I mean, I don't even consider emulation and piracy to be in the same discussion. Emulation involves replicating hardware that's entirely off the market outside of resellers. Piracy is literally just any piece of software obtained without paying for it.
I think that emulators are “legal” because they don’t take the console manufacturer’s source code to make the emulator and that’s why some consoles are so hard to emulate like N64
And that’s why emulators are fine but the roms are a problem. No one cares about telling you where to get emulators from but won’t say a thing about roms (although it is easy to find them online) 😂
So, to the best of my understanding, and if I'm wrong someone please tell me so I know, emulators are legal because they are specifically emulating hardware, which is not copyrighted, it is patented. When you patent something, the scope is more limited to the design, the schematic, not the logic it is meant to accomplish, although I do believe that does factor in a little. As he said, the bios is intellectual property, so it is illegal to copy, but the hardware emulation itself is not. Although, that being the case, I imagine it then shares the same loophole of, if you own the device, you can then dump the bios, though only for personal use. I believe the patent restriction used to be even less strict, and that's how the nes used a specific chip it needed, they copied a chip they weren't supposed to and just cut a trace to a component they didn't need that was defined as a core feature in the patent and that's how they got away with it.
If you could copyright a circuit the world would seize to function. Even Sony, during that case 23 years ago, knew that and thusly focused more on the BIOS, which is copyrightable software, and less on the emulator which basically just mimics a couple chips and how they're connected. However the BIOS which Connectix distributed was developed by themselves and care was taken to make it different enough in case Sony would sue. Contrary to what is said in this video, computers were not in their infancy, but in their forties. In case it's still not clear enough, like it was for the hosts, imagine a company made a console decades ago and now any other company that wanted to make a console would have to pay them whatever they demanded if they let them in the first place which they probably would not to keep their monopoly (there is no special sauce in these boxes, they are computers like they have been around for half a century). Or they could completely reinvent gaming consoles by making them run on yogurt or something. It's bad enough with games already. Look up why so few games ever let you play minigames during those insanely long loading screens.
I absolutely love this episode I think it’s been my favorite so far. It’s awesome to see inside of everyone’s mind and hear their viewpoints. Also, my stance on a VR headset is it doesn’t matter how good it looks if it’s not comfortable to wear especially if the audio is bad as well, have a happy Thursday everyone.
I would say that if you're thinking about getting a headset, see if there's any way you can try one on before you buy one. Because it's different for everyone. For me, the PSVR 2 is super comfy. And the Quest 2 was extremely painful 🤷♂️
I’ve 32 and gaming has been my passion since I was like 6. Eventually I ended up working at GameStop for about 2 years and suddenly my passion for gaming dropped big time. Any game we sold there I was able to take home free of charge and play. That sounds great and all but it eventually grew old and I never got excited for new games to come out cause I could just play it for free. Now that I quit and actually have to buy the games, my passion has came back. It kinda sucks that getting free games anytime you want could be a bad thing lol. On another note, if I wanna play Pokémon Emerald, im not going out getting a used copy for $90+. That’s crazy. And even if I did, Nintendo wouldn’t get a dime for it cause it’s a used game. I say Emulate your hearts out.
Honestly, as strange as it is, I recommend reproduction carts for stuff like Pokémon. Just make sure it’s advertised as a reproduction copy and not overcharging for what it really is. I’ve never tried an Everdrive or anything, so I can’t speak to that, but I got all the GBA Pokémon games repros and they work great with stuff like XD and Colosseum. Running these games off reproduction carts and USBLoaderGX gives me an authentic enough feel.
Yea first buy console that isnt on market and buy game that isnt on market. Or download simulator and play anything you want, more so if you want to play some nuzlock pokemon mods.
So you’re telling me your enjoyment and passion for gaming is dependent on giving your money to massive corporations? Lmao I didn’t know a subjective opinion could be objectively so wrong. Buying, or pirating the game, has literally no impact on my love, or lack thereof, for a game.
The problem I've always had with the "legality" of piracy is that we as the customer aren't allowed to buy said products anymore; or at least not at a reasonable price. These days we have digital distribution, but that has a caveat of licenses, ownerships, and monthly fees. Even if that wasn't a problem, then we still have resales, re-releases, remaster, and remakes. All "justified" to pay full price for an old product again. Even back when the virtual console was still around, some "classics" still felt overpriced because it was deemed a "classic". Of course then there's resales of older products on Ebay. Collectors editions in sealed packages is one thing, but paying almost full price for a decade old game (take your pick) that is "used", can be a bit much at times. How much should a customer pay for an old game?
Given it's a victimless crime, 0. You should pay zero and pirate the game if your only option for getting the game is to enrich some stranger that had nothing to do with making the game.
People moving on to something else? You wouldn't use your grandmothers old and busted washing machine because you are too lazy to buy your own. And then complain you can get no more spare parts for that dang thing. Right?
@@niemand7811 I don't think a piece of media that has impacted people on an emotional level is equivalent to some old washing machine. Not a fair comparison.
1:25:27 That "some guy" was Randy Linden, a veritable programming god, and the emulator was called "Bleem!". He also single-handedly basically rewrote all of Doom so it could run on the SNES. Man is a legend.
@@stanzacosmi Indeed! Though a slight correction. It was Sony vs Connectix (makers of the Virtual Game Station PS1 emulator) that solidified emulation as perfectly legal. Sony vs Bleem! mainly only made it legal for them to use PS1 screenshots on their box art and promo material.
So, as someone who switches between watching the podcast and listening to it on the Apple podcast app, my biggest issue with the ads is that it’s like ads you would hear on commercial radio, but one or two of them repeated multiple times per episode.
I feel like Scoots review of the Mario Land comes from the view of a super fan of both theme parks and Nintendo so his expectations were a lot higher than most. Interesting to hear considering most people won’t notice the small details.
Honestly, there just isn't much to do there. There really only is like one real ride even if it is pretty darn cool, I think I enjoyed it more than Scoots since I was competing with 3 friends and that was pretty fun. If you buy the bracelet you can do some more activities, but they're mostly not that great either. So it really is just a small place you will mostly just walk around in (while surrounded by tons of other people of course). The food was cute and tasted pretty good for a theme park, at least in Japan.
I loved how people compared Pokémon Scarlet/Violet on emulation versus the Nintendo release. I am always PRO playing the official games no matter the source over emulation. But I’m some cases, in the past to experience unobtainable games, emulation allowed me to play said games such as region locked or foreign games.
I love these guys not only are they funny and a joy to watch individually but watching you guys together is priceless. Love the content keep pumping this stuff out please.
Currently I draw the download line at indie devs, and things that come out on the current generation of systems. 3DS and older are fair game. If I have to pay marked up collector cost to play, I will download.
This is exactly why companies want to go all subscription, cloud, streaming and DRM based gaming, so they can take away customer ownership and bot have to worry about these legal Grey areas. It is a bit extreme and I think there are better ways to combat piracy (such as making all games tied to your account purchase history, foward compatible and have performance boosts, when played on newer hardware. The idea that maybe Switch 2 will be backwards compatible, stopped any thought I had from modding mine, as I don't want my eshop account banned). Sadly, most consumers aren't aware of the differences between DRM, streaming or or don't care and they rather subscribe to everything. Such a shame.
@@levant5378 outside a handful of games does anyone actually pay that much anymore? I’m just not hardcore anymore like I was back when. And the switch is all I need, but I haven’t paid more than $30 (AUD) a game. Everything is always on special, and actually I’m not that big on Nintendo IP.
Saying that the people who pirate the most movies also buy the most is totally true for gaming. I pirate loads of games on my modded consoles, but buy everything on steam when it's on sale I've added 250 games to my steam library since November
Honestly, if they just made older games available to buy or access old purchases on current systems, most gamers would just buy them and play them on the current systems. Piracy is an issue of availability and always will be.
When Wood is describing that the PSVR2 is uncomfy it literally sounds like another of those situations just like 'omg, my PS5 doesn't reads disks!!!" type of situation. I didn't tried it myself, but I am 75% sure he's wearing the headset incorrectly.
