P210 N1400 La Jolla CA 15 Nov 2023 Fuel Exhaustion
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- Опубликовано: 6 июн 2024
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Speaking as an active air traffic controller who helps develop training for other controllers about how best to respond to various kinds of inflight emergencies, I cannot emphasize enough to my fellow pilots that if we get into a low fuel situation we have to tell ATC so that we can help. PLEASE help us to help you, PLEASE don't run low on fuel without asking us for priority. A King Air pilot appears to have done something similar in Chicago recently. (Note -- because I am active FAA, I have to note that these are my personal views, and do not represent official FAA policy or opinion.)
Is there anything ATC can (or is permitted) say to a pilot if they sense things are going away? Are they allowed to prompt the declaration of an emergency?
Is it me or does he not trust his aircraft in an ifr situation, just asking would like someone's input on that, not qualified enough to make that determination 😮
ATC can declare an emergency for the pilot I believe, but don’t think that’s very common, given the responsibilities involved and the ensuing paperwork.
We can declare an emergency if we feel something warrants it but far too many controllers have absolutely zero flight experience. I work with people who could not care less what happens in the cockpit then get mad when a pilot tells them they can’t do a particular thing.
But far too often private pilots wait too long to ask for help. Your taxes pay us to sit there and help you. Just ask.
I had one of your brethren fuming mad once. Flying a piston twin (Navajo) he wanted me to immediately slow down & not exceed 150kts. Being that I was well above gear & flap speed I told him it would be awhile before I could stage cool enough to get slowed down. Oh he was mad I couldn’t just slow up like a turbine.
After some back and forth I finally told him I wasn’t going to abuse my engines.
Thank you for what you do though, really for every bad ATC encounter there’s been a 1000 great encounters. You guys & gals have been awesome.
The controller you can hear her being ancy and understands what's happening. Somebody needs to give her a hug and tell it weren't her fault.
Amen and gratitude for the controller keeping it all together. Another hug to her ...
Antsy
She definitely tried to save his life. Very sad.
DO NOT be afraid to communicate to ATC when you have a fuel situation! As a retired controller nothing is more frustrating than having a pilot ask for assistance way too late. We are there to help.
Or any problem that you’re having that is impacting your ability to fly and navigate safely. If he was having instrument problems and alerted them, he could have got help way before fuel became an issue. Same goes if you feel yourself struggling and getting behind the aircraft. I was never IFR rated, but even flying VFR at night can be stressful enough for single pilot. So sad he didn’t just clearly state his problem and get priority help sooner.
Feel bad for that controller. She was trying so hard to save this guy.
@@MeppyMan Right, when your situation might result in your death or that of others in your aircraft or on the ground. Who cares what anyone thinks on Freq. as you call for help. Any listeners or controllers will be happy that you did not end up crashing and lived if it was avoidable.
@@Cobalt135 yep. Only psychopaths would not want to help a fellow pilot regardless of the reason they got into trouble. There is a time for debriefing and dealing with the fallout of any mistakes made… that’s always well after you are safely on the ground.
@@MeppyManShe did a hell of a lot more than the military controller at Dover AFB, DE, did for another doctor in a similar situation. She would not let the pilot land at the air base, and the aircraft plowed in on a heading towards Dover.
@@rubenvillanueva8635 I don’t know that one, but honesty if I had to choose between certain death and maybe being shot down (let’s be real once the fighter pilots realised what was happening they would just help).
New pilot here studying for IR. These are painfully brutal to listen to but so so valuable. Thanks Juan!
why, did someone get hurt? If so, I did not see that.
@@dabneyoffermein595what do you mean? A pilot with 17K+ flight hours died. So yes, someone got hurt
@@dabneyoffermein595Did you also listen to this video too? If you did, you would have heard, like the rest of us who also saw, the pilot died from uncontrolled impact with the ground.
@@davidpalmer9780 the plane looked intact in that lady's back - yard, so I was asking to see it as I must have missed the part about the injuries. I don't watch every single second of every single video.
@@dabneyoffermein595 OK... thanks for your reply. This was a very insightful video that I'm sure you'd take a lot from.
As pilots, we will all make mistakes. If you're lucky enough, those mistakes won't kill you. I've had an instrument ticket since the late 1970's and still remember on one of my first trips without my instructor, being so focused on flying a perfect approach that I forgot to follow my checklist. I descended from 12,000 in the clouds to about 4,000, still in the soup and never touched the mixture. When the engine quit, I had the ILS nailed, but the silence was deafening. Luckily, when I shoved the mixture forward, the engine fired back up. In the 40 years since, I've never ignored the checklist again. I was very lucky.
And, more importantly, hopefully won't kill innocent people on the ground.
Great teaching scenario. Deafening silence, wow.
And I say this with complete respect, “And yet we still fly.”
Retired USAF controller here: declaring emergency fuel allows the acft to land at military bases.
possible PAR.
Very sad story. He was in trouble long before he admitted the fuel problem.
seemed like his time was up
So true. Great point.
He was in trouble from the moment he first took off.
He had lots of options over the course of 4.5hrs
Far too typical in such cases, IMO.
I was a colleague of Dr Salour (mispronounced in the video- it’s Sah-Loor, emphasis on second syllable) when we were both doctoral students in the laser lab at Harvard in the late ‘70s. He was already flying commercial jets then (ferrying ops, I think). Definitely at the high end of intelligence & experience. Sad to learn of this event ( from family members who live a mile East of the site)
As physicists we are trained to look at everything with critcal objective eye and leave no stone unturned. Symmetry and balance are our strong suits. Very sad. RIP Dr. Salour.
This one is sad. The pilot sounds so stressed and fearful. I appreciate Juan's even-handedness and how he makes every accident a teachable moment.
this man was a miracle. He was a physicist, held 19 patents in opto electronics, he was a CEO who founded multiple companies and he clocked more flying hours than most full-time airline pilots in their whole career. Sadly a very busy life has ended. RIP.
Hard to understand why he wouldn't be flying a turbine under those circumstances.
@@MrLeslloyd the faster the plane, the faster the pilot needs to be in his preparation and thinking. The man was 74 and age takes its toll. I can well imagine that it was a factor in this accident.
Guys... It was 'Proud Pilot' syndrome diagnosed with the 'way too late' call to ATC advising he had no fuel left in the tanks.
