The wonderful common sense approach is brilliant, far to many youtube videos are picky as hell just to justify the video. Yes, I've seen loads of 'questionable' electrics, some sloppy some justifiable, due to existing or physical issues. Informative and helpful
Thank you for this Mark, I enjoyed it. I think you did well and it is a nice looking install as usual. It has been widely promoted over the years, even the NICEIC pointed out a year ago not to put anything in a meter cupboard as it is not allowed and if the DNO felt as such, contractors could be told to remove the equipment at their expense. it was an eye opener to me to read in last month's IET piece on outdoor consumer units, they actually quoted the Energy Networks Association as it only being a recommendation. Having said that, it was also mentioned that individual DNOs might have their own rules, which seems daft to me. You seem okay with your DNO that came to pull the fuse and put it back seeing the before and after without complaint.
That was a timely little video. I got a request from an EV newbie about to take delivery what to do about installing a charger. They won't understand much but they'll get an idea about pitfalls and tricky decisions about locating a unit. They may be lucky with an easy install or may need a good sparks to be inventive to solve any impediments. I noticed your name check of Artisan and Cory so I reckon that's a good recommendation. 😉
I enjoyed the video and it is good to be made aware of all the options out there and the high standards you should expect from the installer. But the title through me as my EV charger is installed in my garage and I was wondering what the issue might be, but at least it made me watch till the end 🤣😂
Don’t these house builders want to even pretend the houses they build are EV ready? UK is stuck in the dark ages, why isn’t a new development 3 phase. I think you did a great job provisioning for future battery and or solar.
As of June 2022, new buildings in Great Britain are required to have electric car charging points according to the Part S Building Regs - both for residential and commercial properties. The legal requirement also extends to major renovations of buildings with ten parking spaces. So why are so many new builds not doing them? If the plans for the building were drawn up before June 2022 then they can get away with not installing them.
Had to do something very similar for our EV install in detached garage in a new build, involved digging up some patio to run new cable as the existing garage sub-board only has a 16A fuse for lights and sockets. Until the Gov regulates on this, lazy/cost-cutting developers will not change their ways
We did think of a hockey stick however with every action comes a reaction. CCC being the case on that. That said more changes are coming around this during the solar phase of work 😉
Commendable that you have shared this. Shame on Efixx for suggestions they stopped this single handed. Nothing at all related towards selling outdoor consumer units.
Prefer to keep it on the topic my friend. What others do is outside my control. I'm trying to avoid calling out specific brands, energy retailers and content creators in the hope the core problem can be solved. Surely that's more important than who is right or wrong or who sells what.
It's an interesting point about the DNOs and ENA. Not all are aligned and tbh they have bigger fish to fry. So it's up to building regs, property owners, developers and electricians to sort out what is currently absolute nonsense. Simply shouldn't be a thing imho. We had a 300 home estate a few years ago corrected and I am inclined to go down that road again here.
@8:56. If you don't use the old garage supply as a part of the solar install it may come in useful under a vehicle to load situation with a couple of dedicated sockets in the house to use if there is a power outage.
It's ridiculous that new build homes are still being thrown up with 2.5mm feeds to detached garages. I've had to do the same thing myself in the same way. The EV and PV markets are screwed though - too many fly-by-night installers doing the Octopiss method of stapling stuff to the wall in a way that might well work, for now, but is ugly, nasty and will cause homeowners problems in the future. The trouble is, every EV owner thinks they're an electrical expert and their forums/videos are full of comments on how chargepoints should be cheap and easy to fit with any spark charging more than a hundred quid over the price of a Zappi being a con man.
The cult of EV has brewed up elements of society that are frankly horrid. EV experts being one of those. It's like we spend decades training to understand how to do our jobs. But Brian from IT has it sussed after registering in the Facebook home automation group and unless we are prepared to agree with him we are out to rip him off 🤣. Thankfully some see the value like this awesome customer did.
The builders I work for, I make them put two external meter boxes in, one for the metering and one for my equipment, obviously that wouldn't occur to a national house builder but that's what they should be doing, you get a jobs worth from a DNO and that equipment may have to come out.
Tbf the DNOs are fine it's metering companies that cause a lot of the issues. They should focus on fitting meters that actually work. Thats another story lol. Tbh we need some innovation around this. Having 2 boxes is a great work around but seems silly when we could have a neater, bigger box purpose built for the job. Or supplies placed in more sensible locations such as the garage itself in this case.
