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Never played a Civ game, but I must say that I very much adore the idea of letting historical characters speak their actual language. If the pronunciation is slightly off doesn't really disturb me much, it's the principle that counts.
I never played a Civ game, either, but when I saw a clip compilation I was beyond amazed that Empress Maria Theresia actually spoke German with a Viennese upper class accent. Presumably, it would have actually sounded a bit different in her day, but I'm not sure if we can actually reconstruct that with any confidence and the fact that they went to the length of making it that specific in the first place is already commendable.
Given that he's most likely indeed a Greek speaker, I'm more inclined to say (most of) the specific mistakes made were due to the direction given. A modern native speaker would make different ones (at least I would, but I'm no degenerate Athenian). Except for the pitch, we lost that.
One of the reasons I love the civilization games is the little portraits of different cultures. It's such a great little spark to ignite that curiosity to learn more.
Honestly, the issues with aspirated consonants while employing a native Greek speaker could have easily been circumvented by going for a Cypriot/Rhodian/etc speaker specifically. Phonetically you get all the good stuff of the Greek cadence, and you also have familiarity with pronouncing all of the aspirated consonants. Plus they would have no issues with geminate consonants either.
Just a few days ago a new DLC for Age of Empires 2 was released, where Athenians, Archaemenids and Spartans were added with completely new language files. They appear to try speaking a archaic greek from around the 5th century. Could you have a look at these as well? :)
@@freetongue Don't remember I said any opinions, rather than facts, because i am greek so maaaybe i know better my language right 🙂 Can't wait to see your toxic reply now.
It’s really interesting to me that in the end, at 20:01, you seem to say “dhank you” (or even “dank you”) instead of “thank you”, because someone told me that the th sound is changing in English.
It’s an idiosyncrasy of my speech; it’s wide-spread in English speakers around the world; about 10% of us pronounce thank in such a way. I don’t believe it’s a part of a general change.
@ Thanks for your reply. It’s the first time I notice it, and I’ve watched hours of you speaking. The person who told me that also told me that no Roman used cases in speech, only in writing, so… The sad thing is: she teaches that to university students.
While I admire your love and skill in Ancient Greek. I really don’t think video game companies have the time/money to make these things good. For them this is a tiny part, the fact that they even tried is worth appreciating.
I disagree. These games cost hundreds of millions to make, and finding someone qualified and willing to advise on the pronounciation of a few sentences is basically free in comparison. That said, I agree that even trying is laudable.
There are definitely worse offenders of butchering ancient languages in videogames: Ubisoft! Where the Latin in Origins is nonsensical and there is more Modern Greek than Ancient Greek in Odyssey… it’s just so obvious that they used Google translate
Hey Luke! Could you make a video about the difference between Attic Greek and Koiné Greek? I've searched all over the internet and never found a good source expoing the differences between them. And one question if I might ask, do you think it's a good idea to learn Modern Greek to then learn Attic Greek?
Hey - I teach Classics at secondary school level - it entirely depends on what your goals are. Like if you’re learning Greek to read ancient sources, just learn Ancient Greek (also, Attic doesn’t get you all of the sources, but most of them - so think about what you wanna be able to read.) If you want to go to Greece and interact with Greeks and modern Greek culture then learn Modern Greek. Don’t learn Ancient Greek - they don’t like it! Does knowing Modern Greek help you learn Ancient Greek? Yes and no. Yes, because they’re directly related - so the words and alphabet will be similar, but the grammar of Ancient Greek will be totally alien. Plus, if you’re learning them both at the same time - from scratch - things will get really confusing really quickly (it would be like learning Latin and Italian at the same time) and it’s easy to get them mixed up. I generally think it’s much better for your learning, sanity and enjoyment to just learn one and really stick with it.
From a modern Greek's perspective. Learning modern Greek to then learn ancient Greek, is like, learning one instrument, to then learn another similar one. Bongos and drums for example. It will make learning the second instrument much easier. But it will also make it more confusing because you will have to unlearn and relearn stuff. You will have learned two instruments instead of one, for different occasions. But you will have put double the effort. The good think is that there are a lot of yt videos teaching modern Greek. But is it really worth it if you don't plan on staying in the country? Be wary that it's a hard, but fun, language. It's up to you!
@@Nikelaos_Khristianos You are probably misinformed, what we don't like in Greece, is people who have been taught even at this time, the Erasmian and at the same time trying to speak Greek with a western European or American accent, which have the worse result cause it doesn't sound at all like ancient Greek and or also modern Greek. Now about modern and ancient differences in Greek, let me ask you, is it better to learn the Erasmian and have no real knowledge or learn modern Greek and just learn the differences? I also disagree that is the same with the differences between Latin and Italian, ancient Greek vocabulary is very close to modern and especially for those who were taught the "καθαρεύουσα" modern Greek (aka the older Greeks), there are many grammar similarities too.
I love videos like this! I'm curious though, when he says "in time/ en khronoi" did that expression exist? It sure doesn't in some romance languages. Could be an anachronism. (see what I did there?)
In Italian "in tempo" only means "[just] in time [for]", never "in [due] time" or "overtime". In French the corresponding expression to the Italian one is constructed as "at time".
In Italian "in tempo" only means "[just] in time [for]", never "in [due] time" or "overtime". In French the corresponding expression to the Italian one is constructed as "at time".
Maybe the problem isn't the coach or the instructor, maybe the actor required more training time and it wasn't possible because of a deadline or something, you know for people who don't have aspirated consonants in their mother tongue have extremely hard time pronouncing them correctly. And maybe the coach had to be ok with the progress they made there due to time and resources. I agree with you we should blame the entire video game company 😂😂
Actually there is nothing wrong with using modern phonology to render ancient version scripts. Hōjō Tokimune of Japan also speaks literary Japanese with modern pronunciation, which is the standard way in Classical Japanese classes.
