Richard is one of the hardest working youtubers on the platform. Your love of engines comes through your videos and is a joy to experience. That enthusiasm is just contagious. Thanks Richard for all the work you put in. It shows
I believe each has their place. However for drag racing, I like the de stroked engine. I believe it makes the power more manageable. Also if adding a power adder. In most cases you can obtain more torque than you can put to the ground all at once.
I was thinking the same i just commented on another post how my dad had a 70 camaro with a destroke 400 and ran out big blocks and large displacement small block! I wonder what one of these modern fuel injected computerized engines could really do
The key advantage of the short stroke imo shows itself on a road course; big peak power but not enough torque to worry about lighting tires up out of a hairpin dig. Translates to more consistent and controllable exit speeds.
There's a black c6 time attack car that discusses this topic for his twin turbo 427. The mentality is that the rpm needed with the short stroke engine will need servicing more frequently...and the massive torque even in rwd applications is really valuable out of all corners at all speeds. Whether you agree or not, look at the rwd time attack builds and the no-torque logic doesn't hold much weight.
Since I am a hard core Pontiac nut, and I am used to 500ftlbs (or more) from idle to 6000rpm, I will go with a stroked 6.0 in my 98 Formula, and maybe in one of the old trucks if I get the money for the crank kits. I did the 6.0 in my 76 C10 with a 212/218/112 torque cam and 706 heads, so it will pull my trailer and be lots of fun to drive without the trailer. I always go for more torque.. HP will take care of itself. With at least 425ftlbs for a long time the 6.0 should work real well for what I am doing with it. Not gonna get that from an SBC for what I have in this thing, much easier to do with a Pontiac, but those are getting hard to find and all of mine are earmarked for cars already.
Hard one here my dad had a 70 camaro with a destroke 400 and he ran out of big blocks and large displacement small blocks life im curious as how a fuel injected could perform with todays computer tuning
@@azariahwilkins4669 riiiiiight. I bet it had dual point distributor, double hump heads, 3/4 cam, Holley double pumper, true dual exhaust and air shocks too. Oh don't forget the Muncie 4 speed.
I agree with more Cubes. You can always throw some more Boost to an engine easily. You can't just do a pulley swap and pick up 50-60cubes. Start with the biggest platform you can afford and go from there.
I would like to see the 339 with a set of ls3 heads and a ls3 intake and a little smaller cam like 233/238 .600 and see what the long runner intake would do for the torque curve compared to a 5.3 or 6.0 you don't need a lot of low end on street tires, blowing off the tires don't go fast but after you get moving the upper power range can be used.
Just what I needed! I’m trying to build my 408 and this felt like it was meant to be haha. Hope your family stays well and keep up the great videos I love the channel
personally i'd take the de-stroker. I tend to prefer lighter cars and a manual though, so that plays a part in my decision. If you can take mass out of the rotating assembly you can drop revs faster, which starts to matter if you are running a stick real hard. that and nothing feels better than hanging in the gear longer than the other guy imo
practical or mot i love the high rpm destroked stuff, the sound and feel of tem is awsome. In racing with gearing and relitive things high rpm can out preform torque but for street its a pain
I'd love to see a 4.185 x 3.25" (or even ls7 block 4.8 crank to be a little cheaper) LS combo paying homage to NASCAR cup engines - but you'd have to take that one to 9000 rpm. With a featherweight clutch and flywheel it would make the best noises.
In smashin everything out here in a forged 408 G8!! Fixin to add a 400 shot over the winter! Would you believe 10.70 NA ETs?? Thanks Richard!! Look forward to ALL your posts!🏁🏁🏁
I think a good set tires on a 408 stroker should take 339. 339 only way it will win is top end race. Drag race 408. Unless 408 had crappy traction tires and start spinning. All depends how it's modded. High rpm or low rpm.
Love the videos. Torque is what does all the work. RPM is what tears up parts. Gear the vehicle to use the available torque. Bragging about the high hp numbers is only good for bench racing.
Lower torque engine is gonna be easier to hook off the line. With the high quality stall converters available and proper gearing that destroked will eat the stroked engine alive.
Would love for you to (if you havent already) do this with a destroked LS7 388 vs the 408. I like the idea of the smaller cubic inch motors. They still made tons of power and use less fuel on the street cruising around. My dad always said only thing to substitute for cubes was rpm.
My opinion, higher rpm capability can win races because you extend time before shifting and reducing that mechanical advantage. My pick though, displacement every time. 408 is way better power delivery for the street. It will feel way faster, and be more responsive.
The destroke motors are good for hillclimb, time attack, road racing. The stroker is good for street and drag. I already have a 505 mopar so I would choose a destroker for my E36 M3 track car. Since I don’t have the budget, Ill settle for any aluminium block with stock rotating assembly, cam and boost ✌🏼
shifting through a transmission that drops rpm by 1/3 the destroker goes from 8100rpm to 5400rpm and the big motor goes from 6600rpm to 4400rpm (rear end gerars to put both at the same speed would be 4.11 and 5.04). the average horspower to calculate would be 550ish for the big motor and maybe a little less for the destroker.
@@tadwiltman4875 I have built several Ls engines. Also built a few SBF engines, and now I just want to finally build a BBC for a drag racing project. Something to give the locals a whole other version of WTF WAS THAT!!! I said an S10 earlier, but the real project will be a Ford Freestar with a tube chassis, BBC, th400, and 9" on 28x10.5's. Don't care if I win, just want to head fake everyone when it arrives and starts up.
