Worst part was Galadriel being so abrasive towards the Numenorians. Like, they saved your life and you need them to provide you with a ship, why the hell are you antagonizing them and saying that they should be helping you as gratitude for the island being a gift from the Elves to them? She’s supposed to be one of the wisest creatures in existence. Yet she doesn’t understand basic diplomacy? “Thank you for saving me, you guys are awesome, if you could please provide me with a small ship to return home I would be forever in your debt”. Boom, problem solved, you have your ship and can leave right away. Best part of the episode was probably Elendil, from his appearance to his demeanor, he felt like a classic and proper Lord of the Rings character. Also, Numenor looked cool.
Best part for me is the hobbits. Still enjoy this storyline the most, and that is the only storyline that feels at least somewhat Tolkien-ish. Worst part is Galadriel. I don't know who this character is, but it's not Galadriel. And that horse scene...oh brother, that was cringe..no disrespect to the actress though. She does a good job with what is given to her. Loved her in Saint Maud
best: seeing Numenor, worst: the hobbits laughing about how one of their friends was killed by bee's, aren't the hobbits meant to be too innocent for morbid humour?
Worst: The hobbits singing their "nobody goes off trail" song a million times on loop. Felt insane that they'd just sing that. It's not even a song. Even marching in the military songs are more rhythmic and imaginative than that. Best: the design and looks of Numenor Edit: lol after watching, he also hated the Hobbit song
I don't really like the idea of Halbrand being Sauron. I would love it if he was actually the Witch King, and that in his quest for redemption of his people, he is presented with a ring of power, and without him knowing is slowly corrupted by it. Doomed to serve the evil his ancestors worshipped.
@@ninj-as7710 yeah, but the rings that turned the men into wraiths haven't been made yet at this point, so the Witch King (or Angmar) can't really exist yet. Edit: Did a quick Google search, and if the info I found is correct, we should probably be somewhere around 500 to 800 years away from the first appearance of the Nazgul as a whole at this point in the show
I think he will become the witch king, hope so since there is potential for greatness in this story, him being sauron is just bad bad bad, and breaks the explict text description of galadriel noticing sauron's disguise from the start.
When I went to Water Survival training with the military their motto was "The Ocean makes cowards of us all" I always really liked that cause even as a seasoned diver and spending half my life on the water. The unknown and unpredictability has always been creepy
But there is a difference in saying a phenomenon/situation has a certain psychological effect on us, and claiming a phenomenon is "always right". Because in the first example it causes a psychological reaction in us, in the second it is understood as an entity with actual agency like a god. And this is just wrong for Numenor, because they worshipp Eru Illuvatar, and secondly the sea if the realm of the Valar Ulmo, so has no agency on it´s own. So talking about the sea as it was an entity, is plain wrong for the Numenoreans.
@@anonymussicarius8899 I wasn't defending the dumb saying they came up with. More pointing out if they felt compelled to go with a mantra, they could've came up with a more thought provoking and emotion stirring one than what they did lol
@@TylerSere I am sorry if my comment made the impression that I was "accusing" you of defending the saying. My intention was to explain to a future reader of your comment why that mantra and the show´s sying were not equivalent. Apologies again if you felt attacked.
Ooh! If we're talking about better mottos than Numenor's, then what strikes me the most is "Serve order, and order will serve you." This line came in my elementary school because it's to tell that discipline is key to our studies and all the graces will come back ten times more. But, in my own dark interpretation, the definition of "order" can also be applied outside schools. Put it in a corrupt company and it's a simple way of saying, "Trust in our illegal methods. We're pro in this, and you'll soon get your payment." Whatever and wherever this motto will be used, it just makes a person question the laws and standards in their community. It’s a daunting thought, but the motto doesn’t restrain one to find their own meaning of balance. Unlike that straightforward, cringey line. “The sea is always right.” If I were to say it with confidence, the word "right" will just let my voice prolong the syllable like "Raiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigggggggggghhhhhht..." It's already hinting the internal conflict of the character, giving that question, "Are you sure I'm doing the right thing?" Not sure if that motto was intentional, but it left me slapping my forehead and sighing louder than a flying airplane. Those people should’ve shouted that motto of yours @TylerSere or maybe something poetic just like what every Tolkien fan expected.
@@ma.leilaalexandrajandayan5898 It's hilarious that this is a top rate response to such a scenario; considering the media we consume is largely based around murder, mercantalism, and general warfare between the opposing aspects of our focus characters, but we still have to speak in such delicate and unassuming terms, creator forbid we cross a boundary spawned from nothing but viscera
I’m really struggling with the way the elves are being depicted. They just feel like humans with pointy ears who are trying too hard to sound poetic. Ironically, I believe the pointed ears trope doesn’t even come from Tolkien, so in his mind at least there was something else about them that physically distinguished them from man. But, this issue with the elves reminds me of why I struggled to get into reading Terry Brooks back in the day. I even remember saying to my wife after reading one of his books that the elves just felt like humans with extended life spans. Unfortunately I think Rings of Power has the same problem. I don’t think they really understand what Tolkien was saying about the elves and how Ilúvatar created them different from men.
I agree. I think my biggest problem is that I can't tell which elves are older or more experienced, which I always felt was an important element of elven culture in Tolkien's Works. The difference in depiction between Celebrimbor and Galadriel makes this most apparent, since despite their closeness in age, one looks and acts like a wise elder and one acts like a young, hot-headed human. Elrond will eventually be Galadriel's son-in -law and yet they interact with each other as total equals while he shows clear reverence for Celebrimbor.
Loved how Byzantine looking Numenor was, granted you can't go wrong with having Johm Howe back as an art director. I'm still iffy about Galadriel's characterization even as a younger elf. She's by no means weak willed, but I have a hard time with her being impetuous.
