We’ll repeat it here: YES, Ryan co-founded Dakota Lithium, and we are 100% partial to the brand because he 1/ he has a clear and *disclosed* stake in the company, and 2/ we’ve used those batteries onboard in the last four years through thick and thin (and genuinely love them). One of the points we make is that not everyone is transparent about their financial interest to spread a certain type of information, and we take the stance to keep it real in all circumstances. And let this be a reminder that you can make your own decisions, and that those decisions turn better the more information you get :) we hope this was helpful!
We actually got some of your batteries in the start of summer and love them. We went with Dakota Lithium because they seemed to be open and honest,. (And rugged, because we beat the hell out of our gear!)
Looks like you haven't heard of *_SUPERCAPS?_* I have 6x 80a/hr(480ahr) 12v caps on my 45' cruiser. My boat is the first in the world equipped with them. They are 98% efficient, 1 million cycle lifespan, no chance of them exploding or burning. No gas or chemicals stored or emitted. They operate between minus 50⁰C and 80⁰C. They can be safely discharged to 0v and stored under the workbench for 6 months and recharged when needed. They comply with all international aviation safety regulations and can be flown on a passenger aircraft safely and have a 10 year factory guarantee. I have had them on board for 3 years and are performing at 100%. I run a 12v 1.2kW windlass(100A). Autopilot, nav station, all lights, pumps, 80L freezer @ - 18⁰C and fridge @ 2.5 to 4.5⁰C. 2x 330W pollychrystal solar panels, 100-50 Victron MPPT and 12v to 12v- 30a Victron charger for changing with alternator. Lithium is sooo last Friday's technology. Cape Town South Africa.
Based on the thumbnail I was cringing, waiting for another video speaking in generality by a recent first time user / DIY (which seems to be the primary youtube information source!). As someone who started in lithium ion cell manufacturing in 2010, I have to say I'm extremely pleasantly surprised. Ryan, you are 10/10 on all points as you well know. Anyone reading this, I can attest this is sound balanced advice and not a Dakota commercial. Key points is that often to make it an effective installation, you need to assess everything directly interfacing with the lithium side of the battery bank. He mentions this but it's worth reiterating. Great video Ryan.
One important point to add is that on high current situations ( above about 200amps) the quality of the cable crimps and connections is very important. A lose or corroded connection can go from fine to fire in seconds in high current situations. That is why where possible I recommend to use a higher voltage house bank 24v or even better 48v, because the current for the same load is much much less.
Great Video! Would love to see a video on the installation that covers all of the aspects mentioned in this video; wire sizing, adjustments to be made, etc.
What an awesome video! This is exactly what people need to know when thinking of going lithium and you’ve done an incredible job explaining it all in a simple easy to understand way. Thanks for putting it out there you guys 🙌
Wow, that was a really clear and well presented topic for all of us to be able to follow and understand. Yes, even an electrical nerd can admit it's not always clear due to too many subjects and no clear or full explanation to sort out the devil in the details. Great job and well done Ryan.👍👌⛵🏖️
Your background is very impressive. I can tell you from first hand experience we had the insurance discussion with the Gowrie Group after recently shopping insurance for new navigational limits that cover the West Indies. We were specifically told no Lithium… sort of, Gowrie uses Markel’s Jackline policy and we were told they would not provide more than $250K hull coverage if the vessel had Lithium. From our conversation with Gowrie, I don’t expect this to change or get better until the ABYC takes a stronger position to support Lithium technologies and even then, I would expect insurance companies not to insure any vessel where a professional lithium installer was not used. Hopefully companies like Dakota are out there working with the ABYC to drive change in this industry. Until then, my AGMs were installed in 2019 and I have to wait for them to reach end of life. I keep telling myself, every year the technology gets better and less expensive, but I sure do get jealous of those boats with nice Lithium house banks. One comment I would add is that you did not have much to say about battery bank capacity and I have read that one big issue are these owners who install large banks and short cycle their lithium batteries however, this really isn’t a fire risk as much as a degradation of the battery lifecycle. Anyway, great video and I have put Dakota Batteries on my list along with Battleborn. Anxiously awaiting for the insurance companies to catch up. 23:54
What would constitute a professional lithium installer? I install electronics at a marina. I also have an electrical/mechanical engineering degree. When someone wants something to do with lithium I tell them ill do the electronics but my marina will not install lithium batteries period or sell them, this is because I just refuse. Professional, years of electrical work, degrees, magician. I cannot judge the quality control or where the cells came from so I want nothing to do with them. Matter of fact I did a trolling motor this year the boat came back after the owner had the dakota batteries installed, because the trolling motor stopped working. It turns out one of the batteries was reading 3 volts and would not charge when I tested them.
Fantastic!!! I'm an electrical engineer (but not working with battery technology) and was searching for information on LFP safety and your video popped up. This is absolutely the BEST video on the subject that I've come across. Thank for this.
Precise and well structured! On the maximum charging current: Rather large solar panel installations get more and more popular and together with high output alternators, especially on a catamaran, all on independent charge controllers, you can easily create exactly the scenario you described. I missed mentioning the myth that Lithium batteries offer more cycles, charging/discharging at higher C and more usable capacity of their nominal capacity. While all of those are true individually, they are not in combination. If the desire is to obtain the longest life time, the regular charge/discharge current should be planned by data sheet. Sometimes advertising suggests things would be easier than they are. I would love to see more tech corner episodes!
So, so good! Thank you! To explain things like these, clearly like you do, needs a very thorough understanding of the matter. Everyone considering lithium batteries should see this! Fair winds!
You have just cleared up multi arguments on a Facebook group… thanks. Too many people generalising on Lithium batteries. Thank you for your in-depth explanation. Beautifully presented 👍🇦🇺
I don't often comment but I couldn't resist here!! Thank you so much Ryan. Your ability to clearly talk about complex systems was/is amazing. Thank you so much for making this one!!!!
Thanks for this Ryan. Really clear explanation. Regarding insurance: I've converted my boat to electric motor powered by a 48V LiFePo4 battery system. My insurer was very unwilling to take on the risk (basically as you said they didn't really know what the risk was). I put together a full design document explaining my choices and the background research that led to them and as a result they were happy to fully insure the boat. Although I don't have your experience, I do have a degree in Electronic Engineering so I am at least able to evaluate the accuracy of the information I am reading and make safe choices based on that reading I also agree with you comment about marine electricians: I tried to get my local marine electrician to inspect the work I had done (not just the 48V systems for the motor but the 12V systems and the AC systems) and they were clearly out of their depth.
If you are searching for another subject for a tech talk I would like to see a series of discussions about the different parts of a charging system. Solar panels, mppt, bms, inverter, shore power, batteries and how to integrate them. I have seen a bunch but they always thought a quick overview and don't go into quite enough depth. Eg. MPPT. How to choose the right size, why have multiple mppt's Or Inverters: string inverter vs micro inverter vs power optimizer. Choosing inverter size. Configuring boat wiring for AC and DC.