If publishers sold legal ROMS, I would buy a ton of them. Since most studios seemingly have no interest in preservation, I'll keep on emulating. No way I'm paying some idiot on Ebay $500 for an old PS2 game that the studio makes no money from
Last time I researched this I found that emulation varies from country to country. For instance in some countries (maybe including the USA, but things might have changed) it's legal to download games as long as you can prove you own a physical copy. And other countries like Australia you can only rip the rom from physical copies and you have to have a receipt of purchase to prove you own the game
In America it has never been legal to download games off of the internet. even if you own them. Its technically legal though case law to make back ups of your physical games to digital should you not sell your physical copy. But there has been case law against devices like disc copiers for the snes and n64 that would circumvent the systems security. Though there have been no recent cases agents the use of copying systems in the modern era That I am aware of. There is also no dedicated manufacturer of said devices and they always come and go. None of them ever stick around. The closest example of a lawsuit I can remember was a set of chips for the switch that where marketed and made to make piracy possible. Nintendo was able to argue that they where selling devices for piracy. As far as i know other chips that where similar are not able to or haven't been targeted as they are for modding of the system as a whole. Time will tell and I'm no lawyer so those could be sued into the ground possibly... Nintendo is taking no chances this time.
I never felt dirty about downloading roms. For one thing, I started with arcade roms in the late 90s. You couldn't buy anything for that back then, or if you could, it wasn't emulation, so it wasn't as close to the real thing. These days I buy emulation collections, particularly the ones that have extra content like the Atari 50th anniversary collection. I still play Atari games from my rom collection.
Back in thw 90's, most of PSOne games available here in the Philippines are bootlegs. But that gave us a change to play tons of games from Playstation, and fast forward when us kids now have buying power, majority of us now choose to buy games legally. Mainly because it's now more available in retail. But also because we were able to enjoy playing games then, it develops us to continue playing games today
When you talk about games that you just can’t get anymore due to licensing issues or companies dissolving, I always think of Simpsons Hit & Run. I swear that has been emulated so many times, but if a straight port of the original dropped on the console stores tomorrow so many people would buy it. I think that is an issue with a lot of games based on TV shows and movies though, sadly. So many hoops to jump through!
I feel the same about digital games and roms. I find emulating games isn’t as satisfying for some reason. I still do it for games I can’t find for a fair price (most recently pikmin) and sometimes finish them. But going ti the store and coming home with a physical cartridge or disk gets me way more on board to play and finish a game. Even digital games don’t go quite as hard. I think it’s probably due to nostalgia but I don’t know.
I think the issue with the podcast ads is that they happen mid sentence. Other podcasts will have them in between segments. Like you do with your sponsor reads.
I think if you look back at IBM compatible computers like HP back in the day. They basically were emulating ibm computers but the engineered/reverse engineered the compatibility without looking at the original hardware. That is what made it legal. Same with emulators, if you can build it without looking at the source code you can build it legally.
Alot of android phones probably do beat out the switch in power but the issue is phones have to be so damn thin that if you did try to run Skyrim or something on it it would overheat instantly
Emulating switch games which you own on PC is very logical. Nintendo not being known for pushing performance to it's limits makes for a well. Limiting enjoyment of certain games. Just being able to play BoTW at 1440p 60hz with a nice third party controller is just so much more pleasing, along with some mod tweaks to improve the graphical fidelity.
I buy 95% of my games used anyway, so the devs, producers, etc don't get money off of that, and I feel the same way about roms/iso's etc, the main companies weren't going to get my money in the first place
I used to listen to this podcast via Google podcasts but there were inserted ads that broke up the flow. However I have RUclips Premium so all the ads are taken out on RUclips. I wish more of my podcasts had RUclips versions as I like the ad reads for the stuff you guys use rather than random ads unassociated with the show.
I think companies are pretty lax about it because they realized that the emulation community is doing their R&D for them. I doubt it's coincidence we see certain re-releases or remakes. They probably see the progress of emulation and what's possible and they can see what games are popular by searches. I mean Retro Arch is out there and available on many platforms, it's not like a big underground secret or anything.
You know how when you watch friends that you learn to ignore the laugh track and just enjoy the show? A very nice skill to have. Apparently the original scooby doo had laugh tracks too!
My approach is to only emulate either a.) Games I own elsewhere, or b.) Games that are out of print or incredibly difficult to acquire second hand. Metroid Fusion was only available for direct purchase on GBA for a long time, which was strewn with counterfeits or unreal prices on Ebay. I got a counterfeit Zero Mission before I even tried. It was also on an extremely time limited 3ds program and the Wii U, a system that was also out of print and expensive second hand when I wanted to play Fusion. Recently it's now offered via a subscription fee on Switch, which given how long this game has existed- is incredibly anti-consumer as the only modern option to play it. I emulate Metroid Fusion and it's entirely because Nintendo has made it incredibly difficult to own a legitimate copy of it. If they slapped a reasonably priced Metroid Fusion on 3DS, Switch, Mobile, even dare I say- PC, I would have purchased it and still will in a heartbeat.
Thank you for talking about this! We just purchased a few gems on the Nintendo eShop for 3DS since the shop will be closing. But of course, our beautiful, high tech el gato capture card won't work with the 3DS so it's more challenging to justify from a content perspective. The simplest option truly seems to be emulation.
It's unambiguously legal to hack your 3ds, move the games you legitimately acquired from there into emulators, and then play from there. Y'all don't have to worry about that. The issue there is actually at a development end. 3DS emulation has one of the worst "maturity-to-tech-intensity" ratios, with a lot of pretty common games having major compatibility issues.
I NEVER listen or watch podcasts, there was one a few years back that I liked and your guy's work is the only other thing I've been interested in. I look forward to your chats every week!
A lot of people think that because something's illegal makes it wrong, but a lot of copy-write laws are just overreaching to the point where it's anti consumer.
I would have to say, based on someone who went within the first 2 weeks of opening of Mario World, it is a 4/ 10. To get into Toads Cafe, it requires a reservation. Now that reservation does not mean you can go in and eat, it just means you get to stand in line to enter Toads Cafe. There were people who had been in line, over a hour and a half before we were, an we were not even close to the main doors to enter. There was no other food, or drinks (until a random beverage cart showed up, after 3 hours) and the rides/ events were very simplistic.
From my layman’s experience and understanding: I think you guys are getting into a discussion of software copywriter law and patenting. With software there is always multiple ways to do the same thing, which is why there is a concept of making games more or less “optimized” for different systems. It has to do with the software code. If your product is a combo of hardware and software and they read and write from a piece of media you can develop another piece of software that can read and write with that media. You’re not steeling their method, but you’re a competitor to the original. But there’s also an artistic component and publishing component to it (it being the game/media) but the hardware doesn’t really have any other considerations. With hardware you could attempt to get a patent, but it needs to do something unique. Computers that play games exist in many forms so you would have a hard time showing that your hardware should be treated special. There are several different levels of patents that have different levels of protections.
Bleem is even funnier because there was a thing being sold called Bleemcast that were basically Ps1 games running on the Dreamcast. I remember those discs being sold in stores.
I love emulation so much. Any conversation about all that nitty gritty morality fascinates me. Im like Bob. I just don't care anymore. But i still love the debate.
small correction: the developer in the sony case was NOT distributing the playstation BIOS file, that would still be illegal! the developer put the BIOS on his computer, and he used that BIOS to help him write *his own version* of the playstation BIOS, which, crucially, did not contain any of their code. so he wasn't violating any copyright laws, he was not distributing anything that he didn't create, everything was his own creation. sony was mad because he was competing against them from within their own ecosystem. basically he took away their monopoly over the ability to run playstation games, but he did it without sharing anything that sony had written.
My thoughts is if they originally sold a game to be played (example Pokémon soul silver), and then they make it so you can’t buy it anymore. Well…I haven’t played it and since it’s not avaible to buy it’s fine, I think it’s scummy that they’ll resell an already perfect game years later at full price. But if a game for example Pokémon sword, that can be bought should not be allowed to be emulated since you CAN get it and it’s available.
