Drydock Q&A If the High Seas Fleet was allowed to remain in German hands after World War One, how would it have changed German naval strategy and naval construction during the interwar years and World War Two? How would it be affected by the Washington and London naval treaties?
What would have happened if the Cumberland had taken part in the battle of the river plate as if i'm not mistaken she was meant to be with force H but was refitting i imagine that Exeter would be quite happy to have another cruiser to help her if only because shes not going to be the only one being shot at quite so much
Considering the economic Situation of Britain after the 1. World war, what do you think would happen to the ships of the Kriegsmarine, if they hadn't been destroyed by their crew? I can't quite imagine the whole fleet going to the scrappyard
@@DarthAverage I heard the USS Johnston had to have a gun turret removed to accommodate the extra displacement of the Captains giant solid steel balls😂
Yamato heavy: I Fear no man, but that thing... *nervously looks back and forth* It scares me. silhouette of the USS Johnston zooms back and forth in the background making multiple 180 degree turns while emitting Ork WAAAAGGHH sound effects
Eh, Taffy 3 had something more powerful than mere battlelust and WAAAAAGH. It had the pure, and complete spite of humans placed with their back to the wall and iron resolve.
@@aquila4460 The sheer stubborn resolve of a man in command of about 270 men and a ship tasked with defending 200,000 American soldiers. Maybe thinking something like "You can shell my countrymen when you have blown my ship out from under my firmly planted feet!". It wasn't just their backs to the wall, it was the invasion force that was depending on them and they were all that was there to protect them.
The American force would still have massive air cover during daylight, the Japanese battle line would be mess based on their prior experience with air attack earlier.
This was a great discussion of the alternative outcomes. I suspect this was the last battle the Japanese would have had any chance of winning, as long as winning means "we sunk more ships that you did". In terms of the overall outcome of the war, the shipyards were pouring out huge numbers of the Fletcher class and their bigger and more dangerous brothers, the Sumner and Gearing classes. Vast numbers of Cleveland light and Baltimore heavy cruisers were still coming down the ways, not to mention the fearsome Iowa class. US carriers, from escort to fleet types, were also being commissioned and stationed in the Pacific, so any Japanese warship could count on meeting not only generally superior US surface ships but being swarmed by hundreds of US aircraft. As a final blow, the British Pacific Fleet shows up in January, 1945 with four more modern battleships, six fleet carriers, fifteen light carriers, and eleven excellent cruisers. This doesn't even take into account all the other smaller ships. The combined US and British logistic trains meant almost any ship damaged in battle could either be put back in service in a few days or made ready to sail to a rear repair area for heavier work. Japanese ships damaged really depended on whatever a crew could scrounge for repair work, all the while trying to remain camouflaged and dodging constant air attacks. By early 1945, very few ships were able to run the gauntlet of US subs to get back to mainland dockyards, and most of those they did were further damaged or sunk by allied air attacks. One can only wonder about the state of morale of many Japanese sailors in 1945. The Japanese were well and truly stuffed long before the events of August, 1945.
Two minor quibbles... First, if Taffy 3 was sufficient to make the Japanese force turn around, a larger U.S. force was sufficient to make the Japanese force turn around-all other things being equal. The alternative scenario requires the Japanese commander’s approach to be different, namely, far more aggressive to the point of risking his entire force. The attitude actually displayed wasn’t just a matter of competence but involved being aware of what it would mean to lose the entire force that day. It reminds me of the pressure on Jellicoe, who couldn’t win the war in a day but could lose it in a day. Perhaps we should expect the Japanese commander to turn around as losses started to mount, just as happened in real life. Less interesting than modeling the slugfest, but probably more realistic. And the other quibble: no US planes. By this point in the war the Japanese Navy had no choice but to slug it out using surface guns, but the U.S. Navy always had air support lined up. The longer the battle lasted, the more likely that U.S. planes would have tipped the balance no matter how the surface battle was playing out.
@@dogofthedesert6642 Good points. I think Drach was just modeling the slugfest, but, even with Taffy 3, it was the aircraft from the escort carriers of Taffy 1 and 2, responding to the calls for help from Taffy 3, and their near suicidal attacks, that helped convince Kurita he was under attack by the main US fleet. It was the aggressiveness of the DD's and DE's that helped convince Kurita that he was under attack by cruisers of the main US fleet and the battleships would be just over the horizon. While the US had technological advantages, it was the training, morale, and fighting spirit of the USN that turned that battle. Kurita was trying not to lose the war in a day while the men and ships he was opposing fought like they were trying to win it in a day. Had Kurita actually been opposed by the entire force of Admiral Oldendorf, the slaughter would have been horrific.
Was about to write your first point, but you saved me the trouble. Drachinifel did address it by saying the simulation assumed a willingness to fight that the Japanese commander, Kurita, did not actually show (See 15:00). I get that the goal was to get to the big gun fight, no matter how many historical counterfactuals, but this felt to me like one hand wave too many.
We know how the battle and war turns out but in real time the men on these ships felt and were encouraged to think that THIS battle and THEIR ships were fighting for lives and fighting for their country . Across the board every one felt this was do or die and no way out .Knowing that the human drama on these ships was unbelievable but to get a real picture and sense of the ACTUAL battle
And more and more forward repair capacity was being brought to the front, such as portable dry docks. The Japanese simply did not have the logistical capacity to maintain the war.
The mad man actually did it. Love battle reports. I like this format more than the last one as it really goes through the different possibilities better.
I like both they both have their place. When you have one that is so one sided then yes the Texal style of video is great. Basically, let the wargame outcome determine the style of video.
Remember the Japanese haven't had gunnery training a proper maintenance on that fire control systems for a year. That's why they couldn't hit anything.
My college professor back in 1968 was a LT on the admiral's staff of Taffy 3. When I asked him what the reaction was when the pagoda masts were spotted. He chuckled and said, "The head did a land office business." More than that, I could get no comment.
@@ramal5708 could you imagine if the crews of the Samuel B Roberts and the Johnston go for boarding one of the Japanese Battleships like it's the days of the Ships of the Line, them steaming into Pearl Harbor having captured a Japanese battlewagon
Which format to use probably depends on how you and your wargaming friends determine the battle is likely to go down. If the playtests show generally similar outcomes then a detailed timeline format would be the way to go. In cases like this one, where the possible outcomes are too widely varied for a single outcome to be determined, a walkthrough like this one discussing the various game-breakers and workable tactics for each side to use to win works better. It also keeps these videos from getting to formulaic and (if the term can ever be applied to talking about battleships doing their thing) boring...
Favourite line : “here's 250 torpedoes dodge that” , very good in depth look at a complex scenario & another great video . Keep up the good work , I enjoy the classic British humor with your vids.
Two comments: 1. When I was running cruiser-destroyer battles in my college wargames club, I used to rate Brooklyns and Clevelands as heavy cruisers for game-balance purposes, and it came out about right. 2. There's one other alternate Samar scenario you should think about: Center Force vs. the fast battleships of TF34.
Second the TF34 scenario. Assume Halsey stayed on the New Jersey and took it with the carriers: That leaves the highly regarded Admiral Lee on Washington, with Alabama, Iowa, Massachusetts, South Dakota, and say... five cruisers and 14 destroyers for company. How does that force stack up against the Yamato and friends?
@@treyhelms5282 - They also had the New Jersey so the same number of battleships as this scenario for the Americans, two fewer cruisers, and fewer destroyers, but those 6 battleships are modern battleships. Unless the pre-battleship battle goes heavily in Japan's favor and then they are able to get a good long lance attack against the American BB's putting a couple out of action, I think the Americans stuff the Japanese in the main line of battle action. They would IMO still have the battleship advantage even if Musashi had made it.
@@timwf11b Yeah, I'm thinking since Halsey and his staff were aboard the New Jersey, he would take her with the carriers. (the added AAA and surface action insurance could be a bonus)
@@erichammer2751 Yeah, maybe Drach or someone else really knowledgeable knows. Dunno what criteria admirals choose their flagships? Like Halsey on NJ, and Kurita on Atago?
@@JediKnight19852002 I think they would go for the kill, It's the Fuso and Yamashiro we are talking about so they probably eat the entire salvo of torpedoes and blow up. That said, I would pay good money to see Evans leading any kind of boarding action.
@@santiago5388 hah, were sailors even trained in boarding actions by this point? this isn't nelson's royal navy we're talking about, and i doubt a ship as small as a fletcher would carry a contingent of marines.
Two things stand out to me in this alternate history. Where are the planes? If the Taffy groups were unmolested the US battle line would have definitely called in their support. Also, we need to remember the IJN crews were TIRED. They have been on battle stations or close to it most of the last 2 days. Constant threats and alarms means very little sleep.
If the Taffy groups or other carriers intervene you not only have a slug fest but more harassment from air attacks that will make a mess of IJN formations and tactical cohesiveness. That would raise the odds much more in favor of the USN as IJN ships are dodging air and surface attacks while USN ships are only worried about surface attacks. Also, air attacks could take out a couple of the major IJN units swinging the surface balance more in favor of the USN.
Halsey'sfastcarrier forehead been turnedbackbythe time taffy's last stand-a swarm of very angrytorpedobombersandivebomberswouldsurelyhavecaughtthe center Forcetryingto withdraw-even if they'd raised Helloffthe landing beaches. Butifthey'dg otto within gun rangeofthe landing beaches, there'dhavebeen a LOTof dead sailors floating thBayand dozens wrecked LSTand AK'sburningon the beaches, havingtriedto "fight as shore emplacements with olsWW1surplus6"gunson tin-cladfreightersagainst armored warships!
A lot of details were omitted just for the sake of the scenario to play out. I'm not saying that details are unimportant, but sometimes one just wants to fast-forward to the good part!
I tend to agree here. In the actual battle, with all respect to the mad destroyermen, it was the 250+ sorties by Taffy 2 and Taffy 3 that persuaded Kurita to turn back. Moreover, it was arguably the right decision, as his surviving force would have been under constant air attack if they had pushed on. And it was aircraft that did for Musashi, after all (as well as Yamato later).
So, here's a hypothetical. What if Yukikaze and Shigure operated together given that they both stole the luck of the ships around them? Does Yukikaze's stronger luck win out, do they cancel each other out making them both ordinary, or does something really weird happen like both of them end up with no luck and it gets bounced back to the rest of the task force they're operating in?