There's a terrific series of talks and lectures in boat electronics on RUclips y a channel called Pacific Yacht Systems, and I think you'd find a great follow on from Ryan's excellent introduction. I'm presently juggling just what the heck to do for my Next Boat, but am getting there. As of now, a strong 316 Stainless Rear arch for about 800 watts of solar, plus wind gen, space on a bar for antennas, plus power Davits . No Generator, but a Balmer XT 250 amp engine alternator with a built in Smart regulator, or, what alternator plus installation kit Balmar recommends. I'm getting a 3 cabin layout, with aft port cabin ripped out for a house racked Battery Bank, plus all charging and inverter systems in one control room type layout, to keep easy fastaccess to everything. It'll help balance a 100 mtrs of 10mm chain plus anchor up front. Standard the boat comes with a 4 small battery bank under the aft starboard Cabins bed, a d I'm thinking extra diesel tank under there. Large Watervtank is amidships under the dinette sofa, forvtopping up with a Watermaker, so forward, midshipman, and aft will have a nice eight distribution low down in the boat. I'm thinking 4 or 5 x 200ah SOK high quality batteries for the House Bank. I plan on running the internal diesel engine under moderate load at about 2 hours a Day. one hour just before sunset, one hour just before Dawn, for hot water for 2 showers a day. zduesels hate being run without a load, and a load cleans their insides and keeps them in peak condition, hence the extra fuel tank just in case. Not sure if Ryan has mentioned Galvanic isolators, they're important, but galvanic Transformers are worth the extra. Best Wishes and Fair Winds. Bob. 👍🙂
Wow, just WOW!! Ryan you were born for this! Clear and authoritative with humility, you're a unicorn! And Sophie, amazing edit! Seriously, one of my favorite videos of the year! Now I'm off to look at Dakota cranking batteries for my new boat!
Ryan, excellent job on the Lithium episode!! I watched it with my husband and although I'm not mechanical inclined as my husband, I was able to follow right along and understood everything you described/explained. Thank you for the honest input on the myths of Lithium. I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on disposal/recycling of used Lithium batteries as well.
I installed a Renogy 170Ah LiFePo battery last year. The only issue I've had is with my Isotherm ASU refrigeration, which automatically runs on freeze mode when the battery voltage exceeds 13.2, which with lead or AGM batteries will only be the case when charging. The idea is to use the power when available to freeze the holding plate to reduce cycles later and save on power consumption overall. Except the Renogy battery rests around 13.2, so the fridge is constantly trying to siphon off the excess power and as a result draining the battery. So I have to switch it to manual mode to prevent this. Isotherm has come out with a new temp sensor system, so perhaps this will solve the problem.
Wow. Just....wow. So much information in a 24 minute video. This is, quite possibly, my favorite video from the channel. (Commenter note: Sophie, I love your cooking and prep videos but, dang, Ryan killed it on this one, yes?) This is why I subscribe and recommend your channel to everyone I know who is remotely interested in the sailing life. Thanks and be well.
Thanks Ryan, would love if your company would supply some data for buyers to submit to their insurance company on the fire risk. Would make life a lot easier! Really appreciate your great information videos.
One of the clearest & absolute best explanations regarding drop-in replacements I've come across. If anyone was ever to question Sophie's attraction, that issue has been definitively been put to rest. Many thanks. Here's wishing you both clear skies & fair winds!
If you want a really good starting battery build one using Toshiba SCiB LTO cells, they are capable of delivering 10c and can accept 10c. There is almost no chance of the cells getting into thermal runaway. A nominal voltage of 2.3v 6s yields a starter friendly 13.8v. For a high compression diesel you may need 6s x3 in parallel of the 20ah cells. I have been using 6s of the 20ah as a starter batteries for a pair of v6 outboard for 5 yrs with ZORO maintenance and no BMS. For the first 2 yrs I checked cell voltage every 6 months, there was no appreciable drift. Now I just check voltage of the pack each spring. They lose very little voltage when in storage and can be charged at temperatures as low as -30c They are not cheap but are very durable at about 20k cycles they have a 70% capacity rating.
When a video like this comes out that has great feedback and is packed with info, THAT is when I star it. Honestly Ryan, I didn't fully understand everything, and that's a GOOD thing! It just means to go over it again a few times, just as we have to with any subject we're just learning. GREAT video, thank you thank you for all the good, detailed and verifiable info!!!😁
External bms also give the advantage of being able to replace the bms without having to replace the cells. you can also select a bms that communicates in the way that you want it to instead of being stuck with some proprietary equipment or application.
It took me a couple years to piece together all the info in this video. Our lithium system has been up and running for a couple years now and we love it. Great video and very informative!
Great clarification on lithium, thank you. I'm in aviation maintenance and if the FAA made a decision on something it's because someone died, the rules are written in blood. If they sign off, I'm not going to contest it because I know what the cost was to get there.
This is an excellent video! One point that is consistently missed about BMS safety: If an extreme overvoltage event occurs (imagine a lightning hit, alternator voltage regulator failure, or inductive flyback), especially when the battery is at a 100% state of charge where it will present nearly a zero load to charging -- the voltage rating of the BMS MOSFETs may be exceeded (say 60 volts for example), and one or more MOSFET may fail SHORTED. In which case, all forms of charging protection has vanished. BMS overvoltage protection is only valid provided the overvoltage does not exceed the MOSFET junction ratings. In my own sailboat installation, I have "crowbar" didoes: 18 volt 100 watt zeners installed across each battery's terminals to absorb a momentary voltage transient to protect the BMS MOSFETs. It only takes microseconds to fry a MOSFET junction. I've never seen a BMS with this protection.
Thank you Ryan. It's great that LiFePO4 starting batteries are ready for marine service. Is there are market for an even smaller starting battery for 10-25hp outboards? Or is the Dakota 60ah the smallest you'd want to go? Every lb in your tender hanging off the back of the boat and being drug up the beach matters. Thanks!!
Haha... Awesome! Good to year from you Younger! For anyone reading... Younger and his wife saved me one day after i broke my ass and got locked out of my apartment. I will never forget his kindness!
Absolutely agree 100% 👍🏼 well done video. I have a 100% electric LiFePo boat and can't agree more with the information you provided. Keep bringing important topics on proper LiFePo battery installation. Thank you!
Our Dakota Lithium batteries (4 x 280 AH) are ordered and on the way to Maverick in Guatemala!! So excited! Thanks for the great info and a fantastic product, Ryan!
Love the video. I have installed lithium on my boat, and switched my starter batteries to Dakota 65ah last spring. Love them. One thing that’s very important is making sure that either you isolate lithium from standard starting batteries from your house charger and alternator or like you said do a b2b charging set up. Lifo is pretty expensive which is hard to swallow for starter batteries but that whole profile thing is pretty important considering cross connection options that come on some boats. Thanks for sharing as lithium is really a great and overall economical option!
Ryan knows his stuff init. I noticed the inverters seem to all be 120V AC being advertised on the website but after reading the datasheet they support both 50 and 60 Hz with 120 and 240. Just wondered given in the UK we use 220 - 240V AC?
Great video, thank you. I use Lithium phosphate batteries in my RV.... as three 100AH 12v.... I was considering a DC to DC charger for when there is not enough solar and use the RV alternator...... But I calculated the resistance in 8 meters of 10 mm square copper cable (good for 50 amps)...was enough to limit the charge current from the alternator to under 50 amps and protect the alternator from over load....... To me it proved a DC to DC charger was an unessasary requirement or expense. I have also installed 50 amp circuit breakers on each of the batteries....and take advantage of the internal resistance of the circuit breakers to balance discharge currents in a limited way...... In practice as you suggest the lithium battery terminal volts remains relatively low until the batteries are fully charged.....and this makes for much more efficient charging from solar photo voltaics.... a match made in heaven is my experience compare with lead acid. thanks again!
Thanks for the excellent videos on lithium! To save space on my twin-diesel powered sport cruiser, the manufacturer installed three 12v lead acid batteries in parallel for a combined 300ah house/port starting bank. As the bank is doing double duty, the batteries are deep cycle, which is obviously not optimal for starting. Based on your videos, Dakota website and multiple other sources, I am considering individual lead acid starting batteries vs new Dakota starting + deep cycle batteries with a (mostly) independent LiFePo4 house bank (ACR or combiner) . A few questions for you: 1) Assuming externally regulated alternators, any reason at all to go with lead acid vs new combo batt? 2) Is there really a reason to keep a separate house bank if I were to go with the new combo batteries (I’d like to make use of the extra capacity)? 3) If not, would you mix combo and deep cycle Dakota batts in the house/starting bank? Looking forward to hearing your take! Randy
Brilliant Ryan, as always. I would add that the external BMS gives you the opportunity to connect your lifepo batteries in series while the internal BMS only allow parallel connections.