Completely agree this is actually something that Nintendo agrees on aswell as they basically dont care about pirating older games that arent available on the switch
17:35 BLEEM the PlayStation emulator was legal because it did not use the original bios from sony. They created their own bios, thus it was not using their copyrighted material.
1:01:25 there is a techchannel called Bright here in the Netherlands and one of the hosts also tested the Playstation VR2 and he also really liked it exept the price.
I feel you guys on not beating games that you play as roms. But there's one thing that worked for me to make me actually beat the games and that's RetroAchievements. Those make me excited to fully play the game and see what achievements pop
The reason it's not illegal to emulate games on your computer with an emulator is because there are monopoly and competitive marketplace laws that restrict businesses from running a monopoly on either the console market or the game market. Think Bubsy and Sega. Bubsy made games for older Sega consoles, and then Sega made license verification code. Following that the Bubsy team took the code licensed games have and put them in their games. Sega then sued and won a copyright infringement case. Then Bubsy filed an appeal, and won as they ruled Sega was attempting to create a monopoly in the gaming market. Allowing people to emulate games at home legally encourages companies to improve their consoles to give a proper incentive to go with them opposed to pc. Emulating games themselves for personal use is legal as long as you aren't distributing it, and even if you are whether or not you're making a profit also has a say in the legality of it. US law mainly discourages selling roms for a profit, as that is then a violation of copyright law. Emulating games for personal use doesn't violate copyright law because copyright law ONLY applies to the distribution of a product, mainly for a profit. The morality of it is another argument altogether. Games inaccessible any other way I'd say is a grey area otherwise it's morally wrong unless you have the game and just want to play it on different hardware. As long as you bought it you can legally do whatever you want with it for personal use
I see it the same way. If there is a game I never heard of,maybe because at the time I was too ignorant or didn't even know it exists, I am not entitled to download it now through illegal means.
@@niemand7811 right. Many People only think of themselves. They don’t even consider how it impacts others. Like the people who made the game. And video game companies remake old games all the time. All that is cash flow to support the families of employees who made the game.
Its because its inconsequential in the case were its not available as arguably no one wins if no one pirates in those circumstances. The question I ask is: Why let old games be forgotten? If someone is interested, enjoying the game and its no longer sold anymore in anyway that supports the developers then I don't see why I personally, or really anyone else should care if someone else choose to pirate that game. (Keep in mind Im talking specifically about pirating games that are no longer sold not pirating games that are still available to easily purchase.)
Anything that uses copy-written code is illegal. So downloading a downloaded bios that is not dumped from your own console is illegal to have, custom firmware which is streamed into an iso or rom with copy-written code, backward engineered code (can be represented in a court of law as unlawful but it depends on the law of the land), downloading roms which you have not purchased a license to own that copy of the rom (yes, even if you own the game, the downloaded rom is an instance of a rom that requires a locense to legally own) are illegal unless dumped from your own games for backup purposes...it is a very nuanced issue.
Emulation is perfectly legal in Japan. There is no scenario where somebody will be taken to court for using an emulator with their own copy of a game (original or backup). That would be roughly equivalent to taking somebody to court for copying a CD to a tape and listening that way. Japan has similar laws to the US regarding backups, generally-speaking: as long as you don't have to circumvent any DRM measures you're OK to make a copy of something. Also technically, it's not illegal to mod consoles. It's illegal to OFFER MODDING SERVICES. That's still an overreach IMO, because it effectively outlaws the sales of mods and whatnot - but still - nobody's going to get arrested for adding HDMI to their own NES or replacing the GD-ROM in their Dreamcast with a GD-ROM emulator, or modifying their console to allow dumping games (assuming you don't also have to bypass DRM somehow).
Bleem is original code derived. It is legal. It was on PC, Dreamcast. The bios is copywritten and cannot be redistributed legally. But can be used if it is dumped from your own console. A bios can be emulated using your own codebase as an HLE, a high level emulation program.
My rule on morality is if the company no longer supports the console, I have no qualms with emulating it. The day, the eshop shut down, I modded my 3DS, but I don’t intend on doing this for the switch for years to come.
I knew this guy once that always downloaded movies and when I asked why he just said, "They make too much money anyways." Morality is what you make it I guess.
I don't know if you guys ever get around to this, but the reason Bleem was determined to be legal was because it was a case of reverse-engineering, which is protected in the US. I'm pretty sure all emulators refrain from using anything that would put them outside of that legal protection.
I emulate on my steam deck. I’ve spent thousands of dollars on the physical copies. Nintendo came out with the perfect portable console and then wasted its backwards compatible potential. So I fixed that for myself.
I totally have the same mindset and I am adding one more reason. I was a Kid and Student when I downloaded some of the games, because money was limited. And by now I have bought most of those games from back then, some multiple times. If I don't own it by now, it's either not available or wasn't very good and I didn't really play it back then anyways So about copyright. Maybe not completely applicable in the US (though I think it is), but the functionality of Software can never be copyrightable and that is exactly why Emulators are not illegal. Now what IS illegal is stealing the design (as in the Look and Feel not Software Design Patterns), which is why emulators do not look like the actual console. Also what is illegal is outright stealing the source-code and just copying it. But re-implementing the complete functionality in your version is legal. The reason is if you COULD copyright interfaces and functionality, where would it stop? You could lock out other people to create their own thing by trying to copyright basic concepts that are needed to make that stuff happen and there's only so many ways to do certain things. The same applies to API's as well. If you are adhering to best practices (which many don't anyways lol) then of course source code will be similar. Now good luck implementing the whole thing on your own and kudos to those who managed to do it, because it is the real challenge. As for FPGA it's actually not a grey area, at least for the Analogue Pocket and similar consoles, because the corresponding Hardware Patents have simply run out. Nintendo had 25+ years to make money out of it and now everybody can make one on their own. Now the designs are still protected, that's why the consoles will look different, the controllers will be different, but the Hardware design itself can be the same.
I'm from Argentina and as a third world country we have a really tight relationship with emulators. In the 80s we didn't have official NES but arrived many chinese copycats called "the Family" (for famicom) and all those cartridges "a 100 in 1". Then in 90s and early 2000s with a crashed economy emulators on pc became a real big thing and many my age got to play that way SNES, GB and GBA games (we are really big pokemon fans). For a counterexample, PlayStation is HUGE in Argentina and nobody really trusts Nintendo because in the 2000's you could buy burned cheap PS games but Nintendo was HUGHLY expensive so very few got a N64 or Gamecube.
What if the game is kinda new, there are still rightholders and the game is avaliable second hand exept for one platform?? The first game that comes to mind for me is Driver: San Francisco (PC) you can't get that anywhere digitally and if you'll get it physical you probably can't play it because you probably don't have a disc drive
Bro, with Quest 2, you need to use "Sidequest" and make sure you turn the resolution higher, every time you turn the console On. It was pretty quick when I used to use it... Watch some videos of how to... I can't use it in default, it is so blurry But you can choose from like 3 or 4 higher resolutions and it is a game changer
I ain't buying no damn Switch just to play a few games that's stuck on that system. I will happily emulate those few games on my Steam Deck. If I could buy the games and play them on there I would, or if I was gifted a Switch or they lower the price of the Switch to like $100. I will play Metroid and Bayonetta on my Deck
I know a million people I've already said this but for me it's simple. If the company isn't making money on the game anymore then it's okay to emulate. So in the case of Sonic Advance, buying a physical copy of that isn't making money for the company anymore that money is not going to the company at all, and that's the only way to play it but the company isn't making money off of it so I'd much rather just stimulated emulated then give all my money to some random dude on eBay
@@mitchellgoldstein1573 That dose not happen. At worse you ISP would just write a letter to you saying to stop. The police is not going to waste their time going after some random dude who pirated Super Mario World.
15:00 Emulators are legal because they are reversed engineered. It's not stolen code. Emulators become illegal if they use files from a leak for example. So it's not a copy of intellectual property.
