Heyy, glad the jumping strike zone is back this season! We didn't hear much about it over the offseason and I was worried that they might've improved the technology and we wouldn't get to see our old friend :( Thanks for the vid Lin!
For the final segment of this video, note that this slide would DEFINITELY NOT be legal in high school (NFHS), as NFHS rules forbid the runner from making contact with the fielder beyond the base when sliding, except at home plate.
Correct, Rule 2-32-2 A slide is illegal if... c. except at home plate, the runner goes beyond the base and then makes contact with or alters the play of the fielder. Also, ... f. the runner, on a force play, does not slide on the ground and in a direct line between the two bases. In this case the runner slides to the left of the base and makes contact with the fielder's leg. Then you have possible Malicious Contact which in High School would be very possible.
@legomystego815 the point is...Lindsay brought up the high school rule, then when finishing, said sliding past the base in the white area is ok, while still showing the diagram as it relates to the high school rule. We know she was referring to the video play, but the high school rule diagram was still up. In high school, you cannot slide past the base. So,... all that said, ...it was just a clarification for the last portion of the video.
@@jametz66 thanks. Many of us are in the high school season now. You can slide past second base in high school- you just can’t make contact with the infielder and change the pattern of play. Otherwise known as in reference.
Rough day for the strike zone box on the Giant's broadcast today. Darn thing kept vanishing. My favorite though was at some point (wish I could remember the inning) it made a small jump mid at bat and the ball graphic appeared about six inches above the zone, pretty much over the middle of the plate (over the tot of the stike zone). Problem was, the pitch was caught thigh high to the batter, except is was maybe 6 inches off the plate on the inside. It was almost as if the computer rotated the graphics by 90 degrees. I rolled my eyes at that one.
McNeil was probably trying to hurry the throw because he knew he was about to be the victim of a hard slide. I might lose the transfer in that situation as well.
They pretty well cleaned up the steam rolling at the plate. And they even cleaned up the obvious obstruction on the bases where the fielder can block the base without the ball. It seems like they need to clean up the slide rules at 2nd.
No not a blanket statement. But in this instance the pivot man is on record (in public media) as not trying for the DP when you actually see him go to the glove for the throw and lose the ball on the transfer. He was thinking about a DP and was in territory where he was vulnerable.@@cushmfg
Going back to Brian Gorman’s comment years ago about ejecting the instigators during bench-clearing incidents, I’m surprised McNeil didn’t get ejected it seemed like he instigated that fight by pointing at Hoskins’ face. I liked the graphic where you posted the criteria for a legal slide.
@@MwD676Thanks, I wasn't sure about that as I wasn't paying attention to that factor until I saw it at the end. I just thought it was interesting to see after all that
Toward the end of this video it shows the runner going into a slide a bit late for his outstretched foot to reach the bag first. It actually looked like the foot was aimed at the ankle of the fielder. If all the points of the slide rule are met to be a clean slide, then does this example highlight a possible loophole in the rule that'll potentially be exploited throughout the season?
Specially since 2nd basemen are not jumping back as they were taught before to avoid contact. But yes, the cleats to the ankle seems like it was intentional, and may be illegal law wise?
Letter of the rules, no violation. However we can all see him pointing that foot to the ankle of the Met. That’s why he’s upset. Getting spiked < no fun.
@@brianlampl3321McNeil could have avoided that by doing what you're taught as a kid at 2B to vacate the bag while throwing to get out of that area. Instead he threw a hissy fit because he didn't defend it well and Hoskins played by the rules. Not a fan of either team.
Way I see it, if you have to hold onto the bag for dear life to stop your momentum from making you slide through and therefore making the slide illegal, it should just be illegal. Spirit vs letter of the law. The whole point of the rule is to prevent these sorts of plays.
Sorry about the late call here, and someone else has probably already made this comment, but nevertheless. I can’t help but notice that the second baseman dropped the ball before being hit by the slide, and this wasn’t taken into account at the time. Thanks Lindsey and keep up the good work.
Thanks for posting this one! I'm convinced this was a dirty play with intent, but thanks to your breakdown at least I can understand how it is still within the rules...baseball isn't friendly.
It really gets to a conflict between the written rule vs the unwritten rules. When they created these slide rules, the players basically decided on their own to stop sliding hard to break up double plays, even though the written rules don't actually say that you cant slide hard and late. The rules , as written, are forcing the runner's slide to be more predictable so the fielder can get out of the way by making him start the slide before the bag and not allowing him to change directions. IMO, McNeil did the worst thing which is to back up but stay in the straight line path of the runner. Either move to right or left, jump, or stay right behind the bag and use it as a sort of blocker.
McNeil was right behind the bag. The bag is not much of a blocker. A late slide is illegal. (That is, not making contact with the ground before reaching the base.)
