Ssj3 gotenks being the only one would've been a perfect tori moment and a great call back to the lessons learned in the cell saga and the kids didn't learn cause of them literally not being born yet.
and it would go with the whole "next generation" thing goku had since he mastered ssj1 (not sure about 2), while gotenks would one-up him by mastering ssj3
Narratively i agree with Gotenks exclusively having SSJ3. However Goku going SSJ3 the first time and in Janemba movie was extremely hype. Sometimes you just don't know what could have been.
Haven't watched Dragonball Z in years but the explanation I recall hearing from the show was that Goku had a degree of mastery of the SSJ3 form but this mastery was obtained while he was dead and competing in other world battles but in the battles on Earth the form drained his time there and when he was brought back to life he realized just how draining the form was on his living body. Given this late discovery it makes sense imo that Goku would try to hold onto the form he utilized in other world in the hopes of one day surpassing that limit. However the fact that even Goku cant master the form in the living world kinda adds some prestige to the form and makes me think that one day if we ever saw the form mastered by Goku or otherwise that it would stack up against even the Super Saiyan God forms.
ssj3 is loved cuz its cool removed in a vacuum, in reality, tis a character assasination in the part of goku. But i dont really expect dragon ball fans to actually care about the story
I think i saw in a fan animation they made having a tail make SSJ3 actually usable to its maximum potential. I feel like they should have done something with that to make the form seem better
Goku cared too much about Vegeta and his pride to go ssj3 on him instead of having a tough fight. I’m sure he knew they could defeat Buu and wanted that challenge.
No he didn’t he never wanted Buu to be released in the first place Holding back would only hurt Vegeta’s pride which Goku has never held back in a fight
7:48 In my opinion Goku is the only person who has ssj3 is because it shows Goku's way of things. Remember goku is the type of guy to break his limits it shows Goku going further beyond. This is why Vegeta never got ssj3 he could never train enough to get this form. But my issue with ssj3 is how he didn't master it that's really stupid to me. Goku is the type of guy to learn about the form first, so he'd know about the stamina lost and start training to master it immediately and even if he couldn't master the form. Goku would master the ki drain/stamina drain. Goku did this with ssj when he realized the problems with ssj grades 2 and 3 the problems Vegeta and Trunk's failed to realize. And the T.O.P ssj3 scene really was just stupid. After all these years goku still hasn't mastered ssj3. At this point I just think the writers are doing a nostalgia bait by keeping ssj3 the same. But he's still my glorious king 🔥
Best way to use the form ironically enough is when you’re not even alive before you master it he11 even the saiyan cacs technically have a mastered version
You're cooking on most of that, but I have to argue that the part of "Vegeta could never train to this point" is only applicable in the buu saga. I imagine that during the however long jump between buu saga to battle of gods, Vegeta probably had the power to unlock it, but saw its ineffectiveness and tucked it away. Especially considering NOW, he should be more than capable of taking that form, it's just a point of "why would he?"
Yo I'm fr surprised, Carthu didn't mention every issue. Another MASSIVE issue is that Gotenks never, EVER uses SSJ2 because of the existence of 3. He's so NOT a warrior for someone with Saiyan blood that it's seething. EDIT: Move on, I've already seen Gotenks' SSJ2 hairstyle when entering 3. It's in the show, it just sucks. I also changed learned to use in that second sentence, just shit wording on my part.
@ADINO_STUDIO Hold on, just WHAT are you talking about? That's definitely not what was said... He said she might be able to make it to 3. Now, to be clear, I feel like it is obvious that 2 must be known to some extent to reach 3. I'm mainly having the issue with the fact that it's never shown or used by them, let alone individually. SSJ3's existence is exactly why SSJ2 Gotenks never is seen.
Gotenks has SS2. He just never had a reason to use it since he wanted to show of SS3 since that form got him out of the Room of Spirit and Time and matched Super Boo.
@@MereMere Nah actually, I'm taking back this whole comment. He actually shows off SSJ2 while turning into 3. Either way, you once again said something that someone else said and I then replied to.
I'm glad there are *some* people who actually think about dragon ball takes before saying shit, its refreshing to see people ACTUALLY READ THE FLIPPIN MANGA
Yeah which is why its even stupider he never got ssj3 back to the same level or close to the control he had when hes dead dead ssj3 goku had next to no down sided
@@FLYYADIGG24And EVEN Stupider That He Didnt Even Treat SS3 Like It Was SS And Master It Because It Basically Was SS Just.. More Energy And Stamina Draining ( Ignoring The Power Boost And The Appearance Change) Like Dam Was The Energy Drain THAT Bad Goku?!
Yeah your argument falls flat on its face when you realize that Goku also learned two ki sensitive techniques in both the Kaioken and the Spirit Bomb, while still dead. The Kaioken also not only drains him, but actively hurts him upon use. Plus if he ever uses beyond his natural limit that his body can handle, it will literally kill him. As his own energy would multiply far too much and cause him to implode. Yet Goku not only knew his limitations before he was revived, but alive as well. Unlike SSJ3, he would later reuse and master the form in greater levels, and finesse. Even somehow he has infinite ki while dead he should still know the amount used for a technique or form. He did not lose the ability to sense or manage Ki upon death. So there is no excuse why Goku inuniverse would not see the flaws of SSJ3. Especially for not freaking seven years.
@@TSO_SageThat's the point of the form though. If he mastered it then SSJ3 would be the new SSJ2 and then he would have to go further again to gain more power in exchange for stamina. You can't really master it bcuz the whole point is pushing urself to your limits
Honestly most of everything is just facts. Personally tho I've always liked that it wasn't mastered, less because of that fitting goku(it does not fit at all, goku is always shown a prodigy himself, constantly understanding how he should use different forms and the value each holds), but i've always treated it as a form indicating a regression in Goku's mindset. It's tied to him because without him it wouldn't exist (whether you agree it should have been a gotenks exclusive or not). Him being clouded in the fact he NEEDS someone to succeed him leads him to create a new form that isn't 100% natural and should not realistically exist. Thus it being created imperfect from the beginning leads to it's inability to be mastered. Whereas ssj2 feels like a natural extension to ssj, and the concepts talked about in cell. Ssj3 feels radically different, in the way the eyebrows disappears and the hair grows. To me that's like what ssj would be if it slowly started turning you into an oozaru (which is essentially ssj4). So it kind of being the odd duckling heightens why i like it. It being discarded also adds to that feeling it gives me. Now that a new avenue has been opened up there's no use for a form like that, it should stay in the past. However it really is overrated, between appearing in the messiest DBZ arc, and essentially being an form you could remove with super minor tweaks. To me the only real argument you have for it's existence is goku vs kid buu, since goku being the only real one to hang comes off that form, but even than it's not like you couldn't do something like that without it. Nor does that really give you any added value besides vegeta admitting his admiration for goku.
I agree on the points of ssj3 being redundant, tho I do think ssj3 being used by goku wasn’t exactly regression to the full extent. It makes goku a troll and a liar and regresses a bit, yeah. But goku didn’t really know how extensive the drawbacks of ssj3 were until he was in a living body. Nor did he expect to get as tired from it as he did. He just knew it made him so much more faster and stronger but was hard to maintain. Which depending on how ya think of it, makes it a better form than grades 2 and 3.Plus it’s also not said how long goku even had access to ssj3 to even have mastered it. Could’ve been 7 years, could’ve been 7 months. It’s just said during those 7 years he learned ssj3. If anything, I think ssj3 should’ve been used as an absolute last ditch effort. It makes goku so much more powerful than ssj2 yet he can’t maintain it for long so he should use it to try to end battles as quickly as possible that he wouldn’t be able to with ssj2.
