Meshtastic Problems - And Another Off Grid Messaging System
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- Опубликовано: 8 июн 2024
- Meshtastic allows you to send off grid messages between devices without having to use the internet or a cellular connection. But Meshtastic isn't perfect, especially not when used for large mesh networks. However there exists a different, older and more mature project, that does basically the same thing as Meshtastic, but tackles some of the issues differently.
Meshtastic devices used in this video:
Lilygo T-Deck
Lilygo T-Beam
Heltec v3
APRS Radios shown in this video are:
Kenwood TH-D72
Anytone AT-D878UV Plus
Cable for connecting Quansheng UV-K5(8) and other radios to a smartphone for APRS use:
baofengtech.com/product/aprs-k1/
APRS software used on the phone is APRSDroid
0:00 Intro
0:50 I am standing in a field
1:42 What are License Free ISM bands?
4:14 What is LoRa - Long Range?
5:27 What is Meshtastic?
6:20 Flashing Mesthastic Firmware and initial setup
7:20 Use cases for Meshtastic
9:00 RAK Wisblock as a solar powered repeater
9:43 The problems with large Meshtastic networks
10:33 Lilygo T-Deck as standalone Meshtastic device
11:24 The problem of congestion and duty cycles
12:43 The problem of low power output limits
14:03 The next step: APRS
19:20 What is Amateur Radio?
21:16 Outro 
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The only thing I'd add is that because of the power and licencing when using APRS on amateur bands your communications need to be unencrypted and open. Whereas Meshtastic on the licence free frequencies can be encrypted. Also, you can open up Meshtastic to be used with more power with an amateur licence. They are all great in their own ways. Great video, thanks!
I've been a longtime computer enthusiast and I work in the ICT field, but I've always been more into software than hardware. In recent years, I've developed a passion for electronics and DIY. Thanks also to your videos, at the youthful age of forty, I've decided to get my amateur radio license. Thanks for the great work you do!
P.S. One day you should make a video talking about your radio equipment!
This is one of the best videos I’ve seen on LoRa and Meshtastic. And you threw in APRS to boot! Excellent job sir. KE8VIY.
This says it all. Great video. Demonstrates the Meshtastic gateway drug to amateur radio and helps grow the hobby without being overwhelming.
Another great video. Another comment just to promote your hard work within RUclips algorithms. Love it, keep this going!
As always, very well made video.
The subject of Meshtastic has had me intrigued for some time, and I wasn't even aware of the alternative that you showcased briefly.
Godt gået, SnØren ❤
You make an excellent case for getting an amateur radio licence as I get more interested in this stuff.
Currently I'm learning radio techniques with Meshtastic and have a high up location to put my node. Recently did a two day test running on a USB battery and could see a few other nodes. I'll need to get a solar setup for a more permanent install though.
I'm also hoping Meshtastic software can keep developing to handle congestion and routing in larger networks.
Meshtastic is great for getting your feet wet in radio experiments. The software will no doubt improve over time. No system is perfect, each has their own strength and weaknesses which is part of the fun to explore and learn about.
How simple the test for the amateur radio license is seems to vary highly between countries. Here in Germany the amount of things to learn is pretty crazy and it sadly made the hobby much less interesting for me and a couple of friends.
Without knowledge of physics and electronics, it's not straightforward. But here in Italy, if you have a relevant STEM degree (e.g., in computer science or engineering) or equivalent pre-university diplomas, you can be exempted and only take the regulatory exam. I will take it with exemption in June, and studying for an hour or half an hour a day should be feasible. You should check the government's website or the local branches of amateur radio associations, which in Germany should be the DARC, for more information. Have a great day! Tchuss!
In Denmark we have 3 levels of license. The easiest one gives you access to VHF/UHF and is really easy, you just need to know a bit about frequency allocations and the phonetic alphabet. If you want access to HF as well it takes a bit of studying, but the tests are multiple choice and you can go through the old tests and try and remember the answers, as lots of them are reused. The local ham clubs usually hold free courses too.
@@sn0renThat's almost identical to how it works here in the US with three levels.
In addition to VHF/UHF/microwave, the entry level license (Technician) also gives minor privilege on a small portion of HF for CW also. Very few Technicians use this privilege.
Det er fantastisk du har tid til at udforske og fremlægge alle de radio projekter jeg er interesseret i, men ikke selv har tiden til at undersøge :D
I love APRS. It's a lot of fun to play with and I love that it can assist if cell phones go down. Sending messages, texts and emails over radio is really cool, especially when camping. One big difference between Meshtastic and APRS though is Meshtastic allows you to limit who is a part of your mesh where APRS has to be public.
