Finally Testing Out the Off-Grid RV Electrical: Or Why I Don't Like Touch Screens on RVs
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- Опубликовано: 17 окт 2024
- If you have been following along on this series, I am converting my friend's 2021 Jayco Eagle travel trailer to his dream off-grid RV for remote travel and work. In this episode, I finally test the sytems out and show the installations of all the components and almost get it finished, just to find out I cannot test everything until I get the new/replacement LCD touchscreen control for the trailer as many of the RV functions are on it.
To say this has been more work than I thought it would be is an understatement. However, I do think it is important so that viewers and interested people know that it is not just a small little job that they watched a video of it done on.
I appreciate all the feedback that is kind and try to answer when I can. I feel like I did make a point to say this is not going to be in the desert heat during the summer and was never the plan.
While Victron makes a great inverter, I really think their cable management lacks a lot of foresight and their networking is archaic and overly complicated. If I am wrong about the Cerbo and smart screen functions I apologize, but that has been what a few Victron dealers have stated to me as the truth.
Thanks for watching!
For me, Victron is the gold standard for RVs. They were the first to engineer inverters with synchronized offshore power so One can set the max current draw for sure and make up the difference from the batteries. This was a game changer for us. We mooch dock at our daughter's homes and just use the wall outlet for sure power. Set the max current draw at 10amps and run the air conditioner and the rest of our Winnebago Navion for three or four days providing the sun's out to run the solar panels.
Magnum Energy would disagree with you. Their MSH3012M Hybrid inverter had the functionality to combine shore or generator power with the inverted power way back in 2013. Victron borrowed the idea in 2018
Jared, thanks for the insight and setting the record straight. Like many tech breakthroughs, the inventor seldom gets credit. To Magnum, great engineering design many others copied.
FYI the Magnum team got the IP from Trace in the mid 90’s with the Trace SW4024 inverter series. Those inverters were later rebranded as Xantrex SW4042 during the buyout. Those inverters were (are) the gold standard in the Prevost bus conversions world since the 90’s.
That is good info, but the blue cult will still claim Victron invented it :)
@@JaredTwomeyYou're probably right; however, as for me this is great info to give credit where credit is due. Back in the early '70s I taught advanced electronics and mathematics. My favorite lecture was expounding the history of Nikolai Tesla. At that time nobody knew and few cared Tesla was and is responsible for AC power. JP Morgan and Thomas Edison were not the good people they are portrayed as... Both tried to kill AC. When JP figured he couldn't kill it and it was the wave of the future, he tried to steal it.
My thinking would have the batteries long ways against the wall with the box protecting the front,a plastic mesh grill on top ,and the cables up top along that frame rail ,so there is no obstruction in the storage area .
As the customer said he has boards to store !
It would also give more room to get in and service everything with ease .
If you are interested,there is a channel named
Project Brupeg,in Australia,a old fishing boat transformation,and the latest installation is of a power system,you might find it interesting.
I loved the follow along. The 48 volt system makes sense. My project 2/0 copper for 12 V system likes thinking ahead and drop the higher connection cost to 10 gauge. I think you will miss or your friend will miss no access gauges. The line saying it works or it doesn't is the way I felt when I maintained a line of machines. When you bill something new you got to trust the plan. I think Bluetooth works better than wifi in remote places. I still like to see more gauges, and no hidden inline fuses. I would of really liked the batteries stacked with front facing displays and easier access switches. Nice job, love your down to earth presentation.
The bluetooth dongle gives him all the same information he would have, just without an all in one dashboard monitor panel. It can be added in the future too, but I kinda doubt most people with it use it all that often.
He could put stickers on the outside of the panels marking where the fuses are inside. James, if you see this, why did you mount the batteries with the fronts pointing up rather than pointing out?
@@mileage_master seemed the easiest way for me to install everything as the back of the battery has no mounting surface and would bounce
For those AC terminals on the inverter a fine whida screwdriver that fits the slot push screw driver in and lift it gently and it retracts the spring and wire pushes right in these work great and don't loosen up if installed properly like screw terminals might be prone to with the off road boondocking sights.