Legal, Sure. Dirty, Yes. Kicking the leg/Ankle is trying to hurt someone. That leg kick wasn't in line with the bag either, it was to the left. I get trying to break up a double play, but do it with your shin or body, not kicking straight on. This is just like when a pitcher throws at someone over or under their waist.
i guess depending on the umpire, hoskins could've gotten an ejection for malicious contact having the spikes up, but this has probably never been called in the mlb
@@tw1nn319 There isn't a rule citation for that. It's common knowledge and unwritten expecation. Have you been around baseball for very long? Every feet-first slide would be "spikes up" in your opinion....which is ridiculous. Hoskins's feet were simply extended, sliding with the soles of his feet forward. That's how sliding works. Had he had a foot in the air, or slashed at the fielder, then we would have a dirty play. This was just plain old baseball....and plain old babyish tempers by the Mets.
@@teebob21 I understand this is a legal slide, I watched the video. Pointing your toes is simply all I look for “spikes down.” Leaving your toes pointing up is unsafe and regardless of intent, could cause injuries and is dangerous. With no written rule then simply put, its umpires discretion. And no it’s not “common knowledge,” the dropped 3rd strike rule isn’t even common knowledge to most casual baseball fans
Kind of defeats the intent of the rule to avoid injury. The speed at which Hoskins hit the base could have injured McNeil's knee. If umpires continue to allow hard and/or late slides to happen injuries will follow. :)
The obvious purpose of this slide, which was very late, was to interfere with the throw to first. Take from that what you will but that is clearly what happened. If the runner had not been targeting the fielders back leg but the leg closest to the base, the fielder might have ended up in the hospital. Moral of the story, fielders in mlb are not safe behind the bag or anywhere near the bag, they must vacate that space to allow the runner to slide anywhere near the bag. In High School, that is an obvious illegal slide, possibly malicious contact, umpire's judgment.
There's an extra part which I'm surprised wasn't mentioned. > Notwithstanding the above, a slide shall not be a “bona fide slide” if a runner engages in a “roll block,” or intentionally initiates (or attempts to initiate) contact with the fielder by elevating and kicking his leg above the fielder’s knee or throwing his arm or his upper body.
What about the runner rolling to the right to initiate the contact with the 2nd baseman? The entire point of establishing the rule was to prevent injury to infielders covering the base. Whether Hoskins intended to or not, he rolled over to one side & initiated dangerous contact that very easily couldve caused a serious inhiry. This is textbook the kind of slide they've created rules to stop.
Simply twisting a quarter turn is not a roll-block. He is doing this to reach back for and maintain contact with the base. Think barrel roll. Or rolling down a hill as a kid. Or blocking as in football. This describes a roll-block. Starts with a legal slide, and then you roll over to contact the fielder.
@@MwD676 Fair. I think it's just a situation where you don't seen many slides past the bag like that anymore. Hell, if McNeil's leg was in the way, Hoskins might've lost contact with the bag! In either case, legal slide, fine but I was more annoyed with Hoskins' response, crybaby face & whatnot seems a bit much understanding why McNeil might take some exception being hit around the knees... Clumsy all around I suppose.
At a certain point infielders have to the take some accountability. McNeil puts himself in that situation by not clearing the base as almost everyone else does.
It was a bad throw and he was trying to turn the double play. He had time to clear the base, but naturally hesitated because of the other 2 factors, resulting in the play we saw.
He was clearly and obviously attempting to complete a double play. He lied to the press. If he wasn’t trying to turn a double play, why did he fling the ball out of his glove (trying to get it to the throwing hand)?
I appreciate the breakdown of the rules, but the entire rule itself was created to prevent injuries? This slide could have EASILY resulted in a serious injury, hence why McNeil was mad. The "illegal" slide he performed last season was not even remotely dangerous compared to today.
Another season with pitch clock to speed up the game and we haven’t banned inactive players from leaving the bench for a wasted walk-about just because a couple guys on the field wanted to yell a bit.
A couple of observations: 1. The slide did not cause the fielder to drop the ball. 2. The slide not only looked dirty; it also looked late. There was no attempt for the leading foot to hit the bag. The leading foot was aimed at the fielder's lower leg. If it is not a force play, AND if the fielder was in a different position, one could argue that a such a tricky slide might be warranted. However, in this case of a force play, there is no reason for that slide other than to disrupt & maybe hurt the fielder. 3. The analyst says that the slide was legal, and apparently the umps agreed. So the rule should be modified again. If the rules allow these dirty slides, somebody will be hurt; and in the meantime, there are going to a lot of angry players.
Oh, sweetheart....breaking up double plays by sliding has been part of the game for over a century. It is only due to the pussification of baseball in the last decade and a half that we are even talking about this.
Of course he intended to slide at the fielder…to break up a double play. He is required to slide within reach, and maintain contact with, the base. There is no requirement for his foot to go directly to the base.
yes he does but it's a very late slide, nothing says that's against the rules since the criteria for the slide rules is you must begin the slide before the base.
That is a dangerous slide and should be an ejectable offense. The McNeill slide against the Braves should be ejectable too, The fielder could have had either of his ankles injured and of course the lack of an enforcible rule means that the Mets throw the ball at Hoskins the next day and its more nonsense and ejections. And that could have been worse of course if Hoskins had been hit especially if it was up around the head. But, I am sure this kind of nonsense ups viewership so MLB sees it all as a win.