@@overyonderjustapiece nothing wrong with that at all. I'm building a C Prepared autocross car. There's a significant (300 lb) weight break below 5.1L (311.22 ci). Building an LS of that size is not terribly common, and will be another style of "head fake"
Honestly.... Either would be nice👌🏼. Final choice would come down to transmission for me though... Manual, Stroker. (Easy choice) Auto, 50/50.. (Hard choice).
in a street vehicle the larger area under the curve generated by the larger displacement of the stroker would feel a lot more fun; but i think that destroker would be really fun in something like a weekend warrior Vega or maverick that may see a roadcourse or something where you could keep it in the powerband more comfortably
The short stroke high reving engines are a blast in a road race car! As for COVID-19... my wife and I just got over having it. It cut into our cardio workouts a bit, but all in all it seamed pretty mild. The standard flu is WAY worse! (Personal experience) After two weeks we’re back to 100%. Great show!! I dig all the cool tech angles Thank you
@@OGbqze you're not going to have as much trouble getting the destroked one to hook with a paltry 450ftlbs way out at 6000 rpm, but you will have a harder time hooking up 450ftlbs at 3000 500ftlbs at 3500, and 580ftlbs from 4600 to 5500, you won't need as much gear to get it moving and into the high RPM range where the destroker has to be to make power. Want to know why most guys who build engines that make torque like the 408 tend to run slower? They gear them too deep. There is no reason to put a 4.56 gear behind that 408, but every reason to put it behind the destroked LS3, because the LS3 is making a lot less torque everywhere and under 400ftlbs until 5250 rpm. Put a 3.42 or at most a 3.73 behind the 408 in a 3000lb car and you are going to take the destroked engine to gapplebees in a 3000lb car with whatever gear you put in it, and you will be able to drive the 408 to the track and back. You get the gears to work for you and keep the engine in the RPM range where it makes power. I'll take the grunt engine every time, because its making a lot more torque than the high rpm engines. Its how I could run mid 12s in a 4000lb 70 GTO, running a stock converter, 2.93 gears with an 8:1 compression 455, no power adders whatsoever, that got 20mpg highway with a Qjet and made cross country road trips all the time. Yes 2.93 gears, not a typo. That same engine, trans and gear in a sub 2000lb Opel GT would be a lot quicker than 12s. My daily driver 65 GTO with a 455 that has 11.5:1 running E85, and only 8 degrees more duration at .050 runs bottom 11s with a 3.42 gear, Th350, 2200stall, and its 3600lbs with me in it. Its my daily driver, very mild cam, its had Qjets, Holleys, and Fitech EFI on it. I use it to tune carbs i convert to ethanol. It gets 17mpg because the aero on a 65 is really bad. It won't take much to put it in the 10s really, probably just a little more duration and take the stereo out of it.. or have my daughter who weighs almost 200lbs less than I do drive it. To move a similar vehicle in weight and aero as my 65, the LS engines with a lot less torque are going to need even more gear, and a power adder to run what this thing does with a basic Qjet. That destroked one is going to need a gear in the 5s, and it might get to the 8th quicker, but I am not counting on that. Much easier to hook the destroked one though. Now that Opel GT I mentioned, yeah I am building one to get my 467 Pontiac that makes over 700ftlbs/hp under 6500rpm, it made 520 rear wheel torque at only 3500rpm on a chassis dyno, with one dead and two down cylinders because of gravel down the carb. Its fixed now, so ya know its more than 600ftlbs at 3500 at the crank. Imagine that in a 1900lb Opel with a 3.08 gear and 28" tall tires. It cost less to build that than it would that destroked LS too. If the world doesn't go to shit and we can't race anymore, you'll see it out in a year or two.
@@SweatyFatGuy Torque converter stall speed is enough BY ITSELF to sell me on the 408 as opposed to the destroker. 408 would use a 3000RPM converter, maybe 3200 MAX. Being the owner of a chevelle with a 3000rpm converter behind a 600hp LS, I can say 3000 is very streetable. Hell I daily the car far more often than I should . That destroker would be USELESS without a 4500RPM stall converter, likely closer to 5000, sluggish in low RPM ranges, above all it would SCREAM on the freeway taking into account gear and converter slip.
@@rustysausage69 thats the way I think too man, I like to be able to drive my stuff, not have to trailer it everywhere because it doesn't make any power until 5500. The destroked one would be fun in a T bucket you only run at the track, but with all that RPM required its going to need lots of maintenance, especially in the valve train. I want to build a cathedral port LS 400 with an aluminum 6.0 block and a decent sized roller for my 98 Formula, keep it looking stock but make a lot more power than the 5.7 ever dreamed of. The rear end is already screwed, so why not throw more power at it? It needs a 9" anyway, because the 7.5s they came with are very weak. Also the 5.7 has 199k on it, bought the thing to be my long distance driver because its fun and got decent mileage (27-31 highway)while I was stationed 1500 miles from my home state where my kids were. I really like the LS, but man they are pricey. They make my Pontiacs look dirt cheap for the same power. The cool thing is some of them are so easy and cheap to get, like iron block 5.3s. hell people give them to me now, and lots of parts interchange easily, just like my Pontiac engines where everything but the pistons and cranks interchange. If I can't drive it, what's the point in having it?
Destroked version for something like small tire, drag radial, no prep etc.. and it'll really shine on the big end of a quarter mile. But stroked-up for the gigantic Hoosiers and two-speeds in the 1/8th mile
The stroker seems more suited for a manual heavy car with a big tire vs the high rpm destroker that would be more suited for a 10sp auto camaro on some drag radials
It would be interesting to swap the cranks between a 4.8 and 7.0, then compare them with an 5.7. They would all displace 5.7-5.9. Maybe even all 5.9 with some overbores.
The factory cylinder sleeve in a 4.8 is not physically deep enough to accomodate a 4" stroke crank. It gets sketchy going bigger than 3.75" for that reason, resleeve the block is the proper way to do it...if not, the bottom of an off-the-shelf piston pokes out the bottom of the sleeve and theres a ridge worn into the skirt from the end of the sleeve, or you use a custom piston with a short enough skirt to not poke out the bottom but its so short that it doesn't prevent the piston from rocking in the bores as well as a longer skirt so skirt wear is again accelerated. At that point, if you resleeve a 4.8, who in the right mind would put new 3.78" bore sleeves back in? Wouldn't cost any more to 4.125" bore that sumbitch. Destroked LS7 would be 347 (identical to the LS1 which is also 347), stroked 4.8 would be 359 cubes.
@@rustysausage69 You can take a 4.8/5.3 (same block, no sleeves) from 3.780 to 3.905 and pair that with a 4" aftermarket crank. Any 363 stroker or 383 stroker that can be made from a 5.3 can be made with a 4.8. They are doing this all around the country, because they are cheap and way more available. FYI all 4.8l blocks are cast iron. If we're talking aluminum block 5.3, Texas speed cuts the old sleeves out and makes 427 ls motors ready to go, but they are expensive! Much cheaper to pick up a junkyard LR4 and buy stroker rotating assembly, have your local machine shop bore the block to LS1 bore or common overbore. For 3-4K you have a monster combo.