Yeah, but standing on your head they are crummy, and other Victron inverters have screw down terminals. So much space is also given to ac line 2 which is a less common application
@@AZExpert One thing you must *absolutely* double-check is to be sure that when you pushed the wire in, you didn't push the insulation past the contact points. That has been known to result in failures (overheating, melting, black charred messes) in the past. So make sure the insulation is not riding into the contacts (which lifts them off the copper a bit and creates an ARC gap).
-Matt
@@junkerzn7312 Matt I know your just trying to help but that’s like telling a mechanic for 30 years to make sure lug nuts get torque’d once the wheels get put on
It’s electrical 101. I would hope you hold az to a higher standard lol
@@ryangolfz Pushing in push-ins too far is one of the most common mistakes made, professional or otherwise. It never hurts to throw out reminders. It is neither a criticism nor an embarrassment... it is part and parcel for any professional work. NOT doing that is a red flag.
Look at you! You now have a whole new career!
Love your videos James. You really know your shit. Wish you were here in GA.
Oooooooo.... been waiting for the test of the system you installed James! Thank you🎉
Enjoy
@@AZExpert Would a prebuilt 8,000 watt Sungold off-grid kit be the same as what you did there?
Good job, another jackleg install
My hat is off to you for clear explanation of your work, etc
Thank you.
@@AZExpert Your welcome.
I have a lot of this equipment. The overkill solar app is much better than the elephant one vatrer suggests. I use my phone hotspot to connect the cerbo to the internet. Once online, the VE remote config works awesome with no dongle. The remote config app takes a bit to get used to but works well. Nice installation
yes, the elephant app is very buggy, overkill just seems less impressive, does it communicate to the bluetooth better, I've had some people say the battery bluetooth range is very low
You don't need to charge each battery separately. As long as their resting voltages are close enough to each other (like within 0.5V or so I would say), you can just tie them together. Even though their individual SOCs will be vastly different. Everything will synchronize within two charge cycles. Of course the current sharing will be way off until their SOCs are synchronized but you aren't putting in enough current for that to matter.
The multiplus-II's are about the best you can get for an installation like this, primarily due to the warranty and the low full-on idle consumption (12W I believe for each of those). You won't find anything better. Idle consumption is a really big deal.
Be sure to configure the smart-shunt properly. Victron defaults to lead-acid settings and those are completely wrong for lithium.
-Matt
The SOC was 50 on one and close to 70 on the others and that was the recommendation from the battery manufacturer, so I figured I'd do it right so I can't be blamed :)
SOC on a lithium is directly related to its voltage, negating your statement. He did right here.
@@324atleD No, not for LiFePO4. For NMC and NCA the resting voltage more or less correlates with the SOC. But for LiFePO4 the charge and discharge curves are so flat and have such a large gap that you can't figure out the SOC just from the resting voltage unless the battery is almost entirely empty (below 10%) or entirely full (above 95%).
This is also, incidentally, why LiFePO4 batteries with dissimilar SOCs can often be connected together without causing excessive current flow between them. It just makes initial charging / synchronization a bit easier to do things that way. Once you've gone through two charge cycles, the actual SOCs will be identical and current sharing will operate as expected.
-Matt
Damn, wish my RV could go off-grid boon docking. Nice project James.
I loved the entire series! I'm just solar panels away from a similar build. My ONLY suggestion is in the event the batteries become unbalanced, tie them all individually into the buss bars with same length cabling. Under high draw the two end batteries may draw more quickly than the center battery. But it probably won't be an issue.
Solid system, GREAT JOB! I still am not convinced that having 52VDC converted to 120 AC plus converted to 12 VDC plus having an additional 12 Volt battery is more "efficient" than just going with large 12 Volt batteries. But that is just me and I haven't done the research so it very well could be. To each their own, can't argue with something that works and definitely does have some advantages. I am glad you shared it with us.
