Quite an interesting video, hope it will work out nicely for your sailing needs! A lot of(repetitive)work but the end result is great. Thank you both for another cool video!
What a daunting task, and what a savings of $! Only you two would have the determination to get it done, and you did!!! Herby, I can tell you loved every minute of the process, and Maddie, you love the results. What a pair you two make! Amazing...steady on mateys.
This is absolutely insane! I love it. Thanks for taking the time to put all the info in the description. Nothing is worse than finding a channel that helps show a different way of doing things and then you can't find what they used or where. appreciated. Also never heard of you till now. Crazy my finger is on the pulse of sailing channels and you were a skipped beat. ;)
I think this gives people a different perspective on battery banks and the fact that there is nothing proprietory about building a battery, which major battery constructors (not manufacturers) are doing with very big profit margins. Components are sourced from the same handful companies, the assembly, packaging, labelling is done in a local warehouse and then sold for x3 or more the cost. Good job and keep perservering!
Great work. Custom battery banks for space saving is a really good idea. LiFePO4 is the way to go. Very safe. And inexpensive considering it is lithium.
Thanks for this. I want 1 lithium battery for the mini-cruiser I'm building. I'd like to build it but really don't have experience building electronics. Hopefully with your video and other ones out there I can manage to DIY it.
Good choice. Another advantage of cylindrical cells : Lithium batteries tend to build up dendrites between anode and cathode. These little spiky crystals tends to short the cell, slowly but surely reducing capacity. One known technique to reduce the dendrites is to apply a constant pressure between anode/separator/cathode. Not easy to do on prismatic cells, but pressure is built in the cylindrical ones. THIS is the real reason for Tesla's choice. ALSO : be really carefull to weld and unsure same resistance for each contact. If not, you create a discrepancy between cells, thus a charge discrepancy, increasing work for your balancer, and reducing cycle efficiency. For this reason, your last pack , because it will have different connexion pattern will have different microohms differences between cells, this one will be less balanced.
That’s some really good information! The two rectangular batteries have been a bit of a pill while the square ones work without question or complaint! Thanks!
Its about time you switched to lithium batteries... I know it has actually been quite some time, but I want to see your outboard/dinghy install. I've sorta already seen this stuff, but it was cool to rewatch.
Glad this worked out for you folks! (I saw the comment that you’ve had these banks in place for about a year.) I don’t know anything about the spot weld process, but I was watching with skepticism that the welds would hold up well in a marine environment. Nice job!
The flat cells have recently come down in price and are now close to the cheap price of these cells. You need more of them and they don’t pack into boat spaces as well, but they save you a ton of time during the build!
I seen the cells in the thumbnail I had a heart attack, I thought you were using Lithium Ion cells. Glad to see you're using LiFePO4 cells! I didn't realize you could get them in the smaller cylindrical cells, I'm going to have to look into that. Great video!
This is awesome. It's really cool that you showed us how to do this. But... in my mind, the weak link in all of this are those welds on your strips. You're strips may be nice and wide, but almost all of that current ends up being forced through those welds. If any break, that's fewer welds to carry that current... well I'm just worrying. I would have been inclined to put more than 4 weld points in each battery... Keep this in mind as time goes on. That was a awesome little welder you used.
These batteries are the equivalent of ants moving a large piece of food. Each ant contributes very little to carrying, but there are so many that they all add up to be a lot of carrying capacity. Each weld is small and weak, and if a weld comes disconnected, the cell is removed from the system and we have a reduced capacity. The current flowing out of each weld is minuscule as there are so many cells in the system. If we are drawing 400 amps (20,000W), each battery would be giving up 80 amps and each cell would be giving up 5 amps (240W). We normally run at 50 amps which ends up being 10 amps per battery and 0.625 amps per cell. With 4 welds per cell, it’s only 0.156 amps per weld at cruising speed. At full speed it’s still only 1.25 amps per weld. The saving grace for all these batteries and welds is the fact that they are being stacked and will forever have an 80 pound battery pushing down on them and forcing the strips onto the cells ends. I’m really excited for prismatic cells to come down in price so that we can build batteries without all the small cells and welds. With those batteries, the few connections made need to be perfect as a single bus bar will be flowing a very large number of amps all the time!
funny, that was my main thought as well... I was thinking that adding a flow of solder on each connection but not sure if that would harm the batteries... was first thinking you could add some conductive paste of some kind, but I think the solder flow would add strength as well as conductivity. I read your reply and now understand the lack of need for more conductivity...
Herby, we also on lithium already. but we did not buy them. we found a huge bank in the dump bin. it was from golf car. i disassembly it and check all cells, damaged i throw away and good one reassembly to 24v 330Ah bank. only thing we buy is a good BMS module to have a protect from overcharge and have some balance. so cost for our bank is 200$.
Drop jaw WOW...! Impressed and you will be able to service this or repair at sea. Yes, Battle Born American made are more expensive. I have a very long rectangular installation so I went with EG4 about half the price of Battle Born. Just to scary of a task to DIY. Very impressive vid. Fair Winds.
Very encouraging and inspiring video (though not as thorough as you usually present), and with LiFePO4, the lifespan as well as the available capacity will be far greater than with your old batteries. And none of your cabling needs to be replaced! I hope you will edit this video and include an explanation of the failure to get full power from the combined battery array. (I'm wondering if Mortie was trying to warn you ahead of time that there was trouble in the wind.)
Haha! That will be for a future video, but the short version is once I got the Bluetooth modules, I was able to program the batteries and the issues stopped.
yeah one is left going what, exactly, are you doing and its not clear. Cell model and the math of battery size design all reduces to homey stories instead of explanation how to number arrange and size the bank for given AH capacity and voltage needed.
I’ve been thinking of doing the same for my boat project even though I can’t afford as many cells. Great to see you try it! Would love to hear about how the batteries work, some stats and testing in the future!! :)
Stats and testing will be a thing in the future :) The nice part about this kind of build is you can do it in stages as you can afford it. We are currently building one more battery a year later to add to the pack. These were just a “minimum to let us motor” setup, but it’s far from the pack size that we wanted. It was what we could afford at the time though so budget won the decision making process.
Zen and the art of battery packs....😂😎🧙♂️🇬🇧 You can see why BYD is looking popular with its blade cells in the industry. ... The next step seems to be Na cell chemistry rather than Lithium as its a lot more available/cheaper ..safer, lighter and more robust. AND it can be built on the same production equipment as Li cells..
Hi, I have a couple of questions. 1) why not make the modules smaller i.e., 24 ah each so they could be packaged and stacked in a greater variety of configurations?. 2) I calculate close to 24KWh of capacity - how do you charge all that?
We actually found that it’s easier to manage two 24v 100ah batteries instead one 48v 100ah battery. Each battery needs its own BMS and the each BMS costs about $120. The smaller each battery is, the easier it is to manage but the cost starts to climb with all the BMSs you need to buy as well. For charging, we have 1.4kW of solar on the boat and it puts in a substantial amount of power for the batteries. It takes about 2 days to charge up after a long run. As you get more battery capacity, suddenly you need more charging capacity to match it!
really a much easier way to go about this is what I did. I bought 16 280 AH lithium iron phosphate cells put them in groups of four compressed with half inch bread board plastic, put a overkill solar 120 amp bms on each of the four and can pull 400 amps, or 4,000 watts long-term, use it in my Rv full time and happy as f. I built this with the new eve cells from china over two years ago and the price is up some but for less than 3,000 dollars I have about 14 kilo watts
I really wanted to do that but it was out of our budget. Each one of our batteries is 16 cells 😭 I’m watching the prices come down and I can’t wait to add extra batteries to the bank using EVE cells!