FANTASTIC VIDEO !! I'm already into LiFePo so I'm up to speed on the issues....just to say you covered all the issues really well, and VERY articulately and easily followed...THANK YOU ! ...one thing about alternators though...those of us that switched to AGM years ago SHOULD have already switched to a high-output, i.e. high-charge-rate alternator when we switched to AGM, because that's AGM's best feature too...they can take pretty much all you can dish out to them...since there's no liquid acid you need to worry about boiling.... ...so our AGM high output alternator shouldn't have much, if any problem dishing it out to our new LiFePo's.
Dakota batteries?? Have you seen the tear downs, they have the cheapest internals around. Why not something good like roypow with victron comms, t class fuse and so much more. I don't understand why people even choose Dakota lithiums. What's the reasoning there?
Loved this. I do have one thought though. I think you said to connect the alternator to the lead acid start battery and then use a DC-DC charger to charge the LPO bank. That is a good idea for small banks and stock alternators that are not externally regulated. However with large lithium banks, and externally regulated alternators, charge the lithium bank, then a smaller DC-DC charger to charge the start battery AND adjust the alternator to account for the big draw of LPO AND protection for the alternator in case of BMS disconnect.
Ryan - internal / external BMS - Re long term storage the external BMS can be disconnected so that over months the trickle current to run the BMS doesn't flatten the batt - I owned a yacht LA batt years ago but have 300A LFP in the caravan and they don't like to be floated so if not using the van I disconnect all loads and disconnect the BMS and the LFP is stored at 40-50% charge which is how they are shipped and need a top up and discharge back to the 40% every 6 months or so - unlike Lead acid that love being in float with a charger connected 24/7 - great vlog and well explained - Good to see Dakota changing and modernising their options - electronics is always changing - ex electronic engineering background from valves to semiconductors constant retraining just to keep up - now retired and have taken on the rear reclining armchair admiral role of dispensing free advice - clicked and subscribed well done
Most lithiums with internal BMS cant sit for years without serious reduction in SOC . the bigger issue is that the cells start to degrade. Good thoughts though
It is amazing what a few years of vloging can do, knowledge aside you have become a very articulate, persuasive speaker. great info, great video. Thank you for sharing
You hit the nail on the head. 1) Simple if you don't know what your doing then Don't do it. 2) You could be the cause of a fire or even death. 3) Never believe a salesmen they lie to get a sale, and often have know idea about what they are selling.
I was about to climb all over this thinking that this was going be wrong on so many levels…..I was wrong. Good job! One thing that I’d like to mention is, If an LFP batter does enter thermal runaway, it is not as severe as a cobalt containing battery. LFP cells don’t generate as much oxygen so those fire can be extinguished.
Would not normally see the level of experience on lithium-based batteries on a sailing channel but great to see. One crucial point to add is a suggestion to read the specifications of the supplier of the batteries prior to buying or installing due to some battery types / brands can only have three batteries in a parallel bank or pod or two batteries in series e.g. 2 x 12v for 24volt DC vessels or like for e.g. Mastervolt multiple batteries configuration you will need the mastervolt own software for the mastervolt Czone system configuration. On a side note, if installing Victon systems the company has the Lynx Distributor (fuse monitoring) which is a modular DC bus bar, with locations for four DC fuses. It will monitor the status of each fuse and indicate its condition with a LED on the front. Part of the modular Lynx distribution system
Two questions. Are there installation guidelines for preventing damage to the batteries while en route to prevent a UPS 6 scenario? I understand those batteries were damaged during loading, but the point stands that external trauma to the battery can start the process of thermal runaway. Second, what procedures are recommended for crews who do experience thermal runaway? Do you simply put the fire out with an ABC fire extinguisher and then flood the battery compartment? Throw them overboard? I know you understand these risks as a pilot, and I'm curious how you've taken those best practices from the aviation world and applied them to these threats. Thanks
Most Valuable! -- Knowledge is "Power", pun intended. Anyway, we all need to understand this lithium thing, because we will all be living with it going forward.
great video! you asked, so here you go: we have 300 ah@24v and 2 alternators that will put out 350a @2,100 rpm. The batteries have a max recommended charge current of 1.3c. (the engines are 12v and also small lithium with 15a B to B ) edit: a few years ago, the batteries were underwater for 3 days. While they (and the wire's attached to them) were destroyed, there was no other harm caused by them
Just found my way to the channel a few weeks ago and had no clue there were videos like this on it also. I really love geeking out on things but from time to time I also enjoy an overview on a subject that I am not confident enough to say I completely understand to help me see what I need to study up on. Thanks for the information.
Great video ! I have a couple of very specific questions : Although I am not using Lithium in a boat/sailing application, I am interested in the Dakota Lithium Starter battery (24 group 12v/135a) to use in an off road vehicle. In my case, a basic 1st gen Toyota Tacoma with a standard Denso 80amp alternator. 1. you mentioned "dump" and external regulation, does the Dakota provide "regulation" with it's internal BMS - on the "starter" version of this battery ? I could use a Balmar surge protector inline on the alternator for dump protection, but how could I manage the voltage regulation from a 20+ year old alternator ? 2. You also mentioned heat (thermal runaway) , my application would be for much desert high-heat driving conditions, I assume the BMS would protect the battery from over-heating, but what makes the Dakota different from other LifePo4 batteries that typically have a 120F max ? Can Dakota withstand more external and internal heat exposure ? I reached out to Dakota and they told me "not problem" and as long as my alternator is less than 135, everything would be as you say " a drop in replacement" I imagine you have sailed in high heat temps and I assume those batteries in the hull are not cooled by a fan. Any advise, opinion would be much appreciated . Thanks ! Eric, Tucson AZ
That was great. Ryan you are exactly right about finding a marine electrical technician to do or help with the install. Most are just interested in selling stuff and have very limited or zero real knowledge or experience. I’m been thinking of making the change for awhile and I’ve made sure when I had to get a new inverter/charger it had a lithium setting. Same with my mttp controller. As for my alternator, it had an internal regulator and it’s charge output after a few minutes is so low it almost useless. In order to make a switch worthwhile I think I will need a new belt system for a new alternator a long with a regulator that is a bit more flexible, programmable and can talk to the other components. That probably my next step with batteries after that. A few years ago when I got out 3000 watt inverter/charger to run my wife’s air blower I pit in all new wires for the batteries. They are massive and all are doubled up. Just for smiles I think she has used the hair blower three times! 😊. Thank you again for the informative video. I will definitely look at getting your batteries when I make the change.
Ryan that was a very good explanation of the problems and myths of lithium batteries.I’m very interested in this,Thank you for explaning why there can be problems if done incorrectly.
Hi Ryan, great video, very informative. I’m seeing an increasing number of people online promoting the idea of skipping the DC DC charger between the lead Acid starter battery and the Lithiums and just using a “long Lead” to drop the voltage to the “correct” level for Lithium charging. I believe this to be frankly madness, but would be grateful if you could consider mentioning in a video the flaws in this idea. Your credibility would make the argument a lot more convincing.
Hi Ryan and Sophie. Thank you for a great video! I'm in contact with Dakota to replace my house bank with Li. Question: I also have the stock 80 amp alternator on my Oceanis. Your discussion on alternators makes sense. I don't go nuts with offshore sailing but if heat is a critical factor in alternator function and especially while charging Li batteries at idle or low RPMs, why not just have a temperture switched, high velocity fan to blow tons of cooling air directly through the alternator to cool it? Wouldn't that be a cost-effective solution for the day sailer/raft up sailer? Thanks in advance!
