If you want to learn to read and speak Ancient Greek, Latin, Biblical Hebrew, or Old English in fun, immersive classes, sign up for lessons at AncientLanguage.com 🏺📖 How do you sound out Ancient Greek words if you don't know the alphabet? While learning the Greek alphabet an Ancient Greek pronunication isn't hard, it's not as easy as dealing with a language that uses our Roman or Latin alphabetical letters. This video is an excellent first lesson in Ancient Greek, especially if you've never studied it at all before, and shows you that it's possible to start sounding out Ancient Greek words and sentences, even from advanced literature, on your first day. Books to learn about Ancient Greek Pronunciation: Vox Graeca, by W. Sidney Allen amzn.to/3FsiCT6 Vox Graeca, Η προφορά της ελληνικής την κλασική εποχή, by W. Sidney Allen (Modern Greek translation) ins.web.auth.gr/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=690:vox-graeca-the-pronunciation-of-classical-greek&catid=93&Itemid=270&lang=en Greek: A History of the Language and its People, Geoffrey Horrocks amzn.to/3FXYedR The Pronunciation of Greek and Latin, Edgar Howard Sturtevant amzn.to/3W4nt45 The Pronunciation of New Testament Greek here, by Benjamin Kantor amzn.to/3QEkuz1 🦂 Support my work on Patreon: www.patreon.com/LukeRanieri 📚 Luke Ranieri Audiobooks: luke-ranieri.myshopify.com 🤠 Take my course LATIN UNCOVERED on StoryLearning, including my original Latin adventure novella "Vir Petasātus" learn.storylearning.com/lu-promo?affiliate_id=3932873 🦂 Sign up for my Latin Pronunciation & Conversation series on Patreon: www.patreon.com/posts/54058196 🏛 Ancient Greek in Action · Free Greek Lessons: ruclips.net/p/PLU1WuLg45SixsonRdfNNv-CPNq8xUwgam 👨🏫 My Lingua Latina Per Se Illustrata playlist · Free Latin Lessons: ruclips.net/video/j7hd799IznU/видео.html ☕ Support my work with PayPal: paypal.me/lukeranieri 📚 Luke Ranieri Audiobooks: luke-ranieri.myshopify.com Join the channel to support it: ruclips.net/channel/UCRllohBcHec7YUgW6HfltLAjoin 🌅 ScorpioMartianus apud Instagram: instagram.com/lukeranieri/ 🦁 Legio XIII Latin Language Podcast: ruclips.net/user/LegioXIII 🎙 Hundres of hours of Latin & Greek audio: lukeranieri.com/audio 👕 Merch: teespring.com/stores/scorpiomartianus 🦂 www.ScorpioMartianus.com 🦅 www.LukeRanieri.com #greekalphabet #ancientgreek #ancientgreece 00:00 Intro 00:19 Letters Virtually Identical to Latin Equilavents 01:27 PSA for Modern Greek Speakers 03:40 Similar Letters with Caveats or Oddities 05:32 False Friends 06:09 More False Friends 08:23 Unfamiliar Letter Shapes 14:31 The Rest of the Bare Basics 15:41 Let's Sound Out Real Ancient Greek Sentences! 18:30 Squirrel & Fox
I cannot agree with the pronounciation of χ , θ and φ. and . The differentiation with the non exasperated versions is not prominent enough. The χ should be closer to a pulled hhhh basically a much more prominent dasia tonos. Example Herod or History, it should sound like a pulled spitting sound . For the θ the sound should be the Th yes but it sound sound like Thesis or Theodor not a T-h and for φ it should sound the same as F in english. These letters where added in order to represent these more prominent sounds that the non exasperated versions cannot. Making them sound only slightly different from the original letter defeats their purpose entirely because it does not cover the linguistic needs nor the total lingustic spectrum of sounds the human mouth can produce. Lastly for the β being μπ (b) and ζ being a zd is also something I cannot agree with because the D sound used the ντ since when spoken fast it does make the D sound. So evolutionary wise for a language it would not make sense to miss the english Ve sound. Example versus when B sound is made with μπ when spoken fast. Example εμπειρία (εν-πείρα) when spoken sounds ebiria not em--peiria. Ebrosthios (εν-προσθιος) --> εμπρόσθιος. Some example that do not align with this pronounciation would be έκ-φρασης.(the tonos is not accurate I know). If φ is a pe-he and not a ph/f εκ-φρασης would basically sound εκ-πρασης (ekprasis) when spoken fast. Which is horendous to listen too and we know historically languages often use different letters in order to make a word sound more pleasing and in order to be spoken faster. Another example is εχθρός would sound ektros when spoken fast. Which suffers from the same problem. Φωνή (pe-he-one) instead of phone Overall this pronounciation is better than the Erasmian but when we think about how a language evolves to represent all the sounds of the human mouth accurately leaving crucial sounds such as hissing(hhhee sound that cats make), blowing (foooooo), interdental lisping (Thhhh) and so on. I do not disagree with the vowel pronounciation or how the diphthogues are written but with letters I mentioned above I will disagree greatly. Even the word diphthogue would sound dip-(h)-t(h)ogue or diptogue if spoken fast with this pronouciation which is not really something that would evolve in a language.
Thank you, dear Luke, very much for this great video! The restored classical attic pronunciation you show us here is in my opinion the right pronunciation to learn Ancient Greek, because it becomes easier to someone to learn the irregular verbs!
Though many English speakers are not conscious of this, we also have aspirated and unaspirated voiceless plosives. Compare the p of pain (aspirated) with that of Spain (unaspirated), the t of take (aspirated) with that of stake (unaspirated) and the k of Kate (aspirated) with that of skate (unaspirated) (or the c of car with that of scar).
Thank you so much for your videos ☺ I am trying to do something similar, but it will take some time, until I get there. Teaching ancient languages, while talking about their culture and history - it will take quite some time, but eventually I will get to the point, where I will teach those beautiful languages (and your channel will be a crucial part for my research and study ground - can't wait, until I reach this part in my journey.☺
Great video, I was waiting for this! I learned Ancient Greek in school for 4 years with Erasmian Pronunciation in a German speaking country (Austria), thus it never sounded right for me. I was told about the lengthening, but was never shown. Big surprise for me that Zeta is actually Zdeta! No one told me about the tone, and the circonflex was just a funny marking no one could explain properly. r and rr where realized at the soft palate like in German and not distinguished (same in Latin), aspiration completely wrong (Austrians actually aspirate much less then Germans, it's quite easy for me now to pronounce kappa). It would have made my learning experience so much better if we had a correct, distinguishing and meaningful pronunciation. Thank you so much for sharing this here!
I used to study Greek and Latin at university a long time ago but lasted only a semester and a half. I remember my Latin teacher being a great fan of the poetry of Catullus ( odi at amo ) and my Greek teacher reading out loud an excerpt from Homer which sounded like a great music to my ears despite the fact that I understood nothing. I do enjoy your videos. Luke, what do you think about Jhumpa Lahiri who switched to writing in Italian. I personally consider her a great inspiration for learning Italian or to be more specific relearning it. Now your channels are also a great inspiration and maybe a day will come that I take up learning Greek and Latin again. I got the textbooks already 😊. Keep doing good work.
Ευγε και συγχαρητήρια for your modern Greek, Λουκά! ❤ One funny remark: "Δραματικά" as you used it is an Anglicism! In modern Greek, it would rather be ριζικά / εντελώς
Thanks so much!! I just discovered your channel and I love it!! I would like to ask how could I learn much more ancient Greek vocabulary such as concepts I appreciate your help and just to say this is such a precious content channel to keep learning Thank you!!😊
Zulu also has different plain and aspirated consonants. An effect of this on English is the name of the Tugela River (English) - biggest river in KwaZulu Natal province, whose actual name is uThukela. ("h" indicates aspiration - but they could've used the Greek alphabet for some, it would seem.