@@Mattvardaman Buying ANY stock block and overboring it .125 is a HORRIBLE IDEA, max overbore is ~.060 on the iron blocks. Also, might be just me but why would someone spend 4K on a 4.8 block when they could spend that money on a 6.0 and have FAR more options for cylinder heads? I did hours and hours of research when I built my 6.0 and the LS community seems to be bipolar about whether stock sleeves can reliably handle a 4" stroke, theres NO middle ground at all. I've seen all the stroker kits and the height of the piston skirt doesn't instill confidence AT ALL...handful of credible builders, dyno geeks and magazine articles have said its not recommended under any circumstance then a handful of random guys on forums say they've done it with no issues. My guess is the random dudes don't know if theres issues because they don't tear the motor down to inspect everything. For that reason, I stayed stock displacement for my engine.
@@rustysausage69 Richard Holdner built a 383ci out of a 5.3 iron block and made a video. You can't bore the 6.0 engines more than .060 safely, but the 4.8/5.3 blocks have plenty of room. Around here 6.0's are ridiculously high, and 4.8's are $100. Take it easy man. Edit: the cast iron blocks don’t have sleeves, and Richard made a video TODAY saying all I said. 383 vs 6.0
@@Mattvardaman I stand corrected about the overbores. 6.0 definitely has sleeves, i know because I've built the 6.0 in my chevelle twice, and my point still stands that if you spent identical money it took to build the 383 on a 6.0, itd make more power. Some of that money might go towards buying a drop-out engine, fine, but the 6.0 won't always require an overbore (unless high mileage), and you can run LS3 heads on the 6.0 because the bore is big enough.
I had the virus back in September, hits like a harder cold but I came out just fine. Still slowly getting my smell/taste back but it’s coming slowly. Even if you do get it, you’ll be just fine Richard. Keep up the good work 👍🏻
Destroked for small tire applications or sbe turbo stuff. Less torque is more friendly for both. Currently putting together a 331" destroked 6.0ls with a 80mm turbo for a 64 AMC Rambler. Even after the mini tubs it will only accept a 275 tire
Great videos. Making more power (torque) used to be everyone's goal, so definitely the bigger motor wins. Now days the hp/torque numbers are so big, people start choosing the less powerful combos because of tire spin issues. Lol. You have to get it to the ground. The appropriate suspension and traction control definitely needed. But the big torque motor will always win!!!
The short stroke is really more of a road race/boat use motor I am interested in. Something that can run for 2-4 hrs none stop and then again tomorrow and the next day.
450 to 580 lb*ft of peak torque can be overcome with 30% lower rear gear, like from 3.73 to 4.88. But the 408 stroker in this video was making higher bmep at peak torque, and it held the peak power plateau longer than the 339. The 408 made much higher average power. I've always been a sucker for big-bore, short stroke engines, but they are an advantage only when class rules put on a displacement limit. Then to make power, rpm has to go up, and you have to buy Titanium valves and con rods.
Wow Richard. With optimized gearing I expected the de-stroke to have an advantage but it looks like they would be pretty much equal in a race application. Both engines would also be fun on the street just in different ways, the de-stroke would suck to tow with. Excellent test, thanks!
I don't think they would, if you look at the time the motors spend at peak power, the stroked 6.0 makes more average power. It makes less peak power, but it make more power over a wider RPM range. And with the torque down low, its going to come out of corners harder.
I think for red light application and my personal preference I would go stroker. But that de-stroked would be nice for circuit racing or drifting. and trust me I would take both in a heartbeat 😂
I think the extra Torque, especially that big of a gap its the way to go. Especially on a street car, it would be lots of fun. We had my 516 on the engine dyno with the dyno headers, car made peak hp at 6600. Then we put my Hooker Headers with side pipes on the dyno, lost 14hp and 200rpm , but picked up 90 ft lbs in the midrange. I'll take that trade any day.
I honestly think that if geared properly the de-stroked will out accelerate the stroker for the simple reasoning that the de-stroked engine will have more power pulses in the same amount of time.(RPM) and the horsepower will win every time if the gearing is there to make up for the torque loss. Same reason that we don't drag race caterpillar diesel trucks in the pro stock classes.
Sorry to hear about your exposure. Hope your family comes through OK. We have had a few cases in our family. The worst that happened was my nephew, a real foodie, lost his sense of taste and smell for a month. Really drove him nuts more than anything else. Be well!
Well on good luck with your events going on. 4.56 gear would be a good short 1/4 mile run with de stroked. 2.92 to 3.05 gear would be a tow gear and good 1.5 mile run with the 408 stroked motor . i have 2.92 gears in my caprice l77 6.0 flex fuel from 0 to 70 it will blast a city block in seconds. It also has a 4000 pound max towing rate. L77 is the aluminium block. Be safe and thank you for the 408 info it's something i want to build.
For the de-stroker, ditch the carbs, get that new shaft mounted rocker set up, and then treat it like you did the Big Bang 4.8. Nitrous, 1 turbo 2 turbo, and I think I just saw you playing around with a twin Supercharger set up??? We would love to see how far up the rpm scale you can take it. Stay safe Stay fun🇺🇸👍🇺🇸🤘🇺🇸
I think getting a reliable valvetrain to ensure the 408 could rev to 7250-7500 to utilize the entirety of the power curve would really help. Shifting at peak power doesn't do it for me. I would love to see that same 408 with two of those GT42 eBay turbos, too.
LOL... just my opinion, I just built a LS3 416 with a BTR stage 2 cam that’s considered pretty mild cam for a stroker combination. My daily street restorod loves it, I love it....bottom line... there’s no replacement for displacement... I love low end torque and high end horse power. Who doesn’t. The bigger displacement gives both. I don’t really care that the de stroked LS3 makes a few more ponies at the top with a huge loss of torque. Spinning the engine to 8000 rpm is very impressive but probably kills longevity in the long run.