Here’s the thing that irks me with the “Galadriel is younger” argument. Sure, she is youngER than in LOTR, but she is not YOUNG!! Tolkien’s elves become adults at around 100 years old. The show’s own lore has established that Galadriel has lived through centuries. It’s like saying that it’s okay for a 50 years old woman to act like a spoiled brat because she isn’t 96 years old yet…
Galadriel is one of the few we have quite exact dates for too. She is something like 5000 years old at the end of the second age (and we know this doesn't change because she is shown as being alive during the years of the trees in the show), and only 8000/8500 by the events of LOTR.
@@anthonyschroeder521 So she should have 2 thousand years or so at the start of the 2nd age, but with the time compression we cant be sure if its early or late 2nd age at the moment. Anyhow, by the lore, she can have no less than 2 thousand and no more than 5 thousand, old enough to act very wise and calm, not like a 18 year old impulsive teenager.
You hit it on the head with the poetry aspect. The feeling I've had is that the language of the writing is just severely lacking in that tolkien-esque style that imo is so foundational to immersing you into the world. It was you or daniel who also mentioned the 'marvelization' in the dialogue at times, and it's the same feeling. The poetic old-school language of the dialogue in tolkien's works is just so unique by today's standards and it really suffers when it deviates from that.
So they ask, why were the elves turned away? Galadrial says, I think we're about to find out... that never happens. Neither of them ask questions about that. Without the lore I wouldn't know why they hated elves. And yet with the lore I know there was soo much build up to this moment that is absent. Also, I've gotten weird romantic vibes first with elrond and then with helbrand. She is elronds mother in law and she was one of the few not fooled by sauron
She’s a female protagonist, so obviously she has to be romantically involved with or interested in literally every protagonist-adjacent male she comes across, don’t you know? /s
I largely agree with the sentiment of the writing being shallow. The "the sea is always right" thing was really cringey. The only dialogue that has really stood out to me so far was the conversation between Durin and Elrond about the difference between 20 years for an elf and 20 years for a dwarf. Every other piece of dialogue has been mediocre at best. If it weren't for the visuals I would probably have lost interest after the first episode. I like the acting for the most part, but I don't think the writing gives the actors much to work with. Galadriel is one of the worst examples of this. I think the actress is doing well, but they've given her a really predictable character arc and a character that starts off really immature, which is incredibly odd for an elf. The fact that they have so many concurrent plotlines is not doing the series any favors. While I imagine the Stranger will matter at some point, the Harfoots feel like they are just there because the showrunners wanted hobbits. This episode I was actually annoyed that it cut to the Harfoots. I wanted to see more of Numenor and have some scenes with Elrond, who's the only character I've started to actually care about. The Rings of Power's contrast with House of the Dragon is really stark. House of the Dragon made me care deeply about all of the main characters within just two hours. Rings of Power has made me somewhat care about one character in three hours. The writing is far more subtle and conveys the themes of the show's world incredibly well. The writing mixes with the visuals to create the world of House of the Dragon, whereas Rings of Power has to rely solely on spectacle to create its world. It looks like Tolkien. But it doesn't feel like Tolkien.
Agreed. Especially since the new episodes air close to each other and I watch first the RoP and then the HotD, it’s such a contrast. The character work in HotD is good - people are distinct and recognizable from episode to episode. They have obvious flaws and I still care about them. Several conflicts are clearly set up, but the individual story beats are still surprising. Everything just … works. As opposed to RoP where almost everything in the script is broken.
The problem with the 20 year discussion is though: Elrond is the twin brother of Elros, so he his a descendant of the mortal Beren and the elf Luthien. When the First Age ended, the Valar gave Elros and Elrond a choice which fate they wanted, that of mortal men, or of elves. Elros chose the gift of mortality, while Elrond chose immortality. Amazon is aware of this, for they bring this up in the Hall of Wisdom painting. So of all the elves, Elrond should be the one who would have absolutley no problem understanding the difference in time importance! Would it have been any other elve, or a Durin - Elrond - Celembrimbor discussion on this topic with Elrond mediating, I would have accepted it, but Elrond knows this and does not need an explanation!
I think this episode on particular completely de-mystifies Galadriel, and not in a good way. She’s one of the Noldor who saw the Two Trees of Valinor: this is what gives her a sort of ethereal aura, and causes her eyes to be particularly bright and piercing. But here it’s like “oh she can just cover her ears and no one will recognise her as any different from a human!” That’s not how this works. And as for her constantly threatening everyone, that got on my nerves too. She seems more like a knock-off Haleth than the Galadriel who spent much of her life in Doriath with Melian.
Their is a really "modern" touch on the different races. Elves are just immortal people with long ear and a love for tree. Dwarves are just little and tough, with funny accent, a love for alcohol and stone, hobbits are simple people, etc. I don't see any of the depth I can see in Tolkien writing. And I think it's because they don't care. It's not for Tolkien fans, it's to make money out of Peter Jackson's LotR fans. I'm really disappointed with it. And I feel that with the lot of idiots criticizing the show for nothing it's impossible to talk about it
Thanks for mentioning this, its a small annoyance from my part, but would it be that hard for them to give this actress more bright and shining eyes? Like Cate had in the movies, its one quality that is really mentioned in Tolkien about the Noldor who saw the light of the trees, specially Galadriel, and it would help to make her feel otherwordly instead of common elf. Some shots I cant even see clearly the color of her eyes, give that girl some contact lenses Amazon, it aint that hard! lol
I think an element of why she feels different from what people expect could be due to where those details are from. They only have LotR for her. They needed a character to be the focal point and stories and characters need arcs. Her arc is going to be growing into her LotR version over the 5 seasons (Tolkien Estate’s only non-negotiable was that the showrunners could not do anything that would alter the story of the 4 main books). I don’t think we have as much of her history in LotR? Add in that, for details from the Silmarillion, the Silmarillion, while brilliantly collected by Christopher, is still a collection of not always the most recent works or ideas Tolkien had, but at least the latest that was fully written enough and didn’t contradict other pieces of it or LotR. @Pixachuu Personally, I’d advise in being mindful of using “they don’t care”..after 3 eps especially. We don’t know what went on in the writers room, how they worked on these details. And with what details we have seen them put in the story, what references they make, there are things that very much do show care. From a certain perspective, one could also argue things like Jackson and Phillipa not caring when it came to Faramir, but it was more they knew but felt the change better fit the story they were telling. This is a difficult thing with shows, when we have to judge episode by episode though.
