@@nobodycares9186 Probably as even in real life navies, what a battlecruiser is vs a large cruiser or even if it's a fast battleship. Which are can be used to describe the Prometheus class.
I couldn't help but find it interesting that the state of Star Fleet (and other major Star Trek powers) in TNG seemed to match up so well against the developments in real life navies from the ironclad era to the world wars. And totally by accident. I will look forward to what you guys come up with (or maybe just try to survive) with cruisers. Maybe best put them into sub-classes. The Constitution class was supposed to be a heavy cruiser and the Miranda class a light cruiser in the movie era - I would probably start from there. Battleships will be interesting (especially since it is something that the Federation would never allow Star Fleet to have if they were honest about what its purpose really is).
Drach: "We do see destroyers getting large, with modern examples in the ten- to fifteen thousand tonne range" *Laughs in Izumo-class "Helicopter Destroyer"*
However, the destroyers of the this era are like the battleships of the 20th century due to the role as the main capital ship as well as their heavy powerful, ex. the US Navy's Arleigh Burke class have more firepower than a Worls War 2 battleship.
To be fair the better translation would be something like " trade protection aviation vessel" which is a pretty good descriptor of what is essentially an escort carrier.
My take on the real life equivalent Star Trek's Submarine warfare is that that the only power to truly adopt it were the Romulans. However, they followed the concept of the cruiser sub. Where you produce a rather large submersible craft armed with high caliber guns, the most famous example being the French submarine Surcouf
Captain Pike said in "The Cage" that he had a crew of about 200. Half the cannon established laster in TOS of 400. Always figured Pike was only hauling around the people needed to run the ship. But for Kirk's mission, there were a lot of mission specialists added.
Makes sense. That was years before Scotty had the automation set up to run the Enterprise with “a chimpanzee and two trainees”, and even then that wasn’t meant for more than like a week of going on their own.
That would also explain why the crew quarters were so much bigger for strange new worlds. With shorter several month-long missions, they brought less people and had more room for crew quarters.
@@marcuspacheco3815no that's due to the show runners and mechanical designers decided to increase the size of the Enterprise as to "not make the Enterprise look small compared to the Discovery". They didn't need to upscale the ship to Excelsior size. Nor change the proportions.
I was already a fan of Drachinifel. This is a great collaberation! The frigates in the Age of Sail were the equivalent of more modern cruisers. They were the smallest ship capable of independent transoceanic action. With this in mind, I would argue that is what distinguishes cruisers from smaller vessels is that they are capable of long range independent action. Even the destroyers that accompanied the fleets pre-WW I, and WW II, needed support from the fleet auxilary vessels. With this in mind I would like to suggest that the Intrepid was a light cruiser while the Equinox was the equivalent of a modern frigate. The modern frigate had the range, but not the speed or firepower for independent action. Not sure if you will adress this in part II, but I always felt that in STOS and maybe early ST:NG, the starships fought in a way you would expect of capital ships. Later, the capital ship fights started to resemble aerial dogfights. I suspect this was to get in more action in a small screen.
In TOS other than the shields thing are similar to submarine battles as it's all based on sensor readings not visuals. In later series it's a mix of dogfighting and nelsonian navel tactics.
@@barrybend7189 Technically, even with Nelson, you do not have these swooping maneuvers of dogfights. The ships were not capable of them. True, the line formation was no longer the "Law of God", but the individual maneuvers (which were glacially slow by modern standards) were mainly to close and board, not to gain advantageous firing positions or avoid being fired upon. In the Star Trek later series, it apears the ships all break formation and dive in, at least to me
The Star Trek original series episode Balance of Terror was very similar to a 1957 movie The Enemy Below. The movie was about a conflict between an American destroyer and a U-boat with each captain trying to outguess the other. The Star Trek episode involved Enterprise trying to find and destroy a cloaked Romulus ship.
I very much enjoyed your guest’s post on French pre-dreadnought battleships, A period rarely covered and a love of mine since my father gave me my first Jane’s. It is fitting I find Drachinifel with brother Venom, as you both exemplify the technical precision of Jane’s combined with a story that has you smelling the cosmoline & cordite while feeling her at warp 8 by the thrumming of the deck plates, past and future through and through. Thank you gentlemen.
This is indeed quite the delight to finally see between the two of you. The notion that Star Trek starships (at least in the 24th century) are most similar to 1890s/early-1900s ship design is a fascinating analysis, one that also can be further backed up by how in most Beta canon depictions of the 25th century, true space-base carries make a debut with the likes of the Jupiter & Vo'Quv. (I wonder if that will be brought up). Also, the mention of how without the extra science stuff, these smaller vessels only need a few dozen people at most to crew does show the true advancements in the level of automation in Star Trek vessels. It is fascinating in all the ways these designations line up, even in ways that were likely unintentional. I look forward to future parts of this discussion when big guns are being brought in.
