Bushcraft - Camp Fire with Pot Hanger, Coffee and Day Pack Gear Overview

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  • Опубликовано: 18 сен 2024
  • I took my new backpack to the woods and started a small camp fire and stick pot hanger to make some coffee and chat Bushcraft.
    My Instagram: / taoutdoorofficial
    Tim's Bushcraft site: bluesbushcraftb...
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    #bushcraft #primitive #survival

Комментарии • 232

  • @TAOutdoors
    @TAOutdoors  7 лет назад +30

    I'm a sucker for Backpacks....

    • @_MrOcean
      @_MrOcean 7 лет назад

      Well the link to your backpack is different looking and costs £2,926.82 hahaha

    • @TAOutdoors
      @TAOutdoors  7 лет назад +2

      Had mine over two years and abused the hell out of it and not a single fault in it yet. But the word "Stamina" kind of speaks for itself. I have the Elite 4 sleeping bag too, again great piece of kit. Each to their own I guess

    • @welshbearbushcraft798
      @welshbearbushcraft798 7 лет назад

      TA Outdoors could you link where you had your cup from please.

    • @Ovatione
      @Ovatione 7 лет назад +1

      TA Outdoors This dutch guy is selling them. Ive been searching all morning on dutch army surplus websites. They only have the camo one. This man sells them both and will send them to you. I just bought one from him. A very nice guy

    • @jdoutdoors4502
      @jdoutdoors4502 7 лет назад

      TA, would live to see a full review of your Dutch Military pack. I just ordered one for myself. Looking forward to it arriving from across the pond!

  • @X_explorer
    @X_explorer 6 лет назад

    Fantastic channel! I love observing nature, discover and meditate...

  • @agatagarcia4454
    @agatagarcia4454 3 года назад

    THE BACK PACKS ARE VERY WELL SEWN!!!! REALLY!!!! GOOD BACK PACK!!!

  • @Zedoutdoors
    @Zedoutdoors 7 лет назад +2

    I'm a backpack hoarder too, car boot sales are gold mines for finding army surplus ones dirt cheap. Cracking video Mike and great talk through reg the pot hanger ~Peace~

  • @heariketpocketlegends9303
    @heariketpocketlegends9303 7 лет назад

    i love your videos could watch them all day

  • @starcatcatherinehale1893
    @starcatcatherinehale1893 7 лет назад +3

    is the "dog's bullocks" anything like the "bee's knees" LOL that just killed me :))))

    • @leedavies6779
      @leedavies6779 7 лет назад

      yeah, same meaning :)

    • @affalaffaa
      @affalaffaa 7 лет назад

      Bollocks though, more than bullocks. Basically. Ones just more child (or sensitive ) friendly. The dogs bollocks is a very well known phrase.

    • @1Selous
      @1Selous 7 лет назад

      Starcat Catherine Hale yeh a Brit Army Term, slowly disseminated down to Civi St. Same as top priced gear is known as Gucci Gear lol

  • @JMarcotte1
    @JMarcotte1 4 года назад

    That backpack looks like repurposed, Viet Nam Era, ALICE belts and vinyl reinforced canvas. Looks really good.

  • @trevorpollard5360
    @trevorpollard5360 7 лет назад

    I like the silent intro something different builds up into a good video keep up the work

  • @truthhunters
    @truthhunters 7 лет назад +1

    Yes would love to see a review of all of your backpacks please :-) excellent video!

  • @daveb6
    @daveb6 7 лет назад

    Love the tunes on this video. I think it was the smell that made ancient man think about cooking meat. I know i get hungry when I smell a steak cooking on th coals. CHEERS.

  • @madcat1007
    @madcat1007 3 года назад

    Nice video. A little tip: instead of just one notch in the pot hanger, cut 4 or 5. Then you can adjust the height easily.

  • @Gnomesmusher
    @Gnomesmusher 7 лет назад +7

    One theory I've read is that when they first discovered fires most likely from forest fires, that they'd also come across cooked remains of animals.

  • @tylerbliss1542
    @tylerbliss1542 7 лет назад

    Yet another awesome video! Thanks!