* SPOT ON: This series has NO poetry (in the deepest sense of the word); the Fellowship of the Rings begins with an elvish chant and a hook that instantly captures Tolkien's entire ethos of mortal men and the passing of the world: "Much that once was is now lost." ....I'm beginning to think that the great superficial visuals of the Rings of Power is just to compensate for what it utterly lacks: Tolkien's soul. How ironic that this series focuses on Numenor!
The problem with the elves is that they look too modern. Imagine if they looked more like the ones in the LOTR trilogy, with their long hair and pristine clothes - the whole sequence would appear more intimidating because we re getting the contrast of this elevated beings being reduced to slaves covered in mud and filth. Instead they all have conveniently short haircuts, act pretty much the same and look pretty indistinguishable from common men
The hair styles don't bother me as much as the ages. Why are they casting middle aged men to play Gil Galad, Celebrimbor and the Silvan Elf commander when Galadriel looks younger than them but is older than all of them? I agree that they are too human in general.
The only thing that distinguishes Tolkien's elves from humans was their uncommon height and beauty. Otherwise, they looked a lot like men. Tolkien says nothing about their ears.. Correct me if I'm wrong. Also, Elves being held by orslcs is not so out of order. Orcs are corrupted elves.
@@politereminder6284 Tolkien also at least implict mentions that elves had a different "aura" from men, i dont remember exactly the quotes, but when you read his works, you get a feeling they would be easily spotted, specially the high elves of valinor, who dwell in the light of the trees, they were as you said, taller, more beautiful and had extreme piercing and bright eyes. Probably the Avari and Nandor elves could be more hard to spot, but Galadriel should really be one of a kind, the showrunners should have done something to really make feel her "shine" among the others, everyone that is not from Valinor should be in awe of her the moment they saw her, at least thats the impression I get reading the text. In this aspect, PJ nailed the elves, specially Galadriel.
Elves seem to suffer from the same power issues as Ninjas, super badass one on one, but get em in a group and they just become so weak. Like the contrast of super acrobatics followed by fumbling around and getting bodied by a lone warg is kinda weird and dumb. Like it just was so distracting to me, least favorite part so far. Favorite part was that Numenor looked awesome, like, looks so cool to live in
I just thought of one way to fix the brutality of the Harfoots (there are definitely many more ways): 1. The Harfoots have animals to pull the wagons. 2. During an accident, all the animals run off and Nori's father breaks his foot. 3. They have to carry the wagons themselves, in addition to carrying Nori's father, which makes them all slow and vulnerable. 4. They get hunted by wolves. Nori's father has to convince the others to leave him behind because of his broken foot, but many of the others refuses, because "nobody gets left behind". 5. The wolves closes around those who stayed, but suddenly retreats. The wizard shows up and has done some magic shit. Then he's able to bring back those animals who ran off as well, and he's welcomed to the group.
Any of these would be great. It absolutely blew me away that they’re literally chanting, “Nobody walks alone” but also, we will leave you behind the moment you are inconvenient. One of them is injured and the consensus of the entire group is, “Sucks to suck, guess you and your family will just die.” It makes no sense in the context of their culture. They’ve only been seen helping each other and being kind, all working together for this festival. If they wanted to make the Harfoots brutal they could have, but they also don’t. They just wanted a contrivance for the Stranger to be useful. And this won’t even endear the Stranger to the rest of the group, just the Brandyfoots. Because the rest of the group has decided that it’s okay for the Brandyfoots to die!
>1. The Harfoots have animals to pull the wagons. Yeah I was expecting them to have goats to show the scale difference. Missed opportunity and would have increased a sense of nature with them. Thor: Love and Thunder had big goats compared to people and could do it for a smaller budget.
@@Blueeyesthewarrior Basically, they're chanting "Never walk by yourself!" not "Always stick together!"-I actually kinda really like the way it challenges people to think about the different things that words can mean, and how words can seem at an initial glance to mean one thing, and yet could actually mean something else entirely no matter how expected or unexpected that might be. Like, we really shouldn't take it for granted, when certain words or phrases have taken on certain almost shorthand-esque connotations not necessarily quite so inherently implied from the outside just by the words themselves yet easily recognizable and familiar and a nearly-instantaneous given to those on the inside who have that common cultural context. Like when people who don't speak English as a first language ask "What's wrong with you?" instead of asking "What's wrong?" or "What's bothering you?"-but people who speak English as a first language are more likely to say "What's _wrong_ with you!?!" to imply disbelief or incredulity that someone did something which was really messed-up and difficult to believe that anyone would/could ever actually do[ or such]. As nice as poetic dialogue would be, I actually wonder if maybe the dialogue's lack of poetry is causing people to underestimate just how much intention and depth[ or just how layered the meaning which] the dialogue actually could or couldn't possibly still be written to have?? 🤔 I dunno. It's hard to say. But, who knows, maybe that's just me not being pessimistic enough or something.? Lolll Is it really such a bad thing for the series to show that, sometimes, things aren't always as they at first immediately appear to be? And, thus, to have a group of people that seem on the surface to _not_ be brutal yet are actually far more brutal than you might ever expect them to be just coming into them from the outside totally unfamiliar with what is and isn't culturally normalized for them?
