The 'negative impact' of burning coal on heritage railways is really relatively low. It may be a major user of coal now, but compared with pollution in general and old-time coal pollution, it is a drop in the ocean. As you say, its use also educates the younger generations.
You're quite right of course, but then again everyone says that about their passion or hobby, be it motorcycling, racing sports or otherwise. We have to start at our own front door and try to do what we can do.
I am seeing the bio coal tests are now happening at the Keighley and Worth Valley Railway with one of their larger locomotives and a five carriage train.
Seem to remember a previous video on the NYMR page with Chris their GM who said all heritage steam railways in the world equates to about 2.5% of the global coal emissions. So it's a tiny amount, but still if they are going to continue using it then carbon offsetting needs to be considered!
@@sudrianliam1199 It's true tough. All of Europe could switch to 0% carbon emissions and it would make basically no difference given how much comes from China and India.
Problem is that Welsh coal is the best type for steam locomotives. And as they said in the video that mine has reached the end of its life (as the Welsh government are stopping mining for coal). So unless they stockpiled years of their supply or got the government to change their mind its a lot harder than it sounds!
It is a massive shame the Welsh Government cannot see the wood for the trees. It is insane that we have plenty of good quality coal in our country but due to the want to been seen as green, heritage railways have to import coal from abroad and more of it at a higher cost, having a bigger impact on CO2 emissions, while losing money from the Welsh economy and people's livelihoods. Great video.
Tower collieries was the last deep coal mine and it closed in 2010.. there are some surface mines [you can check my channel for video of one] but steam coal is deep coal.. bituminous .. the deepest coal.
@@julesdingle No, dry steam coal isn't bituminous. Coal is on a sliding scale of hardness and carbon content. After turf, you get a soft brown coal called lignite (this used to power Germany's power stations) then sub bituminous (Which I have never seen nor handled) then bituminous is/was the vast majority of British coal. Wales produced the highest quality fuel of all, anthracite and a fuel with a slightly lower fixed carbon content, dry stream coal. Dry steam coal is still smokeless, but does combust a bit more readily than anthracite. What Ffos-y-fran is I must confess I don't know. How much is spoil reclamation and how much is opencast mining is beyond me. Bituminous coal was certainly mined by opencast methods in Britain, and I'm certain there will be opencast anthracite sites in America.
Locomotives were designed certain types of coal & may not perform well on other types or wood. American locomotives burned everything that was handy. Either import or convert to oil. They had to do that in California. Thick Douglas fir bark works good, The Anacortes railway used it as a substitute.
I'm so impressed by the straight talking style of you guys. We're going to have to face this problem with thought and consideration. I'm proud that the heritage industry is thinking so far forward in order to preserve the past. Thanks so much
You're always welcome to have some of our coal from Australia. Here in the Hunter Valley trains of between 90 and 100 hoppers pass by every half hour or so to the port of Newcastle. If there's no Welsh coal, why not coal from New South Wales? Best wishes from Aus.
Cool. As a fireman on a heritage railway in Victoria I can tell you if I was ever rostered on an engine with Victorian coal I'd refuse the shift because you'd be better off burning dirt 👍
Well done, gents. Your care for the environment is clear, and you're both still bona fide steam enthusiasts! What a combo. Heritage steam railway emissions are so small in the scheme of all industry in the world.
A lot of things people do are "polluting for pleasure", and much of it happens on a much larger scale than steam railways. If we don't want to do that, we shouldn't have motorsports, driving of heritage cars, general aviation, cruise ships, flying or using any other "polluting" means of transport for holiday trips, and so on. So please don't feel bad about burning coal!
Motorsports you say! How are you going to explain that to the millions of motorsports fans globally? We can't go to electric until 2045 as Formula E Holds exclusive rights to Electric Single-Seater Motorsports. IndyCar Currently uses 85% Bioethanol from waste crops and F1 will ramp up to almost 100% Bioethanol in 2025/6 so yeah, we actually pollute very little from the engines (they are the most thermally efficient ICEs ever, it's more the aviation and logistics of Motorsports that needs looking at, and we are.
@Richard Harrold perhaps you could take some readings and let us know what they are. Also take some from plaster board I think you will surprised especially as we have plaster board in our homes.
I enjoyed that, in a funny way. informative, we used to export coal, to Poland to bring it up to a higher standard (by blending) for burning! exported from NCB Ashington in 20' open containers.
I just hope the Old Lady and her coworkers accept the other coals that you guys try. You're over 150 years old, I think you guys can work through this!
Even open one as a heratage attraction in its own right (like Big Pit) Just one that still extracts coal on a small scale and sells the resulting steam coal to the heratage sector. (can also turn the fines into briquettes and sell them to narroboaters etc)
And again. We close an industry to reduce emisions, forcing it overseas where we need to transport the product and have no control over the emisions produced by that industry.
It’s the meat vs the avocado argument again and again the same as that argument your not wrong shut down the coal sector so it can’t be used to pollute yet you’re causing more pollution because then it’s got to be shipped in which means more pollution on top of what the original would have been same with councils penny pinching by not cleaning the storm drains…
It didn't close because of that. It closed because there is not enough demand for coal to merit the high prices that it costs to extract it in the UK. Short of putting tariffs on imported coal just to support heritage railways, there isn't really much can be done.
Thank you. An interesting, informative and well presented video. The mind boggles at the thought of having to import coal. Sounds like the whole steam rail industry needs to act as a single buyer to get the best price... and/or open a heritage working mine in Wales :-)
Thanks fellas for a great summing up of the coal situation. It also affects the miniature rail scene where some of the smokeless fuels are no longer available. Question: Is it about time to look at improved combustion techniques. Rosebud grates for fine coals, more secondary air, possible gas producer combustion and optimised drafting? Just this week on a miniature 7.25" gauge loco we made improvements to the drafting. The loco steamed poorly and smoked excessively but because we had been burning a smokeless fuel the loco seemed OK a change of coal showed up the problem. We found the stack diameter was too large for the blast nozzle so a temporary sleeve was make of "aluminium", we had it on hand! Success, no trouble keeping up pressure and significantly reduced smoke.
I don’t know what the logistics of importing coal from the United States would be on top of all the legalities but we still have plenty of coal here in Kentucky and next-door in West Virginia so dependent on factors you could get it from here. Hope to visit someday. Cheers!
Its interesting to see this problem, coming from the Western USA (Nevada/California) all our steam locomotives burn oil or wood, hardly any coal burners out here infact they are outlawed in California. At the Nevada County Narrow Gauge museum (I sort of consider the Talyllyn of California) we run a 0-4-0 porter locomotive, it originally burned coal but we find great success burning oak (great abundance out here) the firebox cant be that much larger then Dolgoch's anyway. I also own and run a 7.5" gauge 1.5" scale Little Engines American, with a great area of about 20"sq using exclusively Almond wood with great success, infact it runs better on wood then on coal! Although the coal was low quality and the blast was to week so it didn't burn properly. Food for thought I guess! Sad to see it go though.
It's a nice idea and I know that it works well in the States, but I think one of the issues with wood burners, at least over here, is that they cause a lot of sparks, which in turn cause lineside fires - and heritage railways in the UK get fined for causing lineside fires and having the fire brigade come out to stop them - this is why on hot summer days it's often diesels that haul the trains, and at the very least there's extra safety checks at the engine sheds before the locomotives go out; this is mitigated somewhat by spark arrestor meshes in the smokebox, but not to the extent of the large spark-arresting chimneys common on US railroads - also, and although I'm no expert, there's probably a difference in the chemical composition between coal and wood, which might have an impact on the boiler and tubes. Plus, larger railways with longer runs may not have the storage capacity to burn all that wood. Oil is another option, and there were some locomotives in the UK (Ffestiniog comes to mind) which burned oil, however, that comes with its own issues - not least of which is that none of the Talyllyn steam locos (to my knowledge) ever burned oil, and to get them to do this would require significant modifications. This isn't to even consider the economic and environmental issues of burning mineral oil - and given recent events oil will be a scarcer commodity; and probably very expensive. There's not really much heritage railways can really do in this situation - I think the future is likely to be in biocoal, and possibly more use of biodiesel/waste vegetable oil in an oil-burner type arrangement (ironically, like the Disneyland Railroad), with maybe some wood burning thrown in for good measure; however all this needs money, materials and people's time - things the heritage railway sector in the UK is often short on. However, the real caveat here is that I am only an observer, and my knowledge on this topic is really limited - it would be helpful to actually have a few mechanical engineers weigh in on this, because there's plenty of scope for me to have made errors here.