Hey, I just realised something. Thukela became Tugela in English. It's the same thing that happened to the surname *Thakur! It became English Tagore. This pattern is too obvious to ignore, and it really makes aspirating word initial /p/, /t/, /k/ an integral part of the English language and the fact that normal English speakers can't easily distinguish between /g/ and an unaspirated /k/. * On a side note, the "Th" here is a retroflex consonant.
@@warrior_of_the_most_high Thanks. I think you might be right there. There's at very least some "light aspiration" that gets taken up by the vowel or something. And yes, if there were none, English speakers would hear the /k/ in a word like Thukela, and not something voiced like a g.
Love this! I still really prefer the sound of somosotene Lucian and will probably continue to practice that. But this seems super useful especially so that one could consume content that is in some form of Erasmian and it be a little more comprehensible
Love your stuff, but just to clarify something you said about Old Persian; it was the language spoken during the first Persian empire, the Achaemind dynasty, so it would have been contemporary with the Classical Attic period, up until around the second empire or the Sasanian empire, by which time the language had evolved into Middle Persian. I live the idea of teaching Old Persian through Classical Greek as I'm sure the two languages have many similarities, both being Ancient Indo European languages!
I love the squirrel at the end too 😍😁 Thank you Luke! Do you have any future plans about reading Λόγος like you did with LLPSI Familia Romana by any chance? 😊 Thank you very much for all your efforts again.
I find it really hard to distinguish voiced and unaspirated unvoiced. One thing I like about the correlation of aspiration with unvoiced in English is you can still differentiate them while whispering. But it makes it so hard to hear and make the proper sounds in other languages
That's a great question. The simple answer is that Classical Attic is the ideal paedagogical pronunciation, since the spelling system was designed to represent *it*, and not later Koine pronunciations. One can definitely become a fluent reader using Koine-era pronunciations (I myself became fluent using Samosatene Lucian Pronunciation, then switched to Romaic Lucian Pronunication, and then came back to Classical Attic Pronunciation which I found to be more efficient and easier than I had given it credit for). So there are many factors here. Unless one has a strong reason to avoid it, I would encourage Classical Attic Pronunciation first. But there are many paths, and I stand as living testament to that.
13:30 I thought lambda is λάμβδα with "μ"? Isn't it supposed to be from the same Phoenician root as Arabic "lam" and Hebrew "lamed" which both have the "m" sound?
Right; interestingly, in Attic this μ goes away, and is attested thus; later the μ appears to be restored from different Greek dialects contributing to Koine.
Please ignore the upcoming comments from Greeks saying that Ancient Greek was not pronounced like that, its our educational system to be blaimed. Greek here with Bachelors in Classics and Msc in papyrology and greek linguistics.
@@dimitri1072 Every single video about Ancient Greek on youtube has numerous comments like "You foreigners don't know how to speak our language, this is not Greek!!!". 🙂
Good to hear you have credentials but how come his reading is closer to an English pronunciation than to a modern Greek and somehow this is more probable to be correct. How about z and b and u pronunciatiins. All the relevant books he's citing in the comments are by American authors. So if with your credentials you confirm that what he says comforms with the literature great but how on earth happens that modern Greek are farther away from sounding similar than the modern English pronunciation is (e.g. b read as been instead of vee)
@@EvangelosDimitriou It's very simple. "B" is pronounced as "B" in English and many other languages exactly because it used to be pronounced that way in Greek at the time this symbol was adopted for those languages. Greek pronunciation changed. I am a native Russian speaker: in Russian, B is pronounced as V because at the time the Cyrillic alphabet was created for Slavic languages, B was already pronounced as V in Greek.
@@DmitryKrivitsky And the phenomenon is reversed in modern Spanish. Words beginning with the letter are pronounced /b/ like in the word “vamos.” They’re both labial consonants so it’s just natural that one slides into the other after centuries.
@@warrior_of_the_most_high exactly, try to pronounce it like that and you choke and you start coughing! And this is the first word of the second line of the Odyssey meaning wandered.
@@DemetriosKongas Sorry... but I don't choke a bit while pronouncing it. I've already pronounced it multiple times now while writing this comment. And I'm sorry again, instead of /plaŋ.kʰtʰɛː/, I should've divided the syllables as /plaŋkʰ.tʰɛː/. It's easier that way. And if my guess is not wrong, in rapid speech, an ancient Greek could have de-aspirated the first consonant in the cluster /kʰtʰ/ and pronounced "πλαγχθη" like /plaŋk.tʰɛː/. So, I don't see how it could make me choke, even with both consonants aspirated. Looks like a skill issue to me.
About 11:00 - 11:10 Did I hear some inconsistency? I heard that first one you pronounce lambda with lateral flap as [ɺ] not lateral approximant [l] then second one your pronounce [l] before switch back to [ɺ] again? I heard both first and third as [ɹ] in first time but after reheard it, I think it's [ɺ]. (Note: I'm not native english and my L1's rhoctic sound is [r])
11:15 I think you pronounce delta in this word with [d̥]? I percieve it as [t] when I heard but later one in sentence. I heard as [d] Note: My L1 contrast /b/ vs /p/ vs /pʰ/ and /d/ vs /t/ vs /tʰ/ but only /k/ vs /kʰ/ with no /g/
@@polyMATHY_Luke Problem is many english speaker devoiced /b/ /d/ /g/ to [b̥] [d̥] [ɡ̥] (some one ever tell me that their dialect contrast /k/ vs /g/ by [kʰ] vs [k] as /g/ completely devoiced] In english devoiced are fine but absolutely not in ancient greek, Beta, Delta and Gamma never attested to be devoiced in ancient greek.
Just want to add my μεγίστην χάριν, Luke. Not just for beginners, but for all of us faux-debutantes trying to perfect our pronunciation, I think this is a repository of really crisp pronunciation models, into those little particulars!
at the psa in greek in the end when you say " not erasmian" you shouldnt say δεν ερασμιακή but say instead όχι ... you allready know that though i am sure it is just a slip up, love the video ( i mean no offence). It is curius how the old people pronounced the language, but i am having trouble imaginning them speak it in quick speed , because i am under the impression that as today in the old days in south europe people generally spoke with speed. Is it the fault of philologists for wanting to pronounce every word perfectly they sound robotic in the end? Could you make a video explainning it, why when i hear ancient it sounds robotic and not natural? Addesso studio italiano e so non devo dire ogni i quando no (τονίζεται?? ) perche italiano dite presto, non sono simile anziano greco e moderno greco??? Sorry for bad italian and english :) hahhaha Great video as allways!!!!
Thanks for the comment, but nope. the "δεν είναι Ερασμιακή" is absolutely correct and proper in modern Greek. And the "όχι Ερασμιακή" again is totally correct, whereas the "δεν Ερασμιακή" does not even make sense in Greek, both modern or classic, and is grammatically incorrect.
@polyMATHY_Luke Thanks for the response. I have show it before. My concern is that we have sources from Athens around 150 to 200 AD saying clearly that Attic pronunciation was lost from Athens, but still in use for the villages surrounding Athens for example Marathon etc. Between all of the attempts to reconstruct the pronunciation, yours sounds the best one to my ears even I do not accept it 100%
Some people, in some places (not all!) were pronouncing Φ as [f] as early as the first century AD - there is an advertisement in Pompeii, frozen forever in the year AD 79, in which is it clear that "phoenix" is being pronounced like [feniks]. Luke has a great video which mentions this example and many others; watch it!
To be chronologically correct, did Ancient Greek script have lowercase letters as used here, or was there only what we know as uppercase? And did they use the same accent marks in the same way?
Why are ε and ο pronounced as more closed than their Hellenistic/Koine counterparts? I also notice you pronounce the grave accent as an acute. Just wondering!
Great question! That is indeed the likely pronunciation of ε ο in Classical Attic: higher than η ω, and probably just slightly lower than ει ου. Italian seems to be a reasonable analogy: accented é ó are close-mid, è ò are open-mid, and unaccented e o are usually true-mid, though closer to close-mid.