At this point Galadriel is thousands of years old, has been enmeshed in the workings of the noble elven houses and studied at the side of the Maiar Melian. Yet she treats the court of Numenor like a surly teenager would talk to their parents.
I would love for Halbrand to turn out to be one of the Nazgul. It would give the series a chance to show why humans fall for the allure of quick and easy power out of the right reasons. Halbrand wants the power to save his people, to establish a real realm and to show the other civilisations of the second age that the men of the southlands can govern themselves. I think it would be a good show of irony if the device by which he seeks this would be a ring of power, given of course directly or indirectly, by the very being he wants to distance his folk from.
"The sea is always right" was just there so it could be quoted again later as defence. Which felt lame and made me imagine a writer's meeting working out his justification to the queen out and how to foreshadow it. Plus Harfoots - as you mention, " Nobody walks alone!" Then later remembers those they left behind in a loose copy of Bilbo's birthday speech ( I was really hoping they wouldn't copy the 'Proudfeet!" moment, so was disappointed when they did ). It gets annoying when shows copy something we've heard before. Since SW and "I've a bad feeling about this..." it's becoming a trend. They say it's a "homage" or an Easter egg, but it just comes across as amateur "fan fiction" writing, which they did in the first episode when Galadrieal says the "air smells colder this way" which is a copy of Gandalf in the mines of Moria "..the air doesn't smell so fowl". Eye rolling moments. Númenor looked like the VFX team were being told "More buildings!" every time they showed their work to the director - very OTT and felt unfeasible The slow-mo of Galadreial happy on her horse was very weird and out of place compared to her personality the whole time prior. Poor editing and too long. Felt like it was out of context like we missed a scene where she would have given some background there to make us like her more. Not having that, just makes her look more self centred.
I love how every time Tim criticizes writing he gives an example of how it could have been better instead of just whinging about it like so many others on the internet. Keep up the good work
Once again, you pretty much hit my major points. I think this might be falling into the same issue as WoT or late GoT ran into, where they are given 'x' episodes and now write a story for them, rather than taking a story and deciding how many episodes are needed to tell it. Odd pacing and strange setups. Like, I cannot legitimately tell if we're looking at a multi-season epic with Sauron's defeat only coming after several story arcs, or if we're looking at a single season that will finish off with Isildur's fall.
Nah. The Jackson's movies and lots of other shows achieving much more in less time is proof enough this absolutely isn't the issue. Good writer know the boundaries they're given and work within them without them being restraining by it. We're half way season 1 of RoP now, and still in exposition, still nothing has happened, and we're constantly all over the place... And indeed...the writing is shallow, frankly, just downright awful, from dialogue to characters' attributes, to scenario (too many things just don't make sense, written for opportunity only...)
I think the Harfoots would have treated Nori's family more fairly, had she not brought the Stranger into their midst. Something that's always known and not really explored about the Hobbits is their tribalism and xenophobia; don't like strangers, no sir, nobody from outside the Shire. And Nori's father mentions putting his cart at the front, presumably to people can step in and help them when he falters. And the way the Harfoots survive is banding together and keeping hidden from strangers. So this combines into a situation where Nori brings a Very Dangerous Somebody into their midst, and suddenly they have to deal with him. I would suspect their fear is getting the better of them here, that they dislike the Stranger more than they want to take care of Nori and her family, but I may be reading depth into a shallow story.
I think that even if their cart had been up front none of the other Harfoots would have helped them with their cart, otherwise they wouldn’t have been worrying about it so much leading up to the migration. I think putting the cart at the front of the caravan would have only helped in that they would have had a bigger buffer to fall behind. Also, the Stranger was just laying in their cart apparently. He was actively making the cart harder to pull whilst they were struggling and nobody says ANYTHING. He doesn’t come out of the bushes and reveal that he’s been following them, no he’s been hindering their progress and nobody is mad about it. That is so weird and out of character considering how much the Harfoots fear strangers.
"Nobody goes off trail, nobody walks alone" ----> they *IMMEDIATELY* proceed to abandon someone to walk alone. I'm gonna be honest, the way it was cut, I thought they were making a point on purpose, to make us notice the hypocrisy of Harfoot society. I laughed out loud.
Ah, when the Harfoots started chanting I was really expecting for an amusing yet kind of terrifying song about the dangers of wandering off alone, but when it was just those two lines over and over... 😅 It felt kind of silly and boring, really. It could be kind of repetitive as marching songs often are since they're for marking the rythm and keep morale high, but who wants to repeat and listen to the same words over and over again. It's even worse that they're chanting it while literally leaving people behind, like, what... I would've loved if Otto's lines changed and the rest of the Harfoots replied with a "and nobody walks alone" to each of his verses. I am not a native English native speaker, so I don't think I can come up with something much better in a YT commentary, but something like: Otto: Nobody goes off-trail! Others: And nobody walks alone! Otto: We march to a better place. Others: And nobody walks alone! Otto: Beyond the trail there's constant threat Others: So nobody wolks alone! Yadda, yadda, yadda, you get my drift.
I doubt the writers intended "Nobody walks alone, nobody goes off trail" to end up as more of a reinforced threat than a show of solidarity between the families, but that is what we got. Nobody walks alone, nobody goes off trail, because if you do then you will be left for dead with only a single line in a book to be remembered by.
My prediction for Halbrand is that he’ll rise up to accept his role as King, unite the South Lands and then Sauron will end up offering him one of the 9 rings of the kings of men and he’ll fall to the darkness. It would serve as a good parallel to Aragorn who was able to resist the temptation of evil and show precisely what makes Aragorn different from the other kings of men who fell under Sauron’s control.