Yeah I always thought that SSJ3 could have had been handled more like the Z movies or more like Kaioken, were he's in SSJ2 for most of the fight and is a bit weaker than the enemy and then goes SSJ3 for quick burst during attacks or defending since it's such a huge jump in power, similar to the SSG-SSB switch in DBS but with SSJ2 and SSJ3. All of a sudden it has so much more use it isn't even funny, or again use it more like the movies where he uses it for longer and tries risking it all, it would add a lot more tension the the fights
I would recommend that you react to Carthu’s video on Orange Piccolo called The Road to Orange Piccolo. He gives a good reason onto why Orange is a good form. And also this video is right, ssj3 is not very good in hindsight the more I think about it.
I really do believe Toriyama made SSJ3 just to have a new and stronger headliner transformation for the saga. Each saga in Z had a new and stronger headliner form, Saiyan saga had Kaioken Frieza saga had SSJ, Cell saga had SSJ2, Why not keep up the same trend? With the little to no foreshadowing SSJ3 had I truly believe Toriyama made SSJ3 right after the Majin Vegeta fight to have a form for the front page
I always found it weird that goku put soo much hope onto goten and trunks without having spent much time with them. A lot of ppl like to link that as the same situation as gohan but its not he trained with gohan in the time chamber and knew gohan's power and was confident gohan could beat cell thats why they left the chamber early
@@Bobby-lo3kj Goku can see the potential but never beyond that. He knew for a fact Gohan can beat Cell…If he was a fighter which Goku didn’t think about. He knew Gotenks could beat buu but didn’t think about how immature as fighters they are as well as Fat buu becoming Super Buu.
I like what Zeon and Aggro said about Super Saiyan 3. It's a power form used for ending a fight quickly, but that's not how Goku fights. Basically if you can't get the job done in 5 min as SSJ3, you aren't gonna get the job done at all as SSJ2
It is kinda crazy and in a way hilarious that Toriyama introduced new concepts such as SSJ3, Fusions, and Gohan getting another power boost for the Buu arc just for the main villain to be defeated by a concept introduced back in the Saiyan Saga with the Spirit Bomb
Ngl SSJ3 will always be one of my favourite forms. it’s design is great, it has a downside which allows goku to learn and improve from it and it’s also badass as fuck
3:19 I think this point specifically was where Carthu really cooked. I always assumed the energy emitted transferred into Buu's awakening cause that's literally all anyone uses as a counter to why Goku shouldn't have gone SSJ3 against Vegeta. The knowledge that only Babadi's minions can increase the resurrection is much worse in Goku's case cause he literally could've stopped all of this by just knocking Vegeta out. I feel like there's him trolling because he thinks Buu's a threat that can be neutralized easily when he is awake and then there's him actively helping the reawakening by not going all out. Honestly, I much prefer it being Gotenks exclusive because it leads to a couple less issues.
Thinking about it, Super Saiyan 3 reminds me of what Super Saiyan Rage is in my opinion. Both are new forms that have massive potential under the right circumstances but we’re never realized to their fullest potential because of the writing. Don’t get me wrong, Goku going SSJ3 against Buu will always be an iconic moment in Z. But SSJ3 was quickly sidelined after God and Blue were introduced with it only being used in a few cases. (Goku’s level 3 in Fighterz, stopping Trunks’ sword to power gauge, the Dragon Fist in Warth of the Dragon.)
There was a comment by toriyama where he says that when designing 3 he thought it was 2. Without that oversight and a bit of foreshadowing it woulda been fine. Also you asked why he didn’t master it, in GT it’s implied that he did when he literally says if I had my adult body this would be much easier. He also says it’s easier in other world.
I think because ssj3 was one taped by beerus and it has a drain stamina but if your body is dead it has infinite energy even the transformation is iconic fusion reborn and wrath of the dragon with the transition
Goku black masterd Ss3 seen in Heros sprouting eyebrows. It can be used as a counter Atk like when Trunks uses his grade 3 form just for counters. Maybe it's due to the fact that he didn't have his tail present. Since it's technically an Oozaru variant.
I agree w/ the standpoint that the form is underwhelming wholeheartedly… HOWEVER, it does make sense that Goku was the one who found it because of the fact that in the other world, Goku was fighting day in and day out with no stamina drain, no energy drain just straight hooping for the love of the game. SSJ3 is an otherworldly transformation that is understandably difficult to translate back into the living world. The next problem with the form is that it’s hard to even train. Either his sparring partner would get packed up too quickly for him to really get a chance to use the form, or they are of divine energy. There’s no real in between. Majin Buu and maybe Ultimate Gohan are the only two that could possibly hang with Goku, but Ultimate Gohan isn’t limited by stamina so he pretty much wins by default, and majin buu would literally only be there to be a punching bag until Goku gets tired.
I love the video and agree completely it's a waste of a form. I feel ss1 is the limit break and ss2 is from a place of angry or pain but ss3 has no purpose in the story. I always wonder why super kaioken wasn't used more than just for the filler underworld arc and honestly it would make more sense if goku wanted to kill buu it's a technique and it would make sense why he didn't fight for a while and would be consistent with his serious view on buu as a threat. That just my thoughts but alwaysfantastic video
Here is the funny thing. GT did Their transformations better I Always found it interesting that DBZ was about "MY ULTIMATE FORM" everyone said its my ultimate form this ultimate form that. And saiyans are like the only mutants trying to get better forms I always thought that it was the narrative to push to that peak where you are whole in body and spirit SSJ4 Did that fuck in GT Goku getting his tail and mastering his saiyan side gave him SSj3 without any stamina drain he was missing the control he got as a saiyan something he lost for so long due to the negativity it brought. They didnt do it perfectly but the motive and narrative was there SSJ4 was just an evolution and the perfect form rather than another super saiyan form. And here is something funny. In GT, Z, Super when a saiyan is transformed if they get beaten and knocked out they get knocked out of the form. SSJ4 is the only transformation where its impossible to get knocked out of the form. on top of that training in SSJ4 Actually increases your base at the same time where as the other forms just improve the form
My problem with SSJ3 is just that it feels like a step backwards from the lessons learned when mastering Super Saiyan. Goku knew there was a form that surpassed Super Saiyan but decided not to use it cause of the handicaps, choosing to instead to master the normal Super Saiyan to the point it doesn’t drain any energy from him. Edit: I’ll also add I feel the only thing SSJ3 adds in the original story is the Vegeta number one scene. To me I don’t know how that scene would’ve worked without SSJ3 as it shows Vegeta that no matter how hard he pushes himself Goku will always find a way to go further which causes him to finally respect Goku. Without SSJ3 I don’t know how that scene would play out
Except Grade 4 didn't beat Cell. Stamina is useless if you don't have the power to keep up. Grade 4 was mainly about retaining agility. In the afterlife where energy drain is mitigated, SSJ3 is a reasonable continuation.
if goku ever mastered super saiyan 3 and made its energy drain near negligible or completely nonexistent and amped it by mixing it with kaoken it would be a monster i mean now a days it would be seen as nothing because the god forms but it sounds like it could nearly compare to super saiyan 4
He had super saiyan 3, but it was unstable transformation. That's what he was trying to explain to everyone he had the power. Yes, but it wasn't something he could easily tap into or control and he knew it would run out his time he had for his day on earth, everybody misses that detail though.
There's an ENTIRE fan manga dedicated to Vegito literally being called Ultra Vegito. Regardless of what you think about it, that should speak towards SSJ3 being less popular, as that shit is hella blown up now.
I think a cool story for a SSJ3 Vegeta would be if Vegeta still forces Goku into the fight and during this fight, Vegtas new Majin power unlocks SSJ3 catches Goku off guard, and loses to Vegeta legitimately Vegeta tries SSJ3 against Buu It still doesn’t work and he does final explosion as a last-ditch effort.
The SSJ3 problem is because its hard to animate.... thats why we had the god forms, way easier to animate cause all you had to do is change the hair colour and the aura...