This is a bit specific but i have noticed that you pronounce your Ancient Greek and Ancient Latin t's and d's from the teeth, a dental plosive. Is this correct or else, what's happening? Thank you
Just triggered a bizarre memory. At primary school they tried to teach us little kids the Greek alphabet, but without any other context 😂 I still can’t quite understand why they bothered with that considering that only a few of us from my class actually went on to learn any foreign languages at all 😂
Ah! Now if my students need a refresher, they can watch this. But I will have to spend a "minute" explaining why this video says ου = /o̝ː/ when I said ου = /uː/ἀλλὰ χάριν σοι ἔχω!
Wonderful! I don’t think it’s vitally important to avoid /u:/ for the Classical Attic option. In practice some Attic speakers were probably floating that vowel very close to /u:/ and without the contrast of another high back vowel it could phonetically reach that height without causing confusion.
Ammon Gilman. Have you heard about him and his channel “Lady Babylon.” He is saying some fairly wild things and teaching greek. And I wonder if you have come across him and his ideas. Curious.
@@jerkerMAN-nf3ns From Wikipedia: "Δεν είναι ξεκάθαρο το πώς προφερόταν στα αρχαία ελληνικά με τις πιθανότερες εκδοχές να είναι αυτές του προστριβόμενου [d͡z] και της ακολουθίας [zd]."
@polyMATHY_Luke yes no need to be skeptical it's not science after all haha also the book you cite are authored by non Greek authors so it's possible that they carry some biases on the pronunciation right?
@PetrosGolt certainly but less so than modern English! After all modern Greek is a product of evolution of ancient Greek, with many old dialects still being less influenced by the prevailing modern Greek e.g., tsakonian (dorin origin), Cypriot, rhodian, etc we Greek speakers might have a higher chance of getting it right than non Greek speakers, i mena from probability stand loint alone. All I am saying is I feel a modern Greek bias is probably more informed/ educated than a modern English one
That's the Ecclesiastical pronunciation. Luke is using the classical/ancient pronunciation where ti is always pronounced ti and not tsi before a vowel.
@ “Englesiastical”….:-))) in the English speaking world…..:-) Ask the Italians ,and others,they know better….it’s because the English speaking can’t pronounce that sound…! ;-) …The same with Ci sound …it’s “chi”….mispronounced by the English speaking. (I love English)…but English is English and Latin is Latin….
@@ad846 He is very familiar with the Italian/Ecclesiastical pronunciation of Latin because he's been learning Italian for years and has been to Italy several times. He just prefers to use the Classical Latin pronunciation where "ti" doesn't change to "tsi" before a vowel.
@@ad846If you talk to any Italian linguist, they will tell you that the 'ts' pronunciation is not part of classical Latin, but is instead just part of the traditional Italian pronunciation of Latin, also known as the Ecclesiastical pronunciation. That said, you're also wrong about English speakers not being able to pronounce the 'ts' sound - if that were true, we wouldn't pronounce 'pizza' the way we do. In the same vein, any Italian linguist can tell you that C in classical Latin had the same /k/ sound before all vowels. Just think about it - in English we pronounce C like an 's' before i and e, and we also have the 'ch' sound, so why would the /k/ pronunciation have anything to do with Latin?
He is using the Classical Attic dialect of ancient Greek, where the rough breathing is pronounced and φ, θ, and χ are aspirated versions of π, τ, and κ.
@BrandonBoardman Φ, θ, Χ can be pronounced as aspirated before a vowel, not before a consonant. Otherwise, they become unpronounceable. Try to pronounce πλαγχθη with the χ and θ aspirated.
@MS-nt4xe As a Greek who speaks 8 languages including ancient Greek I cannot pronounce them. Try to pronounce πλαγχθη using the so-called attic pronunciation.
@@DemetriosKongas How is it relevant whether you personally can pronounce them? Any speaker of Eastern Armenian can pronounce them, which means they can be pronounced. I suggest you read up on what Greek linguists say about Classical Attic pronunciation. You will find that they agree completely with their non-Greek counterparts.
Οι εγγράματοι Έλληνες δεν λέμε ποτέ αλλά . Το δραματικά χρησιμοποιούν λάθος στην αγγλική και άλλες γλώσσες. Δράμα, δραματικός, είναι λέξεις με αρνητικό περιεχόμενο όχι ποιοτικό ή ποσοτικό.
Not so intimidating... I've studied ancient Greek some, and it keeps being heavily intimidating. Maybe thanks to the Byzantine scribes who introduced lower case to make my eyes bleed. But I do enjoy your pronounciation much.
@polyMATHY_Luke you are doing great Luca!! You are just a bottomless pit of knowledge and never cease to amaze me. Also keep us posted if any more Pompeii scrolls get translated.
I feel a bit sorry for the modern Greeks who can’t cope with foreigners telling them how ancient (Attic) Greek was pronounced. They feel it’s _their_ language and have grown up being told it was pronounced like modern Greek. So they _know_ they’re right - and no facts, logic or evidence will convince them otherwise. Just like religion :-) It’s like trying to convince Slavs living north of Greece and south of Serbia that they have _nothing_ in common with Alexander the Great. I’m so glad not to have to worry about any of this, it’s just fun (or sad) to watch as an impartial observer.
I've just had this question myself. So is this just the issue of Greeks being utterly unreasonably and prone to nationalistic fantasies? And what about the "Erasmian" pronunciation? I'm so utterly confused by the whole matter as modern Westerners cannot talk plainly due to all the political correctness and innuendos. (Unlike that German professor who outright stated that modern Greeks have no drop of ancient Greek blood.) - Adûnâi
It’s not totally unreasonable, they just happen to be wrong :-) I’ve heard English Latin teachers using absolutely English pronunciation of Latin (almost all vowels are diphthongs: ego -> eigo-oo) It’s comically awful. In this case, having an Italian speaking Latin would be much better. _But only_ if they’re using the reconstructed ancient pronunciation! Ie. A _Greek_ using this reconstructed Attic might well be more authentic than Luke. The Greeks claiming Attic Greek was pronounced like Modern Greek are a bit like Italians claiming Cicero spoke Eclesiastical Latin. I think fewer Italians have that problem than Greeks. As far as I know, Erasmian pronunciation was Erasmus’s guess at classical Attic. But he made several mistakes. I don’t know which professor you’re talking about, but he sounds like an idiot. :-)
Dear Luke I really admire what you do but i would like to say something. As a greek that love languages end of course mine, in conversation with other not greek friends that are learning ancient greek I noticed that exist a huge communication gap because of the pronatiation. All the ancient greeks pronatiations are just hypothèses that are based on some facts but not enough to be completely true because unfortunately we don't have any record from Socrates or Aristotle. The language is a living being (ζωντανός οργανισμός) so I really found no reason to exist the differents pronantiations. Just learn ancient Greek how the modern Greek learn end not with an artificial pronation. I just say my opinion, I don't want to offend anyone.
That is entirely incorrect: we have extensive attestations on pronunciation from the ancient authors themselves, including Plato himself. Read the book Vox Graeca, linked in the description, και θα βρεις τη ελληνική έκδοση εκεί.
Dear Odysseus, take comfort and pride, if you wish, in the fact that modern Greek pronunciation has been around almost unchanged for almost two millennia. And you can fairly easily read the gospels today. English e.g. has changed dramatically (ριζικά) in grammar and pronunciation, to the point of being unrecognisable, in only one thousand years
I don't say that Greek didn't change during all of these years, I just found wrong the fact that the people who learn Greek (ancient or modern, the language is the same) learn with different pronunciations. The language suppose to create bridges and not gaps between the people.. (p.s. sorry for the orthographic mistakes, I have dislessia but this doesn't stop me from learning three languages in C2 level)
@@ΟδυσσέαςΠαλαπανίδης I agree, I also wish we could all use the same pronunciation as common ground. But I find the restored classical Attic pronunciation to be most suitable for ancient Greek. It's very well attested, already known by many (although not enough), retains phonemic vowel length (essential for poetry), and has the clearest correspondence between written and spoken language.