With the BoP and torp usage swapping to disruptors, it may be that shield tech improved to a point where that tactic was no longer effective. Common theme of the ST games is that torps are for lightly shielded or non shielded targets, energy weapons for taking down shields
This adds so much possible lore to the ships and the fleets of ST. Loved the "Maquis is a kind of proving ground" idea. Now there *could* be a prequel to Voyager. ;)
The Klingon Empire places an extreme premium on personal honor and combat, on proving oneself. It makes sense, with all those Houses vying for power, for a lot of cheaply build ships to be available for every noble's son who wants to prove himself. In that case you wind up with a fleet filled to the brim with old, inexpensive, constantly updated Birds of Prey with captains of varying skills. This might also explain why the Klingons don't seem to make new designs or experimental ships often: The low price and mass production availability is the most important thing for them.
No it doesn't, the Klingon empire requires you provide a stamped addressed envelope if you wish to highlight any particular problematic enquiry you have regarding their inter galactic goings on, their help line number is just as obtuse in my experience 😑
With the modular saucer theory...I'd actually believe that, wouldn't the easiest way of designing a ship be using what works on older designs and experiment until you get something better. Which even with my limited knowledge of ship design is fundmentally how designing alot of things worked.
Best damn collaboration I ever saw. Drachnifel is second to none about historical naval warfare. Simply amazing to see you the both of you collab. This ought to happen more. Thank you.
OMG, i now have the head cannon of relatable ship era's. Oh that would make the ambassador, consolation, nebula, galaxy as treaty era ships. Thats perfect because those ships have alot of bite but are EXTREMELY compromised designs.
🖖😎👍Very cool and very nicely well done and very informatively executed and explained indeed guys, On all the various types of fighting ships with in the Startrek universe indeed👌.
Great colaboration dudes, your content and personalities do couple in perfect way. Your ideas and point of view are usually between smart and wise on my scale.
I just recently started getting into star trek again and found your channel, but have been following Drach for a couple years now, so its great to see the collab
This is so awesome, Drachinifel: on your channel!!!!!!!!!! I learned so much about pre-dreadnought and other battleships from Drachinifel's channel!!!!!
There is a bit in Star Trek III where the Klingon bird of prey uses its disruptors: When they receive the data on the Genesis device from those black market traders (at least that's how they come across in the movie) and then blow their ship to bits rather than pay for it, the BoP uses its wingtip mounted disruptor cannons rather than the nose mounted torpedo launcher.
Ive tried mappng out and defining sci fi ship classes in the past compared to different time periods. Its interesting to realize there are very different types of classification in the age of Sail. There is classification based on hull type: with characteristics leaning towards speed and cargo space etc. Something might be called a frigate if its fast, or a merchantman if it holds a lot of cargo. Then there is classification based on propulsion: sail rigging, number of sails, steam wheels etc. Like Yawl, Ketch, Schooner, etc. Then a more regular classification would be the gun number rating, 1st Rate, 2nd Rate, Frigate with single gun deck. Then finally in more modern times classification based on role. Cruiser, battlecruiser, destroyer. There are quite a few overlaps, but its interesting to classify scifi ships in different methods such as propulsion or role.
With regard to Mirandas during the Dominion War, in many scenes the ships have an impulse engine glow on the back of the tactical pod. It would seem that the Federation built (or perhaps converted) pods with impulse engines replacing the aft firing torpedoes that were present on the Reliant. This fits nicely with the idea that the Mirandas were utilized in the fast attack ship role during the Dominion War. In my head canon, these are what Sisko was referring to when he says "Destroyer wing"
Funny thing about how Frigates are often testbeds for experimental weaponry or equipment, the modern US Navy had just retired its Perry Class, then they had a laser weapon that was at the ship mountable stage that they wanted to test, so instead of a Frigate, they slap it on an old transport, the USS Ponce!
I really enjoyed listening to your speculation on ship classes compared with historic examples. I can see this becoming a podcast like series which I would be down for
Actually, in Star Trek 3: The Search For Spock, Kruge's Bird-of-Prey uses the disruptor cannons at the tips of its wings on the merchantman that was carrying the klingon spy. However, said merchantman would have been a relatively "soft target" while its torpedoes (the look is all wrong for a photon torpedo so I always thought they were some kind of miniaturized adaptation of the Romulan plasma torpedo from "Balance of Terror") would be reserved for bigger and tougher prey.
The part about the Breen energy dampening weapon reminded me of one of the mayor plot point of "On Basilisk Station" The first novel of the Honor Harrington series by David Weber. There, Honor's ship Fearless was equiped with the "Gravity Lance" weapon sytem. A weapon so massive it required the removal of a large portion of the light cruiser's conventional armament but gave it the capability to burn out the side wall (shield) of even captial ships in one shot, rendering them virtually defenseless to follow-up fire with more conventional weapons. I do think, however, Weber handled the weapon (slightly) better than DS9 did. Where ST DS9 went the usual Star Trek way of having someone from the main cast technobabble a "silver bullet" sollution for the problem that was then implemented fleet-wide almost instantainiously with no required down time of the ships being retrofited worth mentioning (or at least nothing that showed up on-screen as a relevant plot point) and then the problem was just gone, the gravity lance went away mostly due to tactical limitations and changes in doctrine that made it not worth the trouble using. The gravity lance was from the beginning far more niche than the energy dampening weapon (for one, it was a short ranged weapon, while doctrine in the time shifted more to long-range engagements). In the mean time, ships in the Honorverse had to make due with just being on the lookout for the enemy potentially using the weapon and clutching a ad-hock response if needed. No silver bullet needed. In both cases the "resolution" of the plot point feels somewhat unsatisfactory as it is just allowed to peter out, but Weber did it a bit smoother and with less technobabble. So I give the "win" in this case to him over Star Trek.