"Never underestimate a swarm of angry Fletchers" Just three DDs and an escort held 'em off in reality; a swarm would be Hell. Yamato would have died there instead of heading towards Okinawa. Also it really seemed like you were struggling to give the IJN a fighting chance. Especially concerning the gunnery; your video about Samar last week mentioned specifically that optics like the ones the Japanese relied on weren't as useful in maneuvering and so they tended to more or less plod on or make grand, broad sweeps, while American ships with their fire control systems and radar would be more free to throw off the aim of the enemy ships with maneuvers while simultaneously keeping up more accurate return fire. Granted, the 21-knots of the Standard BBs would have not been as effective at that, but it's still something I don't recall you mentioning here. Plus there's also the question of what if the American recognized that the Yamato was the biggest threat and concentrated fire on her early-on to take her out, or at least render her ineffective? 14" and 16" might not be enough to sink her, but throw enough firepower at the superstructure and those vaunted optics of the Yamato won't be seeing enough to aim those overcompensating guns. I mean, you can't look through optics that are sitting on the deck because the superstructure supporting them was blasted away. And that's not even taking into account Kurita's half-assed direction of the battle. Granted, it'd be bloody on both sides; no way that the old battlewagons would have gotten away Scot-free, nor the cruisers, but the ending really isn't very likely to be anything but "Japan loses" unless you postulate some really big ifs.
If I was in charge of the US I don't see why you would not try the destroyer swarm. You have so many and it gives you plenty of time to get the larger ships organized I don't see why that would not be what is done.
5 лет назад+16
The japanese wouldn’t even have tried to fight. The moment they encounter the US force, they would have tried to withdraw and the US DD’s would have bumrushed them to try to prevent them from making it out alive.
There was also the fact that he somehow inserted Takao and Myoko into the Japanese heavy cruiser force when both ships had actually turned back to port due to damage by that time. No idea how no one caught that.
@TJ Bowman All those destroyers would be making smoke all the while the fire control systems would remain locked on and tracking the targets, 5" guns blazing and reading off range and heading to the torpedo fire control computer. It would have been glorious!
it wasn't JUST the dds that turned kurita back. i'd argue it was at least half the constant aircraft harassment, even though most of the actual damage was due to the dds. the taffies were composed of 16 CVEs and 400 aircraft, similar in number to the pearl harbor strike force. in the fog of war kurita probably couldn't accurately assess the source of all his damage suffered, but with that many planes constantly buzzing him it was completely reasonable for him to assume there were fleet carriers in the area. it was an underrated fact of american industrial might that by this time in the war a fleet of american escort carriers could put up an air attack bigger than a group of japanese fleet carriers. of course the biggest reason for his turning back was his own incompetence, but the planes were a large part of what scared him off.
It wasn't just surface search radar. It was also radar fire control systems, something the Japanese completely lacked. The Yamato's radar was only a surface search set. All the "old" battleships and most of the cruisers and destroyers were equipped with varying numbers of Mark 37 GFCS directors tied back into the Ford 1A computer and Mk 6 Stable Element, all being controlled through the plotting table in the Combat Information Center. The only hope for the Japanese was to drive into as close a range as possible. The US GFCS radars were only about as effective as Japanese optical directors at close range. The further the range, the more rapidly the Japanese would be smothered by the radar controlled gunfire from US fleet. Even the Long Lance didn't have the advantages they did two years earlier as improvements in sonar and radars on the US were able to detect the firing and path of the torpedoes while broadcasting the data to the other ships in the fleet. Even this advantage was negated by rainge, so closer range on the part of the Japanese gives them their best chance of survival wile damaging and sinking US ships.
This was my major issue with the play through as well. The IJN Battleline did almost no damage with sustained fire against some jeep carriers and destroyers. IF the IJN can get the hits then sure it is going to wreck things, but the USN at this time was almost hitting their first salvo. The IJN is going to die gloriously, instead of running away this time.
The hit is confirmed as being from a battleship, but it was assumed to be from one of the Kongo class as the Yamato was "too far away", but more recently translated japanese records indicate that neither of the Kongo class or the nagato were firing at that ship, leaving Yamato as the probable source despite the extreme range. The hit was also technically a near miss that traveled underwater and detonated under the keel of the CVE in question. but IJN shells were specifically designed to make this sort of hit possible, with long delay fuses and a shell shape that was optimized to maximize underwater travel distance. (To the detriment of their performance against lightly armored surface targets. A lot of shells at the battle of samar passed all the way through the DD's & DE's before detonating.) The Iowas by comparison got several near misses at an even longer range at Truk, but failed to do significant damage, and are generally not considered in people's " longest hit ever" comparisons.
Good point. I believe, and am too lazy to check, at the Battle of Surigao Strait, West Virginia '44 hit Yamashiro with her first salvo and the other old American BBs quickly keyed in. Radar was decisive.
The Brooklyn class cruisers would have been a game changer in this fight. They had the most recent radar, they had 3 extra 6inch barrels over the Cleveland's and the ammunition loading process was mostly automatic. Allowing them to absolutely pour fire non stop. The Boise and Helena(A different class but a half sister nonetheless) proved this in 42/43. They did have light armor but its hard to fight back when 6inch shells are walking up and down your decks and wrecking everything. Lastly, I don't think the Fletchers and the one Tribal class would have ever stopped firing the main batteries. Fire whatever guns you can bring to bear. And keep firing till either you sink, the barrels melt or the magazines are empty. The Japanese fleet would have been absolutely been buried under waves of 4.5, 5inch and 6inch fire. Add in some 8inch and 14, 16 inch fire for good measure.
Rimmi Peepsicles Wow for over 11 months no one realizes that while you mentioned how the Americans abusing cover and concealment, you said rain and then you thanked Drach for his DRY humor. Just wow
As a retired history teacher. I really love your channel. These "What If" situations are very entertaining. I appreciate the effort you made in making them.
Both styles of videos have their place. Let the war game decide which type of video you should produce. BTW as a former American "small boy" sailor I absolutely love the "swarm of angry Fletchers" and other comments regarding the sheer courage of the American destroyer screen. Bravo good sir.
I have watched the Texel video couple of times, and I have to say that I enjoyed it more, but not because quality of making, but the circumstances of scenarios. At Texel both sides would have had a plan ( I guess) and technology was for the both sides was similar, while alternate Samar has too many "what if's". At Texel both sides would have had full armament, fuel, commands structure and one general site of battle with bad weather (allways). At alternate Samar you have number of battles on large area, with different commanders and goals etc. What I am trying to say is that I might be more fun making a video about scenarios where conditions are better known and scenario plays differently from real event by a single flip of a coin then rolling a dice and letting it play out. For example if the Scharnhorst would not has lost its radar at North Cape early on or if Prince of Wales and Repulse would have gone unspotted by the Japanes and returned to Singapore to fight another day. Love the channel, keep at the good work. P.S I have suggested before, but if you ever get around and find it interesting, the British Navy at the Baltic during and after WW1 is a toppic that would easylly be made into an episode in it self. You have submarines operating against germans, torpedo boats sinking russians, espionage, royal navy saving estonia from Soviet fleet, L55 submarine ending in the hands of the russians, submarines scutteled of Finland, etc.
You are a gamer and not into the reality of the conflicts. Real men lived and died in the battles you mention with no feeling for them. Just my thought of you.
10:15 "...and then you have one crazy battleship that thinks it's an oversized destroyer and charges the straight down the middle." +flambass is that you on two brothers?
A very interesting scenario. Theres so much that could happen to change the outcome by a little to a lot. I can understand how hard it was to do this episode when you had so much (possible events) that could change the outcome.
By this point in the war it was recognized by USN tacticians that radar gunnery held THE advantage, so that, in the event of a surface-force encounter, the primary role of the destroyer screen would be to lay down a smokescreen, from which the blue force units would shoot. Blindfire capability was highly prized in late '44, as Adm. "Ching" Lee was a major proponent and very influential after his decisive victory at the 2nd Naval Battle of Guadalcanal. Another factor not really talked about here is the fact that, although all of the USN battleships were pre and contemporary World War I construction, California, West Virginia and Tennessee were almost complete rebuilds. They sported greatly-upgraded fire-control, armor, secondary batteries, torpedo defense, communications and everything else that might be found in a modern US battleship. The West Virginia and Maryland also had the advantage of shipping USNs 2700lb. 16" projectile, which was incredibly destructive (claimed by BuOrd to be the equivalent of the USN 18" weapon contemplated in the 1920s and '30s). Given all of these factors, I would put 7th Fleet's chances in this engagement at: Better than average....................
Add to that the quality, or lack thereof, of the Yamato's armor. Postwar tests concluded that Japans steel wasn't all that great with a high degree of impurities. Another postwar test pitted a sample of leftover armor vs a armor piercing 16" projectile. The projectile tore through the armor and was lost in the Potomac River.
OTOH, Pennsylvania's f/c was so bad she didn't even fire a shot a Surigao Strait. Granted, there weren't many targets left by the time it got to her place in line.
They had the Mark 1 16'', which was not equal to the 18 " in penetration. The Mark 7, in the iowa, was claimed to be almost as powerful as the 18", which is very impressive. There is a video in the New Jersey Channel, with drachnifel, where they show the difference in size of this rounds. The 18 " would still have much bigger bursting charge, though. The real advantage for the americans here would be the radars, the amount of destroyers and the computers and radars to find a firing solution, i think. Also, it's hard to believe that at this stage of the war, such a big battle would be fought without any American aircraft carrier around .
Rener De Castro Fun idea, but a night battle there (starting at night anyway) with the first thing the Japanese would have known being torpedo hits followed by long-range super-heavy 16" salvos they couldn't answer, then heavy air attacks starting at dawn... maybe not so interesting.
@@stevebloom55 You're forgetting that this scenario would have had the Iowa fighting the Yamato, something a lot of enthusiasts still talk about to this day.
@@RenerDeCastro They wouldn't be fighting so much as Iowa getting target practice. The encounter would have begun at night, radar detection and targeting would have taken center stage and Yamato may have had a basic radar set, but it would be nothing technically compared to what Iowa was equipped with, as well as *vastly* superior operators on Iowa. Before Yamato even knew they were there, never mind the rest of centerforce, they would be on the receiving end of a hailstorm of 16" shells blasting the deck and everything on it to hell.
