Which of these two do you think is the more famous member of the house of Cromwell? Let me know below and remember to check me out at: BUY MY BOOK (Find Your Irish Ancestors Online): amzn.to/3Z2ChnG Website (with 2 FREE DOWNLOADS): www.historycallingofficial.com/ Patreon: www.patreon.com/historycalling Amazon storefront: www.amazon.com/shop/historycalling Instagram: instagram.com/historycalling/
Personally, I am inclined to say Oliver, as if I hear the name Cromwell that's who I think about. But both had a pretty major impact on British royal history, and politics
Difficult one. I think Thomas Cromwell rose from obscure beginnings to Chancellor. Before the office of prime minister was instituted the Chancellor was the pinnacle a commoner could attain. Indeed the office had been held by Archbishops and Cardinals as dual occupations as was Cromwell's predecessor Cardinal Wolsey as Archbishop of York. The Chancellor was the person who made Parliament function being the go between for the monarch and parliament. The Tudor court under Henry VIII was a helter-skelter ride. With hard work, if you were useful to Henry you could rise substantially, conversely you may fall. Intrigue was all around you. In the next century parliament had gained more power. This is before the Great Reform Act and rotten boroughs existed like Old Sarum, that is outside Salisbury. Huntingdon would represent basically gentleman-farmers. Womens suffrage was a long way off. Not far from London and as a Cambridge student Oliver's world would have been quite intense. As a companion of Pym, Brereton etc " The birds have flown", the growing Arminianism would have been difficult for a budding puritan. However it seems after the original capture of Charles I it seems Oliver was quite placatory but his fellow travellers less so. He seems to have fallen out with the early Parliamentary leaders and was instrumental in the New Model Army which was quite decisive. Looking back have either had permanent mark on English history? Not really. Royalty, with caveats, was restored.
I think it’s pretty much 50/50. It depends where you get your knowledge from, years ago Oliver was more famous as people tended to learn about him at school in the UK, but I feel Thomas has been brought more into common knowledge because of the seemingly endless fascination with the Tudors and so many books, films and television programmes.
I can't believe that it's never occurred to me to think that they might be related before. Thank you for this! If a throne can be passed down through a woman surely a surname can be.
Bev, do not worry about it. I'm a professional historian and total Tudor nerd and yet I was an embarrassing age before I realised that Robert Dudley was the brother of Guildford Dudley and therefore Lady Jane Grey's brother-in-law. Sometimes we just can't see the wood for the trees. :-)
@@HistoryCalling I only learned that Robert and Guilford Dudley were brothers last year and that was from another RUclipsr. I knew who both were concerning Elizabeth I and Jane Grey of course but I never thought to connect the surname.
@@HistoryCalling There is/was a young rugby player called Twelvetrees whose father took his wife's surname to keep the name going. I think it is a west country name. He played a couple of times for England a few years ago.
It's pretty rare for a married woman to pass down a surname like this- it's usually when a woman has an illegitimate child who takes her surname. My own surname only goes back 4 generations on the male line before it hits a woman, lol- I'm descended from one of her 3 illegitimate sons, all of whom were convicts.
Right now--at least here in the States--I believe Thomas is the more famous because of everyone's fascination with the Tudors, enhanced by many gifted historical novelists and filmmakers. Of course, the great Hillary Mantel and the equally gifted Mark Rylance (brilliantly supported by Damian Lewis and Claire Foy) have made Thomas almost a hero with the three novels and the tv show "Wolf Hall." Such an accomplishment to have transformed this ruthless and crafty man into such a sympathetic figure. I wonder if anyone could ever do the same for his great-great-grandnephew. It doesn't seem possible! My English ancestors all came to the Americas during the 17th century, some came as Puritans and some came later in the century, possibly to get away from them. Thank you once again for an excellent presentation. Instead of TGIF, it's now TGIHC!
Yes, I think Mantel's work has indeed done a lot to rehabilitate Thomas. It's strange through that there aren't more screen portrayals of Oliver. He arguably had a greater impact on history.
Mantel makes Thomas Cromwell into a flawed human being, as we all are. I think Henry VIII did exactly what he wanted to do. He may have plotted with Cromwell how to get rid of Anne, but it was all Henry.
@@HistoryCalling Oliver definitely had a greater impact, but he comes across as rather a dour figure (what, no Christmas?). It will take some real creativity to transform his image!
Oliver Cromwell Killed Thousands of Irish he also at The siege of Clonmel, my Hometown from 27 April to 18 May 1650, took place during the Cromwellian conquest of Ireland, when Clonmel in County Tipperary was besieged by 8,000 men from the New Model Army under Oliver Cromwell. The garrison of 1,500 commanded by Hugh Dubh O'Neill eventually surrendered after inflicting heavy casualties on the besiegers. O'Neill escaped with some of his troops, but although the Irish Confederate Wars continued until 1653, Clonmel ended effective Royalist resistance in Ireland, and Cromwell returned to England immediately afterward. After five weeks of close investment and nearly three months since the first elements of the New Model Army appeared before the town the New Model Army's losses were between 2,000 and 2,500, with hundreds more wounded, its largest ever loss in a single action. So in Ireland, the name Cromwell is hated but I still love History.
Ah, we"re back to our favorite king(...) Henry the 8th; when life didn't go his way he throws A temper tantrum-He wants to be king of France-Not gonna to happen, he want multiple sons-not gonna to happen-And when A certain woman doesn't meet his standard of beauty he wants to cast them aside and put the blame on someone else. He apparently didn't look at all angles of history; when you have TOO many sons- that cause problem. War of the roses.
Funny, but that also sounds like China’s problem in the modern day…too many sons, that is. When China instituted its one child policy, everyone having children hoped for and kept sons, but “threw away” their girls (giving them up to orphanages and adoption). Then their sons grew up, but there were, in some cases still are, very few young women for them to marry. Suddenly those families that welcomed and kept their daughters are like royalty. Everyone wants them. Young ladies could afford to be very choosy while young men and their parents were left scrambling.
Haha, yes, we're finally looking at the Cromwells in a little more detail. I'll be honest though - after the previous two videos which were both over 30 minutes long, the appeal of this was the ability to say what I needed to say in 10 minutes.
Thomas Cromwell is the most famous Cromwell. He worked for the infamous Henry 8th. He helped Henry get rid of his second wife. Anne Boleyn was the first queen to be executed. This era has inspired novels, Movies and TV shows. Americans and Mexicans can’t get enough of Tudor history. I’ve watched the Tudors in English and in Spanish. I even have novels in Spanish. I spend time with my cousins and friends discussing Tudor history. Thank you for this video. Have a lovely weekend. 🌞 😊
Have you studied the Spanish royals and nobles? They have quite an interesting tale, as well. You are probably a descendant of King Garcia, El Cid, etc... check it out, if you haven't. Best wishes!!
Yes, the Tudors are popular pretty much everywhere I think and they never go out of fashion. I'm sure they'd be flattered if they knew how famous they still are.
Considering the circumstances of their executions, I find it interesting that Oliver was descended from Thomas’ sister and Charles I was descended from Henry VIII’s sister. Personally I’d say Oliver is the more famous as he’s generally covered in school history lessons so most people know roughly who he was even if they’ve never studied history by themselves after leaving school, whilst Thomas isn’t really known to people who aren’t into the Tudors.
Yes, you see, people are always overlooking women in history but they're often the most important ones :-) Yes, Oliver does maybe have a bit more name recognition for non Tudor nerds, though Wolf Hall has definitely helped Thomas's fame.
I'd say the opposite. I think there are far more fans/students of Tudor history than Civil.War history, if we can judge by the extent to which each period is dealt with in popular culture - historical fiction, movies, tv etc. So I.would.think more people would have at least some recognition of Thomas than Oliver.
Unless they majored in early modern history in their post-secondary studies (as I did) most Americans never studied Oliver Cromwell in school. They only know the hyped-up and romanticized version of the story of Plymouth Rock and the Puritans who first settled in Massachusetts, not the ones who stayed behind in England.
@@annmoore6678 I was only talking about people in the UK really, not worldwide. I don’t expect Americans to know much about either the English civil wars or the Tudors, same as I don’t know much about American history.
Before I started following this channel I was most familiar with Oliver Cromwell, and that was only from the Monty Python song about him. I love history, but I was never really curious about the Tudor era until I watched one of your videos, and now working my way through your entire channel. I'm really enjoying it, so thank you for all the hard work you've put into these.
I have a confession - I'm not familiar with the Monty Python song 😳 It's bad I know. I should hang my head in shame given how famous Monty Python is. On a happier note though, I'm delighted you're enjoying the channel and finding it useful.
In history lessons in the 80s, 90's, Hungary, we learned about Oliver Cromwell. Today's global film and literature culture must have made Thomas Cromwell well known , or even better known as well, outside of Great Britain. Personally, I think about Oliver when I hear the name Cromwell.
Other interesting people of the period who were related: George Villiers (favourite of James I) and Barbara Villiers (mistress of Charles I). They were great uncle and great niece
Another great video. 🙂 Interesting question, my first thought was Oliver because out of context, his name is immediately known. Then I looked at the comments & I have to agree with the person who said it depends on how you've learnt about the history - books or TV. Following the discussion there, I must admit I'd like to see a more modern take on Oliver Cromwell in film or a TV series. I wonder if he really could be made into a more appealing character? You mentioned he suffered from depression so that could be an 'in' for a modern audience. 🤔 That has me thinking, depression is seen (by some) as a modern condition. I'd be interested in knowing how far back it was being diagnosed, I assume mainly in men. My guess is in women it'd be put down to 'female issues'? Or no records at all, if they didn't even keep track of their names!