@@theenigmaticst7572 Yes Lineside fires are a big problem out here in the dry west, Look at the Durango & Silverton as an example, there converting all there locomotives to oil because of the dangers. But low quality coal sparks just as much in my experience. Spark arrestors are a must, but they can be fitted in the smoke box or ontop of the chimney. As for chemical differences, there are very little to none in terms of added corrosion, infact it is my opinion that wood is way easier for maintenance purposes because it doesn't burn up the grates, produce clinker or ash up the tubes when its burning well. Again this is just my experience with locomotives like Glenbrook, Inyo and My American, it may not be as simple as I think. The nice thing about steam and especially heritage steam is that trying new fuels is easy, Just try and burn biodiesel in a petrol engine for example. I figure it cant hurt to try for these lines it seems the worst possible outcome (provided they take saftey precautions) is a few cords of cordwood sitting in the bunker.
@@johnkuzma7066 Wood firing on larger engines would be a major issue. The INYO, GLENBROOK, and EUREKA are quite small and traditionally operate a low speeds. Some large Brazilian wood burners were operated, but I would think it would be difficult to operate say a superheated 9F let alone a mainline engine such as the DUCHESS OF SUTHERLAND or CLUN CASTLE on wood. The heat and steaming properties just wood not be there. As for oil, look at the cost and I fear it will get even worse relatively soon. Now the recycled oils may still be available for a similar price, but fuel oils and diesel oils as some operations burn may get very expensive. Used motor oil and fryer oils would still be available I assume though. The cost of converting locomotives could add up quite quickly however, especially if there was not an existing burner design for a classmate or similar locomotive in terms of firebox size and working statistics.
@@jacobwoods8738 yes wood isn't a solution for the big engines but for the Talyllyn it would work quite well I'd bet. Fire boxes are small enough and the run short enough it would probably work, wether or not it would be more economical than coal is dependent on wether or not they can even get coal in the future.
@@jacobwoods8738 also we have to consider the length of run on Heritage lines, your not going 100miles running tonnage at 60mph it's far easier to try out new fuels when the penalty for failure is a few extra cordes of wood (that could be used for fireing up in the morning if it didn't work) and a few unhappy passengers that had to get a locomotive change in the middle of the road. (An adventure that would certainly have me coming back to the railway if handled well).
I hope you guys solve this coal problem and continue running! I will praying for you, and God bless! I would think God would be saddened in seeing steam locomotive operations suddenly halted.
From what I've read recently the East Lancashire Railway have said that steam locomotives will only be used on special occasions such as their dining car trains and galas and their main haulage will be diesel powered from now on.
There are probably enough traction enthusiasts for whom diesel power represents history, to pull it off. It may be that heritage railways restored as a way of preserving steam, will only see steam locos on high days and jolidays.
The main challenge will be getting coal of an appropriate size. For most customers mines just pulverize it to powder. Heritage railways simply don't have the buying power to influence a mine unless the mine is being nice.
I may not be a bleak future for steam both the bure valley railway and keightley and worth valley railway have been testing this new eco biocoal and its proving to be a success so hopefully that fuel source will be the future for heritage railways
It's sad to hear that alternative sources of coal are so far away. Even with economy of scale the ecological impact of importing it must surely be higher than sourcing locally, particularly if it's lower quality. I'm interested to hear how the trial of eco coal goes.
@@ethandouro4334 this has sort of been done before by the Swiss I believe, it wasn't very efficient and electricity and water doesn't mix, theres a few videos about it on RUclips
@@CustomiZe_ yes the swiss tried to do that, why don't we try to improve the technology in favor of preserving steam engines while both being ecological? Electricity, Coal, Wood, Oil, any things go... What about gas tho?
@@ethandouro4334 well to be honest with you, there isn't an ecological method that is sufficient enough to fire steam locos, solar and wind won't be reliable enough. Batteries won't be powerful enough and effective enough to last all day. Plus it will all be incredibly expensive. As much as it pains me to say it but heritage railways are only just surviving and one day heritage railways will just become static museums. Vegetable oil could possibly work but i would imagine its not hot enough same as wood.
@@CustomiZe_ well then, I guess the herietage railways such as Talyllyn should actually try to be an normal railway and have services for people who lives there, all the talyllyn stations I have seen so far leads to nowhere and that could change if they create a mine or a factory of some short. Do what China did with Xinjiang, preserve the railway even afterwards the coal mining company closed it's door, just open for tuorism and charity I guess. It would be such a shame to see such beautyful machines static at the rails and never on touch again... I'm no boiler professional of some short or whatsoever, but there is still a need to find for preservation of these machines and prevent them from becoming static or imortalized as characters in Thomas the Tank Engine stories of some short. China and India have done a great job preserving it's old railways by simply using their steam locomotives as not only for tourism but also for hardwork in case there is no train availabe. I guess we can actually wish for a better solution for Coal and the heating problem of locomotives... Maybe Plastic? I don't think it would be healthy to just simply throw rubbish inside a firebox of an engine, but would it help at least?
If the company producing ecoal is keen on developing their products for the heritage railway industry, then I think it would be a worthwhile investment. The railway I volunteer at currently doesn’t run passenger services, or have a working steam loco, so I think it would be interesting to see how a heritage railway would work using new technologies from its very opening day. I wouldn’t mind the increase in price, but it’s just what the family visitors and the old “keyboard warriors” think (not that they latter would even pay for a train ticket in the first place)
I know the Keighley and Worth Valley Railway are now trialling the ecoal bio coal with a large locomotive hauling the average 5 coach train they tend to haul
For anyone who thinks that oil burning locomotives do not make black smoke... well they do, and often in more impressive amounts. Especially when you need to clean out the tar residue from the burners. In the Netherlands there is also an experiment with bio coal, with the main issue being the increased volume needed for the same amount of heat. Which could be an issue for mainline steam and british loading gauge
Is there any sort of future for biocoal, obviously it would need development and refinement, but could it be used effectively on heritage steam trains?
I still think that something the UK railroads could maybe find useful is follow what some US railroads did which was burn oil. Yes it still produces co2 but it typically burns a lot cleaner so you don’t have the ash and soot like coal Plus it has the benefit of being acquired from multiple ways, you could buy fuel oil But something US railroads have done is that some of them burn oil that was made from used cooking oil and the railroad I help at gets it’s fuel oil from used motor oil that was filtered So while in some cases like England even though burning oil isn’t original, it could likely be cheaper to burn and since it can come from different types of used oil your able to essentially reuse someone else waste oil
If it were viable. We've tried several times over the decades and it's never really worked. If the big four (LNER, LMS, GWR and Southern) couldn't make it work I doubt a small line with small margins have a hope with oil. We simply don't have Union Pacifics resources over here.
@@rockacraig5653 You don’t need Union Pacific resources The railroad I help at is a non profit and around six miles of track but we run an oil burner and am able to order used motor oil for our locomotive
@@rockacraig5653 The GWR locomotives worked better with oil than with coal. The Swiss mountain railways bought new steam locomotives in 1993 which run on light oil. They turned out to be more efficient than their diesel locomotives.
@ Evidence? The calorific value of coal is unpredictable and lower than oil. Some of the coal is not burned and ends up in the smoke box or goes straight up the chimney. Coal produces ash and clinker which has to be got rid of, acid gas which damages the firebox, and grit which damages the boiler, cylinders and other parts of the locomotives. Coal is not the best of fuels.
interesting to hear about the ways you're trying to face the challenges, good to know the national body are also involved in trying to organise a system. One wonders if it's the sort of thing where an international alliance would be effective, with heritage groups across Europe clubbing together to buy coal from one or two high quality sources within Europe. Creating enough concentrated demand for mines to stay operational. You mention Polish coal being good quality for instance; and they're keen to keep their large coal industry alive for as long as possible as they begrudgingly slowly move away from coal power plants.
The thing about steam is, you can theoretically burn anything for fuel. I think this is not so much a problem as an opportunity for innovation. It's just a matter of finding what burns cleanly and efficiently and is economical for Heritage lines to acquire.
That's true. There's still issues involved because this is Britain; the United States had more diverse fueling options throughout its steam history because it had (and has) huge forests, oil fields, and coal beds that made it economical. Narrow gauge railroads in the US could just cut down trees as they built the line and turn right around to throw them into the firebox.
You can alternatively burn nothing, using an electric, maybe induction heating element. It would require overhead catenary wires, transformer equipment, and pantographs, but it would work. Switzerland did this during WW2 because their coal supply chain was cut off.
Mackwell claims his new boiler design can run a steam engine on wood. So maybe it's not just about choosing a new fuel, but also modifying, or changing boilers to match the fuel as well. Which as boilers need to be replaced from time to time anyway, would perhaps not be an unreasonable long term stratagy. and testing new steam tech, is a long tradition in narrow gauge.