Technically speaking, DMCA 17 U.S. Code § 1201 makes it illegal to circumvent any copy protection. So even if you own a game, it's technically illegal to circumvent that protection to rip it for your own purposes. This also applies to ripping tracks off music CDs, or bypassing protections to watch a DVD that you own on your own computer. I should clarify, it isn't illegal for YOU to circumvent copy protection on your own media yourself, but it IS illegal for someone to provide you with the TOOLS that allow you to circumvent copy protection. In the end though, it all boils down to enforcement, of which there really isn't any. An unenforceable law is no law at all.
Emulation itself is legal and that has kind of been run into the dirt. Sony vs BLEEM was one example. Nintendo also tried to take down an emulator or two and lost as well though I can't remember which ones.
For me if the console still alive and supported by the developer is illegal but for RIP console is fine to emulate it because it's hard to find nowadays you don't have any choice regarding that matter. ( No offenses here just my personal opinion)
Table of Contents 1. Morality 2. Games stuck on dead or different consoles 3. Collections and Their Value 4. The Potential of Indie Games on Android When people bring up the "Morality" of emulation they never seem to bring up the "Morality" of the Companies. Even if it is still in the Companies rights to delist a game from one console or to delist a single game so that you're forced to buy it in a overpriced collection (Sonic Origins) These Companies should be called out more for they're anti-consumer practices. And I wouldn't judge someone for pirating Sonic 3 and Knuckles if they are being forced to buy Sonic Origins when it's not faithful to the original even in "Classic Mode" It's just the remastered version just worse and with lives. And honestly in my opinion with indie games. If you own the game you should still be able to access it and play it even if it's on one of your dead consoles (But with indies you should support them. They don't make as much as AAA Games where the name of a game would be enough to sell it alone, Please choose to buy the copy of the game to support the indie deves out there. I know I felt kind of bad downloading Shovel Knight for Android but I already owned it for Wii U, 3DS and Switch but I brought a Amazon Gift Card and it wouldn't accept it so I downloaded the APK and I lost the Amazon Card wasting $50 So I guess karma made me pay for it lol True Story.) As for AAA Games like Mario. if I own Mario Odyssey and I want to play it on PC for more convince then I will. if Nintendo won't give me a choice then I will make my own. There's also a issue of pirating games that are in a recent collection. Like with MegaMan X Legacy Collection, It's not just some roms stuck together. It's a good collection with artwork and extra, music tracks and other stuff to make it Worth Buying. but if it was just a couple of roms stuck together in a plain and bland menu without any other real extras like Super Mario 3D All-Stars (I would of let Super Mario 3D All-Stars off the hook but with Nintendo taking down Mario Music from TY, I'd say it's not worth anything if you're taking away the ability of your fans to listen to music and putting it behind a limited time paywall) So if you don't put any extra's in your collection. if People already have the roms and the Companies can't do much more then put then on a Menu and call it a day. You're collection isn't worth much. Shows some Artwork. Put some Music in there. ANYTHING! If people love your game they'd want to know anything about it. Even interviews with the developers and staff behind it. Also gaming on your phones is getting A LOT more popular. so people would want to play the games that they love on the go. If they already have a Modded Switch they can dump it. but if you don't own a unpatched switch well that won't stop people from trying to play games on they're phones. But the solution isn't to try and stop piracy and emulators on Android. It's to bring more games over to Android and IOS Officially. Like Dead Cells is on the Google Play Store. It's just there nice and accessible. Unlike Shovel Knight that you'd have to use Amazon and Download the APK and Sideload it or Celeste. I lOVE Celeste but it's sad that people can't buy or play the game if they don't have a pc or a gaming console and it's sad knowing that Celeste isn't even available for android since I KNOW that People would love these games on Android and IOU and would pay Money to have them on the go. Just look at the Switch. if you could buy all the same indie games on Android or IOS through the App Store and Google Play then the Switch would actually have some competition. Phones aren't weak anymore and they can play some pretty demanding games. It's just that developers and just people in general need to see mobile gaming as the accessible gaming market that it is and give it a chance and how it can cater even more to casual gamers if you put in more recognizable indie games and make them accessible and easy to buy. The reason Mobile Ports didn't work in the past was because of weaker phones but it wasn't mostly weak phones, it was lazy AAA Developers pushing out shotty ports of games without worrying how well they run or how they were optimized. (Megman X Mobile and Megaman 2 come to mind) and just remind people that Mobile Phone Controllers exist. Like the BackBone or just use a Controller you already have like a Switch or Xbox Controller (Though PLAYSTATION and XBOX have already partnered up and made controllers for Android that makes your phone look Basically like a Switch) or give people a choice if they want to use touch screen controls or if they already have a controller then let them control it that way. Anyway this is just my little thoughts about it. I really hope people read this. I spent like 2 Hours typing this lol.
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My bar of morality: If the company that owns it makes it reasonably available, I won't pirate, if they don't...yo ho ho and a bottle a rum
The high seas call when availability falls.
Steam making games conveniently available, piracy goes down.
Epic takes that stuff away from us, piracy goes up.
That’s what I never understood about Nintendo. Why be so strict with piracy on games that aren’t even available
They need to
Add backwards compatibility to switch for wiii and Wii U games and other virtual consoles games
I mean, I don't even consider emulation and piracy to be in the same discussion. Emulation involves replicating hardware that's entirely off the market outside of resellers. Piracy is literally just any piece of software obtained without paying for it.
This was the moment I realized how lucky I was to own all three Sonic Advance games and that maybe I should go find them and put them someplace safe😅
I have been selling my CIB GBA games, first thing I bought was a MiSTer FPGA.
@@Jokerwolf666good for you buddy.
You definitely shouldn't dump the ROM's and email them to multiple archival sites in Minecraft.
you need to rip them and store them on your PC. As long as you never get rid of the game carts you'll never get in trouble. Atleast you shouldn't.
I can’t wait to watch the next Nontendo Podcast from Wood and Bob’s jail cell next week lol.
hahahhaha
Hahahahaha! Good one
With all that long hair they'd both be really popular.
@@JetsetStealth that soft face of yours would probably have the same effect 🥺
@@Ramiryoooooooooo 🤫
I think that emulators are “legal” because they don’t take the console manufacturer’s source code to make the emulator and that’s why some consoles are so hard to emulate like N64
Yeah, MIPS systems are very hard to emulate: see also anything using blender 1.0
And that’s why emulators are fine but the roms are a problem. No one cares about telling you where to get emulators from but won’t say a thing about roms (although it is easy to find them online) 😂
So, to the best of my understanding, and if I'm wrong someone please tell me so I know, emulators are legal because they are specifically emulating hardware, which is not copyrighted, it is patented. When you patent something, the scope is more limited to the design, the schematic, not the logic it is meant to accomplish, although I do believe that does factor in a little. As he said, the bios is intellectual property, so it is illegal to copy, but the hardware emulation itself is not. Although, that being the case, I imagine it then shares the same loophole of, if you own the device, you can then dump the bios, though only for personal use. I believe the patent restriction used to be even less strict, and that's how the nes used a specific chip it needed, they copied a chip they weren't supposed to and just cut a trace to a component they didn't need that was defined as a core feature in the patent and that's how they got away with it.
If you could copyright a circuit the world would seize to function. Even Sony, during that case 23 years ago, knew that and thusly focused more on the BIOS, which is copyrightable software, and less on the emulator which basically just mimics a couple chips and how they're connected. However the BIOS which Connectix distributed was developed by themselves and care was taken to make it different enough in case Sony would sue.
Contrary to what is said in this video, computers were not in their infancy, but in their forties.
In case it's still not clear enough, like it was for the hosts, imagine a company made a console decades ago and now any other company that wanted to make a console would have to pay them whatever they demanded if they let them in the first place which they probably would not to keep their monopoly (there is no special sauce in these boxes, they are computers like they have been around for half a century). Or they could completely reinvent gaming consoles by making them run on yogurt or something.
It's bad enough with games already. Look up why so few games ever let you play minigames during those insanely long loading screens.