@electrician247 I am surprised the metering is still going external because every new home has to have a smart meter so why they don't go inside I don't know, they don't need access any more
I’m in an 11 year old house with detached garage, with a 2.5 mm cable to the garage, which is fed by a 13A fuse switched spur on the kitchen circuit. In the garage, where it hits another fused switch with lighting and two double sockets fed with no consumer unit. The cabling in the meter box was also badly damaged and EDF took it upon themselves to downgrade the cut out fuse during a meter swap. Now playing ping pong between EDF and the DNO to get resolved. Frustratingly, I did specify a 40A garage circuit when we bought off plan as I was thinking ahead. Shame the developer knew best! Now getting a charger installed as part of an offer when buying a car, which is proving fun as it is being contracted out, not once, but twice. Found out was going to install it and as they are known for cowboy work, asked for it to be assigned to another contractor. As this is taking ages to resolve, I am now getting quotes from local, highly rated electricians as even if I miss out on the ‘free’ install, the value of my property via having a much cleaner and safer install will be better.
Dont know a lot about the zappi, but doesnt EV charging need double pole isolation in the new board for the EV circuit unless it has it in the charger and the new IET 01 states you cant disconnect the cpc on the O-pen which is what all EV chargers currently on the market do so you'd need to have pen fault protection upstream of it to be compliant or does the zappi meet IEC61851. Apologies not trying to be negative just trying to get my head around this new IET 01 regulation that has come out. Nice work btw.
Some miss guided assumptions by others are leading people towards those thoughts. As always it comes back to that horrible word interpretation. Some have come forward with views around EVSE charge points themselves when for me the wording in IET01 does not infer what is suggested. But it's an evolving story so we shall see! Everyone misses the should aspect for support electrodes on PME supplies. Thankfully we don't 😉. So I'm less worried than others whom may rely solely on unicorn technology and ever changing opinions/standards lol.
What size cable did you use mate? I've not got an electric car yet but want to chuck a wire in while all of the house is open? What's the best size cable to put in ?
I hope the customer has told their home insurance company that they have a EV charger point. My insurance company has banned all charging points on site and no EVs in garage . 15:11 also any EVs have to be parked 12 m away from property . Sign of the times with the risks of EV fires. 3 of my friends looked at EVs, but their insurance costs stopped them. New diesel cars instead. Worked out a lot cheaper overall in the end.
You would be best served shopping around for insurance as in domestic premises that is not a common scenario. In commercial very much so. Sounds they are doing you over tbh which is a shame outside of what vehicle you drive. That is very common... As for installers advising consumers in terms of insurance around the vehicle they drive. Utter drivel tbh. Very much self responsibility around that matter. Although with solar systems mounted to physical structures and household batteries we do encourage them to make enquiries. Seems the world wants babying sometimes. I feel for people like that. Hope it helps
@electrician247 the 3 people I know who looked at EVs are all domestic customers. Insurance costs were crazy for home and EV car insurance. I'm business. I would never even consider a EV of any sort. The ones I know who did have a EV have all gone back to a normal car. All said never again. Diesel will be king for generations
@huwrichards9016 I find the rhetoric around different forms of propulsion boring and childish tbh. I've got diesel and EV vehicles both at work and privately. They are all just cars and vans. Ridiculous behaviour tbh.
6mm is correct for a high value charger. These supposedly charge at a maximum of 42 amps. A 4mm cable is rated at 41 amps underground without heating according to cable manufacturers so 6mm is next option. Add the supply of other garage services I.e. drills, lights, compressor etc you have no options.
EVSE demand depends on the supply voltage. Worst case would be 220V ish. Buried direct can carry more current as can xlpe and 90 degree C accessories. So no rule of thumb on this. Needs proper design.
Love your work but as a meter installer that sort of thing makes me cry and leads to loads of job aborts due to lack of space. Safety notice left and customer most likely hacked off at possible major expense looming🤷♂️
Not in this meter box. DNO approved and regardless smart meter fitted. Loads more space than prior so making your job easier 😉. I would like to see what the safety notice stated. That could put a meter operator in potential hot water and expense. Be interested to see a copy if you don't mind. Fire it over to mark@powersonic.co in confidence. The only party with no ownership of that space is the meter operator so I understand and feel the pain. But that kind of approach is what leads to poor outcomes for consumers. We need a collaborative approach and ultimately that involves more space for all 💪
@JasperJanssen That isn't quite true plenty of space for future metering. More than prior to this adjustment. If meter operators require more room in the future perhaps the core problem will be solved 😉. We have measured the space post and prior to our work alongoing with the codes in terms of electrical safety. All sit on the side of our work perfectly aligned with the DNO area engineer and property owner. Done and done. Pop that in the expert on the Internet inbox and process it for me 💪
Which DNO is that? The reason I ask is a lot of electricians are unaware that just because they are in a DNO area that the house especially new builds could be an IDNO that's not been adopted by the DNO and there are a lot of IDNOs today. I would suggest following the ENA guidance.
@@j.f5212 Basics for most electricians but especially those working in solar/battery sectors. I know what mean like Last Mile etc... This is within a normal DNO now. ENA guide the DNOs, we work with them. This has to start to follow up a joined up approach between all to best serve consumers. The nonsense around who owns space is exactly that. Everyone needs to remember who the paying customer is and how best to support/serve them. Which thankfully is starting to happen. Just the developers to get up to speed. Thanks
@@electrician247 there wouldn’t be any space left if you had reinstalled the meter isolator . Meter operatives aren’t authorised to go into the equipment you have fitted so if the customers meter ever needs exchanging the job will get aborted . Just a future thought for you . 👍🏻
We did think about it due to distance from the house from. However impedance path is negligible due to cable sizes so we are fine with it. Once the gateway drops in we will have more spds. Always an option tho.