Obviously he didn't want the shame on his 'good name' for making the minimum or emergency fuel declaration to ATC. He knew what he was doing and took risks that, in the end, didn't pay-off like the risks he took during his professional career.
this "miracle" is also an idiot... with such accomplishments, he obviously had discipline.. hard for me to understand all the mistakes in this flight.. with all that time.. he should have been more competent.. being a professional, holding patents, successful business career.. none of which helped him when he grossly miscalculated fuel burn or whatever.. or was called upon to make a simple radio call for help when he KNEW he was in trouble... no excuses.. he did this to himself.. his family.. and potentially to the people on the ground he could have hurt/killed... he's no miracle to me..
@@cyberbob4111 don't i know,I'm 71 and recently lost the ASI mid flight,came in hot ,brakes faded,i had to do a go round real quick,guess what, i had forgotten to retract full flaps. With the turbine i was thinking of the added reliability if doing NVFR regularly,do they teach IFR to slow right up and maybe add a stage of flap when entering a Hi workload area?Very easy to get behind a fast single even during daylight.
Juan, "Don't stack the odds against you", perhaps the best advice ever. When I was young I may have looked forward to such an adventure. You get your instrument rating and suddenly you want to put it to use to justify the expense and you want to feel accomplished. But after having flown airline stuff with 2 or more of everything (engines, pilots, etc.).... The idea of making a flight like that.... It's just insane. A great option would have been to declare an emergency after French Valley and land at Miramar because he didn't seem to have much more fuel than that. But pride and ego likely prevented that. RIP.
Years ago, had a Centurion behind me calling out "Minimum Fuel" to controllers for about 60 miles in Florida, passing by multiple airports that had fuel. When we we getting ready to land at our destination, the controller asked us to expedite the landing and get out of the way of the Centurion. *He barely reached the runway and ran out of fuel and had to have a tug tow him of the runway!*
at least he made it!
@@acasualviewer5861 I think he landed about 50 feet from the start of the runway. Way too close!
Woah.
Sounds like he should have declared Minimum Fuel on contacting departure control. What was his plan from the point of starting up the engine? When things go not to plan and fuel runs too low, I would think you'd take the first available airport, refuel...even at $10/gal... and then go on to destination. But not depend on sheer luck to reach the runway at the destination! I've never run an automobile, truck, boat or airplane out of fuel, ever, in 40 years! There's no reason for it. When the airplane gauges are on E and the engine is still running, that's all luck...like walking naked through a cactus farm with a blindfold on or feeling your way through a minefield with your fingers in your ears.
@@Andrew-13579 He passed by some airports with very cheap fuel. Made no sense to me.
Sad tale but respectfully and carefully explained by Juan. Thank you. I have stopped flying now after 40 years of being IFR rated but this tale resonated with me and the phrase "'There but for the grace of God go I" rings loud in my head. Your reports on this channel undoubtedly will save lives. My thoughts are with the pilot's family and friends. RIP.
I don't know how you do it mr. Juan, day in and day out, but I know that there are a lot of flying folks out there listening to aviators like yourself, and I believe that it HAS to be doing some good. Retired civil surveyor, 2nd yr.patron (2 better than 1), non-aviator, thankful for your integrity and contribution to us all. RIP and condolences to friends and family.
What exactly is so difficult about what he's doing?
@@bruisersdilemma354spending an hour an incident or more making these videos, but i bet he loves it
@@bruisersdilemma354I don’t think he means it’s difficult in a literal sense. It’s the frustration Juan must feel covering so many incidents that could have been avoided with better training or awareness? I struggle to recall the last report he did that was mechanical and/or out of the pilots’ control.
@@bruisersdilemma354you are obviously not a pilot. If you are please keep this in mind because it might just save your life. There are old pilots and there are cocky pilots, but there are no cocky old pilots.
@@anthonyburlison2044what's your attitude for? They just asked why someone thought the task was particularly difficult.
It's a fair question.
To me he sounds frustrated, i felt frustrated listening to this one but mostly he's reading reports and adding actual intelligent advice and commentary. On the face of it it doesn't look like much more than a news reader would do.
Dang, that was intense ... and I'm not anywhere close to an airplane right now. Great followup Juan, RIP to the pilot ... a very valuable lesson for all of us.
That was very intense. I feel so sorry for the pilot. Maybe, he was so over-tasked that he, simply, forgot to monitor fuel?
@@retro440
That flight from Concord to San Diego is really stretching the endurance of a 210. Particularly for night time IFR!
That doctor had a LOT of flight time! (17,000+ hrs!) I'll bet that he made that flight hundreds of times in that airplane. This time, 30 minutes of reserve fuel just wasn't enough. 😟
This is how aviation is. She is like a cruel mistress who will keep letting you get away with something, right up until the day that she won't.
Great job Juan as usual. This reminded me of the crash of Avianca 052, back in 1990, of which I was an ear witness to. I had heard the final transmissions of the crew as they were making their 2nd attempt at landing at JFK in extremely bad weather conditions that night. JFK had been reporting heavy rain, Gusty winds, windshear and fog. What I didn't know was that a very experienced crew, flying a perfectly good airplane, would be involved in one of the worst crashes in US aviation history, and it was unfolding right in front of me. As the crew was attempting to land, the CO pilot reported to NY approach that they were running out of fuel, and requested PRIORITY clearance. Then shortly after that, he said they just lost 2 engines. What haunts me to this day, is that 10 minutes after he said that, he was dead.
The crew never declared minimum fuel, or fuel emergency, instead they used the word PRIORITY, which the controllers understandably determined that the situation was not critical. The circumstances were eeriely identical, as Avianca 052 crashed on its 2nd missed approach to JFK,, due to all 4 engines flaming out. The airplane actually almost crashed on its 1st missed approach, as it was only 100 feet above the approach lights.
These 2 accidents should teach every pilot to use the proper phraseology in terms of declaring minimum fuel, or fuel emergency, so ATC fully understands the gravity of the situation you're in.
It is amazing to me how a Captain of a Boeing 707, and a private pilot flying a Cessna, can be so negligent, and crash perfectly good airplanes, simply because they ran out of fuel.