And many implementations of APRS uses GPS making you easily trackable. Great for search and rescue, not so great when you want secure comms. But it is a great system. Many areas have hobbled the APRS networks taking towers down in the US. Secure, license-free communications is likely to be important for everyone (unfortunately) no matter where you live and APRS is not secure.
A compelling argument in favour of APRS. I really would like to get an AIOC cable here in Aus.
Thank you for this educational and straightforward overview. I appreciate the time you’ve invested in helping make me smarter & more aware.
Excellent video! Thank you for creating and sharing! ❤
Very interesting...would you consider making a tutorial of APRS set up on the Quangsheng radio?
Yes i waiting for Aprs too
Snoren is a great creator I enjoy your content keep it up
That hairy dude in the field in the opening kind of looked like a -sasquatch- Sasquach. I wonder if he can talk? I guess so, if he's repeating messages. 😆
As mentioned, I think there's a place for both Meshtastic and APRS. I really like the idea of having a private and encrypted communications channel for just my area with Meshtastic, and the advantages of APRS should be obvious. Regardless, the way this crazy world is going I believe that backup forms of communication are almost a necessity, just like having some extra food and emergency equipment and supplies on-hand. I'm sure some people probably believe that's being paranoid, however.
People really should get their Ham license, if they haven't. When I got mine over 35 years ago you still had to know Morse Code. It was only 5 words-per-minute for a Novice Class License, but it was still enough to turn most people off from getting a license. It's now so easy most people could probably do it in a few days, max. Actually, learning Morse Code is probably much easier than most people would probably believe. From knowing no code, I was ready to take my Novice test in probably about a week. Although it was like (2) weeks before I could test with a local Amateur Radio club.
Also, if you're in the US, the FCC publishes all of the test(s) questions and answers, so if you just want to get a copy/book, just read through and remember the right answers, you wouldn't be the first. Although, it's much more rewarding (and beneficial) to actually learn the material. If you choose the former option, some people recommend getting a book, highlighting the correct answers, and then repeatedly read through the questions and *ONLY* the correct answers.
A great Meshtastic (and APRS) video. Thank you.
Interestingly enough, Meshtastic is preferred for ad hoc communication among hams in many scenarios. For example, at Dayton Hamfest this weekend, even with all the licensed hams, Meshtastic traffic among them is greatly exceeding APRS traffic. One factor is that most devices doing APRS are far more cumbersome for messaging whereas Meshtastic and phone provide an easy and familiar interface.
You can get battery powered bluetooth TNC modems that can be fitted to a cheap radio and then use apps like APRSDroid on the phone as well. Meshtastic is the popular new thing though.
Great video! Thank you for this fine effort!
Some of us in the area dug out our 1980's Kantronics KPC-3 packet modems and put them back on the air again. They still work great and have built in node and mailbox as well as can be used for live 1200 baud keyboard to keyboard. On 2 meters it is easy to go 100 miles or more with just a node or two in between. But yes I remember way back when packet was popular that if the band got too active and there were " hidden transmitters" stations that couldn't hear each other , the stronger stations took over and lots of packet don't get through. The positive is it is 100% error free but the negative is that a station will keep trying and trying to repeat packets cluttering up the radio spectrum. But if there was a backbone link on different frequency that helped. Aprs was amazing to me when I first tried it and worked very good. But then some people had to get their 7 hops in or send a packet ever minute and that congested up the network too. Anyway now with our old fashioned regular packet network up , there is hardly anyone using it so never any problem getting through to your ham radio friends ! I just got my Lora boards the other day and am learning how to use it - but might be a bit of letdown in this rural area where no one else uses it .
Great video, thank you !
another great video thank you!
Excellent, thank you.
Interesting discussion about Meshtastic and comparison with APRS. The big selling point of Meshtastic for me is that you can choose to use AES256 encryption and private groups.
And also that the price for the equipment to set up a few nodes is much lower than for regular Ham radio and APRS. Also as far as I know encryption and private groups on HAM Radio and APRS are as far as I know still impermissible for regular radio-amateurs; except for Law enforcement and with some expensive business licences who are legally allowed to use encryption.
That means in reality that you can not expect any privacy using Ham radio and APRS. If my information is correct this means that anyone with the right equipment can listen to every voice communication or read all your text messages.
I don't think the price of an APRS-K cable and a Quansheng radio is much higher than the price of a heltec v3. As for encryption then yes, that is correct, if you need privacy in your messages you will have to use something like Meshtastic. However to me (and a lot of others) the interesting part of these systems are to play around with radio, testing antennas and trying to connect to others, not actually to use them for any real private communication. There are much better alternatives for that. Amateur radio is like hobby fishing. It's fun to try out new lures and techniques but the point isn't to actually be depending on it as your primary food source. However the skills learned will give you insights that could be useful in an emergency situation.