If coal can’t be used maybe oil could be used like the trains at Disney land they run in old vegetable oil from the restaurants and the trains still run on steam
Oh god no, converting the fleet to oil would be messy and just not proper, these are very important locomotives for a large part of the world, yes we would love to see them run but I’d rather have them stationary then have them on oil
I wonder if Wales could permit "heritage coal processing" facilities which, similar to heritage railways, demonstrate industrial-revolution practices for educational purposes, while also actually producing a small amount of coal for heritage railways.
I'm wondering if you have considered NSW and Qld Black coal? Pick the right mine and you'll get the right quality! That being said some of the steam engines including English built engines in Australia are running on used oil, vegetable and otherwise! Those groups could possibly be of some assistance with converting your engine to oil firing!
I read of a successful experiment with using torrefied wood on a 15" gauge track in the USA. I'm sure is was the University of Minnesota's Natural Resources Research Institute who did it, but the concept seems to have fizzled. I'm sure ordinary white wood pellets can't do the job, but has anyone tried making suitably sized black ones?
Not sure how much smoke/pollutants it would generate but someone was telling me the other day about a process which involves solidifying waste engine oil into rock hard lumps and breaking it into chunks (the basic process has been adapted for solidifying waste cooking oil as an alternative to pouring it down the drain) Assuming there was a good energy yield from it, I wonder whether this might be of interest to explore?
Could heritage railways club together and buy the raw unprocessed Welsh Steam Coal and process it themselves? I don't suppose the reuired plant would be that large or sophisticated to handle the small volumes that are needed.
Nice thought, but as they said in the video, the mine can only operate until next April at the latest. It's not a question of the mine not caring about heritage use anymore, it's about the cost of repairing the equipment Vs the maximum 12 months of use
This was very interesting and educational. My friend and I talk about this all the time, sometimes having a laugh at the fact that the GWR engines will struggle because of the poor quality coal (sorry GWR). What would be interesting, is with all the coal fired powerplants, and their demands, if they were to be, replaced with a greater power less CO2 producing fuel, you open up huge amounts of tonnage to the heritage sector. This is an interesting discussion, and my friends and I often wonder "What engines will perform well in the coal crisis and what engines from the past that are new builds could perform well in the crisis. Tangent aside, I love this video and am eager to see where the future takes us
My guess is that wide firebox locomotives such as the Bulleids will fare the best as that design is best suited to burning low quality coal. My concern is that once power plants have been phased out and other industries turn to greener sources, the heritage sector alone will not be big enough to justify keeping commercial mines open.
@@MainlyHuman My friends and I conclude that LNWR & other more northern locomotive types would fare best because they were designed to burn anything, same with the standards and the WD locos. And you are right, that is a big concern, however, we can only go forward
The reason coal is becoming scarce is precisely because of the wholesale closure of coal power plants. As long as they were still going, local mines were still viable. Now they've gone, there's not enough demand from heritage railways to warrant continued extraction. Coal is fundamentally a business tied up in heavy industry, not tourism.
I wonder whether anyone has considered converting locos to oil burning? Seems like a more practical solution IMHO, especially considering how easy it is now to get oil from various sources
In the day they used coal with slack. It wasn’t pretty stuff like that even on British rail. In fact the Pennsylvania RR standard freight locomotive coal was run of the mine. High volatile, 1-2% sulfur, 8-9% ash etc. We have used run of the mine in our steam locomotive on the Black River and Western RR. The main thing to worry about is clinkering and ash fusion temperature. The wash plant is to remove inorganic sulfur and rock. They do size it as well at the same time. The UP has converted to oil as are some other RR’s which to me is a shame.
@@TalyllynRailway1865 if the new fuel turns out to be all right could you possibly use it to make what coal there is in stock go a little bit further by using it on a different day? I understand it passed the test on traction engines
Here in Australia, the company I am involved with has a unique waste-to-energy management system that amongst many other things, is converting biomass to charcoal. We are working to create a "briquette" of the charcoal that has at least the equal of good quality coal in thermal capacity/efficiency. We are hoping that 2 heritage lines here in Sth Australia might be willing to test it. Easy solution and can be produced at a fraction of the price of actual coal.
Roger Waller of DLM AG Winterthur is the engineer to contact. He has developed systems for burning light oil in steam locomotives. It has many advantages over coal. Most importantly it reduces wear and tear, which is a huge benefit when running precious, fragile and lovingly restored relics. You also get about 30% more power from the locomotives. DLM also has a nice design for a 4-8-4 standard gauge tank engine equivalent to a class 37, a bargain if you can put together a minimum order for 20 units.
Anthracite is a pain to burn in a steam engine. It burns weird compared to bituminous, with random-ish frizzling. It also produces more ash and clinker. Firemen hate it, and for good reason. If you're going to burn anthracite, you'll want to have a specific firebox for it. There are several US rail lines that chose to do that on purpose, with some going so far as to show women in white dresses on their advertisements demonstrating that anthracite produces less smuts. I don't believe I've heard of railroads in the UK doing the same.
A example of how bad coal can affect the engines is to look at the Balvano train disaster one of the main factors was bad quality coal and it affects the power of the engines
I know one heritage railway that has coverted steamengines that burn heating oil. Its the VSM in the Netherlands BR. And if that coal and heating oil is banned in the future is Propane als a solution.
I would be curious to see the carbon emissions of all the heritage railways' locomotives compared to the carbon emissions of the various vehicles the people use to get to the railways. I am very definitely in favor of land conservation, wilderness preservation, and outdoor recreation, but I do often think about how opening a new preserve or a new trail system may cause more people to travel further, therefore using more resources and putting more pressure on the general environment in the process of protecting the specific one and letting people enjoy it.
Waste Vegetable Oil is a great alternative to coal. The Grand Canyon Railway managed to convert their two steam engines #4960 and eventually #29 to run on it and they both run really well and clean, even cleaner than the diesels.
The problem is the amount of water in the mines that need pumping out of the mines. Modern coal fired power stations are fired on coal dust which complicates things.
Does anyone know how the Keighley and Worth Valley Railway are getting on with the bio coal trials with the standard Ivatt loco? The Severn Valley Railway have managed to obtain some coal from Kazakhstan but the quality isn't great according to other railways. I think preserved railways need to look at managing trains a bit better now we have this coal shortage as most of the larger lines like the SVR and NYMR tend to run large 8 coach trains even if the carriages aren't filled to full capacity on certain non special events days. It would make sense to drop two carriages off the services if there isn't much foot fall. Obviously gala's and special events days will require the longer coach formations. Also has Chris got some rare teak timber as the SVR could do with some for a LNER teak being restored.
As a ex fireman, wood burns too quick, + produces too much ash, & not enough heat, as for charcoal its a by product of burning wood! Ok for BBQ's of course the by product of sausages on a BBQ is charcoal.
@@MrVinnyh wood is not economical for the Standard gauge, but with fire boxes this small they would have great success with burning a hardwood like oak or almond (idk what the situation over the pond is but out here in California we have an almost overabundance of high quality almond wood from the various orchards that have to replant there trees every 20 years). They my have to enlarge the blast nozzle to reduce the draft (wood needs WAY less air then coal). My 7.5" gauge Little Engines American 4-4-0 is a wood burner but the design was meant for coal, works fine and can make it almost 1/2 a mile on a full firebox without stoking.
@@richardcowley4087 but do we actually need the highest quality fuel? It's not like these locomotives are slogging it out on 300mile runs, most steam locomotives today just need to make it up the line and back again pulling a light train.
Perhaps one small benefit of the current geopolitical situation, is UK government might look again at its own fuel production. For those who grew up in coal mining areas, it's difficult to believe all viable fields dried up in 1985.
Worth investigating Livio Dante Portra's work on improving the efficiency of steam locomotives. His Gas Producer Combustion System showed you could save on coal by improving the combustion of the fuel by modifying how air travels through the firebox, meaning more coal is burnt up in the firebox rather than being blasted out at high speeds through the boiler tubes and blast pipe, which of course affects the lifetime of a boiler. His work also demonstrated you could use any solid fuel as an alternative to coal with such a system.
there's a great difference between burning 3000 tons of coal, and 30 Million tons, but if no one wants to mine it then you have to look at other options, i wonder what the steel industry will do without a local source?
Unfortunately not all coal's equal. there is a new mine being opened, but the coal they're mining basically produces naught but clinker. the heat producing coal needed for locomotives and power stations and until it was banned, heating peoples homes, that requires a different kind of coal, the kind that the UK government's stopping mining.
@@bluebellsalmon You still need a source of carbon to produce steel even with an electric arc furnace. Electric arc furnaces just remove the need to burn it.
@@bluebellsalmon It's exceedingly expensive to refine iron ore without a carbon source, and coked coal happens to be excellent for this. A carbon source generates carbon monoxide, which reacts with the iron oxide to produce iron and CO2. it also helps to reduce the melting point of the iron, making it easier to work with, and ultimately cheaper to work with because it doesn't need to be as hot to be a liquid. Until this process was developed, iron was expensive, and quite hard to extract.