TWA727 - Yeah Buddy! They were vectored all over NYC area using LaGuardia & JFK controllers, even though had said needed priority treatment due to low fuel. Controllers couldn't even finger out, when their gas gone, & engines dropping off-line, they just might be low on fuel!! They put that 707 down on only unlit spot in Manhattan saving many. Sorta like the mid '90s Liner, where on approach Capt noticed by Hwy Trk downdraft ahead, as windshear had just racked his pickup! Full gas/flaps, gear up, nose slight down, & immediate elevator to hell in flat plummet! Pilot not quitter, rode 'er down pulling out at last instant flying thru woods until rose above treeline. Controls all mooshie, so gently cruised I-96 passing MDOT Pickup, went past & came back at freeway level gently waggling wings for "Thanks"! No COMM w/ Cabin, no radio to Tower, so gave self clearances to Approach, Land, Taxi, & Park in his spot. Entire Cabin Crew severely injured, 1st Ofcr screaming as knew he was dead, but changed to whimpering when Capt said, "And we're down"! Plane royally effed, w/wingtips dragging on tarmac, 5-breaks in main wingspar, plates & cables stretched out of shape, etc, plus coach wrecked. Capt had saved 154/154, so no biggie. Shutting down aircraft on own, Company/Medical evacuated all else, & when done, Capt scooted down small staircase for late luggage. He was arrested by GRPD for Joyriding Aircraft while pulling Oak limbs from Belly, cuffed & hauled into Terminal past his de-planed Passengers & ending up on way to Tower for interrogation! Airline Ofcl suspended Capt, FAA jerked all his Certs, his courtesy ride on jump seats canceled, & GRPD still had Drivers License, so X-Capt, a Pedestrian had to find ride home however! As I remember it, when Sully washed his Liner in The Hudson, they made a quarter billion dollar movie about it! Hell...there was a huge river that ran right thru City where X-Capt had his downdraft run-in, so maybe if X-Capt had taken the time to wash it in The Grand, Holly-Wood coulda made a movie about that? Or not, I guess! Rumor has it, Ex-Capt & MDOT Driver met purely by chance couple years later at TPA Pilots Lounge Restaurant. Ex-Capt just made Capt again for same Airline, & was downloading windshear dangers to SWA Pilots, but forgot emergency actions. Dumazz MDOT Driver darest to add them, so got attack of the enraged Pilot blurting out, "And just how in the hell would you know that?" Driver responded, "I'm the Ahole Hwy Trk Driver in your story you just mentioned...I have ID!" Attack ceased immediate, Capt offered seat at their table, Driver refused, Capt re-grabbed & set Driver at their table with phrase, "You look like a T-Bone Man to me....we'll donate burger to someone that needs it!" Capt requested extra dinner napkin from Favorite Waitress, & "New Friend" the Driver copied all that was said! Capt had something to take to NTSB for Show & Tell!! Investigation re-opened, Napkin crossed all "T"s & dotted all "I"s, whereas original investigation had missed 'em all! Director gigged his original Investigators, as circumstance so absurd they shouted "Pilot Error", & forced no Truck there for MDOT, and no windshear for NWS, so on to next Investigation! For NWS, International Airport at sight of Incident got first Doppler Weather Set available! Then, Original Investigation, plus re-opened Investigation Classified, due to embarrassment, plus danger from Driver's Project Engineer, so NTSB chose darkness for Investigations, and life for MDOT Driver hiding many unapproved "Driving lack of Techniques, and everyone lived!!
Landed that night at 19:00. It was some of the worst weather in the San Diego area in a while. Part 121 was all messed up that night (I was an hour over scheduled and with holding almost inverted back to PHX). He had no business flying in this crap in a 210. It was bad enough in a 737!
@@erwinschmidt7265Do you have any sources for that story?
@@AureliusR - Sorry Buddy, but Air Disaster video covered Avianca crash well, & only have view from MDOT Pickup for Mich Incident. Me & overloaded pickup only traffic on I-96 due to approachin' weather front. Going EB @55, front picked up trk, & slammed it back down again going 85!! I glanced up on other side of front, and here was this big beautiful liner stationary just sittin' in the Sun!! Dang, they gonna die...unless...I slid up thru the window sittin' on sill, gassin' w/right foot, pointing at Capt w/left hand while glarin' at 'em, w/beacons & lights on, swerving up on 2 wheels the 40' on all lanes! No time for thinkin', just act! On 3rd trip across expressway, Capt gassed it, went full flaps, picked up gear, & pointed nose down!! Good Boy!!! As far as steak gifted by Capt, I had been marooned at TPA by tripled fares regarding Thanksgiving, and hadn't eaten in 3 days, so T-Bone tasted fantastic! I was on Mission From God rescuing Dad heart attacked in Indiana. Missus drove me there, & I drove Folks to winter home in Punta Gorda. After met Capt again at Pilot's Lounge at TPA, I could no enter Concourse as Sky Cops wanted to test me for 4th time w/mechanical sniffer dog. Line no move, Supv ran up asking what was problem? Capt calmly said, "Mr. Schmidt here, saved passengers, crew, Airliner, & my life, now Dickless Tracy here wants to check him for 4th time with your mechanical dog, so I have time to wait. Other 3 Pilots agreed nodding blocking entire entrance, so Supv said, "All 5 of you are free to go", & believe it or not, Tracy objected, so Supv called for relief man & took Tracy back to his Office for attitude adjustment!! End of problem. These were pre-TSA days! I'm pretty sure Airline was one of them Delta sucked up at turn of Century. Got ticket home when SWA phoned for Love & got fare of all I had minus $7 for Pilot's Burger Spl, tax & tip. Still had money when landed at DTW, so Wife & Son to MacDonalds! Wife had to round up her soda bottles for deposit money to get gas for car. I had been laid off for winter, & we was broke. As for Dad, he recovered, living another 11 years. Bestus reason I think Capt survived, is fact he spooled up motors at Flight Idle Throttle to Holy Sht Throttle in those few seconds he had. Other than that, I'm pretty sure they would have been 154 grease spots on I-96 assuming I lived! Think Sully on steroids....Capt certainly has my vote!! Do you think maybe the above kinda stuff was what made NTSB Investigators think he was crazy when told them that was what happened?? I guess it does sound a little crazy with virtually nobody givin' a dang nowadays. I guess me and the Capt were just "Old School" from back in the day when people really did care!!! BS on the NTSB claim no way in hell could we have communicated, as we're communicatin' fools! Sorry I couldn't be of more help to ya, but Mid '90s a long time ago.......