Ssj3 is a BAD, but the only person(s) that make sense to have that form…..would be gotenks Hear me out. Goku wanted Goten and Trunks to be the next defenders of earth, right? Imagine instead of Goku, Gotenks is the one who unveils ssj3. That’s hypebeast for the simple fact that the tots unlocked a new ssj form, which furthers Goku’s “finding a successor” agenda. BUT due to their inexperience as fighters and just for being tots, they don’t master it. Ssj3 actually fits a character like Gotenks, NOT Son Goku
if i’m not mistaken SS3 is a “Other World” exclusive form. when Goku was dead he had unlimited ki, so stamina and ki drain wasn’t a problem over there. He didn’t account for it to drain him so quickly while on earth. Not sure if that’s true or holds much water but i believe i read it somewhere.
I doubt this is an "otherworld exclusive" thing. Besides the fact that its entirely unheard of despite how common transformations are in this universe, I feel like if Goku just had higher stamina then he would get this form regardless. We have no idea if ki can translate to a single aspect or it HAS to be everything at once, but hypothetically he could just start small, increase his stamina, and get the transformation then. After thats said and done, he can make it bigger and better
Love the video. Vegeta using ssj3 makes no sense either... Cell literally tells trunks that Vegeta could've done the same thing but he wasn't stupid enough to think grade 3 would work on any1 hence why Vegeta fought cell in grade 2. Personally I think he may have went grade 3 while charging the final flash. But it's never stated either way. It would make sense considering he challenged cell to stand there and take the attack and not dodge it before charging it
Super saiyan 3 is one of my favorites based on cool factor ngl, it it’s defense Goku can’t “master” Super Saiyan 3, because it’s not natural. Goku learned it when he was dead and he didn’t have a physical body. Goku only used super saiyan 3 as MAX power. Only time he’s used 3 is when he’s absolutely needed to… but then that just raises the question of why it was created in the first place so I guess he’s right wow. To make it better, having gotenks actually be effective with it but that means he’d have to be useful fr
I might be overlooking something but Goku doesnt use ssj3 a lot in the buu saga and im pretty sure thats because its an inefficient transformation. he only uses it when ssj2 cant do the job or when they are literaly gonna DIE if not used. Plus if goku had a ssj3 transformation that didnt consume energy then he might have beat kid buu at the end of the arc and then i have to bring up sages arrgument he uses a lot...."what are you sacrificing to have these changes?"
My issue with SSJ3 is that it dismisses the whole mastery element that was the build up to SSJ2. SSJ2 had a whole saga dedicated to Goku and Vegeta both trying to figure out how to master Super Saiyan and go beyond. SSJ3 just feels like a situational move like Kaioken. Good for a quick powerup but bad for a longer fight. It doesn't represent any kind of greater mastery or understanding of the Super Saiyan form. It's just a temporary raw power increase.
It's funny as fuck how in the future trunks arc in the manga, Trunks masters SSJ2 to the point it's about as strong as SSJ3 lol making SSJ3 look even more stupid
Ssj3 if it was gotenks exclusive transformation would've made it slighty better and followed by goku who trains to make it better. Because that form has the same issues of grade 3 like whaaaat?
I agree that ssj3 is not a good form overall, but the regression argument not so much. Wouldn't there be a point where the raw boost in power overshadows the drawback of energy use?
SSJ3 gets worse when you remember that he unlocked it offscreen while dead. You know what else Goku learned while dead that has nasty side effects as well that are arguably worse? Kaioken. Yes it’s a technique, but he learned all about it even with higher tiers while dead. So he knew the risks and it limitations even before he was revived. So even after he pushed himself using it he later resolved to continue to use it at higher levels of intensity but with greater tolerance to maintain. He manages to reach up to 20x in Namek and not implode due too much energy build up. Why? Because Goku saw the flaws and sought to overcome them and make it work for him better. However you are going to say that’s a technique it does not count. Okay fair enough nitpicker, how about this this example. Super Saiyan Blue. It was introduced out of nowhere, unlocked offscree, and has a stamina draining effect upon each start up. Huh sounds familiar right? However unlike SSJ3! Both Goku and Vegeta learn better versions of the for, that negate the issues it had when it was first introduced. Heck to the point Vegeta unlocked a new version of it with SSBE and Goku combining it with Kaioken to make SSBK. While SS3 was unlocked way earlier with Goku seeming doing freak all to properly master it to lessen the energy issues and just thought, “Yeah I’m good”, FOR SEVEN YEARS. More if you count DBS. There is literally no excuse why Goku could not have realized, (whether he was dead or alive), it’s flaws and learn or try to circumvent them. Face it SSJ3 just sucks.
Ssj3 is hurt worst by super Cause Gotenks gets one shorted the whole show. If Gotenks had showed up as Ssj3 in super hero, and low key had it down to master it to no power drain would be a great way to put him On there level. They deserve some love and I’m glad that Goten still has his Rizz from GT!
@@BlaxkSun I mean what is there to really explain it just doesn’t make much sense. As soon as he witnessed Vegeta turn SSJ2 he should have busted out SSJ3. I believe Toriyama just didn’t come up with it at the time or at least a finalized design. If he did it’s just terrible writing.
@@shangothunder1055 Goku for intent and purposes didn’t know or think Vegeta had SSJ2. He thought he was going to just roll Vegeta, literally in the actual exchange in the manga, which for some reason people don’t read for the actual context, Goku said I’m going to finish this quick went SSJ2 then Vegeta responded in kind transformed to SSJ2 himself and told him it won’t be that easy. SSJ3 would’ve drained him out completely in a fast amount of time which everyone seems to forget about
Ssj3 should be a better version of grade 2 and three with more speed and agility but the stamina drain isn’t that bad but it’s still there and also maybe a precursor to super Saiyan four
Issue with the theory is that you both worked so hard to prove yourselves right that you didn’t look hard enough for reasons why you might be wrong. Just from memory I’m sure Goku in the anime mentioned the stamina drain wasn’t an issue in other world why he didn’t think about the drawbacks of the form until he was back on earth, then by the time a new threat came along he was already far beyond 3 so yes, of course there’s no point “mastering” it..:Waste of time
What if now hear me out Vegeta unlocks super Saiyan 3 and his fight with buu. But he still has to resort to final atonement because of the energy drain
3 месяца назад
12:00 im pretty sure universally people thought he didnt use ssj3 against vegito because he didnt wanna hurt his pride and was stalling me personally it makes sense but i don't like it goku shouldve turned ssj3 and told him he'll never reach the form because of his mind set and the way he trains and one tap him vegeta will realize tht he's been going about his training and everything else wrong and does a whole 180 and well see his character progression throughout the ar so when he says at the end when goku is fighting buu " u better then me kakarot" it would hold more weight
I do agree ssj3 at this point is a bad form (worst? Nah bruh that’s rage for sure). But some things off the top of my head I can remember about it was that Goku says he didn’t have much time to master ssj3 before he was brought to earth. But going into the kid buu fight I think it’s more of an actual showing where he’s worn out by using the form but had to just to fight kid buu. If the story had him going ssj2 then it would be weird to see Vegeta stalling for time after while getting his princely ass beat having the same form. Aside from that, super truly made that form irrelevant with forms that also become kind of irrelevant. Also the thing about Vegeta having ssj3 we have in ego now haha
What I hate about the "oh goku the one who mastered super saiyan made an inefficient form" argument is that GOKU DID NOT KNOW SINCE HE HAD INFINITE STAMINA IN HEAVEN. OML
@@DgSezn No, the difference between goku being dead in the afterlife and Vegeta being dead was Vegeta was granted a pass, the same pass Goku got when he went to Earth for 1 day and we know that body has stamina while Goku being in the afterlife(Dead goku who cannot physically teleport to earth) has INFINITE STAMINA. Goku even stated that SS3 is a form only to be used in the afterlife because on earth (even with his dead body pass) He gets exhausted while in the afterlife he doesn't, he doesn't even feel the effects and says so himself when he regained his life.