Samar has been a wargaming focus for me for over 20 years. When the rules are adjusted for realistic weapons behaviour, the historical scenario almost always plays out as actually occurred. The scenario you are looking to do here, was actually far more likely than the battle against Taffy Three that actually occurred. Digging thru the Seventh Fleet Oporder for the invasion, I happened across the patrol plans for the seaplane wing. Turns out that a Catalina was scheduled to make a daily run straight up the east coast of Samar, but on this day it had aborted and did not fly. If it had been up as planned, it would have picked up Center Force long before it reached Taffy Three, providing enough warning for the Taffys to clear to the east and configure anti ship strikes about the same time Center Force clears the south east corner of Samar and walks into the 7th Fleet gunline hiding to the west.
Quality of the fleet commanders must count for something. I'd pick Oldendorf as the more pugnacious over Kurita, hence he would probably use far more aggressive tactics, i.e. massed destroyer attack supported by cruisers with the battleships in reserve as overwatch.
17:13 The opening phase, where the Japanese come steaming over the horizon, screaming "Omae wa mou shindeiru!" while everyone in the American fleet goes "Ah shit, here we go again." Also I like the Texel style better. Just seems cooler, especially the outtakes.
I had the privilege of being a boot ensign in Heermann in1955 and her gun boss when we decommissioned her on the 20th of December 1957. I have always said that she was the ship that I liked most. My XO taught me how to be a Naval Officer. He retired as a Read Admiral. I look back at the good times and the bad time with equal pleasure. She was a very good ship. Too bad the Argentinians mad razor blades from her remains. She would have made a very good monument ship.
A very interesting and thought provoking video Drachinifel There are so many variables in this it is very much a case of 'Viewer pick your favorite possibility.' The fact you took out the very poor decisions of the Japanese admirals really help their forces. Loved how you showed just how decisive an advantage technology can give one side in the right circumstances, especially when that edge in pronounced. Also, thank you for pointing out just how dangerous the Japanese long lance torpedoes were to the ships carrying them. Liquid oxygen and shell fire is a devastatingly bad combination which too few people realize. Another possible "What If" scenario to do would be" What if Beatty's signals officer didn't mess up at the Battle of Dogger Bank and the British BC's were able to chase the German BC's down.
Given what I know of the history of Leyte Gulf, you had to make some MAJOR assumptions and limitations to bring about a good old-fashioned battleship brawl. And I don't mean that as criticism in any way - you HAD to limit the scope and forces involved, otherwise there were just too many factors to account for, to even get to the point of the "fun" part of a BB brawl. Such as, I can't imagine a scenario, at this stage of the war, where the USN wouldn't have had dedicated air cover and support for this large a force, from at least one or two of the Taffy groups, if we wanted to be as realistic as possible. I can imagine poor old Kurita, with the way he reacted historically, facing a handful of DD's and escort carriers plus being under constant air attack, having a complete mental breakdown. Faced with 6 BB's, 8 cruisers, and enough DD's for every day of the month, PLUS air attack from one or more of the Taffy groups, he would have just said "NOPE" and hightailed it out of Dodge. At that, I quite enjoyed the way you covered this, with the possible different outcomes and strategies, and the explanations as to why.
To be fair he thought it was Cruisers escorting Fleet Carriers. Simply having actual fleet carriers or battleships there for reference might make him significantly less inept.
IF things had gone as planned -- at least 2 of the Taffys wouldn't have been there -- they were headed out for re-fit and repair, and re-stocking of planes.
Great discussion! Congratulations on making your presentation so systematic and well structured so that it was possible to follow digressions without losing track of the main thrust of the argument. Thank you!
Personally I prefer this format. A full breakdown plus plausable alternatives I believe is more informative than "x would win outright". Warfare is fluid and odd things can not only happen but cause massive changes in outcome. See squalls in this engagement. They alone sway the outcome.
What an absolute sad choice. I got to 17:00 and knew what the ''outcome'' would be. I skipped to the end and surprise, surprise...I was right.This was NOT the alternative history to have for this battle. The real gutsy choice would be to have an alternative history based on the Japanese pushing through Taffy 3 to the landing beaches instead of withdrawing when they had the advantage. That's the Alt. history I was expecting.
I would put my money on the superior radar and fire control, followed by numerical superiority (Fletchers and Arunta). The squalls would have also amplified this former advantage. With the big boys slugging it out (BBs) those that hit first are more likely to prevail, therefore those with the superior radar and fire control win the day.
Great job! I think you dealt with this as best as it could be done, including the necessary caveats. People need to understand that this is not a 'possibility'. It's not a 'what could've happened'. It's just a fun scenario for ship geeks:) Because to change the disposition of ships, you'd have to change the reasons for that disposition and that would in turn changed the expected behavior of those commanders and units. Anyway, two minor points: 1) Unless Taffy 2 and 3 completely disappeared, they'd still provide scouting / ASW patrols for 7th fleet which they were part of. Plus, there are also scouting planes on BBs and cruisers. It's actually likely that Kurita would be discovered at the same time or even earlier because scouting / ASW arrangements around major fleet units would be far more aggressive then around escort carriers on supposedly safe flank just because those are always high value targets which will always draw enemy attention. Even if this didn't happen: 2) The reason why Kurita turned tail was that he thought that instead of transports, he found major US fleet units. Now, he'd be engaging an ACTUAL major US fleet units, so we must conclude he'd turn tail and run maybe even faster then when met with Taffy 3. Actually, it's questionable if the battle would be even joined because instead of walking right into the middle of Taffy 3, he'd see the high superstructures of US battleships and cruisers from much further away. But I understand the objective here was to have an actual fantasy battle which is indeed more interesting and more fun:) Well done on the video!
Great video, I would be very interested in how tall force 34 would have handled the center force. An alternate history scenario as to if Halsey had formed and detached TF34 and left with the carriers. This of course would require suspension of disbelief to imagine Halsey taking the carrierrs to battle what he believes to be operational carriers without the surface combatants for anti air support. But it would be probably the greatest battleship duel in history.
Definitely think the discussion on alternative outcomes is the way to go in this scenario. When you run across the simulations that consistently play out more or less the same, I think the blow-by-blow rundown is better. Keep up the good work.
I believe you will have to do an event where we do this in Warships. Believe me, this would be fun. As for how to make Tones work, let's just replace them with Myokos and give the Americans 4 New Mexico-class as they are the Standards. As for the video? I like it, even though the Texel-style is more entertaining.
@Jurassic Aviator World Of Waships sadly offers only New Mexico as the non-premium 12x14in US Standard. So it would be best to use what we have in-game
@Jurassic Aviator Dude.... Read what the freaking comment thorughly before commentig. I said as a substitiute.... And in WoWs. You seem to assume something and defend yourself by saying 'I did not talk about what the original comment was saying' The whole point is me saying that we should attempt to recreate this in a game.
This mean I have to ask how would Taffy 3 would do against Fuso, Yamashiro, Mogami and four destroyers. I suspect given the shorter odds Taffy 3 would do better than how they did in the actual battle of Samar.
Given the absolutely colossal size of the balls the commanders, captains and crews of Taffy 3 had, I would say they would probably still do alot of damage, the main question would be if the commanders of Fuso, Yamashiro and Mogami would break off the attack like the ones of centre force decided to do despite their advantages and coming close to winning the fight
Next question after that. What if Halsey had detached Alabama, Iowa, Massachusetts, New Jersey, South Dakota, and Washington and a dozen or so destroyers to block the straight as he had originally intended. A lot more radar directed 16" fire coming down on Yamato, but you don't have the swarm of destroyers and cruisers to keep the long lances away from the battle line.
I think badly. Nishimura was no Kurita; he would have pressed on no matter what. The BBs (properly fought) would have bullied their way through the CVEs, DDs, and DEs of Taffy 3. And if we're talking night battle, that means almost no aircraft, making the odds even more lopsided.
Gonzo262 The Iowas weren’t actually part of the never-formed Task Force 34, being tied to the carriers. Though it WOULD have been a smarter idea to detach them and send them somewhere where they can actually shoot at stuff bigger than aircraft.
“Never ever underestimate the power of a swarm of anger Fletchers”. Great quote for the little guy, and amazingly accurate. An individual can make a difference against extreme odds. Very entertaining “what if..”
When you're a Filipino and you see one of your favorite RUclipsrs make a video related to Filipino History; yus (also, you pronounced Yamato quite funnily, however you did a pinpoint job for some of them, although Tone sounded like Toenail)
I quite liked this style of video. I really enjoy you being a bit more "casual". And it's a great discussion, as detailed as possible in this kind of video
Great video. You asked if this format compares to your video on "the battle" of Texel and I would say it does not. This video is great and provides a much more informative and detailed analysis on how the hypothetical battle could develop. Educationally this video is far superior. However, the battle of Texel is much, much more entertaining. In that you give us a play by play of an epic battleship showdown, zooming around the battlefield(would it be battlesea?) giving us the tiniest details of epicness to grin and smile at. In this video you take almost all the "fun" out of the battle by showing the hypothetical and not giving us an actual clear, concise battle to follow. Both formats are good and well done, but to someone who really enjoyed the Texel video it would be unfair not to say that I was disappointed with the format you chose here. After all, to me these type of hypothetical alt history battles are to give us the grand battle that never took place, not to have an informed discussion on what could potentially have happened. Anyways, love your work. Peace!
You gave it the old college try. The problem I have is with this is the semi-sterility of the analysis. The US didn't fight any battle in WWII (or now) without air power.
Lovely video, thanks for that! I honestly think you should retain both formats, the action-by-action battle report and the walkthrough - they are both really informative and enjoyable, and you will probably have more of these close calls in terms of outcome...
Wonderful video! After watching it and hearing all about the almighty Fletcher swarm, I went to watch your video on the class and couldn't find one! I would love to hear about what made these destroyers so effective.
If I'm not intruding .... The title is wrong .... It should read .... 'Battle off Samar' One of the four phases that encompassed .... 'The Battle of Leyte Gulf' .... The largest land, air, sea battle of WW2 .... The others being .... 'Battle off Cape Engano' 'Battle of Surigao Strait' 'Battle of the Sibuyan Sea' Love your videos, top drawer, excellent narration .... GOOD SHOW ! TL
It's interesting that the Japanese Navy always wanted to engage in a "decisive battle," but waited and lost enough various units until they no longer had the numbers to win a decisive battle.