The Insurance implications are what these companies are scared of as we have all seen EV vehicles and commercial vehicles like Buses on fire on Public Roads but in reality it is no different to storing a Petrol Lawnmower for example in your garage the risk is the same
The fact of the matter is no new build should not be built without… 1 a driveway and / or garage 2 solar panels 3 a header ready for EV in a sensible position.
@NickLeon-t8l show the legislation that prohibits switch fuses in meter cabinets? I will wait. Also referring to other humans as idiots is pretty childish. Come on your better than that surely.
@@electrician247 I’d imagine he’s referring to ENA EREC G87 , although I understand this is perhaps just guidance not law. Agreed he could have been politer
@stephenfanthorpe2708 that is the membership organisation for dno operators. No legislation exists regarding what can be position in a meter cabinet. Room of course has to be provided. The overall solution in new build is pretty simple. Reworking existing setups requires joined up thinking and shared space. Certainly with switch fuses.
@@electrician247 Interesting. I'm curious what kind of damage pattern do you see using a hook ? Advantage is "one hand" plug in/out, no need to roll and unroll
Good job. The supply is 80A. The original setup had a 63A main DP C Type MCB, good idea but only 63A not using all the power available. Question. Why was the MCB changed to a main _fuse_ rather than retain MCB C type protection? As an aside, the French have a main 300-500 mA RCBO/combined main switch called a *_Disjoncteur différentielle (DF)._* The DF is important as it means it gives earth leakage AND overload protection, (RCBO in the UK). Not to be confused with an _Interrupteur différentiel (ID),_ which is the same as an RCD in the UK. The French are ahead of us.
Primarily to allow for selectivity on short circuit faults. Any such fault within the installation would most likely have taken out said MCB alongside the affected final circuits. Fuses allow for greater selectivity to avoid that. Which is why 63A MCB was utilised to provide that from the suppliers fuse. Thanks
@@electrician247 Thx Mark. 17 available amps are not being used. Are 75A fuses available? Then an extra 12 amps can be used with fuse selectivity maintained. The C type gives the selectivity. Combine in one box: 1) C curve 63A DP MCB, but 70A are available. 2) Wylex WRMT 100/2 100A 100mA 2 Pole Time Delayed RCD. (can be used as main incomer as contact gap more than 4mm). Getting common in the UK especially in flats, and a way of getting near the French way of total system protection.
@@johnburns4017 Sadly C curve does not offer selectivity in that way on short circuit faults. The graphs overlap to closely. ElectricalOM is great tool to show this. Time delayed is not allowable for OCPD on the submain to CU. It would require protection for short circuit and overload. It could be used in conjunction with a Fuse and MCB though. Fuse and MCB sizes are generally 63A then 80A. The other benefit of fuses is the max Zs value. MCBs are not so generous and this was actually out of scope as installed.
@JasperJanssen would require a lintel in the wall for close proximity. Would also require approval for the site owner for aesthetics on the estate. We have been down this road having had an estate of 300 homes corrected in similar circumstances. What seems sensible and simple often isn't when done retrospectively. Much easier ways when initial designs are considered and done correctly. For example the solar we have proposed here requires approval from the site developers due to aesthetics and look of the estate. Who knew. 🧐😉
@darrenplant1428 a far simpler way is a bugger area more suited to services. Extra boxes on the wall are sticking plasters imho. No excuses on new build. Nice plant room for services. Could even be in the garage 🤷♂️. So many options to do it properly and yet what is shown in this video is the default around the UK. Shocking if you ask me.
@@davefarmery8180 try bigger.... The existing SWA to house is 16mm, to garage 25mm 5 core XLPE SWA. Once the gateway and solar go in all will make sense. 10mm Volt drop and Zs would be the enemy on feed/return to gateway.
I would like to know what meter operative and supplier would have let you tamper with metering equipment! stop putting other electrical controls in meter cupboards that you electricians have to authority to do so. As many metering engineers have experienced and have previously said it ends up being an aborted job due to the customers sparks filling up the metering cupboard and leaving no space for a new meter. which comes in different shapes and sizes.
Did you notice the equipment already in the meter cabinet? Maybe rewind and watch again. Metering engineers need to stop causing problems out of nothing and start engineering to best serve consumers rather than themselves. An epedemic of failure largely sat in a lack of skills. Perhaps the simplest solution is for meter engineers to not be a thing and leave it to the DNO and electricians? As was the case here. Harmony achieved and a consumer best served. As for tampering... What exactly has being tampered with? The meter is exactly as it was installed as is the service head. Do better Nick.