@@DerRabenbarde that patent has expired, now, but idk if anyone's going to make anything of it.
27:10 “finders keepers as America says” was such an under appreciated joke 😂 laughed out loud on that one.
i just got that 😂
I absolutely love this episode I think it’s been my favorite so far. It’s awesome to see inside of everyone’s mind and hear their viewpoints. Also, my stance on a VR headset is it doesn’t matter how good it looks if it’s not comfortable to wear especially if the audio is bad as well, have a happy Thursday everyone.
I would say that if you're thinking about getting a headset, see if there's any way you can try one on before you buy one. Because it's different for everyone. For me, the PSVR 2 is super comfy. And the Quest 2 was extremely painful 🤷♂️
@@luftcorde ive only tried on a quest 2 so icant saY XD
My uncle that works at nintendo says yes.
Great reference
totes bro
My aunt that also works at Nintendo says your uncle smells funny.
My dog who is a lawyer says no
My uncle works at Microsoft & says *NO*
the comments on the psvr videos yall uploaded seems pretty consistent, I don’t see the sudden change in notion mentioned.
I’ve 32 and gaming has been my passion since I was like 6. Eventually I ended up working at GameStop for about 2 years and suddenly my passion for gaming dropped big time. Any game we sold there I was able to take home free of charge and play. That sounds great and all but it eventually grew old and I never got excited for new games to come out cause I could just play it for free. Now that I quit and actually have to buy the games, my passion has came back. It kinda sucks that getting free games anytime you want could be a bad thing lol.
On another note, if I wanna play Pokémon Emerald, im not going out getting a used copy for $90+. That’s crazy. And even if I did, Nintendo wouldn’t get a dime for it cause it’s a used game. I say Emulate your hearts out.
I sold Leaf Green CIB mint for like 250CAD lol.
Honestly, as strange as it is, I recommend reproduction carts for stuff like Pokémon. Just make sure it’s advertised as a reproduction copy and not overcharging for what it really is. I’ve never tried an Everdrive or anything, so I can’t speak to that, but I got all the GBA Pokémon games repros and they work great with stuff like XD and Colosseum.
Running these games off reproduction carts and USBLoaderGX gives me an authentic enough feel.
Yea first buy console that isnt on market and buy game that isnt on market. Or download simulator and play anything you want, more so if you want to play some nuzlock pokemon mods.
Woww I wanna work in GameStop!!
So you’re telling me your enjoyment and passion for gaming is dependent on giving your money to massive corporations? Lmao I didn’t know a subjective opinion could be objectively so wrong. Buying, or pirating the game, has literally no impact on my love, or lack thereof, for a game.
The problem I've always had with the "legality" of piracy is that we as the customer aren't allowed to buy said products anymore; or at least not at a reasonable price.
These days we have digital distribution, but that has a caveat of licenses, ownerships, and monthly fees. Even if that wasn't a problem, then we still have resales, re-releases, remaster, and remakes. All "justified" to pay full price for an old product again. Even back when the virtual console was still around, some "classics" still felt overpriced because it was deemed a "classic".
Of course then there's resales of older products on Ebay. Collectors editions in sealed packages is one thing, but paying almost full price for a decade old game (take your pick) that is "used", can be a bit much at times. How much should a customer pay for an old game?
Given it's a victimless crime, 0. You should pay zero and pirate the game if your only option for getting the game is to enrich some stranger that had nothing to do with making the game.
They closed the eShop and now physical 3DS games are becoming ridiculously expensive. What do they think would be the natural consequence of that?
People moving on to something else? You wouldn't use your grandmothers old and busted washing machine because you are too lazy to buy your own. And then complain you can get no more spare parts for that dang thing. Right?
@@niemand7811But if people made spare parts for that old washing machine, why would anyone have a problem with it? I am for emulation
@@niemand7811 I don't think a piece of media that has impacted people on an emotional level is equivalent to some old washing machine. Not a fair comparison.
1:25:27 That "some guy" was Randy Linden, a veritable programming god, and the emulator was called "Bleem!". He also single-handedly basically rewrote all of Doom so it could run on the SNES. Man is a legend.
wait. BLEEM guy was the doom SNES guy? Wow, that's genuinely really neat.
@@stanzacosmi Indeed! Though a slight correction. It was Sony vs Connectix (makers of the Virtual Game Station PS1 emulator) that solidified emulation as perfectly legal. Sony vs Bleem! mainly only made it legal for them to use PS1 screenshots on their box art and promo material.
@@The8bitbeard I knew about that, I was referring to the developer specifically.
oh wow. I used Bleem a couple times, funny seeing it mentioned in a comment
This ep is in the top 5 best so far. Good jumping around, hot takes, jokes
Gabe Newell said in an interview. “Piracy is an issue of service, not price”
🤓
So, as someone who switches between watching the podcast and listening to it on the Apple podcast app, my biggest issue with the ads is that it’s like ads you would hear on commercial radio, but one or two of them repeated multiple times per episode.
I feel like Scoots review of the Mario Land comes from the view of a super fan of both theme parks and Nintendo so his expectations were a lot higher than most. Interesting to hear considering most people won’t notice the small details.
Honestly, there just isn't much to do there. There really only is like one real ride even if it is pretty darn cool, I think I enjoyed it more than Scoots since I was competing with 3 friends and that was pretty fun. If you buy the bracelet you can do some more activities, but they're mostly not that great either. So it really is just a small place you will mostly just walk around in (while surrounded by tons of other people of course). The food was cute and tasted pretty good for a theme park, at least in Japan.
I loved how people compared Pokémon Scarlet/Violet on emulation versus the Nintendo release. I am always PRO playing the official games no matter the source over emulation. But I’m some cases, in the past to experience unobtainable games, emulation allowed me to play said games such as region locked or foreign games.
I love these guys not only are they funny and a joy to watch individually but watching you guys together is priceless. Love the content keep pumping this stuff out please.
This was my favorite episode so far! Bob’s passion was fantastic. Wood did not care 😢
Kim and Hannah look so bored in the corner, lol. The boys nerding out about stuff and the girls have checked out mentally.
haha 100% they are questioning their life decisions
lol yeah. See her in that one bit? lol
Currently I draw the download line at indie devs, and things that come out on the current generation of systems. 3DS and older are fair game.
If I have to pay marked up collector cost to play, I will download.
This is exactly why companies want to go all subscription, cloud, streaming and DRM based gaming, so they can take away customer ownership and bot have to worry about these legal Grey areas. It is a bit extreme and I think there are better ways to combat piracy (such as making all games tied to your account purchase history, foward compatible and have performance boosts, when played on newer hardware. The idea that maybe Switch 2 will be backwards compatible, stopped any thought I had from modding mine, as I don't want my eshop account banned). Sadly, most consumers aren't aware of the differences between DRM, streaming or or don't care and they rather subscribe to everything. Such a shame.
Don't worry, consumers aren't brain dead, once we lose ownership then we won't pay $70 a game. (In general).
@@levant5378 outside a handful of games does anyone actually pay that much anymore? I’m just not hardcore anymore like I was back when. And the switch is all I need, but I haven’t paid more than $30 (AUD) a game. Everything is always on special, and actually I’m not that big on Nintendo IP.
They ban the Switch, not the account... don't ask me how I know...
Saying that the people who pirate the most movies also buy the most is totally true for gaming. I pirate loads of games on my modded consoles, but buy everything on steam when it's on sale I've added 250 games to my steam library since November
Honestly, if they just made older games available to buy or access old purchases on current systems, most gamers would just buy them and play them on the current systems. Piracy is an issue of availability and always will be.
When Wood is describing that the PSVR2 is uncomfy it literally sounds like another of those situations just like 'omg, my PS5 doesn't reads disks!!!" type of situation. I didn't tried it myself, but I am 75% sure he's wearing the headset incorrectly.