WOW! I thought prismatic cells were a PITA. Sometimes with prismatic cells they will get out of balance a little and I have to charge them individually, that generally means running my 24v house on a 12v lead acid and running a little generator to charge a 3.2v 280 ah cell. Do these little cylindrical cells get out of balance as well? If so, do you have spare cells you would then charge to the proper voltage and swap out the underperforming cell? Cool project for sure! Congrats! Btw if we ever cross paths I'm leaving a rubber mallet on your boat!
A rubber mallet would be appreciated! That piece of wood got the job done but it’s just not the same! We have 20 extra cells on hand in the event that we need to swap some out over the years. The BMS does a good job of keeping them balanced if they ever get to full charge and show their imbalances. We normally are running them everyday so they live a perpetual life between 40-70% SOC. When we sit for a while, the panels get them topped off and the balancing act begins!
Herbie, as I was watching you connecting the black squares together, it looked familiar. I cannot place where I saw it, but I've seen this before. Did you publish this build before? :¬) Webhead USA
I would love to have prismatic cells! They were just outside our budget so we went with these. A ton more work but they could fit our weird boxes. As time goes on, we will continue to add to our battery bank and I look forward to the day when we can drop in some prismatic cells!!
@@RiggingDoctor We bought ours on alibaba. The prices were raising for a while but now they are back down. We bought 280ah cells and have 1400 ah total. As I recall, we paid about $2500.00 for all the cells and another $1000.00 for 5 BMS units. They’ve been great for us. Incredible savings! Now we’re waiting for solid state batteries. 😬
That’s a great price! Are yours 12v or 48v? I have seen EVE cells for sale from US suppliers at a very nice price. I think it was a tad over $100 per 280ah cell. I could be mistaken as I have looked at so many cells lately. Solid state batteries are such a game changer. When they come out, I’m torn between buy them or buying a bunch of “now” worthless LiFePO4 cells for super cheap 🤩
@@RiggingDoctor we’re running 12 volts. Our house bank was already set up for 12 volts.. I would’ve liked to convert it but it made the most sense to keep it as it was. Maybe you saw the video I made a few months ago of my build? I would put the link here but RUclips would probably put it in your held for review folder. 🙄 you guys did a great job. I would’ve never taken on a battery project that big. If you make it up towards Murrells Inlet SC we should try to meet 😊
We will be passing by there but way inland. We’re going to run the Waccamaw River which goes right by that inlet (latitude wise). Maybe we can meet up in that area :)
Nice! We were considering doing the same ourselves. Personally we decided to go with 280ah eve cells. Do you have any concerns with corrosion over time? So many possible failure points. How is it holding up in colder weather? Cheers
It’s been doing fine but it is a lot of failure points. It was cheaper than prismatic cells at the time, but prismatics have come down in price so we will be using those next time!! The nice thing is the failure points are all small, so if one cell comes out of the system, it’s only a 6ah drop in performance.
@@RiggingDoctor that makes sense. My concern would be a short on one cell or extra resistance from corrosion causing extra heat where you do not want it. I guess if all works properly the strip should burn up and isolated that cell. But even in that case now your bank is relying on pushing the same current with less capacity. Also over time I would guess the other good batteries connected to the one bad in series would get overworked as the rest of your bank will be trying to balance the now slightly smaller battery. Anyway I'm curious to see how you guys like it over the years. Hoping to build another bigger bank for our new boat. Always cool to see people trying different things. Cheers
We have since put them in a large weather-proof case and they are holding up very well! One of the batteries had a couple spot welds that came loose during the shuffling when we put them in the case. We just tore the tape in that area, re-welded, and they’re doing great. This video was made in June of last year, so we can attest to the fact that they’ve held up. The motor barely vibrates, so no trouble there.
@@RiggingDoctor ok! this answers my question about the weather-proof container... curious about what you or others think about adding a flow of solder - maybe it's too risky
Hello.. I'm in the process of buying a boat.. narrowed down they all need solar and battery upgrades.. we'll be in Florida to start out.. would you be interested in taking on a job (name your price) helping out with what I'll need and best route to take.. probably getting the boat search completed in next couple of months..I watch several channels and you guys seem to be the most thorough and insightful..lmk... you probably don't have the time.. but maybe even just picking your brain would be a big help.. anyway thanks for the videos and the knowledge..
Great job! One thing I would suggest is adding a way to easily swap out a bad bms or a way to bypass the bms in an emergency situation where a bms fails.
That’s part of the redundancy of the system. If one BMS goes, we still have 4 more working at reduced capacity. Swapping a BMS is just a matter of splicing a lot of tiny wires while anchored and then we are up and running!
We set the Victron MPPT from lead acid to LiFePO4. It was pretty easy to switch! The generator powers a battery charger for lead acid batteries so it will never be able to “full charge” but it gets it very close and the solar can finish it off from there. While cruising, the panels do a good job of keeping the batteries charged up so it’s been nice not needing the generator for a change.
Wondering if you considered flowing solder under each nickel/battery connection for the best electrical contact - and only relying on the spot-weld for strength? Just curious. Also, curious if you considered a more 'waterproof' overall 'container' for them - like even shrinkwrap - or a water tight 'box' --- thanks for sharing!
We learned a lot while making these batteries and made some changes to our technique going forward as we build more batteries for the boat. That stuff will be out in time!
This “Old Fart” appreciates the DIY Ability👍 But Personally, I’ve always been scared of Electricity/Electronics😜 Glad you Folks have the Ability & Time…Continue to Stay Safe & Enjoy😎
@@RiggingDoctor I know what you mean... anyone building a battery bank who isn't a healthy amount of scared is very foolish. They can be incredibly dangerous if one isn't really careful and meticulous in the work.
Do you need to manage between cell charge balancing? A friend built his own EV and with the older battery technology he had all sorts of challenges keeping charging balanced and having to find and replace dead or lazy cells.
I'm only 7 minutes in, but I don't remember hearing anywhere about testing your battery voltages and making sure they're all the same voltage before welding them together, is that an issue? did you do that behind the scenes maybe?
@@unAgorist I don't think it was 2560 cells, he said 2560 holders, that would be 1280 cells @ 3.90/pc. That's not taking the nickle strips or other things into account.
Total, we used 16x16x5 = 1,280 cells. We bought 1300 so that we would have a few spares if a cell went bad. If there is an issue, we can always swap out the cell and keep on going :)
Not a clue, but the spot weld only needs to maintain contact between the strip and the battery. I have seen builds where they used magnets to keep the metals in contact! The weld holds it close to the battery and current flows because of contact. If you wanted to get technical, the current flow would be related to the diameter of the spot weld.
Now that your battery bank has a much larger incoming current charge capability (Li will sink very very high amps when charging), is your Honda generator considered 'improperly' mismatched because the generator's kW output is much too small? Or have you adjusted your charger to limit the charge current? I guess a correctly matched generator would need to be >10KVA max output to match the battery charger->battery bank. Consider this point from Victron's install guides: "If your generator is smaller than the recommended size for your inverter/charger, you will definitely need to adjust the settings on the inverter/charger and reduce the AC input current limit, and/or a DC charge current limit to prevent overloading the generator."