The issue with most lithium batteries is that most manufacturers recommend against using them for high current (start, bowthruster, windlass) loads, obliging you to retain some type of lead acid battery system for those loads on board. Worse, however, all smart charger manufacturers, advise that their chargers are only suitable for one battery chemistry, obliging you to have two (or more) totally separate and isolated means of charging (ie no manual or automatic combiner) each system. Is Dakota any different? I see that they offer one suitabl for high current loads but is the chemistry and charging profile the same as for deep cycle applications? In other words, could one retain a configuration similar to a conventional lead acid system ie one single smart charger and an automatic combiner?
I don’t have any lead acid batteries on my charter boat, I use lithium for house and a Maxwell start capacitor for just the starter motor, the alternator charges the house lithium and the Maxwell has an inbuilt dc to dc charger.
In the UK there’s a company called Lynch , all they do is Marine Electric and Hybrid engines and the installation of them , They are a reputable company in the sailing community in the UK and Europe.
Respect to you and your business and thanks for being upfront about your affiliation. I build my own batteries and is currently running test on a 48V system. To up the total capacity I'm working my way up to parallel connect multiple 48V strings, where each string has its own dedicated BMS. What is your view on using this method to increase capacity? I'm a bit worried about balancing issues
It’s funny because we’ve always been very straight forward about Ryan’s involvement with Dakota Lithium, but the brand has gone much farther than we have since we first installed them on Polar Seal 😅 I’ll let Ryan address the question though, cause I have no idea 🤪
I may help here. RUclips site Off-Grid Garage has done exactly what you are doing and tested thoroughly. Basically, you can have a separate BMS on each 48V bank and they will balance between each other as the highest charged bank will deliver first and then when it reaches the level of another bank it will stop delivering and the other bank will take over. This leads them to self balance. Keep in mind that each bank is balanced with its own BMS. Also, he top balanced first time. There are many of his videos on the construction. Banks are all different from 280AH to 304AH and each has a different BMS. ruclips.net/video/mkelEzVNmIE/видео.html
@@SoundzAlive1 Thanks a lot. That's exactly what I'm looking for 🙂 My only problem is that I'm drawing a lot of power. Something like 50kW. If all the power is drawn from one string, I'm worried it may deteriorate faster. I hope I can mitigate this problem by using identical cells and BMS. I guess I'll just have to try and then measure the draw on each string to see the load distribution over time.
I might have missed it, but there was no mention of cell and pack voltage and the differences between chemistries. For example, you "could", at a long shot, get away with LiFe packs and a standard lead acid charger. The peak voltage of 14.5V is compatible. The fact the lead acid charger will attempt a float at 13.6V will just result in 0 current flowing. What WILL however ruin your day (without a BMS or protection circuit), is if your lead acid charger has a hidden "boost equalisation" feature and every few days hits the batterys with 15V for a while. No protection, that could go wrong. However, attempting anything like that with a standard cobolt oxide with a max cell voltage of 4.2V and a probably pack voltage limit of 12.6V, bulk/boost mode up to 14.4V WILL cause fire if the protection circuit is missing or faulty. I think when you get to packs the size you are dealing with for boats/rvs, I wouldn't want one without a BMS, and ideally internal per cell fuses. That stops pack runaways if a cell goes short or if enough cells start to die. I'm looking at 100Ah lithium for a small off grip solar setup. The 100Ah leadacid is now 3 years old and I'd be lucky to get 20Ah out of it over 12V and if you put more than 5A on it, it sags under 12V already. Poor things been worked hard though and flattened twice (which probably did the most damage). It's also been given the "really hard slap" treatment, twice now, not going to work again. "Hard slap" is basically flatten it, then hit it with a 10 amp fizzing charge to try and refresh it some. Sometimes works for 'surface charge' issues, but usually shortens the overall life. They are just so damned expensive and my charge controller does not have a lithium mode, so I'll have to set the charge voltage limits myself and make sure I disable EQ charge mode.
How waterproof is the case? If water gets inside the case, is there a chance that it will pool there? Would that damage the cells, and how quickly would the damage occur?
I do want to make the switch from lead acid batteries to Dakota Lithiums. I have a much much smaller boat that the sail boat in this video, but love the water no less. I have a small boat I use for walleye fishing mainly. Which means I am trolling for hours on end, and need as much long lasting power as I can get. I use an 80lb thrust 24 volt motorguide trolling motor and 2 Lowrance sounders one of which has a 12” display and draws quite a bit of power itself. Plus I have them networked and also a heading sensor installed. I’ve been running 3 optima yellow tops and a separate starting battery for the main engine. The yellow tops are, and this is no lie, are 13 years old. I have treated them good and in turn they have served me well. But it is now time to upgrade as I now get about 8 hours max service out of them as opposed to the 2 days max I used to get. Those 3 yellow tops were given to me by the way, so I really do not know their true age, I only know how long I have used them. The main reason I haven’t made the switch yet is price. I do realize the initial investment will eventually pay for itself over time as opposed to buying new lead acid type batteries, but it is literally that initial investment that is prohibitive to me. You see, I am but a lowly diesel tech, with a family I am responsible towards. And, as I stated, the yellow top optimas were given to me, not purchased by me. So I am currently in the “how do I pay for these batteries” stage of making the switch. I can honestly say that for 3 12 volt 100 amp hour Dakota lithium batteries I would be willing to allow Dakota lithium to placard my boat with advertisements and would be more than happy to show anyone interested the set up in my boat in exchange. One can dream
Appreciate the presentation/explanation on lithium batteries. Am glad you put in the caveat on installers of lithium batteries as I’ve met far too many techs that were worthless. I’ll use this video as as primer for such batteries and I’ll watch it 1 or 2 more times . Thanks.
I've been utilising "Freedomwon" LiPo4 for 11Yrs with no issues at all manufactured here in South Africa. I've installed them in factories (500Kw X 4) house holds 30Kw X3 and boats 12VDc X 4-18. All with internal BMS systems against lead acid or gel any day or night.
We’ll repeat it here: YES, Ryan co-founded Dakota Lithium, and we are 100% partial to the brand because he 1/ he has a clear and *disclosed* stake in the company, and 2/ we’ve used those batteries onboard in the last four years through thick and thin (and genuinely love them). One of the points we make is that not everyone is transparent about their financial interest to spread a certain type of information, and we take the stance to keep it real in all circumstances. And let this be a reminder that you can make your own decisions, and that those decisions turn better the more information you get :) we hope this was helpful!
You did a great job of keeping the video "clean"!
We actually got some of your batteries in the start of summer and love them. We went with Dakota Lithium because they seemed to be open and honest,. (And rugged, because we beat the hell out of our gear!)
Looks like you haven't heard of *_SUPERCAPS?_* I have 6x 80a/hr(480ahr) 12v caps on my 45' cruiser. My boat is the first in the world equipped with them. They are 98% efficient, 1 million cycle lifespan, no chance of them exploding or burning. No gas or chemicals stored or emitted. They operate between minus 50⁰C and 80⁰C. They can be safely discharged to 0v and stored under the workbench for 6 months and recharged when needed. They comply with all international aviation safety regulations and can be flown on a passenger aircraft safely and have a 10 year factory guarantee. I have had them on board for 3 years and are performing at 100%. I run a 12v 1.2kW windlass(100A). Autopilot, nav station, all lights, pumps, 80L freezer @ - 18⁰C and fridge @ 2.5 to 4.5⁰C. 2x 330W pollychrystal solar panels, 100-50 Victron MPPT and 12v to 12v- 30a Victron charger for changing with alternator. Lithium is sooo last Friday's technology. Cape Town South Africa.
@@grantpedder7719 Do tell us more. Do you have a video of your setup with more details?
Based on the thumbnail I was cringing, waiting for another video speaking in generality by a recent first time user / DIY (which seems to be the primary youtube information source!).