With large high draw systems a lot of it comes down to cable sizing and what controllers you need. I have a 12v system with 2400w of panels and it works fine, but I could have saved a lot of money on cables and solar controllers if I went 48v. A large 12v setup is also running at incredibly high amperage - I noticed the other day that I was pulling 163A from the batteries. Everything works and is sized properly, but if there was a short and something wasn't fused right, thats a lot of potential danger. I'll be building a much larger setup this fall for a 50A Class A and I'll definitely go the 48v route.
Nice install Sir. I hope you get out on the go cart soon and have some fun.
Another fantastic video. Thanks for putting it together.
Glad you enjoyed it!
That looks like a nice system. I’m just thinking how much that setup costs and how many hours I could run my Diesel Generator to break even.
You can actually parallel as many batteries as you want, with certain provisios. The parallel limits in manufacturer documentation is a fusing limitation / requirement. So as long as you fuse the batteries properly, you can parallel as many as you want. This is true for any lithium battery system.
However, there are some I.R. (interrupt rating) limitations that determine what kind of fuses you can use. Since each battery is individually fused you have a lot of leeway, but make sure the main battery fuse can handle an I.R. of at least 2 x (total of individual battery fusing)... which might mean using a T-Class fuse.
I think you are ok with just 3 server-rack batteries though, you probably don't need a T-Class. 3 x 100Ah translates to roughly 600A ... well within the I.R. that monster fuses can deal with.
-Matt
I put a fusible link on each of my batteries , then to a buss bar.
When I had LiFePO4 batteries with Bluetooth and also the Victron smart shunt I always struggled to get them anywhere near agreement. Several things to tweak but they never agreed very well. It's like having two thermostats in the same room and they'll never agree either. In any case, I wish the Vatrer had Bluetooth because the BMS is the real truthteller.
Vatrer does have bluetooth
@@AZExpert I stand corrected. I had been looking at a 300 ah 8D model at it doesn't. BUT the 8D model with self heating DOES, for only $10 more, as well as many of their other batteries. Thanks for pointing this our!
Thanks for all the details. This must have been one of those "obligation" jobs, because outside of figuring out the mounting for the panels on the roof, your voice has carried nothing but frustration and exasperation with this project. You deserve to get back to what you really love doing for your next project. And ask Stacy if he knows of a reputable awning and slide topper fabric replacement company in Atlanta if you don't mind. We're having absolutely terrible luck getting quotes so far. Some places don't even call you back!
All I can say is....YIKES!!! Power stations with companion batteries as we discussed before and some reasonable rv wiring modifications are EASIER!!! and can be portable! LOL prob not even that much more costs when considering victron stuff....I learned all this after building an off grid cabin with all the individual components and then later bought a bluetti ac200max and saw what I SHOULD have done...lol....prob not as robust but damn...thats a whole lotta work you did!! especially in an rv....at least my cabin was open and accessible...I COMMEND YOU ON THIS JOB!!! and the videos are/were great!!!
hey no spoilers for the last video! :)
Shocking! Good work!😊
Thanks! 😃
Awesome stuff!
I'd love to know the rough cost of the equipment not including labor.
The man is a Wizard!
Trying to find your video on Kwikee step repair ... ares deploy in/out while traveling. Works great when we are at camp site or in storage ... thinking magnets have gotten weak ?!?
Looks awesome! I know I felt a huge sense of accomplishment when I finished the system in my camper and it is about half of what you did there. I was looking at victron when I put mine together and ended up going with a xantrex instead for the exact reason you mentioned. It felt like The victron stuff was all kind of designed to be used as a complete integrated system installed by professionals etc. The fact that you have to buy a separate dongle just to program the thing really turned me off. There's no reason why they can't just have a USB port on the device itself.
Their networking is really underwhelming, but the systems are solid and the best I've seen and priced well too.
@@AZExpert Yeah as far as my research showed the hardware itself is second to none it was just more than I wanted to deal with for my little system. Being able to program everything right from the screen on the front of the xantrex was nice.
I may be incorrect, but I believe that you should be turning off the Solar prior to shutting down the inverter. At least that has been the way with the various inverters that I worked with. When starting the system back up you always turn the inverter on first then the Solar. Check the instructions. Good video, GREAT output
yes, never leave solar panels connected to a charge controller (PWM/MPPT) without a battery to take the charge - you'll fry the charge controller..