  • @Hockeyfan9884
    @Hockeyfan9884 7 лет назад +2

    I think lighting struck a tree stump , started a fire while the primitive guy caught a fish ,tossed it to his girlfriend, She found it to slippery to hold , tripped in a ground twig , the fish hit the fire, they couldn't catch another so decided to eat the one from in the fire, loved the smoked hot taste and there you have it and the guy didn't get upset with his girl but gave her a hug and kiss. ( i think ).

  • @lonewolfsbushcrafttravels
    @lonewolfsbushcrafttravels 7 лет назад

    Love the gear showed off in your video! Well done video

  • @alangibson5343
    @alangibson5343 7 лет назад

    I think primitive man learnt to cook meat simply through trail and error,something I have thought of myself,really interesting subject... keep the videos coming,I love them!

    • @Evan-st5df
      @Evan-st5df 2 года назад

      Right. Maybe came across an animal that was burned in a forest fire. Would have smelled different, but good. Maybe.

  • @tangentsofinterest9993
    @tangentsofinterest9993 7 лет назад +2

    Definitely need a backpack review video, Mike. I'm always looking out for the perfect pack!

  • @xneara
    @xneara 7 лет назад +2

    Do love a good back pack, let's get some reviews. Un packing episodes for backpacks!

  • @PumpkinVillage
    @PumpkinVillage 7 лет назад

    Another good video. Great content and music selection. Take care, Al

  • @MichaelBrown-hp3tp
    @MichaelBrown-hp3tp 7 лет назад

    Great video and love the music.

  • @prepperinthewoods
    @prepperinthewoods 7 лет назад

    Good tips.

  • @ebbushcraft7835
    @ebbushcraft7835 7 лет назад +3

    Great video! Love the theory time👍

  • @Islandhuntingandoutdoors
    @Islandhuntingandoutdoors 7 лет назад

    That's a sick backpack man

  • @brianspencer4220
    @brianspencer4220 7 лет назад

    Very informative video. Thoughtful bushwork. Thanks Brian 76

  • @mischef18
    @mischef18 7 лет назад

    I heard many years ago that they think the cooking of meat came from the result of a forest fire as there were burned animals left behind and food being so scarce these were eaten and found to be more palatable than raw meat. I guess there are many theories on this but this does make sense to me. Great vid bro. All the best

  • @ellisholcomb2299
    @ellisholcomb2299 7 лет назад

    it's always a good day when your out I'm the same way love being out I can't hike any more but I take my truck and get out I do appreciate you for taking your time to share with us I enjoy watching keep up with your vedoes you take care until next time wish you all the best

  • @bradjakubowski8987
    @bradjakubowski8987 7 лет назад +2

    I also think its super important to leave no trace of your activities in the woods; or anywhere for that matter. Not enough of us practice it unfortunately... whether it be garbage, fire pits, or natural overnight shelters. Be a ghost in the woods.

  • @millbankbagsusa2037
    @millbankbagsusa2037 5 лет назад

    First time watching, as far as man learning to cook meat maybe a chunk fell in a fire and it smelled so good he tried it out and ate it. You can believe what you want but I do think God put that download in our brain to keep us from getting sick. Anyway I like mine with just a touch of pink in it but not red. Nice video and liked your shelter. ray,Oklahoma

  • @epicness7166
    @epicness7166 7 лет назад

    super good video keep
    up the good work

  • @theoutdoorangler1173
    @theoutdoorangler1173 7 лет назад

    Great video. Love it!

  • @joecooper4460
    @joecooper4460 6 лет назад

    I know when the Ancients didn't have fire that their appendix would actually allow them to eat raw meat and not have a problem. Which is why it today are appendix we don't really use so most people get them removed or some people don't have to get them removed. So I believe that is the correct answer for that. I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure. I'm a new subscriber and I love the videos keep them coming bro. Good stuff informative. Good on you

  • @bushcraftnorthof6012
    @bushcraftnorthof6012 7 лет назад

    Too bad your crane won't work up here. All rock! Neat how different regions develop different bushcraft solutions. Take care!

  • @zombiesurvivalvlogs579
    @zombiesurvivalvlogs579 7 лет назад

    Keep up the good work

  • @charlesmandrell3369
    @charlesmandrell3369 7 лет назад +1

    Hi TA, I noticed when you were talking of the webbing on the lid you mentioned carabiners, which is fine but try some alice clips for gear attaching. They will work with different gear items and readily available cheaply. Stay in the dirt mate!