As someone who started in lithium ion cell manufacturing in 2010, I have to say I'm extremely pleasantly surprised. Ryan, you are 10/10 on all points as you well know. Anyone reading this, I can attest this is sound balanced advice and not a Dakota commercial.
Key points is that often to make it an effective installation, you need to assess everything directly interfacing with the lithium side of the battery bank. He mentions this but it's worth reiterating.
Great video Ryan.
Hey Sophie, I fully approve of Ryan.
Hey Ryan, Thanks for being "technical". I get & respect "technical". Keep feeding brains!
One important point to add is that on high current situations ( above about 200amps) the quality of the cable crimps and connections is very important. A lose or corroded connection can go from fine to fire in seconds in high current situations. That is why where possible I recommend to use a higher voltage house bank 24v or even better 48v, because the current for the same load is much much less.
I know this from personal experience... very valid point!
Me too. Wish I would have upgraded to 48v and not stay in 12v. Way too many amps on my systems and super thick cables
Great Video! Would love to see a video on the installation that covers all of the aspects mentioned in this video; wire sizing, adjustments to be made, etc.
👍☑🏝 ME TOO!!!
👍⛵️ ME TOO!,
Me three!
What an awesome video! This is exactly what people need to know when thinking of going lithium and you’ve done an incredible job explaining it all in a simple easy to understand way. Thanks for putting it out there you guys 🙌
Thanks guys
Ryan-
I never comment on videos, so this is my first. This information was excellent! I appreciate your transparency. Well done. Thanks!
Wow, that was a really clear and well presented topic for all of us to be able to follow and understand. Yes, even an electrical nerd can admit it's not always clear due to too many subjects and no clear or full explanation to sort out the devil in the details. Great job and well done Ryan.👍👌⛵🏖️
Ditto. Couldn’t have put it better myself 😊👍
Your background is very impressive. I can tell you from first hand experience we had the insurance discussion with the Gowrie Group after recently shopping insurance for new navigational limits that cover the West Indies. We were specifically told no Lithium… sort of, Gowrie uses Markel’s Jackline policy and we were told they would not provide more than $250K hull coverage if the vessel had Lithium. From our conversation with Gowrie, I don’t expect this to change or get better until the ABYC takes a stronger position to support Lithium technologies and even then, I would expect insurance companies not to insure any vessel where a professional lithium installer was not used. Hopefully companies like Dakota are out there working with the ABYC to drive change in this industry. Until then, my AGMs were installed in 2019 and I have to wait for them to reach end of life. I keep telling myself, every year the technology gets better and less expensive, but I sure do get jealous of those boats with nice Lithium house banks. One comment I would add is that you did not have much to say about battery bank capacity and I have read that one big issue are these owners who install large banks and short cycle their lithium batteries however, this really isn’t a fire risk as much as a degradation of the battery lifecycle. Anyway, great video and I have put Dakota Batteries on my list along with Battleborn. Anxiously awaiting for the insurance companies to catch up. 23:54
What would constitute a professional lithium installer? I install electronics at a marina. I also have an electrical/mechanical engineering degree. When someone wants something to do with lithium I tell them ill do the electronics but my marina will not install lithium batteries period or sell them, this is because I just refuse. Professional, years of electrical work, degrees, magician. I cannot judge the quality control or where the cells came from so I want nothing to do with them. Matter of fact I did a trolling motor this year the boat came back after the owner had the dakota batteries installed, because the trolling motor stopped working. It turns out one of the batteries was reading 3 volts and would not charge when I tested them.
Fantastic!!! I'm an electrical engineer (but not working with battery technology) and was searching for information on LFP safety and your video popped up. This is absolutely the BEST video on the subject that I've come across. Thank for this.
Precise and well structured! On the maximum charging current: Rather large solar panel installations get more and more popular and together with high output alternators, especially on a catamaran, all on independent charge controllers, you can easily create exactly the scenario you described. I missed mentioning the myth that Lithium batteries offer more cycles, charging/discharging at higher C and more usable capacity of their nominal capacity. While all of those are true individually, they are not in combination. If the desire is to obtain the longest life time, the regular charge/discharge current should be planned by data sheet. Sometimes advertising suggests things would be easier than they are. I would love to see more tech corner episodes!
So, so good! Thank you!
To explain things like these, clearly like you do, needs a very thorough understanding of the matter.
Everyone considering lithium batteries should see this!
Fair winds!
You have just cleared up multi arguments on a Facebook group… thanks. Too many people generalising on Lithium batteries. Thank you for your in-depth explanation.
Beautifully presented 👍🇦🇺
I don't often comment but I couldn't resist here!! Thank you so much Ryan. Your ability to clearly talk about complex systems was/is amazing. Thank you so much for making this one!!!!
Ryan, That sure was an education on batterys. Thanks for the eye opener.🌴
Thanks for this Ryan. Really clear explanation. Regarding insurance: I've converted my boat to electric motor powered by a 48V LiFePo4 battery system. My insurer was very unwilling to take on the risk (basically as you said they didn't really know what the risk was). I put together a full design document explaining my choices and the background research that led to them and as a result they were happy to fully insure the boat. Although I don't have your experience, I do have a degree in Electronic Engineering so I am at least able to evaluate the accuracy of the information I am reading and make safe choices based on that reading
I also agree with you comment about marine electricians: I tried to get my local marine electrician to inspect the work I had done (not just the 48V systems for the motor but the 12V systems and the AC systems) and they were clearly out of their depth.
If you are searching for another subject for a tech talk I would like to see a series of discussions about the different parts of a charging system. Solar panels, mppt, bms, inverter, shore power, batteries and how to integrate them. I have seen a bunch but they always thought a quick overview and don't go into quite enough depth.
Eg. MPPT. How to choose the right size, why have multiple mppt's
Or Inverters: string inverter vs micro inverter vs power optimizer. Choosing inverter size. Configuring boat wiring for AC and DC.
Great idea
There's a terrific series of talks and lectures in boat electronics on RUclips y a channel called Pacific Yacht Systems, and I think you'd find a great follow on from Ryan's excellent introduction. I'm presently juggling just what the heck to do for my Next Boat, but am getting there. As of now, a strong 316 Stainless Rear arch for about 800 watts of solar, plus wind gen, space on a bar for antennas, plus power Davits . No Generator, but a Balmer XT 250 amp engine alternator with a built in Smart regulator, or, what alternator plus installation kit Balmar recommends. I'm getting a 3 cabin layout, with aft port cabin ripped out for a house racked Battery Bank, plus all charging and inverter systems in one control room type layout, to keep easy fastaccess to everything. It'll help balance a 100 mtrs of 10mm chain plus anchor up front. Standard the boat comes with a 4 small battery bank under the aft starboard Cabins bed, a d I'm thinking extra diesel tank under there. Large Watervtank is amidships under the dinette sofa, forvtopping up with a Watermaker, so forward, midshipman, and aft will have a nice eight distribution low down in the boat. I'm thinking 4 or 5 x 200ah SOK high quality batteries for the House Bank. I plan on running the internal diesel engine under moderate load at about 2 hours a Day. one hour just before sunset, one hour just before Dawn, for hot water for 2 showers a day. zduesels hate being run without a load, and a load cleans their insides and keeps them in peak condition, hence the extra fuel tank just in case. Not sure if Ryan has mentioned Galvanic isolators, they're important, but galvanic Transformers are worth the extra. Best Wishes and Fair Winds. Bob. 👍🙂
Wow, just WOW!! Ryan you were born for this! Clear and authoritative with humility, you're a unicorn! And Sophie, amazing edit! Seriously, one of my favorite videos of the year! Now I'm off to look at Dakota cranking batteries for my new boat!