13:41 Are you a 100% sure about this??? Here is a quote from Aristotle's On Plants, 819a : aεἰς τὸ γεννᾶν ἐπιτήδειοι ἄνθη, ὡς ἐπὶ τῶν ἰτεῶν. τινὲς δὲ καὶ ἄνθη καὶ καρποὺς ἐν τοῖς δένδροις, καὶ 40 τἆλλ᾿ ὁπόσα γεννῶνται ἐκ σπέρματος, καὶ ὅσα περικαλύπτουσιν αὐτά. In the Athēnāze textbook that we both have, δένδροις is the dative plural. I've looked it up on Wiktionary and other online dictionaries and they all say the same thing. Where does this δένδρεσιν come from?
Yes, 100% sure; δένδροις only occurs twice in Classical Attic; once in Xenophon and once in Plato, which you can find by searching TLG: XENOPHON Hist. Anabasis {0032.006} (5-4 B.C.) Book 4 chapter 7 section 9 line 4 ὀπισθοφυλάκων λοχαγοὶ ὄντες, καὶ ἄλλοι δέ, ἐφέστασαν ἔξω τῶν δένδρων· οὐ γὰρ ἦν ἀσφαλῶς ἐν τοῖς δένδροις (10) ἑστάναι πλέον ἢ τὸν ἕνα λόχον. ἔνθα δὴ Καλλίμαχος PLATO Phil. Protagoras {0059.022} (5-4 B.C.) Stephanus page 334 section a line 7 ἵπποις δέ· τὰ δὲ βουσὶν μόνον, τὰ δὲ κυσίν· τὰ δέ γε τούτων μὲν οὐδενί, δένδροις δέ· τὰ δὲ τοῦ δένδρου ταῖς μὲν ῥίζαις ἀγαθά, ταῖς δὲ βλάσταις πονηρά, οἷον καὶ ἡ κόπρος πάντων Meanwhile, δένδρεσι(ν) is much more common in Classical Attic by a ratio of 7:1; a few examples, including those of Plato and Xenophon: XENOPHON Hist. Anabasis {0032.006} (5-4 B.C.) Book 4 chapter 8 section 2 line 4 βαλλεν ὁ ὁρίζων, δι’ οὗ ἔδει διαβῆναι. ἦν δὲ οὗτος δασὺς δένδρεσι παχέσι μὲν οὔ, πυκνοῖς δέ. ταῦτ’ ἐπεὶ προσῆλθον οἱ Ἕλληνες ἔκοπτον, σπεύδοντες ἐκ τοῦ χωρίου ὡς τάχιστα XENOPHON Hist. Oeconomicus {0032.003} (5-4 B.C.) Chapter 4 section 14 line 3 ἔνθα γε διατρίβει αὐτός, καὶ ὅπως ὡς κάλλιστα κατεσκευα- σμένοι ἔσονται οἱ παράδεισοι ἐπιμελεῖσθαι δένδρεσι καὶ τοῖς (15) ἄλλοις ἅπασι καλοῖς ὅσα ἡ γῆ φύει. Φασὶ δέ τινες, ἔφη PLATO Phil. Leges {0059.034} (5-4 B.C.) Stephanus page 625 section b line 4 ἀνάπαυλαι κατὰ τὴν ὁδόν, ὡς εἰκός, πνίγους ὄντος τὰ νῦν, ἐν τοῖς ὑψηλοῖς δένδρεσίν εἰσι σκιαραί, καὶ ταῖς ἡλικίαις πρέπον ἂν ἡμῶν εἴη τὸ διαναπαύεσθαι πυκνὰ ἐν αὐταῖς, PLATO Phil. Epigrammata {0059.039} (5-4 B.C.) Book 9 epigram 3 line 5 κέκλασμαι πυκιναῖς χερμάσι βαλλομένη· δένδρεσιν εὐκάρποις οὐδὲν πλέον· ἦ γὰρ ἔγωγε (5) δυσδαίμων ἐς ἐμὴν ὕβριν ἐκαρποφόρουν. PLATO Phil. Epigrammata {0059.041} (5-4 B.C.) Epigram 32 line 5 κέκλασμαι πυκιναῖς χερμάσι βαλλομένη. δένδρεσιν εὐκάρποισ’ οὐδὲν πλέον· ἦ γὰρ ἔγωγε (5) δυσδαίμων ἐς ἐμὴν ὕβριν ἐκαρποφόρουν. ARISTOPHANES Comic. Aves {0019.024} (5-4 B.C.) Line 1066 ἐκ κάλυκος αὐξανόμενον γένυσι παμφάγοις @1 (1065) δένδρεσί τ’ ἐφημμένον καρπὸν ἀποβόσκεται. THUCYDIDES Hist. Historiae {0003.001} (5 B.C.) Book 2 chapter 75 section 1 line 2 (1) Τοσαῦτα ἐπιθειάσας καθίστη ἐς πόλεμον τὸν στρατόν, καὶ πρῶτον μὲν περιεσταύρωσαν αὐτοὺς τοῖς δένδρεσιν ἃ ἔκοψαν, τοῦ μηδένα ἐπεξιέναι, ἔπειτα χῶμα ἔχουν πρὸς This leads me to believe that the δένδροις, once in Plato and once in Xenophon, may have been copying errors. Aristotle writes in Attic, but his works are not considered to be *Classical* Attic. That doesn't mean they're bad, they're simply not as close to the language of Pericles, which is reason I raised this complaint in the video. In a sense, Athenaze is well-named since, while it takes place in Classical Athens, it has a lot of non-Attic usages in it, sometimes more typical of Koine, other times just pure barbarisms. The fact that it uses the grammatically regular δένδροις and υἱοί instead of Classical Attic δένδρεσι(ν) and υἱεῖς testifies to that fact.
Have you seen the new trailer for civ 7? Charlemagne speaks in the beginning (old high German?), do you know someone to recommend making a video about that? 😀 Edit: also super interesting video as always! 😊
@@nagili4 He should speak some form of Latin, because that's the language they used at court. Probably he could still speak Frankish, but that was not the official language. Laws were in Latin, Placita were in Latin, Mass was in Latin. He also understood the very vulgar Latin "pappa", from an Italian source. No source that I know of mentions interpreters.
What you call "biblical greek" is actually koine greek. "Biblical greek" is a modern term invented by clerics of Protestant churches or denominations and in Greece we never use this. In our schools and universities, this term is not mentioned either.
