I like watching pvp videos. It really looks like a lot of fun once you learn, and there’s really nothing like this in any other game. But I’m also beginning to see how meticulously prepared invaders are to have the greatest possible advantage, and the same goes for people who wait for invaders so that they can gank them. I’m kinda just content with being a spectator rather than a participant in pvp. Maybe one day I’ll give it a shot
Instead of considering invading lower levels, what if we brought back the mechanic of being able to invade considerably higher levels like the Blue Eye Orb in DS1? Though admittedly, this may actually make the "Preparedness" argument even worse, since a red has no idea if they're gonna invade a level 40 or 100 build. But, i guess it wouldn't even matter since PW matchmaking is a thing
I was a big fan of this method because it allowed you to be able to make a very effective counter-invader, where you are only going after those who have killed others (unfortunately it also included NPC deaths, so it wasn't perfect). If it was pvp sin-only matching like in DS2, but with the DS1 style upwards focused Blue Eye system, it would be a very good system for hunting sinners. Not only that, but it was a major driver of pvp competition at the time - some players intentionally became sinners or wretches in order to get invaded by more skilled opponents or to get their name in the leaderboards.
Honestly doesn't seem too bad of an idea, as the invaders are typically more build-optimized if they're invading (unless they're a silly billy and goofing off). But on the other hand with OL phantoms, I think this option would effectively stack advantages in the host's favor because of how over leveled phantoms work. If they were actually scaled down hard enough to the host's power level, I think this idea could work.
If they want to protect new players it should be an area based thing. The best solution in my eyes would be limgrave and weeping peninsula be invasion free zones so long as you stay within the confines. It is basically the tutorial zones. The second they make it to Cailed or Luirnia it should open them up to invasions. Or, people can’t participate in multiplayer until they interact with varres quest line. In all reality I see no issue with low level invasions but I think the mechanic should be explained to noobs much better. In elden ring people want to have their cake and eat it too, they want to play co-op with their friends and they don’t understand why they have to be invaded. In ds3 I think the mechanic made the most sense, if you use an ember you get 30% bonus to health and the ability to summon but you can now be invaded. It was very clear that the ember was a powerful tool you could use to get extra health, but it came with a cost of possibly getting invaded. In elden ring a lot of people don’t understand why they have to be invaded if they co-op and I think it’s because they don’t understand the mechanic all the way back to demons souls has always been a pro vs con thing that forces you to make the choice whether or not you need the extra help and whether or not you want to deal with the consequences if you chose to get the extra help. The main issue stems from people who never played souls before Elden ring, they want the game to be able to be some jolly co-op adventure and the multiplayer just isn’t set up to do that and never really has been.
Probably. At the very least, new players are better equipped to deal with invaders at around level 30-40. Additionally, it usually means they've stuck around long enough to make it past Limgrave, suggesting they have enough of an interest in the game to be less put off by a bad invasion.
I really wouldn't want a minimum level for invasions,but I do think it might be interesting to pull from ds2's soul memory to achieve a similar effect. Instead of a hard level limit, a soft limit based off either runes gathered,or even regions entered, but only for a portion of the early levels. This could limit how strong a twink invader can get without completely preventing low level invasions.
i realize the irony of what i'm about to say in light of the fact that perhaps the average joe is playing co op with his level 300 to 700 something elden ring friend who spends money on Big Runes or whatever, but co-op does not INHERENTLY and automatically turn any of these games into a joke, cakewalk, or easy baby mode for infants who can't even hold the controller. of course i can see how it would feel that way if you had two experts who can already handle the challenge alone with no issue just styling on a boss. i've seen a trio stun locking sister friede and orphan. but summoning an NPC doesn't do that. using mimic tear doesn't do that. and neither does a team up of two people who aren't exceedingly comfortable with the game's bosses
I wonder, what if we gave the hosts their power fantasy. Level 15 host summons level 327 friend without down scaling… but the invader is up scaled 1% multiplicative for every level the summon is over the invader. Powerful friend-> powerful fiend. Actually infantilize the host and force them to sit out the dog fight? Do you think that treatment might help them to understand why balancing is important in PvP? I don’t find myself fancying a lower invasion level cap. It’s important for learning invaders to have a training ground like that. Maybe if invasions works like password summoning where you can be any level but will be scaled down to the host? That’ll be rough for clueless hosts though. Tough hypothetical
If the starting classes weren’t good enough to PVP with, it would make sense to have a grace period. However, the starting classes are decent, and there is a NPC invasion 5 minutes into limgrave. Clearly it was in the creators’ vision that players learn PVP mechanics alongside PVE mechanics from the very start. If new players struggle with PVP, then it’s for the same reason that they would struggle with PVE; they’re learning the game and need to get better at playing it. Every death is a learning opportunity. There is no situation where a host will have to deal with more than one invader without TT, whereas all invaders regardless of level will be forced to deal with as many phantoms as the host can summon. Meaning, the worst case scenario for a host is a 1v1 with a twink. If a player is too scared to do a 1v1 at any level, maybe this just isn’t the game for them.
