You could just tell Elder God was stewing with anger over the level of back sass coming from Raziel, it was if he was like, “how dare this lowly insect speak to me in such a way”
I disagree. The elder god doesn't seem to like it when raziel insults him or disobeys him. He's to big to let some one as small as raziel to belittle him. He would have definitely rubbed his past selfs action on him. Or laugh at him, giving an ominous warning.
The sheer amount of confidence in Raziel here was much stronger because of Janos' death. This might have been the most noble we've seen him, and it's pretty cool. :) Add to the fact that the Elder God didn't have shit to say either is great. Lol
Wooo Joudas himself answered... lemmie say your a god send man, I was able to listen at work on my MP3 and learn a lot more. Now the Elder God seems the most likely choice, the thing that gets me is when Raziel says. " I wonder old one, did you truly resurrect me." The Elder God never denied anything Raziel said after that. He stayed silent like " Crap he figured it out." Kinda thing.
We don't know - it's never confirmed or disproved. We know the Elder God is capable of resurrecting people (see: Moebius), however, and the fact that Raziel was changed so much upon his rebirth, and that his new form benefits the Elder God directly (claiming souls for him) lends credence to the Elder God's claim.
I think fate/destiny/history ordained Raziel to become the soul inside the Reaver that is why he became what he is and the Elder God lied that he resurrected him.
TBH in early Defiance it would have been funny for Raz to call EG a liar after every sentence... EG......waffle waffle waffle Raz: LIES EG.....waffle Raz: LIES ...repeat for 500 years until the EG throws him out of Spectral just to shut him up
It's certainly a possibility - the issue is never really revisited with anything more then a passing comment, so we may well never know. It could be that it was meant to be left a mystery for some future title that was never released.
Perhaps being the highest-born of a dark Balance Guardian has it's perks. Since he grew wings, he's probably got some kind of power from the Ancient Vampires. Perhaps he consumed the blood of Vorador when Kain sent Raziel to kill the Ancient Vampires. Some time during Kain's Empire, Vorador would've probably incited a kind of secessionism within the vampires, so Kain sends Raziel to dispatch his "old friend". That'd probably be what LoK: Prodigal Sons (a fan game) would be about...
i think that what raziel thinks is true: the elder god was just there when he came back to life. it was raziel's destiny to become the soul reaver, so because it is written in history, he couldn't NOT die there. I think that kain simply killed raziel when he got wings, knowing that those wings would help him become the soul reaver, give raziel a reason to fight.
I think so too. The death of Raziel was a paradox too great, so it was expelled by history. Instead of dying in minutes, he was tormented for centuries, and this changed his appearance on the soul level. This torment also removed any pieces of his body he no longer needed and gave him a half-Hyldenish appearance. As for Kain throwing him into the abyss: the wings were the sign which showed him it was time to continue with their destinies. He hated having to do it, but history would have compelled him to do it regardless. He is the type to accept his role by fate willingly as opposed to being forced into it.
@bobmegee I really hate RUclips's new comments system; tries to be too much like twitter and fails at it. Very hard to see who's replying to what. Nonetheless, the immunity to water, he gained when he consumed Rahab's soul in SR1.
I know I'm probably wrong but I always felt the mass from blood omen 2 was the elder God seeing as he is no where to be seen in the game but was always a key part in the vampires religion it made sense that after the time line was altered and the hilden had the vampires on the ropes that they would use there own God as a weapon to eradicate humans and vampire alike
kain dropped raziel into the EG's lap on purpose, knowing the elder god would use him, so that he would go to the past and reveal everything, thats how kain knew that raziel could resist his destiny. he knew raziel was the reaver somehow (probably from those time portals he did say he's seen their destinies) so he did what HIS destiny for told. confusing yes. raziel's destiny was to be both the hylden savior and the vampire's hero (actually his weapon). thats my guess though.
Well, in Defiance, Raziel almost defeated the Hylden-possessed Janos, and Janos was surely stronger than Vorador, wasn't he? I think Raz coulda taken out Vorador.
Why, why didn't Raziel simply die when cast into the abyss ? I don't get it, he was just a Vampire back then, others of his kind had perish in the lake, why not him ?
Raziel was always meant ot be the spirit inside the reaver, since you see that the reaver as we know already existed before hewas executed, you can infer that Raziel cannot perish until he can be absorbed by the blade. so in a sense, Causality is the reason why Raziel didnt die in the abyss.
@@Teixas666 of course I understand how causality brought him to the pre-kain Reaver, but what I don't understand is how. It's explained in SR2 that you can change History by introducing a paradox. So in theory, there could be a reality where Raziem doesn't become the Reaver's soul.