@@sn0ren What alternatives are there for cheap, easy, encrypted communication that do not require a license?
Signal, telegram, etc. If you want to go off grid use something like kouchat and just set up a wifi router. No need to bring unnecessarily complicated RF into the mix and you can do more than just text messages, but also file transfers, etc. Long distance WiFi is fairly trivial to set up, very secure, has much higher bandwidth and is much harder to jam than Meshtastic. Put a "internet in a box" server on the network, with a local copy of wikipedia and other useful knowledge for SHTF scenarios.
So why not both? APRS over LoRa also gains popularity!
Thank you very much.
Just discovered your channel. This video is excellent! Well produced and informative. As an amateur radio operator, I was an avid user of APRS - both mobile and portable (when hiking) up until about 15 years ago. I’ve been thinking about getting into Meshtastic recently, but your video really drove home the fact that we amateur radio operators already have APRS! Do you think the recent interest in Meshtastic could resurrect interest in APRS in the amateur community? Here in Central Ontario Canada, it seems the APRS network is nowhere near as robust as it was 10 to 15 years ago (e.g.: fewer digipeaters).
The APRS network is quite robust where I live - but yes I think generally the interest in stuff like Fipper Zero, HackRF and Meshtastic could bring a new generation to amateur radio, including APRS. Amateur radios biggest problem is that people don't know about it and don't know what they are missing out on. I've talked to people at maker spaces that clearly would find amateur radio interesting, but also clearly would have found the knowledge really useful for their projects when working with wireless communication. For most people wireless technology is just a black box of magic, which is weird when they know plenty about all the other parts of a robot build, for instance.
The downside to APRS is the HAM license requirement. As where LoRa can be experimented with by us unlicensed plebs, lol. Now that being said, APRS, by virtue of its design, is FAR more capable. And.. I think i'm going to have to end up getting a HAM license at some point. My mother got hers back in.. 1990 I think? So I've been in and around the space for at least part of my early life.
Some of our points about Meshtastic are valid, but I think your missing the point of It. Its really designed for small groups as the max nodes supported is pretty small. Think emergency communications. Sure, you could do this with APRS, but that requires a license, has no encryption, requires more power, more batteries and a much larger footprint if your trying to stay low-profile.
I agree that Meshtastic is more of a local area mesh network, and APRS is at its best in larger metro areas where the added xmit power (5W and up) can really reach out. Then add mobile APRS to this and its pretty powerful. But again, no encryption. Every message is available for anyone to read. This is not an option for a lot of use cases.
My main issue with Meshtastic (and LoRaWAN) is the complexity of the code base as they try to cover every possible use case, leading to a massive amount of code which is harder to use and raises the bar on hardware requirements. For my FreedomText project I ended up making my own protocol which is as simple as can be for its specific use case. APRS seems like a good alternative, but the licensing requirements for transmitting would be problematic for general use with friend and kids during outdoors activities.
Can I program the Quansheng UV-K5 to keep within the legal limits? There are a few stories, it may not be within EU standards. Is this also your experience that it can't be used with -60dB, only stronger? Very interesting video! Thanks!
I’m currently playing with Meshtastic while studying for my HAM, the big draw to me for Meshtastic is the ability to legally encrypt messages. If I could use APRS with encryption I would likely do that.
This is only about the 4t time i even heard the name of this gadget. So if a few ppl was camping or working in the desert or Forrest. Each group in theory could use a helium balloon to lift a node to about 50 75 meters possibly teathered by a kite string with a possibility 30 gauge enameled copper wire for grunding and possibly mounting te antenna to. Maybe use hydrogen in the balloon, produced from water and a solar panel. With say 5+ groups of 2-4+ ppl. Say 2-5 miles apart. This could allow basic communication between them each group having a node close by (roughly 150' high) possibly a central node in a Forrest location with tall trees. They should have good comms . Especially in a desert location as long as the nodes can see each other, and the people on the ground can see a node. I can see this being awsome with some improvements relax regulations slightly, with a 8-10 watt Maximum (and 2watt buffer) an a slight change to transmission protocol. Have a short term memory to store messages if they can't be instantly transitted. Have the messages lined up like the start of a race , one goes, a few seconds later the next, then a few seconds then another, possibly receive messages before transmitting the next. Maybe a received confirmation signal. Then the next transmission to prevent lost messages and congestion. Maybe divide into channels by the frequency of the message how fast the message itself is sent. Like talking faster and slower. Wth the same volume. Say the two channels. One is one word/sec. Two is 2 word's/sec. Actually much faster with not such large difference in rate, but the system programed to seperatethe two. And what abut transmission over CB radio frequency?? Sorry to ramble, havea awesome day!