Ryan, excellent job on the Lithium episode!! I watched it with my husband and although I'm not mechanical inclined as my husband, I was able to follow right along and understood everything you described/explained. Thank you for the honest input on the myths of Lithium. I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on disposal/recycling of used Lithium batteries as well.
Excellent presentation. Thank you.
Live your honesty Ryan
Nice work, Ryan. Thanks for the time and thought you’ve invested in this. Very well structured and informative!
Excellent video - many thanks.
I installed a Renogy 170Ah LiFePo battery last year. The only issue I've had is with my Isotherm ASU refrigeration, which automatically runs on freeze mode when the battery voltage exceeds 13.2, which with lead or AGM batteries will only be the case when charging. The idea is to use the power when available to freeze the holding plate to reduce cycles later and save on power consumption overall. Except the Renogy battery rests around 13.2, so the fridge is constantly trying to siphon off the excess power and as a result draining the battery. So I have to switch it to manual mode to prevent this. Isotherm has come out with a new temp sensor system, so perhaps this will solve the problem.
Please keep doing videos on sailboat electronic systems. It is really helpful! Thank you!
Great explanation. Complete and clear. It condensates several books of incomplete partial info in a single video. Congratulations!
Very thorough Ryan, great job!
Wow. Just....wow.
So much information in a 24 minute video.
This is, quite possibly, my favorite video from the channel. (Commenter note: Sophie, I love your cooking and prep videos but, dang, Ryan killed it on this one, yes?)
This is why I subscribe and recommend your channel to everyone I know who is remotely interested in the sailing life.
Thanks and be well.
Thank you Ryan , it’s nice to hear this information from a reliable source👍👍
Thanks Ryan, would love if your company would supply some data for buyers to submit to their insurance company on the fire risk. Would make life a lot easier! Really appreciate your great information videos.
One of the clearest & absolute best explanations regarding drop-in replacements I've come across. If anyone was ever to question Sophie's attraction, that issue has been definitively been put to rest. Many thanks. Here's wishing you both clear skies & fair winds!
If you want a really good starting battery build one using Toshiba SCiB LTO cells, they are capable of delivering 10c and can accept 10c. There is almost no chance of the cells getting into thermal runaway. A nominal voltage of 2.3v 6s yields a starter friendly 13.8v. For a high compression diesel you may need 6s x3 in parallel of the 20ah cells. I have been using 6s of the 20ah as a starter batteries for a pair of v6 outboard for 5 yrs with ZORO maintenance and no BMS. For the first 2 yrs I checked cell voltage every 6 months, there was no appreciable drift. Now I just check voltage of the pack each spring. They lose very little voltage when in storage and can be charged at temperatures as low as -30c They are not cheap but are very durable at about 20k cycles they have a 70% capacity rating.
This video is guaranteed to save lives and property, one of the best Ive ever seen, thanks for making it!
When a video like this comes out that has great feedback and is packed with info, THAT is when I star it. Honestly Ryan, I didn't fully understand everything, and that's a GOOD thing! It just means to go over it again a few times, just as we have to with any subject we're just learning. GREAT video, thank you thank you for all the good, detailed and verifiable info!!!😁
Great tutorial!
Great video Ryan. Clear, concise and well structured. It makes me want to play it on a loop in my store so I don’t keep repeating myself 🤔🤔😜
Love it... I could just finally setup that coffee shop and just stand there and talk
External bms also give the advantage of being able to replace the bms without having to replace the cells. you can also select a bms that communicates in the way that you want it to instead of being stuck with some proprietary equipment or application.
Excellent video! Many tidbits not covered in other videos. Appreciate the candor. 👏
It took me a couple years to piece together all the info in this video. Our lithium system has been up and running for a couple years now and we love it. Great video and very informative!
Very interested in your communication discussion (network nerd here). Not interested in bluetooth but the CAN bus concept seems good.
That was a really excellent explanation about installing 'Lithion-ion' batteries in a boat. Succinct and easy to follow. Well done.
Thanks!
Great clarification on lithium, thank you. I'm in aviation maintenance and if the FAA made a decision on something it's because someone died, the rules are written in blood. If they sign off, I'm not going to contest it because I know what the cost was to get there.
This is an excellent video! One point that is consistently missed about BMS safety: If an extreme overvoltage event occurs (imagine a lightning hit, alternator voltage regulator failure, or inductive flyback), especially when the battery is at a 100% state of charge where it will present nearly a zero load to charging -- the voltage rating of the BMS MOSFETs may be exceeded (say 60 volts for example), and one or more MOSFET may fail SHORTED. In which case, all forms of charging protection has vanished. BMS overvoltage protection is only valid provided the overvoltage does not exceed the MOSFET junction ratings.
In my own sailboat installation, I have "crowbar" didoes: 18 volt 100 watt zeners installed across each battery's terminals to absorb a momentary voltage transient to protect the BMS MOSFETs. It only takes microseconds to fry a MOSFET junction. I've never seen a BMS with this protection.
Thank you Ryan. It's great that LiFePO4 starting batteries are ready for marine service. Is there are market for an even smaller starting battery for 10-25hp outboards? Or is the Dakota 60ah the smallest you'd want to go? Every lb in your tender hanging off the back of the boat and being drug up the beach matters. Thanks!!
Excellent teaching, Ryan! Thanks.
Never to expect an education of battery system from my old next door, totally awed! Great content and great delivery!
Haha... Awesome! Good to year from you Younger! For anyone reading... Younger and his wife saved me one day after i broke my ass and got locked out of my apartment. I will never forget his kindness!
@@RyanSophieSailing Haha, I did not save you - you failed to kill yourself. How about an episode on locksmith? 😅
Absolutely agree 100% 👍🏼 well done video. I have a 100% electric LiFePo boat and can't agree more with the information you provided. Keep bringing important topics on proper LiFePo battery installation. Thank you!
Our Dakota Lithium batteries (4 x 280 AH) are ordered and on the way to Maverick in Guatemala!! So excited! Thanks for the great info and a fantastic product, Ryan!
Love the video. I have installed lithium on my boat, and switched my starter batteries to Dakota 65ah last spring. Love them. One thing that’s very important is making sure that either you isolate lithium from standard starting batteries from your house charger and alternator or like you said do a b2b charging set up. Lifo is pretty expensive which is hard to swallow for starter batteries but that whole profile thing is pretty important considering cross connection options that come on some boats. Thanks for sharing as lithium is really a great and overall economical option!
This is a good point. The different battery packs will all be at different SOC so you need to have them charge separately.
Well, I thought I knew a bit about batteries? Wrong, now I know à lot more! Thank you for your very excellent and factual presentation.
One of the best overviews I have heard to date.
Ryan knows his stuff init. I noticed the inverters seem to all be 120V AC being advertised on the website but after reading the datasheet they support both 50 and 60 Hz with 120 and 240. Just wondered given in the UK we use 220 - 240V AC?
Great video, thank you.
I use Lithium phosphate batteries in my RV.... as three 100AH 12v.... I was considering a DC to DC charger for when there is not enough solar and use the RV alternator...... But I calculated the resistance in 8 meters of 10 mm square copper cable (good for 50 amps)...was enough to limit the charge current from the alternator to under 50 amps and protect the alternator from over load....... To me it proved a DC to DC charger was an unessasary requirement or expense.
I have also installed 50 amp circuit breakers on each of the batteries....and take advantage of the internal resistance of the circuit breakers to balance discharge currents in a limited way......
In practice as you suggest the lithium battery terminal volts remains relatively low until the batteries are fully charged.....and this makes for much more efficient charging from solar photo voltaics.... a match made in heaven is my experience compare with lead acid.
thanks again!
