more than half the main tank away from land before confirming that the fuel transfer works then you don't have many options if it doesn't work.
When cave diving I switch to the second supply after using 1/3rd of the first supply. If it doesn't work, I can still get back to the cave entrance.
@@mike03a3 Mike, my reading about the Turtle-Pac fuel bladders on their site and from a video put on by its CEO, I understand that their fuel bladders all use a fuel pump in each bladder and require no vent in the bladder because they collapse as they empty.
Great job explaining the situation which is somewhat complex. Feeling great sadness for the pilots and the family of.
Thanks @blancolirio for breaking this one down.
i’m not an otter pilot i fly Skyvans, but i’ve done a couple of long range ferry’s with 12h+ flying time.. we have the T into system that means you burn off the auxiliary fuel first and standard fuel stays full all the time.. biggest issue for us is that you rely on boost pumps as the tanks are below the engines and you need a higher pressure than the fuel in the normal tanks to use up the ferry system. but basically you run very soon (as soon as reaching safe altitude) on the ferry system.. so if something’s not working you notice it quickly.
wondering if they shut down an engine to extend their range in the later part, thus the descend and the hand flown flightpath.
I did not know a skyvan could fly for 12+ hours without 12+ hours of maintenance on the ground! ;) ;) ;)
What do you mean by ferry? they have extra fuel onboard?
@@samholdsworth420 Moving a plane from one location to another location. It can be that someone on the west coast of the USA bought a plane on the east coast and wants it to be delivered to them, or flights such as this one that goes from the mainland to an island somewhere. It's a fancy way of saying that the plane is being moved to another location. If there can be no fuel stops and the planes normal fuel load won't be sufficient to make the flight, auxiliary tanks can be installed in order to have enough fuel for the flight duration. California to Hawaii requires more fuel than the plane would normally carry. Temporary tanks/fuel bladders were installed so the plane had sufficient fuel to make the flight, provided everything worked properly. In this case it looks like a fuel system failure and the plane simply ran out of the fuel it could access.
FYI Twotter fuel tanks are in the belly.
@@discofun yea i said it`s a different system on skyvan and otter and was highlighting the difference in operation. The Systems that don`t top-off the main tanks are IMO not a disadvantzage as you keep the mains full and use the aux right aways and you don`t have to manage refilling and possible loss through vents by overfilling etc..
Thank you Juan . regards liz.
Thank you for the video.
So many tragedies. They keep you busy. Thanks Juan
We had both DHC-6's and Sikorsky S-61's that we use auxiliary fuel tanks to ferry or use on long range airborne survey's. The only time in nearly 8-years in the field was when one pilot turned on the aux fuel transfer switch on preflight and forgot to turn it back off. I got a radio call saying they were returning with fuel pouring down the left side of the aircraft, the fuel vents are located between the left passenger windows, as they taxi towards me at 2AM I could see liquid pouring down the side onto the tarmac. There was no place for the aux fuel to go but overboard via the vents. Fuel stains on the fuselage was less than a foot from the exhaust, close one. We had leaks on the Twin Otters from poor fitting fuselage main fuel caps., but very minor. As far as this incident were the ferry tank valve manually or electrical opened, popped CB?
Juan u have a great channel
I'd think it would be a checklist item that on these ferry flights where aux tanks are used, you'd check transfer or use-fullness otherwise of your entire fuel supply as soon as cruise altitude is reached.
Details. The men took off in the Twin Otter about 8:20 a.m. Saturday from the Charles M. Schulz-Sonoma County Airport on a flight path to Honolulu, Hawaii, according to preliminary flight data.
The plane flew southwest for about two hours before turning around about 10:40 a.m., according to tracking by Flightradar.
The pilots radioed that they were heading back to Santa Rosa. Eventually, they changed course and directed the plane to Half Moon Bay.
At 1:30 p.m., the Coast Guard received a report from the Oakland Air Route Traffic Control Center about the aircraft. The guard issued an urgent marine information broadcast asking for boaters southwest of the Farallon Islands to look for a potentially downed plane.
A Coast Guard helicopter crew was the first to spot the aircraft, which had gone into the water about 2:15 p.m. and had significant damage, Stuckey said.
The pilots’ names have not been released.