That is an interesting question. I'm afraid I don't know the answer though. I don't think humans have changed all that much, so I suspect people have suffered from depression/melancholia/low spirits (whatever you want to call it) for millennia and it just wasn't recognised as a medical condition in many cases. Obviously there are known cases of people taking their own lives dating back to ancient times, so it was probably as prevalent then as now, but that's just a supposition on my part.
👏👏Back to drop a like, HC! I hope this shorter video provided a bit of a break; your last few were longer. No matter the length, your presentations always blow me away with their detail and presentation. Keep 'em coming (but remember, breaks are healthy)! ! Until next week, be well.
@@HistoryCalling I sympathize. This morning my sculptor friend texted me after ending an all-night session. Commitment to one's craft (which to me includes your dedication to producing quality videos) can certainly lead to blood, sweat and tears. Your fans are grateful. 🙏🏼
Thank you. I wasn't sure at first either until I started researching it, but it's a very interesting family tree. I wish one of my ancestors was called the Golden Knight. It sounds very Game of Thrones.
Thank you for another excellent history presentation. I always think Oliver is the better known of the two but I'm biased because I am a member of Republic and we are still trying to banish the monarchy into history. Unlike Oliver though we have no plans to cancel Christmas or carnal and sensual delights 😉
THANK YOU SO MUCH for your very kind donation to the channel. I'm also glad to read that while you sympathise with some of OC's beliefs, you won't be cancelling Christmas :-)
Very interesting video. I did the same thing and took my mothers maiden name as my surname. More so to keep the family name alive. So not all that unheard of. Keep up the great videos!!
Yes. Oliver is the great grandson of the sister of Thomas, who changed her married name back to Cromwell when her brother became famous. What I WOULD to know is whether Thomas was related to the Cromwell in Henry IV. Fun fact. I live near Ely. We have the only house Oliver lived in to survive except for Hampton Court. He worked as a tax collector there in the 1530s.
@@edithengel2284 Baron Cromwell was a major military figure who served Henry IV, V and VI. He had no children but his nieces married well. Oliver was the grandson of the sister of Thomas. He would have been Williams, her married name, but she changed it back to Cromwell when he became Earl of Essex.
I knew both were somehow related but that Oliver's family had changed their surname. Thank you, in particular, for the family tree diagram which clearly illustrated the familial link. To me both are equally famous....or infamous. I wonder how many Cromwell descendants are living today, perhaps not knowing their links to these historical figures? 🙄
Short & to the point. Sometimes the best way 😊. I can see how it might get confusing for some folk - but I've seen Wolf Hall, don't you know, so I already knew about Richard (nee Williams and the line down). LOL. I think neither of them can outdo each other on the notoriety stakes. 1 a Queen killer, the other a King murderer. I will err on the side of Thomas out of favouritism. He is the one that most folk regard for introducing the Census via Births, Marriages and Deaths (or Hatches, Matches and Despatches as I call them) I could go on, but I won't. Perhaps a future presentation on O.C. at a later date? TBH, not really that well read up on him. Thanks ever so much for your continued slog. Have a break - or a Kit Kat. 🤓🤣
Short and to the point was just what I needed after putting together the two previous videos (both over 30 minutes and left me mentally fried to a crisp by the time they were done). This will make you laugh though and perhaps give away my age. I saw O.C. and immediately thought of the TV show The O.C. 😅 Like I said, I've been fried to a crisp, so let's not judge my dopey moment too harshly :-)
@@HistoryCalling Hey! Who am I to judge? At least you'll never be as old as me. While I'm alive, that is.😂 And weird fact, T.C was executed on my birthday🤯
@chrisbanks6659, Glad you decided not to "go on"... the LOL was "on" enough. Didn't strike you how the "farmer" and rather "dim" MP acquired so much power ,and money, necessary to outdo the King's Treasury. By his "conversion" no doubt? Something akin to "the parting of the Red Sea."
As soon as you said he was not a direct descendant and mentioned the sister, I was like, "Okay, so either he's a third cousin, four times removed or something, or he's a descendant of the sister and changed the last name for nepotism." I used to confuse them a lot. I thought Oliver was the one murdered by Henry VIII and then I realized that they had the same last name and it was actually Thomas.
Very interesting topic. Well done! Oliver Cromwell did a lot of damage in the term, and is perhaps more famous of the two. But I believe that Thomas changed England in a long run and is therefore more influential, albeit lesser known. Funny fact. I work near Cromwell road in London. I use to wonder, every time I waited for the pedestrian traffic light to turn green, which one of the two gave name to this massive busy road. To my surprise it turned out that it was named after Richard, Oliver’s son. Having a house in the right place topples a king slayer and religious reformer. Apparently 😅
That was probably one of your more simple videos, but I appreciated it. I’ve always gotten confused over the whole prom well thing. So it was interesting to see what the connection was between the two. As for who is more famous I’m going with the first Bromwell.
Brilliant video. I think they are both the most famous members of the House of Cromwell. Another interesting fact about Oliver Cromwell is that he was a descendent of Cadwagn ap Bleddyn, Prince of Powys.
I heard or read about Oliver long before I heard of Thomas. But as an American British history has all been do-it-yourself. I'm glad there are so many good history programs these days.
He was a distant blood relative though. I like to try and trace my ancestry back as far as possible through whichever branch has the most records. I have managed to trace my family to a seymour, but not Queen Jane's family, but another branch who liked to think they were connected but probably weren't
Hi, Awesome live history video I enjoyed it can't wait to see more soon. Your videos are always enjoyable and relaxing. How are you doing? I'm doing well. Have a great day see you next video greetings from Canada 😀
Thank you for this video! I always wondered if they were related! It’s interesting to find out Oliver was descended through Thomas’ sister! I think Thomas was the more famous because he worked for Henry Vlll and plotted Anne Boleyn’s downfall. Can’t wait to tune in next week!
@@HistoryCalling I seem to remember that Thomas Cromwell had some nephews living with him at some point, but I don't think it was Williams b/c I think he was living with Henry Grey.
Interesting family tree! Love that kind of visual map! It makes it so much easier to understand the connection! My family's lineage is almost all from the British Isles. My father is an only son, and my brother is an only son. I only have one son, who also has an only son, so our male lineage is continued through them, even though they have my ex's last name. My brother has one daughter, so she is our direct line from him. She is married and uses her husband's last name, as does her only daughter. So, no more males from my immediate family with our last name. My paternal grandfather had brothers, so I know there are more probably out there somewhere, just not in my direct family line. Family lines are fun - I think that's part of the reason I enjoyed seeing the Cromwell tree so much!!
@@HistoryCalling yes- starting with the “21” years old ascribed to her. She does strike me as more pleasant looking than Jane though, but they are much alike in my eyes
@@HistoryCalling I have Seymours in my family tree, and I believe we still look like them quite alot.. and this isn't a brag as Jane is very plain.. but that's what we look like in my family. Myself included. lol
@@HistoryCalling Given that Holbein was probably hoping to convey her appearance in the best possible light, it is astonishing, at least to the modern eye, that this was Jane at her best. Even disregarding what one makes of her physical attractiveness, she does not convey an attractive personality.
Even though I mix these two men up all the time, it never occurred to me that they might be related! I’m going to put the blame on having a very common surname myself; I just assume it’s a coincidence when two people share a last name. Thanks for setting me straight! 😉 As always, I’m looking forward to your next video!
Hi, awesome live history video I enjoyed it. How are you doing. Im doing well and so is my cat. All your live history videos are always enjoyable have a great weekend see you next video 😊
As always, a great video and topic. I think Americans recognize Thomas because of the recent Tudor movies, specials, etc. I do remember studying Oliver in school. Each led complicated lives with unfortunate results. Thank you HC. Will be waiting for your next endeavor. ☺️
Weirdly we never looked at either Cromwell in school, but then again I'm from Northern Ireland and looking at any kind of local religious history or the English in Ireland has the potential to get messy. It's probably for the best that we skipped it.
I learned in school about Oliver Cromwell, and when I heard about Thomas, I thought they might be related through children, or brothers or something. But I was sure there couldn't be just a name coincidence. It is a bit ironic come to think of it...
Yes, it is an unusual enough name to assume some sort of link, but honestly it was ages before I ever made the connection. I don't know how I missed it for so long.
Big fan of your excellent videos. Oliver Cromwell defeated one of my relatives at the Battle of Dumbar, 1650. My Scottish relative was imprisoned and then sent by ship to Barbados and then Maryland as an indentured servant. He eventually prospered, was awarded land and was referred to as The Rock of Dumbarton for his military prowess. Saw his historic plaque in Georgetown. Ninian Beall
Great job with another fantastic video. This reminds me of A another story I heard; Abraham Lincoln's mother side last name Lee and some just assumed that she was related to Robert E Lee.
@@HistoryCalling Robert E. Lee was the general who led the Confederate Army when the Southern States seceded from the Union and waged war against the rest of the United States (1860-1865). So militarily speaking, he was Abraham Lincoln's chief opponent.
Being from Virginia area and English, Lee will have significant noble, and almost for sure royals in his lines... as we all do who have links there. It may be pretty far back, but I'm almost positive it'd be found. Considering his leadership and military abilities, it's almost a guarantee it'll be there. Might be in the 1400's, but it'll be there.