@@Onewingerdraven there is, but due to what we know by the end of it it would be a timeline where one of 2 things would happen(likely both). 1: Raziel Never Became a Vampire, this would in turn mean Raziel also never became a Wraith and couldnt take part of executing his human self nor be absorbed by the reaver after the act.The "Soul" reaver never Existed as a result.(Paradox) 2 : The Reaver Was never forged: this would be the only way for Wraith Raziel to avoid his ultimate fate but this would also mean Janos would not be around either(he says it himself as his duty was what kept him from gonig the same route as the other ancients). Without Janos to be eventually killed by the sarafan there is no Heart of Darkness ot Raise Kain with jeopardizing any event where Vampire Kain was present..including Raising Raziel.(Paradox) Both outcomes violate the cyclical nature of the timeline.
The answer is given by Kain in SR 2, the future segment with the stomach joke. He says that if the paradox is too great, history will simply expel it instead. In this sense, Raziel dying was expelled from history. To save Raziel from the Reaver, the only possible ways are 2: -Ensure the Reaver is never created, or enchanted, but this would derail the whole of history. -The Reaver is destroyed sometime soon after Raziel enters it. Before he eventually goes mad. This is also iffy, since Kain has to ensure that the Reaver follows its entire history up to being destroyed by attacking Raziel himself(SR1). We are talking millennia now. There is a chance that Raziel goes mad because of the corruption, and this time he won't because of the purification. Kain changed the timeline in the end of SR2, but this only extended the full loop of the Reaver's history. Originally it went like this, I think: 1. Created by Vorador and enchanted by the Ancients 2. Taken by Sarafan Raziel and later used to absorb vampire Raziel 3. Moebius takes it to William the Just for the first paradox, 20 years before Kain is born 4. The broken sword is repaired by Raziel, then used to kill Kain, around when Kain is born 5. The sword then goes to Avernus for Kain to take for himself(BO1, aged 30) 6. This version stays in Kain until it is destroyed in Raziel. This combines the oldest and youngest versions of his soul. 7. We follow the loop in SR2 Kain's paradox extended the loop, but the exact details are still up for debate: 1. Created by Vorador and enchanted by the Ancients 2. Taken by Sarafan Raziel and later fails to absorb Raziel in the Sarafan Era. This Blood Reaver stays in Kain for Defiance 3. Purified Raziel enters the Reaver in the Blood Omen Era, soon after the Pillars collapsed 4. Elder Kain has yet to go through the last part of his story 5. Maybe Kain leaves the Reaver to Moebius for the William part of their history 6. Steps 3, 4, and 5 from the above loop without Elder Kain dying 7. Blood Omen 2 8. Soul Reaver 1? Cannot be confirmed as this should not occur in a restored Nosgoth. Also, Young Kain may do some more shit before the SR Era As the last game intended to play Elder and Younger Kain, we cannot complete the above loop as it is. It is also possible for more time travel and paradoxes to occur before Nosgoth is truly restored.
Yes. We don't know how He really looks like or why did He created this imperfect world in the first place. Why would a perfect being create something when it is complete in and out itself?
they hint at a possible reason why raziel could have just woken up at the beginning of SR1 when the elder god says about how a vampires soul "stagnates in their wrteched corpses" we know kains brood of vampires can be resurrected and even gain soul devouring capabilities themselves as soon as the cause of death is removed from their bodies. so perhaps raziels body just reached a stage where the water couldnt harm it any more or maybe just his "soul" grew in power without the slaugh eating him
@dalmurja false ...kain did not know about raziel's destiny when he tried to kill him....he later used the time streaming chambers to seea his own future ....and then he found out about raziel!
That's because he gets bigger and bigger the more souls he get. In the present he's already large, in the future he's even bigger but since this is the past he's way smaller than he was in the present.
Its implied its true He just happened to find raziel in his current state,, for some reason linked to the EG as a Soul consumer(EG gets s share fo any souls Raziel consumes)
this is also becasue the games and lore show that any vampire let ot languish in the spectrla realm long enough eventually becomes a wraith(ie: Dumah) so its more of Raziel's ressurection was an inevitability
The one time the Elder God is silent after Raziel's backtalk. And it said so much....
You could just tell Elder God was stewing with anger over the level of back sass coming from Raziel, it was if he was like, “how dare this lowly insect speak to me in such a way”
I disagree. The elder god doesn't seem to like it when raziel insults him or disobeys him. He's to big to let some one as small as raziel to belittle him. He would have definitely rubbed his past selfs action on him. Or laugh at him, giving an ominous warning.
The sheer amount of *_BURN_* in this single piece of dialogue, my god...
Raziel's growth in Soul Reaver 2 and Defiance is amazing.
Tony Jay is just magnificent.
The sheer amount of confidence in Raziel here was much stronger because of Janos' death. This might have been the most noble we've seen him, and it's pretty cool. :) Add to the fact that the Elder God didn't have shit to say either is great. Lol
Wooo Joudas himself answered... lemmie say your a god send man, I was able to listen at work on my MP3 and learn a lot more. Now the Elder God seems the most likely choice, the thing that gets me is when Raziel says. " I wonder old one, did you truly resurrect me." The Elder God never denied anything Raziel said after that. He stayed silent like " Crap he figured it out." Kinda thing.