Depends on the application.For my USCCA build I want high rpms.Short stroke is a must.CV19.A disease so deadly you have to be tested to know you have it.
Wrong. You want a nice broad, high torque curve to stay in the gear longer. RPM has nothing to do with it. The 408 would kill this destroked pile in every single use-case. Drag race, autocross, or Road America.
@@porkbuttrocks which is it, you both sound right. I’ve always thought the high rpm stuff was for road courses but your broad high torque makes really good sense. I’m trying to decide between the two for my Porsche 997 swap. I want the v8 power but I’m not sure the stroker’s high torque a low rpm will suit the car well.
Reading comments and what Richard is assuming is that both of these are going into a drag car. You're only using them for less than ~15 seconds at a time full tilt. The greater stroke engine is fine for that length of time but put it on a road course and it may not last very long whereas the destroked engine will scream along all day for extended minutes long laps over and over. The real question is which one would you rather have in each application
The destroked would be perfect candidate for huge boost to make big hp as the low torque would be an advantage in engine longevity. 50 lbs of boost 2000 hp would be attainable with far more reliability. Sorry to hear about the Covid, I hope it's just a scare. Don't mess around if ya get even slightly crook. Personally been exposed 3 times and have had to do the quarantine thing but even on 20 a day at 54 I never even got the sniffles. Best of luck to your wife and family.
I think the destroker on the track could pay off with a 6spd or a DCT - if you can save a shift that can put you a car length ahead before you have to brake for a corner and that's a big advantage. On the drag strip or the street though seems like the stroker motor would be set to dominate.
Stroker for sure. Only place a destroked combo works is when rules are applied such as size limits, or weight per cubic inch. Modern pro stock uses the biggest bore for largest valve area and small stroke for light rotating mass and to make 500 inch rules. They are now limited to 10,500 rpm by rules I believe. Torque rules on drag strip, and lower rpm helps parts live longer!
That isn’t quite how that works. It’s working harder to make the less torque. The cylinder pressure will be higher on a smaller engine to do the same work. The higher the cylinder pressure is the higher the load is on the rotating assembly.
I hope your wife and kids are all going to be okay! Scary stuff. With that 408 combo, what kind of stall converter would you need behind that in a truck application? It looks like it had 400+tq under 3000rpm.
I noticed 1 3/4" headers on both applications, correct? If so, that just goes to show that you can still make killer power without having to go to 1 7/8" or 2" headers with bigger displacement motors.
In my race car racing autocross with at least one 15 MPH hairpin turn per course the 408 would be the one to go with. I run an automatic trans because I barely have room for gas and brake pedals so I lean on the converter a lot coming out of the tight turns.
![Megan Thee Stallion - Bigger In Texas [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/QxTkZTLWdo4/mqdefault.jpg)
If he is quarantined you know he is gonna have Dyno charts of his vacuum, blender and dishwasher before the week is out.
Lawnmower
How much torque does a Golden Retriever make? Let's find out!
@@spazda_mx5 dog power > horsepower
Today we take the turbine from my hoover and strap it to me wifes hairdryer and try to create a compound turbo system for my dog
You guys are killing me I can't stop laughing 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣. You know it's all true!
Richard is one of the hardest working youtubers on the platform. Your love of engines comes through your videos and is a joy to experience. That enthusiasm is just contagious. Thanks Richard for all the work you put in. It shows
Thanks 👍
The music is my fav
I’ve tuned a ton of tsp 400’s that easily make 520whp on pumpgas
@@SloppyMechanics do you do remote tuning?
“Make work your favorite” -Elf
Richard, how are you gonna to make a high rpm LS and then deprive us of a sound clip!?
Stroker for sure. I like low end power. Makes for a bigger rear tire bill, though!
I believe each has their place. However for drag racing, I like the de stroked engine. I believe it makes the power more manageable. Also if adding a power adder. In most cases you can obtain more torque than you can put to the ground all at once.
I was thinking the same i just commented on another post how my dad had a 70 camaro with a destroke 400 and ran out big blocks and large displacement small block! I wonder what one of these modern fuel injected computerized engines could really do
I run an LS2 at the track. Need loads of torque to get off the line and be under 2 sec 60 ft. at a mile high in altitude.
Ya less likely to lose traction
The key advantage of the short stroke imo shows itself on a road course; big peak power but not enough torque to worry about lighting tires up out of a hairpin dig. Translates to more consistent and controllable exit speeds.
Say that a little louder for the stroker guys blowing the tires away on the starting line at EVERY drag strip.
There's a black c6 time attack car that discusses this topic for his twin turbo 427. The mentality is that the rpm needed with the short stroke engine will need servicing more frequently...and the massive torque even in rwd applications is really valuable out of all corners at all speeds. Whether you agree or not, look at the rwd time attack builds and the no-torque logic doesn't hold much weight.
I think in the rev range we got here I would go the 408 striker, it's more pretty much everywhere in the test range
Since I am a hard core Pontiac nut, and I am used to 500ftlbs (or more) from idle to 6000rpm, I will go with a stroked 6.0 in my 98 Formula, and maybe in one of the old trucks if I get the money for the crank kits. I did the 6.0 in my 76 C10 with a 212/218/112 torque cam and 706 heads, so it will pull my trailer and be lots of fun to drive without the trailer. I always go for more torque.. HP will take care of itself. With at least 425ftlbs for a long time the 6.0 should work real well for what I am doing with it. Not gonna get that from an SBC for what I have in this thing, much easier to do with a Pontiac, but those are getting hard to find and all of mine are earmarked for cars already.
I hope the COVID is just a scare for you Richard and Lisa. Be safe and don’t mess around if ya get feeling icky. God bless ya guys
Call me old fashioned but I'll take more cubes every time
Low end torque FTW
Hard one here my dad had a 70 camaro with a destroke 400 and he ran out of big blocks and large displacement small blocks life im curious as how a fuel injected could perform with todays computer tuning
But it’s the new age. Cubes don’t mean anything anymore.
@@azariahwilkins4669 riiiiiight. I bet it had dual point distributor, double hump heads, 3/4 cam, Holley double pumper, true dual exhaust and air shocks too. Oh don't forget the Muncie 4 speed.