I'm curious, as an American, where your accent hails from. It doesn't sound fully Scottish to my ear, so I was wondering if you're more northern English? Thank you for the lovely and concise video.
Nice one. It had occurred to me that they might possibly be related, but as an amateur genealogist I know that just because two people share the same surname, it doesn't guarantee that they are related -- particularly a "common" surname. So I may be a genealogy "bore," but I have the saving grace that I am also interested in other people's genealogy. I'm an avid watcher of the various "Who Do You Think You Are" programs -- British, Australian and American and I often don't know any of the people they're featuring. But one British program stuck out in my mind, that of the actor Danny Dyer, who seems to have developed an old-fashioned Cockney schtick. (His father father doesn't talk like that.) It was shown that Danny was directly related to Thomas Cromwell. Danny seemed genuinely moved by Cromwell's life and the description of his last desperate message to Henry of "Mercy...Mercy." I think both Cromwells have been vilified for different reasons, but both were very complex and contradictory individuals and I don't think you can force either of them into "villain" roles.
I knew Thomas and Oliver were distantly related through Thomas’s nephew Richard Williams who became Richard Cromwell. As for who is the most famous, I think it depends on which bits of history you’re interested in. I think if you’re interested in the Civil War etc you’d be more aware of Oliver Cromwell, but if you’re like me, interested predominantly in the Tudor period, Thomas Cromwell will be the one you’re more aware of. I think Thomas has enjoyed a bit of a revival over the last few years. I think the late Hilary Mantel’s wonderful Wolf Hall trilogy has made people think about Thomas as a person, as someone who was more than the ‘thug in a doublet’ image he occupied in popular opinion for so long. I think people have realised there was more to him than his part in the judicial murder of Anne Boleyn and the dissolution of the monasteries. I’ve also listened to the audiobook version of Diarmaid McCulloch’s wonderful biography of Thomas Cromwell and learned that the Wolf Hall idea of him wasn’t too far away from the truth, he was popular amongst ladies of a certain age because of his entertaining and he was very close to his family, so much so that the family didn’t enjoy being separated for any length of time. Yes, Thomas Cromwell was involved in some very bad things, but then again so were many others at the court of Henry VIII, they were cruel times. In comparison to the things I’ve learned about Thomas, I know very little about Oliver Cromwell. Perhaps he needs a TV drama to be made about him, just to bring him to people’s attention.
TBF I did know of Thomas Cromwell being adopted his nephew before from reading Wolf Hall albeit I probably covered it for O level history but that was a long long time ago :D
Oliver Cromwell was voted one of the ten most famous/important Britons who ever lived, in a BBC TV programme about twenty years ago. Thomas Cromwell was not in the top ten. But they were very distantly related by marriage through Thomas’s sister, Kathryn. Indeed, Oliver’s paternal side used the surname ‘Williams alias Cromwell’, presumably as a tribute to Thomas, who had been executed after he fell out with Henry VIII.
So, to be correct, Oliver Cromwell, the great Protector, was in fact Oliver Williams alias Cromwell. Similarly his father was Robert Williams alias Cromwell and so on back to a great grandfather, Richard Williams. He was the Williams who married Kathryn the sister of Thomas Cromwell, the one who was executed by King Henry viii. 😵💫
So, he was a great great grandnephew or some such. Still related, even if not really by name. I confess, I have a soft spot for Oliver, who let the Jews return to England.
Thanks, this was interesting. I think Oliver is always going to be the famous one. He was financed by the British and let them back in England. They came back with their entourages of loan collectors ("Aloysius Parkers") who were even less popular with the public. Aemelia Vasano - the Greek woman who wrote - "the Merchant of Venice", is a perfect example of those British, to study.
When I hear the name Cromwell I think of the king killer, Oliver. My interest is Scottish history & especially the Stewarts before they inherited the English crown. However I've always considered the possibility the two Cromwells were kin. I spent an unpleasant amount of time going down Cromwell rabbit holes & found NX. I foolishly never con sidered looking thru female relatives for the connection. Thank you very much for this video.
I recall hearing years ago that Oliver was connected to Thomas by a female ancestor, but it did not register that this should have implied a change of name . Thanks for spelling it out. I was correct in my view and you explained why he kept that infamous name for my opinion of both if them is that I despise Thomas Cromwell but i utterly loathe Oliver the tyrant, religious fanatic, genocidist, and, as i do take my theology very seriously, heretic. I am no catholic but my detestation of puritanism is deep, and i believe serious and principled. enough said
I'd heard that they were distantly related before I think Winston Churchill mentions it in the History of the English speaking people's? Never seen the detail of it explained before so thank you. On the question you ask that's a tricky one. The 'Republican experiment' disappeared with Oliver so quickly that I'm inclined toward Thomas because the move toward protestantism was more permanent. I wonder if that would have happened irrespective of Thomas Cromwell? My guess is probably. You could just as easily argue though that the Republican period is now seen (history is written by the winners) as so ghastly that it has strengthened the monarchy here? Like I said that's a really tough question!
Churchill is another surname swap isn’t it ? If I remember correctly the original Churchill line went extinct, the estates and such being inherited by the Spencers, a junior line of the Spencers eventually took the surname name Churchill in honour of their maternal ancestors.
I wonder. I do a lot of portrait drawings. When I saw the pictures of the two men side by side, I saw two very similar features. the shape of the mouth and the shape of the area above the eye and below the brow. It's the kind of thing I would have picked up on even were the topic not 'Are they related?'.
Apparently, Oliver Cromwell descended from the tudors. Owen Tudor had a mistress and his illegitimate child was Cromwell's ancestor. This was after Queen Catherine's death.
my favourite depiction of Thomas Cromwell is the bbc mini series “wolf hall” finally they are doing the next mini series leading up to his death “the mirror and the light” Who was richer? Thomas I think? I keep forgetting MPS back then where not common men (as they described it) they where gentlemen and members of the gentry
Yes, you can't beat Mark Rylance. Are they doing another series? I literally just told someone else in the comments that I didn't think we'd ever see it. Oops! I would say Thomas (at his peak) was the richer of the two, but it's admittedly just a guess. He was briefly Earl of Essex though and that suggests plenty of dosh.
@@HistoryCalling yes!! fair tho the bbc only announced it a few weeks back because the author who penned the book series which wolf hall is adapted from sadly passed and the bbc wanted to finish the series because of the HUGE! numbers of people streaming wolf hall and Mark Rylance was pestering the living hell out of them apparently lol.
It make sense to me that he would take the name Cromwell or Cramwell and pronounced in "Wolf Hall" (loved that line) If you would ever get the opportunity to do unto the crown as was done unto your family wouldn't you want the same name? Who is more popular? To me it depends on if you lean strongly on movies, TV ect or written history. I think movies and TV show the first one the most I have only seen one movie about Charles I and Cromwell where there are thousands of movies. If you go by written history they might come out equal.
Excellent always wondered if we're related,,thanks ,,,,we're do I find out if there was a battle in st helens Merseyside I've been told Cromwell stay in a camp not far from me ❤❤
Have you ever considered a mystery video on what happened to Mary Boleyn after her second marriage, and what became of her two youngest children? It always baffles me how her children vanished from history and we know nothing of how the Queen’s sister lived after Anne’s execution Apparently she had a son named Edward and a daughter named Anne with William Stafford, but no records of their lives exist
I suspect the information about Mary's final years and her Stafford children, if there were children, is so meager there isn't enough even enough with which to make a blog post. Mary was basically an unperson after her marriage to Stafford was revealed, and certainly even more so after the fall of her sister, so it's not particularly surprising there is very little in the record about her after her exile from court. Her children with Stafford, if there were any, may have died young and in any event, they languished in the same social obscurity as their parents. (Given Queen Elizabeth's quiet attachment to and promotion of her maternal relatives, the fact that no young Staffords were resuscitated probably means, to me, that either such children were already dead, or had never existed.)
@@edithengel2284 I do agree that there is very little I for,action, and given how little we know about Edward and Anne Stafford I assume they died in childhood. All we know for certain is that Mary was pregnant when she was banished from court
And thank you for taking the time to watch it here on the channel, complete with ad. I really wouldn't be offended if you didn't considering you've already got access to the ad-free Patreon version, but it's much appreciated.
By the by (can’t miss out that one lol) what is your opinion on Elizabeth I’s treatment of the Grey sisters (specifically Katherine as I find her story more heartbreaking)
Hmm. She wasn't very kind to Katherine and yet at the same time, she didn't execute her in the way that Mary did Lady Jane. She could have been better, she could have been worse. She was in a tricky position given that Katherine was her legal heir and Katherine was pretty daft to marry and become pregnant without permission.
true… but Jane did pose a bigger threat to Mary than Katherine to Elizabeth- her council merely wanted her to name her her heir (damn it so many “her”s😭)
We could get so sidetracked here on the threat Jane did or didn't pose :-) She was imprisoned, she couldn't get pregnant and the second she died her claim passed to Katherine who was (at that time) free, so I don't see Jane as any particular threat to Mary at the time of her death. I think Mary's main concern was or ought to have been her actual heir, Elizabeth. Katherine on the other hand was Elizabeth's direct heir, she'd married and produced a boy and she was just one heartbeat away from the throne. I'm not surprised she made Elizabeth very uncomfortable. You can certainly argue this debate either way though, so I completely respect your assessment that Jane was more of a problem for Mary than Katherine was for Elizabeth.