Tony Jay was such a great actor
We don't know - it's never confirmed or disproved. We know the Elder God is capable of resurrecting people (see: Moebius), however, and the fact that Raziel was changed so much upon his rebirth, and that his new form benefits the Elder God directly (claiming souls for him) lends credence to the Elder God's claim.
I think fate/destiny/history ordained Raziel to become the soul inside the Reaver that is why he became what he is and the Elder God lied that he resurrected him.
just as Kain was chosen unwillingly the be the balance guardian, so did Raziel was chosen to be his right hand ... his sword.
hes the vampire jesus.
TBH in early Defiance it would have been funny for Raz to call EG a liar after every sentence...
EG......waffle waffle waffle Raz: LIES
EG.....waffle Raz: LIES
...repeat for 500 years until the EG throws him out of Spectral just to shut him up
Cronologically, this was the first time they spoke.
I still maintain Raz shoulda mentioned meeting Ariel 1000 years or so later when he met her in SR2 just to be mean :D
It's certainly a possibility - the issue is never really revisited with anything more then a passing comment, so we may well never know. It could be that it was meant to be left a mystery for some future title that was never released.
Perhaps being the highest-born of a dark Balance Guardian has it's perks. Since he grew wings, he's probably got some kind of power from the Ancient Vampires. Perhaps he consumed the blood of Vorador when Kain sent Raziel to kill the Ancient Vampires.
Some time during Kain's Empire, Vorador would've probably incited a kind of secessionism within the vampires, so Kain sends Raziel to dispatch his "old friend".
That'd probably be what LoK: Prodigal Sons (a fan game) would be about...
Vorador was long dead when Kain created his empire, the Events of BO dictate so
i think that what raziel thinks is true: the elder god was just there when he came back to life. it was raziel's destiny to become the soul reaver, so because it is written in history, he couldn't NOT die there. I think that kain simply killed raziel when he got wings, knowing that those wings would help him become the soul reaver, give raziel a reason to fight.
I think so too. The death of Raziel was a paradox too great, so it was expelled by history. Instead of dying in minutes, he was tormented for centuries, and this changed his appearance on the soul level. This torment also removed any pieces of his body he no longer needed and gave him a half-Hyldenish appearance.
As for Kain throwing him into the abyss: the wings were the sign which showed him it was time to continue with their destinies. He hated having to do it, but history would have compelled him to do it regardless. He is the type to accept his role by fate willingly as opposed to being forced into it.
Amen.
He merely got his ass handed to him. The final fate of the Elder God is yet to be decided. What move Kain makes next, we don't yet know.
I wonder why we wonder so much...
@bobmegee yeah, but that would make any revived vampire a free-willed champion
@bobmegee I really hate RUclips's new comments system; tries to be too much like twitter and fails at it. Very hard to see who's replying to what. Nonetheless, the immunity to water, he gained when he consumed Rahab's soul in SR1.
Sorry, I meant ancient Vampire.
@OriginalZero kain didnt knew raziel would become a soul reaver ....
I know I'm probably wrong but I always felt the mass from blood omen 2 was the elder God seeing as he is no where to be seen in the game but was always a key part in the vampires religion it made sense that after the time line was altered and the hilden had the vampires on the ropes that they would use there own God as a weapon to eradicate humans and vampire alike
Yeah,...no.
kain dropped raziel into the EG's lap on purpose, knowing the elder god would use him, so that he would go to the past and reveal everything, thats how kain knew that raziel could resist his destiny. he knew raziel was the reaver somehow (probably from those time portals he did say he's seen their destinies) so he did what HIS destiny for told. confusing yes. raziel's destiny was to be both the hylden savior and the vampire's hero (actually his weapon). thats my guess though.
Kain wasnt aware of the Eg's existance, his only reference to the EG is knowing of the wheel of Fate
Doesn't that suck! And I don't mean literally!
That damn overgrown squid has to go!
Well, in Defiance, Raziel almost defeated the Hylden-possessed Janos, and Janos was surely stronger than Vorador, wasn't he? I think Raz coulda taken out Vorador.
Why, why didn't Raziel simply die when cast into the abyss ? I don't get it, he was just a Vampire back then, others of his kind had perish in the lake, why not him ?
Raziel was always meant ot be the spirit inside the reaver, since you see that the reaver as we know already existed before hewas executed, you can infer that Raziel cannot perish until he can be absorbed by the blade.
so in a sense, Causality is the reason why Raziel didnt die in the abyss.