"the law can't change because they already did a court case on it"
Roe v Wade would like to have a word
If publishers sold legal ROMS, I would buy a ton of them. Since most studios seemingly have no interest in preservation, I'll keep on emulating. No way I'm paying some idiot on Ebay $500 for an old PS2 game that the studio makes no money from
Last time I researched this I found that emulation varies from country to country. For instance in some countries (maybe including the USA, but things might have changed) it's legal to download games as long as you can prove you own a physical copy. And other countries like Australia you can only rip the rom from physical copies and you have to have a receipt of purchase to prove you own the game
In America it has never been legal to download games off of the internet. even if you own them. Its technically legal though case law to make back ups of your physical games to digital should you not sell your physical copy. But there has been case law against devices like disc copiers for the snes and n64 that would circumvent the systems security.
Though there have been no recent cases agents the use of copying systems in the modern era That I am aware of. There is also no dedicated manufacturer of said devices and they always come and go. None of them ever stick around. The closest example of a lawsuit I can remember was a set of chips for the switch that where marketed and made to make piracy possible. Nintendo was able to argue that they where selling devices for piracy. As far as i know other chips that where similar are not able to or haven't been targeted as they are for modding of the system as a whole. Time will tell and I'm no lawyer so those could be sued into the ground possibly... Nintendo is taking no chances this time.
I never felt dirty about downloading roms. For one thing, I started with arcade roms in the late 90s. You couldn't buy anything for that back then, or if you could, it wasn't emulation, so it wasn't as close to the real thing. These days I buy emulation collections, particularly the ones that have extra content like the Atari 50th anniversary collection. I still play Atari games from my rom collection.
Back in thw 90's, most of PSOne games available here in the Philippines are bootlegs. But that gave us a change to play tons of games from Playstation, and fast forward when us kids now have buying power, majority of us now choose to buy games legally. Mainly because it's now more available in retail. But also because we were able to enjoy playing games then, it develops us to continue playing games today
Hour and 25 minutes well spent. Thank you gents.
When you talk about games that you just can’t get anymore due to licensing issues or companies dissolving, I always think of Simpsons Hit & Run. I swear that has been emulated so many times, but if a straight port of the original dropped on the console stores tomorrow so many people would buy it. I think that is an issue with a lot of games based on TV shows and movies though, sadly. So many hoops to jump through!
I feel the same about digital games and roms. I find emulating games isn’t as satisfying for some reason. I still do it for games I can’t find for a fair price (most recently pikmin) and sometimes finish them. But going ti the store and coming home with a physical cartridge or disk gets me way more on board to play and finish a game. Even digital games don’t go quite as hard. I think it’s probably due to nostalgia but I don’t know.
I think the issue with the podcast ads is that they happen mid sentence. Other podcasts will have them in between segments. Like you do with your sponsor reads.
Skoot's breakdown of the super mario land is incredible
I have never thought about it but I have the same disconnected feeling when I am playing ROMs. It just isn't the same.
I think if you look back at IBM compatible computers like HP back in the day. They basically were emulating ibm computers but the engineered/reverse engineered the compatibility without looking at the original hardware. That is what made it legal. Same with emulators, if you can build it without looking at the source code you can build it legally.
Alot of android phones probably do beat out the switch in power but the issue is phones have to be so damn thin that if you did try to run Skyrim or something on it it would overheat instantly
Emulating switch games which you own on PC is very logical. Nintendo not being known for pushing performance to it's limits makes for a well. Limiting enjoyment of certain games.
Just being able to play BoTW at 1440p 60hz with a nice third party controller is just so much more pleasing, along with some mod tweaks to improve the graphical fidelity.
Wife walked in on my listening to this and asked if y'all were married
They would make a beautiful, chaotic, fascinating couple.
I buy 95% of my games used anyway, so the devs, producers, etc don't get money off of that, and I feel the same way about roms/iso's etc, the main companies weren't going to get my money in the first place
I used to listen to this podcast via Google podcasts but there were inserted ads that broke up the flow. However I have RUclips Premium so all the ads are taken out on RUclips. I wish more of my podcasts had RUclips versions as I like the ad reads for the stuff you guys use rather than random ads unassociated with the show.
Wulff: Makes an intelligent, poignant point
Wood: I can't go five 5 minutes without talking about myself, so let's talk about me more
It's what has made him so hard to watch for me
Personally when I watch it I just see two friends (plus the rest of the group) having fun & talking about gaming
Well Nintendo isn’t putting the games we want in a subscription based service similar to game pass 🤷♂️ so what alternative is there?
Not play them Nintendo is under no obligation to cater to yours or everyone’s needs.
In this economy, I would download a car.
I think companies are pretty lax about it because they realized that the emulation community is doing their R&D for them. I doubt it's coincidence we see certain re-releases or remakes. They probably see the progress of emulation and what's possible and they can see what games are popular by searches. I mean Retro Arch is out there and available on many platforms, it's not like a big underground secret or anything.
That reminds me Capcom using MAME for their Arcade collection
You know how when you watch friends that you learn to ignore the laugh track and just enjoy the show? A very nice skill to have. Apparently the original scooby doo had laugh tracks too!
Lol Scooby doo had laugh tracks? That's crazy
I'd say if you own the original or the game yes you can emulate.
My approach is to only emulate either a.) Games I own elsewhere, or b.) Games that are out of print or incredibly difficult to acquire second hand.
Metroid Fusion was only available for direct purchase on GBA for a long time, which was strewn with counterfeits or unreal prices on Ebay. I got a counterfeit Zero Mission before I even tried. It was also on an extremely time limited 3ds program and the Wii U, a system that was also out of print and expensive second hand when I wanted to play Fusion. Recently it's now offered via a subscription fee on Switch, which given how long this game has existed- is incredibly anti-consumer as the only modern option to play it.
I emulate Metroid Fusion and it's entirely because Nintendo has made it incredibly difficult to own a legitimate copy of it. If they slapped a reasonably priced Metroid Fusion on 3DS, Switch, Mobile, even dare I say- PC, I would have purchased it and still will in a heartbeat.
In Portugal it's not illegal to download, but illegal to keep uplodad/keep seeding xD
Thank you for talking about this! We just purchased a few gems on the Nintendo eShop for 3DS since the shop will be closing. But of course, our beautiful, high tech el gato capture card won't work with the 3DS so it's more challenging to justify from a content perspective. The simplest option truly seems to be emulation.
It's unambiguously legal to hack your 3ds, move the games you legitimately acquired from there into emulators, and then play from there. Y'all don't have to worry about that.
The issue there is actually at a development end. 3DS emulation has one of the worst "maturity-to-tech-intensity" ratios, with a lot of pretty common games having major compatibility issues.
I NEVER listen or watch podcasts, there was one a few years back that I liked and your guy's work is the only other thing I've been interested in. I look forward to your chats every week!
A lot of people think that because something's illegal makes it wrong, but a lot of copy-write laws are just overreaching to the point where it's anti consumer.
Yeah thats true. Unfortunately copyright laws are very outdated.
I would have to say, based on someone who went within the first 2 weeks of opening of Mario World, it is a 4/ 10. To get into Toads Cafe, it requires a reservation. Now that reservation does not mean you can go in and eat, it just means you get to stand in line to enter Toads Cafe. There were people who had been in line, over a hour and a half before we were, an we were not even close to the main doors to enter. There was no other food, or drinks (until a random beverage cart showed up, after 3 hours) and the rides/ events were very simplistic.
In the middle of the talk about ads, there was an ad. 🤣🤣🤣
I thought Wood said the movie "Soar" and I'm like what? Took me a second to get to "Saw" 😂
From my layman’s experience and understanding: I think you guys are getting into a discussion of software copywriter law and patenting. With software there is always multiple ways to do the same thing, which is why there is a concept of making games more or less “optimized” for different systems. It has to do with the software code. If your product is a combo of hardware and software and they read and write from a piece of media you can develop another piece of software that can read and write with that media. You’re not steeling their method, but you’re a competitor to the original. But there’s also an artistic component and publishing component to it (it being the game/media) but the hardware doesn’t really have any other considerations. With hardware you could attempt to get a patent, but it needs to do something unique. Computers that play games exist in many forms so you would have a hard time showing that your hardware should be treated special. There are several different levels of patents that have different levels of protections.