The Torpedo Gunboat came before the Torpedoboat Destroyer. It was a slightly enlarged Torpedoboat armed with quickfire guns. It was ment to be used against Torpedoboats, but was found to be too slow to property counter them. They were designed as very small cruisers. Interestingly this is also what a corvette of this era would have been. If they were built. In essence a light frigate as defined by this era.
I remember us disagreeing on some ship clasifications in the past, and I remember thinking if only he had heard drachinifel talk about what defines traditinal ship types, that would set him straight! So, real pleased to see this collaboration, and learn drac is a trek ship nerd on top of being THE internet naval guy. The section on frigates, it would have been spot on if you called them light cruisers instead. LCs are pretty much the equivalent of age of sail frigates, but that's a bit out of place with the rest of the 1890-1950 era ship nomenclature here. A frigate from that time frame and now is like a destroyer but a bit smaller, and wile a destroyer is the smallest do everything ship, the frigate would only be a do most things ship, or specialized. The equinox, oberth, and a general purpose light duty miranda would all be frigates, wile a Miranda refit for battle could rate as a destroyer. As far as what trek eras correspond with navel eras, TOS is definetly late iornclad, TMP on into the early 24th century is the predreadnought era, and the USS Ambassador is the HMS Dreadnought. The galaxy class and sovereign, would be like if they built the Montana (galaxy) befor the Iowa (sovereign). If something like that had actualy happened, they would have called the Iowa a battlecruiser by comparison, and such is the case for the galaxy and sovereign.
The bit about the Miranda class being "downgraded" to Destroyer duty, has historical parralels. HMS Warrior was originally the mody modern battleship in the world, yet by the 1880s she's been downgraded from Battleship to "Armoured Cruiser". IIRC the Mirandas were originally Cruisers weren't they? So a downgrade to Destroyer status when they get long in the tooth seems understandable.
The BOP uses it's disruptors in Star Trek 3 when Commander Kuruge (Christopher Lloyd) kills his wife or gf on the freighter they got the Genesis info from from. He kills her because she admits to watching the Genesis tape.
When Kirk first mentions the class of his ship he calls the Enterprise a Constellation Clsss star ship. That makes sense given that Picard's Enterprise is a Galaxy Class star ship. Only later in T.O.S. does Kirk call his ship a Constitution Class ship. He mis-spoke in one of those two episodes but I don't know which.
I hope injecting my two cents to helps flesh out the Dominion War series based on a few things I know of naval history. While first/second/third-ships-of-the-line were not to categorize the capabilities of sea going vessels; it might be a good way to differentiate between refit TMP vs TNG vs Post-Wolf-359 designs. As someone who knows a little bit about the Age of Sail vessels; the idea that classes like the New Orleans and Intrepid are Frigates is spot on. However; many people will disagree as many nations nowadays use the terms Frigate and Destroyer interchangeably. For example, a modern Swedish Frigate has the same equipment, range, and weapons like a US Destroyer (they even look similar). Thus is may get confusing for some viewers. Personally, I'd classify them as Light Cruisers or Heavy Destroyers, but seeing we have another video I'm curious how you see the role of Light Cruisers. So maybe having them a separate role might make sense. Who knows.
I agree almost completely, on the light cruiser thing though, I have a point. They can only be light compared to other cruisers. While the US Navy boasts cruisers a lot of other navies really don't (at least not without specialist roles). For my two cents I'd stay with destroyer because the distinction between different sizes of cruisers is a moot distinction by now.
@@TheWoblinGoblin I see, at least Federation ships, follow more of the 1920s era Naval terminology. They could successfully engage enemy destroys, but could hardly engage anything heavier than them in single numbers.
Does Drach spend more time in front of a microphone than away? Not complaining I think the amount of content he puts out is incredible, and excellent quality.
I would offer that "Bird of Prey" is a catch-all term that is applied to ships that seem to have some style of bird aesthetic in their design regardless of the alien race. The original Romulan ship seen in the TOS episode "The Balance of Terror " was referred to as a Bird of Prey. The smaller Klingon ship we see first in TMP era and on into TNG and DS9 is a B'rel-class and the larger cruiser sized seen in the later TNG seasons is the K'Vort-class. Also, I recognize some of the ships you refer to as non-canon are actually from the Star Trek: Starship Tactical Combat Simulator, published by FASA Games in the mid-to-late '80s. Good to see they haven't been lost to history.
As I recall, FASA identified a frigate as a ship between the size of a cruiser and destroyer, and designed to carry small craft and Star Fleet Marines.