  • @double531
    @double531 7 лет назад

    All good mate, great stuff.

  • @chuckwrathall
    @chuckwrathall 7 лет назад

    Great bushcraft episode man. Always look forward to the new videos. 👌🏻
    A backpack video review is definitely a must.

  • @chuckwrathall
    @chuckwrathall 7 лет назад

    I think TAoutdoors, JoeRobinet and Scrambled-O should all do a whole video impersonating the other person and their homeland style bushcraft.
    For example:
    TAoutdoors -> impersonate Joe and Canadian style bushcraft (moose meat, say eh much as possible, traditional snowshoes, maple syrup, etc)
    Scrambled-o -> impersonate mike and do British style bushcraft & cooking. (British tea & biscuits, accents, etc)
    JoeRobinet -> impersonate scrambled-o and make it as American as possible haha.
    Would love the see all three of these edited together. Might be a possible thought for a future video series for you guys to collaborate on! (All in good fun/educational of course)

  • @gerardriordan712
    @gerardriordan712 5 лет назад

    Great vid...great to see you approach from the woods knowing another epic episode is beginning and sad when you pack up and leave the bushcamp arena...until the next time again...yes!...fab music...fab camera work...fab content...fab followers...
    fab the best...Mike...cheers...

  • @jeremyfoss505
    @jeremyfoss505 7 лет назад

    Thanks mike, after that opening song, now I have to look up and listen to more female vocal trance music lol.

  • @bassackwardsbushcraft8961
    @bassackwardsbushcraft8961 7 лет назад

    Burned bones are much easier to break open to get at the very nutritional marrow.
    Cooking or smoking meat give it a longer shelf life, and dehydrates it, making it lighter/smaller to carry more.

  • @OregonMikeH
    @OregonMikeH 7 лет назад

    I think Yours is a great Theory! My hunch is simplistic, I'm just thinking Fire had to be first primary for warmth after it's discovery. Possibly wanting to ingest the warmth, early man tried simply heating his food, alas discovering cooking? Perhaps, I'll also take this opportunity to let you know that I enjoy your Ch. immensely! Interesting, educational, important and I love the fact that you highlight and film the details so much better then some other sources I've seen. With great respect and appreciation, ... Oregon Mike H "Old timer Sub"

  • @kateandjanasoutdooradventu3553
    @kateandjanasoutdooradventu3553 7 лет назад

    Yes I would love to see the backpacks! :-)

  • @jameslane9918
    @jameslane9918 7 лет назад

    always a good show with you always your friend gym Kansas City Missouri

  • @TheFlatlander440
    @TheFlatlander440 6 лет назад

    They probably discovered cooking meat by accident like most innovations do. Great vid as always Mike, thanks for sharing mate.

  • @jordanwhite7495
    @jordanwhite7495 7 лет назад

    Great vid as usual mate 😆

  • @lappeldelanature5634
    @lappeldelanature5634 7 лет назад

    Oh man I feel ye, I was in such a frenzy about backpacks these days, just ordered one that'll have to show. But damn, yours is awesome, I dunno why but I want military stuff so bad now that i got my old school boyscout pack.
    I'd love to watch other backpacks videos from you... =D

  • @wetkneehouston6293
    @wetkneehouston6293 7 лет назад

    I've had many back packs over the years and finally found a favorite about 2 years ago so I havent brought another since. Theory time was good, that has also popped into my mind on the how did they first create fire theory, I believe their is so many different ways it could have first happened and they probably are all correct.

  • @DannyWalker1949
    @DannyWalker1949 7 лет назад

    Nice video again, I really enjoyed it.
    Now, I think the 0l' Cavemen walked by a Mc Donald's and smelled the Cheeseburger's & Fries and that was All There Was To It! 0-O

  • @VanSolo-uk
    @VanSolo-uk 7 лет назад

    Nice one fella,
    I reckon cooking probably started as a side effect of thawing.

  • @KLEEINBEIN
    @KLEEINBEIN 7 лет назад +1

    that coffee looks watery.. It should be pitch black!

  • @zackgilbert3177
    @zackgilbert3177 5 лет назад

    Dude i bet it would be epic to sit with this cat and smoke one with a nice cup of coffee and have deep intellectual conversations.