It's definitely a dirty slide and should be punishable but nothing prevents the runners from colliding into fielders, plate collisions are still technically legal as long as you go by the rules.
I don't understand why rule #4 only applies to lateral movement by the runner. Why should he be allowed to intentionally collide with the fielder, just because the fielder happens to be directly behind the bag?
Probably because that's the natural momentum of the slide. You slide into a base and keep going in that direction. If the fielder is standing directly behind the bag and in the pathway of the runner, there is likely to be some contact. It would unfairly penalize a runner for making an otherwise legitimate slide.
because they are allowed run towards the base. Sliding past the base is still the same "pathway" as going into it and stopping. Even if he was running towards the right side of the bag and then ran right at it I am not sure you could say he was going for the fielder and not just sliding towards the base.
It can definitely apply to sliding past the base….if he loses contact with base. Sliding within reach and maintaining contact with the base is the requirement. There is no kicking a leg, reaching a hand, or throwing his body upward and above the knee. Hoskins did what he was supposed to do.
By ejecting the mets pitcher today, MLB has basically said it is perfectly acceptable to intentionally slide into another player's knees and intentionally drive your spikes into another players shin, but it is not ok to throw near a batter but not actually hit them. Basically battery is perfectly acceptable, but assualt is not. Good to know
This is stretching the mlb slide rules as far as possible. If you're a fielder, do not have your foot on or near second base. Should the MLB umpires allow the fielder to be somewhere within the area of the bag instead of having to put their foot on the base? Any runner can target the legs of the fielder and start a slide way too late obviously for the urpose of breaking up a double play. That's why it was nearly a brawl.
Are we saying he didn’t start his slide late? I was under the impression that you’re sliding to the base, if your slide starts and your legs are already thru the bag, it’s a late slide and that’s an offensive slide. McNeil is still a baby but the slide was “dirty”.
The criteria for a bona fide slide that may not have been met is #1: begins his slide (i.e. contacts the ground) before the base. The parenthetical was left out of the video. It could easily be argued that Hoskins feet had reached the base while his leg had not yet contacted the ground.
@@CybeastIDactual question. What is the fielder supposed to do? Stand in front of the bag and potentially lose a half a second in a tag or jump behind the bag and miss the ball. He isn't dropping his knee and blocking like in the example and I would argue that's how I would field the ball with or without a running to tag
yes, based on the rules emphasis and how they called it in spring training, that is what he is supposed to do. everyone needs to seperate ‘i dont like this rule’ from ‘this isnt a violation of it’
Guy literally admits he tried to slide into his leg…rules like this keep baseball from the mainstream. Unwritten rules and honor codes. Make a rule you can slide into players. It’s not hard
So apparently you can make forcible contact intentionally (the thing the slide rule was supposed to eliminate) as long as you can touch the bag? Kinda seems sus...
Shouldnt the runner be aware of the timing of their slide as they initiate it relative to whether they expect the fielder to have the ball or not? Smart baserunning isn't just blindly sliding as fast as you possibly can to the bag (or maybe it is sometimes?). You can clearly see that 1B will catch the throw before the runner is at the spot his leg is planted, and you're allowed to stage yourself to defend your base as you field the throw. I swear isn't that the rule or is that just for catchers but not basemen? there's are some awesome slowmo vids of plays at home where the runner slides wayyyy outside to avoid a seemingly unavoidable out because they knew the throw was going to get there in time to justify the catcher standing directly in the basepath.
That might have been a "legal" slide but it was still a dirty move, the guy intentionally went after the fielder's legs. Someone's going to have their career ended out there with crap like that, both of McNeil's legs were impacted in a bad way. Watch the slide in slow motion and you see "Dick Hed" trying to take out both of McNeil's legs. Might have been "legal" but it's still a dick move. This isn't football. If people like seeing crap like this, they should go watch a football game.
That was an awful slide. It should have been called illegal breaking part #4, for his body twist while over the base solely to make contact with the opponent. It was extremely lucky McNeill didn't get his leg snapped in half or his knee ligaments popped. I would have ejected Hoskins for dangerous play and suspended him for at least a game, he came in extremely fast and then deliberately turned his body into the leg.. that 2:49 shot is really bad and makes me wonder how he got away unscathed. If batters keep this up, I suspect a few of them will end up taking a cleat to the head from basemen protecting themselves from getting the runners body weight on top of their knee), and I can definitely see some all in brawls happening. A basemen is effectively a dead stationary target for a runner and the risk of injury is massive. Owners will want to put a stop to any repeats ASAP.
Collision is legal. Staying on the base makes the slide legal. Also disagree that McNeil stopped his slide. Hoskins grabs and holds the base. This distinction makes no difference, though.