"Just learn ancient Greek how the modern Greek learn" - I observe that we are content, however, that classical Latin and ecclesiastical Latin both exist (the latter is simultaneously a living being and an artificial pronunciation), and we do not insist that everyone who is reading classical literature must speak the same Latin that is heard in church. We can accept that both are beautiful. Perhaps only Latin is beautiful enough to have two pronunciations, but I am willing to imagine that Greek might also be beautiful enough to have two, even though many people argue on RUclips that it is not.
funny disclaimer but I fear that it will not stop some of the modern Greeks from still commenting about the pronunciation ‘sounding unnatural to Greek ears, not being what their local orthodox priest taught them 30 years ago when they were 3 years old, and sounding like Spanish and Italian mixed’ etc etc lol
It can't be that the Attic dialect is closer to English pronunciation than it is to modern Greek. There's no audio samples from ancient Greece our best bet is to take clues from modern Greek so reading -b as bee instead of vee with such confidence takes all your credit away. In so many instances, I feel you force an English pronunciation, which is normal given that your understanding of even modern Greek pronunciation is that of a newborn from what I can hear when you read the disclaimer.
When the ancient Greeks adopted their script from the Phoenicians, for what reason do you think they would have employed three letters (ι η υ) and two digraphs (ει οι) to represent the same phoneme (/i/)? I think intuitively it is more likely that they were meant to convey different phonemes.
Attic pronunciation as shown in this video isn't similar to English pronunciation at all. Our best bet is of course the mountains of evidence we have for how classical attic was pronounced - none of this is a guess or just invented based on the spelling. If you want to argue against the reconstruction, you need to first learn about the evidence.
@Philoglossos other than being Greek myself I am not an expert in linguistics, it's just off putting when I hear the youtuber reading modern Greek at the disclaimer, (i mean kudos for the effort but any Greek can tell that this person is a foreigner in a split second due to his accent) for which we have a clear understanding of how it should sound in modern Greek 😀 and then to hear teaching ancient Greek pronunciation for which we have far lesser understanding of how it sounds. If one could not pronounce modern English properly (think of perfect english but with indian accent for example), would you find this person credible source for archaic English pronunciation? You would immediately think of his Indian accent. It's the same here for me. And as of the mountains of evidence, I am curious to know more.
So let me get it straight - a random newly-minted Balkan nation is trying to appropriate an ancient European scholarly and artistic tongue? Am I correct? Because it sounds indeed disastrous - just how my fellow (east of Poland, south of Belarus) countrymen think they are the oldest nation in Europe because of Tripolye. This has apparently nothing to do with scholarship, but everything - with Balkan special olympics, and it looka super adorable in English. The English gentlemen are just too shy to tell them off. - Adûnâi
I'm pretty sure English speakers need more help distinguishing ⟨γ κ⟩, ⟨δ τ⟩, and ⟨β π⟩ than ⟨κ χ⟩, ⟨τ θ⟩, and ⟨π φ⟩. You're familiar with a voicing distinction since you've learned plenty of Romance languages, but the average English speaker is more used to an aspiration distinction. An extreme case is Standard Southern British English, where traditional /b d g/ are actually realised [p t k] most of the time (contrasting with traditional /p t k/ [pʰ tʰ kʰ]).
You may have a point there. I’m from southern England and his non-aspirated p t k sound exactly like b d g to me :-( I mean aspirated: p t k Not-aspirated: b d g What else is there? :-( I pronounce φ θ χ as f(ind), th(ick), (Lo)ch. (which is apparently not Attic).
Yup. Im from South British England :-) I can do aspirated (p t k) and non-aspirated (b d g). If π τ κ are non-aspirated they sound like b d g to me. How then should I pronounce β δ γ? Extra unaspirated?
@@chrishoward140 Try saying m n ng while pretending to have a cold. When you have be a cold, air can't pass through your nose, so there can't be nasality. What's left is the voicing.
Thanks. I think i understand voicing (basically, humming as opposed to whispering). But how does that relate to b d g? If I leave out the “aspiration” (plosive?) p t k just turn into b d g. Are δ θ χ ~ p t k (aspirated) π τ κ ~ b d g (unaspirated) β δ γ ~ b d g (voiced)? Or something like that?
@@chrishoward140 You aren't hearing the difference and that's normal for a sound you aren't used to. One thing that has been helpful for me is to keep making the sounds and paying attention to the difference present. In Ancient Greek, there are two distinct sounds that you would interpret as B and two distinct sounds that you would interpret as D and two distinct sounds that you would interpret as G.
If you want to learn to read and speak Ancient Greek, Latin, Biblical Hebrew, or Old English in fun, immersive classes, sign up for lessons at AncientLanguage.com 🏺📖
How do you sound out Ancient Greek words if you don't know the alphabet? While learning the Greek alphabet an Ancient Greek pronunication isn't hard, it's not as easy as dealing with a language that uses our Roman or Latin alphabetical letters. This video is an excellent first lesson in Ancient Greek, especially if you've never studied it at all before, and shows you that it's possible to start sounding out Ancient Greek words and sentences, even from advanced literature, on your first day.
Books to learn about Ancient Greek Pronunciation:
Vox Graeca, by W. Sidney Allen
amzn.to/3FsiCT6
Vox Graeca, Η προφορά της ελληνικής την κλασική εποχή, by W. Sidney Allen (Modern Greek translation)
ins.web.auth.gr/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=690:vox-graeca-the-pronunciation-of-classical-greek&catid=93&Itemid=270&lang=en
Greek: A History of the Language and its People, Geoffrey Horrocks
amzn.to/3FXYedR
The Pronunciation of Greek and Latin, Edgar Howard Sturtevant
amzn.to/3W4nt45
The Pronunciation of New Testament Greek here, by Benjamin Kantor
amzn.to/3QEkuz1
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#greekalphabet #ancientgreek #ancientgreece
00:00 Intro
00:19 Letters Virtually Identical to Latin Equilavents
01:27 PSA for Modern Greek Speakers
03:40 Similar Letters with Caveats or Oddities
05:32 False Friends
06:09 More False Friends
08:23 Unfamiliar Letter Shapes
14:31 The Rest of the Bare Basics
15:41 Let's Sound Out Real Ancient Greek Sentences!
18:30 Squirrel & Fox
I cannot agree with the pronounciation of χ , θ and φ. and . The differentiation with the non exasperated versions is not prominent enough. The χ should be closer to a pulled hhhh basically a much more prominent dasia tonos. Example Herod or History, it should sound like a pulled spitting sound . For the θ the sound should be the Th yes but it sound sound like Thesis or Theodor not a T-h and for φ it should sound the same as F in english.
These letters where added in order to represent these more prominent sounds that the non exasperated versions cannot. Making them sound only slightly different from the original letter defeats their purpose entirely because it does not cover the linguistic needs nor the total lingustic spectrum of sounds the human mouth can produce.
Lastly for the β being μπ (b) and ζ being a zd is also something I cannot agree with because the D sound used the ντ since when spoken fast it does make the D sound. So evolutionary wise for a language it would not make sense to miss the english Ve sound. Example versus when B sound is made with μπ when spoken fast. Example εμπειρία (εν-πείρα) when spoken sounds ebiria not em--peiria. Ebrosthios (εν-προσθιος) --> εμπρόσθιος.
Some example that do not align with this pronounciation would be έκ-φρασης.(the tonos is not accurate I know). If φ is a pe-he and not a ph/f εκ-φρασης would basically sound εκ-πρασης (ekprasis) when spoken fast. Which is horendous to listen too and we know historically languages often use different letters in order to make a word sound more pleasing and in order to be spoken faster.
Another example is εχθρός would sound ektros when spoken fast. Which suffers from the same problem.
Φωνή (pe-he-one) instead of phone
Overall this pronounciation is better than the Erasmian but when we think about how a language evolves to represent all the sounds of the human mouth accurately leaving crucial sounds such as hissing(hhhee sound that cats make), blowing (foooooo), interdental lisping (Thhhh) and so on.
I do not disagree with the vowel pronounciation or how the diphthogues are written but with letters I mentioned above I will disagree greatly. Even the word diphthogue would sound dip-(h)-t(h)ogue or diptogue if spoken fast with this pronouciation which is not really something that would evolve in a language.