@@AureliusRI think that’s chat gpt
This was a tear jerker….thanks JB for the clarity and emphasis on simple radio terminology that can effect a different and better outcome
Same here. I’ve watched god awful stuff on the net with minimal emotional reaction, but this one has me chocked.
121 Captain, last night we shot an ILS down to mins in heavy rain on a short runway with the tower closed in the NYC area. Even with two of us up there with 6500lbs of fuel as a buffer and lots of options, it was a demanding, stressful workload. I can’t fathom why he would venture into the socal basin without lots of fuel to buy options. We’ll never know. Fuel buys time, time buys options!
As a pilot I will say that was hard to watch yet I do hope other pilots watch it. The lesson is old but still sobering and highly valuable. Thank you for the excellent analysis.
I wonder how his 1979 P210 was equipped. I own and fly a 1979 P210 and I have made sure that it is fully up to date with a glass panel, latest autopilot, shoulder harness, extra fuel tank (29 gal), updated fuel sending units, etc. As a successful businessman, this pilot should have had his aircraft updated with the best instrumentation and known how to use it. BTW I don't fly at night, ever.
He only needed to stop by any airport in central California on his way back from concord to refill the airplane so he could have enough fuel to circle around San Diego for another two hours.
>BTW I don't fly at night, ever.
That should be the norm for single engine piston airplanes. If it's not an emergency, it can wait.
As a lapsed pilot returning to currency after several intervening careers, I wouldn’t be surprised if the G1000 and his understanding of it were partially at fault. Takes this old brain more time to remember and scroll through menus and submenus, which knob to twist, etc. That it really ought to. Hopefully familiarity with the system will make it easier, but as a renter, not all hulls have it.
This 1979 P210 would not have a G1000 not certified for it. @@robyoung5455
The P210 does not have the G1000 avionics. It would be interesting to know what his panel looked like as he was obviously having trouble managing it by the inability to properly execute two relatively straight forward instrument approaches. My thinking is he may have had a slight carbon monoxide leak that affected his abilities given the missed radio calls, erratic flying and terrible decision making he was doing. @robyoung5455
I am just overcome with sorrow listening to this. With Juan's usual aplomb he describes what appears to me to be simple remedies which would have ended this in a favorable manner. Once again, the 7 Ps in action. Thanks Juan, for keeping us informed.
More like NOT using the “5Ps”
@B1900pilot I count 7: Proper Planning and Procedure Precludes Piss Poor Performance
I never went for my instrument because of this exact kind of scenario. You instrument guys are a tough bunch and I have the upmost respect for you all . Please be safe. Thanks Juan for all you do in educating us.
IFR is VERY rewarding, albeit tough. It will make you a better pilot. Guaranteed. Doesn't mean you have to use it. It's just nice to know it's there if you get into unexpected IMC.
But even VFR pilots need to stay proficient and current, practice good ADM, do proper cross country flight planning, including weather briefings. “Communicate” is third in the list, but it is on the list. “By the way, we only have a few minutes of fuel left” is simply NOT communication, it’s an apologetic acknowledgement of one’s obvious oversights or poor decisions, and maybe a sad acceptance of being a “dead man talking.” Septuagenarian flying a long single-pilot flight at night in complicated, congested mountainous areas in LIFR with insufficient planning and fuel+reserve. At that point, the Swiss cheese is more holes than cheese. That’s not to say anything bad about the great man and otherwise good pilot, he did his best under the circumstances with the hand he dealt himself from a deck of limited cards. But this could have been avoided in many ways. Make good decisions. Fly later. Fly in better conditions. Fly with another pilot. Never rush planning. Plan on several contingencies. Fly with a full tank, unless absolutely necessary to use less. Fly commercial, if need be.
Reminds me so much of a flight I did as a junior commercial pilot. It was a short flight I'd done many times before - so I was overconfident and rushed the prep to try to beat weather, not adding fuel when I should have built in a bigger buffer. I didn't beat it and ended up facing 50kt headwinds (in a C172) and ended in a very similar position with low fuel. I got lucky with a convenient break in the cloud over the top, but it could have easily have ended like this.
Well done Juan! Took off one day out of LGA going to ATL. Got vectored way past Newburg (KSWF) before ATC turned us back to our filed route for ATL. I declared MIN Fuel to NY Center 700 miles from ATL. I told ATC we could not accept any undue delays to ATL. We stayed on our filed route and even got a few short cuts. Don't be afraid to say what you need to say to ATC. Be the PIC
Excellent review of Min and Fuel emergency. I’m a retired Washington ARTCC controller and when a controller receives a “minimum fuel”, most will treat it like an emergency, I made them priority. It told me that there is concern so I, and all that I know in ATC will give a Min Fuel priority. Emergency handling is easy, EVERYONE goes all out and most importantly it’s not a problem for ATC. Sure, you may get a call from FSIDO asking to explain what happened but enforcement is not FSIDO’s priority. I’ve declared emergencies and talked to FSIDO with no issues. If in doubt, just tell ATC.
I feel for this guy. Stuck up in IFR, high workload, maybe some fatigue. Horrible way to go.
True, but its vanity and passivity that killed this guy, ultimately. RIP.
Knowing the outcome I was still pulling for him to make it the entire time.
@@a.n.7863 Same here - So many opportunities for this to not have happened.
i don't feel one bit bad for him.. his family, yes.. the people on the ground he could have easily killed.. yes.. this guy committed suicide and took a great airframe with him.. all of his life accomplishments are for nothing.. he flew past long runways with plenty of 100LL for hours.. he screwed the pooch all on his own.. it's horrible alright.. but this guy should never have taken off if he wasn't up to the job.. that includes fuel management, and declaring an emergency even if he caused it himself. which he did..
"Night, IFR, Terrain, or icing, Pick One", Dan Gryder.
This has to be the best video you posted yet. Lots to think about. Kudos to the pilot of 8CZ
also, having to wait to commence his approach, and being asked to see about N1400
Great commentary and suggestions Juan. I question how a doctor could have 17,000 hours. I did 40 year airlines and had 28,000 hours. So sorry for his demise. He missed several opportunities to declare emergency fuel. Big problem, was flying in that weather. He had get-home/itis🥴
Startling... and there is no information provided by Google other than what is on his own website CV.