@@electrician247 The ENA have issued the following statement: “While the meter cabinet is the customer’s, it is a space designed for the use of electricity industry apparatus only and no allowance is made for additional equipment. For safety reasons, we would not recommend that any internal wiring, including a consumer unit, is installed within the cabinet.” Energy Networks Association Furthermore, this is supported by guidance from the Department for Business, Energy & Industrial Strategy in Section 2.9 of its publication Smart Meter Guidance for Domestic New Builds - Guidance for Developers and Architects, and relevant to all those involved in the specification of metering locations in new-build premises, which is reproduced below: “External meter boxes/cupboards should only contain equipment required to enable an electricity (or gas) supply to be provided to the premises safely, as defined by relevant regulations.
Cowboy install 😮😮 you can’t install customers fuse boards in the meter box ! It’s for DNO and supplies equipment only as per network energy association. Should have installed meter box next to it dedicated to the customers equipment ! EFIXX went through all has on their channel last year
Mick needs to do more research than Efixx. A myth created to shift outdoor consumer units. The ENA have issued guidance for DNOs. Most have internal standards and policies which at the end of the day are unenforceable. I know I work for one. Also I agree with Mr. MARKO unnecessarily rude. Manners cost not very much.
@@twitchlightning8377 I have a box which I own in my home and some outside body says I cannot fit anything inside even thought it is safe and conforms to regs? Internal standards and policies are meaningless.
@@johnburns4017 ownership is a grey area in some eyes. My view is we have to provide an area for DNOs and meter owners to site equipment. So long as that is done and they can maintain it job done for me. If they are not able to work alongside electricians and consumers in achieving that we are in trouble tbh. Things like this need resolution so we all have plenty of room. Hopefully developers change ways.
Because that is pretty boring and tbh simple. We have countless videos of that process on the channel should you wish to see that very limited and rather mundane aspect. We might revisit that during the solar and battery storage works. If you would like to see specific content, make it in exactly that way yourself. Thanks.
@@electrician247 or because it was probably thrown in any old way and I wonder if yous met the min depth for the SWA and covered it in tape/ribbon to indicate a cable was burried in the stones? Just saying the “boring “ stuff to you doesn’t help people who haven’t a clue or can’t see full work! All you showed was a cable put in, a new fuseboard, updated the meter cabnite a bit and the zappi working nothing else educational wise 🤷♂️
The wonderful common sense approach is brilliant, far to many youtube videos are picky as hell just to justify the video. Yes, I've seen loads of 'questionable' electrics, some sloppy some justifiable, due to existing or physical issues. Informative and helpful
Neat and tidy alteration in that meter cabinet + it's now in safer working condition with those exposed copper cables replaced - A1.
That's the thing a few seem to have missed. Was potentially deadly regardless of setup etc. Good spot
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Thank you for this Mark, I enjoyed it. I think you did well and it is a nice looking install as usual. It has been widely promoted over the years, even the NICEIC pointed out a year ago not to put anything in a meter cupboard as it is not allowed and if the DNO felt as such, contractors could be told to remove the equipment at their expense. it was an eye opener to me to read in last month's IET piece on outdoor consumer units, they actually quoted the Energy Networks Association as it only being a recommendation. Having said that, it was also mentioned that individual DNOs might have their own rules, which seems daft to me. You seem okay with your DNO that came to pull the fuse and put it back seeing the before and after without complaint.
That was a timely little video. I got a request from an EV newbie about to take delivery what to do about installing a charger. They won't understand much but they'll get an idea about pitfalls and tricky decisions about locating a unit. They may be lucky with an easy install or may need a good sparks to be inventive to solve any impediments. I noticed your name check of Artisan and Cory so I reckon that's a good recommendation. 😉
I enjoyed the video and it is good to be made aware of all the options out there and the high standards you should expect from the installer. But the title through me as my EV charger is installed in my garage and I was wondering what the issue might be, but at least it made me watch till the end 🤣😂
Wow…. That new existing installation….. The Trained Electrician / Money must be so proud of sub standard work.
New build. Govt regulation strikes again. No quality measures.
Don’t these house builders want to even pretend the houses they build are EV ready? UK is stuck in the dark ages, why isn’t a new development 3 phase. I think you did a great job provisioning for future battery and or solar.
It's not even that much more expensive for basic provision during construction. So it makes no sense.
As of June 2022, new buildings in Great Britain are required to have electric car charging points according to the Part S Building Regs - both for residential and commercial properties. The legal requirement also extends to major renovations of buildings with ten parking spaces.
So why are so many new builds not doing them? If the plans for the building were drawn up before June 2022 then they can get away with not installing them.
Absolitley most are working from plans pre 2018 atm
I came across a new build where the garage feed was 1.5mm2, 3 core swa from the living room ring via a FCU.