I found the brutality of the Harfoots kind of interesting personally. It's a strange innocent brutality of protecting the whole, getting to the next safe camp, even if it means cutting their losses. Then if the lost catch up all the better. Like with the book reading, sure a number could have been saved but they still keep them in their circle, in their hearts, in the absence. In some ways it makes me think on a... not more primitive, but earlier version of Bilbo returning to find his house being sold off. Not passed to his kin mind, just sold off. And then later he's Mad Baggins. Know him for his money, hopefully, but maybe don't get too attached. I'm not quite sure if I like it exactly, and I don't think it quite hit the right notes, but it is fascinating to think on.
I was initially taken aback by how cutthroat the Harfoots were, but then it dawned on me, that the series is trying to establish Hobbit society's tendency to actively discourage, shun and ostracise deviation from the norm. I read them as a sort of allegory for the type of small town/community that appears very idyllic and welcoming as long as you keep to the very narrow-minded and prescriptive rule set. Nori's mum was trying to keep her in her place by saying "do you think you're special?" Maybe the show is going for a worldly folk vs insular folk dichotomy. Because in Bronwyn's town, I got a similar vibe to the Harfoots where people were very narrow-minded and judging Bronwyn for associating with Arondir and not sharing their hostility to him like the rest of the town. Seems like a city people are kind but not nice (Galadriel and the Elves) and country people are nice but not kind (the Harfoots) sort of dichotomy 🤷🏾♀️
If you have to try that hard to make sense of it there's something off. I'm 100% sure Tolkien would never have written hobbits like that. Hobbits are country folk in the south of England really. They are all about the feeling of home, green meadows, logs on the fire and hearty feasts. An idealized view of the southern shires of England.
@@blow-by-blow-trumpet But, the glimpses of Hobbit society we get in 'The Hobbit' and 'Lord of the Rings' show the folks in Hobbiton as being very close-minded and looking down on characters like Bilbo and Frodo for going against the rules and wandering off to have adventures.
@@blow-by-blow-trumpet but how did the hobbits even get to that point? Societies and cultures are ever changing. There’s no way the hobbits in RoP could have exactly the same culture and mindset as the hobbits in lotr.
@@WannabeDancer72 That is true, but this just jars with me. The closed-mindedness you get from the books is exactly the same attitude you'd have witnessed in the English shires (and still do sometimes) yet there is evidence of our ancestors caring for their sick in remains over 40, 000 years old. It just doesn't ring true and doesn't feel like hobbits.
@@markbasin3053 True. But all civilized societies care for their sick. It's a necessity evidenced by the evolution of empathy. Evidence of re-setting of broken bones had been found in human fossils 40, 000 years old. It's a really bad choice on the part of the writers and rubs badly with me.
Overall, I also feel it's lacking depth, and that sense of heightened, mythic reality that is almost uniquely Tolkien. The Jackson films managed to capture that, but Rings of Power hasn't so far. I still don't really understand what they're trying to go for with Galadriel, but her walking into the Numenorean court in a sea-stained dress, her infamous hair a shambles with not a scrap of shame and declaring her whole status honestly felt peak out-of-touch Elven arrogance, and that really worked for me. For me, it's ok for her to lack tact at this point in history...she loses a political showdown with Celebrimbor, after all. I think the Harfoots having a social punishment system where transgressors have to walk in back tracks with what we know of the early "hobbits". Smeagol's people practiced exile as a form of punishment. This isn't that different, a little less strict even, and Nori had committed a transgression. Walking in back was the punishment for that, not because her father was wounded.
@@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl She wasn't one of the first, since her family was there for who knows how long before she was born. But I agree, all the Elves should feel Not Human and they don't. It's one of the stylistic choices the show has made that I most disagree with. Even if we're getting more of an Elven perspective, they could easily still have that presence when interacting with mortal characters. I will likely be disappointed about this the whole show. Arondir apologizing to the tree was the most Elvish thing any of them have done so far.
@@duyvtran1 True. And I'm all for showing us some of that Noldorin obsession and cracking the pop culture image of Elves as perfect, angelic Always Good beings....but I wish they still felt like Elves while doing it.
Saw the thumbnail and was immediately reminded of the Auralnauts hobbit video with the laser giants, senile Gandalf, and the dwarven rendition of Beat it.
I feel that having Halbrand be Sauron would be really strange, if that makes sense? Galadrial has been hunting Sauron for centuries and she apparently doesn’t notice that he’s literally standing right in front of her and talking to her. I think we just haven’t met him yet. He’s sitting somewhere in the shadows pulling the strings.
Actually that is the writers' intent, to force Galadriel to be humbled as "character development". That her quest for revenge blinded her to what was hiding under her nose.
@@chriss3276 Naw. They're trying to red-herring Halbrand/Sauron so that they can go "Psych!" and reveal someone else later. The old mystery box switcheroo.
Turns out I was wrong and Galadrial really is just a big dummy why didn’t recognize Sauron, the man that she has been hunting down for centuries standing right in front of her. And it gets even dumber. She doesn’t realize it because of some suspicious behavior of Halbrand, she realizes because the line of kings that SHE assumed he was from was actually broken. When he literally told her that he wasn’t the king and she insisted that he was because it was useful to her political goals. Wonderful. Love that for us.
@@Blueeyesthewarrior Yep. And the glorious part is that now Sauron is apparently just a white male incel who got rejected by a girlboss and so he rage quits and starts blowing shit up. xD
I liked the part where Galadriel didn’t get executed for threatening the life of the queen openly Edit: this was also pointed out to me at work. Why tf did Sauron put his mark on galadriels brother? Like everyone’s seen it by now right? Is everyone just stupid and or didn’t bother to just look at a map.
That was an... interesting choice. Then again, if the elves ever discovered Numenor had executed one of their war heroes, that would be bad. I imagine the Valar wouldn't approve either.