The voice actor was really good. This is how most Greeks would pronounce ancient Greek with ancient Greek pronunciation. Reproducing ancient Greek pronunciation is hard for modern Greeks and needs some training, especially the aspirated consonants and the diphthongs. The result is not perfect, but it is quite satisfactory. It is just a game, not a course in Ancient Greek.
I agree. Everything is correct except the voice actor's pronunciation of ει as εϊ instead of a long ι and not distinguishing the long and short vowels and the pitch accents.
Given the evidence for extreme iotacism in Classical Attic that you yourself made a two-hour video about, I don't think it's such a problem that he pronounces υ as a /i/, per se. However, I understand the attempt was to reconstruct a more conservative Attic phonology rather than the more "vulgar" innovative dialect developing somewhere around that time that was ioticising even the ε that the makers of this video game would've known nothing about.
Right, the existence of the Vulgar Attic phonology is not in dispute for me; but it is attested about a century after Pericles, according to Teodorsson's analysis.
Luke wanted to point out that the voice actor for the role of Pericles was using the Erasmian pronunciation and that he pronounces ει as "ei" instead of "i".
@ yes I’m aware but why did the Greeks write a strict monophthong as ei, while attic spelling writes an epsilon (just as it does for the phonemes /ɛː/ /e/ /eː/)
@@wodzisaww.5500 It's probably to distinguish the vowel qualities [e:] and [ε:] in the orthography in the same way that ου and ω were originally [o:] and [ɔ:] until the 5th century BC.
Long story short, the former diphthong had become a monophthong [e:] by the classical period, so at some point every [e:] was written even though it might not have originated from a diphthong. It's kind of the same with by the way.
Good question! The short answer is that it didn’t: it was restored as a cultism in certain Modern Greek words. There are similar cultisms in Italian and Spanish from Latin.
@polyMATHY_Luke Interesting! So essentially it's just like the sequences /mv/ and /nð/ which emerged in modern Greek in the pronunciation of cultisms even though they never existed historically
@@polyMATHY_Luke As far as I am aware, the sequence is pronounced /ɣm/ in all contexts, and /ŋm/ isn't compatible with modern Greek phonotactics, with the velar nasal appearing only as a pre-velar allophone. Or am I misunderstanding you? Like, what other pronunciation does have in modern Greek? @andreasm5770 What do you mean by that? /mv/ and /nð/ aren't special, right? It's just that AG's voiced plosives became fricatives in MG, in all contexts, so whether there's a nasal before doesn't make a difference. Like, ενδιαφέρον is /en.ði.a'fe.ron/ in MG but /en.di.a.pʰé.ron/ in AG. Wiktionary seems to suggest that the (possibly phonemic) velar nasal in Ancient Greek simply turned into a velar fricative in that context. My _guess_ is that since the status of the velar nasal as a phoneme was probably ambiguous even to the Ancient Greeks, no specific consonant grapheme was chosen for it, instead gamma doubling as both the voiced velar plosive and the velar nasal. In fact we get to see this in words like εγγράφω, where the first gamma is a nasal and the second one a plosive, or in the word εγκρατής, where gamma is used in lieu of a non-existent velar nasal grapheme. Thoughts?
@@polyMATHY_Luke ruclips.net/video/UDBQP7S8w-E/видео.htmlsi=X-a8o5EkGSW5MpTx&t=35 Ah well, apparently they have already recorded Augustus, so might be too late. Well new material for the channel to review. 😁
I find it a bit frustrating to realize how I learnt everything with the wrong pronunciation, even though my books tried to teach us a « prononciation restituée » (sorry I don’t have the words in English). I have it all wrong. 😢 Bad habits taken early, hard to break.
@ thank you Luke, your video is very clear, though I’m having a hard time re-learning the diphtongues, especially the ei (if I understand well, it is a closed sound between the French è and the French i ?). I’ve purchased your recordings of the first verses of the Iliad a few months ago, really enjoyed it, and now that I want to get back on track with my Ancient Greek learning, I’m confident your recordings will also help me getting used to this « new »pronunciation. Thank you for your content. Have a nice day !
I must say I'm actually quite pleased with this rendition, because it's recognisable and actually sounds like somewhat natural speech despite of the inconsistencies you mentioned - whereas many takes on ancient languages suffer severely from directions like "make these vowels long", as people tend to make them a good mile long in consequence, which can be even further from authentic pronunciation as no language has ever sounded anything like that.
@@BrandonBoardman You sure? According to Wiktionary the word νενῑ́κηκᾰς should indeed be correct (perfect participle of νικάω, "to win"). But I don't really know Ancient Greek (I love out-pedanting people though).
At least they tried doing actual classical Greek. In CIV 6 Polish leader speaks fake archaic Polish, basically modern pronunciation with some slightly unusual but still modern grammar. And the acting is terrible which makes it even worse.
Ranieri said one year ago in a reply to a comment "While I appreciate the comment, the problem here is that you seem to believe Modern Greek is the same language as Ancient Greek. It's not. They're very different languages, even more different than Latin and Italian when it comes to pronunciation. I'd recommend reading the books I cited" Let's see what linguists say. Modern greek has 0.77 phonetic similarity and 0.899 rate of retention per 1000 years to classical Greek while Italian has 0.63 and 0.798 to Classical Latin respectively.[1] Next time, do better research and when you make an assertation, try to prove it. [1] Heggarty, Paul (2000) Quantifying change over time in phonetics. In: Colin Renfrew, April McMahon, and Larry Trask (eds.) Time Depth in Historical Linguistics. Cambridge, UK: McDonald Institute for Archeological Research. p. 553
The study you cite affirms the obvious conclusion implicit in the study’s results: Ancient Greek, while the origin of Modern Greek, is a different language from Modern Greek. Indeed, this study shows this to be an unavoidable conclusion.
@@polyMATHY_Luke And modern english is even more distant from the anglo-saxon language which sounded like a german dialect. Why don't you make a video about this topic as well? Besides, it's not all greek or latin in this world.