Battery hook up seems to be running out of everything important. Is that nickel plated steel strapping ? 10mm or 7mm ? how much length per say, 100 batteries ?I picked up a cheap dc clamp meter so I can measure high dc currents. $50 about. I also recommend a cheap (mine was $10 ) infra read temp meter so you can scan all the connections and cells for temp differences. Especially when you first fire them up.
I can't wait to see where all of the electric parameters or real world numbers educate me. My primary goal is to eventually observe and learn how the speed control design and operating parameters measure up. It is the robustness of the speed controller which eludes me. So far everything appears to have a robust design factor. My personal goal is to completely design without this limitation:* Cost and Durability of an electronic speed controller.
@@RiggingDoctor Thanks for the reply, if you ever find out please let me know. It is eerily similar to LC in voice, lyrics and musical style. I'll try and search more for it. I tried searching the lyrics to no avail.
Which solar and battery resources did you find most useful? What BMS? I used a Daly DahlgreenCS and am not a fan. It's an odd device. Did you top balance the cells to begin with?
I ended up getting the BMS from Overkill Solar (affiliate link in the description gives us a little cut). I had bought the same type of BMS from battery Hookup and it just wasn’t working well, so the second time I bought the BMS, I went Overkill and it’s been great. I didn’t top balance at first and was not getting full power from them, so I top balanced in St. Augustine, FL. The range was so much better than with the lead batteries that I was very happy, but then I wanted more and began looking for ways to squeak more out of them! Top balancing makes a huge difference!
@@RiggingDoctor I think there were supply chain issues last spring with overkill BMS... Or I would have gone that way too. I wish electrodacas/ Dacien Toldea made a 48v BMS.
I just watched a Sailing Aquarius video when they talked about switching from AGM to Lithium batteries, They mentionned that their insurance company did not want to cover them anymore. Has it been your experience? Did you renegociated your insurance policy? Cheers
zoiks! Geek factor: very high! i am going to have to watch it again to grok this, but as i am looking to build a 48v battery bank to power an electric refit, i am beyond intrigued. i've seen a lot of builds using prismatic cells, and didn't even realize LiFePo4 came in a cylindrical form. did you 3d print those grid clips or buy them from the battery supplier? who was the battery supplier? did you figure out why Battery Bank 3 wasn't online?
Bank 3 was offline because of the parameters that it was preprogrammed with. Once I got the Bluetooth module I was able to program it and turn it on. I bought all the parts from BatteryHookup.com. If you use promo code RIGGING5, you get a 5% discount and we get a percentage as well which helps us keep sailing and bringing you videos 😁
Did you check with your insurance company? I build batteries from 18650s as well as 100Ah LifePo4 prismatic cells for land based installations. I still need to buy a commercial build battery because my boat insurance will not allow me to DYI it
One more instance where our liability only insurance is nice 😊 We have no cruising restrictions or limitations on what/when we can do things. It’s just up to us to make sure that the boat is well cared for and in a safe situation so that we never get into a situation where we wish we had full coverage. The biggest part is how we fix it all ourselves. If we can’t fix it or afford to replace it, we don’t buy it.
Amazing accomplishment with the DIY Li Battery cell job ! Also I love the detailed replies you do with questions from the public, now my question: what life expectancy do you estimate for the Li Batteries ? What is your best guess ? cheers from Sechelt, BC, Canada
The cells are supposed to last 3000-5000 cycles when run down to 10% SOC. I have been running these batteries for almost a year now and they have about 30 complete cycles on them (based on the BMS logging). I try to keep them between 80% and 40% SOC but sometimes we need to keep going and that means drawing the batteries down in charge.
Being how 30 cycles occurred in a year, and going with the low number of 3000 cycles, I would think that something other than cell death will be the reason these batteries would be replaced. Otherwise, we would still be pushing our boat around with these cells in 100 years 😅
Good job on the build! What are the final values? Total V/W/A? What do figure your range is now? What motor are you running? And lastly, weight/size of your beautiful boat? I am just getting ready to do the same thing and would love to compare my calculations with your real world experience. Thanks so much! I love the channel, I think I've seen every installment. Many Blessings!
Ok, at the time of the installation, all the calculations were conjecture. We have been using the batteries for almost a year now and I have some nice data for you. We have 270 amps available to use. We can motor at 5 knots for 2 hours and 15 minutes (motoring at 100 amps). The batteries are 48v. Each one is 96ah and 4.6kWh each, but the BMS is set very conservatively to make them last longer and this eats up our numbers. Range: the longest we have motored has been 28nm in a day. This was in the ICW so we had currents with us and against us. We weigh 36,000 pounds and are a 45’ Morgan (32’ waterline). The motor is the QT20 from electric yacht. It can do 20kW but we rarely go above 5kW to motor. During docking, we do use all she’s got though so don’t skimp on the motor size just because you won’t need the power to push the boat straight.
Did you install a proper 150 or 200 amp DC breaker such as an Airpax? Or does the boat already have those? I didn't trust the breaker so I installed a 150 A Airpax tandem breaker and a 200 amp ANL fuse.
The motor has a 400a fuse leading to it and each battery has a 150a terminal fuse on the positive as it connects to the boats power. Lots of fuses everywhere to avoid a horrible situation! It would be comforting to put fuses between the cells as well but a friend who knows much more than I do told me that was unnecessary with LiFePO4.
@@RiggingDoctor as long as you're fully protected. So many amps of potential. Big battery arrays are definitely scary. Glad you know what you're doing!
What happens to the battery if one or more spot welds break loose? Are you putting an unsealed, uncoated electric assembly with thousands of connections down in the bilge?
If one weld breaks loose, that cell would be disconnected from the battery and we would have a decrease in capacity. It is covered in tape to help protect it, then put inside a wooden box. Most batteries that are “sealed” just have colored heat shrink on them to make them look prettier but don’t actually offer any protection. I value being able to inspect the batteries over covering them up. As for going in the bilge: yes.
@@RiggingDoctor Heat shrink is of no value. Silica gel envelopes in your wooden boxes could be helpful if the boxes are caulked and have lids with gaskets. I don't know how much air circulation your batteries need, if any.
well its like 5.50 am here, but this was worth it Im assuming the 48v taps is due to your motors native requirements? A little payback, just for the hell of it Im retired but loosely attached to the submarine industry, and we are going thru the motions of whats called a 'life of type extension', or LOTE among the things examined were lithium batteries over our lead acid, but we didnt like our chances of thermal run away so weve been looking elsewhere Out there somewhere some busy people are testing a model nickel-zinc battery and it is looking really good. What we do of course is a tiny bit more critical than you might face, these things need to be combat tested, you might find yourself both underwater and on fire, its tricky. All that and our small battery is like 400 tonnes, this because Im advocating something slightly larger. its spensive too but it was fun watching you create all your connectors with the hairy talking rat in the background I better stop by and check out the next instalment or two .... cheers ..
That would be nice, but since it’s in a boat they are so tucked away that it would be impossible to get to them to check while running. The bottom battery is under the top two! When we did the test with the motor, I was feeling the cells to see if any were warm. So far so good!
ok you give the rating of your cells but didnt specify are they lithium or lithium potassium4 which yes, I think they are. And what model number and specification? you get us started but leave out the details needed. Thanks for the simple terminology in homey vocabulary but if we are going to build what we need, smaller batteries for a boat with an engine to use for house power, we have to know the design details so we can adapt to our own needs.