This is definitely something I’ve thought about a lot as well. It’s hard to say what the expected experience should be for hosts and what truly constitutes a reasonable experience given the huge disparities in builds. If anything, I lean toward “all’s fair” and people should embrace the weirdness and wonk. I’m also stuck trying to figure out the most amicable way to get people to willingly engage with PVP and not throw a tantrum. But as you said, for a lot of those people this might not be the game for them.
@ Absolutely, and I mean, the logical conclusion to equality through build parity is to force everyone to have the same exact character selection. At that point it’s just a different flavor of street fighter. I think the unique charm of invasions is that it’s hardly ever going to be a fair fight, so you never know what’s going to happen!
Hot take, weapons do specific percentage damage in pvp e.g. short sword do %5 per hit colossals do %20 regardless of health or stats. This way invaders dish out the same damage to noobs and overlevels as well as receiving the same amount.
That would make vigor a dead stat for pvp, which means optimized invasion builds would have between 20-50 extra levels in more effective stats over normal players who need vigor for pve. In addition, gank squads would become even more egregious since invaders can already get stunlocked by hosts and phantoms blindly spamming together and stacking hitboxes. All-in-all, it would screw over normal players by making the average invader much stronger and screw over invaders by making gank squads even more punishing than they already are.
No this would ruin the idea of builds all together. If you were only making a character to invade you no longer need to worry about your stat investment into your vigor or your damage stats, you would only need to worry about the required stats needed to use whatever you want. Imagine being able to make a lvl 80 build and not needing to put a single point into vigor. You could basically just leave your vigor at whatever it starts with and throw at least 20 points into every other stat and be able to use almost every weapon in the game.
I like watching pvp videos. It really looks like a lot of fun once you learn, and there’s really nothing like this in any other game. But I’m also beginning to see how meticulously prepared invaders are to have the greatest possible advantage, and the same goes for people who wait for invaders so that they can gank them. I’m kinda just content with being a spectator rather than a participant in pvp. Maybe one day I’ll give it a shot
Give Dank souls 3 a try. Elden ring is the better game, but Dank Souls 3 is a better multiplayer/pvp game.
Now that’s a question I’ve never asked myself. I’ll have to put time into formulating an opinion
Instead of considering invading lower levels, what if we brought back the mechanic of being able to invade considerably higher levels like the Blue Eye Orb in DS1? Though admittedly, this may actually make the "Preparedness" argument even worse, since a red has no idea if they're gonna invade a level 40 or 100 build. But, i guess it wouldn't even matter since PW matchmaking is a thing
I was a big fan of this method because it allowed you to be able to make a very effective counter-invader, where you are only going after those who have killed others (unfortunately it also included NPC deaths, so it wasn't perfect).
If it was pvp sin-only matching like in DS2, but with the DS1 style upwards focused Blue Eye system, it would be a very good system for hunting sinners.
Not only that, but it was a major driver of pvp competition at the time - some players intentionally became sinners or wretches in order to get invaded by more skilled opponents or to get their name in the leaderboards.
Honestly doesn't seem too bad of an idea, as the invaders are typically more build-optimized if they're invading (unless they're a silly billy and goofing off).
But on the other hand with OL phantoms, I think this option would effectively stack advantages in the host's favor because of how over leveled phantoms work.
If they were actually scaled down hard enough to the host's power level, I think this idea could work.
If they want to protect new players it should be an area based thing. The best solution in my eyes would be limgrave and weeping peninsula be invasion free zones so long as you stay within the confines. It is basically the tutorial zones. The second they make it to Cailed or Luirnia it should open them up to invasions. Or, people can’t participate in multiplayer until they interact with varres quest line.