@@DimitrisTziounis Maybe because no one is out there claiming that Modern English has barely changed since the Old English period. Or more probably, because he specializes in Ancient Greek and Latin, not in Old English. More importantly, why are you perceiving that statement as an attack on the Greek language? Languages change, and Greek is no exception. There's no inherent value in a language being more conservative (or more innovative for that manner)
People also change. Modern Greeks are very different, half of Macedonia is Pontic Greek for instance, changing the culture and demography. Pontus was not even Greek in classical times. Modern Greeks like to think they are direct descendants to Hellas, the language and people and achievements. It’s not entirely so.
Perkles may have been a good politician, but not a good person. During the period of its political dominance, Athens developed into a 'polis tyrannos', which proudly oppressed its allies. Do you really think a democracy need leaders? 😛
That’s a very fair assessment. I don’t think he expressed admiration for Pericles in this video; I’m pretty skeptical of ancient leaders and demagogues, while they were lionized in their own times.
games need good advisors, come on, we are in the era of social media just ask polymathy about it , at least in American english, Latin, and ancient greek...i hate historical errors, come on...
Xαίρε does not mean hello, neither in ancient, nor in modern Greek. Hello means hi, not something specific. Χαίρε is not the same as hello. Χαίρε literally means... rejoice, be happy, enjoy etc. not just hello, which is a generic term to greet someone without wishing something specifically, like χαιρε does!
You're mistaking literal etymology with practical meaning. Just as we say "hello!" as a common greeting in English, Ancient Greek speakers said χαῖρε! in the same situations. It does indeed mean "rejoice," but that literal meaning is not what is implied with the English force of "rejoice" in the context of a salutation. Indeed, the way that Ancient Greek letters begin is Λούκιος Ἑβδομάδωι χαίρειν, which is literally "Luke to Seventh to rejoice," except that "to rejoice" is not the correct translation in this context, despite that being a correct translation in other contexs and that being the etymological meaning; Λούκιος Ἑβδομάδωι χαίρειν means "Luke to Seventh greetings" or "Luke to Seventh salutations." In English we say, "tell Seventh I said hi." In Ancient Greek we say, Ἕβδομον κέλευε χαίρειν. In Modern Greek, χαῖρε! as a greeting is used in imitation of the ancient language.
@@polyMATHY_Luke I respectfully disagree and it shows that you lack knowledge of real Greek culture: When we use a similar term to χαιρε, which is γεια from Hygeia = health, we do not just greet someone. The greeting literally wishes for good health, when we say ya=γεια=υγεία = Hygeia = (good) Health. It is like going to the pub and say to everyone, have a good health instead of a generic Hello or Hi which is a vague greeting without a specific meaning. In modern Greek we also say χαίρετε, which is χαίρε in plural, to be inclusive of everyone present in a meeting.
@@Seventh7Art Ancient/classical Greek isn't modern Greek, and norms+greetings differed, so there is no need to gatekeep here. What is 'real greek' culture exactly? I find that ironic since most of modern Greek culture is a diverse mix and incorporation of many different regional varieties (due to the population exchange), regions which by the way weren't even greek during classical times (ie Asia Minor). For instance, the music genre Rebetiko (popular in macedonia) originated from asia-minor and spunoff from turkish music, so much for being 'real greek' and Pontus wasn't even greek in classical times. I was in Macedonia, and know half the population descends from the 1923 exchange, mostly from Pontus, so it's not as simple as saying they are descendants of the ancient Macedonians just due to occupying the same land and speaking a language long descended from it, when their ancestors weren't even greek at that time and their culture was shaped by living millennia in the pontus mountains. I think this is a fair point to raise as an example, to prove that modern Greek (language and people) are vastly different from ancient Greeks, which should be considered moreso a different civilization entirely.
He knows about the Classical Attic Greek and later κοινή Greek pronunciations from researching the written testimony of ancient Greek and Roman grammarians and inscriptions in Pompeii.
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Never played a Civ game, but I must say that I very much adore the idea of letting historical characters speak their actual language. If the pronunciation is slightly off doesn't really disturb me much, it's the principle that counts.
I never played a Civ game, either, but when I saw a clip compilation I was beyond amazed that Empress Maria Theresia actually spoke German with a Viennese upper class accent. Presumably, it would have actually sounded a bit different in her day, but I'm not sure if we can actually reconstruct that with any confidence and the fact that they went to the length of making it that specific in the first place is already commendable.
Given that he's most likely indeed a Greek speaker, I'm more inclined to say (most of) the specific mistakes made were due to the direction given. A modern native speaker would make different ones (at least I would, but I'm no degenerate Athenian). Except for the pitch, we lost that.
Well said.
Α καλά... Ναι ρε ,τύπος είπε : εν τάις ψυκάις😂😂
Άσε ρε φίλε δεν έχει ιδέα να μιλάει ελληνικά.
Degenerate Athenian?
One of the reasons I love the civilization games is the little portraits of different cultures. It's such a great little spark to ignite that curiosity to learn more.
Honestly, the issues with aspirated consonants while employing a native Greek speaker could have easily been circumvented by going for a Cypriot/Rhodian/etc speaker specifically. Phonetically you get all the good stuff of the Greek cadence, and you also have familiarity with pronouncing all of the aspirated consonants. Plus they would have no issues with geminate consonants either.
Just a few days ago a new DLC for Age of Empires 2 was released, where Athenians, Archaemenids and Spartans were added with completely new language files. They appear to try speaking a archaic greek from around the 5th century. Could you have a look at these as well? :)
I am guessing the Linguists they asked used Erasmian no? Those mistakes are common in it I think.
Edit: That's what you basically said at the end 😬
Exactly so.
Yes. They must have trained the voice actors to use the Erasmian pronunciation instead of the Classical Attic pronunciation.
I love your pronunciation, it just makes me want to study ancient Greek. Alas, I lack the time and energy for it, thank you for your videos.
You love what😂😂 his pronunciation is totally wrong...
@@EmpireOfLEMBERGI don't remember asking for your opinion.
@@freetongue Don't remember I said any opinions, rather than facts, because i am greek so maaaybe i know better my language right 🙂
Can't wait to see your toxic reply now.
Thanks! Hopefully I'll produce more and better content in Ancient Greek in the near future.
It’s really interesting to me that in the end, at 20:01, you seem to say “dhank you” (or even “dank you”) instead of “thank you”, because someone told me that the th sound is changing in English.
Sound interesting. Could you elaborate further?