@@Jeff-fo3ck Goku has been shown to to use too much energy in the afterlife that’s the whole reason he had to run on it instead of flying and why he used the nimbus instead of flying He never said ss3 never put strain on his body or that he didn’t know about the energy drain cause he said having a living body uses up even more energy
The after life still has the same rules on ki if you use too much you will still run out of it otherwise the Kaio-Ken would be able to stack Infinitely
I personally think when it comes to utility, ssg is by far the best transformation in db. It has healing properties, carries a technique tht can trap enemies behind god ki, has no sorts of energy drain issues like ssb or ss3 nd is more efficient n general nd I stand on tht🤷🏾♂️. N fact I think ssb is like ss grade 2 nd tht goku and vegeta aren’t utilizing ssg properly
Hmm well he transform in ssj3 instantly in super, not in buu saga. SSj3 could be master if I'm thinking about it, he could have used that form to end the fight if he going to use that off immediately, or even surprise buu with it.
Goku fighting kid buu and getting ssj3 and winning from there would have been much more better for the transformation,the moment itself is only legendary rest it has only taken Ls
I always thought of 3 as super sayian’s Kaioken form. A short burst of power with quick drawbacks. Honestly the biggest problem is that it didn’t get the fights to back it up. But neither did 2 or 4 but no one is ready for that discussion.
@@FarCryPrimalDefender nah 4 debuted and 2 episodes later needed a power up for the same fight. No other form reaches that level of washed so fast. 4 doesn’t have any wins under it that weren’t complete stomps.
Ssj2 Gohan was able to kill all the Cell Jr’s, brutally embarrass and Kill Cell, Kill Bojack, Trunks used it to kill Dabura in his timeline and Vegeta used it to kill Fat Buu despite regenerating again. Trunks even swapped between it and his buff form back and forth to keep up Blue Vegeta and it’s used a lot in Super.
1. SSJ2 Does have energy drain, Toriyama himself said so in interviews. 2. Why would Goku in the middle of super focus on mastering SSJ3 when he has other forms to master like Ultra Instinct and Super Saiyan Blue 3. The energy drain is there in SSJ3 because Goku can't handle this amount of energy, we know this because the more energy you have the harder it is to control 4. Goku using SSJ3 on Vegeta doesn't make sense because of the energy drain he wouldn't have enough energy to stall Majin Buu if he did use it on Majin Vegeta. 5. Goku not finishing Fat Buu with SSJ3 is Goku's fault not the form's fault, It isn't the first time Goku lied and it isn't the last. Goku is taking the threat of Buu very seriously, he is looking out for the future of the world, not just the present moment, it is also evident with Goku taking the responsibility of Buu when Gohan and Gotenks failed 6. SSJ3 is not like Grade 2 and Grade 3, those forms use the energy to make the muscles grow larger giving more physical power, SSJ3 simply draws your energy from deep within up to the very limit, the issue is Goku can't control all that energy which is why it leaks.
Why would goku need to stall majin buu if he just prevents his revival via knocking out vegeta? Its energy from goku taking damage from vegeta which gives him the energy, so goku if takes out vegeta no majin buu revival.
@@proud05645here's the text. Goku endlessly keeps getting stronger, with Super Saiyan 3 in the manga and Super Saiyan 4 in the anime; does Super Saiyan keep getting limitlessly stronger too? Might we eventually see things such as a Super Saiyan 5…?! Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more.
@@proud05645 Majin buu was still going to get revived due to his tank being half full and Gohan blasting him with all he had, supreme Kai even says that they should have fought him at half power from the start. Without Goku at SSJ3 Buu would slaughter everyone and Goku wouldn't have time to teach the Kids the dance much less collect the dragon balls.
your number 2 counterpoint is shit. There were 5 years between Maajin Buu Saga and Battle of Gods - we even see Goku training on King Kai's planet so we cant use a "wasnt training" excuse. What did he gain?
Mastered ssj3 should NOT have been a problem, god ki training should have negated the ssj3 power problem. god ki training explicitly, is training in making sure ki dose NOT LEAK FROM YOUR BODY . so why the hell is ssj3 not mastered yet!!!
'SSJ3 is regression for Goku because Grade 4' Except Grade 4 didn't beat Cell, stamina is useless if you dont have the raw stats to keep up. Grade 4 was created to maintain agility in battle, stamina preservation was a side effect, one Goku did acknowledge but it wasn't the main reason. So Grade 4 didn't beat Cell, a powered up version of Super Saiyan that maintains and boosts agility as well as strength did. That would be Goku's main takeaway. Under the pretense of the afterlife and its energy consumption mitigation, Goku creating SSJ3, a powered up form of Super Saiyan that retains and boosts agility as well as other stats seems reasonable. I have multiple other issues with Carthu's points, but I'll ask this, what proof do we have that Goku *hasn't* mastered SSJ3? Do we have any statements from Goku himself? 'Goku has a knack for stamina preservation' I mean he blatantly says he doesn't do that in the Moro arc. Grade 4 was really the only time.
![Megan Thee Stallion - Bigger In Texas [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/QxTkZTLWdo4/mqdefault.jpg)
peak react as per usual 🤝🤝🤝
L
Carthuuuu I seeee youuuu 👀
Cookout Certified 🔥
Wsg Carthu
@@Zamasu-op7zz 🤖🤖🤖🤖
Ssj3 gotenks being the only one would've been a perfect tori moment and a great call back to the lessons learned in the cell saga and the kids didn't learn cause of them literally not being born yet.
Exactly
erm ackshually🤓🤓🤓 trunks was born but he was also only a year old
@@emperortoho nooo not the nerd emoji 😭
and it would go with the whole "next generation" thing goku had since he mastered ssj1 (not sure about 2), while gotenks would one-up him by mastering ssj3
Ssj3 Goku looks really good as a mc Donald's employee
Vegeta and SSJ3 Goku serving Big Macs as a side hustle.
@@Generalmituna8079 fr
Even got the mc hairline kinda
Just put the fries in the bag, bro
@@Generalmituna8079 ur mituna pfp made me wince, I did not expect a fellow homestuck in here.
Narratively i agree with Gotenks exclusively having SSJ3. However Goku going SSJ3 the first time and in Janemba movie was extremely hype. Sometimes you just don't know what could have been.
Haven't watched Dragonball Z in years but the explanation I recall hearing from the show was that Goku had a degree of mastery of the SSJ3 form but this mastery was obtained while he was dead and competing in other world battles but in the battles on Earth the form drained his time there and when he was brought back to life he realized just how draining the form was on his living body. Given this late discovery it makes sense imo that Goku would try to hold onto the form he utilized in other world in the hopes of one day surpassing that limit. However the fact that even Goku cant master the form in the living world kinda adds some prestige to the form and makes me think that one day if we ever saw the form mastered by Goku or otherwise that it would stack up against even the Super Saiyan God forms.
if your looking for that I suggest any of the db fan Mangas that what you're looking for.
Goku going ssj3 for the first time is the coolest transformation scene in db to me beside ui
Learning about how Majin Buu's work with inflicting pain, makes me wonder how much f*cking energy came from VIdel?
guys videl did something
Gohan’s energy put that thing at half, and Spovobich killed some people prior to Babidi popping him like a balloon
The energy isnt from Videl the energy is from people with the Majin mark inflicted damage
@@davimaybeYeah and spopovich destroyed her
ssj3 is loved cuz its cool removed in a vacuum, in reality, tis a character assasination in the part of goku. But i dont really expect dragon ball fans to actually care about the story
I think i saw in a fan animation they made having a tail make SSJ3 actually usable to its maximum potential. I feel like they should have done something with that to make the form seem better
Ssj3 will always have a place in my heart love that form
Goku cared too much about Vegeta and his pride to go ssj3 on him instead of having a tough fight. I’m sure he knew they could defeat Buu and wanted that challenge.
the pride thing is dub only. his only excuse in the manga is he was scared of the time limit
he never mentioned it in the actual story.