A persons mind set needs a reset button. So very sad.
Yeah I call BS on his 17k hours and ratings. Ain’t no way.
He must have flown as co-pilot for George Santos. The good “Doctor” applied for his “Student Pilot” license and 3rd Class medical in 7/2008!
How is it possible to gain 17,700 hours in 15 years? 😮
Someone else on here said he was a commercial pilot before becoming a doctor
He was within spitting distance of MCAS Miramar with its miles long airstrip and top notch traffic controllers.
Declare the emergency and have pros walk you down safely.
By the time he was directed towards the glider port he was effectively dead. Neither the pilot or controller gave up the fight but being given an advisory that a small unlit field is in two miles proximity when, hard IMC, you just went missed at better facilities was grossly impractical. Both the controller and pilot knew it but God bless them they kept trying.
I seriously doubt the doctor had 17,000 hours. My bet it was 1,700, miss-reported as 17k. 1,700 is not insignificant time and hopefully more will come out in the investigation. Actual equipment, recency of experience, training.
With a long flight and weather like that, seems like it would have prudent to stop in Orange County, fuel up and take a break, and start again in the morning. I mean, there's several hotels right across the street. Hampton, Hilton, Hyatt Regency, Hyatt House, Renaissance, Atrium, Marriot, Embassy Suites, Extended Stay America, Sonesta, Ayers Hotel, and sht tons of restaurants.
after 17,000 hrs you'd think he'd been past the "won't ask for help" ego stage......new pilots take note and learn from this
Seems maybe fatigue had something to do with it. Long-ish flight alone, at night.
I would like to chime in here to say that KRIV (March) has an ILS and is very near F70 (French Valley). It is open to the public and there is an FBO there to get fuel from in the AM. I don't think that most people think of this as an option.
At one point during the missed approach at F70, he was headed directly for KRIV and its 13K foot, ILS runway. I have to believe that declaring “minimum fuel” would have made that a great option. ATC had no idea. Though looking at his approaches at F70 and Montgomery, I’m not sure he was landing anywhere that evening.
Kriv ksna kont kcno. All right there with low minima approaches
F70 isnt best for a non waas rnav which sounds like what he couldn’t do any rnav approaches so any ils , which he did ask for, or just do a surveillance approach
Very sad this happened. I’ve had to declare emergency and oh man I’ll tell you when you do that ATC is amazing at the help they give
KSNA seven miles closer, straight line, from F70 and FltAware presentation on your presentation showed SNA VMC. A controller who was aware of low fuel state may have used KNKX as a great option. Two words to ATC and this pilot would be alive today.
KNSA, John Wayne has commercial traffic. KNKX, Miramar was right there, but it is a military installation so emergency only, but he should have gone there and dealt with the problem on the ground and not die. 12000ft of runway at Miramar.
Oh boy, these types of accidents are so sad and frustrating. This guy obviously had tons of experience, but pushed his luck too far without ample fuel into coffin corner conditions (single pilot, IFR, night, mountains, weather and possibly an avionics issue). I sure hope everyone learns from this. Way too many pilots are crashing because they won’t declare an emergency and/or get too comfortable with higher risk flying. Juan, thank you for your excellent commentary and debrief on these accidents. You are most definitely savings lives
Juan I just wanted to say thank you so much for what you do. I always learn a lot from you, and I really appreciate that you don’t dumb down the information you convey. I love a nice technical explanation. Rest in peace to the doctor and much love to all! I live in Sacramento. If you ever host a meet up of some kind, it would be an honor to talk with you one day!
Every accident has its unique story but, my gosh, this was so avoidable. First, the pilot is a PHD physicist, schooled in the best colleges in this country, who apparently helped develop our internet infrastructure, and had gobs and gobs of flight hours. Still, with all that experience and education he couldn’t confess his fuel situation until it was much too late.
I truly don’t know what to make of this situation. He KNEW, both from his experience and education, what was unfolding but he couldn’t confess the true state of his situation.
As Shakespeare said, Pride goeth before the fall and that was certainly the case here. Don’t let that be your demise.
Baffling for sure. And just plain sad. Such a terrible loss.
All of the information about his flying comes from his website. There is no further relevant information provided by Google.
It has less to do with "confessing" than WHY, out of complete character, he started flying like a Keystone Kop?
The aviation community is full of high achievers. But everyone makes mistakes now and then. Perhaps he was in a hurry to get to SD, didn’t top off the tanks and chose to fly in weather that he (and/or his plane) wasn’t quite fit for. Would his declaring a fuel emergency have triggered a broader inquiry as to his IFR currency, last annual, etc? It doesn’t take 4.5 hrs to fly from Concord to San Diego…closer to 2.5 hrs.
Also as Richard Feynman said "Nature must take precedence over public relations, for nature, cannot be fooled"
Thank you for the breakdown, worked in aviation as a lineman in NorCal refueling CDF Air Attack and the USFS “Lunch Box” as the smoke jumpers would call it. I’m not a pilot but have met many of the old school guys, it’s a different breed. You remind me of them.
Very sad. In those few minutes, you could tell he was kind and very grateful to ATC for the help he was receiving. Would have received much more if he only said emergency fuel that he was. Wish we knew more about those unstable approaches he flew.
At some point its best to admit you're in trouble and ask for help and get down immediately. He waited to long, and tried to solve it all himself. Ended up in the trees. RIP.
So sad because it could have been easily avoided. I wonder if he didn’t even notice his fuel levels with all the changes to his flight plan? Just heartbreaking to see this happen 😢
Thank you Juan. Your steadfast 26:05 professionalism, I’m sure, saves lives.
This is the 3rd fatal to have any connection to French Valley in the last half year. Glad the airfield is due to get a tower this decade, though it may not have helped in this case. EAA is hosting ATCers from March to discuss some local airspace concerns this weekend, which I hope adds to the local safety culture.
This sure feels like a problem with the avionics, plus the fuel starvation ... but it might be really difficult to be sure. Was it misprogrammed, was it an actual failure?