Would it be beneficial for APRS to adopt a modern chirp modulation? This would improve range and reduce required power.
Hey sn0ren , could u share where I could get your splash wallpaper .bmp file because I’m in love with it and I wanna add it to my hackrf
It’s on the mayhem discord 🤘
What is the best aprs firmware for the quansheng radio?
Search for KD8CEC
👍
How can I communicate with my other people during hikes, when the radio signals get blocked by trees, hills and mountains? Do I have to inflate a baloon to make this work? 😀
Placing a node high up that everyone has line of sight with would solve it, yes.
So it's APRS for messaging?
is it legal to send 0,5 watt in Denmark and ond wich bands.
LoRa is using the P sub band of ISM in Europe which is 869.4 MHz - 869.65 MHz with a legal max power output of 500 mW and a 10% duty cycle from type approved, narrow band devices. If you want to transmit fm voice you can use the PMR frequencies with type approved radios with a fixed antenna, that band is also 500 mW max output.
This possible with a flipper?
No. Not yet at least. Maybe someone will make a LoRa module for flipper.
Oh man ☹️ I checked both the meshtastic and aprs maps in my area and there are no nodes at all in my whole country 😭😭😭
You can be the first to get it started 🙏
Meshtastic doesn't by default interact with the internet, so there is no automatic way of creating such maps.
@@ruprecht9997 I was referring to the map in the meshtastic website. If that is true, then maybe there are nodes near me.
I guess the only way to truly know is to run my own node and see if there's anyone out there 😂
Are you going to Bornhack?
Maybe
The thing is, APRS is good but it’s simply not as convenient as meshtastic.
What is the max range
The range is line of sight. The longest range record for Meshtastic is 254 km. But that requires both parties to be very high up and have good antennas. If you are down by the ground and surrounded by large buildings, the range can be as low as 100 meters or less. Height is might.
I think the T deck typing issue is hardware related and cant be mitigated or resolved by the Meshtastic devs. Something about the microcontroller being single threaded I believe.
The keyboard works much better in Ripple, an alternative firmware for t-deck.
@@sn0ren Well that firmware may not have as much to do on the UI loop. I am pretty sure the dev's said there was not much they could do in this case, due to single threading.
ive given up on meshtastic, nice idea on paper, rubbish idea in reality when a tiny device requires a mammoth battery, so in a SHTF situ, meshtastic will be pointless and completely unusable within 2 days using a 20'000mah battery pack, which basically means in a SHTF situ a 2nd class stamped letter will be faster at messaging! i love the idea of radio, but its only useful if you still have electricity on tap(and lots and lots of it!) and when thats gone, a paper, pen and bicycle will be your best bet for comms! radio for use as a 2nd layer comms yeah i agree we all need it, for hacking yeah i agree we need it, but its a never gonna be your main comms 7 days into a nationwide blackout or national emergency like war!
Something is wrong with your setup if it drains a 20.000 mAh battery in 2 days. I've run for a week off a 2.000 mAh battery without charging.
Music was a bit too loud today mate. The drumbeat also conflicted with your voice and made it harder to understand what you were saying 🫤
Sorry about that - I thought I turned down the music even more than usual thought. There are subtitles if you need it.
@@sn0ren Yeah, the subtitles are handy, but I like your speaking voice 👍
I think certain tempos & bass instruments conflict with the frequency of men's voices more than say stringed instruments or synth sounds...
I disagree. The music mix was just right and I could understand every word
Finished it. Skipped the setup but there’s had some legit points about functionality post set up. Especially with the Lilygo T-Deck. But that’s a dev board in its infancy. That said, you COMPLETELY failed to mention encryption and the lack there of within APRS and HAM 📻 in general. The main feature of Meshtastic off grid low powered long range encrypted comms. Failing to mention this point in contrast to APRS is completely disingenuous.
The video was getting a bit long so I had to skip some parts, so I chose to skip the part that interests me the least. I'm not interested in encrypted communication, there are plenty better ways of doing that without having to resort to RF. My interest is in experimenting with RF, antennas and modulations and I think that's also the case for a lot of people that are getting started with Meshtastic. And for them I think amateur radio can offer even more similar fun things to play with.
“Hobby Radio” is not a great name either. I like “Experimental Radio.”
It's not off grid if it works on another grid.😂😂 You can call it mesh, lattice, framework, network, grille, reticulum.
Long range is an abused term here.
It depends on your frame of reference, and also relative to the power consumption.
Meshtastic feels like a gimmick to sell surplus electronics like esp32s