So that’s the end of Welsh coal then? Kinda sad really, but all good things come to an end eventually… and while it’s good that you can get other coal from Europe & Columbia, you might be able to get some from Australia, we’ve got decent coal down here, and if our heritage railways’ steam locos can run on it just fine, if it comes to it then it could work for the locos up in the UK too, I mean, if Dolgoch’s cousin from down under ballaraat can, (despite the fact that it’s been sitting on display for years) it might be worth a go
I was at Stewart's Lane in London a few years ago when the Tornado was being coaled. The coal came from Russia. Has that changed in light of the Ukrainian situation?
A crazy idea that comes to me is to pioneer mixing together various materials to copy the effects of coal close enough but without actually using coal… a mix of ash, combustible oils, and solids something that can be sourced- I would hope- economically the idea being to Taylor the mix to the engine in question Failing that, I’m down with spilling into doing work alongside heritage tasks to earn needed funds. I’m also curious about the options to make needed conversions to the engines for either alternate fuel use or (the historical violation) actually making the locomotives more efficient if at all by wedding new tech onto them.
I spent a day with a house coal buyer in Columbia back about 1995. He was buying coal by the vessel load. The coal was about 4% ash, but they took it all back to England and washed it. They sold it by the bag and if any bag had a stone in it, every neighbor would tell the other "don't buy that coal. Its got stone in it" and they would end up losing money on the whole shipment. He lit a fire on the beach to see how many sparks popped out.
I suspect that coal AND diesel might have had their day. There are envious eyes measuring up various heritage railways for tram use or "mixed usage" paths. East Lancashire Railway has the local councils pushing for either an extension to the metrolink system or a commuter railway and the Severn Valley has has similar proposals. The Wensleydale railway might not get rebuilt fully because the Hawes to Garsdale line has been subject to scrutiny and its an either-or situation with a heritage line OR a mixed use path....there's not an option for the trackbed to be used for both. Are heritage railways going to be here in ten years time?
you should do a time line for coal this is what we used at the start then this is what we used before the lock down and this is what we use today the evolution of coal been fazed out of steam trains :(
Has there been consideration of converting a few engines to run off oil like some steam engines in America do? Union Pacific and Grand Canyon are two that really come to mind as inspiration for that. The latter even designed theirs to run off of recycled oil and even vegetable oil.
@@thoughtengine I was actually referring to all of British preservation, my bad for not clarifying, but I can see how that would work better for the Talyllyn.
Oil conversation are probably gonna become the norm when nobody can get coal the Pennsylvania RR t1 project in the future is being designed to be converted to oil when the time comes but it will be coal fired for the time being and then there is the Grand Canyon railway which runs there steamer on vegetable oil and apparently runs quite well
At the end of the day, the amount of coal in the ground is finite...the stuff that is economically feasible to get to, even more so. The silver lining though, with steam engines, anything that will burn hot enough in the firebox will work...the issue is what makes the most sense from an economical and practical standpoint. I even read a story in an old "Trains" magazine that recalled one particular engine crew having a particularly bad load of coal, and not enough of it. Their route passed by an old tire dump. They stacked the tender and footplate with old tires and had no steaming issues for the rest of their run! The shop crew was not pleased when it came time to clean the grates, however, and it smelled horrible. So, I wouldn't worry too much about whether steam engines will be able to continue to run...it's just that they might not be able to run on coal forever.
I don't know if anyone at the railway is still checking these comments on such an old video, but if you need another source of quality coal, you might see if it's possible to import Pennsylvania anthracite, I've seen reports from old steam ships that it was nearly as good for raising steam as Welsh anthracite, and I don't envision Pennsylvania stopping mining any time soon
I have tried it on a 12-inch gauge railway in Australia, burning the windfall wood that falls off native gum trees in large quantities. The locos steam really well, although the volume of wood required is greater than that of coal, so the effort to fire the loco is greater. The loco bunkers also have to be replenished more often than with coal. Scaling it up to standard gauge might be more challenging due to the large volumes of wood that would need to be sourced, cut, dried, stored, carried on the locos and fed into the firebox.
I talk to tourist at Pichi Richi here in south Australia about coal and difference between Black and Brown coal. But coal being scared our country be interesting and this is a interesting video.
The Pichi Richi railway is an excellent attraction, well worth the visit! I always liked the "Coffee Pot". The geology on display along the line is also incredible (i'm a geologist, so am biased!)
I can't understand the logic of importing coal, the importation will add to the carbon footprint (unless it's coming by sailing ship), and that new stuff in plastic bags is adding to the problem or can it be delivered in loose bulk) If a small welsh mine can't be used (like a private mine owner), then what is the duture. An alternative happened during the war in switzerland when they couldn't get coal, but had an excess of electricity, they installed electric heaters into the exiting boilers, search for 'electric steam engine', the 'train of thought' channel also covered it.
Hey I know this may sounds dumb but, the Germans and the Swiss tried to incorporate electricity and Steam powered engines together with the electric power heating the boiler. Wouldn't it be a nice replacement for coal?
@@ethandouro4334 It's feasible to use electricity simply to pre-heat the water overnight to get the boiler hot, but not to heat the water when the loco is actually on the move, which is when most of the coal is used.
There was no mention of Bosnia and Herzegovina, where there are coal mines which are operating. They also use the coal there to operate Steam Engines, for shunting duties and taking coal to the main line.please investigate it may be an opportunity.
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
The 'negative impact' of burning coal on heritage railways is really relatively low. It may be a major user of coal now, but compared with pollution in general and old-time coal pollution, it is a drop in the ocean. As you say, its use also educates the younger generations.
You're quite right of course, but then again everyone says that about their passion or hobby, be it motorcycling, racing sports or otherwise. We have to start at our own front door and try to do what we can do.
I am seeing the bio coal tests are now happening at the Keighley and Worth Valley Railway with one of their larger locomotives and a five carriage train.
Seem to remember a previous video on the NYMR page with Chris their GM who said all heritage steam railways in the world equates to about 2.5% of the global coal emissions. So it's a tiny amount, but still if they are going to continue using it then carbon offsetting needs to be considered!
@@sudrianliam1199 It's true tough. All of Europe could switch to 0% carbon emissions and it would make basically no difference given how much comes from China and India.
@@sudrianliam1199 ya but most hobbies aren't engineered hundred ton boilers made to run on coal
Has the Heritage sector considered pooling their resources and buying a mine to operate for the heritage railways of the country?
And maybe for other heritage railways across Europe?
See this is a better idea.
Problem is that Welsh coal is the best type for steam locomotives. And as they said in the video that mine has reached the end of its life (as the Welsh government are stopping mining for coal). So unless they stockpiled years of their supply or got the government to change their mind its a lot harder than it sounds!
Brilliant
@@rjwinterqwerty I believe they mean privately mining without government involvement.
It is a massive shame the Welsh Government cannot see the wood for the trees. It is insane that we have plenty of good quality coal in our country but due to the want to been seen as green, heritage railways have to import coal from abroad and more of it at a higher cost, having a bigger impact on CO2 emissions, while losing money from the Welsh economy and people's livelihoods. Great video.
Tower collieries was the last deep coal mine and it closed in 2010.. there are some surface mines [you can check my channel for video of one] but steam coal is deep coal.. bituminous .. the deepest coal.
Too much red tape too much modernisation for the old mines and too much expense
@@julesdingle No, dry steam coal isn't bituminous. Coal is on a sliding scale of hardness and carbon content. After turf, you get a soft brown coal called lignite (this used to power Germany's power stations) then sub bituminous (Which I have never seen nor handled) then bituminous is/was the vast majority of British coal. Wales produced the highest quality fuel of all, anthracite and a fuel with a slightly lower fixed carbon content, dry stream coal. Dry steam coal is still smokeless, but does combust a bit more readily than anthracite. What Ffos-y-fran is I must confess I don't know. How much is spoil reclamation and how much is opencast mining is beyond me. Bituminous coal was certainly mined by opencast methods in Britain, and I'm certain there will be opencast anthracite sites in America.
Locomotives were designed certain types of coal & may not perform well on other types or wood.
American locomotives burned everything that was handy.
Either import or convert to oil.
They had to do that in California.
Thick Douglas fir bark works good, The Anacortes railway used it as a substitute.
Blame Thatcher! Not the greens.
I'm so impressed by the straight talking style of you guys. We're going to have to face this problem with thought and consideration. I'm proud that the heritage industry is thinking so far forward in order to preserve the past. Thanks so much
If we are polluting for pleasure with heritage steam what are people going on holiday on a jet airliner doing.
You're always welcome to have some of our coal from Australia. Here in the Hunter Valley trains of between 90 and 100 hoppers pass by every half hour or so to the port of Newcastle. If there's no Welsh coal, why not coal from New South Wales? Best wishes from Aus.