Not sure I'd blame the lack of tower for any of the incidents at F70. The tower wouldn't have been open when the jet flew the approach into the ground and the tower can't fix a botched go around.
@@ericwgreenAgree completely.
I don't remember any of them being ATC related. But it sure is busy there, I feel like I have a tough time making calls 30 miles away.
Gives me chills listening to his last few moments on earth. How many times do we have to see pilots flying over fuel stops because of get-thereitis. Bravo to the controller, very professional and trying to help to the end.
Boy, this was a sad one. For the life of me I don't understand why a guy with this much experience got himself into this situation. It just doesn't make sense. Single pilot night IMC is a really high workload situation with plenty of fuel, let alone approaching fuel exhaustion. This is a lesson for all of us, if you ever find yourself in this guy's shoes, declare an emergency!!!!!
What is just crazy, once he does the right turn to the north after he over flew French Valley, he's got March AFB about 5-9 minutes, with one heck of a long runway. Also, the base is now shared by Amazon cargo aircraft. March ILS should be available and it's a perfect spot to fly into under these conditions. Then having Miramar Marine airbase with its long runway. Very, very sad situation. This video was extremely frustrating to sit through.
"As a pilot, Salour had logged more than 17,700 hours of flight time had an airline-transport license, with certifications in various corporate/business jets and large transport aircraft, including DC-3, DC-9, DC-10, B-727, B-737 and B-747 airliners. He also held flight-engineer, flight-instructor and instrument-flight-instructor certifications, according to his web page."
Juan thank you for all you do for aviation. Appreciate the summary videos and all the different interests you post.
The controller tried her best to get him down safely. Just sad to listen to! Thanks for your efforts JB, I really appreciate what you do!
Hi Juan, I made an analysis of the approaches in Google Earth using the flight tracks and overlaid the approach charts. This shows his approaches weren’t as bad, laterally, as it seemed at a first glance. The dashed blue lines you’re looking on FA at are not representative of the final approach course or the waypoints of the approach. Based on my analysis, he only overshot final at TIQMU by 0.1nm, which is not egregious and in TERM mode, you generally have 1nm from centerline to full deflection on the CDI.
However, it does seem he was hand flying the whole approach (as well as the later ILS), and where he seemed to lose it was as he got to DISEY and was 0.2nm right of course. From 2nm prior to the FAF (DANNN) to the MAWP it would have been in approach sensitivity, with only 0.3nm to full deflection (note, the course width doesn’t angularly converge like a localizer, just steps in when going into approach mode). So he would have been close to full-scale here.
The missed at F70 itself, as you said, was not well-flown at all and nearly got him into a mountain before ATC stepped in. That’s represented by the almost due (true) southward track, when ATC intervenes and sends him back to the north for a while.
With the ILS at MYF, using the same methodology, it looked pretty good for hand-flying, but almost looks like he started to go well left of course as he overflew I-8, as if he mistook it for MYF, which would make a little sense when combined with the possible runway lights issue.
But the entire thing hinged upon the preflight planning and based on what FA shows, his ETE was 2:10. With diversion around heavy weather along the western side of the valley, then coming back to the west side and going all the way to LHS (not on the original plan and well to the west) instead of his filed course direct PMD, then extending out to APV before given a vector direct TIQMU. He actually overflew PMD about the time his original ETE elapsed. Needless to say, the geometry alone added additional time and distance to the original plan, even before the first approach. Strike one.
Then stack on top of that only a 140-150 ground speed, which in no way connects with the planned ETE and cruise TAS of 190kts, so he took a penalty in either a stronger than planned headwind, or a lower than planned cruise TAS. Strike two.
Strike three was the missed at F70, followed by a vector to the north, then vectors all the way to MYF, where the weather was even worse. Had he stayed on the north vector and asked for a divert to RAL, SBD, or ONT, the weather was improving and he would have been quickly on an approach. Instead, he spent another 45 mins in the air.
With almost twice the time in the air as planned, he had one shot at MYF and did not communicate that. I’m curious to know whether he took off with full fuel or at tabs. If it’s the latter, that 4 hours of endurance seems to be about what I’d expect.
I agree. The dashed blue line does not line up with the final approach course at F70. The plane's flight path looks as if it turned at TIQMU and was pretty well aligned with the final approach course.
I could hear your frustration throughout this presentation. I can't really give much information to such a tragedy. But looking at his first route and weather, he was in the clear, relatively. Everything was fine until he tried ILS on both approaches and then just seemed to loose his track! Unless obviously something else was wrong with the instruments.
But why on earth he didn't tell them his fuel was low, escapes me! There is absolutely nothing wrong with using the service that's provided, for exactly situations like this!
Very sad that such an experienced flyer should be lost in such a stupid situation 😢.
Prayers to his family and friends and all the services that attended the crash site.
I was given the opportunity to tour ATC facility. Great people on very old equipment. But what struck me is how nice everyone was and how willing they were to explain they were there for US!
I’m only a student pilot but so calming to know when I make my mistakes I wasn’t pissing anyone off.
Good for you and glad you took the opportunity. FAR too many people on these forums opine incorrectly about controllers' performance without truly understanding the big picture and knowing what they are seeing and managing in the moment. There's a reason the washout rate for controllers is orders of magnitude higher than that for pilots.
It's hard to listen to the radios when you know that these are his last minutes in his life. As an ex army helicopter pilot (IFR rated), my buddies and me were always drilled to be ONE STEP AHEAD of the aircraft. And that, Juan, was your key sentence! He was behind...
I honestly will never understand why it's still possible to fly single pilot IFR, especially at night.
Everybody who did or does IFR in weather knows how high the workload can get.
Excellent analysis, Juan. Thank you for all that you do with these reports!
Thank you for sharing Juan. To the pilot Rest In Peace.
A lot of people are questioning Mike Salour’s stated flight experience and ratings. I can assure you it was real. He was a United Airlines FO with 8000 hours when I first met him in 1980. He was flying professionally while simultaneously building his companies. His B-727, 737, and 747 type ratings are easily verifiable on the faa airmen registry (at least they will be until they remove him as being deceased). Please don’t slander this brilliant and very gracious man. RIP Mike.
@user, please PM me.
I am a retired UA pilot.
Also check the FAA Pilot Registry for “Mehdi Salour.”