I agree with more Cubes. You can always throw some more Boost to an engine easily. You can't just do a pulley swap and pick up 50-60cubes. Start with the biggest platform you can afford and go from there.
I would like to see the 339 with a set of ls3 heads and a ls3 intake and a little smaller cam like 233/238 .600 and see what the long runner intake would do for the torque curve compared to a 5.3 or 6.0 you don't need a lot of low end on street tires, blowing off the tires don't go fast but after you get moving the upper power range can be used.
The stroker is more usable power. Destroker would definitely sound good though at 8000rpm. Got to love a screamer. Put her in the ketchup.
Adam Moore she's mint!
Just what I needed! I’m trying to build my 408 and this felt like it was meant to be haha. Hope your family stays well and keep up the great videos I love the channel
Much prefer the 339, especially for the road race application. Less torque off the hit means a more stable rear end from apex to exit.
personally i'd take the de-stroker. I tend to prefer lighter cars and a manual though, so that plays a part in my decision. If you can take mass out of the rotating assembly you can drop revs faster, which starts to matter if you are running a stick real hard. that and nothing feels better than hanging in the gear longer than the other guy imo
well said gotta Love a high wind'N Motor with Authority
It's faster in most scenarios except heavy traffic and the 1/8th mile
Given each engine is supported by proper gearing, the engine with more area under the power curve will always win.
INCREDIBLE AMOUNT OF INTEL HERE. THANK YOU VERY MUCH RICH🏁🏁🏁
practical or mot i love the high rpm destroked stuff, the sound and feel of tem is awsome. In racing with gearing and relitive things high rpm can out preform torque but for street its a pain
I'd love to see a 4.185 x 3.25" (or even ls7 block 4.8 crank to be a little cheaper) LS combo paying homage to NASCAR cup engines - but you'd have to take that one to 9000 rpm. With a featherweight clutch and flywheel it would make the best noises.
I’ll take the 408 STROKER any day.... even over COVID-19!!!!
In smashin everything out here in a forged 408 G8!! Fixin to add a 400 shot over the winter! Would you believe 10.70 NA ETs??
Thanks Richard!! Look forward to ALL your posts!🏁🏁🏁
I think a good set tires on a 408 stroker should take 339. 339 only way it will win is top end race. Drag race 408. Unless 408 had crappy traction tires and start spinning. All depends how it's modded. High rpm or low rpm.
@@Silkmaster4200 I run 285 MT SS's
boyyyyy do i have a turbo set up for you :D
Richard holdener and boosted lifestyle, my 2 favorite RUclips channels 😎
needs at least 8, right?
Yes he does, things crazy
I wouldn't say no to 8000 rpm and boost...
@@travisabrahamson5092 ll
I always liked the destroked sound of 8000rpm, but the stroker is more functional for sure.
Very informative, god bless you and your family, prayers going out to you all for a speedy and complete recovery.
THNX BUT NOT SURE WE WILL EVEN GET IT
Lower torque at low rpm makes a car friendlier for driving in the rain, making driving your car easier to do on a daily, just a thought
Love the videos. Torque is what does all the work. RPM is what tears up parts. Gear the vehicle to use the available torque. Bragging about the high hp numbers is only good for bench racing.
Lower torque engine is gonna be easier to hook off the line. With the high quality stall converters available and proper gearing that destroked will eat the stroked engine alive.
Destroker, plus 2 small-medium turbos.
He did that but with a single turbo about 2 months ago
@@masyningles8667 I wasn't saying I wanted to see him test that, I was saying that would be my choice.
@@deciplesteve good choice.
If I had the money stroker 625 hp is more than what most need or can use or control. I'd take the stock 6.0 LQ4 😃
Would love for you to (if you havent already) do this with a destroked LS7 388 vs the 408. I like the idea of the smaller cubic inch motors. They still made tons of power and use less fuel on the street cruising around. My dad always said only thing to substitute for cubes was rpm.
My opinion, higher rpm capability can win races because you extend time before shifting and reducing that mechanical advantage.
My pick though, displacement every time. 408 is way better power delivery for the street. It will feel way faster, and be more responsive.
Hi Richard, prayers that you and your family will recover with full health, God willing. Love your stuff. Peace
In my 3800lb 2004 gto I'd go stroker, if I had a fox body mustang I'd go destroker because road race life
The destroke motors are good for hillclimb, time attack, road racing. The stroker is good for street and drag. I already have a 505 mopar so I would choose a destroker for my E36 M3 track car. Since I don’t have the budget, Ill settle for any aluminium block with stock rotating assembly, cam and boost ✌🏼
shifting through a transmission that drops rpm by 1/3 the destroker goes from 8100rpm to 5400rpm and the big motor goes from 6600rpm to 4400rpm (rear end gerars to put both at the same speed would be 4.11 and 5.04). the average horspower to calculate would be 550ish for the big motor and maybe a little less for the destroker.
I'm old school "There's no substitute for cubic inches" lol. I use to say that in my old big block days lol.
I am SERIOUSLY wanting to build a 632 BBC just to have one to put into an S-10...
There's no replacement for displacement, unless you're road racing... Then, there's no replacement for a light engine
@@tadwiltman4875 I have built several Ls engines. Also built a few SBF engines, and now I just want to finally build a BBC for a drag racing project. Something to give the locals a whole other version of WTF WAS THAT!!!
I said an S10 earlier, but the real project will be a Ford Freestar with a tube chassis, BBC, th400, and 9" on 28x10.5's.
Don't care if I win, just want to head fake everyone when it arrives and starts up.
@@overyonderjustapiece nothing wrong with that at all.
I'm building a C Prepared autocross car. There's a significant (300 lb) weight break below 5.1L (311.22 ci). Building an LS of that size is not terribly common, and will be another style of "head fake"
@@tadwiltman4875 ls blocks weigh the same basically so shorter stroke motors won’t weigh any less really than a long stroke motor
Stroker for the street and de-stroked for the track
Of course
As per usual, mad scientist Richard out here doing the science oo we don't have to
Hope everyone in the family continues to be in good health!
Honestly.... Either would be nice👌🏼.