That's very kind of you NSW but the Welsh probably don't want your coal. They probably want our Victorian coal from Gippsland. Maybe.
Victorian black coal is some of the worst in the country. NSW or QLD coal is far far better.
@@JGPNGEAMR But your missing one point. Our coal is Victorian and that means it's Victorian.
Cool. As a fireman on a heritage railway in Victoria I can tell you if I was ever rostered on an engine with Victorian coal I'd refuse the shift because you'd be better off burning dirt 👍
@@JGPNGEAMR well you would be missing out on the finest black dirt coal Victoria can produce. And you will be sad.
Well done, gents. Your care for the environment is clear, and you're both still bona fide steam enthusiasts! What a combo. Heritage steam railway emissions are so small in the scheme of all industry in the world.
A lot of things people do are "polluting for pleasure", and much of it happens on a much larger scale than steam railways. If we don't want to do that, we shouldn't have motorsports, driving of heritage cars, general aviation, cruise ships, flying or using any other "polluting" means of transport for holiday trips, and so on. So please don't feel bad about burning coal!
Motorsports you say! How are you going to explain that to the millions of motorsports fans globally? We can't go to electric until 2045 as Formula E Holds exclusive rights to Electric Single-Seater Motorsports. IndyCar Currently uses 85% Bioethanol from waste crops and F1 will ramp up to almost 100% Bioethanol in 2025/6 so yeah, we actually pollute very little from the engines (they are the most thermally efficient ICEs ever, it's more the aviation and logistics of Motorsports that needs looking at, and we are.
@@richardcowley4087 Then what is it? You're not too bright are you?
@@richardcowley4087 No, that would be you, my Dad is an engineer in one of the top World Endurance Championship Teams, I think he would know...
@Richard Harrold coal ash Incredibly radioactive you write nonsense
@Richard Harrold perhaps you could take some readings and let us know what they are. Also take some from plaster board I think you will surprised especially as we have plaster board in our homes.
I enjoyed that, in a funny way. informative, we used to export coal, to Poland to bring it up to a higher standard (by blending) for burning! exported from NCB Ashington in 20' open containers.
I just hope the Old Lady and her coworkers accept the other coals that you guys try. You're over 150 years old, I think you guys can work through this!
I think a colliery NEEDS to be re opened. We can't keep getting it from overseas.
Even open one as a heratage attraction in its own right (like Big Pit)
Just one that still extracts coal on a small scale and sells the resulting steam coal to the heratage sector. (can also turn the fines into briquettes and sell them to narroboaters etc)
@@dasy2k1 The cost would be astronomical.
Thank you both for that pragmatic and educational insight into the challenges that running a business on the black stuff brings
And again. We close an industry to reduce emisions, forcing it overseas where we need to transport the product and have no control over the emisions produced by that industry.
It’s the meat vs the avocado argument again and again the same as that argument your not wrong shut down the coal sector so it can’t be used to pollute yet you’re causing more pollution because then it’s got to be shipped in which means more pollution on top of what the original would have been same with councils penny pinching by not cleaning the storm drains…
It didn't close because of that. It closed because there is not enough demand for coal to merit the high prices that it costs to extract it in the UK. Short of putting tariffs on imported coal just to support heritage railways, there isn't really much can be done.
Who would of thought we’d run out of the black stuff for our steam trains 🙄 What a fantastic explanation by two gentleman with a passion for steam 🤩
We're only running out of it because of some green wankers and their bullshit ideas.
@@zebrashark23 and don’t forget that of courses as usual it’s the little people doing all the leg work
What a well balanced and well presented insight to the coal issues, thanks for sharing
Worrying times. A very informative and well balanced film, accepting that things have to change.
Thank you. An interesting, informative and well presented video. The mind boggles at the thought of having to import coal. Sounds like the whole steam rail industry needs to act as a single buyer to get the best price... and/or open a heritage working mine in Wales :-)
Question: How big is the coal need for heritage railways as a lum sum? If it’s a large amount, maybe importing from the states could be an option?
I've learned alot about coal from this video. Thanks!!
Thanks fellas for a great summing up of the coal situation. It also affects the miniature rail scene where some of the smokeless fuels are no longer available.
Question: Is it about time to look at improved combustion techniques. Rosebud grates for fine coals, more secondary air, possible gas producer combustion and optimised drafting?
Just this week on a miniature 7.25" gauge loco we made improvements to the drafting. The loco steamed poorly and smoked excessively but because we had been burning a smokeless fuel the loco seemed OK a change of coal showed up the problem. We found the stack diameter was too large for the blast nozzle so a temporary sleeve was make of "aluminium", we had it on hand! Success, no trouble keeping up pressure and significantly reduced smoke.
Qa
I don’t know what the logistics of importing coal from the United States would be on top of all the legalities but we still have plenty of coal here in Kentucky and next-door in West Virginia so dependent on factors you could get it from here. Hope to visit someday. Cheers!
Its interesting to see this problem, coming from the Western USA (Nevada/California) all our steam locomotives burn oil or wood, hardly any coal burners out here infact they are outlawed in California. At the Nevada County Narrow Gauge museum (I sort of consider the Talyllyn of California) we run a 0-4-0 porter locomotive, it originally burned coal but we find great success burning oak (great abundance out here) the firebox cant be that much larger then Dolgoch's anyway. I also own and run a 7.5" gauge 1.5" scale Little Engines American, with a great area of about 20"sq using exclusively Almond wood with great success, infact it runs better on wood then on coal! Although the coal was low quality and the blast was to week so it didn't burn properly.
Food for thought I guess! Sad to see it go though.
It's a nice idea and I know that it works well in the States, but I think one of the issues with wood burners, at least over here, is that they cause a lot of sparks, which in turn cause lineside fires - and heritage railways in the UK get fined for causing lineside fires and having the fire brigade come out to stop them - this is why on hot summer days it's often diesels that haul the trains, and at the very least there's extra safety checks at the engine sheds before the locomotives go out; this is mitigated somewhat by spark arrestor meshes in the smokebox, but not to the extent of the large spark-arresting chimneys common on US railroads - also, and although I'm no expert, there's probably a difference in the chemical composition between coal and wood, which might have an impact on the boiler and tubes. Plus, larger railways with longer runs may not have the storage capacity to burn all that wood.
Oil is another option, and there were some locomotives in the UK (Ffestiniog comes to mind) which burned oil, however, that comes with its own issues - not least of which is that none of the Talyllyn steam locos (to my knowledge) ever burned oil, and to get them to do this would require significant modifications. This isn't to even consider the economic and environmental issues of burning mineral oil - and given recent events oil will be a scarcer commodity; and probably very expensive.
There's not really much heritage railways can really do in this situation - I think the future is likely to be in biocoal, and possibly more use of biodiesel/waste vegetable oil in an oil-burner type arrangement (ironically, like the Disneyland Railroad), with maybe some wood burning thrown in for good measure; however all this needs money, materials and people's time - things the heritage railway sector in the UK is often short on.
However, the real caveat here is that I am only an observer, and my knowledge on this topic is really limited - it would be helpful to actually have a few mechanical engineers weigh in on this, because there's plenty of scope for me to have made errors here.
@@theenigmaticst7572 Yes Lineside fires are a big problem out here in the dry west, Look at the Durango & Silverton as an example, there converting all there locomotives to oil because of the dangers. But low quality coal sparks just as much in my experience. Spark arrestors are a must, but they can be fitted in the smoke box or ontop of the chimney. As for chemical differences, there are very little to none in terms of added corrosion, infact it is my opinion that wood is way easier for maintenance purposes because it doesn't burn up the grates, produce clinker or ash up the tubes when its burning well.
Again this is just my experience with locomotives like Glenbrook, Inyo and My American, it may not be as simple as I think. The nice thing about steam and especially heritage steam is that trying new fuels is easy, Just try and burn biodiesel in a petrol engine for example. I figure it cant hurt to try for these lines it seems the worst possible outcome (provided they take saftey precautions) is a few cords of cordwood sitting in the bunker.
@@johnkuzma7066 Wood firing on larger engines would be a major issue. The INYO, GLENBROOK, and EUREKA are quite small and traditionally operate a low speeds. Some large Brazilian wood burners were operated, but I would think it would be difficult to operate say a superheated 9F let alone a mainline engine such as the DUCHESS OF SUTHERLAND or CLUN CASTLE on wood. The heat and steaming properties just wood not be there. As for oil, look at the cost and I fear it will get even worse relatively soon. Now the recycled oils may still be available for a similar price, but fuel oils and diesel oils as some operations burn may get very expensive. Used motor oil and fryer oils would still be available I assume though. The cost of converting locomotives could add up quite quickly however, especially if there was not an existing burner design for a classmate or similar locomotive in terms of firebox size and working statistics.