I would say that the IJN admirals were still shocked over the loss of the ships in the preceeding days and were unprepared to force a major engagement that could result in the loss of the main fleet firepower. No matter the other considerations of weather and technology, they would have chosen to disengage and save the fleet.
Probably, but this was wargamed out with modern people who knew the history and not the actual admirals so his results are obviously slanted towards that.
Musashi's losstook lot outofthem. Shetooka toroedohiton thesamearmored bottom platehitearlier. Steel, once distoerted, permanently losessomeofits strengt,sothearmorthat cost Japan mostofa year's productionsimply blowout, leaving the mightiest battleshipinthe worldwithan irreparable holier her bottom. Moreovershehadthe "luckies'namein the fleet as Musashi himself was a damn near invincible samurai archers sortofJapanese Ivanhoewitha long liftoff unlikely victories discredit. But,oneminut, therehewas,anda few minutes later-mherehewasn't! damaged morale!
I don't understand well why Kurita ran away in these scenarios or in history. The whole Japanese strategy was based on decisive battle doctrine. Well here's their chance to use their battleship fleet to finally show their mettle against the American fleet. Their whole point was to save the Philippines without which their supply lines were crippled leaving their navy worthless anyway. This was a nation that flew kamikazes into enemy ships. The one time a banzai charge would actually have made sense, and they didn't commit to it.
@@maemorri They had taken some pretty brutal losses considering how weak taffy-3 was in comparison, and 3rd fleet could be right over the horizon. With no good radar to give early warning of approaching ships, had kurita stayed, he could easily have gotten his fleet utterly annihilated to at best, slow down the liberation of the Philippines.
Oh this is gonna be fun... Thought I wish it was what if the task force of 4 battleships that was supposed to be there was actually there and we saw yamato dueling with an Iowa class Battleship
The Iowas would never have actually gotten that engagement. Not that it matters, because 1 NorCal and 3 South Dakotas are honestly more than enough for taking down Yamato (though I expect one of the American ships to take some damage)
I'm sure I'm not the first person to say this, but I would love to see how you and your mates do these wargaming sessions you've mentioned. Do you actually have a printed set of rules everyone follows or is it more of a homebrew system developed from combined historical study? Is all of the fighting done in your heads, or do you actually break out counters and a big map on a table or floor and move ships about? For that matter, are these scenarios played out physically, meeting at someone's house or a local gaming store, or do you do it virtually through a program like Tabletop Simulator? I for one would love to see one of these wargaming sessions and watch how you chaps do this. As a fan of both wargaming (both tabletop and computer game) and alternate histories, I think that would make a fascinating video, or possibly even livestream. And I doubt I'm alone in that interest.
I recently picked up the General Quarters 3 rules. May have to try this scenario with it eventually, given enough available play time. It's a good set of rules, balancing simulation and playability well. It also has morale checks for determining if heavily damaged units turn away and attempt to withdraw or stay and fight it out longer. A battle of this size would still take awhile to game out and a lot of space, however.
Entertaining. "If" is still the operative word. You could do this as it really happened and more than likely not come out with Taffey 3 winning the day. If it did it would be deemed as a fluke and be dismissed. Just a thought. Great job, I thourghly enjoy your hard work. Thank you.
It’s almost less amusing than this because it lacks the image of the almighty swarm of angry Fletchers spamming the shit out of the Japanese battleships with torpedoes.
Could you please do this again but with the proposed task force 34 of modern bbs to be left by Halsey. I think that would be more enticing and less external variables as you described earlier with the hood/warspite example. Also I still think you include the taffys as they were there to support troops and asw rather than antishipping. Overall I think the use of radar and the likely hood that us aircraft would be on hand to not only give warning but to attack would decidely put the decision in favor of the us especially with the experience of us destroyers gained in the south pacific to take on and maul their Japanese counter parts. Not only that but I'm fairly sure regardless of whether it's 7th fleet or Task force 34, Yamato is going to be concentrated by at least two battleships to take her out immediately. Once the battle starts with the loss of visibility and splashes of different dyes vs radar fire control and the Americans more likely to keep the distance. That and the disparity between us and Japanese destroyers in both tech, experience, and numbers it's a US win with a few losses compared to the Japanese fleet being wiped out.
The CVeswere set upforclosesupportoftheinfantryon land. They had no armor-piercingammunition.Buta lotofthe Japanesewarshipshadtheir A/Ain open gun-tubssothe planes inflict fearful damage theirvrewsMostof Yamato's A/A crewsqere slaughtered their posts!Andwhilethe 6'gunsofthe destroyers/DE'sof Taffry'sescortscoulddo little against armored warships. their auto-loadinggearletthem batterawayatthe armored shieldsonthe Japanese ship's bridges which didn't much physical damage, but raised Hellwiththe bridge crews' ,moraleand hearing!
Pinned post for Q&A :)
12 14” standard class vs 8 16” standard class in 1920, 1930, 1940 and 1945.
Are u gonna do a video on how to pronounce japanese ship names? If you are, me and my friends may be able to help you?
Drydock Q&A
If the High Seas Fleet was allowed to remain in German hands after World War One, how would it have changed German naval strategy and naval construction during the interwar years and World War Two?
How would it be affected by the Washington and London naval treaties?
What would have happened if the Cumberland had taken part in the battle of the river plate as if i'm not mistaken she was meant to be with force H but was refitting i imagine that Exeter would be quite happy to have another cruiser to help her if only because shes not going to be the only one being shot at quite so much
Considering the economic Situation of Britain after the 1. World war, what do you think would happen to the ships of the Kriegsmarine, if they hadn't been destroyed by their crew? I can't quite imagine the whole fleet going to the scrappyard
"Sure, there were six yankee battleships we didn't expect to find here, but thank GOD the Johnston is nowhere to be seen....."
The Japanese were so scared of the USS Johnston they felt it necessary to send the Yamato to sink her!
@@DarthAverage I heard the USS Johnston had to have a gun turret removed to accommodate the extra displacement of the Captains giant solid steel balls😂
Damm son where'd you find that?
New England has their own battleships?
ikr? As a person from the South, it's always amusing to go overseas and be told I am a "yankee" :-D
Yamato heavy: I Fear no man, but that thing... *nervously looks back and forth* It scares me.
silhouette of the USS Johnston zooms back and forth in the background making multiple 180 degree turns while emitting Ork WAAAAGGHH sound effects
You, Sir, made my day. Never underestimate the power of the orks with a destroyer.
Eh, Taffy 3 had something more powerful than mere battlelust and WAAAAAGH. It had the pure, and complete spite of humans placed with their back to the wall and iron resolve.
@@aquila4460 The sheer stubborn resolve of a man in command of about 270 men and a ship tasked with defending 200,000 American soldiers. Maybe thinking something like "You can shell my countrymen when you have blown my ship out from under my firmly planted feet!". It wasn't just their backs to the wall, it was the invasion force that was depending on them and they were all that was there to protect them.
MORE DAKKA!!!!
The American force would still have massive air cover during daylight, the Japanese battle line would be mess based on their prior experience with air attack earlier.
The Fletchers basically become a swarm of angry bees no matter how this battle goes.
Not the bees!
A sea FILLED with torpedoes....
biscuitninja
If only Kamchatka were there to see it...
Bees, hell. MURDER HORNETS!
@@biscuitninja Mark 14's? because if so...
I like the fact that, basically, the whole battle can be summarized by *angry Fletcher noises*.
There is a reason countries dont build battleships anymore but instead have fleets full of fleet destroyers.
Missiles and submarines are pretty strong incentives to have light cruisers or fleet destroyers ig aircraft weren't persuasive enough.
Fletchers are like honeybees of the sea. Sea bees, if you will. Mess with them or their hive, angy Fletcher noises ensue.
This was a great discussion of the alternative outcomes. I suspect this was the last battle the Japanese would have had any chance of winning, as long as winning means "we sunk more ships that you did". In terms of the overall outcome of the war, the shipyards were pouring out huge numbers of the Fletcher class and their bigger and more dangerous brothers, the Sumner and Gearing classes. Vast numbers of Cleveland light and Baltimore heavy cruisers were still coming down the ways, not to mention the fearsome Iowa class. US carriers, from escort to fleet types, were also being commissioned and stationed in the Pacific, so any Japanese warship could count on meeting not only generally superior US surface ships but being swarmed by hundreds of US aircraft.
As a final blow, the British Pacific Fleet shows up in January, 1945 with four more modern battleships, six fleet carriers, fifteen light carriers, and eleven excellent cruisers. This doesn't even take into account all the other smaller ships. The combined US and British logistic trains meant almost any ship damaged in battle could either be put back in service in a few days or made ready to sail to a rear repair area for heavier work. Japanese ships damaged really depended on whatever a crew could scrounge for repair work, all the while trying to remain camouflaged and dodging constant air attacks. By early 1945, very few ships were able to run the gauntlet of US subs to get back to mainland dockyards, and most of those they did were further damaged or sunk by allied air attacks. One can only wonder about the state of morale of many Japanese sailors in 1945. The Japanese were well and truly stuffed long before the events of August, 1945.
Two minor quibbles...
First, if Taffy 3 was sufficient to make the Japanese force turn around, a larger U.S. force was sufficient to make the Japanese force turn around-all other things being equal. The alternative scenario requires the Japanese commander’s approach to be different, namely, far more aggressive to the point of risking his entire force. The attitude actually displayed wasn’t just a matter of competence but involved being aware of what it would mean to lose the entire force that day. It reminds me of the pressure on Jellicoe, who couldn’t win the war in a day but could lose it in a day. Perhaps we should expect the Japanese commander to turn around as losses started to mount, just as happened in real life. Less interesting than modeling the slugfest, but probably more realistic.
And the other quibble: no US planes. By this point in the war the Japanese Navy had no choice but to slug it out using surface guns, but the U.S. Navy always had air support lined up. The longer the battle lasted, the more likely that U.S. planes would have tipped the balance no matter how the surface battle was playing out.