Came across this situation myself on a new build costing 500K+
Had to do something very similar for our EV install in detached garage in a new build, involved digging up some patio to run new cable as the existing garage sub-board only has a 16A fuse for lights and sockets. Until the Gov regulates on this, lazy/cost-cutting developers will not change their ways
@6:25. If neatness is paramount then get a hockey stick pipe to match the other two to leave it super neat.
We did think of a hockey stick however with every action comes a reaction. CCC being the case on that.
That said more changes are coming around this during the solar phase of work 😉
Commendable that you have shared this. Shame on Efixx for suggestions they stopped this single handed. Nothing at all related towards selling outdoor consumer units.
So did they force the ENA & DNOs to come to this position?
@rednammoc no but it seems perhaps they think so 🤷♂️
Prefer to keep it on the topic my friend. What others do is outside my control. I'm trying to avoid calling out specific brands, energy retailers and content creators in the hope the core problem can be solved. Surely that's more important than who is right or wrong or who sells what.
It's an interesting point about the DNOs and ENA. Not all are aligned and tbh they have bigger fish to fry.
So it's up to building regs, property owners, developers and electricians to sort out what is currently absolute nonsense.
Simply shouldn't be a thing imho. We had a 300 home estate a few years ago corrected and I am inclined to go down that road again here.
@8:56. If you don't use the old garage supply as a part of the solar install it may come in useful under a vehicle to load situation with a couple of dedicated sockets in the house to use if there is a power outage.
Yes those technologies are coming. You never know
It's ridiculous that new build homes are still being thrown up with 2.5mm feeds to detached garages. I've had to do the same thing myself in the same way. The EV and PV markets are screwed though - too many fly-by-night installers doing the Octopiss method of stapling stuff to the wall in a way that might well work, for now, but is ugly, nasty and will cause homeowners problems in the future. The trouble is, every EV owner thinks they're an electrical expert and their forums/videos are full of comments on how chargepoints should be cheap and easy to fit with any spark charging more than a hundred quid over the price of a Zappi being a con man.
The cult of EV has brewed up elements of society that are frankly horrid. EV experts being one of those.
It's like we spend decades training to understand how to do our jobs. But Brian from IT has it sussed after registering in the Facebook home automation group and unless we are prepared to agree with him we are out to rip him off 🤣.
Thankfully some see the value like this awesome customer did.
Well it is easy just sparks think they can charge what they want
The builders I work for, I make them put two external meter boxes in, one for the metering and one for my equipment, obviously that wouldn't occur to a national house builder but that's what they should be doing, you get a jobs worth from a DNO and that equipment may have to come out.
Tbf the DNOs are fine it's metering companies that cause a lot of the issues. They should focus on fitting meters that actually work. Thats another story lol.
Tbh we need some innovation around this. Having 2 boxes is a great work around but seems silly when we could have a neater, bigger box purpose built for the job. Or supplies placed in more sensible locations such as the garage itself in this case.
@electrician247 I am surprised the metering is still going external because every new home has to have a smart meter so why they don't go inside I don't know, they don't need access any more
I’m in an 11 year old house with detached garage, with a 2.5 mm cable to the garage, which is fed by a 13A fuse switched spur on the kitchen circuit. In the garage, where it hits another fused switch with lighting and two double sockets fed with no consumer unit. The cabling in the meter box was also badly damaged and EDF took it upon themselves to downgrade the cut out fuse during a meter swap. Now playing ping pong between EDF and the DNO to get resolved. Frustratingly, I did specify a 40A garage circuit when we bought off plan as I was thinking ahead. Shame the developer knew best! Now getting a charger installed as part of an offer when buying a car, which is proving fun as it is being contracted out, not once, but twice. Found out was going to install it and as they are known for cowboy work, asked for it to be assigned to another contractor. As this is taking ages to resolve, I am now getting quotes from local, highly rated electricians as even if I miss out on the ‘free’ install, the value of my property via having a much cleaner and safer install will be better.
Absolutely. Value is absolutely key and speaking personally on my own home I'm happy to pay more to find better value.
I thought that the cut-out was the DNO's property. I didn't think that a meter operator was allowed to replace the fuse?!
@@rugbygirlsdadg Some are now SAP approved and at the request of DNOs are down rating meter fuses during meter upgrades. Very common sadly.
Dont know a lot about the zappi, but doesnt EV charging need double pole isolation in the new board for the EV circuit unless it has it in the charger and the new IET 01 states you cant disconnect the cpc on the O-pen which is what all EV chargers currently on the market do so you'd need to have pen fault protection upstream of it to be compliant or does the zappi meet IEC61851.
Apologies not trying to be negative just trying to get my head around this new IET 01 regulation that has come out.
Nice work btw.
Some miss guided assumptions by others are leading people towards those thoughts.
As always it comes back to that horrible word interpretation. Some have come forward with views around EVSE charge points themselves when for me the wording in IET01 does not infer what is suggested.