@@TheSuperRatt true but I’m having a hard time determining from her behavior there why anyone would want her. Seriously she was straight up a petulant child
And guarantee they get absolutely fucked up by the elves? Yeah I think it was more of a power move from Galadriel. She knew there wasn't shit they could do.
I am loving the series, but I do agree with you about THE DEPTH in relation to the "homage to the sea" and the Harfoots' simple chant. 😊😊 Thanks for the review!
I really like the "brutal" way of the Harfoots and it fits really well. Its the time before the Third Age. Hobbits had dark sides too, and I think that explores that a bit.
@@nathanmorgan3647 well, they did exist in the SA, but did not do anything noteworthy, like for example greeting Gandalf when arriving in Middle Earth. Funny enough, Cirdan is discribed as greeting the wizards when arriving at the Grey Havens, so the arrival of the Istari WAS noteworthy
The part that bothers me the most about this show is how over cinematic they are making it. Rather than connecting with the characters its a lot of dramatic and slow mo shots. Feels uncanny.
I agree that feels like something is mising. I'm enjoying, the show is gorgeous, the actors are good and compeling, but there's something that's not quite there. A feeling of things still being set up and introduced in a way that I don't feel that I know what's most of the character deals and when I do, like Galadriel, I feel like it's a little too basic. I'm having fun and never bored watching it, but if someone askes me "What's this show about?" I don't know if I have a satisfying answer. I really liked the look of Numenor and all the Orc camp stuff was fun, but I don't enjoy the Harfoots
I agree with you idea of Halbrand being a sort of inverse Aragorn and ultimately failing, but I really like another theory I saw that builds on that where he fails by taking one of the rings and becoming one of the nine ringwraiths. If he is indeed a king, that checks out. I’m sure there’s lore I don’t know about who the wraiths are, but it’s cool with me if that’s changed for the adaptation. I think it would make for a great tragic storyline - especially if they take their time and make him super likeable for multiple seasons only to twist the knife and have him fall later in the show.
I really appreciate the depth of the commentary, you definitely know Tolkien’s works in and out. But also because of that, I think it’s hard to understand how confusing and contrived a lot of the series feels for a viewer that mainly knows the main trilogy of books, and not really by heart either. If they spent so much money on the series, I wish they spent more time on developing these undertones, so we can all better appreciate it.
I doubt Halbran will end up being Sauron, since it would make no sense for him to be in the middle of the sea when he meets Galadriel. Also, I doubt Galadriel would not sense his presence, or even start catching feels with Sauron. I feel like a more likely explanation for his dark moments and overall presence is that he's going to become the Witch King, but who knows.
You forget (or did not know) Sauron's plan was to ensnare the Elves and use their innate power for his purposes. Being a Maia he could walk unseen and spy on the Elves. Learning that Galadriel was so powerful, she would be a prime target for his seduction (not that kind, I mean tricking her to his service). This show intends to use it as a means of humbling Galadriel for character development, that so blinded by a quest for revenge, she did not see what was hiding right in front of her. So he was in the ocean "stalking her". Plus you have to remember this show's Galadriel is nothing like Tolkien's. Tolkien's Galadriel was already married and had an adult child by this time point so while she would have sensed Sauron, Amazon Galadriel wouldn't.
Numenor was honestly a huge let down for me. There are still morsels of decency and even greatness in the show, and the pacing seems more confident this time around, but… man, I am REALLY disliking a lot of the decisions here. Even long since having divorced myself from this being an ‘adaptation’, and trying to see it as it’s own thing, Galadriel is a horrible primary protagonist and there aren’t enough good supporting characters to make me say, “This is worth it.” We’ll see next week..
I liked Numenor a lot, yes it was not as good as it could have been, but one of the best parts so far. I also have distanced myself from expecting faithfulness to the source material, I interpret this as "loosely based on Tolkien's writing", and it has made the show more enjoyable. Agreed that Galadriel has been an awful protagonist and her adaptation has been abysmal, I dont anyone is liking her, neither casuals nor hardcore fans. So far, above average show, great visuals and soundtrack, subpar writing.
@@aesir1ases64 Fair enough. When it comes to Numenor, I suppose it’s always been one of my favorite aspects of the previous ages prior to Lord of the Rings, and despite how little actual focus it’s given in The Silmarillion and elsewhere, I always felt as though it easily leant itself to a live action adaptation. Moreso than other elements in the second age, and especially moreso than events in the first age. I had… far too high hopes, I suppose. In another show, called something else, I probably wouldn’t have minded in the least. We definitely agree on the soundtrack and visuals! Both are phenomenal! The writing, however, leaves much to be desired… particularly with its leads… ugh. Watching this show really does make me feel like “a tale of two cities” internally. I love parts, hate others, and when they cancel out, I’m largely left with indifference.
I personally hate the Harfoots more than anything in this show. I'm Irish so I generally just hate Irish accents in television. But these have to be some of the worst. An entire group of people, none of whom are Irish, all doing terrible Irish accents just hurt my soul to the point that I just slipped all their scenes so it didn't completely ruin the entire show for me.