  • @stewartrobertson2337
    @stewartrobertson2337 7 лет назад

    bye accident, just the same way guiness invented, it was beer that was burnt bye mistake!!, cheers, Stu.

  • @Frostyeveryday
    @Frostyeveryday 7 лет назад

    I've enjoyed your channel since I've found it! good job from the states!

  • @tropicaldoodad
    @tropicaldoodad 7 лет назад

    Great vid. Need to clean that sensor though, bro.

  • @skippy2752
    @skippy2752 7 лет назад

    Really enjoyed this video. Thanks for taking us along. Each video keeps getting better. Can you tell me where you got your coffee nugs at? Keep up the great work.

    • @TAOutdoors
      @TAOutdoors  7 лет назад

      Do you mean my coffee mug? If so it's a spalted beech Kuksa made for me by Will Canavan. You can find his Facebook page "white head custom crafts"

  • @JosefSvandrlik
    @JosefSvandrlik 7 лет назад

    Very nice channel. I'm going to subscribe ;)

  • @simonhopkins3867
    @simonhopkins3867 7 лет назад

    We would have eaten raw meet and fish. But the opportunity of following a wild fire and just picking up food instead of hunting.
    It's a free lunch ; -)
    I'm on the lookout for a 2/3 day pack so yes please do .

  • @TheLoodlood
    @TheLoodlood 7 лет назад

    Awesome video as usual
    Would love to see a video reviewing all your backpacks

  • @archangel1547
    @archangel1547 5 лет назад

    I know that in medieval times, they believed that the stomach was like a cauldron or a cast iron pot that heated up the food in it to digest it, so cooking the food was a jumpstart to digestion. I dk how far back that knowledge goes but it may be something similar to why ancient people’s cooked their food.

  • @DWs-mp3cb
    @DWs-mp3cb 2 года назад

    Cooking meat to a certain point to help preserve it and also to kill bacteria and increase flavour and to make meats and veg fruits etc softer and easier to chew

  • @ichibaopac2860
    @ichibaopac2860 7 лет назад

    The nutrients in cooked foods are more easily digestible for humans. Eating raw foods actually takes more energy for your body to digest. Fire and cooking food over fire predates homo sapiens, but the question still remains: how did early homonids start cooking over fire? Somehow they must have seen the correlation between cooking foods and disease over time and preffered cooking food. Over many thousands of years, and indead species, our bodies now are less suited for eating raw meats whereas pure carnivores have more acidious stomachs. Interestingly, dogs will prefer cooked meat over raw meat if given the choice, so perhaps it is animal instict?
    It is a pleasure to watch your videos! Keep up the good work.

  • @chewyandjasper
    @chewyandjasper 7 лет назад

    I think maybe they started cooking it to preserve it for longer periods of time .... Just a thought :)

  • @karaski24
    @karaski24 4 года назад

    What are the advantages to a wooden cup/bowl? They look beautiful, but I don’t know that it’s worth the weight. I’m on the fence about getting or making one. Talk me in to it!

  • @KaylynnStrain
    @KaylynnStrain 7 лет назад

    beautiful kuksa, my guess is an accidental fall of meat into the fire but it wasn't completely burnt, would love to see all of your packs, would give people an idea of what people can look for in packs

  • @susandunaway8290
    @susandunaway8290 7 лет назад

    I really like the new backpack! You have some of the coolest gear. And coffee and the outdoors is just a bit of heaven. As to your theory question, maybe they started cooking over the fire because it was cold and, since the fire warmed them, it would be great for warm food. Or it could just be ancient aliens yet again. LOL

  • @benspoliticsandnewsbencook9151
    @benspoliticsandnewsbencook9151 6 лет назад

    If only we had a time machine what we could learn about our primitive hunter gather and nomadic ancestors.

  • @MurrayMelander
    @MurrayMelander 7 лет назад

    I'm curious if you guys ever plant tree's on the property?

  • @Volker12332
    @Volker12332 7 лет назад

    Nice video. Have you ever triedd the medium ALICE Pack? Very comfortable thanks to the frame and 3 pockets in the front that will fit more than a 1 liter Nalgene bottle

  • @timsbushcraftandoutdoors7634
    @timsbushcraftandoutdoors7634 7 лет назад

    Good question about how "cooking" got started. My guess is that it all came by accident. There was a lot of activity around the fire, all day long, and if someone dropped dinner into the fire it might take a minute to get it out of there, long enough to pull out a bit of burnt or smoked meat. Or maybe they found animals burned in forest or grass fires...IDK but a good question! ATB, Tim

  • @mrzombiechop7812
    @mrzombiechop7812 7 лет назад

    have you thought about maybe getting the snugpak ionosphere single person tent?