The batteries are LiFePO4 and the cell size is a 32650. They come in 5 and 6ah ratings for similar prices. Glad it was helpful and sorry for leaving out the key details
@@RiggingDoctor 32650..thanks! I will try to figure out what I need to build a 200 amp hour battery. Look forward to saving some money:-). And congratulations on your successful project
An old video, battery tech/prices changing fast, today their are better solutions ie. Amazon prismatic Lipo4 cells 8 280 ah 24v for $1300 so $5200 + bms$ for 560 ah.
I’ve been watching them and can’t wait to add more batteries to the boat to give us even more range. We currently have around 20kWh of battery and most electric cars have 70-100kWh batteries. I take it that’s a nice figure to give you plenty of power and range! Over the years, we can go adding little by little so that it doesn’t break the bank and eventually get up to that point where we can motor fast and long without running out of juice. Right now, we can motor at 5 knots for 2 hours. Using that math, a 100kWh battery should let us do that for 10 hours! That’s some comfortable range without listening to a generator in the background 😎
@@RiggingDoctor yea that sounds about right. Even if all your connections are perfect all cells have slightly different, resistance and capacity. I know all to well how much work was involved making that battery. Congrats.
And….building this will sure keep you busy. Just remember to connect them in Parallel…. Or is it. Well you know. How are you VENTING these batteries? I thought Tesla has a cooling system. I thought sail boats used wind power to trickle charge. How do lithium batteries like salt water?
We have no venting system for them. Tesla batteries get put through much more rapid charging and discharging which makes the cells hotter. We charge slowly and discharge rather slowly compared to what they are rated for. This keeps the cells from getting hot and therefore it becomes a non-issue. We watch their temperatures and they get up to the 90s°F on a hot summer day while motoring along. Their cutoff temperature is around 149°F, so we have a long way to go before we need to worry about cooling. Lithium batteries hate saltwater, or any moisture for that matter. They have a steel casing that will rust away in a heartbeat so the trick is to keep them isolated and in a happy environment, and check on them frequently to make sure they don’t start rusting.
That is my biggest fear! I have the BMS parameters set exceedingly conservative to avoid this kind of disaster, but when you cram that much power into tiny packages disaster can always strike 😖
This is the kind of activity that is making it harder and harder to get insurance on a LiFePO boat. Those of us following design guidelines and requirements to install safe DC systems are being undermined by tinkerers building marginally spot welded lithium cell banks controlled by sketchy BMS systems and placing them in their bilge. Now the insurance companies are taking notice and using these installations as the lowest common denominator. I know you don't carry comprehensive insurance and your boat isn't really worth much but understand and appreciate the impact this hacking together of "lithium" systems is having on the rest of us following ISO and ABYC guidelines and using UL/CE certified equipment.
I worry about you all....... You build it, you assume the responsibility of a failure and the insurance company is with you on this ?????? That's why Mr. Murphy is around. I wish you well and hope nothing happens .......... enjoy
We insure the boat with our own account. If we break something, we pay for the materials and fix it ourselves. The nice thing with these batteries is they are so much cheaper than pre-made with a warranty. If something goes wrong, we can build it again and still be saving money! As for building it and having something go wrong with it: I double check everything to make sure we dotted all our “i’s” and crossed all our “t’s”.
@@RiggingDoctor Whew ............ I like your confidence.... Whenever I do that over the years I've paid dearly over and over again. Just glad the Force is with you ........................ enjoy
![Why We FAILED the First Lithium Battery Test | Sailing Wisdom [S5 Ep5]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/BWK2ewbU-bQ/mqdefault.jpg)
![Why We FAILED the First Lithium Battery Test | Sailing Wisdom [S5 Ep5]](/img/tr.png)
underrated
I had not considered building from basic cells but the advantages are clear, cost and space usage.
Congratulations what an amazing upgrade to your power system.
It has been a game changer!
Wow major props for doing this. The bms wiring always seemed really intimidating. Thanks for the explanation!
Quite an interesting video, hope it will work out nicely for your sailing needs! A lot of(repetitive)work but the end result is great.
Thank you both for another cool video!
What a daunting task, and what a savings of $! Only you two would have the determination to get it done, and you did!!! Herby, I can tell you loved every minute of the process, and Maddie, you love the results. What a pair you two make! Amazing...steady on mateys.
Thanks Mark :)
This is absolutely insane! I love it. Thanks for taking the time to put all the info in the description. Nothing is worse than finding a channel that helps show a different way of doing things and then you can't find what they used or where. appreciated. Also never heard of you till now. Crazy my finger is on the pulse of sailing channels and you were a skipped beat. ;)
I’m glad you found us! Welcome :)
Thanks
Incredible job and great video. The music selection was spot on. 👍👍👍
Thank you!!!
I think this gives people a different perspective on battery banks and the fact that there is nothing proprietory about building a battery, which major battery constructors (not manufacturers) are doing with very big profit margins. Components are sourced from the same handful companies, the assembly, packaging, labelling is done in a local warehouse and then sold for x3 or more the cost. Good job and keep perservering!
Great episode - thank you!! I liked Herbie's comment about using the sun to build the new bank of batteries to store its energy.
It’s the most “off grid” build you can do 🤓
Great video and congratulations on making the battery banks yourselves 😊 You guys are very cool people 😎
Thanks! They have been a major game changer!
Many thanks i learned a lot from that episode. Congratulations on building your battery bank. An amazing feat.
It’s great to have this understanding for all our future projects and builds :)
You are both amazing at the tasks you take on. Btw, I recently named my new self steering wind vane Herbie. Thanks for your vids. From AU
What an honor!!
Great work. Custom battery banks for space saving is a really good idea. LiFePO4 is the way to go. Very safe. And inexpensive considering it is lithium.
It’s worked out really well!
Thanks for this. I want 1 lithium battery for the mini-cruiser I'm building. I'd like to build it but really don't have experience building electronics. Hopefully with your video and other ones out there I can manage to DIY it.
yeah youll need more specific details. This is good but much of it basically human interest and not inforrmative.
They leave out a lot.
Good choice. Another advantage of cylindrical cells : Lithium batteries tend to build up dendrites between anode and cathode. These little spiky crystals tends to short the cell, slowly but surely reducing capacity. One known technique to reduce the dendrites is to apply a constant pressure between anode/separator/cathode. Not easy to do on prismatic cells, but pressure is built in the cylindrical ones. THIS is the real reason for Tesla's choice. ALSO : be really carefull to weld and unsure same resistance for each contact. If not, you create a discrepancy between cells, thus a charge discrepancy, increasing work for your balancer, and reducing cycle efficiency. For this reason, your last pack , because it will have different connexion pattern will have different microohms differences between cells, this one will be less balanced.
That’s some really good information! The two rectangular batteries have been a bit of a pill while the square ones work without question or complaint!
Thanks!
great info - would adding conductive paste or flow solder help with these concerns?
I so wanted to help with this. Really glad it worked out and continues to work, good stuff.
Its about time you switched to lithium batteries... I know it has actually been quite some time, but I want to see your outboard/dinghy install. I've sorta already seen this stuff, but it was cool to rewatch.
The dinghy has been great!