Final choice would come down to transmission for me though... Manual, Stroker. (Easy choice)
Auto, 50/50.. (Hard choice).
in a street vehicle the larger area under the curve generated by the larger displacement of the stroker would feel a lot more fun; but i think that destroker would be really fun in something like a weekend warrior Vega or maverick that may see a roadcourse or something where you could keep it in the powerband more comfortably
The short stroke high reving engines are a blast in a road race car!
As for COVID-19... my wife and I just got over having it. It cut into our cardio workouts a bit, but all in all it seamed pretty mild. The standard flu is WAY worse! (Personal experience) After two weeks we’re back to 100%.
Great show!! I dig all the cool tech angles
Thank you
The torque curve on the destroker is flatter so, with gearing, it should be quicker.
Better have some damn good traction for that monster tho.
@@OGbqze you're not going to have as much trouble getting the destroked one to hook with a paltry 450ftlbs way out at 6000 rpm, but you will have a harder time hooking up 450ftlbs at 3000 500ftlbs at 3500, and 580ftlbs from 4600 to 5500, you won't need as much gear to get it moving and into the high RPM range where the destroker has to be to make power.
Want to know why most guys who build engines that make torque like the 408 tend to run slower? They gear them too deep. There is no reason to put a 4.56 gear behind that 408, but every reason to put it behind the destroked LS3, because the LS3 is making a lot less torque everywhere and under 400ftlbs until 5250 rpm.
Put a 3.42 or at most a 3.73 behind the 408 in a 3000lb car and you are going to take the destroked engine to gapplebees in a 3000lb car with whatever gear you put in it, and you will be able to drive the 408 to the track and back.
You get the gears to work for you and keep the engine in the RPM range where it makes power. I'll take the grunt engine every time, because its making a lot more torque than the high rpm engines. Its how I could run mid 12s in a 4000lb 70 GTO, running a stock converter, 2.93 gears with an 8:1 compression 455, no power adders whatsoever, that got 20mpg highway with a Qjet and made cross country road trips all the time. Yes 2.93 gears, not a typo. That same engine, trans and gear in a sub 2000lb Opel GT would be a lot quicker than 12s.
My daily driver 65 GTO with a 455 that has 11.5:1 running E85, and only 8 degrees more duration at .050 runs bottom 11s with a 3.42 gear, Th350, 2200stall, and its 3600lbs with me in it. Its my daily driver, very mild cam, its had Qjets, Holleys, and Fitech EFI on it. I use it to tune carbs i convert to ethanol. It gets 17mpg because the aero on a 65 is really bad. It won't take much to put it in the 10s really, probably just a little more duration and take the stereo out of it.. or have my daughter who weighs almost 200lbs less than I do drive it.
To move a similar vehicle in weight and aero as my 65, the LS engines with a lot less torque are going to need even more gear, and a power adder to run what this thing does with a basic Qjet. That destroked one is going to need a gear in the 5s, and it might get to the 8th quicker, but I am not counting on that. Much easier to hook the destroked one though.
Now that Opel GT I mentioned, yeah I am building one to get my 467 Pontiac that makes over 700ftlbs/hp under 6500rpm, it made 520 rear wheel torque at only 3500rpm on a chassis dyno, with one dead and two down cylinders because of gravel down the carb. Its fixed now, so ya know its more than 600ftlbs at 3500 at the crank. Imagine that in a 1900lb Opel with a 3.08 gear and 28" tall tires. It cost less to build that than it would that destroked LS too.
If the world doesn't go to shit and we can't race anymore, you'll see it out in a year or two.
That is an interesting statement I have not thought about
@@SweatyFatGuy Torque converter stall speed is enough BY ITSELF to sell me on the 408 as opposed to the destroker. 408 would use a 3000RPM converter, maybe 3200 MAX. Being the owner of a chevelle with a 3000rpm converter behind a 600hp LS, I can say 3000 is very streetable. Hell I daily the car far more often than I should .
That destroker would be USELESS without a 4500RPM stall converter, likely closer to 5000, sluggish in low RPM ranges, above all it would SCREAM on the freeway taking into account gear and converter slip.
@@rustysausage69 thats the way I think too man, I like to be able to drive my stuff, not have to trailer it everywhere because it doesn't make any power until 5500. The destroked one would be fun in a T bucket you only run at the track, but with all that RPM required its going to need lots of maintenance, especially in the valve train.
I want to build a cathedral port LS 400 with an aluminum 6.0 block and a decent sized roller for my 98 Formula, keep it looking stock but make a lot more power than the 5.7 ever dreamed of. The rear end is already screwed, so why not throw more power at it? It needs a 9" anyway, because the 7.5s they came with are very weak. Also the 5.7 has 199k on it, bought the thing to be my long distance driver because its fun and got decent mileage (27-31 highway)while I was stationed 1500 miles from my home state where my kids were.
I really like the LS, but man they are pricey. They make my Pontiacs look dirt cheap for the same power. The cool thing is some of them are so easy and cheap to get, like iron block 5.3s. hell people give them to me now, and lots of parts interchange easily, just like my Pontiac engines where everything but the pistons and cranks interchange.
If I can't drive it, what's the point in having it?
I'm still waiting for the specs on the "detroker".
Sweet baby Jesus I was going to ask in the last vid for guess what...a destroked 6.0 built to scream with a 4.8 crank vid...man I love this channel.
Destroker is cool, I've learnt from this. Love the sound of a high revving engine
If they are both properly geared, then they should perform pretty similarly. The difference, is that one of the two is much more streetable.
Destroked version for something like small tire, drag radial, no prep etc.. and it'll really shine on the big end of a quarter mile.
But stroked-up for the gigantic Hoosiers and two-speeds in the 1/8th mile
I hope your Wife, Kids, and you get better Brody 🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾💪🏾💪🏾💪🏾💪🏻💪🏻💪🏻... Stroker all day tho
The stroker seems more suited for a manual heavy car with a big tire vs the high rpm destroker that would be more suited for a 10sp auto camaro on some drag radials
It would be interesting to swap the cranks between a 4.8 and 7.0, then compare them with an 5.7. They would all displace 5.7-5.9. Maybe even all 5.9 with some overbores.