Thanks for the excellent videos on lithium! To save space on my twin-diesel powered sport cruiser, the manufacturer installed three 12v lead acid batteries in parallel for a combined 300ah house/port starting bank. As the bank is doing double duty, the batteries are deep cycle, which is obviously not optimal for starting. Based on your videos, Dakota website and multiple other sources, I am considering individual lead acid starting batteries vs new Dakota starting + deep cycle batteries with a (mostly) independent LiFePo4 house bank (ACR or combiner) . A few questions for you: 1) Assuming externally regulated alternators, any reason at all to go with lead acid vs new combo batt? 2) Is there really a reason to keep a separate house bank if I were to go with the new combo batteries (I’d like to make use of the extra capacity)? 3) If not, would you mix combo and deep cycle Dakota batts in the house/starting bank? Looking forward to hearing your take! Randy
Brilliant Ryan, as always.
I would add that the external BMS gives you the opportunity to connect your lifepo batteries in series while the internal BMS only allow parallel connections.
Really excellent presentation Ryan , congratulations!
FANTASTIC VIDEO !!
I'm already into LiFePo so I'm up to speed on the issues....just to say you covered all the issues really well, and VERY articulately and easily followed...THANK YOU !
...one thing about alternators though...those of us that switched to AGM years ago SHOULD have already switched to a high-output, i.e. high-charge-rate alternator when we switched to AGM, because that's AGM's best feature too...they can take pretty much all you can dish out to them...since there's no liquid acid you need to worry about boiling....
...so our AGM high output alternator shouldn't have much, if any problem dishing it out to our new LiFePo's.
Dakota batteries?? Have you seen the tear downs, they have the cheapest internals around. Why not something good like roypow with victron comms, t class fuse and so much more. I don't understand why people even choose Dakota lithiums. What's the reasoning there?
Loved this. I do have one thought though. I think you said to connect the alternator to the lead acid start battery and then use a DC-DC charger to charge the LPO bank. That is a good idea for small banks and stock alternators that are not externally regulated. However with large lithium banks, and externally regulated alternators, charge the lithium bank, then a smaller DC-DC charger to charge the start battery AND adjust the alternator to account for the big draw of LPO AND protection for the alternator in case of BMS disconnect.
Très instructif et je crois que c'est la première fois que je l'entends autant parler ^^
Ryan - internal / external BMS - Re long term storage the external BMS can be disconnected so that over months the trickle current to run the BMS doesn't flatten the batt - I owned a yacht LA batt years ago but have 300A LFP in the caravan and they don't like to be floated so if not using the van I disconnect all loads and disconnect the BMS and the LFP is stored at 40-50% charge which is how they are shipped and need a top up and discharge back to the 40% every 6 months or so - unlike Lead acid that love being in float with a charger connected 24/7 - great vlog and well explained - Good to see Dakota changing and modernising their options - electronics is always changing - ex electronic engineering background from valves to semiconductors constant retraining just to keep up - now retired and have taken on the rear reclining armchair admiral role of dispensing free advice - clicked and subscribed well done
Most lithiums with internal BMS cant sit for years without serious reduction in SOC . the bigger issue is that the cells start to degrade. Good thoughts though
It is amazing what a few years of vloging can do, knowledge aside you have become a very articulate, persuasive speaker. great info, great video. Thank you for sharing
I really like the Ryan's tech corner episodes.
Most outstanding presentation your explanation is extremely comprehensible
The best video on this subject....I am buying a beneteau oceanis 60.....you have clarified my thoughts on battery instalation...
You hit the nail on the head. 1) Simple if you don't know what your doing then Don't do it. 2) You could be the cause of a fire or even death. 3) Never believe a salesmen they lie to get a sale, and often have know idea about what they are selling.
I was about to climb all over this thinking that this was going be wrong on so many levels…..I was wrong. Good job! One thing that I’d like to mention is, If an LFP batter does enter thermal runaway, it is not as severe as a cobalt containing battery. LFP cells don’t generate as much oxygen so those fire can be extinguished.
Would not normally see the level of experience on lithium-based batteries on a sailing channel but great to see. One crucial point to add is a suggestion to read the specifications of the supplier of the batteries prior to buying or installing due to some battery types / brands can only have three batteries in a parallel bank or pod or two batteries in series e.g. 2 x 12v for 24volt DC vessels or like for e.g. Mastervolt multiple batteries configuration you will need the mastervolt own software for the mastervolt Czone system configuration.
On a side note, if installing Victon systems the company has the Lynx Distributor (fuse monitoring) which is a modular DC bus bar, with locations for four DC fuses. It will monitor the status of each fuse and indicate its condition with a LED on the front. Part of the modular Lynx distribution system
Two questions.
Are there installation guidelines for preventing damage to the batteries while en route to prevent a UPS 6 scenario? I understand those batteries were damaged during loading, but the point stands that external trauma to the battery can start the process of thermal runaway.
Second, what procedures are recommended for crews who do experience thermal runaway? Do you simply put the fire out with an ABC fire extinguisher and then flood the battery compartment? Throw them overboard?
I know you understand these risks as a pilot, and I'm curious how you've taken those best practices from the aviation world and applied them to these threats.
Thanks
I REALLY want to know this too.
Most Valuable! -- Knowledge is "Power", pun intended. Anyway, we all need to understand this lithium thing, because we will all be living with it going forward.
Thanks, Ryan. Clear and very informative. Much appreciated.
This video is so much needed for people!
Thank you for what appears to me to be a very factful and honest presentation. This will become a resource for me when it becomes appropriate.
great video! you asked, so here you go: we have 300 ah@24v and 2 alternators that will put out 350a @2,100 rpm. The batteries have a max recommended charge current of 1.3c. (the engines are 12v and also small lithium with 15a B to B ) edit: a few years ago, the batteries were underwater for 3 days. While they (and the wire's attached to them) were destroyed, there was no other harm caused by them
Great video... Why is a "starter" battery still needed? I don't see why the house bank can't do the job these days.
Just found my way to the channel a few weeks ago and had no clue there were videos like this on it also. I really love geeking out on things but from time to time I also enjoy an overview on a subject that I am not confident enough to say I completely understand to help me see what I need to study up on. Thanks for the information.
Great video ! I have a couple of very specific questions : Although I am not using Lithium in a boat/sailing application, I am interested in the Dakota Lithium Starter battery (24 group 12v/135a) to use in an off road vehicle. In my case, a basic 1st gen Toyota Tacoma with a standard Denso 80amp alternator. 1. you mentioned "dump" and external regulation, does the Dakota provide "regulation" with it's internal BMS - on the "starter" version of this battery ? I could use a Balmar surge protector inline on the alternator for dump protection, but how could I manage the voltage regulation from a 20+ year old alternator ? 2. You also mentioned heat (thermal runaway) , my application would be for much desert high-heat driving conditions, I assume the BMS would protect the battery from over-heating, but what makes the Dakota different from other LifePo4 batteries that typically have a 120F max ? Can Dakota withstand more external and internal heat exposure ? I reached out to Dakota and they told me "not problem" and as long as my alternator is less than 135, everything would be as you say " a drop in replacement" I imagine you have sailed in high heat temps and I assume those batteries in the hull are not cooled by a fan. Any advise, opinion would be much appreciated . Thanks ! Eric, Tucson AZ
Environmental impact? Manufacturing and disposal? Cost to replace?
That was great. Ryan you are exactly right about finding a marine electrical technician to do or help with the install. Most are just interested in selling stuff and have very limited or zero real knowledge or experience. I’m been thinking of making the change for awhile and I’ve made sure when I had to get a new inverter/charger it had a lithium setting. Same with my mttp controller. As for my alternator, it had an internal regulator and it’s charge output after a few minutes is so low it almost useless. In order to make a switch worthwhile I think I will need a new belt system for a new alternator a long with a regulator that is a bit more flexible, programmable and can talk to the other components. That probably my next step with batteries after that. A few years ago when I got out 3000 watt inverter/charger to run my wife’s air blower I pit in all new wires for the batteries. They are massive and all are doubled up. Just for smiles I think she has used the hair blower three times! 😊. Thank you again for the informative video. I will definitely look at getting your batteries when I make the change.