I argue yhat Hoskins wouldnt have remained close to the base had McNeil's legs not slowed him down. The momentum was too great he barely hung on at all. Dirty play by a dirty player
It was a clean slide. Hoskins didn't spike the fielder at all. He didn't move his leg at all to create contact. Did he slide late, yeah probably but hoskins isn't one that has speed or will steal bases. His slides will look ugly all the time. The fielder over reacted in this situation.
@CybeastID no, no it didn't. Yes he slid past the bag like everyone else does but he didn't roll or force his foot into McNeil. McNiel also didn't stop Hoskins momentum.
I can see how the argument could be made that the slide was legal. However, I see one rule he violated and two rules where one or the other were violated. In addition this does not pass the eye test for a clean and legal slide. It was late, high, and wide, with a leg whip at the end. 1: yeah, the slide starts before the base but it is so late and wide that his lead foot completely misses the base. 2: Yeah, his hand touches the base but it is the trailing hand and his entire body is past the base. 3: yeah, he remains on the base but only because he crashed into the fielder. 4: I think the runner violated this rule. The path of his slide is directly towards the plant leg of the fielder and not the bag. If you think his path did not change then he was never aiming for the base and violated rule 2. His entire body except for his hand and wrist miss the base.
Passes eye test with flying colors. Not late because he began slide before bag. Not high since he is on the ground below fielder’s knee. Not wide of being within reach of base. No leg whip-he is simply turning to stay on base. 1. No. He slid within reach and maintains contact with the base. 2. No. For same reason as first point. 3. No. Remains because he reaches and holds base. 4. No. Fielder is also within reach of and directly behind the base. He is always aiming to (legally) contact the fielder and prevent a double play. This is a blatant attempt to prevent a double play. This is his obligation in this competitive situation.
1. True but doesn't matter how late his slide is as long as it's before the base, that's the only criteria there and his foot missing the base is irrelevant when it comes to the base. 2. Doesn't matter, re-read the rules, if he's able to maintain contact with the base while doing a legal slide then that's legal. 3. Doesn't matter. 4. I disagree, he was going for the base the whole time and never deviated from his path.
Most of these stupid rules have been there for a long time just being enforced now. It makes the game safe and fair. You nor I are the gatekeepers. If you don't like it, go watch tapes of old games.
S.T.F.U. There was no violation, so what rule are you bitching about? The NCAA rule and high school rule is for student athletes. This is interference in high school and an ejection.
I was there 2nd row behind the Mets Dougout .From that view it looked like to me a violation and i saw the pick off Violation clearly i guess it looks different when your there .Be well
Heyy, glad the jumping strike zone is back this season! We didn't hear much about it over the offseason and I was worried that they might've improved the technology and we wouldn't get to see our old friend :(
Thanks for the vid Lin!
The boxes are still not the right height either. Saw one top of box was below batters waist.
For the final segment of this video, note that this slide would DEFINITELY NOT be legal in high school (NFHS), as NFHS rules forbid the runner from making contact with the fielder beyond the base when sliding, except at home plate.
Correct, Rule 2-32-2 A slide is illegal if... c. except at home plate, the runner goes beyond the base and then makes contact with or alters the play of the fielder. Also, ... f. the runner, on a force play, does not slide on the ground and in a direct line between the two bases. In this case the runner slides to the left of the base and makes contact with the fielder's leg. Then you have possible Malicious Contact which in High School would be very possible.
......ok......well.....this is the bigs, so what's your point?
Hey don’t forget about TEE BALL
@legomystego815 the point is...Lindsay brought up the high school rule, then when finishing, said sliding past the base in the white area is ok, while still showing the diagram as it relates to the high school rule. We know she was referring to the video play, but the high school rule diagram was still up. In high school, you cannot slide past the base. So,... all that said, ...it was just a clarification for the last portion of the video.
@@jametz66 thanks. Many of us are in the high school season now. You can slide past second base in high school- you just can’t make contact with the infielder and change the pattern of play. Otherwise known as in reference.
Jonathan is awesome! He was the chief for Jen Pawol’s crew last year if I’m not mistaken.. Congrats to him!
Rough day for the strike zone box on the Giant's broadcast today. Darn thing kept vanishing. My favorite though was at some point (wish I could remember the inning) it made a small jump mid at bat and the ball graphic appeared about six inches above the zone, pretty much over the middle of the plate (over the tot of the stike zone). Problem was, the pitch was caught thigh high to the batter, except is was maybe 6 inches off the plate on the inside. It was almost as if the computer rotated the graphics by 90 degrees. I rolled my eyes at that one.
ROBOUMP IS PERFECT. BRING ON ROBOUMP
Something i noticed was McNeil didnt have complete control of the baseball as he was attempting to grab and throw to 1st.
Baseball was dropped on the transfer from glove to hand.
McNeil was probably trying to hurry the throw because he knew he was about to be the victim of a hard slide. I might lose the transfer in that situation as well.
At the professional level a pivot man should have the agility to glove the throw and be in a safe area away from the base.
Regardless of timing, where runners are etc, just a blanket statement there eh?