@@jacobwoods8738 yes wood isn't a solution for the big engines but for the Talyllyn it would work quite well I'd bet. Fire boxes are small enough and the run short enough it would probably work, wether or not it would be more economical than coal is dependent on wether or not they can even get coal in the future.
@@jacobwoods8738 also we have to consider the length of run on Heritage lines, your not going 100miles running tonnage at 60mph it's far easier to try out new fuels when the penalty for failure is a few extra cordes of wood (that could be used for fireing up in the morning if it didn't work) and a few unhappy passengers that had to get a locomotive change in the middle of the road. (An adventure that would certainly have me coming back to the railway if handled well).
Have you looked for a source here in America. We have several steam heritage railroads that use coal here in America/
I hope you guys solve this coal problem and continue running! I will praying for you, and God bless! I would think God would be saddened in seeing steam locomotive operations suddenly halted.
From what I've read recently the East Lancashire Railway have said that steam locomotives will only be used on special occasions such as their dining car trains and galas and their main haulage will be diesel powered from now on.
There are probably enough traction enthusiasts for whom diesel power represents history, to pull it off. It may be that heritage railways restored as a way of preserving steam, will only see steam locos on high days and jolidays.
Another good and interesting video Stewart thank you. Also interesting to hear about coal from the NYMR point of view.
Glad you enjoyed it
If you can offset through Carbon Sequestration could it be still got that way?
The main challenge will be getting coal of an appropriate size. For most customers mines just pulverize it to powder. Heritage railways simply don't have the buying power to influence a mine unless the mine is being nice.
I may not be a bleak future for steam both the bure valley railway and keightley and worth valley railway have been testing this new eco biocoal and its proving to be a success so hopefully that fuel source will be the future for heritage railways
It's sad to hear that alternative sources of coal are so far away. Even with economy of scale the ecological impact of importing it must surely be higher than sourcing locally, particularly if it's lower quality. I'm interested to hear how the trial of eco coal goes.
What about electricity? Just make the boilers attacked to a very big battery heating the water
@@ethandouro4334 this has sort of been done before by the Swiss I believe, it wasn't very efficient and electricity and water doesn't mix, theres a few videos about it on RUclips
@@CustomiZe_ yes the swiss tried to do that, why don't we try to improve the technology in favor of preserving steam engines while both being ecological? Electricity, Coal, Wood, Oil, any things go... What about gas tho?
@@ethandouro4334 well to be honest with you, there isn't an ecological method that is sufficient enough to fire steam locos, solar and wind won't be reliable enough. Batteries won't be powerful enough and effective enough to last all day. Plus it will all be incredibly expensive. As much as it pains me to say it but heritage railways are only just surviving and one day heritage railways will just become static museums. Vegetable oil could possibly work but i would imagine its not hot enough same as wood.
@@CustomiZe_ well then, I guess the herietage railways such as Talyllyn should actually try to be an normal railway and have services for people who lives there, all the talyllyn stations I have seen so far leads to nowhere and that could change if they create a mine or a factory of some short. Do what China did with Xinjiang, preserve the railway even afterwards the coal mining company closed it's door, just open for tuorism and charity I guess. It would be such a shame to see such beautyful machines static at the rails and never on touch again... I'm no boiler professional of some short or whatsoever, but there is still a need to find for preservation of these machines and prevent them from becoming static or imortalized as characters in Thomas the Tank Engine stories of some short. China and India have done a great job preserving it's old railways by simply using their steam locomotives as not only for tourism but also for hardwork in case there is no train availabe.
I guess we can actually wish for a better solution for Coal and the heating problem of locomotives... Maybe Plastic? I don't think it would be healthy to just simply throw rubbish inside a firebox of an engine, but would it help at least?
If the company producing ecoal is keen on developing their products for the heritage railway industry, then I think it would be a worthwhile investment. The railway I volunteer at currently doesn’t run passenger services, or have a working steam loco, so I think it would be interesting to see how a heritage railway would work using new technologies from its very opening day. I wouldn’t mind the increase in price, but it’s just what the family visitors and the old “keyboard warriors” think (not that they latter would even pay for a train ticket in the first place)
I know the Keighley and Worth Valley Railway are now trialling the ecoal bio coal with a large locomotive hauling the average 5 coach train they tend to haul
The railway that is powered by those who have worked and lived on the railway want to see and keep this little railway in the hills going
For anyone who thinks that oil burning locomotives do not make black smoke... well they do, and often in more impressive amounts. Especially when you need to clean out the tar residue from the burners.
In the Netherlands there is also an experiment with bio coal, with the main issue being the increased volume needed for the same amount of heat. Which could be an issue for mainline steam and british loading gauge
To all of us who love steam this a major problem but it has to be solved so we can preserve steam for the future generations. Real coal must be used.
Excellent and informative video, thank you.
Is there any sort of future for biocoal, obviously it would need development and refinement, but could it be used effectively on heritage steam trains?
I still think that something the UK railroads could maybe find useful is follow what some US railroads did which was burn oil.
Yes it still produces co2 but it typically burns a lot cleaner so you don’t have the ash and soot like coal
Plus it has the benefit of being acquired from multiple ways, you could buy fuel oil
But something US railroads have done is that some of them burn oil that was made from used cooking oil and the railroad I help at gets it’s fuel oil from used motor oil that was filtered
So while in some cases like England even though burning oil isn’t original, it could likely be cheaper to burn and since it can come from different types of used oil your able to essentially reuse someone else waste oil
If it were viable. We've tried several times over the decades and it's never really worked. If the big four (LNER, LMS, GWR and Southern) couldn't make it work I doubt a small line with small margins have a hope with oil. We simply don't have Union Pacifics resources over here.
@@rockacraig5653
You don’t need Union Pacific resources
The railroad I help at is a non profit and around six miles of track but we run an oil burner and am able to order used motor oil for our locomotive
@@rockacraig5653 The GWR locomotives worked better with oil than with coal. The Swiss mountain railways bought new steam locomotives in 1993 which run on light oil. They turned out to be more efficient than their diesel locomotives.
@ Evidence? The calorific value of coal is unpredictable and lower than oil. Some of the coal is not burned and ends up in the smoke box or goes straight up the chimney.
Coal produces ash and clinker which has to be got rid of, acid gas which damages the firebox, and grit which damages the boiler, cylinders and other parts of the locomotives.
Coal is not the best of fuels.
how much is a bag of this stuff getting sold for? I remember seeing a advert for it in a Great Dorset steam fair show guide
interesting to hear about the ways you're trying to face the challenges, good to know the national body are also involved in trying to organise a system. One wonders if it's the sort of thing where an international alliance would be effective, with heritage groups across Europe clubbing together to buy coal from one or two high quality sources within Europe. Creating enough concentrated demand for mines to stay operational. You mention Polish coal being good quality for instance; and they're keen to keep their large coal industry alive for as long as possible as they begrudgingly slowly move away from coal power plants.
The thing about steam is, you can theoretically burn anything for fuel. I think this is not so much a problem as an opportunity for innovation. It's just a matter of finding what burns cleanly and efficiently and is economical for Heritage lines to acquire.
That's true. There's still issues involved because this is Britain; the United States had more diverse fueling options throughout its steam history because it had (and has) huge forests, oil fields, and coal beds that made it economical. Narrow gauge railroads in the US could just cut down trees as they built the line and turn right around to throw them into the firebox.
You can alternatively burn nothing, using an electric, maybe induction heating element. It would require overhead catenary wires, transformer equipment, and pantographs, but it would work. Switzerland did this during WW2 because their coal supply chain was cut off.
Mackwell claims his new boiler design can run a steam engine on wood. So maybe it's not just about choosing a new fuel, but also modifying, or changing boilers to match the fuel as well. Which as boilers need to be replaced from time to time anyway, would perhaps not be an unreasonable long term stratagy. and testing new steam tech, is a long tradition in narrow gauge.
You would also need a far larger firebox, tender, and ash-pan. You can burn wood, but it's not exactly a simple conversion!
You can't convert the existing fleet in any way, that defeats their entire purpose.
If coal can’t be used maybe oil could be used like the trains at Disney land they run in old vegetable oil from the restaurants and the trains still run on steam
no.
Oh god no, converting the fleet to oil would be messy and just not proper, these are very important locomotives for a large part of the world, yes we would love to see them run but I’d rather have them stationary then have them on oil
I wonder if Wales could permit "heritage coal processing" facilities which, similar to heritage railways, demonstrate industrial-revolution practices for educational purposes, while also actually producing a small amount of coal for heritage railways.
I'm wondering if you have considered NSW and Qld Black coal? Pick the right mine and you'll get the right quality! That being said some of the steam engines including English built engines in Australia are running on used oil, vegetable and otherwise! Those groups could possibly be of some assistance with converting your engine to oil firing!