I would kill for such a good pronunciation guide as this in every language.
Very kind!
Thank you, dear Luke, very much for this great video!
The restored classical attic pronunciation you show us here is in my opinion the right pronunciation to learn Ancient Greek, because it becomes easier to someone to learn the irregular verbs!
It certainly has a lot of benefits! Thanks for the comment
Learning Old Persian through Classical Greek is nuts! I wish I could take that course, so cool
Best video out there now for Classical Attic pronunciation. Change my mind.
Thanks, ὦ φίλε!
@@polyMATHY_LukeὙπὸ σοί εἰμι!
@iberius9937 yes it marches the audio samples we retrieved from that era
@@EvangelosDimitriouLol.
Though many English speakers are not conscious of this, we also have aspirated and unaspirated voiceless plosives. Compare the p of pain (aspirated) with that of Spain (unaspirated), the t of take (aspirated) with that of stake (unaspirated) and the k of Kate (aspirated) with that of skate (unaspirated) (or the c of car with that of scar).
Another essential🎉 video for the ancient greek newbie. Thank you very much.
Thanks for watching and sharing!
I really appreciate this video. I'm trying to translate this into Lucian pronunciation for Koine. I would love a Koine version of this video :)
Thanks Luke! Please do more videos on classical Attic Phonology and Grammars❤💯
Thank you so much for your videos ☺
I am trying to do something similar, but it will take some time, until I get there.
Teaching ancient languages, while talking about their culture and history - it will take quite some time, but eventually I will get to the point, where I will teach those beautiful languages (and your channel will be a crucial part for my research and study ground - can't wait, until I reach this part in my journey.☺
Χαῖρε, ὦ ἄνθρωπε.
Impressive, grew up reading w καθαρεύουσα but talking in δημοτική so feels great to revisit the old language
Thank you
Ευχαριστώ
Classical Attic, what's next, Modernist Basement?
😂
How about Romantic Lounge?
Great video, I was waiting for this!
I learned Ancient Greek in school for 4 years with Erasmian Pronunciation in a German speaking country (Austria), thus it never sounded right for me. I was told about the lengthening, but was never shown. Big surprise for me that Zeta is actually Zdeta! No one told me about the tone, and the circonflex was just a funny marking no one could explain properly. r and rr where realized at the soft palate like in German and not distinguished (same in Latin), aspiration completely wrong (Austrians actually aspirate much less then Germans, it's quite easy for me now to pronounce kappa).
It would have made my learning experience so much better if we had a correct, distinguishing and meaningful pronunciation. Thank you so much for sharing this here!
Bist du aus Osterreich??? Ich kann dir helfen
Es gibt vielen Fehler in diesem video... Leider.
I'm thrilled to hear that, Patrick! Thanks for the comment.
@@EmpireOfLEMBERG I would be very interested to read what you specifically consider wrong in this video!
@@patrickstrasser-mikhail6873 And i d be very happy IF utube allows me to make a comment 😆 let s try today
Oh, it's you! I hadn't noticed in the beginning. So you speak Greek too?! Amazing.
Thanks!
I used to study Greek and Latin at university a long time ago but lasted only a semester and a half. I remember my Latin teacher being a great fan of the poetry of Catullus ( odi at amo ) and my Greek teacher reading out loud an excerpt from Homer which sounded like a great music to my ears despite the fact that I understood nothing. I do enjoy your videos. Luke, what do you think about Jhumpa Lahiri who switched to writing in Italian. I personally consider her a great inspiration for learning Italian or to be more specific relearning it. Now your channels are also a great inspiration and maybe a day will come that I take up learning Greek and Latin again. I got the textbooks already 😊. Keep doing good work.
Ευγε και συγχαρητήρια for your modern Greek, Λουκά! ❤ One funny remark: "Δραματικά" as you used it is an Anglicism! In modern Greek, it would rather be ριζικά / εντελώς
@@jerkerMAN-nf3ns You are talking about MODERN greek.
Ευχαριστώ!
Thanks so much!!
I just discovered your channel and I love it!!
I would like to ask how could I learn much more ancient Greek vocabulary such as concepts
I appreciate your help and just to say this is such a precious content channel to keep learning
Thank you!!😊
Thanks! Start with this video, then comment there if you’re not sure where to go next: ruclips.net/video/fvkvvdKot5U/видео.htmlsi=egOY9sv3k2G5hxDB
@polyMATHY_Luke thank you again!!
And Merry Christmas!!😊
Wait a minute: Learning OLD PERSIAN via Ancient Greek at ALI? No way.
Way! It’s going to be great
Zulu also has different plain and aspirated consonants.
An effect of this on English is the name of the Tugela River (English) - biggest river in KwaZulu Natal province, whose actual name is uThukela. ("h" indicates aspiration - but they could've used the Greek alphabet for some, it would seem.
That's really interesting!
Hey, I just realised something. Thukela became Tugela in English. It's the same thing that happened to the surname *Thakur! It became English Tagore. This pattern is too obvious to ignore, and it really makes aspirating word initial /p/, /t/, /k/ an integral part of the English language and the fact that normal English speakers can't easily distinguish between /g/ and an unaspirated /k/.
* On a side note, the "Th" here is a retroflex consonant.
@@warrior_of_the_most_high Thanks. I think you might be right there. There's at very least some "light aspiration" that gets taken up by the vowel or something. And yes, if there were none, English speakers would hear the /k/ in a word like Thukela, and not something voiced like a g.
Love this! I still really prefer the sound of somosotene Lucian and will probably continue to practice that. But this seems super useful especially so that one could consume content that is in some form of Erasmian and it be a little more comprehensible
Agreed. I also prefer the Lucian pronunciation.
This video makes me wish I didn't already know all this stuff so I could learn it from here
Thanks for your amazing videos!
have you made a video about ancient greek dictionaries?
I have: ruclips.net/video/9krrRIUFQZ4/видео.htmlsi=4wY4zsONzs7lnfC1
Great video! 👏🏻👏🏻
Love your stuff, but just to clarify something you said about Old Persian; it was the language spoken during the first Persian empire, the Achaemind dynasty, so it would have been contemporary with the Classical Attic period, up until around the second empire or the Sasanian empire, by which time the language had evolved into Middle Persian.
I live the idea of teaching Old Persian through Classical Greek as I'm sure the two languages have many similarities, both being Ancient Indo European languages!
That’s right! Yes, it will be Old Persian
Lovely video, thank you.
Even in antiquity there are different spellings for words and names. If I am not mistaken Πολυνίκης is the same as Πολυνείκης.
Absolutely: ruclips.net/video/dQBpwKWnZAo/видео.htmlsi=lGSGh0Do_Ko5YLln
Un’ottima introduzione! βαβαί ! ❤
Βαβαί, ὦ Βαββίᾱ! 😍
Babae! Great first lesson. καλῶς
I love the squirrel at the end too 😍😁 Thank you Luke!
Do you have any future plans about reading Λόγος like you did with LLPSI Familia Romana by any chance? 😊
Thank you very much for all your efforts again.
Thanks! Yes, I intend to recite it by year's end.
@@polyMATHY_LukeThat is amazing news!! I am very much looking forward to it! 🎉❤
I find it really hard to distinguish voiced and unaspirated unvoiced. One thing I like about the correlation of aspiration with unvoiced in English is you can still differentiate them while whispering. But it makes it so hard to hear and make the proper sounds in other languages
Well said.
Luke! Do you intend to record new videos reading Athenaze I? The sequel?
Χαῖρ’, ὦ Φίλιππε! I may some day; for now I post audio on my Patreon page
I was expecting the lesson to be in your Lucian accent, or do you recommend learning Attic first?
That's a great question. The simple answer is that Classical Attic is the ideal paedagogical pronunciation, since the spelling system was designed to represent *it*, and not later Koine pronunciations. One can definitely become a fluent reader using Koine-era pronunciations (I myself became fluent using Samosatene Lucian Pronunciation, then switched to Romaic Lucian Pronunication, and then came back to Classical Attic Pronunciation which I found to be more efficient and easier than I had given it credit for).