@@dogofthedesert6642 Good points. I think Drach was just modeling the slugfest, but, even with Taffy 3, it was the aircraft from the escort carriers of Taffy 1 and 2, responding to the calls for help from Taffy 3, and their near suicidal attacks, that helped convince Kurita he was under attack by the main US fleet. It was the aggressiveness of the DD's and DE's that helped convince Kurita that he was under attack by cruisers of the main US fleet and the battleships would be just over the horizon. While the US had technological advantages, it was the training, morale, and fighting spirit of the USN that turned that battle. Kurita was trying not to lose the war in a day while the men and ships he was opposing fought like they were trying to win it in a day. Had Kurita actually been opposed by the entire force of Admiral Oldendorf, the slaughter would have been horrific.
Was about to write your first point, but you saved me the trouble. Drachinifel did address it by saying the simulation assumed a willingness to fight that the Japanese commander, Kurita, did not actually show (See 15:00). I get that the goal was to get to the big gun fight, no matter how many historical counterfactuals, but this felt to me like one hand wave too many.
We know how the battle and war turns out but in real time the men on these ships felt and were encouraged to think that THIS battle and THEIR ships were fighting for lives and fighting for their country . Across the board every one felt this was do or die and no way out .Knowing that the human drama on these ships was unbelievable but to get a real picture and sense of the ACTUAL battle
And more and more forward repair capacity was being brought to the front, such as portable dry docks. The Japanese simply did not have the logistical capacity to maintain the war.
"Hello Japanese battleships, dodge this!"
Now that is going down as one of my favorites from this channels wealth of quotes.
The Slade
27:03 for future enjoyment
26:00 " _You_ know what.. *_ALL_* the Destroyers Attack..! " and what follows is glorious, along with "Angry Swarm of Fletchers"
@@bskorupk NOT THE FLETCHERS!!!!!!!!
@@treeshakertucker5840 Always a problem for me as my dog is called Fletcher!
DODGE!!! Why does everything with Japan have to turn into an anime memes?
"Never ever underestimate the firepower of an almighty swarm of angry Fletchers" - Drach
This has become a standard quote in my family.
Japanese *"Come at me bro.."*
Johnston *"Oh this is ON!"*
....
Japanese *"We were bluffing..we didn't...oh god"*
Am I the only on that read that and thought of the RVB scene where someone was beaten to death with their own skull?
Evans: Pulls out of cavalry sword and begins a boarding action against the Yamato
@American Slav " Take me closer, i want to hit them with my sword"
lmao when you start listing off the American Destroyers *THE RIDE NEVER ENDS*
"Dad I want to get off the ride"
And HMAS Arunta, as a very angry Aussie exclamation point.
I want to get off of Mr. Fletcher’s Wild Ride!
I want to get off of Mr. Fletcher’s Wild Ride!
I WANT TO GET OFF OF MR. FLETCHER’S WILD RIDE!
Imagine Admiral Kurita's face when he saw that CRAZY Train headed his way.
27 seconds listing names.
14:05 America: Yamato Op plz nerf 14:22 Japan: Radar and Smoke op plz nerf
Your typical WoWs match.
Lol
division with T5 lolz
*Kremlin enters game and throws Premium Russkie Vodka at everybody thus ending game*
That pfp... you have good tastes.
27:10 LUL! Truth 2019 - "Never ever underestimate the firepower of an almighty swarm of angry Fletchers."
Fletcher's: Flood the sea with wall of skills, Falalalala-lalalala!
[TORPEDOBEATS INTENSIFY]
@@nicholas209 *DEJA VU*
'Tis the season to poke holes, falalalala lalalala.
The mad man actually did it.
Love battle reports. I like this format more than the last one as it really goes through the different possibilities better.
I like this style of videos, however, I adore the Texel-style. It makes for a far better video, especially if you do the outtakes at the end
I like both they both have their place. When you have one that is so one sided then yes the Texal style of video is great. Basically, let the wargame outcome determine the style of video.
Both styles are good. I slightly prefer this style, as it focusses more on the possibilities, instead of one scenario.
Swarm of angry Fletchers. Think I will use that in conversation.
I second that
Remember the Japanese haven't had gunnery training a proper maintenance on that fire control systems for a year. That's why they couldn't hit anything.
@@jamesricker3997 yeah and they were constantly maneuvering to avoid the air attacks from the escort carriers
“I fear no man... but those THINGS”
*closeup of a group of Fletchers*
“They scare me”
I'm new to all this, why we're the Fletchers so good and feared? If anyone doesn't mind telling me cheers ☠️💀
My college professor back in 1968 was a LT on the admiral's staff of Taffy 3. When I asked him what the reaction was when the pagoda masts were spotted. He chuckled and said, "The head did a land office business." More than that, I could get no comment.
what does that mean, the head did a land office business
It implies there was a mad rush (like gold miners filing mine claims in the government land office) to use the bathrooms (called head on a ship).
David Rowley everyone shit their pants.
A good day to wear the brown pants!
@@species3167 that guy knows what’s up, he’s wearing the brown pants
7th fleet sends out a distress call the Johnston comes charging down “come here boy”
Don’t forget the Sammie B following the Johnston in, 😂
Ryan Grider yeah
7th fleet sends out a distress call, the Johnston and Samuel B. Roberts say hold my beer. This won't take long.
@@ramal5708 could you imagine if the crews of the Samuel B Roberts and the Johnston go for boarding one of the Japanese Battleships like it's the days of the Ships of the Line, them steaming into Pearl Harbor having captured a Japanese battlewagon
F77k i am out here!!
Which format to use probably depends on how you and your wargaming friends determine the battle is likely to go down. If the playtests show generally similar outcomes then a detailed timeline format would be the way to go. In cases like this one, where the possible outcomes are too widely varied for a single outcome to be determined, a walkthrough like this one discussing the various game-breakers and workable tactics for each side to use to win works better.
It also keeps these videos from getting to formulaic and (if the term can ever be applied to talking about battleships doing their thing) boring...
Favourite line : “here's 250 torpedoes dodge that” , very good in depth look at a complex scenario & another great video . Keep up the good work , I enjoy the classic British humor with your vids.
Two comments:
1. When I was running cruiser-destroyer battles in my college wargames club, I used to rate Brooklyns and Clevelands as heavy cruisers for game-balance purposes, and it came out about right.
2. There's one other alternate Samar scenario you should think about: Center Force vs. the fast battleships of TF34.
Second the TF34 scenario. Assume Halsey stayed on the New Jersey and took it with the carriers: That leaves the highly regarded Admiral Lee on Washington, with Alabama, Iowa, Massachusetts, South Dakota, and say... five cruisers and 14 destroyers for company. How does that force stack up against the Yamato and friends?
@@treyhelms5282 - They also had the New Jersey so the same number of battleships as this scenario for the Americans, two fewer cruisers, and fewer destroyers, but those 6 battleships are modern battleships. Unless the pre-battleship battle goes heavily in Japan's favor and then they are able to get a good long lance attack against the American BB's putting a couple out of action, I think the Americans stuff the Japanese in the main line of battle action. They would IMO still have the battleship advantage even if Musashi had made it.
@@timwf11b Yeah, I'm thinking since Halsey and his staff were aboard the New Jersey, he would take her with the carriers. (the added AAA and surface action insurance could be a bonus)
@@treyhelms5282 And why a "carrier admiral" was flying his flag in a BB has always puzzled me. Presumably, New Jersey had lavish flag accommodations.
@@erichammer2751 Yeah, maybe Drach or someone else really knowledgeable knows. Dunno what criteria admirals choose their flagships? Like Halsey on NJ, and Kurita on Atago?
Taffy 3 Vs Southern Force? That would only give the Johnston a free BB kill.
Would they go for the kill or would Commander Evans be seen proudly standing on the bridge of the Fuso, after his crew swarmed the ship?
@@JediKnight19852002 I think they would go for the kill, It's the Fuso and Yamashiro we are talking about so they probably eat the entire salvo of torpedoes and blow up.
That said, I would pay good money to see Evans leading any kind of boarding action.
@@santiago5388 hah, were sailors even trained in boarding actions by this point? this isn't nelson's royal navy we're talking about, and i doubt a ship as small as a fletcher would carry a contingent of marines.
oldfrend
There were WWII boarding actions.
And if Samar tells us anything, Evans was great at improvising.
@@JediKnight19852002 Whilst waving a cutlass screaming "I shall not be trifled with ".
Two things stand out to me in this alternate history. Where are the planes? If the Taffy groups were unmolested the US battle line would have definitely called in their support. Also, we need to remember the IJN crews were TIRED. They have been on battle stations or close to it most of the last 2 days. Constant threats and alarms means very little sleep.
If the Taffy groups or other carriers intervene you not only have a slug fest but more harassment from air attacks that will make a mess of IJN formations and tactical cohesiveness. That would raise the odds much more in favor of the USN as IJN ships are dodging air and surface attacks while USN ships are only worried about surface attacks. Also, air attacks could take out a couple of the major IJN units swinging the surface balance more in favor of the USN.
Halsey'sfastcarrier forehead been turnedbackbythe time taffy's last stand-a swarm of very angrytorpedobombersandivebomberswouldsurelyhavecaughtthe center Forcetryingto withdraw-even if they'd raised Helloffthe landing beaches. Butifthey'dg otto within gun rangeofthe landing beaches, there'dhavebeen a LOTof dead sailors floating thBayand dozens wrecked LSTand AK'sburningon the beaches, havingtriedto "fight as shore emplacements with olsWW1surplus6"gunson tin-cladfreightersagainst armored warships!
A lot of details were omitted just for the sake of the scenario to play out. I'm not saying that details are unimportant, but sometimes one just wants to fast-forward to the good part!
I tend to agree here. In the actual battle, with all respect to the mad destroyermen, it was the 250+ sorties by Taffy 2 and Taffy 3 that persuaded Kurita to turn back. Moreover, it was arguably the right decision, as his surviving force would have been under constant air attack if they had pushed on. And it was aircraft that did for Musashi, after all (as well as Yamato later).
Where are the PT boats?
There's Yukikaze, IJN cannot win
And also Yukikaze would survive without casualties, as always.