I read of a successful experiment with using torrefied wood on a 15" gauge track in the USA. I'm sure is was the University of Minnesota's Natural Resources Research Institute who did it, but the concept seems to have fizzled.
I'm sure ordinary white wood pellets can't do the job, but has anyone tried making suitably sized black ones?
I saw that vid too. It was very encouraging. There is some torrified wood left over from an experiment I think, in Holland.
Not sure how much smoke/pollutants it would generate but someone was telling me the other day about a process which involves solidifying waste engine oil into rock hard lumps and breaking it into chunks (the basic process has been adapted for solidifying waste cooking oil as an alternative to pouring it down the drain)
Assuming there was a good energy yield from it, I wonder whether this might be of interest to explore?
What about Australian coal? Hunter valley and nomi valley call is great steam coal that what we use in ours back home
Could heritage railways club together and buy the raw unprocessed Welsh Steam Coal and process it themselves? I don't suppose the reuired plant would be that large or sophisticated to handle the small volumes that are needed.
Nice thought, but as they said in the video, the mine can only operate until next April at the latest. It's not a question of the mine not caring about heritage use anymore, it's about the cost of repairing the equipment Vs the maximum 12 months of use
This was very interesting and educational. My friend and I talk about this all the time, sometimes having a laugh at the fact that the GWR engines will struggle because of the poor quality coal (sorry GWR). What would be interesting, is with all the coal fired powerplants, and their demands, if they were to be, replaced with a greater power less CO2 producing fuel, you open up huge amounts of tonnage to the heritage sector. This is an interesting discussion, and my friends and I often wonder "What engines will perform well in the coal crisis and what engines from the past that are new builds could perform well in the crisis. Tangent aside, I love this video and am eager to see where the future takes us
My guess is that wide firebox locomotives such as the Bulleids will fare the best as that design is best suited to burning low quality coal. My concern is that once power plants have been phased out and other industries turn to greener sources, the heritage sector alone will not be big enough to justify keeping commercial mines open.
@@MainlyHuman My friends and I conclude that LNWR & other more northern locomotive types would fare best because they were designed to burn anything, same with the standards and the WD locos. And you are right, that is a big concern, however, we can only go forward
In WW2 coal shortages, UK locos sometimes had to burn briquettes, which gave off all kinds of nasty chemicals to footplate crew and steamed badly.
GWR converted some locomotives to oil firing in 1946. It was very successful. The engines were more powerful with oil.
The reason coal is becoming scarce is precisely because of the wholesale closure of coal power plants. As long as they were still going, local mines were still viable. Now they've gone, there's not enough demand from heritage railways to warrant continued extraction. Coal is fundamentally a business tied up in heavy industry, not tourism.
I wonder whether anyone has considered converting locos to oil burning? Seems like a more practical solution IMHO, especially considering how easy it is now to get oil from various sources
Been done many times over the 20th Century.
@@neiloflongbeck5705 indeed & with some impressive results as well... Surprised it hasn't taken off over here more
In the day they used coal with slack. It wasn’t pretty stuff like that even on British rail. In fact the Pennsylvania RR standard freight locomotive coal was run of the mine. High volatile, 1-2% sulfur, 8-9% ash etc. We have used run of the mine in our steam locomotive on the Black River and Western RR. The main thing to worry about is clinkering and ash fusion temperature. The wash plant is to remove inorganic sulfur and rock. They do size it as well at the same time. The UP has converted to oil as are some other RR’s which to me is a shame.
You need to burn zero-emission Rainbow Unicorn Dust, like the Chinese power stations do.
You can also form briquettes from their manure
Coudnt the heritage railways adopt the coal washing plant as part of the history of coal and repair it as a working exhibit?
Have you guys thought about oil or vegeoil to run the locomotives. Like in the Grand Canyon railroad.
It's not got to that yet!!
@Talyllyn Railway does this mean that you will be running less steam engines
Is the 👍 a yes or a no
We will still be running as normal this year and hopefully for a few more to come
@@TalyllynRailway1865 if the new fuel turns out to be all right could you possibly use it to make what coal there is in stock go a little bit further by using it on a different day? I understand it passed the test on traction engines
Visited both during 2021 and look forward to doing so again in 2022....
Here in Australia, the company I am involved with has a unique waste-to-energy management system that amongst many other things, is converting biomass to charcoal. We are working to create a "briquette" of the charcoal that has at least the equal of good quality coal in thermal capacity/efficiency. We are hoping that 2 heritage lines here in Sth Australia might be willing to test it. Easy solution and can be produced at a fraction of the price of actual coal.
Roger Waller of DLM AG Winterthur is the engineer to contact. He has developed systems for burning light oil in steam locomotives. It has many advantages over coal. Most importantly it reduces wear and tear, which is a huge benefit when running precious, fragile and lovingly restored relics. You also get about 30% more power from the locomotives.
DLM also has a nice design for a 4-8-4 standard gauge tank engine equivalent to a class 37, a bargain if you can put together a minimum order for 20 units.
I use Welsh Anthrancite for all my heating/hot water and most cooking it comes from the Neath small mines.
Anthracite is a pain to burn in a steam engine. It burns weird compared to bituminous, with random-ish frizzling. It also produces more ash and clinker. Firemen hate it, and for good reason.
If you're going to burn anthracite, you'll want to have a specific firebox for it. There are several US rail lines that chose to do that on purpose, with some going so far as to show women in white dresses on their advertisements demonstrating that anthracite produces less smuts. I don't believe I've heard of railroads in the UK doing the same.
A example of how bad coal can affect the engines is to look at the Balvano train disaster one of the main factors was bad quality coal and it affects the power of the engines
I know one heritage railway that has coverted steamengines that burn heating oil. Its the VSM in the Netherlands BR. And if that coal and heating oil is banned in the future is Propane als a solution.
How well does plastic burn?
I would be curious to see the carbon emissions of all the heritage railways' locomotives compared to the carbon emissions of the various vehicles the people use to get to the railways. I am very definitely in favor of land conservation, wilderness preservation, and outdoor recreation, but I do often think about how opening a new preserve or a new trail system may cause more people to travel further, therefore using more resources and putting more pressure on the general environment in the process of protecting the specific one and letting people enjoy it.
Waste Vegetable Oil is a great alternative to coal. The Grand Canyon Railway managed to convert their two steam engines #4960 and eventually #29 to run on it and they both run really well and clean, even cleaner than the diesels.
A Heritage coal mine would be the sensible option, and South Wales the best place? Is there still good stuff down there?
The problem is the amount of water in the mines that need pumping out of the mines.
Modern coal fired power stations are fired on coal dust which complicates things.
Does anyone know how the Keighley and Worth Valley Railway are getting on with the bio coal trials with the standard Ivatt loco?
The Severn Valley Railway have managed to obtain some coal from Kazakhstan but the quality isn't great according to other railways. I think preserved railways need to look at managing trains a bit better now we have this coal shortage as most of the larger lines like the SVR and NYMR tend to run large 8 coach trains even if the carriages aren't filled to full capacity on certain non special events days. It would make sense to drop two carriages off the services if there isn't much foot fall. Obviously gala's and special events days will require the longer coach formations.
Also has Chris got some rare teak timber as the SVR could do with some for a LNER teak being restored.
For a moment I wondered if the engines could run on charcoal or wood.
You would need to radically redesign the fireboxes, ashpans, and tenders.
As a ex fireman, wood burns too quick, + produces too much ash, & not enough heat, as for charcoal its a by product of burning wood! Ok for BBQ's of course the by product of sausages on a BBQ is charcoal.
@@MrVinnyh wood is not economical for the Standard gauge, but with fire boxes this small they would have great success with burning a hardwood like oak or almond (idk what the situation over the pond is but out here in California we have an almost overabundance of high quality almond wood from the various orchards that have to replant there trees every 20 years). They my have to enlarge the blast nozzle to reduce the draft (wood needs WAY less air then coal). My 7.5" gauge Little Engines American 4-4-0 is a wood burner but the design was meant for coal, works fine and can make it almost 1/2 a mile on a full firebox without stoking.
@@richardcowley4087 but do we actually need the highest quality fuel? It's not like these locomotives are slogging it out on 300mile runs, most steam locomotives today just need to make it up the line and back again pulling a light train.
Perhaps one small benefit of the current geopolitical situation, is UK government might look again at its own fuel production. For those who grew up in coal mining areas, it's difficult to believe all viable fields dried up in 1985.