So there are many factors here. Unless one has a strong reason to avoid it, I would encourage Classical Attic Pronunciation first. But there are many paths, and I stand as living testament to that.
@@polyMATHY_Luke Does this mean most future audio books on your patreon, store, etc. will be in the restored classical?
13:30 I thought lambda is λάμβδα with "μ"? Isn't it supposed to be from the same Phoenician root as Arabic "lam" and Hebrew "lamed" which both have the "m" sound?
Right; interestingly, in Attic this μ goes away, and is attested thus; later the μ appears to be restored from different Greek dialects contributing to Koine.
I wish there was a separate and distinct button for the greek question mark when coding. It would be so fun to annoy coders.
Please ignore the upcoming comments from Greeks saying that Ancient Greek was not pronounced like that, its our educational system to be blaimed.
Greek here with Bachelors in Classics and Msc in papyrology and greek linguistics.
What about the comments by other nationalities? 😊
@@dimitri1072 Every single video about Ancient Greek on youtube has numerous comments like "You foreigners don't know how to speak our language, this is not Greek!!!". 🙂
Good to hear you have credentials but how come his reading is closer to an English pronunciation than to a modern Greek and somehow this is more probable to be correct. How about z and b and u pronunciatiins. All the relevant books he's citing in the comments are by American authors. So if with your credentials you confirm that what he says comforms with the literature great but how on earth happens that modern Greek are farther away from sounding similar than the modern English pronunciation is (e.g. b read as been instead of vee)
@@EvangelosDimitriou It's very simple. "B" is pronounced as "B" in English and many other languages exactly because it used to be pronounced that way in Greek at the time this symbol was adopted for those languages. Greek pronunciation changed. I am a native Russian speaker: in Russian, B is pronounced as V because at the time the Cyrillic alphabet was created for Slavic languages, B was already pronounced as V in Greek.
@@DmitryKrivitsky And the phenomenon is reversed in modern Spanish. Words beginning with the letter are pronounced /b/ like in the word “vamos.” They’re both labial consonants so it’s just natural that one slides into the other after centuries.
How do you pronounce the word πλαγχθη in your attic pronunciation?
In modern Greek pronunciation it is pronounced so smoothly and beautifully.
/plaŋ.kʰtʰɛː/
I think.
PLA- khthee ( kh like CH ,a heavy H and EE,like i know words like Irrelevant etc etc).
I hope i helped because i m not good at writing the phonetics😂
@@warrior_of_the_most_high exactly, try to pronounce it like that and you choke and you start coughing! And this is the first word of the second line of the Odyssey meaning wandered.
@@DemetriosKongas Sorry... but I don't choke a bit while pronouncing it. I've already pronounced it multiple times now while writing this comment. And I'm sorry again, instead of /plaŋ.kʰtʰɛː/, I should've divided the syllables as /plaŋkʰ.tʰɛː/. It's easier that way.
And if my guess is not wrong, in rapid speech, an ancient Greek could have de-aspirated the first consonant in the cluster /kʰtʰ/ and pronounced "πλαγχθη" like /plaŋk.tʰɛː/. So, I don't see how it could make me choke, even with both consonants aspirated. Looks like a skill issue to me.
About 11:00 - 11:10 Did I hear some inconsistency? I heard that first one you pronounce lambda with lateral flap as [ɺ] not lateral approximant [l] then second one your pronounce [l] before switch back to [ɺ] again?
I heard both first and third as [ɹ] in first time but after reheard it, I think it's [ɺ]. (Note: I'm not native english and my L1's rhoctic sound is [r])
11:15 I think you pronounce delta in this word with [d̥]? I percieve it as [t] when I heard but later one in sentence. I heard as [d]
Note: My L1 contrast /b/ vs /p/ vs /pʰ/ and /d/ vs /t/ vs /tʰ/ but only /k/ vs /kʰ/ with no /g/
It's entirely possible I'm not approximating these sounds as I intend; I'll have to do a closer study.
@@polyMATHY_Luke Problem is many english speaker devoiced /b/ /d/ /g/ to [b̥] [d̥] [ɡ̥] (some one ever tell me that their dialect contrast /k/ vs /g/ by [kʰ] vs [k] as /g/ completely devoiced]
In english devoiced are fine but absolutely not in ancient greek, Beta, Delta and Gamma never attested to be devoiced in ancient greek.
The PSA for modern Greek speakers hits me hard hahahhaha μπράβο Λούκα δεν ξεχνάς τους Έλληνες!!!!
Ευχαριστώ, Γιάννη!
Just want to add my μεγίστην χάριν, Luke. Not just for beginners, but for all of us faux-debutantes trying to perfect our pronunciation, I think this is a repository of really crisp pronunciation models, into those little particulars!
Very kind!
at the psa in greek in the end when you say " not erasmian" you shouldnt say δεν ερασμιακή but say instead όχι ...
you allready know that though i am sure it is just a slip up, love the video ( i mean no offence).
It is curius how the old people pronounced the language, but i am having trouble imaginning them speak it in quick speed , because i am under the impression that as today in the old days in south europe people generally spoke with speed.
Is it the fault of philologists for wanting to pronounce every word perfectly they sound robotic in the end? Could you make a video explainning it, why when i hear ancient it sounds robotic and not natural?
Addesso studio italiano e so non devo dire ogni i quando no (τονίζεται?? ) perche italiano dite presto, non sono simile anziano greco e moderno greco???
Sorry for bad italian and english :) hahhaha
Great video as allways!!!!
Thanks for the comment, but nope. the "δεν είναι Ερασμιακή" is absolutely correct and proper in modern Greek. And the "όχι Ερασμιακή" again is totally correct, whereas the "δεν Ερασμιακή" does not even make sense in Greek, both modern or classic, and is grammatically incorrect.
Do you have video where you pronounce in Ancient Greek all the names of their gods? With spelling?
Συγχαρητήρια Λουκά! Χαιρετίσματα από την Ελλάδα!
Plato was using this pronunciation but gospels not 😊
Greetings from Greece! I appreciate your passion even I do not agree 100%! Χαῖρε!
Naturally; the time of the Gospels had this pronunciation: ruclips.net/video/dQBpwKWnZAo/видео.htmlsi=lwY2mggLcDYVtFTh
@polyMATHY_Luke Thanks for the response. I have show it before. My concern is that we have sources from Athens around 150 to 200 AD saying clearly that Attic pronunciation was lost from Athens, but still in use for the villages surrounding Athens for example Marathon etc.
Between all of the attempts to reconstruct the pronunciation, yours sounds the best one to my ears even I do not accept it 100%
When did Φ, Θ, Χ get their "modern" fully fricative pronunciation [f], [θ], [x]?
See his video on that subject. Worth the watch and sure to answer all your questions!
Some people, in some places (not all!) were pronouncing Φ as [f] as early as the first century AD - there is an advertisement in Pompeii, frozen forever in the year AD 79, in which is it clear that "phoenix" is being pronounced like [feniks]. Luke has a great video which mentions this example and many others; watch it!
This video will help: ruclips.net/video/5lcIcYFveII/видео.htmlsi=IUvA4An-coIFYOJ8
Haven't been here for a while! Luke, I see you have you reverted to more conservative pronuntiations? :D
omg new polýmathy video just dropped!!
To be chronologically correct, did Ancient Greek script have lowercase letters as used here, or was there only what we know as uppercase? And did they use the same accent marks in the same way?
There were no lower case letters and no diacritics
1:30 I had to laugh 😂
It makes sense to do. Greeks are extreme nationalists, they take offence at the smallest things relating to their history.
Why does the thumbnail say τι; and not τí;?
Nice catch! Fixed.
Estne verum, quod quidam homo ex linguae Graecae veteri crampus stomachi cepit?
Nooooo!!!! Wherever I look I get reminded of Peanut's untimely demise!
0:19 bro is so invested in ancient greek he said "this" in a strong greek accent!!