When he applied for a Student Pilot and 3rd. Class medical in 7/2008! 😳
Single pilot IFR in SoCal is tough stuff; even for profession pilots who have thousands of hours flying jets. I currently fly a couple different Citation jets in hard IMC and ice, all day long including some single pilot ops as well in a C510, but without a glass cockpit and a rock-solid autopilot, I wont go. (The A/P is required by the FAA to be operational for the C510 single-pilot, for a huge reason.). This poor guy, hand flying…. I really feel for him. Slower flight speed in a piston single doesn’t make it that much easier; the mental workload of hand flying IFR in hard IMC in SoCal airspace is just off the scale. This video should be watched by every IFR rating candidate, it shows so well how the workload can just crush a pilot.
@@paulkaiser4603same boat. Had to ground a PA28 in the mountains for weather. Same place and weather in a 525 glassed out would have been a non issue.
Jet and piston are two separate beast all together. As well as the different Avionics suites.
I have never flown a P210 but I have a lot of time in a T210. With marginal weather he was setting up for failure from get go. It would appear that he didn’t have the aux tanks. It’s heartbreaking to hear this and watch the flight paths on the approaches. Great analysis as per usual, another crash that on the surface looks totally avoidable just by better decision making. We as pilots need to stop being afraid to use the tools available to us. RIP
It is haunting to hear the dejection in the pilot’s voice upon running out of fuel. Yet he did fight to remain calm and somehow try to survive. He did fight. May he rest in peace. May his loss serve as instruction to others and save lives.
It should never have gotten anywhere near to that point.
@@chuckschillingvideostrue, unfortunately he was task-saturated and probably exhausted
So sad. Task saturated, tired, in the dark and weather. Serious lack of planning, and gettheritis. I would rather face the wrath of the FAA for not landing with my reserve fuel, than die for nothing.
That was a wild weather night in San Diego. We went from scattered rain in the early evening to a two hour period just after sunset of intense winds, so much so that inbound commercial aircraft to Lindbergh Field (SAN) were circling waiting for things to calm down. FlightRadar24 was showing some crazy patterns out there. To be honest it was not a night for a small aircraft to be flying.
Having watched the safety speech and interview you did with Mike Patey, I can really see the value of Mikes 3 strikes system. Flying alone, strike 1, flying at night, strike 2, flying in bad weather, strike 3, so don't fly. It also seemed like he was very overloaded near the end, and could not seem to make clear and rational decisions, and I would hazard a guess this may have been due to fatigue, so a possible strike 4.
This reminds me of Avianca 052. The crew refused to declare a minimum fuel emergency and accepted several long vectors. They crashed on short final.
The Air Safety Institute put out an accident case study several years ago called Final Approach, and it reads almost verbatim to this accident including both pilots being doctors. So sad.
PhD in this case, not MD.
Damn. That was painful to listen to. Very sad. Godspeed and peace to his family.
No one’s talking about the ATC lady, se sounded so worried and stress once she learned that he had no fuel 😢
For us non-pilots, the lesson here is that there is a lot more to flying than getting into a plane and steering!
Yea, after working 6 years in small aircraft maintenance, I’m never blindly hopping in any small aircraft and just going for a flight. Both due to general aircraft condition and certain pilots.
This is a great video and some awesome guidance (and reminders). This accident has some interesting collateral factors too. The pilot didn't sound on the radio like he had 17,000 hours (or more precisely he didn't seem in command of the actual flying he was doing here, any jet time notwithstanding). He didn't seem prepared for any of the approaches. He seemed to try to fly a GPS RNAV while apparently not having the capability to do so. The aircraft does not seem to have flown very often at all, and seemingly never IFR. And of course he didn't manage his fuel state. He also lacked situational awareness. He crashed a runway length from huge long runways. The root cause of this seems on these facts to be a very poor series of aeronautical decision making choices.
Impressive amount of flight time on paper, just a reminder to us that our instrument skills are very perishable and that’s something you must do a lot in order to do correctly
Wonder what his currency was for night, IFR? All that experience can lead you to believe the skills you have will be enough to overcome a lack of currency or recent experience in those conditions. Doubly so for single pilot IFR…sad ending for a distinguished life.
This man let a very interesting life. It's amazing to me that he was a physicist as well as being certified to flies an airplane transport pilot on a whole ton of types, 737, 747, DCX. He received the airline transport pilot certificate in 2009 which means he was 60 when he got it. Never seen anything like that before. Especially considering he's also a published physicist m
Actually he had his ATP long before that. I first met him in 1980, at which time he was a FO for United Airlines with 8000 hours. The issue dates on the airmen registry are simply the last time the certificate was updated/ reissued. For example a friend had his wallet stolen recently and was sent a replacement certificate. The airmen registry shows an issue date last month, though he has been flying for 50 years.
@@user-tn9rs1ir2o thank you!
@@user-tn9rs1ir2o I knew him 1976-80, as a fellow physicist trainee at Harvard. Was flying jet transport even then. Sad news.
Thank you Juan. Keep working, good luck to you.
I can't imagine how stressful this situation was for him. Truly heartbreaking.
My partner in our A-36 had a very similar problem. He returned to home at night into deteriorating weather. He was vectored to the localizer, but he didn’t/couldn’t fly the ILS as he wasn’t instrument rated. Went missed approach, got spatial disorientation in the weather and crashed.
No comment I’ve heard this scenario to many times ! I wish there was a way to intervene before these accidents happen ! Thanx Juan I’m sure your work will save some lives !
I live in Jackson Hole Wyoming. There is a regional medical center here which attracts quite a few specialists, orthopedic, cardiology, etc. A lot of these doctors run satellite clinics in other parts of the State.
Over the decades I've known of several doctors who've flown themselves around the region. This part of the world is one mountain range after another, and the winters are long.
Quite a few accidents involving doctors. Don't remember that any of them ran out of gas. Mostly it was weather and icing.
Well presented as usual Juan. So sad, but it's unfortunately not uncommon for pilots, be they flying big or small aircraft to not declare their problem. While one of the commenters referenced Avianca 052, there was also the United DC-8 ran out of fuel into PDX. I was on the arrival into PDX that night not far behind him. I once gave council to a pilot that had run out of fuel after two missed approaches. His engine quit at 300' on the third ILS approach. He plopped down in the grass 400' short of the runway. Instead of considering himself lucky, he was mad at the FAA for requiring him to go for more training and his insurance company for cancelling his insurance.