In all reality I see no issue with low level invasions but I think the mechanic should be explained to noobs much better. In elden ring people want to have their cake and eat it too, they want to play co-op with their friends and they don’t understand why they have to be invaded. In ds3 I think the mechanic made the most sense, if you use an ember you get 30% bonus to health and the ability to summon but you can now be invaded. It was very clear that the ember was a powerful tool you could use to get extra health, but it came with a cost of possibly getting invaded. In elden ring a lot of people don’t understand why they have to be invaded if they co-op and I think it’s because they don’t understand the mechanic all the way back to demons souls has always been a pro vs con thing that forces you to make the choice whether or not you need the extra help and whether or not you want to deal with the consequences if you chose to get the extra help. The main issue stems from people who never played souls before Elden ring, they want the game to be able to be some jolly co-op adventure and the multiplayer just isn’t set up to do that and never really has been.
Probably. At the very least, new players are better equipped to deal with invaders at around level 30-40. Additionally, it usually means they've stuck around long enough to make it past Limgrave, suggesting they have enough of an interest in the game to be less put off by a bad invasion.
I really wouldn't want a minimum level for invasions,but I do think it might be interesting to pull from ds2's soul memory to achieve a similar effect.
Instead of a hard level limit, a soft limit based off either runes gathered,or even regions entered, but only for a portion of the early levels. This could limit how strong a twink invader can get without completely preventing low level invasions.
i realize the irony of what i'm about to say in light of the fact that perhaps the average joe is playing co op with his level 300 to 700 something elden ring friend who spends money on Big Runes or whatever, but co-op does not INHERENTLY and automatically turn any of these games into a joke, cakewalk, or easy baby mode for infants who can't even hold the controller. of course i can see how it would feel that way if you had two experts who can already handle the challenge alone with no issue just styling on a boss. i've seen a trio stun locking sister friede and orphan. but summoning an NPC doesn't do that. using mimic tear doesn't do that. and neither does a team up of two people who aren't exceedingly comfortable with the game's bosses
I wonder, what if we gave the hosts their power fantasy. Level 15 host summons level 327 friend without down scaling… but the invader is up scaled 1% multiplicative for every level the summon is over the invader. Powerful friend-> powerful fiend. Actually infantilize the host and force them to sit out the dog fight? Do you think that treatment might help them to understand why balancing is important in PvP?
I don’t find myself fancying a lower invasion level cap. It’s important for learning invaders to have a training ground like that. Maybe if invasions works like password summoning where you can be any level but will be scaled down to the host? That’ll be rough for clueless hosts though. Tough hypothetical
If the starting classes weren’t good enough to PVP with, it would make sense to have a grace period. However, the starting classes are decent, and there is a NPC invasion 5 minutes into limgrave. Clearly it was in the creators’ vision that players learn PVP mechanics alongside PVE mechanics from the very start.
If new players struggle with PVP, then it’s for the same reason that they would struggle with PVE; they’re learning the game and need to get better at playing it. Every death is a learning opportunity.
There is no situation where a host will have to deal with more than one invader without TT, whereas all invaders regardless of level will be forced to deal with as many phantoms as the host can summon. Meaning, the worst case scenario for a host is a 1v1 with a twink.
If a player is too scared to do a 1v1 at any level, maybe this just isn’t the game for them.
This is definitely something I’ve thought about a lot as well. It’s hard to say what the expected experience should be for hosts and what truly constitutes a reasonable experience given the huge disparities in builds.
If anything, I lean toward “all’s fair” and people should embrace the weirdness and wonk. I’m also stuck trying to figure out the most amicable way to get people to willingly engage with PVP and not throw a tantrum. But as you said, for a lot of those people this might not be the game for them.
@ Absolutely, and I mean, the logical conclusion to equality through build parity is to force everyone to have the same exact character selection. At that point it’s just a different flavor of street fighter. I think the unique charm of invasions is that it’s hardly ever going to be a fair fight, so you never know what’s going to happen!
No.
Hot take, weapons do specific percentage damage in pvp e.g. short sword do %5 per hit colossals do %20 regardless of health or stats.
This way invaders dish out the same damage to noobs and overlevels as well as receiving the same amount.
Bleed build
That would make vigor a dead stat for pvp, which means optimized invasion builds would have between 20-50 extra levels in more effective stats over normal players who need vigor for pve. In addition, gank squads would become even more egregious since invaders can already get stunlocked by hosts and phantoms blindly spamming together and stacking hitboxes.
All-in-all, it would screw over normal players by making the average invader much stronger and screw over invaders by making gank squads even more punishing than they already are.
No this would ruin the idea of builds all together. If you were only making a character to invade you no longer need to worry about your stat investment into your vigor or your damage stats, you would only need to worry about the required stats needed to use whatever you want. Imagine being able to make a lvl 80 build and not needing to put a single point into vigor. You could basically just leave your vigor at whatever it starts with and throw at least 20 points into every other stat and be able to use almost every weapon in the game.