@@CarthusDojo Damn, not even the sub huh 😂
@theinktician hes always ready lmao
No he didn’t he never wanted Buu to be released in the first place
Holding back would only hurt Vegeta’s pride which Goku has never held back in a fight
7:48 In my opinion Goku is the only person who has ssj3 is because it shows Goku's way of things. Remember goku is the type of guy to break his limits it shows Goku going further beyond. This is why Vegeta never got ssj3 he could never train enough to get this form. But my issue with ssj3 is how he didn't master it that's really stupid to me. Goku is the type of guy to learn about the form first, so he'd know about the stamina lost and start training to master it immediately and even if he couldn't master the form. Goku would master the ki drain/stamina drain. Goku did this with ssj when he realized the problems with ssj grades 2 and 3 the problems Vegeta and Trunk's failed to realize. And the T.O.P ssj3 scene really was just stupid. After all these years goku still hasn't mastered ssj3. At this point I just think the writers are doing a nostalgia bait by keeping ssj3 the same. But he's still my glorious king 🔥
Sorry if this is long and all but I just wanted to get this out.
Yeah I get what you mean it was definitely underutilized by the writers.
Best way to use the form ironically enough is when you’re not even alive before you master it he11 even the saiyan cacs technically have a mastered version
You're cooking on most of that, but I have to argue that the part of "Vegeta could never train to this point" is only applicable in the buu saga. I imagine that during the however long jump between buu saga to battle of gods, Vegeta probably had the power to unlock it, but saw its ineffectiveness and tucked it away. Especially considering NOW, he should be more than capable of taking that form, it's just a point of "why would he?"
Yo I'm fr surprised, Carthu didn't mention every issue. Another MASSIVE issue is that Gotenks never, EVER uses SSJ2 because of the existence of 3. He's so NOT a warrior for someone with Saiyan blood that it's seething.
EDIT: Move on, I've already seen Gotenks' SSJ2 hairstyle when entering 3. It's in the show, it just sucks. I also changed learned to use in that second sentence, just shit wording on my part.
@ADINO_STUDIO Hold on, just WHAT are you talking about? That's definitely not what was said... He said she might be able to make it to 3.
Now, to be clear, I feel like it is obvious that 2 must be known to some extent to reach 3. I'm mainly having the issue with the fact that it's never shown or used by them, let alone individually. SSJ3's existence is exactly why SSJ2 Gotenks never is seen.
Gotenks has SS2. He just never had a reason to use it since he wanted to show of SS3 since that form got him out of the Room of Spirit and Time and matched Super Boo.
@@MereMere Nah actually, I'm taking back this whole comment. He actually shows off SSJ2 while turning into 3. Either way, you once again said something that someone else said and I then replied to.
I'm glad there are *some* people who actually think about dragon ball takes before saying shit, its refreshing to see people ACTUALLY READ THE FLIPPIN MANGA
Goku actually didn’t know the side effects of ss3 until he used it in a living body.
Yeah which is why its even stupider he never got ssj3 back to the same level or close to the control he had when hes dead dead ssj3 goku had next to no down sided
@@FLYYADIGG24And EVEN Stupider That He Didnt Even Treat SS3 Like It Was SS And Master It Because It Basically Was SS Just.. More Energy And Stamina Draining ( Ignoring The Power Boost And The Appearance Change) Like Dam Was The Energy Drain THAT Bad Goku?!
Yeah your argument falls flat on its face when you realize that Goku also learned two ki sensitive techniques in both the Kaioken and the Spirit Bomb, while still dead. The Kaioken also not only drains him, but actively hurts him upon use. Plus if he ever uses beyond his natural limit that his body can handle, it will literally kill him. As his own energy would multiply far too much and cause him to implode. Yet Goku not only knew his limitations before he was revived, but alive as well. Unlike SSJ3, he would later reuse and master the form in greater levels, and finesse. Even somehow he has infinite ki while dead he should still know the amount used for a technique or form. He did not lose the ability to sense or manage Ki upon death. So there is no excuse why Goku inuniverse would not see the flaws of SSJ3. Especially for not freaking seven years.
kinda like the KAIOKEN right ? 😂 my issue still remains bro he never masters the form
@@TSO_SageThat's the point of the form though. If he mastered it then SSJ3 would be the new SSJ2 and then he would have to go further again to gain more power in exchange for stamina. You can't really master it bcuz the whole point is pushing urself to your limits
Honestly most of everything is just facts. Personally tho I've always liked that it wasn't mastered, less because of that fitting goku(it does not fit at all, goku is always shown a prodigy himself, constantly understanding how he should use different forms and the value each holds), but i've always treated it as a form indicating a regression in Goku's mindset. It's tied to him because without him it wouldn't exist (whether you agree it should have been a gotenks exclusive or not). Him being clouded in the fact he NEEDS someone to succeed him leads him to create a new form that isn't 100% natural and should not realistically exist. Thus it being created imperfect from the beginning leads to it's inability to be mastered. Whereas ssj2 feels like a natural extension to ssj, and the concepts talked about in cell. Ssj3 feels radically different, in the way the eyebrows disappears and the hair grows. To me that's like what ssj would be if it slowly started turning you into an oozaru (which is essentially ssj4). So it kind of being the odd duckling heightens why i like it. It being discarded also adds to that feeling it gives me. Now that a new avenue has been opened up there's no use for a form like that, it should stay in the past. However it really is overrated, between appearing in the messiest DBZ arc, and essentially being an form you could remove with super minor tweaks. To me the only real argument you have for it's existence is goku vs kid buu, since goku being the only real one to hang comes off that form, but even than it's not like you couldn't do something like that without it. Nor does that really give you any added value besides vegeta admitting his admiration for goku.
It's a forced form in every way, goku himself forced the form out, which i feel like fits.
If SS3 got that MacDonalds sponsorship then he ain’t doing too bad for himself
I purposely didn't watch this video when it came out just so I could react to with Sage.
Tomorrow Lonks Takes will be defending it! So hyped
Our hero!
I agree on the points of ssj3 being redundant, tho I do think ssj3 being used by goku wasn’t exactly regression to the full extent. It makes goku a troll and a liar and regresses a bit, yeah. But goku didn’t really know how extensive the drawbacks of ssj3 were until he was in a living body. Nor did he expect to get as tired from it as he did. He just knew it made him so much more faster and stronger but was hard to maintain. Which depending on how ya think of it, makes it a better form than grades 2 and 3.Plus it’s also not said how long goku even had access to ssj3 to even have mastered it. Could’ve been 7 years, could’ve been 7 months. It’s just said during those 7 years he learned ssj3. If anything, I think ssj3 should’ve been used as an absolute last ditch effort. It makes goku so much more powerful than ssj2 yet he can’t maintain it for long so he should use it to try to end battles as quickly as possible that he wouldn’t be able to with ssj2.
Yeah I always thought that SSJ3 could have had been handled more like the Z movies or more like Kaioken, were he's in SSJ2 for most of the fight and is a bit weaker than the enemy and then goes SSJ3 for quick burst during attacks or defending since it's such a huge jump in power, similar to the SSG-SSB switch in DBS but with SSJ2 and SSJ3. All of a sudden it has so much more use it isn't even funny, or again use it more like the movies where he uses it for longer and tries risking it all, it would add a lot more tension the the fights
My favorite streamer always come up with good content
Blud u aint even watch the vid💀💔
@@kaiOnTheWeb OK? AND
@@kaiOnTheWeb dude you know these videos are re-uploads from the stream, right
ssj 3 is such a letdown, goku never mastered it nor gets main Ws…😭😭
I would recommend that you react to Carthu’s video on Orange Piccolo called The Road to Orange Piccolo. He gives a good reason onto why Orange is a good form. And also this video is right, ssj3 is not very good in hindsight the more I think about it.