But it's an evolving story so we shall see! Everyone misses the should aspect for support electrodes on PME supplies. Thankfully we don't 😉. So I'm less worried than others whom may rely solely on unicorn technology and ever changing opinions/standards lol.
Zaptec coms with a charger to grid just waiting for that one Thanks for you video Pro have a nice day regards from Holland
What size cable did you use mate? I've not got an electric car yet but want to chuck a wire in while all of the house is open? What's the best size cable to put in ?
I put 10mm to be safe.
10mm is marginal if you want to charge two cars...
I hope the customer has told their home insurance company that they have a EV charger point. My insurance company has banned all charging points on site and no EVs in garage .
15:11 also any EVs have to be parked 12 m away from property . Sign of the times with the risks of EV fires. 3 of my friends looked at EVs, but their insurance costs stopped them. New diesel cars instead. Worked out a lot cheaper overall in the end.
You would be best served shopping around for insurance as in domestic premises that is not a common scenario. In commercial very much so. Sounds they are doing you over tbh which is a shame outside of what vehicle you drive. That is very common...
As for installers advising consumers in terms of insurance around the vehicle they drive. Utter drivel tbh. Very much self responsibility around that matter. Although with solar systems mounted to physical structures and household batteries we do encourage them to make enquiries. Seems the world wants babying sometimes. I feel for people like that. Hope it helps
@electrician247 the 3 people I know who looked at EVs are all domestic customers. Insurance costs were crazy for home and EV car insurance.
I'm business. I would never even consider a EV of any sort. The ones I know who did have a EV have all gone back to a normal car. All said never again.
Diesel will be king for generations
@huwrichards9016 I find the rhetoric around different forms of propulsion boring and childish tbh. I've got diesel and EV vehicles both at work and privately. They are all just cars and vans. Ridiculous behaviour tbh.
So Mark, could you actually put the Zappi inside the garage if you keep your car locked inside?
The zappi can go in the garage
6mm is correct for a high value charger. These supposedly charge at a maximum of 42 amps. A 4mm cable is rated at 41 amps underground without heating according to cable manufacturers so 6mm is next option. Add the supply of other garage services I.e. drills, lights, compressor etc you have no options.
EVSE demand depends on the supply voltage. Worst case would be 220V ish.
Buried direct can carry more current as can xlpe and 90 degree C accessories. So no rule of thumb on this. Needs proper design.
Love your work but as a meter installer that sort of thing makes me cry and leads to loads of job aborts due to lack of space. Safety notice left and customer most likely hacked off at possible major expense looming🤷♂️
Not in this meter box. DNO approved and regardless smart meter fitted. Loads more space than prior so making your job easier 😉.
I would like to see what the safety notice stated. That could put a meter operator in potential hot water and expense. Be interested to see a copy if you don't mind. Fire it over to mark@powersonic.co in confidence. The only party with no ownership of that space is the meter operator so I understand and feel the pain. But that kind of approach is what leads to poor outcomes for consumers. We need a collaborative approach and ultimately that involves more space for all 💪
@JasperJanssen That isn't quite true plenty of space for future metering. More than prior to this adjustment. If meter operators require more room in the future perhaps the core problem will be solved 😉.
We have measured the space post and prior to our work alongoing with the codes in terms of electrical safety. All sit on the side of our work perfectly aligned with the DNO area engineer and property owner. Done and done. Pop that in the expert on the Internet inbox and process it for me 💪
Which DNO is that? The reason I ask is a lot of electricians are unaware that just because they are in a DNO area that the house especially new builds could be an IDNO that's not been adopted by the DNO and there are a lot of IDNOs today. I would suggest following the ENA guidance.
@@j.f5212 Basics for most electricians but especially those working in solar/battery sectors. I know what mean like Last Mile etc... This is within a normal DNO now. ENA guide the DNOs, we work with them. This has to start to follow up a joined up approach between all to best serve consumers. The nonsense around who owns space is exactly that. Everyone needs to remember who the paying customer is and how best to support/serve them. Which thankfully is starting to happen. Just the developers to get up to speed. Thanks
@@electrician247 there wouldn’t be any space left if you had reinstalled the meter isolator . Meter operatives aren’t authorised to go into the equipment you have fitted so if the customers meter ever needs exchanging the job will get aborted . Just a future thought for you . 👍🏻
Nothing wrong with that all good job 👍
Is it legal to install the charger inside a garage that is in a bloc of garages?
It’s not illegal that’s for sure
There's no such thing as going over board when it comes to new consumer boards. Especially when its over a couple of pounds.
Tidy job for what you had to work with! Might’ve been worth adding an SPD in the proteus DB?
We did think about it due to distance from the house from. However impedance path is negligible due to cable sizes so we are fine with it.
Once the gateway drops in we will have more spds.
Always an option tho.
The Insurance implications are what these companies are scared of as we have all seen EV vehicles and commercial vehicles like Buses on fire on Public Roads but in reality it is no different to storing a Petrol Lawnmower for example in your garage the risk is the same
Sort of agree but petrol law mowers can be extinguished. Stored energy in batteries is very hard to stop once on fire.