There are a lot of "best practices" out there. If a component is going to be damaged that easily, I would want to know now rather than when it's 500 miles away.
@@davidsaitta6351 Your statement is incorrect. When a battery is completely full is appears as an open to the MPPT controller. In essence no battery connected. By your statement the controller will fry. It will not.
The reason i stuck to a 12 volt solar set-up is because running 48 volts can cause a fatal shock if both terminals are touched simultaneously, and I don't trust myself to remember this!
Great Job James and looks really super nice !
Thanks a bunch!
You might want to double check the owner's manual of the Victron inverters, usually the temp sensors are used for flooded lead acid batteries to compensate charging voltage under various temps (higher voltage the colder the battery is). Most Lithium battery manufactures state not to use temperature compensated charging voltage, as it can exceed the voltage limits that the lithium battery can except. Better to double check then have problems later on. Over all, kudos to you, you did a nice job on the install. The only thing I would have done differently is I would have mounted the DC to DC charger where your solar charge controller is, and move the solar charge controller where your DC to DC charger is right now. This would minimize the cable run from the DC to DC charger and the 12v battery, as that is where the efficiency losses happen, and often results in poor charging, and shortening the life of the battery. Swapping the two would also minimize the wire run between the solar charge controller and the 48v battery bank, though it is less crucial on a 48v system, compared to the 12v system. Your friend is blessed to have a friend like you and all your talents! Thank you for sharing this install and all the other neat stuff you do.
yes, the inverters are programed for lithium operation and the manual is very wanting for information
I'm more worried about the squat that pick up had hopefully he has a good sway bar and other setup for safety.
Yes, he has more trailer than truck. But he has friends with trucks too. This will come up in the final video.
Victron quality is tremendous, and I really do like their phone app. The configuration is archaic though, and the whole thing feels more complicated than it needs to be. Their feature set is great, but there always seems to be a lot of stuff that would only be useful in very particular applications. It's just a lot of tradeoffs. I wish there was a high quality option that was a little more more in line with the "it just works" feeling that Apple products give you. At its core, an RV solar system is pretty damn simple (or should be at least).
I agree, I strongly think the all in one systems are the way moving forward, they just need a more capable 12vdc circuit and they are a slide in replacement for all of this setup
One suggestion. I’d get rid of that Amazon special breaker that’s marked “waterproof”. Those are notoriously known for overheating and failure. Blue Sea makes a much better breaker however they are not actually rated for above 48 volts(manufacturer hard limit). That being said, I have used Blue Sea in the past on 55volt systems without issues, but it’s always a good idea to reduce load before opening unless of course it’s an emergency.
I've been testing the breakers in other applications and found them to work, I've seen every manufacture of disconnects and breakers fail so I am okay with the simple installation of this one. But that's good information. Thanks!
@@AZExpert
Put a good load on it and feel it. If it’s not too warm then perhaps you can relax.
Curious to know how you dealt withthe RV trailers 12 volt brake and running lights, the trucks 12 volt alternator and the RV trailers 12 volt battery as the trucks electrical system is connected to the trailers via the 7 pin connector plug . If these are all connected might the alternator be overworked ?
12vdc system was untouched, the truck is still connected to the 12vdc battery and not the 48volt system
James do you think solar setup will run their A/C 24/7 ?
No
If you don’t like the victron stuff then what would you recommend for a Newell?
Victron likely, the outback is a great product but even its network is bad and its interface is awful. Victron is 90% there with a great product, the interface and networking and connections are where the improvements could be,
I run. Vatrer discount codes if you or your customers need batteries.
James, how much do you think all that equipment weighs in at ? Also, is it balanced in that location ? Just curious because any weight additions just add to the crummy fuel mileage he already has 🙃
I did try to keep it balanced but there is a washer on the driver side and a dryer on the other, it's already heavy and imbalanced
I was wondering if you know a wholesaler that sells Dometic slide out topper material in brown. I need to replace all 3 slide out toppers?
brown is a very uncommon color in vinyl, acrylic woven fabric in brown is special order
All solar panels are rated at the optimal settings like solar angle, etc.