Glad this worked out for you folks! (I saw the comment that you’ve had these banks in place for about a year.) I don’t know anything about the spot weld process, but I was watching with skepticism that the welds would hold up well in a marine environment. Nice job!
The trick is to keep them as far removed from the marine environment!
Looks great 👍 I hope during rough seas the delicate parts are safe and strong.
The plan is to keep them buried and safe so they can’t move around in rough weather.
Glad they were Lithium Iron Phosphate. I have considered the flat cells at 100 amp hour, the cost stays high though. I like the modular build.
The flat cells have recently come down in price and are now close to the cheap price of these cells. You need more of them and they don’t pack into boat spaces as well, but they save you a ton of time during the build!
Great video, you both deserve a cookie !
Home made? 😁
I seen the cells in the thumbnail I had a heart attack, I thought you were using Lithium Ion cells. Glad to see you're using LiFePO4 cells! I didn't realize you could get them in the smaller cylindrical cells, I'm going to have to look into that. Great video!
They are pretty awesome cells!
Very interesting!!
This is awesome. It's really cool that you showed us how to do this. But... in my mind, the weak link in all of this are those welds on your strips. You're strips may be nice and wide, but almost all of that current ends up being forced through those welds. If any break, that's fewer welds to carry that current... well I'm just worrying. I would have been inclined to put more than 4 weld points in each battery... Keep this in mind as time goes on. That was a awesome little welder you used.
These batteries are the equivalent of ants moving a large piece of food. Each ant contributes very little to carrying, but there are so many that they all add up to be a lot of carrying capacity.
Each weld is small and weak, and if a weld comes disconnected, the cell is removed from the system and we have a reduced capacity. The current flowing out of each weld is minuscule as there are so many cells in the system. If we are drawing 400 amps (20,000W), each battery would be giving up 80 amps and each cell would be giving up 5 amps (240W).
We normally run at 50 amps which ends up being 10 amps per battery and 0.625 amps per cell.
With 4 welds per cell, it’s only 0.156 amps per weld at cruising speed. At full speed it’s still only 1.25 amps per weld.
The saving grace for all these batteries and welds is the fact that they are being stacked and will forever have an 80 pound battery pushing down on them and forcing the strips onto the cells ends.
I’m really excited for prismatic cells to come down in price so that we can build batteries without all the small cells and welds. With those batteries, the few connections made need to be perfect as a single bus bar will be flowing a very large number of amps all the time!
funny, that was my main thought as well... I was thinking that adding a flow of solder on each connection but not sure if that would harm the batteries... was first thinking you could add some conductive paste of some kind, but I think the solder flow would add strength as well as conductivity. I read your reply and now understand the lack of need for more conductivity...
Herby, we also on lithium already. but we did not buy them. we found a huge bank in the dump bin. it was from golf car. i disassembly it and check all cells, damaged i throw away and good one reassembly to 24v 330Ah bank. only thing we buy is a good BMS module to have a protect from overcharge and have some balance. so cost for our bank is 200$.
Nice job!
Drop jaw WOW...! Impressed and you will be able to service this or repair at sea. Yes, Battle Born American made are more expensive. I have a very long rectangular installation so I went with EG4 about half the price of Battle Born. Just to scary of a task to DIY. Very impressive vid. Fair Winds.
Very encouraging and inspiring video (though not as thorough as you usually present), and with LiFePO4, the lifespan as well as the available capacity will be far greater than with your old batteries. And none of your cabling needs to be replaced!
I hope you will edit this video and include an explanation of the failure to get full power from the combined battery array. (I'm wondering if Mortie was trying to warn you ahead of time that there was trouble in the wind.)
Haha! That will be for a future video, but the short version is once I got the Bluetooth modules, I was able to program the batteries and the issues stopped.
yeah one is left going what, exactly, are you doing and its not clear. Cell model and the math of battery size design all reduces to homey stories instead of explanation how to number arrange and size the bank for given AH capacity and voltage needed.
Thats great. Im glad someone is sticking it to high prices.
Its not for me but its cool.
I’ve been thinking of doing the same for my boat project even though I can’t afford as many cells. Great to see you try it! Would love to hear about how the batteries work, some stats and testing in the future!! :)
Stats and testing will be a thing in the future :)
The nice part about this kind of build is you can do it in stages as you can afford it. We are currently building one more battery a year later to add to the pack. These were just a “minimum to let us motor” setup, but it’s far from the pack size that we wanted. It was what we could afford at the time though so budget won the decision making process.
@@RiggingDoctor Great!! Yes that's my plan too! Start small to motor out of harbors in calm weather and then expand later on! :)
Very Cool.
great work.
Herb, I like building things myself especially if I can save money. But, this is way to Nerdy for me! Hope this all works out for you.
That's most likely going to be a big help on the ICW.
Oh huge game-changer indeed
Zen and the art of battery packs....😂😎🧙♂️🇬🇧 You can see why BYD is looking popular with its blade cells in the industry. ... The next step seems to be Na cell chemistry rather than Lithium as its a lot more available/cheaper ..safer, lighter and more robust.
AND it can be built on the same production equipment as Li cells..
What ended up being the problem with the third battery pack? Thanks for the great overview as to what it takes to build your own battery pack.
Once I got the Bluetooth and was able to check the settings, it turns out that the settings were too constrictive and caused it’s early shutdown.
Hi, I have a couple of questions. 1) why not make the modules smaller i.e., 24 ah each so they could be packaged and stacked in a greater variety of configurations?. 2) I calculate close to 24KWh of capacity - how do you charge all that?
We actually found that it’s easier to manage two 24v 100ah batteries instead one 48v 100ah battery.
Each battery needs its own BMS and the each BMS costs about $120. The smaller each battery is, the easier it is to manage but the cost starts to climb with all the BMSs you need to buy as well.
For charging, we have 1.4kW of solar on the boat and it puts in a substantial amount of power for the batteries. It takes about 2 days to charge up after a long run. As you get more battery capacity, suddenly you need more charging capacity to match it!
really a much easier way to go about this is what I did. I bought 16 280 AH lithium iron phosphate cells put them in groups of four compressed with half inch bread board plastic, put a overkill solar 120 amp bms on each of the four and can pull 400 amps, or 4,000 watts long-term, use it in my Rv full time and happy as f. I built this with the new eve cells from china over two years ago and the price is up some but for less than 3,000 dollars I have about 14 kilo watts
I really wanted to do that but it was out of our budget. Each one of our batteries is 16 cells 😭
I’m watching the prices come down and I can’t wait to add extra batteries to the bank using EVE cells!
Good work guys! Do you run your motor and the house from the same bank?
We do!
@@RiggingDoctor Brave!
WOW! I thought prismatic cells were a PITA. Sometimes with prismatic cells they will get out of balance a little and I have to charge them individually, that generally means running my 24v house on a 12v lead acid and running a little generator to charge a 3.2v 280 ah cell. Do these little cylindrical cells get out of balance as well? If so, do you have spare cells you would then charge to the proper voltage and swap out the underperforming cell? Cool project for sure! Congrats! Btw if we ever cross paths I'm leaving a rubber mallet on your boat!
A rubber mallet would be appreciated! That piece of wood got the job done but it’s just not the same!
We have 20 extra cells on hand in the event that we need to swap some out over the years.
The BMS does a good job of keeping them balanced if they ever get to full charge and show their imbalances. We normally are running them everyday so they live a perpetual life between 40-70% SOC.