Darjeeling‘s 183 spectator ship with invincibility cheats
So, here's a hypothetical. What if Yukikaze and Shigure operated together given that they both stole the luck of the ships around them? Does Yukikaze's stronger luck win out, do they cancel each other out making them both ordinary, or does something really weird happen like both of them end up with no luck and it gets bounced back to the rest of the task force they're operating in?
lunatickoala everything that can go wrong, goes wrong, except on the Yukikaze and Shigure, they’ll be fine
@@lunatickoala Well Yukikaze has stroger luck, so I think she would survive XD
Oh shit the two lucky ships, they would be derping on the enemy ships while retreating lol
I like how many of the scenarios end with the opposing fleet being devoured by angry Fletchers.
"Never underestimate a swarm of angry Fletchers"
Just three DDs and an escort held 'em off in reality; a swarm would be Hell.
Yamato would have died there instead of heading towards Okinawa.
Also it really seemed like you were struggling to give the IJN a fighting chance. Especially concerning the gunnery; your video about Samar last week mentioned specifically that optics like the ones the Japanese relied on weren't as useful in maneuvering and so they tended to more or less plod on or make grand, broad sweeps, while American ships with their fire control systems and radar would be more free to throw off the aim of the enemy ships with maneuvers while simultaneously keeping up more accurate return fire. Granted, the 21-knots of the Standard BBs would have not been as effective at that, but it's still something I don't recall you mentioning here.
Plus there's also the question of what if the American recognized that the Yamato was the biggest threat and concentrated fire on her early-on to take her out, or at least render her ineffective? 14" and 16" might not be enough to sink her, but throw enough firepower at the superstructure and those vaunted optics of the Yamato won't be seeing enough to aim those overcompensating guns. I mean, you can't look through optics that are sitting on the deck because the superstructure supporting them was blasted away. And that's not even taking into account Kurita's half-assed direction of the battle.
Granted, it'd be bloody on both sides; no way that the old battlewagons would have gotten away Scot-free, nor the cruisers, but the ending really isn't very likely to be anything but "Japan loses" unless you postulate some really big ifs.
If I was in charge of the US I don't see why you would not try the destroyer swarm. You have so many and it gives you plenty of time to get the larger ships organized I don't see why that would not be what is done.
The japanese wouldn’t even have tried to fight. The moment they encounter the US force, they would have tried to withdraw and the US DD’s would have bumrushed them to try to prevent them from making it out alive.
There was also the fact that he somehow inserted Takao and Myoko into the Japanese heavy cruiser force when both ships had actually turned back to port due to damage by that time. No idea how no one caught that.
@TJ Bowman All those destroyers would be making smoke all the while the fire control systems would remain locked on and tracking the targets, 5" guns blazing and reading off range and heading to the torpedo fire control computer. It would have been glorious!
it wasn't JUST the dds that turned kurita back. i'd argue it was at least half the constant aircraft harassment, even though most of the actual damage was due to the dds. the taffies were composed of 16 CVEs and 400 aircraft, similar in number to the pearl harbor strike force. in the fog of war kurita probably couldn't accurately assess the source of all his damage suffered, but with that many planes constantly buzzing him it was completely reasonable for him to assume there were fleet carriers in the area. it was an underrated fact of american industrial might that by this time in the war a fleet of american escort carriers could put up an air attack bigger than a group of japanese fleet carriers.
of course the biggest reason for his turning back was his own incompetence, but the planes were a large part of what scared him off.
It wasn't just surface search radar. It was also radar fire control systems, something the Japanese completely lacked. The Yamato's radar was only a surface search set. All the "old" battleships and most of the cruisers and destroyers were equipped with varying numbers of Mark 37 GFCS directors tied back into the Ford 1A computer and Mk 6 Stable Element, all being controlled through the plotting table in the Combat Information Center. The only hope for the Japanese was to drive into as close a range as possible. The US GFCS radars were only about as effective as Japanese optical directors at close range. The further the range, the more rapidly the Japanese would be smothered by the radar controlled gunfire from US fleet.
Even the Long Lance didn't have the advantages they did two years earlier as improvements in sonar and radars on the US were able to detect the firing and path of the torpedoes while broadcasting the data to the other ships in the fleet. Even this advantage was negated by rainge, so closer range on the part of the Japanese gives them their best chance of survival wile damaging and sinking US ships.
This was my major issue with the play through as well. The IJN Battleline did almost no damage with sustained fire against some jeep carriers and destroyers. IF the IJN can get the hits then sure it is going to wreck things, but the USN at this time was almost hitting their first salvo. The IJN is going to die gloriously, instead of running away this time.
@TJ Bowman confirmed, AND speculative?
The hit is confirmed as being from a battleship, but it was assumed to be from one of the Kongo class as the Yamato was "too far away", but more recently translated japanese records indicate that neither of the Kongo class or the nagato were firing at that ship, leaving Yamato as the probable source despite the extreme range.
The hit was also technically a near miss that traveled underwater and detonated under the keel of the CVE in question.
but IJN shells were specifically designed to make this sort of hit possible, with long delay fuses and a shell shape that was optimized to maximize underwater travel distance. (To the detriment of their performance against lightly armored surface targets. A lot of shells at the battle of samar passed all the way through the DD's & DE's before detonating.)
The Iowas by comparison got several near misses at an even longer range at Truk, but failed to do significant damage, and are generally not considered in people's " longest hit ever" comparisons.
Good point. I believe, and am too lazy to check, at the Battle of Surigao Strait, West Virginia '44 hit Yamashiro with her first salvo and the other old American BBs quickly keyed in. Radar was decisive.
The Brooklyn class cruisers would have been a game changer in this fight. They had the most recent radar, they had 3 extra 6inch barrels over the Cleveland's and the ammunition loading process was mostly automatic. Allowing them to absolutely pour fire non stop. The Boise and Helena(A different class but a half sister nonetheless) proved this in 42/43. They did have light armor but its hard to fight back when 6inch shells are walking up and down your decks and wrecking everything. Lastly, I don't think the Fletchers and the one Tribal class would have ever stopped firing the main batteries. Fire whatever guns you can bring to bear. And keep firing till either you sink, the barrels melt or the magazines are empty. The Japanese fleet would have been absolutely been buried under waves of 4.5, 5inch and 6inch fire. Add in some 8inch and 14, 16 inch fire for good measure.
Yamato commander: "Oh hai Standard battleships, welcome to dinner!" Admiral Kurita: "Where's the invasion fleet. Hang on, we didn't expect this."
God that Americans and the rain part. Cracks me up. Thanks for the dry humor.
Rimmi Peepsicles
Wow for over 11 months no one realizes that while you mentioned how the Americans abusing cover and concealment, you said rain and then you thanked Drach for his DRY humor. Just wow
As a retired history teacher. I really love your channel. These "What If" situations are very entertaining. I appreciate the effort you made in making them.
You magnificent Brit this is amazing!!!
As a lover of alternative history I thank you.
Both styles of videos have their place. Let the war game decide which type of video you should produce.
BTW as a former American "small boy" sailor I absolutely love the "swarm of angry Fletchers" and other comments regarding the sheer courage of the American destroyer screen. Bravo good sir.
Johnson's skipperwasa Cherokee indian. The triberesurrectedoneoftheancientearriorsocietiesespeciallyfor him! John Paul Joneswouldhavebeen proud!
@@charleschapman6810 Wouldn't anyone who could claim any connection to him be proud. A true hero.
I have watched the Texel video couple of times, and I have to say that I enjoyed it more, but not because quality of making, but the circumstances of scenarios. At Texel both sides would have had a plan ( I guess) and technology was for the both sides was similar, while alternate Samar has too many "what if's". At Texel both sides would have had full armament, fuel, commands structure and one general site of battle with bad weather (allways). At alternate Samar you have number of battles on large area, with different commanders and goals etc.
What I am trying to say is that I might be more fun making a video about scenarios where conditions are better known and scenario plays differently from real event by a single flip of a coin then rolling a dice and letting it play out. For example if the Scharnhorst would not has lost its radar at North Cape early on or if Prince of Wales and Repulse would have gone unspotted by the Japanes and returned to Singapore to fight another day.
Love the channel, keep at the good work.
P.S I have suggested before, but if you ever get around and find it interesting, the British Navy at the Baltic during and after WW1 is a toppic that would easylly be made into an episode in it self. You have submarines operating against germans, torpedo boats sinking russians, espionage, royal navy saving estonia from Soviet fleet, L55 submarine ending in the hands of the russians, submarines scutteled of Finland, etc.
You are a gamer and not into the reality of the conflicts. Real men lived and died in the battles you mention with no feeling for them. Just my thought of you.
@@73Trident Oi man chill bruv. Your feeling get hurt?
10:15 "...and then you have one crazy battleship that thinks it's an oversized destroyer and charges the straight down the middle."
+flambass is that you on two brothers?
As distinct from the USS Johnston, the crazy destroyer that thought it was an undersized battleship.
@@amrak63 Lol I was thinking about that.
@@amrak63 The Johnston didn't think itself an underszied Battleship.
The Johnston thought itself, the only battleship on the seas.
Great video. The "destroyer spam" comment cracked me up, lol. These new battle vids you've been doing are great. I hope to see more.
"Swarm of angry Fletcher's" brilliant! A very interesting piece, certainly fascinating.
🙀 This week on "Quantum Leap." Sam Leaps into Admiral Oldendorf in Oct. 1944.....
A very interesting scenario. Theres so much that could happen to change the outcome by a little to a lot. I can understand how hard it was to do this episode when you had so much (possible events) that could change the outcome.
By this point in the war it was recognized by USN tacticians that radar gunnery held THE advantage, so that, in the event of a surface-force encounter, the primary role of the destroyer screen would be to lay down a smokescreen, from which the blue force units would shoot.
Blindfire capability was highly prized in late '44, as Adm. "Ching" Lee was a major proponent and very influential after his decisive victory at the 2nd Naval Battle of Guadalcanal.
Another factor not really talked about here is the fact that, although all of the USN battleships were pre and contemporary World War I construction, California, West Virginia and Tennessee were almost complete rebuilds. They sported greatly-upgraded fire-control, armor, secondary batteries, torpedo defense, communications and everything else that might be found in a modern US battleship. The West Virginia and Maryland also had the advantage of shipping USNs 2700lb. 16" projectile, which was incredibly destructive (claimed by BuOrd to be the equivalent of the USN 18" weapon contemplated in the 1920s and '30s).
Given all of these factors, I would put 7th Fleet's chances in this engagement at: Better than average....................