The factory cylinder sleeve in a 4.8 is not physically deep enough to accomodate a 4" stroke crank. It gets sketchy going bigger than 3.75" for that reason, resleeve the block is the proper way to do it...if not, the bottom of an off-the-shelf piston pokes out the bottom of the sleeve and theres a ridge worn into the skirt from the end of the sleeve, or you use a custom piston with a short enough skirt to not poke out the bottom but its so short that it doesn't prevent the piston from rocking in the bores as well as a longer skirt so skirt wear is again accelerated.
At that point, if you resleeve a 4.8, who in the right mind would put new 3.78" bore sleeves back in? Wouldn't cost any more to 4.125" bore that sumbitch.
Destroked LS7 would be 347 (identical to the LS1 which is also 347), stroked 4.8 would be 359 cubes.
@@rustysausage69 You can take a 4.8/5.3 (same block, no sleeves) from 3.780 to 3.905 and pair that with a 4" aftermarket crank. Any 363 stroker or 383 stroker that can be made from a 5.3 can be made with a 4.8. They are doing this all around the country, because they are cheap and way more available. FYI all 4.8l blocks are cast iron.
If we're talking aluminum block 5.3, Texas speed cuts the old sleeves out and makes 427 ls motors ready to go, but they are expensive! Much cheaper to pick up a junkyard LR4 and buy stroker rotating assembly, have your local machine shop bore the block to LS1 bore or common overbore. For 3-4K you have a monster combo.
@@Mattvardaman Buying ANY stock block and overboring it .125 is a HORRIBLE IDEA, max overbore is ~.060 on the iron blocks. Also, might be just me but why would someone spend 4K on a 4.8 block when they could spend that money on a 6.0 and have FAR more options for cylinder heads?
I did hours and hours of research when I built my 6.0 and the LS community seems to be bipolar about whether stock sleeves can reliably handle a 4" stroke, theres NO middle ground at all. I've seen all the stroker kits and the height of the piston skirt doesn't instill confidence AT ALL...handful of credible builders, dyno geeks and magazine articles have said its not recommended under any circumstance then a handful of random guys on forums say they've done it with no issues. My guess is the random dudes don't know if theres issues because they don't tear the motor down to inspect everything. For that reason, I stayed stock displacement for my engine.
@@rustysausage69 Richard Holdner built a 383ci out of a 5.3 iron block and made a video. You can't bore the 6.0 engines more than .060 safely, but the 4.8/5.3 blocks have plenty of room. Around here 6.0's are ridiculously high, and 4.8's are $100. Take it easy man.
Edit: the cast iron blocks don’t have sleeves, and Richard made a video TODAY saying all I said. 383 vs 6.0
@@Mattvardaman I stand corrected about the overbores. 6.0 definitely has sleeves, i know because I've built the 6.0 in my chevelle twice, and my point still stands that if you spent identical money it took to build the 383 on a 6.0, itd make more power. Some of that money might go towards buying a drop-out engine, fine, but the 6.0 won't always require an overbore (unless high mileage), and you can run LS3 heads on the 6.0 because the bore is big enough.
De-stroker! Easy choice. It gives: More revs, better sound and good usable power
Prayers for your fam and the COVID situation. Always take care of yourself 💪🏼 that wrench will always be there to turn
I like how he says “on this ls stuff” when there’s nothing ls but the block
I had the virus back in September, hits like a harder cold but I came out just fine. Still slowly getting my smell/taste back but it’s coming slowly. Even if you do get it, you’ll be just fine Richard. Keep up the good work 👍🏻
Destroked for small tire applications or sbe turbo stuff. Less torque is more friendly for both. Currently putting together a 331" destroked 6.0ls with a 80mm turbo for a 64 AMC Rambler. Even after the mini tubs it will only accept a 275 tire
Great videos. Making more power (torque) used to be everyone's goal, so definitely the bigger motor wins. Now days the hp/torque numbers are so big, people start choosing the less powerful combos because of tire spin issues. Lol. You have to get it to the ground. The appropriate suspension and traction control definitely needed. But the big torque motor will always win!!!
The short stroke is really more of a road race/boat use motor I am interested in. Something that can run for 2-4 hrs none stop and then again tomorrow and the next day.
Thanks Richard. Who says crying in the comments wouldn't help ? ALSO, STROKER for the street, Spinner for the track ;)
Next up, weedwacker stroker dyno pulls. 😜
All jokes aside, you have my utmost respect, and admiration. Great videos, always.
We just went through a COVID scare here and no one caught it; hope you're just as lucky!
450 to 580 lb*ft of peak torque can be overcome with 30% lower rear gear, like from 3.73 to 4.88. But the 408 stroker in this video was making higher bmep at peak torque, and it held the peak power plateau longer than the 339. The 408 made much higher average power.
I've always been a sucker for big-bore, short stroke engines, but they are an advantage only when class rules put on a displacement limit. Then to make power, rpm has to go up, and you have to buy Titanium valves and con rods.
There are a couplr racing classes that have weight/ci rules. That's where you find certain combos built for the class tire.
Dude praying for you and your family hopefully you all weren't exposed to the virus.
thnx-we r good
We run dirt track modified....lots of torque is hard to manage on a small tire but you still need the power for the straights
Its all in the shifts.
@@shadowopsairman1583 no shifting in dirt track racing
Hey brother, hoping Lisa, you and your family are safe. Thank you for all you do.
You too-we are all good so far
Wow Richard. With optimized gearing I expected the de-stroke to have an advantage but it looks like they would be pretty much equal in a race application. Both engines would also be fun on the street just in different ways, the de-stroke would suck to tow with. Excellent test, thanks!
I don't think they would, if you look at the time the motors spend at peak power, the stroked 6.0 makes more average power. It makes less peak power, but it make more power over a wider RPM range. And with the torque down low, its going to come out of corners harder.
I think for red light application and my personal preference I would go stroker. But that de-stroked would be nice for circuit racing or drifting. and trust me I would take both in a heartbeat 😂
Your fine Richard ... I’m still alive and I’m way less fit that you are ... plus you can keep making videos right at home !!! It’s a win for us ..
Depends on the weight, if it's a miata or something, I'll take the destroker, to tame the torque from killing me 😅
Nice video! I’m building a stroked turbo 6.0 right now!