Every time there's a aviation accident/incident, there's an opportunity to learn from other's mistakes through the analysis and recognize how we can improve our flight safety. This includes the routines and tricks we can use to our advantage to improve our chances of survival in crisis situation, as Juan mentioned to declare "minimal fuel" to get ATC's attention. I still remember another episode of youtube video from APOA talking about a surgeon lost his life due to fuel starvation in an IFR flight and hesitation to declare emergency in his scenario and subsequently lost his life. Thanks for continuously educate us about what to do and what we can do to help us become old pilots. Prayers for he lost soul and his family...
As always thank you JB
Terrible this happened, and a terrible night to fly. I was a passenger on Southwest this very night from Sacramento to San Diego and we were delayed on departure 2 hours due to the weather, landed almost at the moment this happened. Had no idea this occurred until seeing this video. Condolences to the family.
First one I’ve seen in person… don’t do this to your family folks!
There was definitely a tiny bit of fuel - presumably the unusable amount - leaking, but nothing else.
Spoke with residents and one possible eyewitness who saw the plane come in - some people heard “thunder” or a “thump”. The one eyewitness did not want to speak to the media.
What I don’t understand is how it took them 5 hours to find him. I’ve heard from neighbors that the cops were called to Gilman Drive, the street right below the scene. Coupled with ADSB and radar returns it should not be that hard, still they had the coast guard looking for him offshore!
Though I don’t think it would’ve made a difference. The resident there removed some shrubbery and did some yard work so that he hit a sheer rock face, I think it would’ve been instant.
And to give you all an idea of how fast the NTSB is… they said they’d have the wreckage down before the sun set, it didn’t come down until about 3 hours past that.
News media is the same as ever though, NBC and FOX had an argument over someone stealing the other’s pictures.
Juan. As always good and accurate reporting Thank You
Aircraft inherently get you over and to inaccessible locations. Its not uncommon for airplanes to crash near airports and not be found for days, weeks, months, and even years, if ever. ELTs and nowadays cellular devices are the only realistic chance of getting located and rescued in any meaningful time frame.
Makes me wonder about the ELT then.
Insightful analysis. Thank you. Sad stuff. Condolences to the loved ones.
Thank you for posting these videos, they are very helpful for us pilots & help us know what to do & what phraseology to say in emergency situations
Very sad accident. Well presented Juan. RIP Doctor.
Absolutely heartbreaking to listen to. You have to help yourself. Be your own advocate for safety. So many missed opportunities to grab some fuel, a hotel, and head back out when it’s safe to do so. RIP, sir.
I'm studying my IFR theory right now and this was really hard to listen to, so sad, but reminded me of the need for proper planning (especially planing and knowing your alternates), decision making, being ahead of the flight, clear communication, recency, and that just because one is instrument rated, doesn't mean we can fly into any IMC, especially bad weather at night. Know and adhere to personal limits.
It is impossible to explain to a new pilot, or even to some high-time pilots, how terrifying (and dangerous) single-pilot night IFR can be. With winter now upon us, expect more of these accidents over the next few months.
He could have declared an emergency and landed at MCAS Miramar which the Controller tried to help him with after the missed approach to MYF.
Fuel management is paramount. I fill my tank on road trips every time the gauge reaches 3/4. It gives you a chance to stretch and grab a cup of joe. Never drive farther than a full tank fuel can bring you home
I cannot imagine why a pilot in distress like this would NOT communicate a fuel shortage situation, except for being completely surprised by something else, and being overwhelmed with other tasks in response to that other situation. My best guess would be that the pilot was just as surprised when the fuel ran out as the controller was to hear of out-of-fuel situation.
What a tragic situation.
Thanks Juan!
Any time I flew intentionally into bad weather at the destination, I arranged to have a second IFR pilot with me or I didn’t go. I rarely flew night IFR in weather and then only to airports I was used to.
All about making smart decisions and speaking up and swallow your pride
Jaun thank you for your teaching us about Minimum Fuel and Emergency Fuel. When in doubt get ATC’s help.
That was a painful but great video. Thanks for teaching us things that we never learned in ground school like declaring an emergency low fuel.
Thank you for your content.
So very sad. Condolences to his family and friends. It's deceptively easy to let the different factors pile up. We have to guard against it, the best we can. May he RIP.
Very sad ending. What I don’t understand is why an instrument rated pilot would file an IFR flight plan to a destination without selecting an alternative and planning a route to include fuel requirements necessary for both and required reserve fuel. I don’t know how much pre flight planning this gentleman did but based on what Juan has presented, it appears there was no planning other than direct to destination. The moment he discovered he had equipment difficulties that is the moment to alert ATC, and divert to the nearest airport that an approach and landing can be made. You don’t continue to the destination. You get the airplane on the ground as soon as practicable. And how can you takeoff, and ignore your fuel? Fuel consumption checks should be considered mandatory to include burn out time and fuel reserve times. There seems to be a prevalent nonchalant attitude about the hazards to flying. Single pilot IFR at night in mountainous terrain with weather close to or below minimums is a recipe for disaster, no matter how good you think you are.
Thank you for another outstanding teaching video. Technically, I've wondered about a couple of approach navigation incidents whether the stressed pilot was unaware of having the navigator set improperly to either GPS or LOC when it should have been set to the opposite source..
Good Lord that was sad!
Juan, I appreciate your work trying to educate us and save lives!
give him credit, he avoided all houses and didn't hurt anyone on the ground...good job doc!
The houses and ground were all totally invisible in marine layer mist/drizzle. He crashed a few hundred feet from Hotels, University Buildings and Houses on the Bluff area above Lajolla shores.
Hwy 52, Miramar, Hwy I5 & Hwy I805, Gliderport, SD Dump south of Miramar -- all very close and better spots to dump it rather than the trees by houses in La Jolla where he ended up. (My local area) I think from very early on he was seriously disoriented.
Going back to what Mike Patey was saying a few weeks back about strikes against even starting the flight. . . . This poor guy . . . May he rest in peace. :'(
Thanks for the breakdown! As somebody who trains in this airspace, it is educational and heartbreaking to listen to.