Add to that the quality, or lack thereof, of the Yamato's armor. Postwar tests concluded that Japans steel wasn't all that great with a high degree of impurities. Another postwar test pitted a sample of leftover armor vs a armor piercing 16" projectile. The projectile tore through the armor and was lost in the Potomac River.
OTOH, Pennsylvania's f/c was so bad she didn't even fire a shot a Surigao Strait. Granted, there weren't many targets left by the time it got to her place in line.
@@erichammer2751 You said it at the end, they didn't have to shoot.
They had the Mark 1 16'', which was not equal to the 18 " in penetration. The Mark 7, in the iowa, was claimed to be almost as powerful as the 18", which is very impressive. There is a video in the New Jersey Channel, with drachnifel, where they show the difference in size of this rounds. The 18 " would still have much bigger bursting charge, though. The real advantage for the americans here would be the radars, the amount of destroyers and the computers and radars to find a firing solution, i think. Also, it's hard to believe that at this stage of the war, such a big battle would be fought without any American aircraft carrier around .
Do another one where Lee's battleships are still guarding the approach off Samar!
Rener De Castro Fun idea, but a night battle there (starting at night anyway) with the first thing the Japanese would have known being torpedo hits followed by long-range super-heavy 16" salvos they couldn't answer, then heavy air attacks starting at dawn... maybe not so interesting.
@@stevebloom55 You're forgetting that this scenario would have had the Iowa fighting the Yamato, something a lot of enthusiasts still talk about to this day.
@@RenerDeCastro They wouldn't be fighting so much as Iowa getting target practice. The encounter would have begun at night, radar detection and targeting would have taken center stage and Yamato may have had a basic radar set, but it would be nothing technically compared to what Iowa was equipped with, as well as *vastly* superior operators on Iowa. Before Yamato even knew they were there, never mind the rest of centerforce, they would be on the receiving end of a hailstorm of 16" shells blasting the deck and everything on it to hell.
Especially since Lee's task force would have had its own "swarm of angry Fletchers".
@@RenerDeCastro Except for the fact that none of the Iowas would have been there.
Samar has been a wargaming focus for me for over 20 years. When the rules are adjusted for realistic weapons behaviour, the historical scenario almost always plays out as actually occurred.
The scenario you are looking to do here, was actually far more likely than the battle against Taffy Three that actually occurred. Digging thru the Seventh Fleet Oporder for the invasion, I happened across the patrol plans for the seaplane wing. Turns out that a Catalina was scheduled to make a daily run straight up the east coast of Samar, but on this day it had aborted and did not fly. If it had been up as planned, it would have picked up Center Force long before it reached Taffy Three, providing enough warning for the Taffys to clear to the east and configure anti ship strikes about the same time Center Force clears the south east corner of Samar and walks into the 7th Fleet gunline hiding to the west.
Quality of the fleet commanders must count for something. I'd pick Oldendorf as the more pugnacious over Kurita, hence he would probably use far more aggressive tactics, i.e. massed destroyer attack supported by cruisers with the battleships in reserve as overwatch.
Know I'm in for something good everytime I get an upload notification for your channel, keep up the good work brother,
best description of a world of warships match ever
17:13
The opening phase, where the Japanese come steaming over the horizon, screaming "Omae wa mou shindeiru!" while everyone in the American fleet goes "Ah shit, here we go again."
Also I like the Texel style better. Just seems cooler, especially the outtakes.
37:59 This picture made me crack up for some reason 😂
Poor japanese, always getting swarmed by angry Fletchers.
30:13 The image of the US battleships hiding in the rain squall while blasting the Japanese silly.
Epic exploration of the scenarios possible. That was damn entertaining and illuminating.
American destroyer fleets: because overkill is an often underrated achievement.
Are you suggesting that there is such a thing as too many fletchers? Impossible.
@@legogenius1667 Fletchers, nothing, Bensons will work quite well in quantity, too.
So basically whatever happens, the fletchers will descend upon the Yamato like a pack of rabid dogs.
I had the privilege of being a boot ensign in Heermann in1955 and her gun boss when we decommissioned her on the 20th of December 1957. I have always said that she was the ship that I liked most. My XO taught me how to be a Naval Officer. He retired as a Read Admiral. I look back at the good times and the bad time with equal pleasure. She was a very good ship. Too bad the Argentinians mad razor blades from her remains. She would have made a very good monument ship.
A very interesting and thought provoking video Drachinifel
There are so many variables in this it is very much a case of 'Viewer pick your favorite possibility.'
The fact you took out the very poor decisions of the Japanese admirals really help their forces.
Loved how you showed just how decisive an advantage technology can give one side in the right circumstances, especially when that edge in pronounced.
Also, thank you for pointing out just how dangerous the Japanese long lance torpedoes were to the ships carrying them. Liquid oxygen and shell fire is a devastatingly bad combination which too few people realize.
Another possible "What If" scenario to do would be" What if Beatty's signals officer didn't mess up at the Battle of Dogger Bank and the British BC's were able to chase the German BC's down.
Given what I know of the history of Leyte Gulf, you had to make some MAJOR assumptions and limitations to bring about a good old-fashioned battleship brawl. And I don't mean that as criticism in any way - you HAD to limit the scope and forces involved, otherwise there were just too many factors to account for, to even get to the point of the "fun" part of a BB brawl.
Such as, I can't imagine a scenario, at this stage of the war, where the USN wouldn't have had dedicated air cover and support for this large a force, from at least one or two of the Taffy groups, if we wanted to be as realistic as possible.
I can imagine poor old Kurita, with the way he reacted historically, facing a handful of DD's and escort carriers plus being under constant air attack, having a complete mental breakdown. Faced with 6 BB's, 8 cruisers, and enough DD's for every day of the month, PLUS air attack from one or more of the Taffy groups, he would have just said "NOPE" and hightailed it out of Dodge.
At that, I quite enjoyed the way you covered this, with the possible different outcomes and strategies, and the explanations as to why.
Exactly
Like Drach said, don't sweat the small stuff! Fast forward to the good part!
To be fair he thought it was Cruisers escorting Fleet Carriers. Simply having actual fleet carriers or battleships there for reference might make him significantly less inept.
IF things had gone as planned -- at least 2 of the Taffys wouldn't have been there -- they were headed out for re-fit and repair, and re-stocking of planes.
No aircraft,major flaw
Great discussion! Congratulations on making your presentation so systematic and well structured so that it was possible to follow digressions without losing track of the main thrust of the argument. Thank you!
Thank you for the erudition and clarity in elucidating naval military history.
Personally I prefer this format. A full breakdown plus plausable alternatives I believe is more informative than "x would win outright". Warfare is fluid and odd things can not only happen but cause massive changes in outcome. See squalls in this engagement. They alone sway the outcome.
What an absolute sad choice. I got to 17:00 and knew what the ''outcome'' would be. I skipped to the end and surprise, surprise...I was right.This was NOT the alternative history to have for this battle. The real gutsy choice would be to have an alternative history based on the Japanese pushing through Taffy 3 to the landing beaches instead of withdrawing when they had the advantage. That's the Alt. history I was expecting.
I would put my money on the superior radar and fire control, followed by numerical superiority (Fletchers and Arunta). The squalls would have also amplified this former advantage.
With the big boys slugging it out (BBs) those that hit first are more likely to prevail, therefore those with the superior radar and fire control win the day.
I like this format,,, I would have no problem listening to longer doc's in this format,, thumbs up on this one..
Great job! I think you dealt with this as best as it could be done, including the necessary caveats. People need to understand that this is not a 'possibility'. It's not a 'what could've happened'. It's just a fun scenario for ship geeks:) Because to change the disposition of ships, you'd have to change the reasons for that disposition and that would in turn changed the expected behavior of those commanders and units.
Anyway, two minor points:
1) Unless Taffy 2 and 3 completely disappeared, they'd still provide scouting / ASW patrols for 7th fleet which they were part of. Plus, there are also scouting planes on BBs and cruisers. It's actually likely that Kurita would be discovered at the same time or even earlier because scouting / ASW arrangements around major fleet units would be far more aggressive then around escort carriers on supposedly safe flank just because those are always high value targets which will always draw enemy attention.
Even if this didn't happen:
2) The reason why Kurita turned tail was that he thought that instead of transports, he found major US fleet units. Now, he'd be engaging an ACTUAL major US fleet units, so we must conclude he'd turn tail and run maybe even faster then when met with Taffy 3. Actually, it's questionable if the battle would be even joined because instead of walking right into the middle of Taffy 3, he'd see the high superstructures of US battleships and cruisers from much further away.
But I understand the objective here was to have an actual fantasy battle which is indeed more interesting and more fun:) Well done on the video!
drachinifel, i love your channel. been waiting for this type of video for so long!
Great video, I would be very interested in how tall force 34 would have handled the center force. An alternate history scenario as to if Halsey had formed and detached TF34 and left with the carriers. This of course would require suspension of disbelief to imagine Halsey taking the carrierrs to battle what he believes to be operational carriers without the surface combatants for anti air support. But it would be probably the greatest battleship duel in history.
Definitely think the discussion on alternative outcomes is the way to go in this scenario. When you run across the simulations that consistently play out more or less the same, I think the blow-by-blow rundown is better.
Keep up the good work.
I believe you will have to do an event where we do this in Warships. Believe me, this would be fun. As for how to make Tones work, let's just replace them with Myokos and give the Americans 4 New Mexico-class as they are the Standards. As for the video? I like it, even though the Texel-style is more entertaining.
@Jurassic Aviator World Of Waships sadly offers only New Mexico as the non-premium 12x14in US Standard. So it would be best to use what we have in-game
@Jurassic Aviator Dude.... Read what the freaking comment thorughly before commentig. I said as a substitiute.... And in WoWs. You seem to assume something and defend yourself by saying 'I did not talk about what the original comment was saying' The whole point is me saying that we should attempt to recreate this in a game.
Great job! I know you said this was difficult, but I really enjoyed this walk-through.
This mean I have to ask how would Taffy 3 would do against Fuso, Yamashiro, Mogami and four destroyers. I suspect given the shorter odds Taffy 3 would do better than how they did in the actual battle of Samar.