They pretty well cleaned up the steam rolling at the plate. And they even cleaned up the obvious obstruction on the bases where the fielder can block the base without the ball. It seems like they need to clean up the slide rules at 2nd.
@@robertbrown7470 the slide rules at second got cleaned up before blocking the base got cleaned up, its pretty cut and dry
No not a blanket statement. But in this instance the pivot man is on record (in public media) as not trying for the DP when you actually see him go to the glove for the throw and lose the ball on the transfer. He was thinking about a DP and was in territory where he was vulnerable.@@cushmfg
@@tw1nn319 Yeah, it looks like it!
Going back to Brian Gorman’s comment years ago about ejecting the instigators during bench-clearing incidents, I’m surprised McNeil didn’t get ejected it seemed like he instigated that fight by pointing at Hoskins’ face. I liked the graphic where you posted the criteria for a legal slide.
When was there a fight?
Only noticed at the end that you visually point out that he lost control of the ball before the contact anyway
Control of the ball does not factor into whether the slide is legal.
@@MwD676Thanks, I wasn't sure about that as I wasn't paying attention to that factor until I saw it at the end. I just thought it was interesting to see after all that
Toward the end of this video it shows the runner going into a slide a bit late for his outstretched foot to reach the bag first. It actually looked like the foot was aimed at the ankle of the fielder. If all the points of the slide rule are met to be a clean slide, then does this example highlight a possible loophole in the rule that'll potentially be exploited throughout the season?
Excellent question, IMO.
Specially since 2nd basemen are not jumping back as they were taught before to avoid contact. But yes, the cleats to the ankle seems like it was intentional, and may be illegal law wise?
Letter of the rules, no violation. However we can all see him pointing that foot to the ankle of the Met. That’s why he’s upset. Getting spiked < no fun.
@@brianlampl3321McNeil could have avoided that by doing what you're taught as a kid at 2B to vacate the bag while throwing to get out of that area. Instead he threw a hissy fit because he didn't defend it well and Hoskins played by the rules. Not a fan of either team.
Way I see it, if you have to hold onto the bag for dear life to stop your momentum from making you slide through and therefore making the slide illegal, it should just be illegal. Spirit vs letter of the law. The whole point of the rule is to prevent these sorts of plays.
Great streams and analysis. 👍
Sorry about the late call here, and someone else has probably already made this comment, but nevertheless. I can’t help but notice that the second baseman dropped the ball before being hit by the slide, and this wasn’t taken into account at the time. Thanks Lindsey and keep up the good work.
Thanks for posting this one! I'm convinced this was a dirty play with intent, but thanks to your breakdown at least I can understand how it is still within the rules...baseball isn't friendly.
There is intent to prevent a double play, and to do so legally. This is part of the game. There is not intent to injure, so I don’t see it as ‘dirty.’
It really gets to a conflict between the written rule vs the unwritten rules. When they created these slide rules, the players basically decided on their own to stop sliding hard to break up double plays, even though the written rules don't actually say that you cant slide hard and late. The rules , as written, are forcing the runner's slide to be more predictable so the fielder can get out of the way by making him start the slide before the bag and not allowing him to change directions.
IMO, McNeil did the worst thing which is to back up but stay in the straight line path of the runner. Either move to right or left, jump, or stay right behind the bag and use it as a sort of blocker.
McNeil was right behind the bag. The bag is not much of a blocker.
A late slide is illegal. (That is, not making contact with the ground before reaching the base.)
I don’t like how Hoskins seemed to roll into McNeil with his left arm. That’s the part that looked dirty to me.
He “rolled” in order to reach back and hang on to the base.
NFHS slide rule also protects the fielder beyond the bag.
Felt bad for McNeil. Until I saw the other clip.
He's a whiner, just like his whole team
Question: Where should the first baseman have stood?
In front of first base and then make a sweep tag.
I had to get it thru my kids head to stay behind the bag when holding a runner on first
If a pitcher for the Mets retaliates during the rest of the weekend series, Marquez's ass will be in the jackpot.
Legal, Sure. Dirty, Yes. Kicking the leg/Ankle is trying to hurt someone. That leg kick wasn't in line with the bag either, it was to the left. I get trying to break up a double play, but do it with your shin or body, not kicking straight on. This is just like when a pitcher throws at someone over or under their waist.
i guess depending on the umpire, hoskins could've gotten an ejection for malicious contact having the spikes up, but this has probably never been called in the mlb
@@tw1nn319 "Spikes up" means spikes high headed for a shin, a knee, or higher. This slide was spikes out, which has been legal forever.
@@teebob21 can you provide a link to the rules stating this? I’ve always interpreted it as spikes that aren’t pointing down are pointing up
@@tw1nn319 There isn't a rule citation for that. It's common knowledge and unwritten expecation. Have you been around baseball for very long? Every feet-first slide would be "spikes up" in your opinion....which is ridiculous. Hoskins's feet were simply extended, sliding with the soles of his feet forward. That's how sliding works. Had he had a foot in the air, or slashed at the fielder, then we would have a dirty play. This was just plain old baseball....and plain old babyish tempers by the Mets.