@@HistoryCalling Yeah Ik😭 Gosh I hope I didn’t sound like I support Jane’s execution- far from it the poor girl was little more than a pawn and acting according to what she believed was right- honestly I wish Henry Grey would have stay out of rebellions- he had just been pardoned and Mary wished to pardon Jane too, WHY OH WHY did he rebel against Mary again? But yes, Elizabeth was, in any case, the biggest threat, and maybe it was sisterly love (if we can call it that, as Mary did like Elizabeth at first but after Henry’s death and specially after she was on the throne it al went downwards) that kept her from imprisoning Elizabeth for life or even beheading her. But truly that was a messed up family😭
From what I've read there is no evidence for this. Cromwell was supposed to be descended from the illegitimate daughter, Joan, of Jasper Tudor Earl of Bedford, but there is nothing to prove this woman actually existed. If I remember correctly, the first historical mention of her was in the 19th c., centuries after Jasper Tudor's death.
I always assumed they were related as power broker families did run generations. but to hear oliver's mother's maiden name was 'stuart'? that's worth a chuckle f nothing else.
Williams is a relatively common name in Wales. Perhaps adopting a far less common name had the advantages of avoiding confusion with other Williamses and being more distinctive and memorable.
Some of those portraits of Thomas Cromwell remind me of James Gandolfini. Gandolfini could have played him if the opportunity arose. He would have done a good job.
This is something I’ve wondered so I was excited to watch this one. I certainly didn’t see that family link coming! Is it known where the basis was for the accusation of Thomas Cromwell wanting to marry the princess Mary? And to answer your own question, living in Worcester I’d probably say that Oliver Cromwell is far more infamous here.
@@HistoryCalling I'd be very surprised. I know we only really get one side to it, but it sounded like he was pretty much what we'd now recognise as a company man, doing whatever Henry asked, at whatever cost.
Difficult one. I think Thomas Cromwell rose from obscure beginnings to Chancellor. Before the office of prime minister was instituted the Chancellor was the pinnacle a commoner could attain. Indeed the office had been held by Archbishops and Cardinals as dual occupations as was Cromwell's predecessor Cardinal Wolsey as Archbishop of York. The Chancellor was the person who made Parliament function being the go between for the monarch and parliament. The Tudor court under Henry VIII was a helter-skelter ride. With hard work, if you were useful to Henry you could rise substantially, conversely you may fall. Intrigue was all around you. In the next century parliament had gained more power. This is before the Great Reform Act and rotten boroughs existed like Old Sarum, that is outside Salisbury. Huntingdon would represent basically gentleman-farmers. Womens suffrage was a long way off. Not far from London and as a Cambridge student Oliver's world would have been quite intense. As a companion of Pym, Brereton etc " The birds have flown", the growing Arminianism would have been difficult for a budding puritan. However it seems after the original capture of Charles I it seems Oliver was quite placatory but his fellow travellers less so. He seems to have fallen out with the early Parliamentary leaders and was instrumental in the New Model Army which was quite decisive. Looking back have either had a permanent mark on English history? Not really. Royalty, with caveats, was restored.
I think Oliver Cromwell has made of a mark when you think of the number of people he caused to be killed and the destruction or selling off of the royal collection of art and jewels. It's tougher to judge Thomas. He didn't wield as much power as Oliver after all.
@@HistoryCalling Thomas spent a considerable time abroad before entering court circles. As an aside the later beligerance founded the "flintlock" which transformed robbery for the next hundred annals because it introduced the "highwayman" to the English countryside.
American here. Very familiar with the name Oliver Cromwell, but while you mentioned Oliver Cromwell as being reviled, you didn't really touch on what he is mostly reviled for, (at least over here), which is his slaughter of Catholics. I'm of half-Irish descent, by the way.
There is a captured Crimean War canon in front of Ely Cathedral. Is was gifted to or by Queen Victoria. It points directly at Oliver Cromwell's house which was the Tourist Information Office when I was last there.
Surnames are not as fixed and unchangeable as you suggest. In fact, they were only introduced by William the Conqueror for taxation puposes. Therefore, even in those times a man could have many sons all of which would adopt a surname from the estates that they acquired, not from their father.
Please do this for Lady Jane Grey and Sir Edward Grey (and Earl Grey of Reform Bill fame). I can’t find the answer and so guess maybe not but then again the aristocracy is a small place to have multiple disconnected Greys?
Im probably a minority here, but Oliver Cromwell is a kind of unsung hero, he killed a king yes, a bad King wee , just a silly king who didnt need to die, but chose to, by saying he was chosen by god and would not take that back there is a statue of Oliver cromwell outside parliment it is a warning to all Kings and Queens as we say. Dont push your monarch powers, I am not religious or over political, i preferred Thomas fairfax, founder of the new model army abd did not want the death of a king, great videos and content.
Ah, a controversial opinion. I'll give the other side of this argument for fairness - is it really ok to kill someone just cause they're quite bad at their job and very stubborn, even in the 17th century? They had him in custody after all and the second he died his claim to throne immediately passed to his son, who was free and living in mainland Europe.
@@HistoryCalling i think all opinions are fair on this matter, True fact but somewhat Ironic, Oliver Cromwell was known for his love of practical jokes.
Was it necessary to kill him? It did them no particular good that couldn't have been accomplished by locking him up in theTower. His sons were still alive and well. Furthermore, any man whose regime could be responsible for the ill treatment and casual negligence of a young girl, the Princess Elizabeth, is not worthy to be a hero, sung or unsung.
It is simply a convention that women change their names on marriage, and that children take their father’s surname. In fact under the common laws person’s name is simply the name by which they are commonly known. Thus there is nothing dubious about Oliver Cromwell using the name Cromwell, particularly as it was his family’s surname for 4 generations. The problem is that the conventions of surnames are so strong many people believe they have the force of law behind them.
I just thought Richard's parents died and he was adopted under Thomas Cromwell by joining his household? Isn't this normal in adoption historically in England?
Which of these two do you think is the more famous member of the house of Cromwell? Let me know below and remember to check me out at:
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hmmm tricky one- I feel inclined to say Thomas, mainly because of how famous Anne Boleyn is, but Oliver is infamous as well- I truly don’t know
It is indeed a tough one. When I hear Cromwell I think of them both, so I don't know which one I'd choose either.
Personally, I am inclined to say Oliver, as if I hear the name Cromwell that's who I think about. But both had a pretty major impact on British royal history, and politics
Difficult one. I think Thomas Cromwell rose from obscure beginnings to Chancellor. Before the office of prime minister was instituted the Chancellor was the pinnacle a commoner could attain. Indeed the office had been held by Archbishops and Cardinals as dual occupations as was Cromwell's predecessor Cardinal Wolsey as Archbishop of York.
The Chancellor was the person who made Parliament function being the go between for the monarch and parliament. The Tudor court under Henry VIII was a helter-skelter ride. With hard work, if you were useful to Henry you could rise substantially, conversely you may fall. Intrigue was all around you.
In the next century parliament had gained more power. This is before the Great Reform Act and rotten boroughs existed like Old Sarum, that is outside Salisbury. Huntingdon would represent basically gentleman-farmers. Womens suffrage was a long way off. Not far from London and as a Cambridge student Oliver's world would have been quite intense.
As a companion of Pym, Brereton etc " The birds have flown", the growing Arminianism would have been difficult for a budding puritan.
However it seems after the original capture of Charles I it seems Oliver was quite placatory but his fellow travellers less so.
He seems to have fallen out with the early Parliamentary leaders and was instrumental in the New Model Army which was quite decisive.
Looking back have either had permanent mark on English history?
Not really. Royalty, with caveats, was restored.
I think it’s pretty much 50/50. It depends where you get your knowledge from, years ago Oliver was more famous as people tended to learn about him at school in the UK, but I feel Thomas has been brought more into common knowledge because of the seemingly endless fascination with the Tudors and so many books, films and television programmes.
I can't believe that it's never occurred to me to think that they might be related before. Thank you for this! If a throne can be passed down through a woman surely a surname can be.
Bev, do not worry about it. I'm a professional historian and total Tudor nerd and yet I was an embarrassing age before I realised that Robert Dudley was the brother of Guildford Dudley and therefore Lady Jane Grey's brother-in-law. Sometimes we just can't see the wood for the trees. :-)
@@HistoryCalling Ain't that the truth!
@@HistoryCalling I only learned that Robert and Guilford Dudley were brothers last year and that was from another RUclipsr. I knew who both were concerning Elizabeth I and Jane Grey of course but I never thought to connect the surname.
@@HistoryCalling There is/was a young rugby player called Twelvetrees whose father took his wife's surname to keep the name going. I think it is a west country name. He played a couple of times for England a few years ago.
It's pretty rare for a married woman to pass down a surname like this- it's usually when a woman has an illegitimate child who takes her surname. My own surname only goes back 4 generations on the male line before it hits a woman, lol- I'm descended from one of her 3 illegitimate sons, all of whom were convicts.
Right now--at least here in the States--I believe Thomas is the more famous because of everyone's fascination with the Tudors, enhanced by many gifted historical novelists and filmmakers. Of course, the great Hillary Mantel and the equally gifted Mark Rylance (brilliantly supported by Damian Lewis and Claire Foy) have made Thomas almost a hero with the three novels and the tv show "Wolf Hall." Such an accomplishment to have transformed this ruthless and crafty man into such a sympathetic figure. I wonder if anyone could ever do the same for his great-great-grandnephew. It doesn't seem possible! My English ancestors all came to the Americas during the 17th century, some came as Puritans and some came later in the century, possibly to get away from them. Thank you once again for an excellent presentation. Instead of TGIF, it's now TGIHC!