I feel you im not attached to my roms i just mess around with them
HOW LONG HAVE I BEEN UNAWARE OF THIS CHANNEL OML Content
Atomiswave GDI files are currently being made playable on Dreamcast emulators. Those games would be lost to time if not.
Bleem is even funnier because there was a thing being sold called Bleemcast that were basically Ps1 games running on the Dreamcast. I remember those discs being sold in stores.
My dad used to rent redbox and Netflix DVDs and he would burn them and return them. I think at most he had a whole dvd case of like 1200 dvds 😂😂
I recently got into this on my steam deck and nobody will Stop me! They need to put out the games again they don’t want to put in the work
I love emulation so much. Any conversation about all that nitty gritty morality fascinates me. Im like Bob. I just don't care anymore. But i still love the debate.
small correction: the developer in the sony case was NOT distributing the playstation BIOS file, that would still be illegal!
the developer put the BIOS on his computer, and he used that BIOS to help him write *his own version* of the playstation BIOS, which, crucially, did not contain any of their code.
so he wasn't violating any copyright laws, he was not distributing anything that he didn't create, everything was his own creation.
sony was mad because he was competing against them from within their own ecosystem. basically he took away their monopoly over the ability to run playstation games, but he did it without sharing anything that sony had written.
My thoughts is if they originally sold a game to be played (example Pokémon soul silver), and then they make it so you can’t buy it anymore. Well…I haven’t played it and since it’s not avaible to buy it’s fine, I think it’s scummy that they’ll resell an already perfect game years later at full price. But if a game for example Pokémon sword, that can be bought should not be allowed to be emulated since you CAN get it and it’s available.
playing soul silver rn on a 3ds cia haha
Completely agree this is actually something that Nintendo agrees on aswell as they basically dont care about pirating older games that arent available on the switch
17:35 BLEEM the PlayStation emulator was legal because it did not use the original bios from sony. They created their own bios, thus it was not using their copyrighted material.
1:01:25 there is a techchannel called Bright here in the Netherlands and one of the hosts also tested the Playstation VR2 and he also really liked it exept the price.
Idk if anyone has said it but the game at 56:00 is called Wreckfest ;)
I feel you guys on not beating games that you play as roms. But there's one thing that worked for me to make me actually beat the games and that's RetroAchievements. Those make me excited to fully play the game and see what achievements pop
Nintendo Theme Park being all about Mario is like someone saying they're a Final Fantasy fan but only played FF7 XD
Oh man I would really love to see you guys have a guest that understands nintendos point of view to join in on this conversation!
The reason it's not illegal to emulate games on your computer with an emulator is because there are monopoly and competitive marketplace laws that restrict businesses from running a monopoly on either the console market or the game market. Think Bubsy and Sega. Bubsy made games for older Sega consoles, and then Sega made license verification code. Following that the Bubsy team took the code licensed games have and put them in their games. Sega then sued and won a copyright infringement case. Then Bubsy filed an appeal, and won as they ruled Sega was attempting to create a monopoly in the gaming market. Allowing people to emulate games at home legally encourages companies to improve their consoles to give a proper incentive to go with them opposed to pc. Emulating games themselves for personal use is legal as long as you aren't distributing it, and even if you are whether or not you're making a profit also has a say in the legality of it. US law mainly discourages selling roms for a profit, as that is then a violation of copyright law. Emulating games for personal use doesn't violate copyright law because copyright law ONLY applies to the distribution of a product, mainly for a profit. The morality of it is another argument altogether. Games inaccessible any other way I'd say is a grey area otherwise it's morally wrong unless you have the game and just want to play it on different hardware. As long as you bought it you can legally do whatever you want with it for personal use
The sense of entitlement is amazing. How are you entitled to download a rom just because it’s not available
I see it the same way. If there is a game I never heard of,maybe because at the time I was too ignorant or didn't even know it exists, I am not entitled to download it now through illegal means.
@@niemand7811 right. Many People only think of themselves. They don’t even consider how it impacts others. Like the people who made the game. And video game companies remake old games all the time. All that is cash flow to support the families of employees who made the game.
Its because its inconsequential in the case were its not available as arguably no one wins if no one pirates in those circumstances. The question I ask is: Why let old games be forgotten? If someone is interested, enjoying the game and its no longer sold anymore in anyway that supports the developers then I don't see why I personally, or really anyone else should care if someone else choose to pirate that game. (Keep in mind Im talking specifically about pirating games that are no longer sold not pirating games that are still available to easily purchase.)
Anything that uses copy-written code is illegal. So downloading a downloaded bios that is not dumped from your own console is illegal to have, custom firmware which is streamed into an iso or rom with copy-written code, backward engineered code (can be represented in a court of law as unlawful but it depends on the law of the land), downloading roms which you have not purchased a license to own that copy of the rom (yes, even if you own the game, the downloaded rom is an instance of a rom that requires a locense to legally own) are illegal unless dumped from your own games for backup purposes...it is a very nuanced issue.
This podcast just keeps getting better and better.
Emulation is perfectly legal in Japan. There is no scenario where somebody will be taken to court for using an emulator with their own copy of a game (original or backup). That would be roughly equivalent to taking somebody to court for copying a CD to a tape and listening that way.
Japan has similar laws to the US regarding backups, generally-speaking: as long as you don't have to circumvent any DRM measures you're OK to make a copy of something.
Also technically, it's not illegal to mod consoles. It's illegal to OFFER MODDING SERVICES. That's still an overreach IMO, because it effectively outlaws the sales of mods and whatnot - but still - nobody's going to get arrested for adding HDMI to their own NES or replacing the GD-ROM in their Dreamcast with a GD-ROM emulator, or modifying their console to allow dumping games (assuming you don't also have to bypass DRM somehow).
Bleem is original code derived. It is legal. It was on PC, Dreamcast. The bios is copywritten and cannot be redistributed legally. But can be used if it is dumped from your own console. A bios can be emulated using your own codebase as an HLE, a high level emulation program.
My rule on morality is if the company no longer supports the console, I have no qualms with emulating it. The day, the eshop shut down, I modded my 3DS, but I don’t intend on doing this for the switch for years to come.
I knew this guy once that always downloaded movies and when I asked why he just said, "They make too much money anyways." Morality is what you make it I guess.
That’s so funny Bob brings up downloading Sonic 3 and knuckles, right as Sega announce it’s coming to sonic origins lol
Isn’t it already in sonic origins though?
@@ThePhil-Osopher I believe Sonic 3 is. But the update is adding Sonic 3 and Knuckles. Or possibly just Sonic and Knuckles. One of those lol
Sonic origins doesnt have the original music
@@nontendopodcast very true. I forgot about that completely.
Oh man! I remember using Bleem! It was for PC and Dreamcast.
I don't know if you guys ever get around to this, but the reason Bleem was determined to be legal was because it was a case of reverse-engineering, which is protected in the US. I'm pretty sure all emulators refrain from using anything that would put them outside of that legal protection.
I emulate on my steam deck. I’ve spent thousands of dollars on the physical copies. Nintendo came out with the perfect portable console and then wasted its backwards compatible potential. So I fixed that for myself.
I totally have the same mindset and I am adding one more reason. I was a Kid and Student when I downloaded some of the games, because money was limited. And by now I have bought most of those games from back then, some multiple times. If I don't own it by now, it's either not available or wasn't very good and I didn't really play it back then anyways
So about copyright. Maybe not completely applicable in the US (though I think it is), but the functionality of Software can never be copyrightable and that is exactly why Emulators are not illegal.
Now what IS illegal is stealing the design (as in the Look and Feel not Software Design Patterns), which is why emulators do not look like the actual console. Also what is illegal is outright stealing the source-code and just copying it. But re-implementing the complete functionality in your version is legal. The reason is if you COULD copyright interfaces and functionality, where would it stop?
You could lock out other people to create their own thing by trying to copyright basic concepts that are needed to make that stuff happen and there's only so many ways to do certain things. The same applies to API's as well. If you are adhering to best practices (which many don't anyways lol) then of course source code will be similar.