@
Maybe because th requires too much energy, I don’t know. But I would expect tank you, not dank you.
I heard an affricate of d then voiced th
It’s an idiosyncrasy of my speech; it’s wide-spread in English speakers around the world; about 10% of us pronounce thank in such a way. I don’t believe it’s a part of a general change.
@
Thanks for your reply. It’s the first time I notice it, and I’ve watched hours of you speaking. The person who told me that also told me that no Roman used cases in speech, only in writing, so… The sad thing is: she teaches that to university students.
Hey man, you seem a bit tired in this video. Hope you're doing well, the work you do is inspirational.
I usually only have time to record these late at night lately. I am quite well! Thanks for asking.
Nunc dēmum περὶ Περικλέως pelliculam fēcistī! Optimē et grātiās tibi agō!
While I admire your love and skill in Ancient Greek. I really don’t think video game companies have the time/money to make these things good.
For them this is a tiny part, the fact that they even tried is worth appreciating.
I disagree. These games cost hundreds of millions to make, and finding someone qualified and willing to advise on the pronounciation of a few sentences is basically free in comparison. That said, I agree that even trying is laudable.
There are definitely worse offenders of butchering ancient languages in videogames: Ubisoft! Where the Latin in Origins is nonsensical and there is more Modern Greek than Ancient Greek in Odyssey… it’s just so obvious that they used Google translate
Hey Luke! Could you make a video about the difference between Attic Greek and Koiné Greek? I've searched all over the internet and never found a good source expoing the differences between them. And one question if I might ask, do you think it's a good idea to learn Modern Greek to then learn Attic Greek?
Hey - I teach Classics at secondary school level - it entirely depends on what your goals are. Like if you’re learning Greek to read ancient sources, just learn Ancient Greek (also, Attic doesn’t get you all of the sources, but most of them - so think about what you wanna be able to read.) If you want to go to Greece and interact with Greeks and modern Greek culture then learn Modern Greek. Don’t learn Ancient Greek - they don’t like it!
Does knowing Modern Greek help you learn Ancient Greek? Yes and no. Yes, because they’re directly related - so the words and alphabet will be similar, but the grammar of Ancient Greek will be totally alien. Plus, if you’re learning them both at the same time - from scratch - things will get really confusing really quickly (it would be like learning Latin and Italian at the same time) and it’s easy to get them mixed up. I generally think it’s much better for your learning, sanity and enjoyment to just learn one and really stick with it.
@@Nikelaos_Khristianos Thank you for taking your time to answer me!
From a modern Greek's perspective. Learning modern Greek to then learn ancient Greek, is like, learning one instrument, to then learn another similar one. Bongos and drums for example. It will make learning the second instrument much easier. But it will also make it more confusing because you will have to unlearn and relearn stuff. You will have learned two instruments instead of one, for different occasions. But you will have put double the effort.
The good think is that there are a lot of yt videos teaching modern Greek. But is it really worth it if you don't plan on staying in the country? Be wary that it's a hard, but fun, language.
It's up to you!
@@Nikelaos_Khristianos You are probably misinformed, what we don't like in Greece, is people who have been taught even at this time, the Erasmian and at the same time trying to speak Greek with a western European or American accent, which have the worse result cause it doesn't sound at all like ancient Greek and or also modern Greek. Now about modern and ancient differences in Greek, let me ask you, is it better to learn the Erasmian and have no real knowledge or learn modern Greek and just learn the differences? I also disagree that is the same with the differences between Latin and Italian, ancient Greek vocabulary is very close to modern and especially for those who were taught the "καθαρεύουσα" modern Greek (aka the older Greeks), there are many grammar similarities too.
He should stop claiming to know greek because he has butchered the greek language on every video...
He definitely can't make videos at all...
I love videos like this! I'm curious though, when he says "in time/ en khronoi" did that expression exist? It sure doesn't in some romance languages. Could be an anachronism. (see what I did there?)
It feels wrong to me; I haven’t found a precise equivalent in the ancient texts after a long search, so I’m inclined to believe it’s a mistake.
In Italian "in tempo" only means "[just] in time [for]", never "in [due] time" or "overtime". In French the corresponding expression to the Italian one is constructed as "at time".
In Italian "in tempo" only means "[just] in time [for]", never "in [due] time" or "overtime". In French the corresponding expression to the Italian one is constructed as "at time".
En khroNOIS. It s dative 😊
FUNNY how the utuber who claims he speaks greek couldn't notice this but whatever.
You probably mean EN KAIRW - Εν καιρώ
Congratulations on your video, from which I can understand what the Attic accent was like.
💛💛💛💛👍👍👍👍
2:22 forgetting your own native tongues pronunciation, this is your brain on linguistics
"...pronunciation of a word that's not native"
What's your point exactly?
@@MonoTunez just a simple joke my friend. English does have some silly rules, notably words starting with X, wouldn’t you agree?
@@NoahMReed1 Yeah, English is weird lol
Sorry, I thought you were serious with your comment 😅
I would never survive in in ancient Greece if I ever transported in the past...
Pericles is also someone that an old Swedish Dance Music band is named after, Perikles.
Maybe the problem isn't the coach or the instructor, maybe the actor required more training time and it wasn't possible because of a deadline or something, you know for people who don't have aspirated consonants in their mother tongue have extremely hard time pronouncing them correctly. And maybe the coach had to be ok with the progress they made there due to time and resources. I agree with you we should blame the entire video game company 😂😂
Actually there is nothing wrong with using modern phonology to render ancient version scripts. Hōjō Tokimune of Japan also speaks literary Japanese with modern pronunciation, which is the standard way in Classical Japanese classes.
13:41 Are you a 100% sure about this??? Here is a quote from Aristotle's On Plants, 819a : aεἰς τὸ γεννᾶν ἐπιτήδειοι ἄνθη, ὡς ἐπὶ τῶν ἰτεῶν. τινὲς δὲ καὶ ἄνθη καὶ καρποὺς ἐν τοῖς δένδροις, καὶ 40 τἆλλ᾿ ὁπόσα γεννῶνται ἐκ σπέρματος, καὶ ὅσα περικαλύπτουσιν αὐτά.