@@teebob21 I understand this is a legal slide, I watched the video. Pointing your toes is simply all I look for “spikes down.” Leaving your toes pointing up is unsafe and regardless of intent, could cause injuries and is dangerous. With no written rule then simply put, its umpires discretion. And no it’s not “common knowledge,” the dropped 3rd strike rule isn’t even common knowledge to most casual baseball fans
Kind of defeats the intent of the rule to avoid injury. The speed at which Hoskins hit the base could have injured McNeil's knee. If umpires continue to allow hard and/or late slides to happen injuries will follow. :)
😂😂😂
His front foot wasn't going for the base. It was going for McNeil.
The obvious purpose of this slide, which was very late, was to interfere with the throw to first. Take from that what you will but that is clearly what happened. If the runner had not been targeting the fielders back leg but the leg closest to the base, the fielder might have ended up in the hospital. Moral of the story, fielders in mlb are not safe behind the bag or anywhere near the bag, they must vacate that space to allow the runner to slide anywhere near the bag. In High School, that is an obvious illegal slide, possibly malicious contact, umpire's judgment.
It may be "legal" but it's a bad slide. Everyone involved is lucky to walk away with that result.
Cleats to the ankle seems intentional; though the slide was 'clean' according to the 4 rules.
There's an extra part which I'm surprised wasn't mentioned.
> Notwithstanding the above, a slide shall not be a “bona fide slide”
if a runner engages in a “roll block,” or intentionally initiates
(or attempts to initiate) contact with the fielder by elevating and
kicking his leg above the fielder’s knee or throwing his arm or his
upper body.
What about the runner rolling to the right to initiate the contact with the 2nd baseman? The entire point of establishing the rule was to prevent injury to infielders covering the base. Whether Hoskins intended to or not, he rolled over to one side & initiated dangerous contact that very easily couldve caused a serious inhiry. This is textbook the kind of slide they've created rules to stop.
😂😂😂
@@jasonharvath720 Truly, valuable insight this.
Simply twisting a quarter turn is not a roll-block. He is doing this to reach back for and maintain contact with the base.
Think barrel roll. Or rolling down a hill as a kid. Or blocking as in football. This describes a roll-block. Starts with a legal slide, and then you roll over to contact the fielder.
@@MwD676 Fair. I think it's just a situation where you don't seen many slides past the bag like that anymore. Hell, if McNeil's leg was in the way, Hoskins might've lost contact with the bag! In either case, legal slide, fine but I was more annoyed with Hoskins' response, crybaby face & whatnot seems a bit much understanding why McNeil might take some exception being hit around the knees... Clumsy all around I suppose.
At a certain point infielders have to the take some accountability. McNeil puts himself in that situation by not clearing the base as almost everyone else does.
It was a bad throw and he was trying to turn the double play. He had time to clear the base, but naturally hesitated because of the other 2 factors, resulting in the play we saw.
@@LucianDevine Jeff said in his post game press conference that he wasn’t trying to turn a double play. So which is if? 😂
@@benjaminwirth1208 Ah, my bad, I didn't watch the press conference. I just naturally assumed that he was.
He was clearly and obviously attempting to complete a double play. He lied to the press.
If he wasn’t trying to turn a double play, why did he fling the ball out of his glove (trying to get it to the throwing hand)?
I appreciate the breakdown of the rules, but the entire rule itself was created to prevent injuries? This slide could have EASILY resulted in a serious injury, hence why McNeil was mad. The "illegal" slide he performed last season was not even remotely dangerous compared to today.
😂😂😂
Ooooohhhhhhh well that's a way to start 2024! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 I'M DYING LAUGHING 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Another season with pitch clock to speed up the game and we haven’t banned inactive players from leaving the bench for a wasted walk-about just because a couple guys on the field wanted to yell a bit.
If McNeil doesn’t get hit then Hoskins flies through and off the bag. I think it satisfies the rule as written but should illegal as it was unsafe.
Umpires are sociologists. MLB is trying to turn them into scientists or law enforcers
A couple of observations:
1. The slide did not cause the fielder to drop the ball.
2. The slide not only looked dirty; it also looked late. There was no attempt for the leading foot to hit the bag. The leading foot was aimed at the fielder's lower leg. If it is not a force play, AND if the fielder was in a different position, one could argue that a such a tricky slide might be warranted. However, in this case of a force play, there is no reason for that slide other than to disrupt & maybe hurt the fielder.
3. The analyst says that the slide was legal, and apparently the umps agreed. So the rule should be modified again. If the rules allow these dirty slides, somebody will be hurt; and in the meantime, there are going to a lot of angry players.
Oh, sweetheart....breaking up double plays by sliding has been part of the game for over a century. It is only due to the pussification of baseball in the last decade and a half that we are even talking about this.
Of course he intended to slide at the fielder…to break up a double play. He is required to slide within reach, and maintain contact with, the base. There is no requirement for his foot to go directly to the base.
ask the broadcasters what they think. yea, that always works.