Yes, I think Mantel's work has indeed done a lot to rehabilitate Thomas. It's strange through that there aren't more screen portrayals of Oliver. He arguably had a greater impact on history.
Mantel makes Thomas Cromwell into a flawed human being, as we all are. I think Henry VIII did exactly what he wanted to do. He may have plotted with Cromwell how to get rid of Anne, but it was all Henry.
@@HistoryCalling Oliver definitely had a greater impact, but he comes across as rather a dour figure (what, no Christmas?). It will take some real creativity to transform his image!
Oliver Cromwell Killed Thousands of Irish he also at The siege of Clonmel, my Hometown from 27 April to 18 May 1650, took place during the Cromwellian conquest of Ireland, when Clonmel in County Tipperary was besieged by 8,000 men from the New Model Army under Oliver Cromwell. The garrison of 1,500 commanded by Hugh Dubh O'Neill eventually surrendered after inflicting heavy casualties on the besiegers.
O'Neill escaped with some of his troops, but although the Irish Confederate Wars continued until 1653, Clonmel ended effective Royalist resistance in Ireland, and Cromwell returned to England immediately afterward. After five weeks of close investment and nearly three months since the first elements of the New Model Army appeared before the town the New Model Army's losses were between 2,000 and 2,500, with hundreds more wounded, its largest ever loss in a single action. So in Ireland, the name Cromwell is hated but I still love History.
I did see that finally there is a plan to finish the TV series basically The Mirror and the Light will be season2 expected to air next year.
Ah, we"re back to our favorite king(...) Henry the 8th; when life didn't go his way he throws A temper tantrum-He wants to be king of France-Not gonna to happen, he want multiple sons-not gonna to happen-And when A certain woman doesn't meet his standard of beauty he wants to cast them aside and put the blame on someone else. He apparently didn't look at all angles of history; when you have TOO many sons- that cause problem. War of the roses.
Exactly. Too many boys can indeed cause issues. People should just appreciate girls more (of course as a woman I admit I might be a bit biased) :-)
@@HistoryCalling Believe it or not, king Ferdinand seventh of Spain was worse.
Funny, but that also sounds like China’s problem in the modern day…too many sons, that is. When China instituted its one child policy, everyone having children hoped for and kept sons, but “threw away” their girls (giving them up to orphanages and adoption). Then their sons grew up, but there were, in some cases still are, very few young women for them to marry. Suddenly those families that welcomed and kept their daughters are like royalty. Everyone wants them. Young ladies could afford to be very choosy while young men and their parents were left scrambling.
My favorite king is Henry V
Henry the 8th. Such a nightmare human being. Deadly as poison to nearly everyone.
Oh my. So we get to it at last. Have been waiting for YONKS for something like this. Will comment after I watch it now 😃
Haha, yes, we're finally looking at the Cromwells in a little more detail. I'll be honest though - after the previous two videos which were both over 30 minutes long, the appeal of this was the ability to say what I needed to say in 10 minutes.
Thomas Cromwell is the most famous Cromwell. He worked for the infamous Henry 8th. He helped Henry get rid of his second wife. Anne Boleyn was the first queen to be executed. This era has inspired novels, Movies and TV shows. Americans and Mexicans can’t get enough of Tudor history. I’ve watched the Tudors in English and in Spanish. I even have novels in Spanish. I spend time with my cousins and friends discussing Tudor history.
Thank you for this video. Have a lovely weekend. 🌞 😊
Have you studied the Spanish royals and nobles? They have quite an interesting tale, as well. You are probably a descendant of King Garcia, El Cid, etc... check it out, if you haven't. Best wishes!!
Yes, the Tudors are popular pretty much everywhere I think and they never go out of fashion. I'm sure they'd be flattered if they knew how famous they still are.
@@HistoryCalling
I’ve been fascinated by Anne Boleyn since I saw Anne of the Thousand Days when I was about 12 years old.
Oliver is way more famous!
Oliver Cromwell is much more famous. Thomas Cromwell is not widely known among the public, outside of Tudor history buffs
Considering the circumstances of their executions, I find it interesting that Oliver was descended from Thomas’ sister and Charles I was descended from Henry VIII’s sister.
Personally I’d say Oliver is the more famous as he’s generally covered in school history lessons so most people know roughly who he was even if they’ve never studied history by themselves after leaving school, whilst Thomas isn’t really known to people who aren’t into the Tudors.
Yes, you see, people are always overlooking women in history but they're often the most important ones :-) Yes, Oliver does maybe have a bit more name recognition for non Tudor nerds, though Wolf Hall has definitely helped Thomas's fame.
I'd say the opposite.
I think there are far more fans/students of Tudor history than Civil.War history, if we can judge by the extent to which each period is dealt with in popular culture - historical fiction, movies, tv etc.
So I.would.think more people would have at least some recognition of Thomas than Oliver.
Unless they majored in early modern history in their post-secondary studies (as I did) most Americans never studied Oliver Cromwell in school. They only know the hyped-up and romanticized version of the story of Plymouth Rock and the Puritans who first settled in Massachusetts, not the ones who stayed behind in England.
@@annmoore6678 I was only talking about people in the UK really, not worldwide. I don’t expect Americans to know much about either the English civil wars or the Tudors, same as I don’t know much about American history.
@@kate_cooper Actually, Americans know a great deal more about the Tudors and even the Wars of the Roses than they do about Oliver Cromwell!
Before I started following this channel I was most familiar with Oliver Cromwell, and that was only from the Monty Python song about him. I love history, but I was never really curious about the Tudor era until I watched one of your videos, and now working my way through your entire channel. I'm really enjoying it, so thank you for all the hard work you've put into these.
I have a confession - I'm not familiar with the Monty Python song 😳 It's bad I know. I should hang my head in shame given how famous Monty Python is. On a happier note though, I'm delighted you're enjoying the channel and finding it useful.
Thank you so much for choosing this subject. I have wondered about their shared surname for many years.
No problem. I didn't know how they were related myself until researching this, so I was intrigued to find out as well.
In history lessons in the 80s, 90's, Hungary, we learned about Oliver Cromwell. Today's global film and literature culture must have made Thomas Cromwell well known , or even better known as well, outside of Great Britain. Personally, I think about Oliver when I hear the name Cromwell.
I absolutely LOVE this channel! Can’t say much more… ❤
Thanks Paddy :-)
Been looking for a clear and concise explanation on this for a week or so, thank you for satiating that interest. You’ve gained a subscriber.
Thank you, always good to hear your voice and learn from you on a Friday evening!
You're welcome. Glad you liked the video :-)
Another great video. Your videos are always so well researched and delivered in a happy manner.
Haha, now if you only heard the outtakes when I mess up the audio, you wouldn't think I was happy then! :-)
Other interesting people of the period who were related: George Villiers (favourite of James I) and Barbara Villiers (mistress of Charles I). They were great uncle and great niece
Great video very interesting.
Great stuff as always. Thanks for all your effort. Keeps me motivated!
Awesome, thank you :-)
Another great video. 🙂 Interesting question, my first thought was Oliver because out of context, his name is immediately known. Then I looked at the comments & I have to agree with the person who said it depends on how you've learnt about the history - books or TV.
Following the discussion there, I must admit I'd like to see a more modern take on Oliver Cromwell in film or a TV series. I wonder if he really could be made into a more appealing character? You mentioned he suffered from depression so that could be an 'in' for a modern audience. 🤔
That has me thinking, depression is seen (by some) as a modern condition. I'd be interested in knowing how far back it was being diagnosed, I assume mainly in men. My guess is in women it'd be put down to 'female issues'? Or no records at all, if they didn't even keep track of their names!
That is an interesting question. I'm afraid I don't know the answer though. I don't think humans have changed all that much, so I suspect people have suffered from depression/melancholia/low spirits (whatever you want to call it) for millennia and it just wasn't recognised as a medical condition in many cases. Obviously there are known cases of people taking their own lives dating back to ancient times, so it was probably as prevalent then as now, but that's just a supposition on my part.
Awesome video, always wondered this
I'd always wondered about this but never found anything definitive about it. Thank you!
Happy to help :-)
👏👏Back to drop a like, HC! I hope this shorter video provided a bit of a break; your last few were longer. No matter the length, your presentations always blow me away with their detail and presentation. Keep 'em coming (but remember, breaks are healthy)! ! Until next week, be well.
Thanks. Yes, I didn't think the Charles I one would be so long. I was internally groaning when I realised the length the script was getting to.
@@HistoryCalling I sympathize. This morning my sculptor friend texted me after ending an all-night session. Commitment to one's craft (which to me includes your dedication to producing quality videos) can certainly lead to blood, sweat and tears. Your fans are grateful. 🙏🏼
No blood yet thankfully, unless you count all the execution videos I've done, but fortunately for me I'm not the one who had to bleed for those :-)
Very good educational video, well done.
Thank you very much :-)
Always wondered if they were related!! Love the topics you choose.
Thank you. I wasn't sure at first either until I started researching it, but it's a very interesting family tree. I wish one of my ancestors was called the Golden Knight. It sounds very Game of Thrones.
Thank you for another excellent history presentation. I always think Oliver is the better known of the two but I'm biased because I am a member of Republic and we are still trying to banish the monarchy into history. Unlike Oliver though we have no plans to cancel Christmas or carnal and sensual delights 😉
THANK YOU SO MUCH for your very kind donation to the channel. I'm also glad to read that while you sympathise with some of OC's beliefs, you won't be cancelling Christmas :-)
Consistently excellent content! Thank you!