Sage and Carthu when it comes to SSJ3 takes:”My BESTFRIENDO!”
I really do believe Toriyama made SSJ3 just to have a new and stronger headliner transformation for the saga. Each saga in Z had a new and stronger headliner form, Saiyan saga had Kaioken Frieza saga had SSJ, Cell saga had SSJ2, Why not keep up the same trend? With the little to no foreshadowing SSJ3 had I truly believe Toriyama made SSJ3 right after the Majin Vegeta fight to have a form for the front page
thumbnail is insane 💀
I always found it weird that goku put soo much hope onto goten and trunks without having spent much time with them. A lot of ppl like to link that as the same situation as gohan but its not he trained with gohan in the time chamber and knew gohan's power and was confident gohan could beat cell thats why they left the chamber early
Yeah I never understood that, he came back for literally one day and said hey 👋 goten we never talk but I trust the world to you
@@Bobby-lo3kj Goku can see the potential but never beyond that. He knew for a fact Gohan can beat Cell…If he was a fighter which Goku didn’t think about. He knew Gotenks could beat buu but didn’t think about how immature as fighters they are as well as Fat buu becoming Super Buu.
I like what Zeon and Aggro said about Super Saiyan 3. It's a power form used for ending a fight quickly, but that's not how Goku fights. Basically if you can't get the job done in 5 min as SSJ3, you aren't gonna get the job done at all as SSJ2
It is kinda crazy and in a way hilarious that Toriyama introduced new concepts such as SSJ3, Fusions, and Gohan getting another power boost for the Buu arc just for the main villain to be defeated by a concept introduced back in the Saiyan Saga with the Spirit Bomb
Ngl SSJ3 will always be one of my favourite forms. it’s design is great, it has a downside which allows goku to learn and improve from it and it’s also badass as fuck
3:19 I think this point specifically was where Carthu really cooked. I always assumed the energy emitted transferred into Buu's awakening cause that's literally all anyone uses as a counter to why Goku shouldn't have gone SSJ3 against Vegeta. The knowledge that only Babadi's minions can increase the resurrection is much worse in Goku's case cause he literally could've stopped all of this by just knocking Vegeta out. I feel like there's him trolling because he thinks Buu's a threat that can be neutralized easily when he is awake and then there's him actively helping the reawakening by not going all out. Honestly, I much prefer it being Gotenks exclusive because it leads to a couple less issues.
Thinking about it, Super Saiyan 3 reminds me of what Super Saiyan Rage is in my opinion. Both are new forms that have massive potential under the right circumstances but we’re never realized to their fullest potential because of the writing. Don’t get me wrong, Goku going SSJ3 against Buu will always be an iconic moment in Z. But SSJ3 was quickly sidelined after God and Blue were introduced with it only being used in a few cases. (Goku’s level 3 in Fighterz, stopping Trunks’ sword to power gauge, the Dragon Fist in Warth of the Dragon.)
There was a comment by toriyama where he says that when designing 3 he thought it was 2. Without that oversight and a bit of foreshadowing it woulda been fine. Also you asked why he didn’t master it, in GT it’s implied that he did when he literally says if I had my adult body this would be much easier. He also says it’s easier in other world.
What are your thoughts on beast gohan just being the ultimate form while in ssj2
I think because ssj3 was one taped by beerus and it has a drain stamina but if your body is dead it has infinite energy even the transformation is iconic fusion reborn and wrath of the dragon with the transition
I think the super manga never talked about him not being able to have inefficiencies in stamina drain from SSJ3
4:55 he did that to not hurt vegeta's feelings knowing that fighting in equal forms would help vegeta heal his pride
The fact that Goku’s hairline changes to Vegeta’s in ssj3 in the manga is crazy to me😂😂
Goku black masterd Ss3 seen in Heros sprouting eyebrows. It can be used as a counter Atk like when Trunks uses his grade 3 form just for counters. Maybe it's due to the fact that he didn't have his tail present. Since it's technically an Oozaru variant.
F to the people above me
Tbh they should have saved ss3 for gohan when he got his potential unlocked then connected to rage and hidden power like super sayian 2
I agree w/ the standpoint that the form is underwhelming wholeheartedly… HOWEVER, it does make sense that Goku was the one who found it because of the fact that in the other world, Goku was fighting day in and day out with no stamina drain, no energy drain just straight hooping for the love of the game. SSJ3 is an otherworldly transformation that is understandably difficult to translate back into the living world. The next problem with the form is that it’s hard to even train. Either his sparring partner would get packed up too quickly for him to really get a chance to use the form, or they are of divine energy. There’s no real in between. Majin Buu and maybe Ultimate Gohan are the only two that could possibly hang with Goku, but Ultimate Gohan isn’t limited by stamina so he pretty much wins by default, and majin buu would literally only be there to be a punching bag until Goku gets tired.
If I remember correctly in dragon ball gt after goku gets his tailed pulled out, he actually fixes the whole power consumption issue of ssj3.
I love the video and agree completely it's a waste of a form. I feel ss1 is the limit break and ss2 is from a place of angry or pain but ss3 has no purpose in the story. I always wonder why super kaioken wasn't used more than just for the filler underworld arc and honestly it would make more sense if goku wanted to kill buu it's a technique and it would make sense why he didn't fight for a while and would be consistent with his serious view on buu as a threat. That just my thoughts but alwaysfantastic video
Here is the funny thing. GT did Their transformations better
I Always found it interesting that DBZ was about "MY ULTIMATE FORM" everyone said its my ultimate form this ultimate form that. And saiyans are like the only mutants trying to get better forms
I always thought that it was the narrative to push to that peak where you are whole in body and spirit
SSJ4 Did that fuck in GT Goku getting his tail and mastering his saiyan side gave him SSj3 without any stamina drain he was missing the control he got as a saiyan something he lost for so long due to the negativity it brought. They didnt do it perfectly but the motive and narrative was there
SSJ4 was just an evolution and the perfect form rather than another super saiyan form. And here is something funny. In GT, Z, Super when a saiyan is transformed if they get beaten and knocked out they get knocked out of the form. SSJ4 is the only transformation where its impossible to get knocked out of the form. on top of that training in SSJ4 Actually increases your base at the same time where as the other forms just improve the form
My problem with SSJ3 is just that it feels like a step backwards from the lessons learned when mastering Super Saiyan. Goku knew there was a form that surpassed Super Saiyan but decided not to use it cause of the handicaps, choosing to instead to master the normal Super Saiyan to the point it doesn’t drain any energy from him.
Edit: I’ll also add I feel the only thing SSJ3 adds in the original story is the Vegeta number one scene. To me I don’t know how that scene would’ve worked without SSJ3 as it shows Vegeta that no matter how hard he pushes himself Goku will always find a way to go further which causes him to finally respect Goku. Without SSJ3 I don’t know how that scene would play out
Except Grade 4 didn't beat Cell. Stamina is useless if you don't have the power to keep up. Grade 4 was mainly about retaining agility.
In the afterlife where energy drain is mitigated, SSJ3 is a reasonable continuation.
if goku ever mastered super saiyan 3 and made its energy drain near negligible or completely nonexistent and amped it by mixing it with kaoken it would be a monster i mean now a days it would be seen as nothing because the god forms but it sounds like it could nearly compare to super saiyan 4
He had super saiyan 3, but it was unstable transformation. That's what he was trying to explain to everyone he had the power. Yes, but it wasn't something he could easily tap into or control and he knew it would run out his time he had for his day on earth, everybody misses that detail though.
There's an ENTIRE fan manga dedicated to Vegito literally being called Ultra Vegito. Regardless of what you think about it, that should speak towards SSJ3 being less popular, as that shit is hella blown up now.