A Coast Guard helicopter first arrived on scene at 2:27 p.m. where a rescue swimmer found the two pilots’ bodies still strapped in their seats of the overturned airplane, said U.S. Coast Guard Lt.j.g. Jillian Stuckey.
The Coast Guard did not recover the bodies due to safety concerns for their swimmers. Fireside Partners, a worldwide emergency response specialist, was hired by the plane owner’s insurance company to recover the bodies, Stuckey said.
2 pilots killed on Santa Rosa plane on way to Hawaii reported fuel problem before crash
The plane identified in Saturday's crash off the San Mateo Coast is a Viking Air DHC-6-400 Twin Otter, tail number N153QS, shown at Atlanta Fulton County (Brown Field) on August 14, 2022. (Via planespotters.net)
The jurisdiction that takes over the death investigation “will depend on where the recovery specialists bring the wreckage after it is recovered,” Sulick told The Press Democrat in an email Tuesday.
The plane’s recovery efforts were paused as of Monday due to “high seas” and are expected to resume later this week, she said.
Thanks! for the report.
Feel for the pilots family. Its tough getting planes out to the islands but worth it.
Ferry pilots sometimes like to run the wing tanks down before starting transferring fuel from the ferry tank. this gives them a more aft CG and makes them go faster. These pilots might have forgotten to test the transferring unit, only to realized that the transferring unit failed when they were too far from CA.
Irrelevant to this as Twin Otter fuel tanks are in the belly.
At ferry weight, the twin otter actually has a faster TAS with a more fwd CG.
The A&P who signed the log books on the tanks install is going to get a subpoena. The aircraft likely remained floating. Hopefully recovered soon then we will eventually know whether it was pilot error or botched install....
Reports like Blanco's are why I never waste my time watching TV news anymore.
JUAN,HELLOthanks for the data on this sad loss of life flight,I guess it was not tried out before attempting the ferry flight, sad,but if they retrieve the aircraft,just maybe ,it could be determined as the reason, RIP,AND CONDOLENCIES, T O THEIR FAMILIES, ,,,,,,,, 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
Sad situation. Tom Lopes has helped with mods to my Dad's 185's for ferry flights to Alaska. We would burn from the left tank during fuel transfers to the right tank. Ferry flights are adventurous business. 15 hours non-stop from central California to Birchwood AK.
Another sad state of affairs JB. I gather that this crew did not survive?
Thanks for your update, your time and resources.
Btw, when the episode started I had to do a double take as I thought I saw eye lashes flapping over your left eye, but it turned out to be the ceiling fan behind you.
Take care and fly safe. 🤟🏼🖖🏼
Yes, the screen shot of the report he started with showed 2 fatalities.
Instead of watching eyelashes flap you should pay attention to the whole report it listed 2 fatalities.
You are really really good at this Juan
I'd be interested to know what the standard range was for this particular model of the Twotter.. ie. Would we have expected that without any additional ferry tanks, the aircraft would have made it to its final location, this might provide some clues as to whether the crew were getting correct indications as to whether fuel was in fact being transferred from the ferry tanks. I've had my share of problems while ferrying aircraft, it's an uncomfortable feeling when out over the ocean and suddenly being faced with a fuel issue.
All three of the Dehavilland machines ,Beaver, Otter and twin Otter have the fuel tanks in the belly of the aircraft, which is a northern bush pilot request, so the pilot wouldn't have get on top of the wings of an already very tall aircraft on floats, to fuel it.
Was there a fuel transfer test preformed after installation? If not the crew should have tested it after an hour or so. The main tank gages should have gone up. They also should have slowed down to best range speed which is a little faster than best glide speed. Most likely around 90 to 95 knots + half the head wind or 1/4 the tail wind speed. They were flying at 130 knots after they realized the fuel problem. If they did that, I think they could have made those islands. They were in the air 5:30 and turned around after 3:34 hours? The maximum endurance with standard tanks is 6.9 hours. However, I did not find a published maximum endurance airspeed. Just like Captain Sully couldn't find a check list for a duel engine failure.
In the FAA record, the fuel modification date code implies it is from 2015.
Oh damn. That's a Kenn Borek Air plane it looks like ! I flew on one of their ski-equipped twin otters when I worked in Antarctica, and we had one crash down there as well :/
Terrible to loss of lives I hope some information can be recovered from the wreck to help prevent such things.