  • @markfillery1002
    @markfillery1002 6 лет назад

    it works better if you turn the hanger round the other way round

  • @samisalminen1458
    @samisalminen1458 7 лет назад

    subbed!

  • @AdirondackBadger
    @AdirondackBadger 6 лет назад

    I use coconut oil on mine every so often.

  • @sudoroot5457
    @sudoroot5457 2 года назад

    I'm sure the coffee grows in your forest, ready and waiting. You can drink it at home on the balcony from your wooden bucket and don't have to set the forest on fire with your medieval tinder-steel. Embrace the suck

  • @cassieabhram7089
    @cassieabhram7089 7 лет назад

    kewl .....Maybe they were just drying some fish or meat by the fire and it smelt super good , so they had a little nibble .....instantly they all turned into chefs over night and had to invent writing for all the recipes they had just created ......people are kind of pretty obsessed with food , so cooking must have started really early in our development ......mammoth burgers anyone ?....

  • @marcosgimeneztalina
    @marcosgimeneztalina 7 лет назад

    Muito bom

  • @anthonyhayton8
    @anthonyhayton8 7 лет назад

    Can I ask where you go camping. Is it your own land ??
    New subscriber

  • @finbarryan4263
    @finbarryan4263 7 лет назад

    yer the problem is a lot of places have really hard ground like Australia

  • @BH-rx3ue
    @BH-rx3ue 7 лет назад

    Why did they cook food? its the same reason as why everything else was originally done. pure and simple curiosity.

  • @borkthebasher
    @borkthebasher 7 лет назад

    you can absolutely eat meat raw, any meat. fish especially. sushi and sashimi for example. the japanese also eat chicken 'sushi' which is basically chicken thats just seared on the outside and raw in the middle. the fresher the meat the safer it is to do.

  • @Madmuttonbird
    @Madmuttonbird 7 лет назад

    Does Will have a website for the Kuksa Cup.I'd love to get my hands on a large cup like the one you have.
    ATB Mark

  • @pikeoutside728
    @pikeoutside728 7 лет назад

    Buddy, I'm thinking that we slowly evolved into creatures that desired/needed cooked meat. Obviously other carnivores do not cook their meat. But cooked meat is delicious! So when we discovered that and started doing it as a habit, we lost the ability to cope with some of the bacteria in uncooked meat. My thoughts, anyway.

  • @maddybushcraftobk4722
    @maddybushcraftobk4722 7 лет назад

    i will suggest simple wildfires has show the trick of cooking for all and everywhere at the first time-
    Maddy OBK

  • @chess135
    @chess135 7 лет назад +5

    was that a Joe Robinet imitation ;) cup of coffey...

    • @TAOutdoors
      @TAOutdoors  7 лет назад +9

      No that one is on the way lol

    • @chess135
      @chess135 7 лет назад

      cant wait, as he did you. not the best thou but he tried lol.

    • @kevinfraser5179
      @kevinfraser5179 7 лет назад +2

      Joe does not even drink coffee. He needs a manly cup of hot chocolate. With manly marshmallows.

    • @chess135
      @chess135 7 лет назад

      or a cup of tea from his fruity tea dipper lol. no TA needs to do him.

    • @kevinfraser5179
      @kevinfraser5179 7 лет назад +2

      Lol, just a little light-hearted fun. Joe works more than hard enough to deserve his cups of hot chocolate.

  • @PixleTrail
    @PixleTrail 7 лет назад

    Great Video as always I learn a lot from watching them :) I was going to ask about the small firebox you sometimes carry around mainly when you go fishing. I just wanted to know what they're called and where I could get one from as they look like a great piece of equipment to have. The video I saw it in was called "Beach Fishing and BACON!"
    Thanks

    • @PixleTrail
      @PixleTrail 7 лет назад +1

      Ah awesome thank you so much I appreciate it :)

    • @TAOutdoors
      @TAOutdoors  7 лет назад +1

      Yep that's the one :)

  • @doodles954
    @doodles954 7 лет назад

    Did salting and preserving food come before cooking or after

  • @MrHatManS
    @MrHatManS 7 лет назад

    I don't know where you got your oil from, I pick walnut oil up from the supermarket, it goes a long way, and it's relatively cheap.