When we sit for a while, the panels get them topped off and the balancing act begins!
Herbie, as I was watching you connecting the black squares together, it looked familiar. I cannot place where I saw it, but I've seen this before. Did you publish this build before? :¬) Webhead USA
We did a live video during the making of one of the batteries!
We went with the prismatic cells with our build. However we used THE SAME BMS as you! Ours have been working great! 😉
I would love to have prismatic cells! They were just outside our budget so we went with these. A ton more work but they could fit our weird boxes.
As time goes on, we will continue to add to our battery bank and I look forward to the day when we can drop in some prismatic cells!!
@@RiggingDoctor We bought ours on alibaba. The prices were raising for a while but now they are back down. We bought 280ah cells and have 1400 ah total. As I recall, we paid about $2500.00 for all the cells and another $1000.00 for 5 BMS units. They’ve been great for us. Incredible savings!
Now we’re waiting for solid state batteries. 😬
That’s a great price! Are yours 12v or 48v?
I have seen EVE cells for sale from US suppliers at a very nice price. I think it was a tad over $100 per 280ah cell. I could be mistaken as I have looked at so many cells lately.
Solid state batteries are such a game changer. When they come out, I’m torn between buy them or buying a bunch of “now” worthless LiFePO4 cells for super cheap 🤩
@@RiggingDoctor we’re running 12 volts. Our house bank was already set up for 12 volts.. I would’ve liked to convert it but it made the most sense to keep it as it was. Maybe you saw the video I made a few months ago of my build? I would put the link here but RUclips would probably put it in your held for review folder. 🙄 you guys did a great job. I would’ve never taken on a battery project that big. If you make it up towards Murrells Inlet SC we should try to meet 😊
We will be passing by there but way inland. We’re going to run the Waccamaw River which goes right by that inlet (latitude wise).
Maybe we can meet up in that area :)
Nice! We were considering doing the same ourselves. Personally we decided to go with 280ah eve cells. Do you have any concerns with corrosion over time? So many possible failure points. How is it holding up in colder weather? Cheers
It’s been doing fine but it is a lot of failure points. It was cheaper than prismatic cells at the time, but prismatics have come down in price so we will be using those next time!!
The nice thing is the failure points are all small, so if one cell comes out of the system, it’s only a 6ah drop in performance.
@@RiggingDoctor that makes sense. My concern would be a short on one cell or extra resistance from corrosion causing extra heat where you do not want it. I guess if all works properly the strip should burn up and isolated that cell. But even in that case now your bank is relying on pushing the same current with less capacity. Also over time I would guess the other good batteries connected to the one bad in series would get overworked as the rest of your bank will be trying to balance the now slightly smaller battery. Anyway I'm curious to see how you guys like it over the years. Hoping to build another bigger bank for our new boat. Always cool to see people trying different things. Cheers
Congratulations- very cool video- do you have any concerns with vibrations and the spot welds?
We have since put them in a large weather-proof case and they are holding up very well! One of the batteries had a couple spot welds that came loose during the shuffling when we put them in the case. We just tore the tape in that area, re-welded, and they’re doing great. This video was made in June of last year, so we can attest to the fact that they’ve held up. The motor barely vibrates, so no trouble there.
@@RiggingDoctor ok! this answers my question about the weather-proof container... curious about what you or others think about adding a flow of solder - maybe it's too risky
Hello.. I'm in the process of buying a boat.. narrowed down they all need solar and battery upgrades.. we'll be in Florida to start out.. would you be interested in taking on a job (name your price) helping out with what I'll need and best route to take.. probably getting the boat search completed in next couple of months..I watch several channels and you guys seem to be the most thorough and insightful..lmk... you probably don't have the time.. but maybe even just picking your brain would be a big help.. anyway thanks for the videos and the knowledge..
We would love to come up with a plan with you! Go ahead and email me at riggingdr@gmail.com and we can figure things out :)
Great job! One thing I would suggest is adding a way to easily swap out a bad bms or a way to bypass the bms in an emergency situation where a bms fails.
That’s part of the redundancy of the system. If one BMS goes, we still have 4 more working at reduced capacity.
Swapping a BMS is just a matter of splicing a lot of tiny wires while anchored and then we are up and running!
Have you changed anything on the "charging" side of the system? Do you still use solar panels? Cheers
We set the Victron MPPT from lead acid to LiFePO4. It was pretty easy to switch!
The generator powers a battery charger for lead acid batteries so it will never be able to “full charge” but it gets it very close and the solar can finish it off from there.
While cruising, the panels do a good job of keeping the batteries charged up so it’s been nice not needing the generator for a change.
Wondering if you considered flowing solder under each nickel/battery connection for the best electrical contact - and only relying on the spot-weld for strength? Just curious.
Also, curious if you considered a more 'waterproof' overall 'container' for them - like even shrinkwrap - or a water tight 'box' --- thanks for sharing!
We learned a lot while making these batteries and made some changes to our technique going forward as we build more batteries for the boat. That stuff will be out in time!
Hi guys, Might set some links where you bought your cells,BMS etc... Thx
I believe we have the links in the description as well as a discount code. If not, we will add them by tonight
I think you are been very positive, by building it your cells, that price saving is shocking!
It pays to do it yourself!
Whoop Whoop!
Did you mention the brand/manufacter of the spotwelder? (i did a search, but no find, but you know, :)
They stopped selling that exact one but this one is just like it: amzn.to/41QTT5a
Awesome! How did you come across this? 😍
Lots of reading!
This “Old Fart” appreciates the DIY Ability👍 But Personally, I’ve always been scared of Electricity/Electronics😜 Glad you Folks have the Ability & Time…Continue to Stay Safe & Enjoy😎
We’re definitely a healthy amount of scared as well haha
@@RiggingDoctor I know what you mean... anyone building a battery bank who isn't a healthy amount of scared is very foolish. They can be incredibly dangerous if one isn't really careful and meticulous in the work.
Do you need to manage between cell charge balancing? A friend built his own EV and with the older battery technology he had all sorts of challenges keeping charging balanced and having to find and replace dead or lazy cells.
The BMS we use has a balancer in it. The cells need to be close to each other but it helps keep them balanced.
I'm only 7 minutes in, but I don't remember hearing anywhere about testing your battery voltages and making sure they're all the same voltage before welding them together, is that an issue? did you do that behind the scenes maybe?
That really only applies to used batteries. If they spent 5k on these I'm assuming they are new, therefore factory tested.
@@unAgorist I don't think it was 2560 cells, he said 2560 holders, that would be 1280 cells @ 3.90/pc. That's not taking the nickle strips or other things into account.
It’s been almost a year since this video was filmed and all batteries are working perfectly.
Indeed they were. Took the manufacture a few days to finish testing all the boxes so I didn’t feel the need to redo their work.
Total, we used 16x16x5 = 1,280 cells. We bought 1300 so that we would have a few spares if a cell went bad. If there is an issue, we can always swap out the cell and keep on going :)
You really need to install those batteries in sealed cases to prevent corrosion and shorting ..🤞🏼
They have since been installed in sealed cases
Wow, your hair got a lot shorter since yesterday. Thanks for sharing!
Yeah not my favorite haircut…but my hair was dead from bleaching so I needed to start over
Any guesses how much current a spot weld can handle?