Much appreciated :-)
Thank you for this very clear and informative post!
You're very welcome :-)
I’ve wondered about this for awhile. Interesting!
Very interesting video. I did the same thing and took my mothers maiden name as my surname. More so to keep the family name alive. So not all that unheard of. Keep up the great videos!!
Yes. Oliver is the great grandson of the sister of Thomas, who changed her married name back to Cromwell when her brother became famous. What I WOULD to know is whether Thomas was related to the Cromwell in Henry IV. Fun fact. I live near Ely. We have the only house Oliver lived in to survive except for Hampton Court. He worked as a tax collector there in the 1530s.
I don't think there is a Cromwell in either part of Henry IV??
@@edithengel2284 Baron Cromwell was a major military figure who served Henry IV, V and VI. He had no children but his nieces married well. Oliver was the grandson of the sister of Thomas. He would have been Williams, her married name, but she changed it back to Cromwell when he became Earl of Essex.
@@Joanna-il2ur Thank you!
I knew both were somehow related but that Oliver's family had changed their surname. Thank you, in particular, for the family tree diagram which clearly illustrated the familial link. To me both are equally famous....or infamous. I wonder how many Cromwell descendants are living today, perhaps not knowing their links to these historical figures? 🙄
You never know. Maybe we're descended from him! :-)
Thank you for clearing this matter for me. I was always curious about the two name. Now that I know, I want to thank you. Thank you
Thank you ,very succinct and clearly explained
Short & to the point. Sometimes the best way 😊. I can see how it might get confusing for some folk - but I've seen Wolf Hall, don't you know, so I already knew about Richard (nee Williams and the line down). LOL. I think neither of them can outdo each other on the notoriety stakes. 1 a Queen killer, the other a King murderer. I will err on the side of Thomas out of favouritism. He is the one that most folk regard for introducing the Census via Births, Marriages and Deaths (or Hatches, Matches and Despatches as I call them) I could go on, but I won't. Perhaps a future presentation on O.C. at a later date? TBH, not really that well read up on him. Thanks ever so much for your continued slog. Have a break - or a Kit Kat. 🤓🤣
Short and to the point was just what I needed after putting together the two previous videos (both over 30 minutes and left me mentally fried to a crisp by the time they were done). This will make you laugh though and perhaps give away my age. I saw O.C. and immediately thought of the TV show The O.C. 😅 Like I said, I've been fried to a crisp, so let's not judge my dopey moment too harshly :-)
@@HistoryCalling Hey! Who am I to judge? At least you'll never be as old as me. While I'm alive, that is.😂 And weird fact, T.C was executed on my birthday🤯
@chrisbanks6659, Glad you decided not to "go on"... the LOL was "on" enough. Didn't strike you how the "farmer" and rather "dim" MP acquired so much power ,and money, necessary to outdo the King's Treasury. By his "conversion" no doubt? Something akin to "the parting of the Red Sea."
As soon as you said he was not a direct descendant and mentioned the sister, I was like, "Okay, so either he's a third cousin, four times removed or something, or he's a descendant of the sister and changed the last name for nepotism."
I used to confuse them a lot. I thought Oliver was the one murdered by Henry VIII and then I realized that they had the same last name and it was actually Thomas.
Yeah, I probably gave it away at that point, but I felt like I had to foreshadow the sister as she was returning later in the video.
I ask myself this question about once a month. Well done history calling for answering it 🎉😂
You're very welcome :-)
Very interesting topic. Well done! Oliver Cromwell did a lot of damage in the term, and is perhaps more famous of the two. But I believe that Thomas changed England in a long run and is therefore more influential, albeit lesser known.
Funny fact. I work near Cromwell road in London. I use to wonder, every time I waited for the pedestrian traffic light to turn green, which one of the two gave name to this massive busy road. To my surprise it turned out that it was named after Richard, Oliver’s son. Having a house in the right place topples a king slayer and religious reformer. Apparently 😅
I didn't know that about the street name. I would never have guessed Richard either.
That was probably one of your more simple videos, but I appreciated it. I’ve always gotten confused over the whole prom well thing. So it was interesting to see what the connection was between the two. As for who is more famous I’m going with the first Bromwell.
It was indeed quite simple, but after the very long ones in the past 2 weeks, boy did I need something short and easy :-)
Brilliant video. I think they are both the most famous members of the House of Cromwell. Another interesting fact about Oliver Cromwell is that he was a descendent of Cadwagn ap Bleddyn, Prince of Powys.
I heard or read about Oliver long before I heard of Thomas. But as an American British history has all been do-it-yourself. I'm glad there are so many good history programs these days.
I was totally thinking about this the other day and read up on it. Still going enjoy this 🥰
Great minds think alike :-)
He was a distant blood relative though. I like to try and trace my ancestry back as far as possible through whichever branch has the most records. I have managed to trace my family to a seymour, but not Queen Jane's family, but another branch who liked to think they were connected but probably weren't
Are you American?
Hi, Awesome live history video I enjoyed it can't wait to see more soon. Your videos are always enjoyable and relaxing. How are you doing? I'm doing well. Have a great day see you next video greetings from Canada 😀
Thanks Michelle. I'm good thanks. Off back to work on a script for a video due out in March now. Have a lovely day across the pond :-)
Thank you for this video! I always wondered if they were related! It’s interesting to find out Oliver was descended through Thomas’ sister! I think Thomas was the more famous because he worked for Henry Vlll and plotted Anne Boleyn’s downfall. Can’t wait to tune in next week!
Thanks Kimberley. I can't choose between them myself (curse of being a history nerd).
Perfect! I have often wondered how they were related.
I didn't know either for ages, but it's quite an interesting little story, what with the name change and the Golden Knight etc.
@@HistoryCalling I seem to remember that Thomas Cromwell had some nephews living with him at some point, but I don't think it was Williams b/c I think he was living with Henry Grey.
Interesting family tree! Love that kind of visual map! It makes it so much easier to understand the connection! My family's lineage is almost all from the British Isles. My father is an only son, and my brother is an only son. I only have one son, who also has an only son, so our male lineage is continued through them, even though they have my ex's last name. My brother has one daughter, so she is our direct line from him. She is married and uses her husband's last name, as does her only daughter. So, no more males from my immediate family with our last name. My paternal grandfather had brothers, so I know there are more probably out there somewhere, just not in my direct family line. Family lines are fun - I think that's part of the reason I enjoyed seeing the Cromwell tree so much!!
Hi Connie. I'm glad you like the family trees I do sometimes, as they take ages to put together :-)
Great job! Thanks!
Thanks Nathan. It's one of my shortest ones admittedly, but boy did I need a break after how long the previous two videos were. 😞
@@HistoryCalling your doing great
What an excellent question, so clearly and artfully answered mi'lady
3:19 I do believe that is Elizabeth Seymour- mainly because of the resemblance she (to me) bears to Jane Seymour
Yes, I can see that too. It's def. not Katherine Howard at any rate.
@@HistoryCalling yes- starting with the “21” years old ascribed to her. She does strike me as more pleasant looking than Jane though, but they are much alike in my eyes
Yes, poor Jane. Holbein really did her no favours. Not even a hint of a smile!
@@HistoryCalling I have Seymours in my family tree, and I believe we still look like them quite alot.. and this isn't a brag as Jane is very plain.. but that's what we look like in my family. Myself included. lol
@@HistoryCalling Given that Holbein was probably hoping to convey her appearance in the best possible light, it is astonishing, at least to the modern eye, that this was Jane at her best. Even disregarding what one makes of her physical attractiveness, she does not convey an attractive personality.
I think it’s fun to think of petty family revenge being Oliver cromwell’s main motivation.
My grandpa with his very Irish parents and grandfather would probably say that Oliver is the more INfamous lol 😂
Even though I mix these two men up all the time, it never occurred to me that they might be related! I’m going to put the blame on having a very common surname myself; I just assume it’s a coincidence when two people share a last name. Thanks for setting me straight! 😉 As always, I’m looking forward to your next video!
Don't worry about it. It was YEARS before I realised Jane Grey's husband Guildford Dudley was the brother of Elizabeth I's favourite Robert Dudley.
Hi, awesome live history video I enjoyed it. How are you doing. Im doing well and so is my cat. All your live history videos are always enjoyable have a great weekend see you next video 😊
Thanks Michelle. See you next time :-)
Nice to know, thank you 😊
As always, a great video and topic. I think Americans recognize Thomas because of the recent Tudor movies, specials, etc. I do remember studying Oliver in school. Each led complicated lives with unfortunate results. Thank you HC. Will be waiting for your next endeavor. ☺️
Weirdly we never looked at either Cromwell in school, but then again I'm from Northern Ireland and looking at any kind of local religious history or the English in Ireland has the potential to get messy. It's probably for the best that we skipped it.
@@HistoryCalling We are the same here, for all sorts of reasons. Talk about messy and we don’t have as many years behind us as y’all do!
The power of the monarchy was permanently weakened in England after the civil war, not sure that was unfortunate.
I learned in school about Oliver Cromwell, and when I heard about Thomas, I thought they might be related through children, or brothers or something. But I was sure there couldn't be just a name coincidence. It is a bit ironic come to think of it...
Yes, it is an unusual enough name to assume some sort of link, but honestly it was ages before I ever made the connection. I don't know how I missed it for so long.
Big fan of your excellent videos.