I have a friend who is an aeronautical engineer who outright rejects the notion that naval ship classes match anything that flies in space at all and we sometimes discuss what those differences can imply in a scientific work
Maybe so, but consider that a _Wickes_ class destroyer was 1250 tons, an _Omaha_ class cruiser was 9600 tons (both WW I vintage ships) while a modern destroyer like an _Arleigh Burke_ class weighs in at about the same weight as the _Omaha._ Which is a long way of saying technology marches on, and what would have functioned as a cruiser hull in _TOS_ is only a destroyer hull in _TNG._ This also explains why many 'destroyers' have such long legs: they were built as cruisers and the various refits maintained that range.
Why don't space ships have a default zero gravity impact button, so when the space torpedoes hit the crew don't go flying around as if they're in a Californian film studio 😑
@@barbararice6650 sounds like a good idea but if you suddenly became weightless in a moving vessel you might be splatted against the back wall or immobilized in the middle of a large drop waiting for gravity to turn back on and splat
@@barbararice6650 the ship could freely move around you if you became weightless and so you'd be mushed under acceleration or rattled to death by an explosion, you need weight for the artificial gravity to work on you (that's how I think it might work could be wrong) if it was making you weightless how could it cancel out movement without having a tractor emit on every deck (just my opinion)
@@MADDOG2151 Mass exists in a vacuum but not weight, so there's no gravitational effect on mass unless you introduce a field (Maxwell, developed by Eisenstein) 😑 Basically the problem we have is we're trying to introduce the properties of magic into a reasoned argument based on scientific understanding, a gravity on off switch 😑
Star Fleet Battles has carriers and gunboats. Star Fleet has carriers with a complement of a given number of fighter-shuttles and attack-shuttles. For some reason the Federation doesn’t have gunboats, but the Klingons have gunboats.
I would like to make a simple objection to some of the opening statements about the lack of Carriers. I would argue that it would have been closer to the early 1920's in the sense of the status of combat as Alex Jaeger the designer of the Akira class stated the ship was intended to be hybrid Carrier and I would push closer to say cross between a light cruiser and the Langley (The old CV-1)
Pinned comment for Q&A drydock style.
Needs pinning :D
well done sirs. my bro and i enjoy both of your vids.
Is the weird one the USS Prometheus?
@@nobodycares9186 Probably as even in real life navies, what a battlecruiser is vs a large cruiser or even if it's a fast battleship. Which are can be used to describe the Prometheus class.
@@alexandercaires5921 Prometheus is three attack ships in a battlecruiser's trench coat.
This was great fun, let us know if you want more!
Awesomeness Drach! Thank you for taking the time!
I would watch this all day long. Please keep making more.
I couldn't help but find it interesting that the state of Star Fleet (and other major Star Trek powers) in TNG seemed to match up so well against the developments in real life navies from the ironclad era to the world wars. And totally by accident. I will look forward to what you guys come up with (or maybe just try to survive) with cruisers. Maybe best put them into sub-classes. The Constitution class was supposed to be a heavy cruiser and the Miranda class a light cruiser in the movie era - I would probably start from there. Battleships will be interesting (especially since it is something that the Federation would never allow Star Fleet to have if they were honest about what its purpose really is).
well done sirs. my bro and i enjoy both of your vids.
This was awesome! Thanks Drach
Two legends crossing over, ID NEVER EXPECT THIS!
It's a bit trippy hearing Drach talk about Star Fleet and the Bajorans instead of the Kriegsmarine and Kamchatka.
But with equal love and intensity.
Do you see Torpedo Boats?
Drach: "We do see destroyers getting large, with modern examples in the ten- to fifteen thousand tonne range"
*Laughs in Izumo-class "Helicopter Destroyer"*
However, the destroyers of the this era are like the battleships of the 20th century due to the role as the main capital ship as well as their heavy powerful, ex. the US Navy's Arleigh Burke class have more firepower than a Worls War 2 battleship.
PLA Navy's Tyoe 55 destroyers are armed and sized like cruisers.
To be fair the better translation would be something like " trade protection aviation vessel" which is a pretty good descriptor of what is essentially an escort carrier.
Same energy as a Galaxy class "Exploratory Cruiser".
My take on the real life equivalent Star Trek's Submarine warfare is that that the only power to truly adopt it were the Romulans. However, they followed the concept of the cruiser sub. Where you produce a rather large submersible craft armed with high caliber guns, the most famous example being the French submarine Surcouf
The Klingon Birds of Prey (initially stolen from the Romulans) of the movie era were absolutely submarine counterparts.
Captain Pike said in "The Cage" that he had a crew of about 200. Half the cannon established laster in TOS of 400. Always figured Pike was only hauling around the people needed to run the ship. But for Kirk's mission, there were a lot of mission specialists added.
Makes sense. That was years before Scotty had the automation set up to run the Enterprise with “a chimpanzee and two trainees”, and even then that wasn’t meant for more than like a week of going on their own.