Now good luck implementing the whole thing on your own and kudos to those who managed to do it, because it is the real challenge.
As for FPGA it's actually not a grey area, at least for the Analogue Pocket and similar consoles, because the corresponding Hardware Patents have simply run out. Nintendo had 25+ years to make money out of it and now everybody can make one on their own. Now the designs are still protected, that's why the consoles will look different, the controllers will be different, but the Hardware design itself can be the same.
Is anyone else distracted by the Mario figure dead under Woods chair?😂❤
if you emulate and download games you don't own then technically that would be illegal by definition I believe.
Hannah’s posture in that chair is on point 37:26
The two women near the door look super bored.
I'm from Argentina and as a third world country we have a really tight relationship with emulators. In the 80s we didn't have official NES but arrived many chinese copycats called "the Family" (for famicom) and all those cartridges "a 100 in 1". Then in 90s and early 2000s with a crashed economy emulators on pc became a real big thing and many my age got to play that way SNES, GB and GBA games (we are really big pokemon fans). For a counterexample, PlayStation is HUGE in Argentina and nobody really trusts Nintendo because in the 2000's you could buy burned cheap PS games but Nintendo was HUGHLY expensive so very few got a N64 or Gamecube.
A comment i was looking for, things are different on third world where the price is not located and this is if we have a official sell
What if the game is kinda new, there are still rightholders and the game is avaliable second hand exept for one platform??
The first game that comes to mind for me is Driver: San Francisco (PC) you can't get that anywhere digitally and if you'll get it physical you probably can't play it because you probably don't have a disc drive
Bro, with Quest 2, you need to use "Sidequest" and make sure you turn the resolution higher, every time you turn the console On.
It was pretty quick when I used to use it... Watch some videos of how to... I can't use it in default, it is so blurry
But you can choose from like 3 or 4 higher resolutions and it is a game changer
Quest 2 is waaay better, look at true VR RUclips channel reviews
And Quest 3 is coming soon, with Amazing AR
The sad thing I missed eshop being open because I forgot to transfer from pokemon platinum to pokemon scarlet now 😢
I ain't buying no damn Switch just to play a few games that's stuck on that system. I will happily emulate those few games on my Steam Deck. If I could buy the games and play them on there I would, or if I was gifted a Switch or they lower the price of the Switch to like $100. I will play Metroid and Bayonetta on my Deck
I know a million people I've already said this but for me it's simple. If the company isn't making money on the game anymore then it's okay to emulate. So in the case of Sonic Advance, buying a physical copy of that isn't making money for the company anymore that money is not going to the company at all, and that's the only way to play it but the company isn't making money off of it so I'd much rather just stimulated emulated then give all my money to some random dude on eBay
downloading a game you don't own can get you arrested, you're not the smartest cookie, your isp can track your IP and you'll get a knock on your door
@@mitchellgoldstein1573 That dose not happen. At worse you ISP would just write a letter to you saying to stop. The police is not going to waste their time going after some random dude who pirated Super Mario World.
15:00 Emulators are legal because they are reversed engineered. It's not stolen code. Emulators become illegal if they use files from a leak for example. So it's not a copy of intellectual property.
Technically speaking, DMCA 17 U.S. Code § 1201 makes it illegal to circumvent any copy protection. So even if you own a game, it's technically illegal to circumvent that protection to rip it for your own purposes. This also applies to ripping tracks off music CDs, or bypassing protections to watch a DVD that you own on your own computer.
I should clarify, it isn't illegal for YOU to circumvent copy protection on your own media yourself, but it IS illegal for someone to provide you with the TOOLS that allow you to circumvent copy protection.
In the end though, it all boils down to enforcement, of which there really isn't any. An unenforceable law is no law at all.
Emulation itself is legal and that has kind of been run into the dirt. Sony vs BLEEM was one example. Nintendo also tried to take down an emulator or two and lost as well though I can't remember which ones.
For me if the console still alive and supported by the developer is illegal but for RIP console is fine to emulate it because it's hard to find nowadays you don't have any choice regarding that matter. ( No offenses here just my personal opinion)
Table of Contents
1. Morality
2. Games stuck on dead or different consoles
3. Collections and Their Value
4. The Potential of Indie Games on Android
When people bring up the "Morality" of emulation they never seem to bring up the "Morality" of the Companies. Even if it is still in the Companies rights to delist a game from one console or to delist a single game so that you're forced to buy it in a overpriced collection (Sonic Origins) These Companies should be called out more for they're anti-consumer practices. And I wouldn't judge someone for pirating Sonic 3 and Knuckles if they are being forced to buy Sonic Origins when it's not faithful to the original even in "Classic Mode" It's just the remastered version just worse and with lives.
And honestly in my opinion with indie games. If you own the game you should still be able to access it and play it even if it's on one of your dead consoles (But with indies you should support them. They don't make as much as AAA Games where the name of a game would be enough to sell it alone, Please choose to buy the copy of the game to support the indie deves out there. I know I felt kind of bad downloading Shovel Knight for Android but I already owned it for Wii U, 3DS and Switch but I brought a Amazon Gift Card and it wouldn't accept it so I downloaded the APK and I lost the Amazon Card wasting $50 So I guess karma made me pay for it lol True Story.) As for AAA Games like Mario. if I own Mario Odyssey and I want to play it on PC for more convince then I will. if Nintendo won't give me a choice then I will make my own.
There's also a issue of pirating games that are in a recent collection. Like with MegaMan X Legacy Collection, It's not just some roms stuck together. It's a good collection with artwork and extra, music tracks and other stuff to make it Worth Buying. but if it was just a couple of roms stuck together in a plain and bland menu without any other real extras like Super Mario 3D All-Stars (I would of let Super Mario 3D All-Stars off the hook but with Nintendo taking down Mario Music from TY, I'd say it's not worth anything if you're taking away the ability of your fans to listen to music and putting it behind a limited time paywall) So if you don't put any extra's in your collection. if People already have the roms and the Companies can't do much more then put then on a Menu and call it a day. You're collection isn't worth much. Shows some Artwork. Put some Music in there. ANYTHING! If people love your game they'd want to know anything about it. Even interviews with the developers and staff behind it.
Also gaming on your phones is getting A LOT more popular. so people would want to play the games that they love on the go. If they already have a Modded Switch they can dump it. but if you don't own a unpatched switch well that won't stop people from trying to play games on they're phones. But the solution isn't to try and stop piracy and emulators on Android. It's to bring more games over to Android and IOS Officially. Like Dead Cells is on the Google Play Store. It's just there nice and accessible. Unlike Shovel Knight that you'd have to use Amazon and Download the APK and Sideload it or Celeste. I lOVE Celeste but it's sad that people can't buy or play the game if they don't have a pc or a gaming console and it's sad knowing that Celeste isn't even available for android since I KNOW that People would love these games on Android and IOU and would pay Money to have them on the go. Just look at the Switch. if you could buy all the same indie games on Android or IOS through the App Store and Google Play then the Switch would actually have some competition. Phones aren't weak anymore and they can play some pretty demanding games. It's just that developers and just people in general need to see mobile gaming as the accessible gaming market that it is and give it a chance and how it can cater even more to casual gamers if you put in more recognizable indie games and make them accessible and easy to buy. The reason Mobile Ports didn't work in the past was because of weaker phones but it wasn't mostly weak phones, it was lazy AAA Developers pushing out shotty ports of games without worrying how well they run or how they were optimized. (Megman X Mobile and Megaman 2 come to mind) and just remind people that Mobile Phone Controllers exist. Like the BackBone or just use a Controller you already have like a Switch or Xbox Controller (Though PLAYSTATION and XBOX have already partnered up and made controllers for Android that makes your phone look Basically like a Switch) or give people a choice if they want to use touch screen controls or if they already have a controller then let them control it that way.
Anyway this is just my little thoughts about it. I really hope people read this. I spent like 2 Hours typing this lol.
Emulation usage for 3DS and Wii U will grow starting March 27th. ;)