He doesn’t even slide for the bag I don’t get the rules
yes he does but it's a very late slide, nothing says that's against the rules since the criteria for the slide rules is you must begin the slide before the base.
That is a dangerous slide and should be an ejectable offense. The McNeill slide against the Braves should be ejectable too, The fielder could have had either of his ankles injured and of course the lack of an enforcible rule means that the Mets throw the ball at Hoskins the next day and its more nonsense and ejections. And that could have been worse of course if Hoskins had been hit especially if it was up around the head. But, I am sure this kind of nonsense ups viewership so MLB sees it all as a win.
It's definitely a dirty slide and should be punishable but nothing prevents the runners from colliding into fielders, plate collisions are still technically legal as long as you go by the rules.
I don't understand why rule #4 only applies to lateral movement by the runner. Why should he be allowed to intentionally collide with the fielder, just because the fielder happens to be directly behind the bag?
Probably because that's the natural momentum of the slide. You slide into a base and keep going in that direction. If the fielder is standing directly behind the bag and in the pathway of the runner, there is likely to be some contact. It would unfairly penalize a runner for making an otherwise legitimate slide.
because they are allowed run towards the base. Sliding past the base is still the same "pathway" as going into it and stopping. Even if he was running towards the right side of the bag and then ran right at it I am not sure you could say he was going for the fielder and not just sliding towards the base.
It can definitely apply to sliding past the base….if he loses contact with base.
Sliding within reach and maintaining contact with the base is the requirement. There is no kicking a leg, reaching a hand, or throwing his body upward and above the knee. Hoskins did what he was supposed to do.
Legal, but still very dangerous.
No you can't do that
Rhys: womp womp
By ejecting the mets pitcher today, MLB has basically said it is perfectly acceptable to intentionally slide into another player's knees and intentionally drive your spikes into another players shin, but it is not ok to throw near a batter but not actually hit them.
Basically battery is perfectly acceptable, but assualt is not.
Good to know
This is stretching the mlb slide rules as far as possible. If you're a fielder, do not have your foot on or near second base. Should the MLB umpires allow the fielder to be somewhere within the area of the bag instead of having to put their foot on the base? Any runner can target the legs of the fielder and start a slide way too late obviously for the urpose of breaking up a double play. That's why it was nearly a brawl.
"Should MLB allow fielder to be near bag?"
They did, and it was unreviewable. Until Utley. Where the Dodgers reviewed an unreviewable call.
Jonathon Parra had great timing and great situational management regardless if he was technically wrong on the no call
Good analysis. It was a legal slide, but a dirty slide.
Are we saying he didn’t start his slide late? I was under the impression that you’re sliding to the base, if your slide starts and your legs are already thru the bag, it’s a late slide and that’s an offensive slide. McNeil is still a baby but the slide was “dirty”.
Which rule is that?
@@119Agent criterion #1 of the bona fide slide rule
The criteria for a bona fide slide that may not have been met is #1:
begins his slide (i.e. contacts the ground) before the base.
The parenthetical was left out of the video. It could easily be argued that Hoskins feet had reached the base while his leg had not yet contacted the ground.
Except the umpires didn't call obstruction on the play at first.
Why yes, they did not. They should have.
@@CybeastIDactual question. What is the fielder supposed to do? Stand in front of the bag and potentially lose a half a second in a tag or jump behind the bag and miss the ball. He isn't dropping his knee and blocking like in the example and I would argue that's how I would field the ball with or without a running to tag
@@fleisch24yes.
yes, based on the rules emphasis and how they called it in spring training, that is what he is supposed to do. everyone needs to seperate ‘i dont like this rule’ from ‘this isnt a violation of it’
@@fleisch24Yes. As a matter of fact that's *exactly* what they are supposed to do.
McNeil acted like a child
Guy literally admits he tried to slide into his leg…rules like this keep baseball from the mainstream. Unwritten rules and honor codes. Make a rule you can slide into players. It’s not hard
I like this new “dirty” play 😅
So apparently you can make forcible contact intentionally (the thing the slide rule was supposed to eliminate) as long as you can touch the bag? Kinda seems sus...
Shouldnt the runner be aware of the timing of their slide as they initiate it relative to whether they expect the fielder to have the ball or not? Smart baserunning isn't just blindly sliding as fast as you possibly can to the bag (or maybe it is sometimes?). You can clearly see that 1B will catch the throw before the runner is at the spot his leg is planted, and you're allowed to stage yourself to defend your base as you field the throw. I swear isn't that the rule or is that just for catchers but not basemen? there's are some awesome slowmo vids of plays at home where the runner slides wayyyy outside to avoid a seemingly unavoidable out because they knew the throw was going to get there in time to justify the catcher standing directly in the basepath.
3:25 looks like a late slide to me…
That might have been a "legal" slide but it was still a dirty move, the guy intentionally went after the fielder's legs. Someone's going to have their career ended out there with crap like that, both of McNeil's legs were impacted in a bad way. Watch the slide in slow motion and you see "Dick Hed" trying to take out both of McNeil's legs. Might have been "legal" but it's still a dick move. This isn't football. If people like seeing crap like this, they should go watch a football game.