I think a cool story for a SSJ3 Vegeta would be if Vegeta still forces Goku into the fight and during this fight, Vegtas new Majin power unlocks SSJ3 catches Goku off guard, and loses to Vegeta legitimately Vegeta tries SSJ3 against Buu It still doesn’t work and he does final explosion as a last-ditch effort.
BSOLZ cameo got me dying😂😂
He Mastered it in GT
I know this is off topic, but does anyone interpret Beast Gohan as a SSJ version of Potential Unleashed or is that just me?
The SSJ3 problem is because its hard to animate.... thats why we had the god forms, way easier to animate cause all you had to do is change the hair colour and the aura...
Ssj3 is a BAD, but the only person(s) that make sense to have that form…..would be gotenks
Hear me out. Goku wanted Goten and Trunks to be the next defenders of earth, right? Imagine instead of Goku, Gotenks is the one who unveils ssj3. That’s hypebeast for the simple fact that the tots unlocked a new ssj form, which furthers Goku’s “finding a successor” agenda. BUT due to their inexperience as fighters and just for being tots, they don’t master it.
Ssj3 actually fits a character like Gotenks, NOT Son Goku
Ohhhh, so thats why they beat the shi outta Videl
if i’m not mistaken SS3 is a “Other World” exclusive form. when Goku was dead he had unlimited ki, so stamina and ki drain wasn’t a problem over there. He didn’t account for it to drain him so quickly while on earth. Not sure if that’s true or holds much water but i believe i read it somewhere.
I doubt this is an "otherworld exclusive" thing. Besides the fact that its entirely unheard of despite how common transformations are in this universe, I feel like if Goku just had higher stamina then he would get this form regardless. We have no idea if ki can translate to a single aspect or it HAS to be everything at once, but hypothetically he could just start small, increase his stamina, and get the transformation then. After thats said and done, he can make it bigger and better
Love the video. Vegeta using ssj3 makes no sense either...
Cell literally tells trunks that Vegeta could've done the same thing but he wasn't stupid enough to think grade 3 would work on any1 hence why Vegeta fought cell in grade 2.
Personally I think he may have went grade 3 while charging the final flash. But it's never stated either way. It would make sense considering he challenged cell to stand there and take the attack and not dodge it before charging it
Sage are you ok are you sick because you're not streaming can you do a league stream
Super saiyan 3 is one of my favorites based on cool factor ngl, it it’s defense Goku can’t “master” Super Saiyan 3, because it’s not natural. Goku learned it when he was dead and he didn’t have a physical body. Goku only used super saiyan 3 as MAX power. Only time he’s used 3 is when he’s absolutely needed to… but then that just raises the question of why it was created in the first place so I guess he’s right wow. To make it better, having gotenks actually be effective with it but that means he’d have to be useful fr
I might be overlooking something but Goku doesnt use ssj3 a lot in the buu saga and im pretty sure thats because its an inefficient transformation. he only uses it when ssj2 cant do the job or when they are literaly gonna DIE if not used. Plus if goku had a ssj3 transformation that didnt consume energy then he might have beat kid buu at the end of the arc and then i have to bring up sages arrgument he uses a lot...."what are you sacrificing to have these changes?"
My issue with SSJ3 is that it dismisses the whole mastery element that was the build up to SSJ2. SSJ2 had a whole saga dedicated to Goku and Vegeta both trying to figure out how to master Super Saiyan and go beyond. SSJ3 just feels like a situational move like Kaioken. Good for a quick powerup but bad for a longer fight. It doesn't represent any kind of greater mastery or understanding of the Super Saiyan form. It's just a temporary raw power increase.
Really in hindsight, ssj3 is suppress down to the fact that the animators hate drawing the hair
It’s a missed opportunity in dragon ball super for goten and trunks to master the potiential of super saiyan 3 😔
It's funny as fuck how in the future trunks arc in the manga, Trunks masters SSJ2 to the point it's about as strong as SSJ3 lol making SSJ3 look even more stupid
Yo Sage My Boi You Should React To What If Goku Used Super Saiyan 3 Against Majin Vegeta By Carthu's Dojo Next Please Sage?!
Vegeta having ssj3 wouldn’t have made sense.
Ssj3 if it was gotenks exclusive transformation would've made it slighty better and followed by goku who trains to make it better. Because that form has the same issues of grade 3 like whaaaat?
Is this a reup load 😂 felt like I seen this already
He watched it on stream yeah
I agree that ssj3 is not a good form overall, but the regression argument not so much. Wouldn't there be a point where the raw boost in power overshadows the drawback of energy use?
Ss3 is my favorite form besides ss2 gohan but it might just be the kid in me
SSJ3 gets worse when you remember that he unlocked it offscreen while dead. You know what else Goku learned while dead that has nasty side effects as well that are arguably worse? Kaioken. Yes it’s a technique, but he learned all about it even with higher tiers while dead. So he knew the risks and it limitations even before he was revived. So even after he pushed himself using it he later resolved to continue to use it at higher levels of intensity but with greater tolerance to maintain. He manages to reach up to 20x in Namek and not implode due too much energy build up. Why? Because Goku saw the flaws and sought to overcome them and make it work for him better. However you are going to say that’s a technique it does not count. Okay fair enough nitpicker, how about this this example. Super Saiyan Blue. It was introduced out of nowhere, unlocked offscree, and has a stamina draining effect upon each start up. Huh sounds familiar right? However unlike SSJ3! Both Goku and Vegeta learn better versions of the for, that negate the issues it had when it was first introduced. Heck to the point Vegeta unlocked a new version of it with SSBE and Goku combining it with Kaioken to make SSBK. While SS3 was unlocked way earlier with Goku seeming doing freak all to properly master it to lessen the energy issues and just thought, “Yeah I’m good”, FOR SEVEN YEARS. More if you count DBS. There is literally no excuse why Goku could not have realized, (whether he was dead or alive), it’s flaws and learn or try to circumvent them. Face it SSJ3 just sucks.
What’s stopping them from making Gotenks being the only able to mastering SSJ3 going forward?
Ssj3 is hurt worst by super Cause Gotenks gets one shorted the whole show. If Gotenks had showed up as Ssj3 in super hero, and low key had it down to master it to no power drain would be a great way to put him
On there level. They deserve some love and I’m glad that Goten still has his Rizz from GT!
i mostly just like ss3's design i think it looks badass
He didn’t use SSJ3 vs Majin Vegeta cause he thought Vegeta couldn’t go SSJ2
That makes no sense.
@@shangothunder1055 explain?
@@shangothunder1055 I got time
@@BlaxkSun I mean what is there to really explain it just doesn’t make much sense. As soon as he witnessed Vegeta turn SSJ2 he should have busted out SSJ3. I believe Toriyama just didn’t come up with it at the time or at least a finalized design. If he did it’s just terrible writing.
@@shangothunder1055 Goku for intent and purposes didn’t know or think Vegeta had SSJ2. He thought he was going to just roll Vegeta, literally in the actual exchange in the manga, which for some reason people don’t read for the actual context, Goku said I’m going to finish this quick went SSJ2 then Vegeta responded in kind transformed to SSJ2 himself and told him it won’t be that easy. SSJ3 would’ve drained him out completely in a fast amount of time which everyone seems to forget about
Ssj3 should be a better version of grade 2 and three with more speed and agility but the stamina drain isn’t that bad but it’s still there and also maybe a precursor to super Saiyan four
*Top 3 best form in the whole show*
Dragon fist!