Haha. I’m pretty sure I said “these are,” right? Otherwise, I’m flattered
@@polyMATHY_Luke you said "these" indeed, I misspelled. still, you pronounced it with a strong "ee"!
Why are ε and ο pronounced as more closed than their Hellenistic/Koine counterparts? I also notice you pronounce the grave accent as an acute. Just wondering!
Great question! That is indeed the likely pronunciation of ε ο in Classical Attic: higher than η ω, and probably just slightly lower than ει ου. Italian seems to be a reasonable analogy: accented é ó are close-mid, è ò are open-mid, and unaccented e o are usually true-mid, though closer to close-mid.
Luke, how can I say: "the dancing squirrel is so cute!" in ancient greek? (🐿️ in the end of the video hahhaha)
Ὁ χορεύων σκίουρος σφόδρα εὔμορφός ἐστιν.
@@BrandonBoardmanχορεύων. or "ο το σώμα εν ρυθμώ λικνίζων και τους καρπούς δακνόμενος σκίουρος, μάλα εύμορφός εστι."
@@mitsaroni1 Λυπάμαι για τα λάθη μου. Ακόμα μαθαίνω σύγχρονα και αρχαία ελληνικά.
@@BrandonBoardmanDon't worry, obviously you 're doing great. Keep going! The majority of us modernday Greeks wouldn't know the answer...!
Or: ὁ ὀρχούμενος σκίουρος λίαν καλὸς τὴν μορφὴν ἔφυ
This is a bit specific but i have noticed that you pronounce your Ancient Greek and Ancient Latin t's and d's from the teeth, a dental plosive. Is this correct or else, what's happening?
Thank you
Exactly, they are dental consonants, not alveolar as in English
Would love to apply to ancient language institute, but 850$ is somewhat too much. Oh well, have to continue with "Readng Greek".
Just triggered a bizarre memory. At primary school they tried to teach us little kids the Greek alphabet, but without any other context 😂 I still can’t quite understand why they bothered with that considering that only a few of us from my class actually went on to learn any foreign languages at all 😂
Interesting!
Ah! Now if my students need a refresher, they can watch this. But I will have to spend a "minute" explaining why this video says ου = /o̝ː/ when I said ου = /uː/ἀλλὰ χάριν σοι ἔχω!
Wonderful! I don’t think it’s vitally important to avoid /u:/ for the Classical Attic option. In practice some Attic speakers were probably floating that vowel very close to /u:/ and without the contrast of another high back vowel it could phonetically reach that height without causing confusion.
Ammon Gilman. Have you heard about him and his channel “Lady Babylon.” He is saying some fairly wild things and teaching greek. And I wonder if you have come across him and his ideas. Curious.
18:36 Phat Guss? 😮
I agree with your attic pronunciation of diphthongs and some vowels, but I am sceptical about the pronunciation of consonants.
No need to be skeptical of me, my friend; please check the book Vox Graeca, linked in the description, και θα βρεις την ελληνική έκδοση εκεί.
@@jerkerMAN-nf3ns From Wikipedia: "Δεν είναι ξεκάθαρο το πώς προφερόταν στα αρχαία ελληνικά με τις πιθανότερες εκδοχές να είναι αυτές του προστριβόμενου [d͡z] και της ακολουθίας [zd]."
@polyMATHY_Luke yes no need to be skeptical it's not science after all haha also the book you cite are authored by non Greek authors so it's possible that they carry some biases on the pronunciation right?
@@EvangelosDimitriou Don't you think modern Greek speakers would bring their own biases on to how to pronounciate old Greek words and letters?
@PetrosGolt certainly but less so than modern English! After all modern Greek is a product of evolution of ancient Greek, with many old dialects still being less influenced by the prevailing modern Greek e.g., tsakonian (dorin origin), Cypriot, rhodian, etc we Greek speakers might have a higher chance of getting it right than non Greek speakers, i mena from probability stand loint alone. All I am saying is I feel a modern Greek bias is probably more informed/ educated than a modern English one
An out of context question: in what sense do you think Saint Augustine did not appreciate Greek?
thanks ! very good ,but ti in Latin is tzi ….( that ‘s what the English don’t get and taught….:-)))
Not quite: ruclips.net/video/XeqTuPZv9as/видео.htmlsi=rMs1EIWcyDgrFA6-
That's the Ecclesiastical pronunciation. Luke is using the classical/ancient pronunciation where ti is always pronounced ti and not tsi before a vowel.
@ “Englesiastical”….:-))) in the English speaking world…..:-) Ask the Italians ,and others,they know better….it’s because the English speaking can’t pronounce that sound…! ;-) …The same with Ci sound …it’s “chi”….mispronounced by the English speaking. (I love English)…but English is English and Latin is Latin….
@@ad846
He is very familiar with the Italian/Ecclesiastical pronunciation of Latin because he's been learning Italian for years and has been to Italy several times. He just prefers to use the Classical Latin pronunciation where "ti" doesn't change to "tsi" before a vowel.
@@ad846If you talk to any Italian linguist, they will tell you that the 'ts' pronunciation is not part of classical Latin, but is instead just part of the traditional Italian pronunciation of Latin, also known as the Ecclesiastical pronunciation. That said, you're also wrong about English speakers not being able to pronounce the 'ts' sound - if that were true, we wouldn't pronounce 'pizza' the way we do. In the same vein, any Italian linguist can tell you that C in classical Latin had the same /k/ sound before all vowels. Just think about it - in English we pronounce C like an 's' before i and e, and we also have the 'ch' sound, so why would the /k/ pronunciation have anything to do with Latin?
You pronounced χθές like ctes!
He is using the Classical Attic dialect of ancient Greek, where the rough breathing is pronounced and φ, θ, and χ are aspirated versions of π, τ, and κ.
@BrandonBoardman Φ, θ, Χ can be pronounced as aspirated before a vowel, not before a consonant. Otherwise, they become unpronounceable. Try to pronounce πλαγχθη with the χ and θ aspirated.
@@DemetriosKongas There's nothing unpronounceable about an aspirated consonant before another consonant. Eastern Armenian is full of them.
@MS-nt4xe As a Greek who speaks 8 languages including ancient Greek I cannot pronounce them. Try to pronounce πλαγχθη using the so-called attic pronunciation.
@@DemetriosKongas How is it relevant whether you personally can pronounce them? Any speaker of Eastern Armenian can pronounce them, which means they can be pronounced.
I suggest you read up on what Greek linguists say about Classical Attic pronunciation. You will find that they agree completely with their non-Greek counterparts.
Οι εγγράματοι Έλληνες δεν λέμε ποτέ αλλά . Το δραματικά χρησιμοποιούν λάθος στην αγγλική και άλλες γλώσσες. Δράμα, δραματικός, είναι λέξεις με αρνητικό περιεχόμενο όχι ποιοτικό ή ποσοτικό.
That’s true, I made a mistake with δραματικά - my knowledge of Modern Greek idiom is fairly poor. This was my best attempt.
as someone who hated ancient greek in school, thank you for making ancient greek more interesting for young students!
I’m thrilled to hear that! Thanks
...or you can go to Cyprus, Tsakonia or speak with Pontic Greeks (ok, not entirely ancient anymore, but still...)
@ Έτσι ήταν η αρχαία προφορά, ρώτα έναν φιλόλογο…
Not so intimidating... I've studied ancient Greek some, and it keeps being heavily intimidating. Maybe thanks to the Byzantine scribes who introduced lower case to make my eyes bleed. But I do enjoy your pronounciation much.
Μιλάει και την Νέο Ελληνική ο κύριος Λουκιανός???
Όχι καλά, αλλά ναι μπορώ να μιλάω level A2.
@polyMATHY_Luke you are doing great Luca!! You are just a bottomless pit of knowledge and never cease to amaze me. Also keep us posted if any more Pompeii scrolls get translated.
Pronouncing β, γ and δ as b, g, and d sounds barbaric to Greek ears!
I agree with you. I prefer a κοινή pronunciation where β, δ, γ, φ, θ, and χ are closer to modern Greek.