Oliver Cromwell defeated one of my relatives at the Battle of Dumbar, 1650. My Scottish relative was imprisoned and then sent by ship to Barbados and then Maryland as an indentured servant. He eventually prospered, was awarded land and was referred to as The Rock of Dumbarton for his military prowess. Saw his historic plaque in Georgetown. Ninian Beall
Great job with another fantastic video. This reminds me of A another story I heard; Abraham Lincoln's mother side last name Lee and some just assumed that she was related to Robert E Lee.
My American history is rather poor I'm afraid so I don't know anything about the Lees 😳
I think her ancestry is a bit fuzzy, but his mom's name was Nancy Hanks and sometimes Nancy Sparrow after her mom's marriage to a guy named Sparrow
@@HistoryCalling Robert E. Lee was the general who led the Confederate Army when the Southern States seceded from the Union and waged war against the rest of the United States (1860-1865). So militarily speaking, he was Abraham Lincoln's chief opponent.
Being from Virginia area and English, Lee will have significant noble, and almost for sure royals in his lines... as we all do who have links there. It may be pretty far back, but I'm almost positive it'd be found. Considering his leadership and military abilities, it's almost a guarantee it'll be there. Might be in the 1400's, but it'll be there.
I'm curious, as an American, where your accent hails from. It doesn't sound fully Scottish to my ear, so I was wondering if you're more northern English? Thank you for the lovely and concise video.
Nice one. It had occurred to me that they might possibly be related, but as an amateur genealogist I know that just because two people share the same surname, it doesn't guarantee that they are related -- particularly a "common" surname. So I may be a genealogy "bore," but I have the saving grace that I am also interested in other people's genealogy. I'm an avid watcher of the various "Who Do You Think You Are" programs -- British, Australian and American and I often don't know any of the people they're featuring. But one British program stuck out in my mind, that of the actor Danny Dyer, who seems to have developed an old-fashioned Cockney schtick. (His father father doesn't talk like that.) It was shown that Danny was directly related to Thomas Cromwell. Danny seemed genuinely moved by Cromwell's life and the description of his last desperate message to Henry of "Mercy...Mercy." I think both Cromwells have been vilified for different reasons, but both were very complex and contradictory individuals and I don't think you can force either of them into "villain" roles.
I love that show too, especially when they find out they have links to super famous history like that.
I knew Thomas and Oliver were distantly related through Thomas’s nephew Richard Williams who became Richard Cromwell. As for who is the most famous, I think it depends on which bits of history you’re interested in. I think if you’re interested in the Civil War etc you’d be more aware of Oliver Cromwell, but if you’re like me, interested predominantly in the Tudor period, Thomas Cromwell will be the one you’re more aware of. I think Thomas has enjoyed a bit of a revival over the last few years. I think the late Hilary Mantel’s wonderful Wolf Hall trilogy has made people think about Thomas as a person, as someone who was more than the ‘thug in a doublet’ image he occupied in popular opinion for so long. I think people have realised there was more to him than his part in the judicial murder of Anne Boleyn and the dissolution of the monasteries. I’ve also listened to the audiobook version of Diarmaid McCulloch’s wonderful biography of Thomas Cromwell and learned that the Wolf Hall idea of him wasn’t too far away from the truth, he was popular amongst ladies of a certain age because of his entertaining and he was very close to his family, so much so that the family didn’t enjoy being separated for any length of time. Yes, Thomas Cromwell was involved in some very bad things, but then again so were many others at the court of Henry VIII, they were cruel times. In comparison to the things I’ve learned about Thomas, I know very little about Oliver Cromwell. Perhaps he needs a TV drama to be made about him, just to bring him to people’s attention.
Very interesting, always wondered if they were related
TBF I did know of Thomas Cromwell being adopted his nephew before from reading Wolf Hall albeit I probably covered it for O level history but that was a long long time ago :D
Oliver Cromwell was voted one of the ten most famous/important Britons who ever lived, in a BBC TV programme about twenty years ago.
Thomas Cromwell was not in the top ten.
But they were very distantly related by marriage through Thomas’s sister, Kathryn. Indeed, Oliver’s paternal side used the surname ‘Williams alias Cromwell’, presumably as a tribute to Thomas, who had been executed after he fell out with Henry VIII.
So, to be correct, Oliver Cromwell, the great Protector, was in fact Oliver Williams alias Cromwell. Similarly his father was Robert Williams alias Cromwell and so on back to a great grandfather, Richard Williams. He was the Williams who married Kathryn the sister of Thomas Cromwell, the one who was executed by King Henry viii. 😵💫
So, he was a great great grandnephew or some such. Still related, even if not really by name. I confess, I have a soft spot for Oliver, who let the Jews return to England.
Thanks, this was interesting.
I think Oliver is always going to be the famous one.
He was financed by the British and let them back in England.
They came back with their entourages of loan collectors ("Aloysius Parkers") who were even less popular with the public.
Aemelia Vasano - the Greek woman who wrote - "the Merchant of Venice", is a perfect example of those British, to study.
Good evening history calling
Hi Bea. Hope you're in the mood for some Cromwell history :-)
My relative John Hutchinson’s signature is on Charles I death warrant
Now that's a good story for dinner parties.
When I hear the name Cromwell I think of the king killer, Oliver. My interest is Scottish history & especially the Stewarts before they inherited the English crown.
However I've always considered the possibility the two Cromwells were kin. I spent an unpleasant amount of time going down Cromwell rabbit holes & found NX. I foolishly never con sidered looking thru female relatives for the connection.
Thank you very much for this video.
I recall hearing years ago that Oliver was connected to Thomas by a female ancestor, but it did not register that this should have implied a change of name .
Thanks for spelling it out. I was correct in my view and you explained why he kept that infamous name
for my opinion of both if them is that I despise Thomas Cromwell
but i utterly loathe Oliver the tyrant, religious fanatic, genocidist, and, as i do take my theology very seriously, heretic.
I am no catholic but my detestation of puritanism is deep, and i believe serious and principled.
enough said
I'd heard that they were distantly related before I think Winston Churchill mentions it in the History of the English speaking people's?
Never seen the detail of it explained before so thank you.
On the question you ask that's a tricky one. The 'Republican experiment' disappeared with Oliver so quickly that I'm inclined toward Thomas because the move toward protestantism was more permanent. I wonder if that would have happened irrespective of Thomas Cromwell? My guess is probably. You could just as easily argue though that the Republican period is now seen (history is written by the winners) as so ghastly that it has strengthened the monarchy here?
Like I said that's a really tough question!
It is tough. I struggle to answer it myself and I think you raise some really good points about it.
Churchill is another surname swap isn’t it ? If I remember correctly the original Churchill line went extinct, the estates and such being inherited by the Spencers, a junior line of the Spencers eventually took the surname name Churchill in honour of their maternal ancestors.
I wonder. I do a lot of portrait drawings. When I saw the pictures of the two men side by side, I saw two very similar features. the shape of the mouth and the shape of the area above the eye and below the brow. It's the kind of thing I would have picked up on even were the topic not 'Are they related?'.
They both look very scowly (not an actual word, but hopefully you know what I mean) don't they? I can't imagine either of them laughing.
Apparently, Oliver Cromwell descended from the tudors. Owen Tudor had a mistress and his illegitimate child was Cromwell's ancestor.
This was after Queen Catherine's death.
Not the only famous Cromwell's. Thomas claimed to be a distant descendant of the medieval Lord Chancellor, Ralph Cromwell.
I think Ralph Cromwell died without children, so I think Thomas was indulging in some wishful thinking.
my favourite depiction of Thomas Cromwell is the bbc mini series “wolf hall” finally they are doing the next mini series leading up to his death “the mirror and the light”
Who was richer? Thomas I think?
I keep forgetting MPS back then where not common men (as they described it) they where gentlemen and members of the gentry
Yes, you can't beat Mark Rylance. Are they doing another series? I literally just told someone else in the comments that I didn't think we'd ever see it. Oops! I would say Thomas (at his peak) was the richer of the two, but it's admittedly just a guess. He was briefly Earl of Essex though and that suggests plenty of dosh.
@@HistoryCalling yes!! fair tho the bbc only announced it a few weeks back because the author who penned the book series which wolf hall is adapted from sadly passed and the bbc wanted to finish the series because of the HUGE! numbers of people streaming wolf hall and Mark Rylance was pestering the living hell out of them apparently lol.
It make sense to me that he would take the name Cromwell or Cramwell and pronounced in "Wolf Hall" (loved that line) If you would ever get the opportunity to do unto the crown as was done unto your family wouldn't you want the same name? Who is more popular? To me it depends on if you lean strongly on movies, TV ect or written history. I think movies and TV show the first one the most I have only seen one movie about Charles I and Cromwell where there are thousands of movies. If you go by written history they might come out equal.
That's a good point about Oliver not getting as much screen time. I wonder why that is actually. He's certainly a fascinating enough character.
I thought of that revenge theory too. An eye for an eye.
I haven’t watched this video yet but I always thought they were not related. Might have to do a Google search before I watch this lol
Excellent always wondered if we're related,,thanks ,,,,we're do I find out if there was a battle in st helens Merseyside I've been told Cromwell stay in a camp not far from me ❤❤
Have you ever considered a mystery video on what happened to Mary Boleyn after her second marriage, and what became of her two youngest children? It always baffles me how her children vanished from history and we know nothing of how the Queen’s sister lived after Anne’s execution
Apparently she had a son named Edward and a daughter named Anne with William Stafford, but no records of their lives exist
Good idea :-)
@@HistoryCalling thank you. After all, those children were cousins to Elizabeth the First
I suspect the information about Mary's final years and her Stafford children, if there were children, is so meager there isn't enough even enough with which to make a blog post. Mary was basically an unperson after her marriage to Stafford was revealed, and certainly even more so after the fall of her sister, so it's not particularly surprising there is very little in the record about her after her exile from court. Her children with Stafford, if there were any, may have died young and in any event, they languished in the same social obscurity as their parents. (Given Queen Elizabeth's quiet attachment to and promotion of her maternal relatives, the fact that no young Staffords were resuscitated probably means, to me, that either such children were already dead, or had never existed.)