Issue with the theory is that you both worked so hard to prove yourselves right that you didn’t look hard enough for reasons why you might be wrong. Just from memory I’m sure Goku in the anime mentioned the stamina drain wasn’t an issue in other world why he didn’t think about the drawbacks of the form until he was back on earth, then by the time a new threat came along he was already far beyond 3 so yes, of course there’s no point “mastering” it..:Waste of time
What if now hear me out Vegeta unlocks super Saiyan 3 and his fight with buu. But he still has to resort to final atonement because of the energy drain
12:00 im pretty sure universally people thought he didnt use ssj3 against vegito because he didnt wanna hurt his pride and was stalling me personally it makes sense but i don't like it goku shouldve turned ssj3 and told him he'll never reach the form because of his mind set and the way he trains and one tap him vegeta will realize tht he's been going about his training and everything else wrong and does a whole 180 and well see his character progression throughout the ar so when he says at the end when goku is fighting buu " u better then me kakarot" it would hold more weight
Makes me wonder if SSJ3 is an imperfect form of SSJ4
They seem to drastically different to me. If anything I see it more as a Super Saiyan 2 Grade 2 or something like that.😂
I do agree ssj3 at this point is a bad form (worst? Nah bruh that’s rage for sure). But some things off the top of my head I can remember about it was that Goku says he didn’t have much time to master ssj3 before he was brought to earth. But going into the kid buu fight I think it’s more of an actual showing where he’s worn out by using the form but had to just to fight kid buu. If the story had him going ssj2 then it would be weird to see Vegeta stalling for time after while getting his princely ass beat having the same form. Aside from that, super truly made that form irrelevant with forms that also become kind of irrelevant. Also the thing about Vegeta having ssj3 we have in ego now haha
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What I hate about the "oh goku the one who mastered super saiyan made an inefficient form" argument is that GOKU DID NOT KNOW SINCE HE HAD INFINITE STAMINA IN HEAVEN. OML
That’s not true Vegeta was exhausted and lost so much energy he was knocked out from super saiyan against Kid Buu in the afterlife
That’s why Goku didn’t know it would drain so much energy and stamina because you drain it even more in living body
@@DgSezn No, the difference between goku being dead in the afterlife and Vegeta being dead was Vegeta was granted a pass, the same pass Goku got when he went to Earth for 1 day and we know that body has stamina while Goku being in the afterlife(Dead goku who cannot physically teleport to earth) has INFINITE STAMINA.
Goku even stated that SS3 is a form only to be used in the afterlife because on earth (even with his dead body pass) He gets exhausted while in the afterlife he doesn't, he doesn't even feel the effects and says so himself when he regained his life.
@@Jeff-fo3ck Goku has been shown to to use too much energy in the afterlife that’s the whole reason he had to run on it instead of flying and why he used the nimbus instead of flying
He never said ss3 never put strain on his body or that he didn’t know about the energy drain cause he said having a living body uses up even more energy
The after life still has the same rules on ki if you use too much you will still run out of it otherwise the Kaio-Ken would be able to stack Infinitely
I personally think when it comes to utility, ssg is by far the best transformation in db. It has healing properties, carries a technique tht can trap enemies behind god ki, has no sorts of energy drain issues like ssb or ss3 nd is more efficient n general nd I stand on tht🤷🏾♂️. N fact I think ssb is like ss grade 2 nd tht goku and vegeta aren’t utilizing ssg properly
Hmm well he transform in ssj3 instantly in super, not in buu saga. SSj3 could be master if I'm thinking about it, he could have used that form to end the fight if he going to use that off immediately, or even surprise buu with it.
Goku fighting kid buu and getting ssj3 and winning from there would have been much more better for the transformation,the moment itself is only legendary rest it has only taken Ls
I always thought of 3 as super sayian’s Kaioken form. A short burst of power with quick drawbacks.
Honestly the biggest problem is that it didn’t get the fights to back it up.
But neither did 2 or 4 but no one is ready for that discussion.
You can maybe say that for 2, but not for 4. I have no problem with GT. I think it's aight, but SSJ4 definitely had the fights to back it up
2 had the cell fight and narratively it was great. ssj4 has a ton of fights backing it up what are you talking about?
@@FarCryPrimalDefender nah 4 debuted and 2 episodes later needed a power up for the same fight. No other form reaches that level of washed so fast. 4 doesn’t have any wins under it that weren’t complete stomps.
Ssj2 Gohan was able to kill all the Cell Jr’s, brutally embarrass and Kill Cell, Kill Bojack, Trunks used it to kill Dabura in his timeline and Vegeta used it to kill Fat Buu despite regenerating again. Trunks even swapped between it and his buff form back and forth to keep up Blue Vegeta and it’s used a lot in Super.
@@Graymanlegend so SSJ2 just has no wins periods
Hey, ssj3 still cold
Yoo Sage you gotta react to dragon ball deliverance bro it’s fire you’d like it 🔥
ONE issue with SSJ3 is there was ONLY SSJ3.
Ssj3 still hype af
It’s ok…
i LOVE ssj3 but i can def see why you wouldn't like it
1. SSJ2 Does have energy drain, Toriyama himself said so in interviews.
2. Why would Goku in the middle of super focus on mastering SSJ3 when he has other forms to master like Ultra Instinct and Super Saiyan Blue
3. The energy drain is there in SSJ3 because Goku can't handle this amount of energy, we know this because the more energy you have the harder it is to control
4. Goku using SSJ3 on Vegeta doesn't make sense because of the energy drain he wouldn't have enough energy to stall Majin Buu if he did use it on Majin Vegeta.
5. Goku not finishing Fat Buu with SSJ3 is Goku's fault not the form's fault, It isn't the first time Goku lied and it isn't the last. Goku is taking the threat of Buu very seriously, he is looking out for the future of the world, not just the present moment, it is also evident with Goku taking the responsibility of Buu when Gohan and Gotenks failed
6. SSJ3 is not like Grade 2 and Grade 3, those forms use the energy to make the muscles grow larger giving more physical power, SSJ3 simply draws your energy from deep within up to the very limit, the issue is Goku can't control all that energy which is why it leaks.
Why would goku need to stall majin buu if he just prevents his revival via knocking out vegeta? Its energy from goku taking damage from vegeta which gives him the energy, so goku if takes out vegeta no majin buu revival.
Also what interview did Tori say ssj 2 has energy drain
@@proud05645here's the text.
Goku endlessly keeps getting stronger, with Super Saiyan 3 in the manga and Super Saiyan 4 in the anime; does Super Saiyan keep getting limitlessly stronger too? Might we eventually see things such as a Super Saiyan 5…?! Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more.
@@proud05645 Majin buu was still going to get revived due to his tank being half full and Gohan blasting him with all he had, supreme Kai even says that they should have fought him at half power from the start. Without Goku at SSJ3 Buu would slaughter everyone and Goku wouldn't have time to teach the Kids the dance much less collect the dragon balls.
your number 2 counterpoint is shit. There were 5 years between Maajin Buu Saga and Battle of Gods - we even see Goku training on King Kai's planet so we cant use a "wasnt training" excuse. What did he gain?
The point of ss3 is to be bad or at least not the answer
Mastered ssj3 should NOT have been a problem, god ki training should have negated the ssj3 power problem. god ki training explicitly, is training in making sure ki dose NOT LEAK FROM YOUR BODY . so why the hell is ssj3 not mastered yet!!!
Super Saiyan just looks COOL, but it's SO DUMB
'SSJ3 is regression for Goku because Grade 4'
Except Grade 4 didn't beat Cell, stamina is useless if you dont have the raw stats to keep up. Grade 4 was created to maintain agility in battle, stamina preservation was a side effect, one Goku did acknowledge but it wasn't the main reason.
So Grade 4 didn't beat Cell, a powered up version of Super Saiyan that maintains and boosts agility as well as strength did. That would be Goku's main takeaway.
Under the pretense of the afterlife and its energy consumption mitigation, Goku creating SSJ3, a powered up form of Super Saiyan that retains and boosts agility as well as other stats seems reasonable.
I have multiple other issues with Carthu's points, but I'll ask this, what proof do we have that Goku *hasn't* mastered SSJ3? Do we have any statements from Goku himself?
'Goku has a knack for stamina preservation'
I mean he blatantly says he doesn't do that in the Moro arc. Grade 4 was really the only time.