Not a clue, but the spot weld only needs to maintain contact between the strip and the battery. I have seen builds where they used magnets to keep the metals in contact! The weld holds it close to the battery and current flows because of contact.
If you wanted to get technical, the current flow would be related to the diameter of the spot weld.
Now that your battery bank has a much larger incoming current charge capability (Li will sink very very high amps when charging), is your Honda generator considered 'improperly' mismatched because the generator's kW output is much too small? Or have you adjusted your charger to limit the charge current? I guess a correctly matched generator would need to be >10KVA max output to match the battery charger->battery bank. Consider this point from Victron's install guides:
"If your generator is smaller than the recommended size for your inverter/charger, you will definitely need to adjust the settings on the inverter/charger and reduce the AC input current limit, and/or a DC charge current limit to prevent overloading the generator."
The generator is 2kW but the charger is only 1.2kW so we don’t run into that issue.
Really great vlog
Love that music “everyday is a struggle”
Who is that artist? Please
I’m not sure who it is, but we found the song on epidemic sounds. Perhaps you can google the lyrics?
Found it. Amos Noah
@@RiggingDoctor thx soo much
I've found everything but your spot welder ?
This is the one we used: amzn.to/3LBOjuF
@@RiggingDoctor I have a great 12v iron.
Battery hook up seems to be running out of everything important. Is that nickel plated steel strapping ? 10mm or 7mm ? how much length per say, 100 batteries ?I picked up a cheap dc clamp meter so I can measure high dc currents. $50 about. I also recommend a cheap (mine was $10 ) infra read temp meter so you can scan all the connections and cells for temp differences. Especially when you first fire them up.
I can't wait to see where all of the electric parameters or real world numbers educate me. My primary goal is to eventually observe and learn how the speed control design and operating parameters measure up. It is the robustness of the speed controller which eludes me. So far everything appears to have a robust design factor. My personal goal is to completely design without this limitation:* Cost and Durability of an electronic speed controller.
The technology keeps improving quickly, so hopefully your answers will be invented soon :)
Should you have water proof boxed the batteries against salt water ingress?
Yes, and we learned that lesson the hard way soon!
The song at 7:14 sounds so much like Leonard Cohen but I cant remember ever hearing it before. Is it?
It’s not! I’m not sure who it is, but we found it on epidemic sound
@@RiggingDoctor Thanks for the reply, if you ever find out please let me know. It is eerily similar to LC in voice, lyrics and musical style. I'll try and search more for it. I tried searching the lyrics to no avail.
@@RiggingDoctor Found it on Epidemic. Amos Noah, As You Make The Bed.
Who did the music around the 9 minute mark?
Amos Noah
Which solar and battery resources did you find most useful? What BMS? I used a Daly DahlgreenCS and am not a fan. It's an odd device. Did you top balance the cells to begin with?
I ended up getting the BMS from Overkill Solar (affiliate link in the description gives us a little cut). I had bought the same type of BMS from battery Hookup and it just wasn’t working well, so the second time I bought the BMS, I went Overkill and it’s been great.
I didn’t top balance at first and was not getting full power from them, so I top balanced in St. Augustine, FL. The range was so much better than with the lead batteries that I was very happy, but then I wanted more and began looking for ways to squeak more out of them!
Top balancing makes a huge difference!
@@RiggingDoctor I think there were supply chain issues last spring with overkill BMS... Or I would have gone that way too. I wish electrodacas/ Dacien Toldea made a 48v BMS.
I just watched a Sailing Aquarius video when they talked about switching from AGM to Lithium batteries, They mentionned that their insurance company did not want to cover them anymore. Has it been your experience? Did you renegociated your insurance policy? Cheers
We self insure (and just have liability insurance) so we don’t have to check with any outside people about what we do on our boat.
zoiks! Geek factor: very high! i am going to have to watch it again to grok this, but as i am looking to build a 48v battery bank to power an electric refit, i am beyond intrigued. i've seen a lot of builds using prismatic cells, and didn't even realize LiFePo4 came in a cylindrical form. did you 3d print those grid clips or buy them from the battery supplier? who was the battery supplier? did you figure out why Battery Bank 3 wasn't online?
Bank 3 was offline because of the parameters that it was preprogrammed with. Once I got the Bluetooth module I was able to program it and turn it on.
I bought all the parts from BatteryHookup.com. If you use promo code RIGGING5, you get a 5% discount and we get a percentage as well which helps us keep sailing and bringing you videos 😁
The holders are from battery hookup as well. They were 11¢ each so it seemed like an affordable way to setup the packs.
Lego Batteries!
Very much!
This is awesome! Who is the artist of that everyday is a struggle song?
Oh I liked that song too! I have no idea. We found it on epidemic sound. You could probably Google the lyrics
Found it. Amos Noah
Cool I kept getting Tupac or Biggie lol
Did you check with your insurance company? I build batteries from 18650s as well as 100Ah LifePo4 prismatic cells for land based installations. I still need to buy a commercial build battery because my boat insurance will not allow me to DYI it
One more instance where our liability only insurance is nice 😊
We have no cruising restrictions or limitations on what/when we can do things. It’s just up to us to make sure that the boat is well cared for and in a safe situation so that we never get into a situation where we wish we had full coverage.
The biggest part is how we fix it all ourselves. If we can’t fix it or afford to replace it, we don’t buy it.
Amazing accomplishment with the DIY Li Battery cell job ! Also I love the detailed replies you do with questions from the public, now my question: what life expectancy do you estimate for the Li Batteries ? What is your best guess ? cheers from Sechelt, BC, Canada
The cells are supposed to last 3000-5000 cycles when run down to 10% SOC. I have been running these batteries for almost a year now and they have about 30 complete cycles on them (based on the BMS logging). I try to keep them between 80% and 40% SOC but sometimes we need to keep going and that means drawing the batteries down in charge.
Being how 30 cycles occurred in a year, and going with the low number of 3000 cycles, I would think that something other than cell death will be the reason these batteries would be replaced. Otherwise, we would still be pushing our boat around with these cells in 100 years 😅
👍!!!awesome
Good job on the build! What are the final values? Total V/W/A? What do figure your range is now? What motor are you running? And lastly, weight/size of your beautiful boat? I am just getting ready to do the same thing and would love to compare my calculations with your real world experience. Thanks so much! I love the channel, I think I've seen every installment. Many Blessings!
Ok, at the time of the installation, all the calculations were conjecture. We have been using the batteries for almost a year now and I have some nice data for you.
We have 270 amps available to use. We can motor at 5 knots for 2 hours and 15 minutes (motoring at 100 amps).
The batteries are 48v. Each one is 96ah and 4.6kWh each, but the BMS is set very conservatively to make them last longer and this eats up our numbers.
Range: the longest we have motored has been 28nm in a day. This was in the ICW so we had currents with us and against us.
We weigh 36,000 pounds and are a 45’ Morgan (32’ waterline).
The motor is the QT20 from electric yacht. It can do 20kW but we rarely go above 5kW to motor. During docking, we do use all she’s got though so don’t skimp on the motor size just because you won’t need the power to push the boat straight.
Did you install a proper 150 or 200 amp DC breaker such as an Airpax? Or does the boat already have those? I didn't trust the breaker so I installed a 150 A Airpax tandem breaker and a 200 amp ANL fuse.
The motor has a 400a fuse leading to it and each battery has a 150a terminal fuse on the positive as it connects to the boats power.