@electrician247 good point
Was that ESE 4 box with the DP C63 MCB fitted by the DNO or the house developer?
That will be the developer or their electricians anyway, DNO only fit the service fuse/head, meter operator the meter.
@@electrician247
Saves an expensive callout to the DNO to change a main fuse. And the time involved as well.
Why can’t you have the zappi inside the garage?
I’ve a tethered zappi inside the garage & just have the connector running under the garage door
You can. Customer doesn't want it there 🤷♂️
@@electrician247 oh it was just the title of the video seemed to indicate there was a reason you couldn’t
Sorry
@g2024_ no problem. More leaning into the poor setup of new build garage supplies. It's all in the video
Only an 80Amp fuse???
The fact of the matter is no new build should not be built without…
1 a driveway and / or garage
2 solar panels
3 a header ready for EV in a sensible position.
True but yet they are sadly.
I thought it wasn’t allowed to install switchgear in the dno’s box
Not true but often misunderstood in intent.
@@electrician247 it is true and they have a reason for not allowing idiots putting switchgear in meter boxes, anything for an easy life!
@NickLeon-t8l show the legislation that prohibits switch fuses in meter cabinets? I will wait. Also referring to other humans as idiots is pretty childish. Come on your better than that surely.
@@electrician247 I’d imagine he’s referring to ENA EREC G87 , although I understand this is perhaps just guidance not law. Agreed he could have been politer
@stephenfanthorpe2708 that is the membership organisation for dno operators. No legislation exists regarding what can be position in a meter cabinet. Room of course has to be provided. The overall solution in new build is pretty simple. Reworking existing setups requires joined up thinking and shared space. Certainly with switch fuses.
Recommending adding a Chargehanger.
Is that one of those brackets to hold cables in the air? Not a fan personally as can lead to damage in other ways to a trip hazard. Not for me
@@electrician247 Interesting. I'm curious what kind of damage pattern do you see using a hook ?
Advantage is "one hand" plug in/out, no need to roll and unroll
Why not use EV Ultra cable? It's so much easier to install & looks so much neater. It's a game changer.
For a 25mm submain... good luck lol.
Good job. The supply is 80A. The original setup had a 63A main DP C Type MCB, good idea but only 63A not using all the power available. Question. Why was the MCB changed to a main _fuse_ rather than retain MCB C type protection?
As an aside, the French have a main 300-500 mA RCBO/combined main switch called a *_Disjoncteur différentielle (DF)._* The DF is important as it means it gives earth leakage AND overload protection, (RCBO in the UK). Not to be confused with an _Interrupteur différentiel (ID),_ which is the same as an RCD in the UK. The French are ahead of us.
Primarily to allow for selectivity on short circuit faults. Any such fault within the installation would most likely have taken out said MCB alongside the affected final circuits. Fuses allow for greater selectivity to avoid that. Which is why 63A MCB was utilised to provide that from the suppliers fuse. Thanks
@@electrician247
Thx Mark. 17 available amps are not being used. Are 75A fuses available? Then an extra 12 amps can be used with fuse selectivity maintained. The C type gives the selectivity.
Combine in one box:
1) C curve 63A DP MCB, but 70A are available.
2) Wylex WRMT 100/2 100A 100mA 2 Pole Time Delayed RCD. (can be used as main incomer as contact gap more than 4mm).
Getting common in the UK especially in flats, and a way of getting near the French way of total system protection.
@@johnburns4017 Sadly C curve does not offer selectivity in that way on short circuit faults. The graphs overlap to closely. ElectricalOM is great tool to show this.
Time delayed is not allowable for OCPD on the submain to CU. It would require protection for short circuit and overload. It could be used in conjunction with a Fuse and MCB though. Fuse and MCB sizes are generally 63A then 80A.
The other benefit of fuses is the max Zs value. MCBs are not so generous and this was actually out of scope as installed.
@@electrician247
_"It could be used in conjunction with a Fuse and MCB though"_
Do you mean RCD rather than MCB?
@@johnburns4017 fuse or MCB rather than and lol. So time delayed RCD with a fuse or MCB. I would suggest fuse to aid max Zs and selectivity.
Outdoor consumer unit? That’s really really dumb idea.
Not a negative comment on what you have done but why don’t we just start fitting another inset meter box.
Absolutely and that's the point of the video mate. We need better provision so this bollox doesn't have to be a thing.
@@electrician247 I had it a while ago and just fitted one next to the existing one. You are defo right though “this sh*t needs sorting out.
@@JasperJanssenonly thing I can think of is U values. I would probably suggest better security on them.