Ryan that was a very good explanation of the problems and myths of lithium batteries.I’m very interested in this,Thank you for explaning why there can be problems if done incorrectly.
Thank you Ryan for this and other videos on the subject. Great help and will explore Dakota for my project.
Hi Ryan, I really quite enjoy this episode. Thanks for the tech talk.
You do a good job explaining things.
Hi Ryan, great video, very informative.
I’m seeing an increasing number of people online promoting the idea of skipping the DC DC charger between the lead Acid starter battery and the Lithiums and just using a “long Lead” to drop the voltage to the “correct” level for Lithium charging.
I believe this to be frankly madness, but would be grateful if you could consider mentioning in a video the flaws in this idea.
Your credibility would make the argument a lot more convincing.
Hi Ryan and Sophie. Thank you for a great video! I'm in contact with Dakota to replace my house bank with Li. Question: I also have the stock 80 amp alternator on my Oceanis. Your discussion on alternators makes sense. I don't go nuts with offshore sailing but if heat is a critical factor in alternator function and especially while charging Li batteries at idle or low RPMs, why not just have a temperture switched, high velocity fan to blow tons of cooling air directly through the alternator to cool it? Wouldn't that be a cost-effective solution for the day sailer/raft up sailer? Thanks in advance!
The issue with most lithium batteries is that most manufacturers recommend against using them for high current (start, bowthruster, windlass) loads, obliging you to retain some type of lead acid battery system for those loads on board. Worse, however, all smart charger manufacturers, advise that their chargers are only suitable for one battery chemistry, obliging you to have two (or more) totally separate and isolated means of charging (ie no manual or automatic combiner) each system. Is Dakota any different? I see that they offer one suitabl for high current loads but is the chemistry and charging profile the same as for deep cycle applications? In other words, could one retain a configuration similar to a conventional lead acid system ie one single smart charger and an automatic combiner?
I don’t have any lead acid batteries on my charter boat, I use lithium for house and a Maxwell start capacitor for just the starter motor, the alternator charges the house lithium and the Maxwell has an inbuilt dc to dc charger.
In the UK there’s a company called Lynch , all they do is Marine Electric and Hybrid engines and the installation of them , They are a reputable company in the sailing community in the UK and Europe.
Thanks Ryan for the educational information. 👍
Very interesting, thank you. I have a camper van on order with solar power and a lithium battery. Will now investigate the specifications more!
Thanks for a good summary. Very helpful.
Respect to you and your business and thanks for being upfront about your affiliation. I build my own batteries and is currently running test on a 48V system. To up the total capacity I'm working my way up to parallel connect multiple 48V strings, where each string has its own dedicated BMS. What is your view on using this method to increase capacity? I'm a bit worried about balancing issues
It’s funny because we’ve always been very straight forward about Ryan’s involvement with Dakota Lithium, but the brand has gone much farther than we have since we first installed them on Polar Seal 😅 I’ll let Ryan address the question though, cause I have no idea 🤪
I may help here. RUclips site Off-Grid Garage has done exactly what you are doing and tested thoroughly. Basically, you can have a separate BMS on each 48V bank and they will balance between each other as the highest charged bank will deliver first and then when it reaches the level of another bank it will stop delivering and the other bank will take over. This leads them to self balance. Keep in mind that each bank is balanced with its own BMS. Also, he top balanced first time. There are many of his videos on the construction. Banks are all different from 280AH to 304AH and each has a different BMS.
ruclips.net/video/mkelEzVNmIE/видео.html
@@SoundzAlive1 Thanks a lot. That's exactly what I'm looking for 🙂 My only problem is that I'm drawing a lot of power. Something like 50kW. If all the power is drawn from one string, I'm worried it may deteriorate faster. I hope I can mitigate this problem by using identical cells and BMS. I guess I'll just have to try and then measure the draw on each string to see the load distribution over time.
I might have missed it, but there was no mention of cell and pack voltage and the differences between chemistries. For example, you "could", at a long shot, get away with LiFe packs and a standard lead acid charger. The peak voltage of 14.5V is compatible. The fact the lead acid charger will attempt a float at 13.6V will just result in 0 current flowing. What WILL however ruin your day (without a BMS or protection circuit), is if your lead acid charger has a hidden "boost equalisation" feature and every few days hits the batterys with 15V for a while. No protection, that could go wrong.
However, attempting anything like that with a standard cobolt oxide with a max cell voltage of 4.2V and a probably pack voltage limit of 12.6V, bulk/boost mode up to 14.4V WILL cause fire if the protection circuit is missing or faulty.
I think when you get to packs the size you are dealing with for boats/rvs, I wouldn't want one without a BMS, and ideally internal per cell fuses. That stops pack runaways if a cell goes short or if enough cells start to die.
I'm looking at 100Ah lithium for a small off grip solar setup. The 100Ah leadacid is now 3 years old and I'd be lucky to get 20Ah out of it over 12V and if you put more than 5A on it, it sags under 12V already. Poor things been worked hard though and flattened twice (which probably did the most damage). It's also been given the "really hard slap" treatment, twice now, not going to work again. "Hard slap" is basically flatten it, then hit it with a 10 amp fizzing charge to try and refresh it some. Sometimes works for 'surface charge' issues, but usually shortens the overall life.
They are just so damned expensive and my charge controller does not have a lithium mode, so I'll have to set the charge voltage limits myself and make sure I disable EQ charge mode.
How waterproof is the case? If water gets inside the case, is there a chance that it will pool there? Would that damage the cells, and how quickly would the damage occur?
I do want to make the switch from lead acid batteries to Dakota Lithiums.
I have a much much smaller boat that the sail boat in this video, but love the water no less. I have a small boat I use for walleye fishing mainly. Which means I am trolling for hours on end, and need as much long lasting power as I can get. I use an 80lb thrust 24 volt motorguide trolling motor and 2 Lowrance sounders one of which has a 12” display and draws quite a bit of power itself. Plus I have them networked and also a heading sensor installed.
I’ve been running 3 optima yellow tops and a separate starting battery for the main engine. The yellow tops are, and this is no lie, are 13 years old. I have treated them good and in turn they have served me well. But it is now time to upgrade as I now get about 8 hours max service out of them as opposed to the 2 days max I used to get. Those 3 yellow tops were given to me by the way, so I really do not know their true age, I only know how long I have used them.
The main reason I haven’t made the switch yet is price. I do realize the initial investment will eventually pay for itself over time as opposed to buying new lead acid type batteries, but it is literally that initial investment that is prohibitive to me. You see, I am but a lowly diesel tech, with a family I am responsible towards. And, as I stated, the yellow top optimas were given to me, not purchased by me. So I am currently in the “how do I pay for these batteries” stage of making the switch. I can honestly say that for 3 12 volt 100 amp hour Dakota lithium batteries I would be willing to allow Dakota lithium to placard my boat with advertisements and would be more than happy to show anyone interested the set up in my boat in exchange.
One can dream
Well done Ryan, I feel like I have a much much greater understanding of lithium batteries 🔋 now. Thank you
Appreciate the presentation/explanation on lithium batteries. Am glad you put in the caveat on installers of lithium batteries as I’ve met far too many techs that were worthless. I’ll use this video as as primer for such batteries and I’ll watch it 1 or 2 more times . Thanks.
I've been utilising "Freedomwon" LiPo4 for 11Yrs with no issues at all manufactured here in South Africa. I've installed them in factories (500Kw X 4) house holds 30Kw X3 and boats 12VDc X 4-18. All with internal BMS systems against lead acid or gel any day or night.
Ryan, that was such a good, well balanced (excuse the Lithium pun!!) video. Lots of really sensible points. Thank you