No tilting on these panels, I did not agree too add the complications
Based on what I've seen from your work ,up to now,I believe that Bluetti system is more user friendly and installator friendly.. May be ,there are some differences but overall Bluetti seems to be clearer, more versatile ,less cabling (at least what and how much hanging cables, a man can see ) in an installation like this.. I do compare this one and your Bluetti installation at your home..I may be wrong but at the end of the day these systems are as efficient as the user can see and involve to... I think that it is not so difficult but it's somewhat cumbersome having to turn off (or turn on..) some 6 or 7 switches to connect a ,let me say, battery system to the trailer , the generator or the shore power... We are in the computer era.. someone in their planning department could have thought of that ONE BUTTON...As for Victron... Those companies ,here in Europe, have BIG departments to help the clients and the techs also.. Well done and thank you for sharing...
Yes, I try to make this point clear in the last video
I was thinking Victron was the top of the line,sounds like their kinda of a pain to set up plus the lack of willingness for customer service 🤔
Would you use them in another installation or find an alternative and did you go with them cause of the 48 volt system (51) ?
Do you think a true off grid (tiny home) would be more suited for these product?
Definitely enjoyed the videos on the build,the solar panel mounting rack is very nice and secure!
Very nice job !
For a true tiny home or cabin, I would not do this at all. Bluetti, Anker, EG4, and Ecoflow all have far superior built systems that are modular and so much easier.
I love your work project, but I like you, want it simple. Bluetti and the others seem to offer that. Plus, when something goes sideways, you have more options for trouble shooting and repair. Very interesting how you designed this system.
Great job, but alot of work. I would have just installed 2 Ecoflow Delta Pros. Plug and play.
I have a very similar conclusion in the last video!
how’s this going to work when he’s plugged into 30 amp? Will it still be split phase 240 inside?
That's why NAZ recommend the Rosie as the Victron 48 doesn't really have a great solution for 30amp. With this situation, the primary inverter charges and passes through power, while the secondary stays inverting which can be an issue if running heavy loads on both inverters as the charger may not keep up with the inverter. The owner is aware and will have to monitor the power and make choices, but basically it would still be better than normal as with a 30amp plug in, only one ac would run, whereas with this setup both can still run, especially if the sun is out.
Thanks!
@@AZExpert So it'll still be split phase, but only the primary will be passing through shore power, while the other will be inverting. That is kind of a drag. I wish they would expand their 2x120 series, since it solves this so cleverly.
In a 15g crash those batteries could jerk those little screws out of the plywood. It might be good idea to place a woven polyester strap around those expensive puppies.
Yeah the rear wall got ripped off at 2 mph so....I think the batteries will do much better than the house
I would think in a 15g force crash that the insurance company will be totalling the rig. Just make sure the batteries and components are covered by the policy.
Be careful with the Dc 2 Dc charging as a vehicle alternator is not meant to charge lifepo4 batteries- it could overheat.
I would also add a speed charger to charge from the Generator directly, bypassing the two Inverter Chargers, as they are prob lower amp chargers.
Also, NEVER unplug the batteries while the solar is connected - you'll fry the MPPTs. I bet you'll need a fan in that area with holes on each side of the RV or even a 3rd on the bottom to suck in cooler air.
Great videos.
The DC to DC is one way I'm pretty sure. I don't think the 12 volt system can charge the 48 volt system. Those victrons each have a 110 amp charger in them so I think that'll probably be sufficient :-)
The truck just charges the 12vdc battery like before and is not connected to the 48vdc system.
The Victrons here will charge at 70amps. He would be lucky if the generator can keep up with that as it stands.
So what is the total cost?
With your DC to DC scheme, are you aware can can run two of the Orions in parallel? We normally use two of the 20a versions in parallel as the const only like $10 more then a single 30a, plus adds some redundancy. I do implement your "capacitor" idea lot as well. Just make sure you adjust the Orion up to at least 13.6 or 13.8 volts, else it sort of defeats the capacitor idea (as well as charging).