@JasperJanssen would require a lintel in the wall for close proximity. Would also require approval for the site owner for aesthetics on the estate. We have been down this road having had an estate of 300 homes corrected in similar circumstances. What seems sensible and simple often isn't when done retrospectively. Much easier ways when initial designs are considered and done correctly. For example the solar we have proposed here requires approval from the site developers due to aesthetics and look of the estate. Who knew. 🧐😉
@darrenplant1428 a far simpler way is a bugger area more suited to services. Extra boxes on the wall are sticking plasters imho. No excuses on new build. Nice plant room for services. Could even be in the garage 🤷♂️. So many options to do it properly and yet what is shown in this video is the default around the UK. Shocking if you ask me.
Mark what clamp is that on the swa cable please
Tenby clamp
You mean the jubilee clip ???
@@authuruksake969 I think they mean the Tenby clamp the earth's bolt on to on the swa rather than the jubilee itself. Common in lamp posts
Was that 6mm² 5 core
No lol. Hardly likely to run a gateway 😉
@electrician247 what size cable is it 63a feeding cu so 10mm , looks small in the video but can't really tell ,
@@davefarmery8180 try bigger.... The existing SWA to house is 16mm, to garage 25mm 5 core XLPE SWA. Once the gateway and solar go in all will make sense. 10mm Volt drop and Zs would be the enemy on feed/return to gateway.
The “charger” is in the car.
Very useful I don't think anyone knew that 🤷♂️
Smaller penny washers needed mark ;)
Not in this case lol
I would like to know what meter operative and supplier would have let you tamper with metering equipment! stop putting other electrical controls in meter cupboards that you electricians have to authority to do so. As many metering engineers have experienced and have previously said it ends up being an aborted job due to the customers sparks filling up the metering cupboard and leaving no space for a new meter. which comes in different shapes and sizes.
Did you notice the equipment already in the meter cabinet? Maybe rewind and watch again. Metering engineers need to stop causing problems out of nothing and start engineering to best serve consumers rather than themselves. An epedemic of failure largely sat in a lack of skills. Perhaps the simplest solution is for meter engineers to not be a thing and leave it to the DNO and electricians? As was the case here. Harmony achieved and a consumer best served.
As for tampering... What exactly has being tampered with? The meter is exactly as it was installed as is the service head.
Do better Nick.
@@electrician247 The ENA have issued the following statement:
“While the meter cabinet is the customer’s, it is a space designed for the use of electricity industry apparatus only and no allowance is made for additional equipment. For safety reasons, we would not recommend that any internal wiring, including a consumer unit, is installed within the cabinet.”
Energy Networks Association
Furthermore, this is supported by guidance from the Department for Business, Energy & Industrial Strategy in Section 2.9 of its publication Smart Meter Guidance for Domestic New Builds - Guidance for Developers and Architects, and relevant to all those involved in the specification of metering locations in new-build premises, which is reproduced below:
“External meter boxes/cupboards should only contain equipment required to enable an electricity (or gas) supply to be provided to the premises safely, as defined by relevant regulations.
Nick doesn't sound the smartest. I would not waste valuable time responding. But top marks for remaining classy around such delinquents
Cowboy install 😮😮 you can’t install customers fuse boards in the meter box ! It’s for DNO and supplies equipment only as per network energy association.
Should have installed meter box next to it dedicated to the customers equipment ! EFIXX went through all has on their channel last year
Incorrect. Try harder and maybe be less rude.
Mick needs to do more research than Efixx. A myth created to shift outdoor consumer units.
The ENA have issued guidance for DNOs. Most have internal standards and policies which at the end of the day are unenforceable.
I know I work for one.
Also I agree with Mr. MARKO unnecessarily rude. Manners cost not very much.
mickspparks, It was a main switch not a fuse board (CU).
@@twitchlightning8377
I have a box which I own in my home and some outside body says I cannot fit anything inside even thought it is safe and conforms to regs? Internal standards and policies are meaningless.
@@johnburns4017 ownership is a grey area in some eyes. My view is we have to provide an area for DNOs and meter owners to site equipment. So long as that is done and they can maintain it job done for me. If they are not able to work alongside electricians and consumers in achieving that we are in trouble tbh. Things like this need resolution so we all have plenty of room. Hopefully developers change ways.
Great video. Just a small point..... the Zappi isn't an EV charger, it's a charge point. The charger is in the car.
I think we all know that but thanks.
Just a small point, Phil, you are a weapon.
Why not show properly how the cables were brought up and over and into the zappi?
Because that is pretty boring and tbh simple. We have countless videos of that process on the channel should you wish to see that very limited and rather mundane aspect.
We might revisit that during the solar and battery storage works.
If you would like to see specific content, make it in exactly that way yourself.
Thanks.
@@electrician247 or because it was probably thrown in any old way and I wonder if yous met the min depth for the SWA and covered it in tape/ribbon to indicate a cable was burried in the stones?
Just saying the “boring “ stuff to you doesn’t help people who haven’t a clue or can’t see full work! All you showed was a cable put in, a new fuseboard, updated the meter cabnite a bit and the zappi working nothing else educational wise 🤷♂️