In the Athēnāze textbook that we both have, δένδροις is the dative plural. I've looked it up on Wiktionary and other online dictionaries and they all say the same thing. Where does this δένδρεσιν come from?
Yes, 100% sure; δένδροις only occurs twice in Classical Attic; once in Xenophon and once in Plato, which you can find by searching TLG:
XENOPHON Hist. Anabasis {0032.006} (5-4 B.C.) Book 4 chapter 7 section 9 line 4
ὀπισθοφυλάκων λοχαγοὶ ὄντες, καὶ ἄλλοι δέ, ἐφέστασαν
ἔξω τῶν δένδρων· οὐ γὰρ ἦν ἀσφαλῶς ἐν τοῖς δένδροις
(10) ἑστάναι πλέον ἢ τὸν ἕνα λόχον. ἔνθα δὴ Καλλίμαχος
PLATO Phil. Protagoras {0059.022} (5-4 B.C.) Stephanus page 334 section a line 7
ἵπποις δέ· τὰ δὲ βουσὶν μόνον, τὰ δὲ κυσίν· τὰ δέ γε τούτων
μὲν οὐδενί, δένδροις δέ· τὰ δὲ τοῦ δένδρου ταῖς μὲν ῥίζαις
ἀγαθά, ταῖς δὲ βλάσταις πονηρά, οἷον καὶ ἡ κόπρος πάντων
Meanwhile, δένδρεσι(ν) is much more common in Classical Attic by a ratio of 7:1; a few examples, including those of Plato and Xenophon:
XENOPHON Hist. Anabasis {0032.006} (5-4 B.C.) Book 4 chapter 8 section 2 line 4
βαλλεν ὁ ὁρίζων, δι’ οὗ ἔδει διαβῆναι. ἦν δὲ οὗτος δασὺς
δένδρεσι παχέσι μὲν οὔ, πυκνοῖς δέ. ταῦτ’ ἐπεὶ προσῆλθον
οἱ Ἕλληνες ἔκοπτον, σπεύδοντες ἐκ τοῦ χωρίου ὡς τάχιστα
XENOPHON Hist. Oeconomicus {0032.003} (5-4 B.C.) Chapter 4 section 14 line 3
ἔνθα γε διατρίβει αὐτός, καὶ ὅπως ὡς κάλλιστα κατεσκευα-
σμένοι ἔσονται οἱ παράδεισοι ἐπιμελεῖσθαι δένδρεσι καὶ τοῖς
(15) ἄλλοις ἅπασι καλοῖς ὅσα ἡ γῆ φύει. Φασὶ δέ τινες, ἔφη
PLATO Phil. Leges {0059.034} (5-4 B.C.) Stephanus page 625 section b line 4
ἀνάπαυλαι κατὰ τὴν ὁδόν, ὡς εἰκός, πνίγους ὄντος τὰ νῦν,
ἐν τοῖς ὑψηλοῖς δένδρεσίν εἰσι σκιαραί, καὶ ταῖς ἡλικίαις
πρέπον ἂν ἡμῶν εἴη τὸ διαναπαύεσθαι πυκνὰ ἐν αὐταῖς,
PLATO Phil. Epigrammata {0059.039} (5-4 B.C.) Book 9 epigram 3 line 5
κέκλασμαι πυκιναῖς χερμάσι βαλλομένη·
δένδρεσιν εὐκάρποις οὐδὲν πλέον· ἦ γὰρ ἔγωγε (5)
δυσδαίμων ἐς ἐμὴν ὕβριν ἐκαρποφόρουν.
PLATO Phil. Epigrammata {0059.041} (5-4 B.C.) Epigram 32 line 5
κέκλασμαι πυκιναῖς χερμάσι βαλλομένη.
δένδρεσιν εὐκάρποισ’ οὐδὲν πλέον· ἦ γὰρ ἔγωγε (5)
δυσδαίμων ἐς ἐμὴν ὕβριν ἐκαρποφόρουν.
ARISTOPHANES Comic. Aves {0019.024} (5-4 B.C.) Line 1066
ἐκ κάλυκος αὐξανόμενον γένυσι παμφάγοις @1 (1065)
δένδρεσί τ’ ἐφημμένον
καρπὸν ἀποβόσκεται.
THUCYDIDES Hist. Historiae {0003.001} (5 B.C.) Book 2 chapter 75 section 1 line 2
(1) Τοσαῦτα ἐπιθειάσας καθίστη ἐς πόλεμον τὸν στρατόν,
καὶ πρῶτον μὲν περιεσταύρωσαν αὐτοὺς τοῖς δένδρεσιν ἃ
ἔκοψαν, τοῦ μηδένα ἐπεξιέναι, ἔπειτα χῶμα ἔχουν πρὸς
This leads me to believe that the δένδροις, once in Plato and once in Xenophon, may have been copying errors.
Aristotle writes in Attic, but his works are not considered to be *Classical* Attic. That doesn't mean they're bad, they're simply not as close to the language of Pericles, which is reason I raised this complaint in the video.
In a sense, Athenaze is well-named since, while it takes place in Classical Athens, it has a lot of non-Attic usages in it, sometimes more typical of Koine, other times just pure barbarisms. The fact that it uses the grammatically regular δένδροις and υἱοί instead of Classical Attic δένδρεσι(ν) and υἱεῖς testifies to that fact.
in your opening introduction, does that greek phrase mean something like "hello philosophers" ?
Yes! Great job, Daniel!
Have you seen the new trailer for civ 7? Charlemagne speaks in the beginning (old high German?), do you know someone to recommend making a video about that? 😀
Edit: also super interesting video as always! 😊
He should speak Old Frankish, which is distinguished from Old High German via the High German Consonant Shift
@@nagili4 He should speak some form of Latin, because that's the language they used at court. Probably he could still speak Frankish, but that was not the official language. Laws were in Latin, Placita were in Latin, Mass was in Latin. He also understood the very vulgar Latin "pappa", from an Italian source. No source that I know of mentions interpreters.
Have you played AOE2 Battle For Greece DLC
there is a rumor that a streamer from the south of Italy wants to play vs you with him being Rome and you Being Greek. and streaming it somehow.