I’ve met Tom Lopes, he flew 2 King Air C90B’s from Hawaii to California. I got to ferry both of them from CA to VA and the other to Florida. It’s on my channel
Good report. Sad story. That water off HMB is very rough certain parts of the year plus the Farallons and Sharks, oh my.
Oh those poor men and their families.
I am a commercial sea plane pilot and you must land parallel to the waves and into the wind if that is possible.
Of course, when you make the landing, the gear must be up, or you will flip.
Twin Otter is fixed gear.
@@johnmarshall6702 oh I know, that is the point I am trying to make. This particular airplane was modified to reduce drag and the floats removed and fixed gear reinstalled.
Not good for water Landings🫣
Are you implying that these pilots don't know what is taught in Pilot School 101?
@@discofun - I think he expects that some readers of this comment section might not know.
So please inform us how to raise the fixed gear before making a water landing.
This is so sad.
Our local jump Otter has a bad habit of fracturing fuel lines in the engine nacelle. Fuel overboard.
Juan Brown is to tragic plane crash coverage what Jim Cantore is to tragic storm coverage.
There have been times when the vent system on ferry tank designs have not functioned as intended, resulting in failure to feed or a tank collapse due to pressure differential.
Bladders in this case... no vent needed.
I took a photo of that plane here in Panama, exactly on Airport Marcos A. Gelabert😮
R.I.P pilots of that beauty😢
Thanks for explaining this complicated process of fuel system modifications required by ferry pilots.
I wonder why they did not survive the ditching. Was the plane in one piece. Did it appear to be a well controlled ditching? Was Marine layer so thick and low they could not see? Seems like it should have been a survivable event. Especially since they radioed their intentions and rescue help was not far away.
Perhaps they did but failed to make the egress.
Perhaps when it flipped over in the water, they couldnt figure out the right way to exit the plane with water pouring in and being upside down. Tragic.
Aircraft was upside down when coast guard arrived.... I'm guessing they were knocked unconscious on impact. Cockpit may have been partially submerged, and they drowned. Just my guess, since it was mentioned they were still strapped in and the lifeboat wasn't deployed.
Really? It's not like the ocean is glassy and it's just a doddle to land. Probably large swells in that area.
@@ArthurDentZaphodBeeb Ten-foot swells out there today. It's rarely calm near the Farallons.
Not surprising the tanks are in the belly area... the Beaver is a similar setup.. Thanks Juan!!
That's avgas in the belly? ...
@@awuma For turbine engines?? What do YOU think??
If they were very sure that they wouldn't make land, it appears that landing on South Farallon Island might have been an option. There appears to be 1,500 feet of fairly level land, but with a lot of rocks. Deadstick would have been tough, but if they still had power a Twin Otter might have done it OK. Another "IF" would be if they could have discussed that with someone familiar with the island-there are a handful of people living there. The plane would likely have been totaled, but they might have survived.
I spent a lot of time over those waters flying HH-60s with the 129th RSQW out of Moffett. It's dark and dangerous out there. You better plan on going upside down when ditching and have a HEEDS bottle.
I wonder what the typical range of the Twin Otter is, and how does it compare with the range this flight had before it crashed. ie as an indicator of fuel used.?
Seems strange how they aren't required an operational demonstration cert flight with all tanks and transfer systems tested before the actual flight attempt?
RIP
I'm wondering if the main tanks were not filled completely and then the aux. tanks then "filled" the main tanks, hiding the discrepancy. There are no gauges on the aux. tanks. The error wasn't discovered and they left without enough fuel.
I am in Santa Rosa and cannot imagine flying from our airport to HNL in a small plane, absolutely insane.
Those big jiggly rolly bladders are gods way of saying we need a bigger plane.
So true, I hate flying SFO-HNL in a 737. Put me on a 777-300ER any day…
I have Flown back and forth between sfo and hnl probably hundreds of times. I remember the Northwest DC 10s , deltas l1011s and ATAs L1011s. Now it's a321s ,737, and 777s . I prefer a wide body anyday
@@Jeff-sp7bg that brings back some memories. Flying on a PSA L10-11 into HNL. Lol.
@Bill Johnson I am not old enough to remember that BUT I read that PSA was a customer of the TriStar. That was always a comfortable flight and usually very smooth. Flew on them many times with Delta and ATA. So PSA must have not kept the Tristar for very long ? I didn't realize they Flew between the mainland and the islands. Interesting