Lots of fuses everywhere to avoid a horrible situation! It would be comforting to put fuses between the cells as well but a friend who knows much more than I do told me that was unnecessary with LiFePO4.
@@RiggingDoctor as long as you're fully protected. So many amps of potential. Big battery arrays are definitely scary. Glad you know what you're doing!
What song is that? Very cool videos
I’m honestly not sure haha. Got it off of epidemic sound
A lot of people have been switching to server rack batteries.
The trouble is finding a space in a boat that can fit a perfect large rectangle.
👍👍👍
What happens to the battery if one or more spot welds break loose? Are you putting an unsealed, uncoated electric assembly with thousands of connections down in the bilge?
If one weld breaks loose, that cell would be disconnected from the battery and we would have a decrease in capacity.
It is covered in tape to help protect it, then put inside a wooden box. Most batteries that are “sealed” just have colored heat shrink on them to make them look prettier but don’t actually offer any protection. I value being able to inspect the batteries over covering them up.
As for going in the bilge: yes.
@@RiggingDoctor Heat shrink is of no value. Silica gel envelopes in your wooden boxes could be helpful if the boxes are caulked and have lids with gaskets. I don't know how much air circulation your batteries need, if any.
well its like 5.50 am here, but this was worth it
Im assuming the 48v taps is due to your motors native requirements?
A little payback, just for the hell of it
Im retired but loosely attached to the submarine industry, and we are going thru the motions of whats called a 'life of type extension', or LOTE
among the things examined were lithium batteries over our lead acid, but we didnt like our chances of thermal run away so weve been looking elsewhere
Out there somewhere some busy people are testing a model nickel-zinc battery and it is looking really good.
What we do of course is a tiny bit more critical than you might face, these things need to be combat tested, you might find yourself both underwater and on fire, its tricky.
All that and our small battery is like 400 tonnes, this because Im advocating something slightly larger. its spensive too
but it was fun watching you create all your connectors with the hairy talking rat in the background
I better stop by and check out the next instalment or two .... cheers ..
I love the trickle down technology that finally gets to the boating world :)
@@RiggingDoctor I forgot to ask but, what do you think your battery weighs now?
The lithium weight is 500 pounds. Our old batteries were 800 pounds.
What was your battery source?
Battery hookup
With all those connections, I would think an occassional infrared scan would be in order to check for heat and resistance, on each bank.
That would be nice, but since it’s in a boat they are so tucked away that it would be impossible to get to them to check while running. The bottom battery is under the top two! When we did the test with the motor, I was feeling the cells to see if any were warm. So far so good!
what cells are those, and where did you source them?
The links for them are all in the description but they are from battery hookup
ok you give the rating of your cells but didnt specify are they lithium or lithium potassium4 which yes, I think they are. And what model number and specification? you get us started but leave out the details needed. Thanks for the simple terminology in homey vocabulary but if we are going to build what we need, smaller batteries for a boat with an engine to use for house power, we have to know the design details so we can adapt to our own needs.
The batteries are LiFePO4 and the cell size is a 32650. They come in 5 and 6ah ratings for similar prices.
Glad it was helpful and sorry for leaving out the key details
@@RiggingDoctor 32650..thanks! I will try to figure out what I need to build a 200 amp hour battery. Look forward to saving some money:-). And congratulations on your successful project
An old video, battery tech/prices changing fast, today their are better solutions ie. Amazon prismatic Lipo4 cells 8 280 ah 24v for $1300 so $5200 + bms$ for 560 ah.
I’ve been watching them and can’t wait to add more batteries to the boat to give us even more range.
We currently have around 20kWh of battery and most electric cars have 70-100kWh batteries. I take it that’s a nice figure to give you plenty of power and range! Over the years, we can go adding little by little so that it doesn’t break the bank and eventually get up to that point where we can motor fast and long without running out of juice.
Right now, we can motor at 5 knots for 2 hours. Using that math, a 100kWh battery should let us do that for 10 hours! That’s some comfortable range without listening to a generator in the background 😎
What are your cell voltage variances above 3.4v?
They charge to 3.65 before the BMS cuts the battery offline.
@@RiggingDoctor Do they all reach 3.65v at the same time? I guess my question is how well are the calls balanced. No battery ever built is perfect.
When I built them, I thought erroneously that the BMS would balance the cells for me, so later I did a top balance.
The normal variance is around 0.005v but sometimes it can get up to 0.040v
@@RiggingDoctor yea that sounds about right. Even if all your connections are perfect all cells have slightly different, resistance and capacity. I know all to well how much work was involved making that battery. Congrats.
:)
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And….building this will sure keep you busy. Just remember to connect them in Parallel…. Or is it. Well you know.
How are you VENTING these batteries? I thought Tesla has a cooling system.
I thought sail boats used wind power to trickle charge. How do lithium batteries like salt water?
We have no venting system for them. Tesla batteries get put through much more rapid charging and discharging which makes the cells hotter. We charge slowly and discharge rather slowly compared to what they are rated for. This keeps the cells from getting hot and therefore it becomes a non-issue.
We watch their temperatures and they get up to the 90s°F on a hot summer day while motoring along. Their cutoff temperature is around 149°F, so we have a long way to go before we need to worry about cooling.
Lithium batteries hate saltwater, or any moisture for that matter. They have a steel casing that will rust away in a heartbeat so the trick is to keep them isolated and in a happy environment, and check on them frequently to make sure they don’t start rusting.
Is it just me, or do corgis always have a look of disapproval?
Hah! There’s a Facebook group called “disapproving corgis”
So you each had the equavilent of making $7,000 for a weeks work? Not bad.
Especially when living the cruising life! That’s the equivalent of many months of income for us!
Too scared to attempt this after seeing Bens combi go up in flames a few years back: ruclips.net/video/4igrPF6Cpoc/видео.html
Granted he gutted the cells from old laptop batteries, and they were very likely not LiFePO
That is my biggest fear! I have the BMS parameters set exceedingly conservative to avoid this kind of disaster, but when you cram that much power into tiny packages disaster can always strike 😖
This is the kind of activity that is making it harder and harder to get insurance on a LiFePO boat. Those of us following design guidelines and requirements to install safe DC systems are being undermined by tinkerers building marginally spot welded lithium cell banks controlled by sketchy BMS systems and placing them in their bilge. Now the insurance companies are taking notice and using these installations as the lowest common denominator. I know you don't carry comprehensive insurance and your boat isn't really worth much but understand and appreciate the impact this hacking together of "lithium" systems is having on the rest of us following ISO and ABYC guidelines and using UL/CE certified equipment.
I’m sorry, did you just say our boat isn’t worth anything? I must have read that wrong.
I worry about you all....... You build it, you assume the responsibility of a failure and the insurance company is with you on this ??????
That's why Mr. Murphy is around. I wish you well and hope nothing happens .......... enjoy
We insure the boat with our own account. If we break something, we pay for the materials and fix it ourselves. The nice thing with these batteries is they are so much cheaper than pre-made with a warranty. If something goes wrong, we can build it again and still be saving money!
As for building it and having something go wrong with it: I double check everything to make sure we dotted all our “i’s” and crossed all our “t’s”.
@@RiggingDoctor Whew ............ I like your confidence.... Whenever I do that over the years I've paid dearly over and over again. Just glad the Force is with you ........................ enjoy
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