That would also explain why the crew quarters were so much bigger for strange new worlds. With shorter several month-long missions, they brought less people and had more room for crew quarters.
@@marcuspacheco3815no that's due to the show runners and mechanical designers decided to increase the size of the Enterprise as to "not make the Enterprise look small compared to the Discovery". They didn't need to upscale the ship to Excelsior size. Nor change the proportions.
@@barrybend7189 well that's just stupid and it's further evidence that Discovery in strange new worlds don't take place in the standard universe
@@marcuspacheco3815 i played the Discovery missions in Star Trek Online and in scale is pretty well scaled. You don't need a cruiser at that size.
What a unexpected but greatly welcome collaboration. Two of my favorite youtubers talking star trek. 👌
The collab we never expected but we need needed.
I was already a fan of Drachinifel. This is a great collaberation!
The frigates in the Age of Sail were the equivalent of more modern cruisers. They were the smallest ship capable of independent transoceanic action. With this in mind, I would argue that is what distinguishes cruisers from smaller vessels is that they are capable of long range independent action. Even the destroyers that accompanied the fleets pre-WW I, and WW II, needed support from the fleet auxilary vessels. With this in mind I would like to suggest that the Intrepid was a light cruiser while the Equinox was the equivalent of a modern frigate. The modern frigate had the range, but not the speed or firepower for independent action.
Not sure if you will adress this in part II, but I always felt that in STOS and maybe early ST:NG, the starships fought in a way you would expect of capital ships. Later, the capital ship fights started to resemble aerial dogfights. I suspect this was to get in more action in a small screen.
Definitly. When I think about Intrepid, the first naval vessel that jump into my mind is Town-Class Light Cruiser.
In TOS other than the shields thing are similar to submarine battles as it's all based on sensor readings not visuals. In later series it's a mix of dogfighting and nelsonian navel tactics.
@@barrybend7189
Technically, even with Nelson, you do not have these swooping maneuvers of dogfights. The ships were not capable of them. True, the line formation was no longer the "Law of God", but the individual maneuvers (which were glacially slow by modern standards) were mainly to close and board, not to gain advantageous firing positions or avoid being fired upon. In the Star Trek later series, it apears the ships all break formation and dive in, at least to me
The Star Trek original series episode Balance of Terror was very similar to a 1957 movie The Enemy Below. The movie was about a conflict between an American destroyer and a U-boat with each captain trying to outguess the other. The Star Trek episode involved Enterprise trying to find and destroy a cloaked Romulus ship.
@@Sherwoody
Always steal from the best. LOL To be fair, they had added some beautiful twists.
The Magnificent Seven was a remake of the Seven Samuri.
I very much enjoyed your guest’s post on French pre-dreadnought battleships, A period rarely covered and a love of mine since my father gave me my first Jane’s. It is fitting I find Drachinifel with brother Venom, as you both exemplify the technical precision of Jane’s combined with a story that has you smelling the cosmoline & cordite while feeling her at warp 8 by the thrumming of the deck plates, past and future through and through. Thank you gentlemen.
Ah yes, when Hotels Go to War. 😋
This is indeed quite the delight to finally see between the two of you.
The notion that Star Trek starships (at least in the 24th century) are most similar to 1890s/early-1900s ship design is a fascinating analysis, one that also can be further backed up by how in most Beta canon depictions of the 25th century, true space-base carries make a debut with the likes of the Jupiter & Vo'Quv. (I wonder if that will be brought up).
Also, the mention of how without the extra science stuff, these smaller vessels only need a few dozen people at most to crew does show the true advancements in the level of automation in Star Trek vessels.
It is fascinating in all the ways these designations line up, even in ways that were likely unintentional.
I look forward to future parts of this discussion when big guns are being brought in.
Good gods of Valhalla....... I never imagined a crossover.... fecking awesomeo
With the BoP and torp usage swapping to disruptors, it may be that shield tech improved to a point where that tactic was no longer effective. Common theme of the ST games is that torps are for lightly shielded or non shielded targets, energy weapons for taking down shields
This adds so much possible lore to the ships and the fleets of ST. Loved the "Maquis is a kind of proving ground" idea. Now there *could* be a prequel to Voyager. ;)
The Klingon Empire places an extreme premium on personal honor and combat, on proving oneself. It makes sense, with all those Houses vying for power, for a lot of cheaply build ships to be available for every noble's son who wants to prove himself. In that case you wind up with a fleet filled to the brim with old, inexpensive, constantly updated Birds of Prey with captains of varying skills. This might also explain why the Klingons don't seem to make new designs or experimental ships often: The low price and mass production availability is the most important thing for them.
…and yet the mighty Klingon Empire shakes in fear by the mere mention of the word…Tribble.
No it doesn't, the Klingon empire requires you provide a stamped addressed envelope if you wish to highlight any particular problematic enquiry you have regarding their inter galactic goings on, their help line number is just as obtuse in my experience 😑
Thank you both.
These videos are extremely useful for my D&D Campaigns.
Unexpected but still awesome
this is the matchup i never knew i wanted
My god! I can't believed I missed this! As a Trekkie, and a Naval history Enthusiast!