@@Teixas666 of course I understand how causality brought him to the pre-kain Reaver, but what I don't understand is how. It's explained in SR2 that you can change History by introducing a paradox. So in theory, there could be a reality where Raziem doesn't become the Reaver's soul.
@@Onewingerdraven there is, but due to what we know by the end of it it would be a timeline where one of 2 things would happen(likely both).
1: Raziel Never Became a Vampire, this would in turn mean Raziel also never became a Wraith and couldnt take part of executing his human self nor be absorbed by the reaver after the act.The "Soul" reaver never Existed as a result.(Paradox)
2 : The Reaver Was never forged: this would be the only way for Wraith Raziel to avoid his ultimate fate but this would also mean Janos would not be around either(he says it himself as his duty was what kept him from gonig the same route as the other ancients).
Without Janos to be eventually killed by the sarafan there is no Heart of Darkness ot Raise Kain with jeopardizing any event where Vampire Kain was present..including Raising Raziel.(Paradox)
Both outcomes violate the cyclical nature of the timeline.
@@Teixas666 wow, I never thought of it this way. This is both clearer and more confused :') thanks !
The answer is given by Kain in SR 2, the future segment with the stomach joke. He says that if the paradox is too great, history will simply expel it instead. In this sense, Raziel dying was expelled from history.
To save Raziel from the Reaver, the only possible ways are 2:
-Ensure the Reaver is never created, or enchanted, but this would derail the whole of history.
-The Reaver is destroyed sometime soon after Raziel enters it. Before he eventually goes mad. This is also iffy, since Kain has to ensure that the Reaver follows its entire history up to being destroyed by attacking Raziel himself(SR1). We are talking millennia now. There is a chance that Raziel goes mad because of the corruption, and this time he won't because of the purification.
Kain changed the timeline in the end of SR2, but this only extended the full loop of the Reaver's history.
Originally it went like this, I think:
1. Created by Vorador and enchanted by the Ancients
2. Taken by Sarafan Raziel and later used to absorb vampire Raziel
3. Moebius takes it to William the Just for the first paradox, 20 years before Kain is born
4. The broken sword is repaired by Raziel, then used to kill Kain, around when Kain is born
5. The sword then goes to Avernus for Kain to take for himself(BO1, aged 30)
6. This version stays in Kain until it is destroyed in Raziel. This combines the oldest and youngest versions of his soul.
7. We follow the loop in SR2
Kain's paradox extended the loop, but the exact details are still up for debate:
1. Created by Vorador and enchanted by the Ancients
2. Taken by Sarafan Raziel and later fails to absorb Raziel in the Sarafan Era. This Blood Reaver stays in Kain for Defiance
3. Purified Raziel enters the Reaver in the Blood Omen Era, soon after the Pillars collapsed
4. Elder Kain has yet to go through the last part of his story
5. Maybe Kain leaves the Reaver to Moebius for the William part of their history
6. Steps 3, 4, and 5 from the above loop without Elder Kain dying
7. Blood Omen 2
8. Soul Reaver 1? Cannot be confirmed as this should not occur in a restored Nosgoth. Also, Young Kain may do some more shit before the SR Era
As the last game intended to play Elder and Younger Kain, we cannot complete the above loop as it is. It is also possible for more time travel and paradoxes to occur before Nosgoth is truly restored.
Wrekt
Elder God is the biblical YHWH
Yes. We don't know how He really looks like or why did He created this imperfect world in the first place. Why would a perfect being create something when it is complete in and out itself?
they hint at a possible reason why raziel could have just woken up at the beginning of SR1 when the elder god says about how a vampires soul "stagnates in their wrteched corpses" we know kains brood of vampires can be resurrected and even gain soul devouring capabilities themselves as soon as the cause of death is removed from their bodies. so perhaps raziels body just reached a stage where the water couldnt harm it any more or maybe just his "soul" grew in power without the slaugh eating him
@dalmurja false ...kain did not know about raziel's destiny when he tried to kill him....he later used the time streaming chambers to seea his own future ....and then he found out about raziel!
Is it my imagination or does he have lesser eyes in this scene?
That's because he gets bigger and bigger the more souls he get. In the present he's already large, in the future he's even bigger but since this is the past he's way smaller than he was in the present.
So when Raziel makes this accusation about the Elder God just finding him and not being responsible for the resurrection itself, is that accurate?
Its implied its true
He just happened to find raziel in his current state,, for some reason linked to the EG as a Soul consumer(EG gets s share fo any souls Raziel consumes)
this is also becasue the games and lore show that any vampire let ot languish in the spectrla realm long enough eventually becomes a wraith(ie: Dumah)
so its more of Raziel's ressurection was an inevitability
Razielo finally grows some brass... you know what I mean.
I do indeed know what you mean.
NEVER!!!!
Raziel can't do any of that because his attacks have no effect on the "Elder God"... Although, It is awesome that he dies
*dance*
stupid squid...