BTW every time we do install the double 20a convertors we never had a slide, awning, hydraulic stabilizer that would they could not handle.
Keep up the great work!
But there is no redundancy, if the 48 batteries go dead or the system fails, the house 12dc is dead too and not every technician will understand the delete, and if it's traded in will have to be restored too. I can't say which is better, just that simple is prefered by me and also it keeps the brake away power for the trailer brakes live. Thanks!
@@AZExpert True on the batteries going dead, unlikely with three though. Worse is they all go into protection mode together, which has a slight chance of happening, at least you will have a backup then.
If we have a customer come in with an old dead lead acid we would tend to go the dual setup I mentioned and scrape the old battery. If a newer battery, we always use what you did here. With a few 5th wheels we see where they cannot open the belly hatch while connected, in that case we run the battery like you have, so they can get the stab jacks down.
Like you said, nobody can say which is better, all depends on the influencing factors.
The major advantage of having the 12V battery there as a buffer is that the DC-DC doesn't have to run the actual loads, it only has to trickle-charge the 12V. The 12V handles the loads, the motor start surges, etc. The DC-DC only needs to keep-up over time.
Thus a low-amperage (cheaper, smaller, less heat, and less equipment stress) DC-DC can be used.
Another advantage of having the 12V buffer battery in there is that accidental coupling of 48V onto the 12V bus will likely be saved by a fuse blowing instead of destroying all the 12V equipment.
(In marine applications, yet another advantage is having an "emergency" buffer if the home battery system fails that is capable of running the radio for a day or two in an emergency)
-Matt
Like Marty McFly once said "all the best stuff comes from China"... Oh wait.
Victron is good but they are pricks. Had an issue that two distributors did not know how to fix and Victron told we to pound sand. I emailed multiple people repeatedly and still told to pound sand. If they were anywhere in this country I would have driven to their office.
Stacy Coast Guard?
Why would charging the batteries individually matter?
SOC or inbalance between the batteries could be ineffecient. Soime server rack batteries have communication connections that are a bit smarter, I just tried to keep to a little bit more simple batteries and less cables.
👍 Sure hope you got paid royally for such a royal PIA. All that programming and having to use dealers would steer me away from installing Victron.
Texas
Victron has made many mistakes - you all can thank me for updates not being mandatory anymore.
I’ll stick to the power pedastal. For the upgrade of solar in cost I wouldn’t benifit. Plus I’d lose a lot of space in my class C.
As said in the first video of the series this is for a completely off grid system so different usage case. But if you stay monthly at a park the solar may pay for itself quickly if the park charges for electricity. On a 30amp circuit I can pull upwards of 30kw a day in the Cali heat. In my case a solar array like that would pay for itself in about 6 months.
🤛👍🙏😎🦅🇺🇸
One cell was not working
This owner has more money in the off grid system than the actual RV.
You are not going to get full power with outside temperature above 70 degrees
It was well over 70 this day
Based on his trailer towing skills, he will be getting a new trailer real soon.
I think we have all had a towing incident, at least I have.
great for theory and conjecture..in real life doesnt work..especially running your AC 10 12 hours a day there in 100+ temps with cloudy skies or even clear skies, its hot.... hence my generator always is dependable and reliable not switching my RV to anything other then my Trojan 6v batteries which are bulletproof..the money and benefits are not worth it..as this person will figure out down the road been there done that...except the social media commodification makes them money..vs reality
Great point! Not to be too snarky but submarines make terrible planes and cars make terrible boats, this is not a desert dweller
That's great for a couple days long trip. This is envisioned as a long term off grid, cool climate, full time use dwelling. You can't run generators full time like that. There are systems identically like this running off grid cabins all over Colorado and other cool isolated places for years that don't require constant AC. When you are totally off grid long term it isn't about money and benefits, this is the best and really only way to get it done. This level of system on a travel trailer definitely isn't going to fit the bill for too many people but it is definitely cool to see and I hope we get some updates as to real world performance.