Much love to both of you! This was great!
so unexpected and cool
Drachinifel our favorite keeper of all knowledge on angry floating things (AKA Warships)
With the modular saucer theory...I'd actually believe that, wouldn't the easiest way of designing a ship be using what works on older designs and experiment until you get something better. Which even with my limited knowledge of ship design is fundmentally how designing alot of things worked.
On the point of cloaks being an argument for subs, I would say that cloaks are closer to the use of smokescreens.
I never thought about it like that. To defeat cloaks, you just use better sensors. Sensors are just radar...
Can't wait for the conversation about the sliding scale of use a ship has in Star Trek.
Alternative for the Frigate types: Protected Cruisers. They served that role in the 1890s, as well as the fleet scout in big engagements.
We will look at protected cruisers and where they might fit.
Best damn collaboration I ever saw. Drachnifel is second to none about historical naval warfare.
Simply amazing to see you the both of you collab.
This ought to happen more. Thank you.
Finaly somebody adds sense and logic to star trek ship designs even if not perfect. Good job!
OMG, i now have the head cannon of relatable ship era's. Oh that would make the ambassador, consolation, nebula, galaxy as treaty era ships. Thats perfect because those ships have alot of bite but are EXTREMELY compromised designs.
🖖😎👍Very cool and very nicely well done and very informatively executed and explained indeed guys, On all the various types of fighting ships with in the Startrek universe indeed👌.
Great colaboration dudes, your content and personalities do couple in perfect way. Your ideas and point of view are usually between smart and wise on my scale.
A legendary collaboration!
I just recently started getting into star trek again and found your channel, but have been following Drach for a couple years now, so its great to see the collab
It guess it shouldn't be surprising Drachinifel is a Trek fan. Cool video!
This is so awesome, Drachinifel: on your channel!!!!!!!!!! I learned so much about pre-dreadnought and other battleships from Drachinifel's channel!!!!!
Holy shi... cow. 2 of my favourite youtubers!
There is a bit in Star Trek III where the Klingon bird of prey uses its disruptors: When they receive the data on the Genesis device from those black market traders (at least that's how they come across in the movie) and then blow their ship to bits rather than pay for it, the BoP uses its wingtip mounted disruptor cannons rather than the nose mounted torpedo launcher.
Two of my faves together?? What is this awesomeness???
The perfect crossover!
Wow a ship talk with Drach, how cool is that!
HOLY SHIT THIS IS AWESOME!
Ive tried mappng out and defining sci fi ship classes in the past compared to different time periods. Its interesting to realize there are very different types of classification in the age of Sail. There is classification based on hull type: with characteristics leaning towards speed and cargo space etc. Something might be called a frigate if its fast, or a merchantman if it holds a lot of cargo. Then there is classification based on propulsion: sail rigging, number of sails, steam wheels etc. Like Yawl, Ketch, Schooner, etc. Then a more regular classification would be the gun number rating, 1st Rate, 2nd Rate, Frigate with single gun deck. Then finally in more modern times classification based on role. Cruiser, battlecruiser, destroyer. There are quite a few overlaps, but its interesting to classify scifi ships in different methods such as propulsion or role.
Fancy finding you here Drach 😀
Very interesting, looking forward to cruisers.
With regard to Mirandas during the Dominion War, in many scenes the ships have an impulse engine glow on the back of the tactical pod. It would seem that the Federation built (or perhaps converted) pods with impulse engines replacing the aft firing torpedoes that were present on the Reliant. This fits nicely with the idea that the Mirandas were utilized in the fast attack ship role during the Dominion War. In my head canon, these are what Sisko was referring to when he says "Destroyer wing"
Funny thing about how Frigates are often testbeds for experimental weaponry or equipment, the modern US Navy had just retired its Perry Class, then they had a laser weapon that was at the ship mountable stage that they wanted to test, so instead of a Frigate, they slap it on an old transport, the USS Ponce!
This is the best crossover i've seen in a long time!
2 channels I didn't expect to see together!!!
We need more collabs like this
It’s interesting to put a naval history into the design of a fictional universe. Many good ideas.
My two favorite channels in one? I love it
Can’t wait for the next episode
I see drach. I watch. I enjoy.
Two of my favourite RUclipsrs in one video! This must be my early birthday present xD
Holy crap can't wait for part 2!
WHAT! TWO TITANS IN SHIP CHATS!?!?!?!? WHERE DID THIS COME FROM! AHHHHH I LOVE THIS! SO UNEXPECTED!
I really enjoyed listening to your speculation on ship classes compared with historic examples.
I can see this becoming a podcast like series which I would be down for
Really enjoyed this! Can't wait for the next one!
as always a very interesting and well put together video guys😊
This was brilliant. I love Draco and I love your channel. Thank you!
Really enjoyed this! Look forward to more.
Actually, in Star Trek 3: The Search For Spock, Kruge's Bird-of-Prey uses the disruptor cannons at the tips of its wings on the merchantman that was carrying the klingon spy. However, said merchantman would have been a relatively "soft target" while its torpedoes (the look is all wrong for a photon torpedo so I always thought they were some kind of miniaturized adaptation of the Romulan plasma torpedo from "Balance of Terror") would be reserved for bigger and tougher prey.