Worth investigating Livio Dante Portra's work on improving the efficiency of steam locomotives. His Gas Producer Combustion System showed you could save on coal by improving the combustion of the fuel by modifying how air travels through the firebox, meaning more coal is burnt up in the firebox rather than being blasted out at high speeds through the boiler tubes and blast pipe, which of course affects the lifetime of a boiler. His work also demonstrated you could use any solid fuel as an alternative to coal with such a system.
there's a great difference between burning 3000 tons of coal, and 30 Million tons, but if no one wants to mine it then you have to look at other options, i wonder what the steel industry will do without a local source?
Unfortunately not all coal's equal. there is a new mine being opened, but the coal they're mining basically produces naught but clinker. the heat producing coal needed for locomotives and power stations and until it was banned, heating peoples homes, that requires a different kind of coal, the kind that the UK government's stopping mining.
>i wonder what the steel industry will do without a local source?
Go back to what they used to use. Charcoal. Or produce coke in other ways.
@@VestedUTuber In the longer term the steel industry will be investing in electric arc furnaces, as already used in some steel plants.
@@bluebellsalmon
You still need a source of carbon to produce steel even with an electric arc furnace. Electric arc furnaces just remove the need to burn it.
@@bluebellsalmon It's exceedingly expensive to refine iron ore without a carbon source, and coked coal happens to be excellent for this. A carbon source generates carbon monoxide, which reacts with the iron oxide to produce iron and CO2. it also helps to reduce the melting point of the iron, making it easier to work with, and ultimately cheaper to work with because it doesn't need to be as hot to be a liquid. Until this process was developed, iron was expensive, and quite hard to extract.
So that’s the end of Welsh coal then? Kinda sad really, but all good things come to an end eventually… and while it’s good that you can get other coal from Europe & Columbia, you might be able to get some from Australia, we’ve got decent coal down here, and if our heritage railways’ steam locos can run on it just fine, if it comes to it then it could work for the locos up in the UK too, I mean, if Dolgoch’s cousin from down under ballaraat can, (despite the fact that it’s been sitting on display for years) it might be worth a go
I was at Stewart's Lane in London a few years ago when the Tornado was being coaled. The coal came from Russia. Has that changed in light of the Ukrainian situation?
I live in Newcastle Australia and they export Black Gold, coal. Good steaming coal, low ash high heat, as used on 3801.🇦🇺✅
I don't know how expensive it is to import, but Australian coal is very high quality.
We should still be digging it out of the ground and selling it. There's obviously a market!
A crazy idea that comes to me is to pioneer mixing together various materials to copy the effects of coal close enough but without actually using coal… a mix of ash, combustible oils, and solids something that can be sourced- I would hope- economically the idea being to Taylor the mix to the engine in question
Failing that, I’m down with spilling into doing work alongside heritage tasks to earn needed funds. I’m also curious about the options to make needed conversions to the engines for either alternate fuel use or (the historical violation) actually making the locomotives more efficient if at all by wedding new tech onto them.
I spent a day with a house coal buyer in Columbia back about 1995. He was buying coal by the vessel load. The coal was about 4% ash, but they took it all back to England and washed it. They sold it by the bag and if any bag had a stone in it, every neighbor would tell the other "don't buy that coal. Its got stone in it" and they would end up losing money on the whole shipment. He lit a fire on the beach to see how many sparks popped out.
I suspect that coal AND diesel might have had their day.
There are envious eyes measuring up various heritage railways for tram use or "mixed usage" paths.
East Lancashire Railway has the local councils pushing for either an extension to the metrolink system or a commuter railway and the Severn Valley has has similar proposals.
The Wensleydale railway might not get rebuilt fully because the Hawes to Garsdale line has been subject to scrutiny and its an either-or situation with a heritage line OR a mixed use path....there's not an option for the trackbed to be used for both.
Are heritage railways going to be here in ten years time?
you should do a time line for coal this is what we used at the start then this is what we used before the lock down and this is what we use today the evolution of coal been fazed out of steam trains :(
Has there been consideration of converting a few engines to run off oil like some steam engines in America do? Union Pacific and Grand Canyon are two that really come to mind as inspiration for that. The latter even designed theirs to run off of recycled oil and even vegetable oil.
A better example might be the biodiesel-fired locos of Silver Dollar City? They are closer to Tallylyn locos...
@@thoughtengine I was actually referring to all of British preservation, my bad for not clarifying, but I can see how that would work better for the Talyllyn.
@@AlcoLoco251 OK
I hope ecoal works and the heritage railway can keep going
Oil conversation are probably gonna become the norm when nobody can get coal the Pennsylvania RR t1 project in the future is being designed to be converted to oil when the time comes but it will be coal fired for the time being and then there is the Grand Canyon railway which runs there steamer on vegetable oil and apparently runs quite well
It might be time to look at using alternatives. They might even be cheaper. Bio-Diesel or Ammonia?
I remember BR using briquettes but I think it was mixed with better steam coal.
Could charcoals work?
East Lancs have reduced steam locos to special days only, due to supply issues for coal, i wonder if they are involved in these discussions
At the end of the day, the amount of coal in the ground is finite...the stuff that is economically feasible to get to, even more so. The silver lining though, with steam engines, anything that will burn hot enough in the firebox will work...the issue is what makes the most sense from an economical and practical standpoint. I even read a story in an old "Trains" magazine that recalled one particular engine crew having a particularly bad load of coal, and not enough of it. Their route passed by an old tire dump. They stacked the tender and footplate with old tires and had no steaming issues for the rest of their run! The shop crew was not pleased when it came time to clean the grates, however, and it smelled horrible. So, I wouldn't worry too much about whether steam engines will be able to continue to run...it's just that they might not be able to run on coal forever.
hope the eco coal trials go okay.
Seems promising when they tryed it on kwvr standard 2 2-6-0 last month's
I don't know if anyone at the railway is still checking these comments on such an old video, but if you need another source of quality coal, you might see if it's possible to import Pennsylvania anthracite, I've seen reports from old steam ships that it was nearly as good for raising steam as Welsh anthracite, and I don't envision Pennsylvania stopping mining any time soon
Could locos be adapted to burn wood instead?
I have tried it on a 12-inch gauge railway in Australia, burning the windfall wood that falls off native gum trees in large quantities. The locos steam really well, although the volume of wood required is greater than that of coal, so the effort to fire the loco is greater. The loco bunkers also have to be replenished more often than with coal. Scaling it up to standard gauge might be more challenging due to the large volumes of wood that would need to be sourced, cut, dried, stored, carried on the locos and fed into the firebox.
I talk to tourist at Pichi Richi here in south Australia about coal and difference between Black and Brown coal. But coal being scared our country be interesting and this is a interesting video.
The Pichi Richi railway is an excellent attraction, well worth the visit! I always liked the "Coffee Pot". The geology on display along the line is also incredible (i'm a geologist, so am biased!)
@Cereal Port the coffee pot is unique and great to ride. But the 100 plus year old land hasn't changed much at all
I can't understand the logic of importing coal, the importation will add to the carbon footprint (unless it's coming by sailing ship), and that new stuff in plastic bags is adding to the problem or can it be delivered in loose bulk)
If a small welsh mine can't be used (like a private mine owner), then what is the duture.
An alternative happened during the war in switzerland when they couldn't get coal, but had an excess of electricity, they installed electric heaters into the exiting boilers, search for 'electric steam engine', the 'train of thought' channel also covered it.
My local power station imported coal from South America via Avonmouth. Give Uniper a call (Ratcliffe Power Station).
Hey I know this may sounds dumb but, the Germans and the Swiss tried to incorporate electricity and Steam powered engines together with the electric power heating the boiler. Wouldn't it be a nice replacement for coal?
Didn't work out very well. Turns out it's just easier to direct electricity straight to a motor.
@@VestedUTuber how it didn't turned out very well? Just run electric heat battery to the engine boiler and heat it
@@ethandouro4334 More energy was wasted heating the water with electricity than just powering a motor directly.
@@BalticoYT well, couldn't it be useful tho? Since even it would be energy loss, it would still be a better alternative to coal, I think
@@ethandouro4334 It's feasible to use electricity simply to pre-heat the water overnight to get the boiler hot, but not to heat the water when the loco is actually on the move, which is when most of the coal is used.
Plenty of the good stuff in Australia.
And run on small coal only processed in this way. Left to dampen in the drizzling rain. in cardboard boxes in three inch layers
There was no mention of Bosnia and Herzegovina, where there are coal mines which are operating. They also use the coal there to operate Steam Engines, for shunting duties and taking coal to the main line.please investigate it may be an opportunity.
They run a Br52, which is everything but fuzzy about coal quality... you can run those on lignite if you insist
Well you could adapt the steam engines to burn used motor oil or chip fat oil
I’d say that coal must always be cleaned to avoid ashes being blown out
can you add subtitles? i am not from uk
Has anybody thought about electric heating at start up?
That might save a bit of coal and make lighter work before the first run.
Yes. DLM has pre heating systems.