Got to say, you are reading (npi) way more into the show than is actually there, based on your knowledge of the source material. For example, describing Numinor as at the height of its power. It's not in the show- they're completely isolated
You hit exactly on what I've been feeling about 'shallow writing'. Those moments have just grated on me. Hopefully they'll reduce over time. Halbrand? My gut at the minute is he'll turn to evil and become one of the Nazgul, maybe the witch king
I truly disliked the harfoots having a tradition of ABANDONING VULNERABLE PEOPLE BEHIND and MOCKING THE PEOPLE THEY LEFT BEHIND. Also Galadriel being a gate keeping gaslighting girlboss is boring as fuck. I don’t understand why writers keep thinking that a strong female character has to be like a man, like, have they ever heard of sailor moon or Elle woods?
it's typically written BY men, following corporate checklists, and pandering for social media head pats... now that the jeff epps seem to have gone into hiding. usually, the characters that we connect to were created by someone or a team who were creative, passionate, and believed. here, it's all just a job. it's all politics. they take things people love and then repackage it to service THEIR EGO. they repurpose. they hijack. they do not care about the story or characters, let alone actually pioneering progressive ideals or honoring the source material. ... the people who defend this show... i can understand. their bar for quality... is not very high. and they are very forgiving. and they just want to have a good time with something that they already like. or is popular. but that is basically what this entire show is. plastic. this is very expensive plastic. which they hope you will pay money for. dina? the dwarf princess or queen, and elendil? isildur's dad? have been the only highlights so far. their characters and acting totally steal the scenes. galadriel? morfyyd clark, i think? people praised her other work. so i checked it out. it's a psychological horror movie. where she plays a creep who is manipulating her patients but is socially inept. i'm sure she's a nice person, but that and her interviews pretty much spell it out. she is absolutely miscast. you can tell she is forcing it, and it contrasts so much when she has scenes with elendil? one has great acting and larger than life charisma, the other is forcing themselves to the point this would be better as a power ranger or cw show. and she's kind of grating. i don't want to use the word unlikable, because even unlikable characters and actors can be great and fun to watch... but she makes me want to turn the show off. and her face... she looks like a drug addict more often than not. on top of forced acting, unlikable personality, and a boring character presence in both scenes and plot.... i don't blame you for complaining. she's not sailor moon, and as simple as those characters all are, they get the job done in getting the audience invested. she's not storm, jean grey, kitty pride, or rogue from x men. she's not toph, katara, azula, or mei ling from avatar. she's not vi, caitlyn, jinx, or mel from arcane. she's not princess leia, mara skywalker from the extended universe lore, or cara dune. there are SO MANY FEMALE HEROES. and, yeah, they DO get sexualized, fridged, or wait for the male hero to save them sometimes. and other times, they are the ones saving everyone else. they could be female, colored, amd lgbt, and we still love amd respect them as heroes... that we can look up to. heroes that speak to us, akd maybe we can try to be brave like them. galadriel? elrond? halbrand? nori? i do not want to keep watching. maybe they all get better. maybe the story gets better. but, right now, it's a joke. complete with the punch line of corporate plastic, hollow virtue signaling, and incredibly bad writing. and morfyyd clark, poor lady, but she's dragging a show that is already sinking.
tldr: "the sea is always right", and i doubt this show will succeed. it's a billion dollar cw show. people will lose interest, and they will have only tuemselves to blame. but they won't. they'll keep complaining thst everyone criticizing this show are racists, sexists, and intolerant if lgbt. let this show fail. it's their problem. not ours.
Not only is the modern strong woman always written “as a man”, but it’s always the most annoying type of man! If Galadriel was a male character, everybody and their mommas would be writing thought pieces about her toxic masculinity.
As I understood it, the Brandyfoots were going to get help/be in a good spot in the caravan UNTIL everything came out about Nori hiding the stranger and helping them despite the guidance to keep in line. It was more a punishment for her than for her father's injury.
While the moment when Galadriel explains the history of Numenor and its people to Halbrand is in theory the kind of expositional dialogue that feels more natural, the scene in the show is written so thinly that it feels like a rehearsed interview. None of Halbrand's questions seem to follow his own motivations and just feel like launch pads for Galadriel's next exposition dump. It was a very boring, unmotivated way to write in necessary context and was one of the more egregious moments that took me out of the first three episodes.
I never thought that it was that bad, though felt clunky on the first watch, on the 2nd felt more natural, but yeah they could have done that a little better, but what takes me off is Galadriel behavior and the harfoots plotline lol
i don't think, they will go that way. The King of the undead is only a side character in LotR, Halbrand has a far greater role here in the show, to not use him as one of the main antagonists. Sauron or one of the Nazguls, if the latter, then he also will be Theo's father... thats where my money is
Interesting to hear Tim's thoughts on this. I was so hyped when it was first announced. I'm not against it now, but I don't think I'm excited anymore? Idk weird
I totally understand you in regards to the lack of depth. Apart from the Hobbits and maybe with Dwarfs section the story still feels very one dimensional and it is boring. Everything looks and sounds amazing, the middle earth is still fascinating but it's missing in the story aspect. We are 3 hours into this show this is longer than most movies, sure it's a tv show it can have slower pace but this is way too slow.
Don’t know what this says about me, but I’m grooving on the show just as it is. Maybe it’s just the beautiful cinematography and the meandering pace that puts me in a comfort zone mood. Maybe after trying and giving up on GoT, I’m just happy for a Tolkien-eque show that doesn’t give me anxiety.
Totally agree with your last statement, I'm truly enjoying it so far, but I wish there was more depth to it. Also I'd really enjoy your theory about Halbrand and if he was Sauron I think that would be a dealbreaker for me, just like if The Stranger happens to be Gandalf and not a blue wizard.
I agree completely with what you said at the end. There are moments that give me hope, that show me they do understand the lore and themes of Tolkien’s world… and then there are moments that make we want to pull my hair out. I’m gonna keep watching it because I can see the potential. I keep on saying that, that I see “potential”. But at a certain point they have to turn potential into reality. They have all the pieces for a good show, but they haven’t proven they can put them together yet.