Given the absolutely colossal size of the balls the commanders, captains and crews of Taffy 3 had, I would say they would probably still do alot of damage, the main question would be if the commanders of Fuso, Yamashiro and Mogami would break off the attack like the ones of centre force decided to do despite their advantages and coming close to winning the fight
Next question after that. What if Halsey had detached Alabama, Iowa, Massachusetts, New Jersey, South Dakota, and Washington and a dozen or so destroyers to block the straight as he had originally intended. A lot more radar directed 16" fire coming down on Yamato, but you don't have the swarm of destroyers and cruisers to keep the long lances away from the battle line.
@@GOPGonzo Realistically that means the Japanese are most assuredly stuffed.
I think badly. Nishimura was no Kurita; he would have pressed on no matter what. The BBs (properly fought) would have bullied their way through the CVEs, DDs, and DEs of Taffy 3. And if we're talking night battle, that means almost no aircraft, making the odds even more lopsided.
Gonzo262
The Iowas weren’t actually part of the never-formed Task Force 34, being tied to the carriers. Though it WOULD have been a smarter idea to detach them and send them somewhere where they can actually shoot at stuff bigger than aircraft.
“Never ever underestimate the power of a swarm of anger Fletchers”. Great quote for the little guy, and amazingly accurate. An individual can make a difference against extreme odds.
Very entertaining “what if..”
When you're a Filipino and you see one of your favorite RUclipsrs make a video related to Filipino History;
yus
(also, you pronounced Yamato quite funnily, however you did a pinpoint job for some of them, although Tone sounded like Toenail)
I quite liked this style of video. I really enjoy you being a bit more "casual". And it's a great discussion, as detailed as possible in this kind of video
Great video. You asked if this format compares to your video on "the battle" of Texel and I would say it does not. This video is great and provides a much more informative and detailed analysis on how the hypothetical battle could develop. Educationally this video is far superior. However, the battle of Texel is much, much more entertaining. In that you give us a play by play of an epic battleship showdown, zooming around the battlefield(would it be battlesea?) giving us the tiniest details of epicness to grin and smile at. In this video you take almost all the "fun" out of the battle by showing the hypothetical and not giving us an actual clear, concise battle to follow. Both formats are good and well done, but to someone who really enjoyed the Texel video it would be unfair not to say that I was disappointed with the format you chose here. After all, to me these type of hypothetical alt history battles are to give us the grand battle that never took place, not to have an informed discussion on what could potentially have happened. Anyways, love your work. Peace!
WOWs is not real, it's a game. We are talking real ships and men's lives.
I very much liked this format
Great Job
You gave it the old college try. The problem I have is with this is the semi-sterility of the analysis. The US didn't fight any battle in WWII (or now) without air power.
so where was the airpower at Savo Island?
In the dark as it was at night. This battle was in the day.
01Z06guy Also way different period of the war. Massive air power resources were present in this fight.
Christian Hoffmann the Japanese had it, a float plane
I very much enjoyed this format, and look forward to seeing more of it in the future.
An interesting alternate history: Task Force 34 being formed and left to guard the straight when Halsey left to go after the carriers.
That was a lot of fun. Well done!
"I can see them they can't see me
I feel out of sight
I can see them they can't see me
Much to my delight" Nice to be here, Moody Blues
Lovely video, thanks for that! I honestly think you should retain both formats, the action-by-action battle report and the walkthrough - they are both really informative and enjoyable, and you will probably have more of these close calls in terms of outcome...
Wonderful video! After watching it and hearing all about the almighty Fletcher swarm, I went to watch your video on the class and couldn't find one! I would love to hear about what made these destroyers so effective.
If I'm not intruding .... The title is wrong ....
It should read ....
'Battle off Samar'
One of the four phases that encompassed ....
'The Battle of Leyte Gulf' .... The largest land, air, sea battle of WW2 ....
The others being ....
'Battle off Cape Engano'
'Battle of Surigao Strait'
'Battle of the Sibuyan Sea'
Love your videos, top drawer, excellent narration ....
GOOD SHOW !
TL
It's interesting that the Japanese Navy always wanted to engage in a "decisive battle," but waited and lost enough various units until they no longer had the numbers to win a decisive battle.
I liked it as the outcome is uncertain in every scenario and you explain it well
I would say that the IJN admirals were still shocked over the loss of the ships in the preceeding days and were unprepared to force a major engagement that could result in the loss of the main fleet firepower. No matter the other considerations of weather and technology, they would have chosen to disengage and save the fleet.
Probably, but this was wargamed out with modern people who knew the history and not the actual admirals so his results are obviously slanted towards that.
If only a scenario had been selected that was in some way possible. This one wasn't. Just to start, where were the Taffys?
Musashi's losstook lot outofthem. Shetooka toroedohiton thesamearmored bottom platehitearlier. Steel, once distoerted, permanently losessomeofits strengt,sothearmorthat cost Japan mostofa year's productionsimply blowout, leaving the mightiest battleshipinthe worldwithan irreparable holier her bottom. Moreovershehadthe "luckies'namein the fleet as Musashi himself was a damn near invincible samurai archers sortofJapanese Ivanhoewitha long liftoff unlikely victories discredit. But,oneminut, therehewas,anda few minutes later-mherehewasn't! damaged morale!
I don't understand well why Kurita ran away in these scenarios or in history. The whole Japanese strategy was based on decisive battle doctrine. Well here's their chance to use their battleship fleet to finally show their mettle against the American fleet. Their whole point was to save the Philippines without which their supply lines were crippled leaving their navy worthless anyway. This was a nation that flew kamikazes into enemy ships. The one time a banzai charge would actually have made sense, and they didn't commit to it.
@@maemorri They had taken some pretty brutal losses considering how weak taffy-3 was in comparison, and 3rd fleet could be right over the horizon. With no good radar to give early warning of approaching ships, had kurita stayed, he could easily have gotten his fleet utterly annihilated to at best, slow down the liberation of the Philippines.
Great video! Format worked just fine. Great thought exercise.
Oh this is gonna be fun... Thought I wish it was what if the task force of 4 battleships that was supposed to be there was actually there and we saw yamato dueling with an Iowa class Battleship
antoine kanel That would have been 3 South Dakotas and a North Carolina if memory serves.
The Iowas would never have actually gotten that engagement.
Not that it matters, because 1 NorCal and 3 South Dakotas are honestly more than enough for taking down Yamato (though I expect one of the American ships to take some damage)
That would be 2 Iowas and 2 Sodaks. They were pulled to assist Taffy 3 after Halsey recieved the Memo.
@@jayvee8502 Source?
@@73Trident Wiki
I like your videos. Thanks for the hard work.
"Hello japanese battleships,
"Dodge THIS!"
I'm sure I'm not the first person to say this, but I would love to see how you and your mates do these wargaming sessions you've mentioned. Do you actually have a printed set of rules everyone follows or is it more of a homebrew system developed from combined historical study? Is all of the fighting done in your heads, or do you actually break out counters and a big map on a table or floor and move ships about? For that matter, are these scenarios played out physically, meeting at someone's house or a local gaming store, or do you do it virtually through a program like Tabletop Simulator?
I for one would love to see one of these wargaming sessions and watch how you chaps do this. As a fan of both wargaming (both tabletop and computer game) and alternate histories, I think that would make a fascinating video, or possibly even livestream. And I doubt I'm alone in that interest.
I place money on all the above
I recently picked up the General Quarters 3 rules. May have to try this scenario with it eventually, given enough available play time. It's a good set of rules, balancing simulation and playability well. It also has morale checks for determining if heavily damaged units turn away and attempt to withdraw or stay and fight it out longer. A battle of this size would still take awhile to game out and a lot of space, however.
I’ve listened to this so many times. I each time I enjoy it.
Wow... great discussion! However, as I watched I kept thinking... "But Taffy 3..."
Love the channel and the visuals!!!
Entertaining.
"If" is still the operative word.
You could do this as it really happened and more than likely not come out with Taffey 3 winning the day. If it did it would be deemed as a fluke and be dismissed.
Just a thought.
Great job, I thourghly enjoy your hard work. Thank you.
A tough call. Nice analysis.
I would love to see a review of the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal.
This video was money. Keep up the good work.
I want to see an Alternate history where Task Force 34 is guarding the San Bernardino Strait when the Center Force emerges.
You asked and ye have received
@@aaronstorey9712 Just big Ls for Japan
It’s almost less amusing than this because it lacks the image of the almighty swarm of angry Fletchers spamming the shit out of the Japanese battleships with torpedoes.
I always enjoy your content. Thx
I was waiting for a "That's a nice fleet there IJN, be a shame if someone Torpedoed it."
Nicely done. There are many permutations. The squall effect is of particular interest, but overall.... lots and lots of wreckage on both sides.
Can just imagine those Fletchers going in to the sound of *mikemikemikemikemikemikemikemikemikemikemikemikemikemike* lol
Minemineminemine.
Fletchers : Minemineminemineminemineminemineminemineminemine
Yamato: No god please no, no, no, noooooooooo
Great work sir! I loved it.
Could you please do this again but with the proposed task force 34 of modern bbs to be left by Halsey. I think that would be more enticing and less external variables as you described earlier with the hood/warspite example.
Also I still think you include the taffys as they were there to support troops and asw rather than antishipping.
Overall I think the use of radar and the likely hood that us aircraft would be on hand to not only give warning but to attack would decidely put the decision in favor of the us especially with the experience of us destroyers gained in the south pacific to take on and maul their Japanese counter parts. Not only that but I'm fairly sure regardless of whether it's 7th fleet or Task force 34, Yamato is going to be concentrated by at least two battleships to take her out immediately. Once the battle starts with the loss of visibility and splashes of different dyes vs radar fire control and the Americans more likely to keep the distance. That and the disparity between us and Japanese destroyers in both tech, experience, and numbers it's a US win with a few losses compared to the Japanese fleet being wiped out.
The CVeswere set upforclosesupportoftheinfantryon land. They had no armor-piercingammunition.Buta lotofthe Japanesewarshipshadtheir A/Ain open gun-tubssothe planes inflict fearful damage theirvrewsMostof Yamato's A/A crewsqere slaughtered their posts!Andwhilethe 6'gunsofthe destroyers/DE'sof Taffry'sescortscoulddo little against armored warships. their auto-loadinggearletthem batterawayatthe armored shieldsonthe Japanese ship's bridges which didn't much physical damage, but raised Hellwiththe bridge crews' ,moraleand hearing!
Well done sir! Thank you very much.