I was kinda hoping for a bit more language analysis…. Not just pronunciation, but I know you’re passionate about it and it’s your video so 🤷♂️
Isn't it supposed to be προσχωρεῖν instead of προσχώρειν?
It is! Typo on my part. Good catch!
Hi Polymathy, do you know any good resources to learn biblical greek?
What you call "biblical greek" is actually koine greek. "Biblical greek" is a modern term invented by clerics of Protestant churches or denominations and in Greece we never use this. In our schools and universities, this term is not mentioned either.
ego admiro tua forma de splicare de forma amicable et comprensible ilos secritos delas linguas
The voice actor was really good. This is how most Greeks would pronounce ancient Greek with ancient Greek pronunciation.
Reproducing ancient Greek pronunciation is hard for modern Greeks and needs some training, especially the aspirated consonants and the diphthongs.
The result is not perfect, but it is quite satisfactory. It is just a game, not a course in Ancient Greek.
That’s nicely said.
I agree. Everything is correct except the voice actor's pronunciation of ει as εϊ instead of a long ι and not distinguishing the long and short vowels and the pitch accents.
You sound a lil bit like Vlad from Magicka when speaking greek XD
Given the evidence for extreme iotacism in Classical Attic that you yourself made a two-hour video about, I don't think it's such a problem that he pronounces υ as a /i/, per se. However, I understand the attempt was to reconstruct a more conservative Attic phonology rather than the more "vulgar" innovative dialect developing somewhere around that time that was ioticising even the ε that the makers of this video game would've known nothing about.
Right, the existence of the Vulgar Attic phonology is not in dispute for me; but it is attested about a century after Pericles, according to Teodorsson's analysis.
Thank you for reminding me to recheck the game files cause hairs on EVERY leader won't show on my pc. Cool video also
Luke, why is ei written as ei?
Luke wanted to point out that the voice actor for the role of Pericles was using the Erasmian pronunciation and that he pronounces ει as "ei" instead of "i".
@ yes I’m aware but why did the Greeks write a strict monophthong as ei, while attic spelling writes an epsilon (just as it does for the phonemes /ɛː/ /e/ /eː/)
@@wodzisaww.5500 It's probably to distinguish the vowel qualities [e:] and [ε:] in the orthography in the same way that ου and ω were originally [o:] and [ɔ:] until the 5th century BC.
@ Yes, but why is that the case orthographically. Attic spelling did not use this diphthongal spelling
Long story short, the former diphthong had become a monophthong [e:] by the classical period, so at some point every [e:] was written even though it might not have originated from a diphthong.
It's kind of the same with by the way.
Nothing but embarrassing that a big game can't get it right
12:43 Really? If that was the case, why did that get lost and go back to normal gamma later on?
Good question! The short answer is that it didn’t: it was restored as a cultism in certain Modern Greek words. There are similar cultisms in Italian and Spanish from Latin.
@polyMATHY_Luke Interesting! So essentially it's just like the sequences /mv/ and /nð/ which emerged in modern Greek in the pronunciation of cultisms even though they never existed historically
@@polyMATHY_Luke As far as I am aware, the sequence is pronounced /ɣm/ in all contexts, and /ŋm/ isn't compatible with modern Greek phonotactics, with the velar nasal appearing only as a pre-velar allophone. Or am I misunderstanding you? Like, what other pronunciation does have in modern Greek?
@andreasm5770 What do you mean by that? /mv/ and /nð/ aren't special, right? It's just that AG's voiced plosives became fricatives in MG, in all contexts, so whether there's a nasal before doesn't make a difference. Like, ενδιαφέρον is /en.ði.a'fe.ron/ in MG but /en.di.a.pʰé.ron/ in AG.
Wiktionary seems to suggest that the (possibly phonemic) velar nasal in Ancient Greek simply turned into a velar fricative in that context. My _guess_ is that since the status of the velar nasal as a phoneme was probably ambiguous even to the Ancient Greeks, no specific consonant grapheme was chosen for it, instead gamma doubling as both the voiced velar plosive and the velar nasal. In fact we get to see this in words like εγγράφω, where the first gamma is a nasal and the second one a plosive, or in the word εγκρατής, where gamma is used in lieu of a non-existent velar nasal grapheme.
Thoughts?
@@polyMATHY_LukeIs that why in certain dialects, like the one in Crete, they say "πράμα" instead of "πράγμα" ?
@@kkyrezisProbably.
They're making the 7th edition of the game, could you please get hired by them to coach the voice actors. 😅
If only! Let them know I’m available
@@polyMATHY_Luke ruclips.net/video/UDBQP7S8w-E/видео.htmlsi=X-a8o5EkGSW5MpTx&t=35 Ah well, apparently they have already recorded Augustus, so might be too late. Well new material for the channel to review. 😁
Now Basil II and Alexander the Great from CIV VI remain
I find it a bit frustrating to realize how I learnt everything with the wrong pronunciation, even though my books tried to teach us a « prononciation restituée » (sorry I don’t have the words in English). I have it all wrong. 😢 Bad habits taken early, hard to break.
Pas de soucis! This may help: ruclips.net/video/ge-mq6ZnceU/видео.htmlsi=bY6OYHpthdvl5DD-
@ thank you Luke, your video is very clear, though I’m having a hard time re-learning the diphtongues, especially the ei (if I understand well, it is a closed sound between the French è and the French i ?). I’ve purchased your recordings of the first verses of the Iliad a few months ago, really enjoyed it, and now that I want to get back on track with my Ancient Greek learning, I’m confident your recordings will also help me getting used to this « new »pronunciation. Thank you for your content. Have a nice day !
I must say I'm actually quite pleased with this rendition, because it's recognisable and actually sounds like somewhat natural speech despite of the inconsistencies you mentioned - whereas many takes on ancient languages suffer severely from directions like "make these vowels long", as people tend to make them a good mile long in consequence, which can be even further from authentic pronunciation as no language has ever sounded anything like that.
19:08 "neninekas" or "nenikekas"?
@@BrandonBoardman You sure? According to Wiktionary the word νενῑ́κηκᾰς should indeed be correct (perfect participle of νικάω, "to win"). But I don't really know Ancient Greek (I love out-pedanting people though).
@@milkenjoyer14.Luke must have mispronounced it because of the reduplication.