This is good old fashioned baseball. You mad you got dirt on your skirt
😂😂😂
@Youngstomata Absolutely not. Man slid *extremely* late and there was a high chance of severe injury.
Maybe ironically, this is not actually a legal move in football.
He spiked him.Didnt need to.Will likely try it again as the retribution was lame.All in all,i enjoyed it 7/10.
Football has more reviews than baseball
That was an awful slide. It should have been called illegal breaking part #4, for his body twist while over the base solely to make contact with the opponent. It was extremely lucky McNeill didn't get his leg snapped in half or his knee ligaments popped. I would have ejected Hoskins for dangerous play and suspended him for at least a game, he came in extremely fast and then deliberately turned his body into the leg.. that 2:49 shot is really bad and makes me wonder how he got away unscathed.
If batters keep this up, I suspect a few of them will end up taking a cleat to the head from basemen protecting themselves from getting the runners body weight on top of their knee), and I can definitely see some all in brawls happening. A basemen is effectively a dead stationary target for a runner and the risk of injury is massive. Owners will want to put a stop to any repeats ASAP.
Yes, intent was to make contact.
In most states that is battery.... since he to me it look like he had the intent to harm...
How many games a year do you work?
I disagree with part 3 on the slide. Hoskins collides with McNeil, knocking him down. He would have slid off the base if not for the collision.
Collision is legal. Staying on the base makes the slide legal.
Also disagree that McNeil stopped his slide. Hoskins grabs and holds the base. This distinction makes no difference, though.
I argue yhat Hoskins wouldnt have remained close to the base had McNeil's legs not slowed him down. The momentum was too great he barely hung on at all. Dirty play by a dirty player
It was a late slide
It was a clean slide. Hoskins didn't spike the fielder at all. He didn't move his leg at all to create contact. Did he slide late, yeah probably but hoskins isn't one that has speed or will steal bases. His slides will look ugly all the time. The fielder over reacted in this situation.
Hoskins spiked the fielder. Hoskins has a history with the Mets and that play had a chance to cause SEVERE injury.
@CybeastID no, no it didn't. Yes he slid past the bag like everyone else does but he didn't roll or force his foot into McNeil. McNiel also didn't stop Hoskins momentum.
😎
I can see how the argument could be made that the slide was legal. However, I see one rule he violated and two rules where one or the other were violated. In addition this does not pass the eye test for a clean and legal slide. It was late, high, and wide, with a leg whip at the end.
1: yeah, the slide starts before the base but it is so late and wide that his lead foot completely misses the base.
2: Yeah, his hand touches the base but it is the trailing hand and his entire body is past the base.
3: yeah, he remains on the base but only because he crashed into the fielder.
4: I think the runner violated this rule. The path of his slide is directly towards the plant leg of the fielder and not the bag. If you think his path did not change then he was never aiming for the base and violated rule 2. His entire body except for his hand and wrist miss the base.
Wrong. Rewatch the video to see why.
@@teebob21 what do you think I am wrong about? I see no intent to reach the base with the initial slide. I see a blatant attempt to injure a fielder.
Passes eye test with flying colors. Not late because he began slide before bag. Not high since he is on the ground below fielder’s knee. Not wide of being within reach of base. No leg whip-he is simply turning to stay on base.
1. No. He slid within reach and maintains contact with the base.
2. No. For same reason as first point.
3. No. Remains because he reaches and holds base.
4. No. Fielder is also within reach of and directly behind the base. He is always aiming to (legally) contact the fielder and prevent a double play.
This is a blatant attempt to prevent a double play. This is his obligation in this competitive situation.
1. True but doesn't matter how late his slide is as long as it's before the base, that's the only criteria there and his foot missing the base is irrelevant when it comes to the base.
2. Doesn't matter, re-read the rules, if he's able to maintain contact with the base while doing a legal slide then that's legal.
3. Doesn't matter.
4. I disagree, he was going for the base the whole time and never deviated from his path.
Does anyone else think this woman’s voice is crazy annoying? 🤷♂️
And all of these stupid rules are what has ruined the game of baseball.
Could be worse look at football basically banning tackling
@@daedricmage2118the NFFL (National Flag Football League) has a great set of rules.
Most of these stupid rules have been there for a long time just being enforced now. It makes the game safe and fair. You nor I are the gatekeepers. If you don't like it, go watch tapes of old games.
@@daedricmage2118OT but incorrect. It was free range on targeted hits to the head, and cheap shots.
S.T.F.U. There was no violation, so what rule are you bitching about? The NCAA rule and high school rule is for student athletes. This is interference in high school and an ejection.
I was there 2nd row behind the Mets Dougout .From that view it looked like to me a violation and i saw the pick off Violation clearly i guess it looks different when your there .Be well
Baby mcneil the hypocrite. Quick. Someome call a wahmbulance
Remember when baseball players werent such soft little babies?
Nope