Yeah the merchantman is definitely a soft target. I suppose it might correspond to the turrets on torpedo boats
This is just perfect. What a good collaboration 👏
Thanks gentlemen
I enjoyed this very much. I don't agree with all your assumptions , But please do more!
The part about the Breen energy dampening weapon reminded me of one of the mayor plot point of "On Basilisk Station" The first novel of the Honor Harrington series by David Weber.
There, Honor's ship Fearless was equiped with the "Gravity Lance" weapon sytem. A weapon so massive it required the removal of a large portion of the light cruiser's conventional armament but gave it the capability to burn out the side wall (shield) of even captial ships in one shot, rendering them virtually defenseless to follow-up fire with more conventional weapons.
I do think, however, Weber handled the weapon (slightly) better than DS9 did.
Where ST DS9 went the usual Star Trek way of having someone from the main cast technobabble a "silver bullet" sollution for the problem that was then implemented fleet-wide almost instantainiously with no required down time of the ships being retrofited worth mentioning (or at least nothing that showed up on-screen as a relevant plot point) and then the problem was just gone, the gravity lance went away mostly due to tactical limitations and changes in doctrine that made it not worth the trouble using. The gravity lance was from the beginning far more niche than the energy dampening weapon (for one, it was a short ranged weapon, while doctrine in the time shifted more to long-range engagements).
In the mean time, ships in the Honorverse had to make due with just being on the lookout for the enemy potentially using the weapon and clutching a ad-hock response if needed. No silver bullet needed.
In both cases the "resolution" of the plot point feels somewhat unsatisfactory as it is just allowed to peter out, but Weber did it a bit smoother and with less technobabble. So I give the "win" in this case to him over Star Trek.
The Torpedo Gunboat came before the Torpedoboat Destroyer. It was a slightly enlarged Torpedoboat armed with quickfire guns. It was ment to be used against Torpedoboats, but was found to be too slow to property counter them.
They were designed as very small cruisers.
Interestingly this is also what a corvette of this era would have been. If they were built. In essence a light frigate as defined by this era.
Amazing analysis
I remember us disagreeing on some ship clasifications in the past, and I remember thinking if only he had heard drachinifel talk about what defines traditinal ship types, that would set him straight! So, real pleased to see this collaboration, and learn drac is a trek ship nerd on top of being THE internet naval guy.
The section on frigates, it would have been spot on if you called them light cruisers instead. LCs are pretty much the equivalent of age of sail frigates, but that's a bit out of place with the rest of the 1890-1950 era ship nomenclature here. A frigate from that time frame and now is like a destroyer but a bit smaller, and wile a destroyer is the smallest do everything ship, the frigate would only be a do most things ship, or specialized. The equinox, oberth, and a general purpose light duty miranda would all be frigates, wile a Miranda refit for battle could rate as a destroyer.
As far as what trek eras correspond with navel eras, TOS is definetly late iornclad, TMP on into the early 24th century is the predreadnought era, and the USS Ambassador is the HMS Dreadnought. The galaxy class and sovereign, would be like if they built the Montana (galaxy) befor the Iowa (sovereign). If something like that had actualy happened, they would have called the Iowa a battlecruiser by comparison, and such is the case for the galaxy and sovereign.
The Miranda is surely the Wickes class of Starfleet....
I love this video and I love that you brought in Drach! I look forward to the next video!
This was very interesting 🤔. I like it,hope they keep it going on more things after the ships are done.
The bit about the Miranda class being "downgraded" to Destroyer duty, has historical parralels. HMS Warrior was originally the mody modern battleship in the world, yet by the 1880s she's been downgraded from Battleship to "Armoured Cruiser". IIRC the Mirandas were originally Cruisers weren't they? So a downgrade to Destroyer status when they get long in the tooth seems understandable.
This is great, two of my favorite channels coming together.
The BOP uses it's disruptors in Star Trek 3 when Commander Kuruge (Christopher Lloyd) kills his wife or gf on the freighter they got the Genesis info from from. He kills her because she admits to watching the Genesis tape.
When Kirk first mentions the class of his ship he calls the Enterprise a Constellation Clsss star ship. That makes sense given that Picard's Enterprise is a Galaxy Class star ship. Only later in T.O.S. does Kirk call his ship a Constitution Class ship. He mis-spoke in one of those two episodes but I don't know which.
I hope injecting my two cents to helps flesh out the Dominion War series based on a few things I know of naval history. While first/second/third-ships-of-the-line were not to categorize the capabilities of sea going vessels; it might be a good way to differentiate between refit TMP vs TNG vs Post-Wolf-359 designs. As someone who knows a little bit about the Age of Sail vessels; the idea that classes like the New Orleans and Intrepid are Frigates is spot on. However; many people will disagree as many nations nowadays use the terms Frigate and Destroyer interchangeably. For example, a modern Swedish Frigate has the same equipment, range, and weapons like a US Destroyer (they even look similar). Thus is may get confusing for some viewers. Personally, I'd classify them as Light Cruisers or Heavy Destroyers, but seeing we have another video I'm curious how you see the role of Light Cruisers. So maybe having them a separate role might make sense. Who knows.