@@edithengel2284 I do agree that there is very little I for,action, and given how little we know about Edward and Anne Stafford I assume they died in childhood. All we know for certain is that Mary was pregnant when she was banished from court
Thanks HC, great to watch this again for a second time.
Under the circumstances at the time Oliver Cromwell does sound better than Oliver Williams.
And thank you for taking the time to watch it here on the channel, complete with ad. I really wouldn't be offended if you didn't considering you've already got access to the ad-free Patreon version, but it's much appreciated.
It’s a delight to watch all your work, no matter how many times.
By the by (can’t miss out that one lol) what is your opinion on Elizabeth I’s treatment of the Grey sisters (specifically Katherine as I find her story more heartbreaking)
Hmm. She wasn't very kind to Katherine and yet at the same time, she didn't execute her in the way that Mary did Lady Jane. She could have been better, she could have been worse. She was in a tricky position given that Katherine was her legal heir and Katherine was pretty daft to marry and become pregnant without permission.
true… but Jane did pose a bigger threat to Mary than Katherine to Elizabeth- her council merely wanted her to name her her heir (damn it so many “her”s😭)
We could get so sidetracked here on the threat Jane did or didn't pose :-) She was imprisoned, she couldn't get pregnant and the second she died her claim passed to Katherine who was (at that time) free, so I don't see Jane as any particular threat to Mary at the time of her death. I think Mary's main concern was or ought to have been her actual heir, Elizabeth. Katherine on the other hand was Elizabeth's direct heir, she'd married and produced a boy and she was just one heartbeat away from the throne. I'm not surprised she made Elizabeth very uncomfortable. You can certainly argue this debate either way though, so I completely respect your assessment that Jane was more of a problem for Mary than Katherine was for Elizabeth.
@@HistoryCalling Yeah Ik😭 Gosh I hope I didn’t sound like I support Jane’s execution- far from it the poor girl was little more than a pawn and acting according to what she believed was right- honestly I wish Henry Grey would have stay out of rebellions- he had just been pardoned and Mary wished to pardon Jane too, WHY OH WHY did he rebel against Mary again? But yes, Elizabeth was, in any case, the biggest threat, and maybe it was sisterly love (if we can call it that, as Mary did like Elizabeth at first but after Henry’s death and specially after she was on the throne it al went downwards) that kept her from imprisoning Elizabeth for life or even beheading her. But truly that was a messed up family😭
@@HistoryCalling You have no idea how much I enjoy these history debates haha!
Richard Cromwell (neé Williams) was actually a cousin of Henry VIII through the Tudor line!
I feel like most of these people were related one way or the other
Really? I didn't know that. I wish I'd put it in the video now.
@@HistoryCalling yeah, the wolf hall series mentions it!
From what I've read there is no evidence for this. Cromwell was supposed to be descended from the illegitimate daughter, Joan, of Jasper Tudor Earl of Bedford, but there is nothing to prove this woman actually existed. If I remember correctly, the first historical mention of her was in the 19th c., centuries after Jasper Tudor's death.
@@edithengel2284 fair, just repeating what I read. Hilary Mantel’s works were fiction but generally historically accurate.
After which one, if either, is Cromwell Road in London named? It's about a 15-20 minute walk from Herrod's.
Someone else in the comments told me it was actually named after Richard Cromwell, Oliver's son. I don't know if that's true however.
If you haven't already, can you do Amy Robsarb?
I always assumed they were related as power broker families did run generations. but to hear oliver's mother's maiden name was 'stuart'? that's worth a chuckle f nothing else.
I was in class and while my teacher was teaching about Oliver Cromwell, I mentioned his relation to Thomas Cromwell.
I hope the teacher was impressed at your knowledge :-)
Williams is a relatively common name in Wales. Perhaps adopting a far less common name had the advantages of avoiding confusion with other Williamses and being more distinctive and memorable.
Hans Holbein was a genius painter and if you look at his portrait of Thomas it’s all too clear what he thought of him as a person! Vile man.
Some of those portraits of Thomas Cromwell remind me of James Gandolfini. Gandolfini could have played him if the opportunity arose. He would have done a good job.
This is something I’ve wondered so I was excited to watch this one. I certainly didn’t see that family link coming!
Is it known where the basis was for the accusation of Thomas Cromwell wanting to marry the princess Mary?
And to answer your own question, living in Worcester I’d probably say that Oliver Cromwell is far more infamous here.
I actually don't know much about that accusation, but I can't believe it had any truth to it.
@@HistoryCalling I'd be very surprised. I know we only really get one side to it, but it sounded like he was pretty much what we'd now recognise as a company man, doing whatever Henry asked, at whatever cost.
"To hell or to Connaught" is what I was brought up with. I always equated Oliver Cromwell with evil. His son was no better.
Difficult one. I think Thomas Cromwell rose from obscure beginnings to Chancellor. Before the office of prime minister was instituted the Chancellor was the pinnacle a commoner could attain. Indeed the office had been held by Archbishops and Cardinals as dual occupations as was Cromwell's predecessor Cardinal Wolsey as Archbishop of York.
The Chancellor was the person who made Parliament function being the go between for the monarch and parliament. The Tudor court under Henry VIII was a helter-skelter ride. With hard work, if you were useful to Henry you could rise substantially, conversely you may fall. Intrigue was all around you.
In the next century parliament had gained more power. This is before the Great Reform Act and rotten boroughs existed like Old Sarum, that is outside Salisbury. Huntingdon would represent basically gentleman-farmers. Womens suffrage was a long way off. Not far from London and as a Cambridge student Oliver's world would have been quite intense.
As a companion of Pym, Brereton etc " The birds have flown", the growing Arminianism would have been difficult for a budding puritan.
However it seems after the original capture of Charles I it seems Oliver was quite placatory but his fellow travellers less so.
He seems to have fallen out with the early Parliamentary leaders and was instrumental in the New Model Army which was quite decisive.
Looking back have either had a permanent mark on English history?
Not really. Royalty, with caveats, was restored.
I think Oliver Cromwell has made of a mark when you think of the number of people he caused to be killed and the destruction or selling off of the royal collection of art and jewels. It's tougher to judge Thomas. He didn't wield as much power as Oliver after all.
@@HistoryCalling Thomas spent a considerable time abroad before entering court circles.
As an aside the later beligerance founded the "flintlock" which transformed robbery for the next hundred annals because it introduced the "highwayman" to the English countryside.
Are you from Northern Ireland? :-)
American here. Very familiar with the name Oliver Cromwell, but while you mentioned Oliver Cromwell as being reviled, you didn't really touch on what he is mostly reviled for, (at least over here), which is his slaughter of Catholics. I'm of half-Irish descent, by the way.
There is a captured Crimean War canon in front of Ely Cathedral. Is was gifted to or by Queen Victoria. It points directly at Oliver Cromwell's house which was the Tourist Information Office when I was last there.
Surnames are not as fixed and unchangeable as you suggest. In fact, they were only introduced by William the Conqueror for taxation puposes. Therefore, even in those times a man could have many sons all of which would adopt a surname from the estates that they acquired, not from their father.
Thomas is Oliver’s 2nd great-granduncle.
Please do this for Lady Jane Grey and Sir Edward Grey (and Earl Grey of Reform Bill fame). I can’t find the answer and so guess maybe not but then again the aristocracy is a small place to have multiple disconnected Greys?
its a pity Oliver Cromwell isn't around today.
Im probably a minority here, but Oliver Cromwell is a kind of unsung hero, he killed a king yes, a bad King wee , just a silly king who didnt need to die, but chose to, by saying he was chosen by god and would not take that back there is a statue of Oliver cromwell outside parliment it is a warning to all Kings and Queens as we say. Dont push your monarch powers, I am not religious or over political, i preferred Thomas fairfax, founder of the new model army abd did not want the death of a king, great videos and content.
Ah, a controversial opinion. I'll give the other side of this argument for fairness - is it really ok to kill someone just cause they're quite bad at their job and very stubborn, even in the 17th century? They had him in custody after all and the second he died his claim to throne immediately passed to his son, who was free and living in mainland Europe.
@@HistoryCalling i think all opinions are fair on this matter, True fact but somewhat Ironic, Oliver Cromwell was known for his love of practical jokes.
Was it necessary to kill him? It did them no particular good that couldn't have been accomplished by locking him up in theTower. His sons were still alive and well.
Furthermore, any man whose regime could be responsible for the ill treatment and casual negligence of a young girl, the Princess Elizabeth, is not worthy to be a hero, sung or unsung.
It is simply a convention that women change their names on marriage, and that children take their father’s surname. In fact under the common laws person’s name is simply the name by which they are commonly known. Thus there is nothing dubious about Oliver Cromwell using the name Cromwell, particularly as it was his family’s surname for 4 generations.
The problem is that the conventions of surnames are so strong many people believe they have the force of law behind them.
I just thought Richard's parents died and he was adopted under Thomas Cromwell by joining his household? Isn't this normal in adoption historically in England?