Yes! What a silly error on my part. I shouldn’t record these so late at night when my brain stops working. Good catch.
Eritne tibi cōpia dē Alexandrō Magnō pelliculae faciundae cum is quoque in hōc lūdō exstat.
At least they tried doing actual classical Greek. In CIV 6 Polish leader speaks fake archaic Polish, basically modern pronunciation with some slightly unusual but still modern grammar. And the acting is terrible which makes it even worse.
Wow!
Ranieri said one year ago in a reply to a comment "While I appreciate the comment, the problem here is that you seem to believe Modern Greek is the same language as Ancient Greek. It's not. They're very different languages, even more different than Latin and Italian when it comes to pronunciation. I'd recommend reading the books I cited"
Let's see what linguists say. Modern greek has 0.77 phonetic similarity and 0.899 rate of retention per 1000 years to classical Greek while Italian has 0.63 and 0.798 to Classical Latin respectively.[1]
Next time, do better research and when you make an assertation, try to prove it.
[1] Heggarty, Paul (2000) Quantifying change over time in phonetics. In: Colin Renfrew, April McMahon, and Larry Trask (eds.) Time Depth in Historical Linguistics. Cambridge, UK: McDonald Institute for Archeological Research. p. 553
The study you cite affirms the obvious conclusion implicit in the study’s results: Ancient Greek, while the origin of Modern Greek, is a different language from Modern Greek. Indeed, this study shows this to be an unavoidable conclusion.
@@polyMATHY_Luke And modern english is even more distant from the anglo-saxon language which sounded like a german dialect. Why don't you make a video about this topic as well? Besides, it's not all greek or latin in this world.
@@DimitrisTziounis Maybe because no one is out there claiming that Modern English has barely changed since the Old English period. Or more probably, because he specializes in Ancient Greek and Latin, not in Old English. More importantly, why are you perceiving that statement as an attack on the Greek language? Languages change, and Greek is no exception. There's no inherent value in a language being more conservative (or more innovative for that manner)
People also change. Modern Greeks are very different, half of Macedonia is Pontic Greek for instance, changing the culture and demography. Pontus was not even Greek in classical times. Modern Greeks like to think they are direct descendants to Hellas, the language and people and achievements. It’s not entirely so.
@@Ethan-qo9rx Obviously you are another Balkan troll. You should get a life instead of expressing envy and jealousy in every given chance.
❤
Perkles may have been a good politician, but not a good person.
During the period of its political dominance, Athens developed into a 'polis tyrannos', which proudly oppressed its allies. Do you really think a democracy need leaders? 😛
That’s a very fair assessment. I don’t think he expressed admiration for Pericles in this video; I’m pretty skeptical of ancient leaders and demagogues, while they were lionized in their own times.
games need good advisors, come on, we are in the era of social media just ask polymathy about it , at least in American english, Latin, and ancient greek...i hate historical errors, come on...
Xαίρε does not mean hello, neither in ancient, nor in modern Greek. Hello means hi, not something specific. Χαίρε is not the same as hello. Χαίρε literally means... rejoice, be happy, enjoy etc. not just hello, which is a generic term to greet someone without wishing something specifically, like χαιρε does!
You're mistaking literal etymology with practical meaning. Just as we say "hello!" as a common greeting in English, Ancient Greek speakers said χαῖρε! in the same situations. It does indeed mean "rejoice," but that literal meaning is not what is implied with the English force of "rejoice" in the context of a salutation. Indeed, the way that Ancient Greek letters begin is Λούκιος Ἑβδομάδωι χαίρειν, which is literally "Luke to Seventh to rejoice," except that "to rejoice" is not the correct translation in this context, despite that being a correct translation in other contexs and that being the etymological meaning; Λούκιος Ἑβδομάδωι χαίρειν means "Luke to Seventh greetings" or "Luke to Seventh salutations."
In English we say, "tell Seventh I said hi." In Ancient Greek we say, Ἕβδομον κέλευε χαίρειν. In Modern Greek, χαῖρε! as a greeting is used in imitation of the ancient language.
@@polyMATHY_Luke I respectfully disagree and it shows that you lack knowledge of real Greek culture: When we use a similar term to χαιρε, which is γεια from Hygeia = health, we do not just greet someone. The greeting literally wishes for good health, when we say ya=γεια=υγεία = Hygeia = (good) Health. It is like going to the pub and say to everyone, have a good health instead of a generic Hello or Hi which is a vague greeting without a specific meaning. In modern Greek we also say χαίρετε, which is χαίρε in plural, to be inclusive of everyone present in a meeting.
@@Seventh7Art Ancient/classical Greek isn't modern Greek, and norms+greetings differed, so there is no need to gatekeep here. What is 'real greek' culture exactly? I find that ironic since most of modern Greek culture is a diverse mix and incorporation of many different regional varieties (due to the population exchange), regions which by the way weren't even greek during classical times (ie Asia Minor). For instance, the music genre Rebetiko (popular in macedonia) originated from asia-minor and spunoff from turkish music, so much for being 'real greek' and Pontus wasn't even greek in classical times. I was in Macedonia, and know half the population descends from the 1923 exchange, mostly from Pontus, so it's not as simple as saying they are descendants of the ancient Macedonians just due to occupying the same land and speaking a language long descended from it, when their ancestors weren't even greek at that time and their culture was shaped by living millennia in the pontus mountains. I think this is a fair point to raise as an example, to prove that modern Greek (language and people) are vastly different from ancient Greeks, which should be considered moreso a different civilization entirely.
Did Metatron get you on to this?
I’ve actually been doing these for years: ruclips.net/video/JlsSWYlzY6k/видео.htmlsi=Y-xj6BNrOii84oAz
So when are you going to work on Gothic, out grandfather language, we are Diets not Greek or Roman...do not skip our own roots...
what are you talking about? Gothic has no living descendant languages.
How do you know he is wrong..were you in ancient Greece to know how was pronounce?
He knows about the Classical Attic Greek and later κοινή Greek pronunciations from researching the written testimony of ancient Greek and Roman grammarians and inscriptions in Pompeii.
It's like asking. "How do you know the Peloponnesian war happened, you weren't there".