I agree almost completely, on the light cruiser thing though, I have a point. They can only be light compared to other cruisers. While the US Navy boasts cruisers a lot of other navies really don't (at least not without specialist roles). For my two cents I'd stay with destroyer because the distinction between different sizes of cruisers is a moot distinction by now.
@@TheWoblinGoblin I see, at least Federation ships, follow more of the 1920s era Naval terminology. They could successfully engage enemy destroys, but could hardly engage anything heavier than them in single numbers.
Excellant, as always!
Can't wait for the next show :))
Does Drach spend more time in front of a microphone than away? Not complaining I think the amount of content he puts out is incredible, and excellent quality.
This is a great video you guys I always wondered what it would be like hearing you two come together for a collaboration like this. 🖖
Awesomeness! Absolut Awesomeness!!!
I would offer that "Bird of Prey" is a catch-all term that is applied to ships that seem to have some style of bird aesthetic in their design regardless of the alien race. The original Romulan ship seen in the TOS episode "The Balance of Terror " was referred to as a Bird of Prey.
The smaller Klingon ship we see first in TMP era and on into TNG and DS9 is a B'rel-class and the larger cruiser sized seen in the later TNG seasons is the K'Vort-class.
Also, I recognize some of the ships you refer to as non-canon are actually from the Star Trek: Starship Tactical Combat Simulator, published by FASA Games in the mid-to-late '80s. Good to see they haven't been lost to history.
Definitely I'll go into it a little more when I cover 23rd century romulans. But it is essentially a class type in itself.
As I recall, FASA identified a frigate as a ship between the size of a cruiser and destroyer, and designed to carry small craft and Star Fleet Marines.
I have a friend who is an aeronautical engineer who outright rejects the notion that naval ship classes match anything that flies in space at all and we sometimes discuss what those differences can imply in a scientific work
great video
I always thought of the Miranda as a Light Cruiser to the Constition class's heavy cruiser
Maybe so, but consider that a _Wickes_ class destroyer was 1250 tons, an _Omaha_ class cruiser was 9600 tons (both WW I vintage ships) while a modern destroyer like an _Arleigh Burke_ class weighs in at about the same weight as the _Omaha._ Which is a long way of saying technology marches on, and what would have functioned as a cruiser hull in _TOS_ is only a destroyer hull in _TNG._
This also explains why many 'destroyers' have such long legs: they were built as cruisers and the various refits maintained that range.
And thus the Epic Halo theme began playing..
OMG!!! Love this co op!!!
This was way more interesting than trekyards has ever been
Why don't space ships have a default zero gravity impact button, so when the space torpedoes hit the crew don't go flying around as if they're in a Californian film studio 😑
@@barbararice6650 sounds like a good idea but if you suddenly became weightless in a moving vessel you might be splatted against the back wall or immobilized in the middle of a large drop waiting for gravity to turn back on and splat
@@MADDOG2151
If you suddenly become weightless in a moving vessel presumably you're traveling at the same speed as it 😑
Didn't get your 'drop' point 😑
@@barbararice6650 the ship could freely move around you if you became weightless and so you'd be mushed under acceleration or rattled to death by an explosion, you need weight for the artificial gravity to work on you (that's how I think it might work could be wrong) if it was making you weightless how could it cancel out movement without having a tractor emit on every deck (just my opinion)
@@MADDOG2151
Mass exists in a vacuum but not weight, so there's no gravitational effect on mass unless you introduce a field (Maxwell, developed by Eisenstein) 😑
Basically the problem we have is we're trying to introduce the properties of magic into a reasoned argument based on scientific understanding, a gravity on off switch 😑
Whoaaa nice collab 👌🏻
I… I think I’ve died and gone to heaven
I assure you. You are very much alive.
You guys are awesome
Star Fleet Battles has carriers and gunboats. Star Fleet has carriers with a complement of a given number of fighter-shuttles and attack-shuttles. For some reason the Federation doesn’t have gunboats, but the Klingons have gunboats.
I would like to make a simple objection to some of the opening statements about the lack of Carriers. I would argue that it would have been closer to the early 1920's in the sense of the status of combat as Alex Jaeger the designer of the Akira class stated the ship was intended to be hybrid Carrier and I would push closer to say cross between a light cruiser and the Langley (The old CV-1)
The Akira and several others where used as carriers in DS9, mostly kitbashed variants of Excelsiors...
Is it sad I'm geeking out right now. EEEEEEEEE. Oh, my god, oh my God, oh, my god.
Kitbashes are the lifeblood of Startrek Starship design, man they've inflicted some visual horrors on us over the years.
The Miranda and the Saber should be similar as they share an overall linage and are both Andorian designs
Suggestion for ship listings, instead of that dark purple for the federation ships, use a bright blue