  • @joepaleafei8619
    @joepaleafei8619 7 лет назад

    Where do you get the leather pouches you have, like for your firestarting kit?

  • @stever7627
    @stever7627 7 лет назад

    4:26 was that a shot at Joe Robinet because of his one video? Haha.

  • @rodney73991
    @rodney73991 7 лет назад

    is there a vedio of make that cup ?

  • @cameron128128
    @cameron128128 7 лет назад

    9:33 around that time in he video there's some like fluff at the top middle of the screen if you look carefully for bits of water on it love the vids btw !

  • @NPCSN
    @NPCSN 4 года назад

    (Ancestor theory)
    Maybe they just wanted it warm, perhaps it froze after they killed it. So they tried to thaw it out over the fire... then tasted the warm cooked part and tasted the difference between the two in the same sample and perhaps it was just a preference at first. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    Got me kind of scratching my head too. Lol

  • @tptangenivy28
    @tptangenivy28 7 лет назад

    what kind of pants (trousers ...lol) are those? New fan, great videos!!

    • @TAOutdoors
      @TAOutdoors  7 лет назад +1

      SomeGuyFromStPaul Pinewood Lappland 👍🏻

  • @leemichel8199
    @leemichel8199 7 лет назад +3

    more like it was freezing back in the day and because the meat was frozen they chucked it in the fire to defrost it and liked the tastes also cos food poisoning was common

  • @jerryeyre
    @jerryeyre 7 лет назад +16

    Most likely primitive man could eat raw food with a different immune system. As others have said the cooking probably came from an accident (wild fire or some other way)

    • @singleman1986
      @singleman1986 7 лет назад +2

      Agreed. I think 'cooked' meat probably first came to our ancestors by accident due to 'natural' fires. Once they realized the 'benefits', of cooked meat, they logically learned to 'harvest' embers/fires, and then learned to preserve the embers while traveling. Once the generations learned to knapp, the sparks led to making fire on their own. JMHO.

    • @oasisbeyond
      @oasisbeyond 7 лет назад +2

      They all learned... snake with fangs... run away or be careful, colored frogs... don't eat... They learned through time like how we know now from our parents, media and everything else.

    • @Diggz11
      @Diggz11 7 лет назад

      Jerry Eyre + it took a lot longer than I thought for the Chinese to figure out and inform the world later than boiling water was healthier than drinking it from a creek or river or puddle or the shit run off down the street.

    • @michaeldean5787
      @michaeldean5787 5 лет назад

      Many people eat raw meat, myself influded (although not exclusively). For many people it has reversed chronic illness. Handy if you don't want to make a fire!

  • @angel-rising208
    @angel-rising208 4 года назад

    Maaate I litro had the same theory thought...I thought..they probs felt the warmth of the fire ..seeing if it would warm that cold meat ..n gradualy done so ..probz didunt cook it properly still tho haha must of took em a few years practice haha

  • @michaelrapino4175
    @michaelrapino4175 7 лет назад

    Hey there. You mentioned that the Billy pot in the video is the 10cm Zebra. Do you have any other sizes? I currently have the 12 and 14cm. I was thinking about getting the 10cm, and was wondering if it is too small. Do you use it on multiple night trips, or just for a day or two?

    • @TAOutdoors
      @TAOutdoors  7 лет назад

      Hi Michael, I've used it on multiple day trips, I would say it is on the small side, but often I do a lot of long distance Hiking and I need to save weight. I would say the 12cm is an ideal all-rounder to be honest.

  • @andystephenson5858
    @andystephenson5858 7 лет назад

    I'd say it's most likely they burned it by accident or found meat that had been burned and realised cooked meat keeps longer than raw meat and just became an efficiency thing. Also cooked meat is easier to digest although to this day Inuit still eat raw fish and meat uncured I believe just semi frozen.

  • @thesamsmith
    @thesamsmith 7 лет назад

    Can we get an updated gear video?

  • @skipandjump
    @skipandjump 7 лет назад

    Got any recommendations for a good beginner budget pack? UK pref!