I feel a bit sorry for the modern Greeks who can’t cope with foreigners telling them how ancient (Attic) Greek was pronounced.
They feel it’s _their_ language and have grown up being told it was pronounced like modern Greek. So they _know_ they’re right - and no facts, logic or evidence will convince them otherwise. Just like religion :-)
It’s like trying to convince Slavs living north of Greece and south of Serbia that they have _nothing_ in common with Alexander the Great.
I’m so glad not to have to worry about any of this, it’s just fun (or sad) to watch as an impartial observer.
I've just had this question myself. So is this just the issue of Greeks being utterly unreasonably and prone to nationalistic fantasies? And what about the "Erasmian" pronunciation? I'm so utterly confused by the whole matter as modern Westerners cannot talk plainly due to all the political correctness and innuendos. (Unlike that German professor who outright stated that modern Greeks have no drop of ancient Greek blood.)
- Adûnâi
It’s not totally unreasonable, they just happen to be wrong :-)
I’ve heard English Latin teachers using absolutely English pronunciation of Latin (almost all vowels are diphthongs: ego -> eigo-oo) It’s comically awful.
In this case, having an Italian speaking Latin would be much better. _But only_ if they’re using the reconstructed ancient pronunciation!
Ie. A _Greek_ using this reconstructed Attic might well be more authentic than Luke.
The Greeks claiming Attic Greek was pronounced like Modern Greek are a bit like Italians claiming Cicero spoke Eclesiastical Latin. I think fewer Italians have that problem than Greeks.
As far as I know, Erasmian pronunciation was Erasmus’s guess at classical Attic. But he made several mistakes.
I don’t know which professor you’re talking about, but he sounds like an idiot. :-)
Dear Luke I really admire what you do but i would like to say something. As a greek that love languages end of course mine, in conversation with other not greek friends that are learning ancient greek I noticed that exist a huge communication gap because of the pronatiation. All the ancient greeks pronatiations are just hypothèses that are based on some facts but not enough to be completely true because unfortunately we don't have any record from Socrates or Aristotle. The language is a living being (ζωντανός οργανισμός) so I really found no reason to exist the differents pronantiations. Just learn ancient Greek how the modern Greek learn end not with an artificial pronation.
I just say my opinion, I don't want to offend anyone.
That is entirely incorrect: we have extensive attestations on pronunciation from the ancient authors themselves, including Plato himself. Read the book Vox Graeca, linked in the description, και θα βρεις τη ελληνική έκδοση εκεί.
Dear Odysseus, take comfort and pride, if you wish, in the fact that modern Greek pronunciation has been around almost unchanged for almost two millennia. And you can fairly easily read the gospels today. English e.g. has changed dramatically (ριζικά) in grammar and pronunciation, to the point of being unrecognisable, in only one thousand years
I don't say that Greek didn't change during all of these years, I just found wrong the fact that the people who learn Greek (ancient or modern, the language is the same) learn with different pronunciations. The language suppose to create bridges and not gaps between the people.. (p.s. sorry for the orthographic mistakes, I have dislessia but this doesn't stop me from learning three languages in C2 level)
@@ΟδυσσέαςΠαλαπανίδης
I agree, I also wish we could all use the same pronunciation as common ground. But I find the restored classical Attic pronunciation to be most suitable for ancient Greek. It's very well attested, already known by many (although not enough), retains phonemic vowel length (essential for poetry), and has the clearest correspondence between written and spoken language.
"Just learn ancient Greek how the modern Greek learn" - I observe that we are content, however, that classical Latin and ecclesiastical Latin both exist (the latter is simultaneously a living being and an artificial pronunciation), and we do not insist that everyone who is reading classical literature must speak the same Latin that is heard in church. We can accept that both are beautiful. Perhaps only Latin is beautiful enough to have two pronunciations, but I am willing to imagine that Greek might also be beautiful enough to have two, even though many people argue on RUclips that it is not.
funny disclaimer but I fear that it will not stop some of the modern Greeks from still commenting about the pronunciation ‘sounding unnatural to Greek ears, not being what their local orthodox priest taught them 30 years ago when they were 3 years old, and sounding like Spanish and Italian mixed’ etc etc lol
It can't be that the Attic dialect is closer to English pronunciation than it is to modern Greek. There's no audio samples from ancient Greece our best bet is to take clues from modern Greek so reading -b as bee instead of vee with such confidence takes all your credit away. In so many instances, I feel you force an English pronunciation, which is normal given that your understanding of even modern Greek pronunciation is that of a newborn from what I can hear when you read the disclaimer.
🤡🤡🤡
@URUNicoM very constructive anwes thanks. Or was it just a selfie of you
When the ancient Greeks adopted their script from the Phoenicians, for what reason do you think they would have employed three letters (ι η υ) and two digraphs (ει οι) to represent the same phoneme (/i/)? I think intuitively it is more likely that they were meant to convey different phonemes.
Attic pronunciation as shown in this video isn't similar to English pronunciation at all. Our best bet is of course the mountains of evidence we have for how classical attic was pronounced - none of this is a guess or just invented based on the spelling. If you want to argue against the reconstruction, you need to first learn about the evidence.
@Philoglossos other than being Greek myself I am not an expert in linguistics, it's just off putting when I hear the youtuber reading modern Greek at the disclaimer, (i mean kudos for the effort but any Greek can tell that this person is a foreigner in a split second due to his accent) for which we have a clear understanding of how it should sound in modern Greek 😀 and then to hear teaching ancient Greek pronunciation for which we have far lesser understanding of how it sounds.
If one could not pronounce modern English properly (think of perfect english but with indian accent for example), would you find this person credible source for archaic English pronunciation? You would immediately think of his Indian accent. It's the same here for me. And as of the mountains of evidence, I am curious to know more.
So let me get it straight - a random newly-minted Balkan nation is trying to appropriate an ancient European scholarly and artistic tongue? Am I correct? Because it sounds indeed disastrous - just how my fellow (east of Poland, south of Belarus) countrymen think they are the oldest nation in Europe because of Tripolye.
This has apparently nothing to do with scholarship, but everything - with Balkan special olympics, and it looka super adorable in English. The English gentlemen are just too shy to tell them off.
- Adûnâi
fact εὖ is cognate with sanskrit prefix su- or hsu- meaning good
I'm pretty sure English speakers need more help distinguishing ⟨γ κ⟩, ⟨δ τ⟩, and ⟨β π⟩ than ⟨κ χ⟩, ⟨τ θ⟩, and ⟨π φ⟩. You're familiar with a voicing distinction since you've learned plenty of Romance languages, but the average English speaker is more used to an aspiration distinction. An extreme case is Standard Southern British English, where traditional /b d g/ are actually realised [p t k] most of the time (contrasting with traditional /p t k/ [pʰ tʰ kʰ]).
You may have a point there. I’m from southern England and his non-aspirated p t k sound exactly like b d g to me :-(
I mean aspirated: p t k
Not-aspirated: b d g
What else is there? :-(
I pronounce φ θ χ as f(ind), th(ick), (Lo)ch. (which is apparently not Attic).
Yup. Im from South British England :-)
I can do aspirated (p t k) and non-aspirated (b d g).
If π τ κ are non-aspirated they sound like b d g to me. How then should I pronounce β δ γ? Extra unaspirated?
@@chrishoward140 Try saying m n ng while pretending to have a cold. When you have be a cold, air can't pass through your nose, so there can't be nasality. What's left is the voicing.
Thanks. I think i understand voicing (basically, humming as opposed to whispering). But how does that relate to b d g?
If I leave out the “aspiration” (plosive?) p t k just turn into b d g.
Are δ θ χ ~ p t k (aspirated)
π τ κ ~ b d g (unaspirated)
β δ γ ~ b d g (voiced)?
Or something like that?
@@chrishoward140 You aren't hearing the difference and that's normal for a sound you aren't used to. One thing that has been helpful for me is to keep making the sounds and paying attention to the difference present.
In Ancient Greek, there are two distinct sounds that you would interpret as B and two distinct sounds that you would interpret as D and two distinct sounds that you would interpret as G.