I think the extra Torque, especially that big of a gap its the way to go. Especially on a street car, it would be lots of fun. We had my 516 on the engine dyno with the dyno headers, car made peak hp at 6600. Then we put my Hooker Headers with side pipes on the dyno, lost 14hp and 200rpm , but picked up 90 ft lbs in the midrange. I'll take that trade any day.
I honestly think that if geared properly the de-stroked will out accelerate the stroker for the simple reasoning that the de-stroked engine will have more power pulses in the same amount of time.(RPM) and the horsepower will win every time if the gearing is there to make up for the torque loss. Same reason that we don't drag race caterpillar diesel trucks in the pro stock classes.
Sorry to hear about your exposure. Hope your family comes through OK. We have had a few cases in our family. The worst that happened was my nephew, a real foodie, lost his sense of taste and smell for a month. Really drove him nuts more than anything else. Be well!
Love them both. Keep up the good work Richard and sending blessings to you and your family that you stay safe in all this Covid-19 madness👍
Stroker... for street cause torque. (ETA: Maybe for drag too)
Destroked for circuit track use.
Hoping you and the family stay healthy.
Well on good luck with your events going on.
4.56 gear would be a good short 1/4 mile run with de stroked.
2.92 to 3.05 gear would be a tow gear and good 1.5 mile run with the 408 stroked motor .
i have 2.92 gears in my caprice l77 6.0 flex fuel from 0 to 70 it will blast a city block in seconds. It also has a 4000 pound max towing rate.
L77 is the aluminium block.
Be safe and thank you for the 408 info it's something i want to build.
I love all your comparisons! It would be cool to compare an old school 454 BBC to a 454 stroked LS.
For the de-stroker, ditch the carbs, get that new shaft mounted rocker set up, and then treat it like you did the Big Bang 4.8. Nitrous, 1 turbo 2 turbo, and I think I just saw you playing around with a twin Supercharger set up??? We would love to see how far up the rpm scale you can take it. Stay safe Stay fun🇺🇸👍🇺🇸🤘🇺🇸
I think getting a reliable valvetrain to ensure the 408 could rev to 7250-7500 to utilize the entirety of the power curve would really help. Shifting at peak power doesn't do it for me. I would love to see that same 408 with two of those GT42 eBay turbos, too.
I couldnt tell you how many times I’ve came back and watched this video
it is popular
As the saying goes, there's no replacement for displacement!
LOL... just my opinion, I just built a LS3 416 with a BTR stage 2 cam that’s considered pretty mild cam for a stroker combination. My daily street restorod loves it, I love it....bottom line... there’s no replacement for displacement... I love low end torque and high end horse power. Who doesn’t. The bigger displacement gives both. I don’t really care that the de stroked LS3 makes a few more ponies at the top with a huge loss of torque. Spinning the engine to 8000 rpm is very impressive but probably kills longevity in the long run.
Sure the 408 makes more usable power, but that LS3 would be a blast to slam through the gears in a Chevy II.
Sorry to hear bout the covid i hope all turns out well and also awsome clips Richard keep them comeing
Depends on the application.For my USCCA build I want high rpms.Short stroke is a must.CV19.A disease so deadly you have to be tested to know you have it.
Forget drag, track days are where it's at, and having the rpm to stay in a good gear in a corner is preferable honestly
Wrong. You want a nice broad, high torque curve to stay in the gear longer. RPM has nothing to do with it. The 408 would kill this destroked pile in every single use-case. Drag race, autocross, or Road America.
@@porkbuttrocks which is it, you both sound right. I’ve always thought the high rpm stuff was for road courses but your broad high torque makes really good sense. I’m trying to decide between the two for my Porsche 997 swap. I want the v8 power but I’m not sure the stroker’s high torque a low rpm will suit the car well.
Reading comments and what Richard is assuming is that both of these are going into a drag car. You're only using them for less than ~15 seconds at a time full tilt. The greater stroke engine is fine for that length of time but put it on a road course and it may not last very long whereas the destroked engine will scream along all day for extended minutes long laps over and over.
The real question is which one would you rather have in each application
The high RPM motor can run very good in a very light car, but a heavy car or truck will need the stroker version..
I’d like to see the 408 with the cam and intake from the de stroked engine. That would be awesome!!
The destroked would be perfect candidate for huge boost to make big hp as the low torque would be an advantage in engine longevity. 50 lbs of boost 2000 hp would be attainable with far more reliability.
Sorry to hear about the Covid, I hope it's just a scare. Don't mess around if ya get even slightly crook. Personally been exposed 3 times and have had to do the quarantine thing but even on 20 a day at 54 I never even got the sniffles. Best of luck to your wife and family.
I think the destroker on the track could pay off with a 6spd or a DCT - if you can save a shift that can put you a car length ahead before you have to brake for a corner and that's a big advantage. On the drag strip or the street though seems like the stroker motor would be set to dominate.
Stroker for sure. Only place a destroked combo works is when rules are applied such as size limits, or weight per cubic inch. Modern pro stock uses the biggest bore for largest valve area and small stroke for light rotating mass and to make 500 inch rules. They are now limited to 10,500 rpm by rules I believe. Torque rules on drag strip, and lower rpm helps parts live longer!
The destroke is good for boost, the lower torque numbers will help keep the bottom end together a higher power numbers
That isn’t quite how that works. It’s working harder to make the less torque. The cylinder pressure will be higher on a smaller engine to do the same work. The higher the cylinder pressure is the higher the load is on the rotating assembly.
I hope your wife and kids are all going to be okay! Scary stuff.
With that 408 combo, what kind of stall converter would you need behind that in a truck application? It looks like it had 400+tq under 3000rpm.
2600-2800 would be a great match up
Damn sorry to hear that hope your ok and god be with you
I noticed 1 3/4" headers on both applications, correct? If so, that just goes to show that you can still make killer power without having to go to 1 7/8" or 2" headers with bigger displacement motors.
In my race car racing autocross with at least one 15 MPH hairpin turn per course the 408 would be the one to go with. I run an automatic trans because I barely have room for gas and brake pedals so I lean on the converter a lot coming out of the tight turns.
Sorry you guys were exposed, we're sending TP asap
Stroker for sure, the destroker acts like a rotary
Stroker for the street
Destroked for the drag strip (low gear ratio, high RPM launch)