I appreciate the idea that Miriel might actually be elf-friend, but knows that faction is out of power, so is acting as best as she can to keep the country together while Pharazon is fucking shit up. That was cool honestly. But the thing that bothers me about the harfoot (and Gandalf), and Halbrand (who I have ***so much fear*** that the crest is the bird/winged earendil/gondorian thing) is that they are making the story too small and narrow. Dwarven lifespans seem too compressed (20 years isn't nothing, but we are told they live into the many hundreds if not slain by foe. Even in the 3rd Age 250 doesn't seem too uncommon, and I want to say somewhere we have examples besides Durin Deathless that they lived 500+ years). Why is Celebrimbor needing to have his forge built in a single season!?! Why is it only in the last 20 years Moria has expanded (no, neither Mithril, nor rings or power, nor simaril would be a sufficient explanation)? They are somehow managing to make Middle Earth seem small. The same way that the disney sequels screwed things up by relying way too much on existing characters. Rey doesn't need to be related to someone important ffs. The Skywalkers don't need to be the only family of relevance in the galaxy.
I will also say as impetuous and silly as Galadriel is during most of this episode (and that horseback riding....), the actress has a wonderful mastery of fiery speech and facial expressions. Her lines holding contempt for the explanations of the works of the Valar by men is amazing. Now why she feels that the Edain owe the elves a debt? That I don't understand. Certainly Finrond never felt that way about men. Famously so. Is it possible Galadriel blames Beren/Men for her brother's death a bit? Maybe, but that would be an explanation worth exploring
"Just a little bit shallow?"...for myself, I'm not watching the "show" but it has been interesting to see everyone's reactions to it....and their rationalizations for things...I will be enjoying the long ride down with you all, but it pains me greatly how Amazon wasted an opportunity and how Tolkien's descendants' greed enabled it.
Interesting thoughts, especially on those two moments you pointed out of shallow sounding dialogue. I kinda just went with it, but you explained it well that I can see why one would see it that way. Largo and Nori.. feel oddly odd among the Harfoots, and I think that’s intentional, but it may be something I’m just hoping. I think Nori and Largo’s hearts and curiosity may play more into the passing down of knowledge/characteristics to the Hobbits more than the rest of the Harfoots. I’m fully on Adar being Sauron. I can’t see the orcs showing anyone else that reverence. I know the smithing seems a big nod for Halbrand, but..I kinda am seeing it as him just running away. He’s on the sea for who knows what reason, and imo he wants to join the smithy so he doesn’t have to go back to the Southlands for whatever dark destiny awaits him. Which i believe he will ultimately fail at and become one of the 9. Agreed on Arondir’s prison stuff though. And an added element to Arondir finally deciding to cut the tree, and his “forgive me”..after they told us in ep 1 that he was a “grower” before everything, with his confusion, almost anger(?), at Bronwyne’s “we crush the petals” with those flowers, it was a nice detail for me. Maybe it’s just..me not having read the Silmarillion mixed with knowing they can’t use it anyway, but I’ve kinda been enjoying Galadriel and wonder what will happen that will lead her to how she is when we see her in Fellowship of the Ring. But I wonder how much some of the…lack of depth some may feel can kinda stem from the 5 season situation, as much as that situation will also help. If they’ve stretched some of these arcs out more due to that 5 season contract, they’ll be more of a slow burn or take time to get traction, and maybe that impacted the way characters are presented in these early episodes? Idk, but I can see that being a potential con of having all 5 seasons signed off on?
Counterpoint on the Harfoot thing: I think this could be an interesting and even good attempt by the showrunners to explain the Hobbit's anti-adventurous and closed-in sentiments in the third age.
Concerning the Harfoots, and they 'brutality'. I've thought about how they've presented themselves to the outside world, I think it makes sense from a worldbuilding perspective to leave behind stragglers. So here goes my theory: So, in the first episode, we're introduced to them as a small species that hides whenever they could potentially come in contact with the world of the big folk. Their whole encampment, clothing & accessoires are set up to the ability of blending in. Even the carts and their head adornments, as they migrate, are decorated to appear like grassland that waves in the wind. But to a species so hellbent on blending in, the worst thing that could happen is a straggler that is struggeling. That sort of 'breaks' the rythm the others have set in order to blend it. It would attract unwanted eyes, both humanoid and not. So in that sense, anyone who cannot keep up endangers the rest of the group. Also, in the example of Nori and her family, it is mentioned by Marigold that she fears they're going to be left behind in ep 2. I took that as she feared of being forbidden to join the caravan at all, instead of being punished to join at the back. That they are allowed to join at all, could be an act of mercy, but only if they can keep up. The carts are as big as the family that needs to live in it (hence why poppy's cart is smaller) so it would be hard for anyone to lend a hand to help another cart when your own is heavy enough as it is. It would only increase the chances of both carts not making it, instead of just the one. On top of that, something that I think the writers have down very well with the worldbuilding of the harfoots, it the amount of 'sayings' they have. "Lend us a foot' (instead of a hand) comes to mind, but also the one Poppy mentions to Malva 'mind your own fire' (don't meddle in other's business). The last one stood out to me that even thought they are a tightknit community, they do have a saying that could be translated to 'mind yourself, first'. I don't hate it, it shows maybe not the brutality of the Harfoots, but rather how difficult it is to ensure a whole group of small beings can survive in a world that is quite literally too big for them.
I haven't made it past the second episode for this reason: It's striking how the different story lines fall flat, while others are okay but not spectacular. I can name only three or four characters that so far have taken the crap writing they were given and made it work: Arondir, Nori, Prince and Princess Durin, and that's about all. Where is the story? Why is Galadriel behaving like an wooden post one minute, and a bloodthirsty shrew the next? Meteor man? Really? The entirety of the Silmarillion, and this is it? I've fallen in mud puddles deeper than this. Don't get me wrong. I love the visuals. Khazad Dum was gorgeous. It just can't keep me interested when the writing goes from okay to outright bad. I quit caring about Galadriel when she jumped off the boat in the middle of the ocean. I kept hoping something would swallow her and spit her back out with a little more common sense. From what I've read here in the comments that didn't happen. I think I'd rather enjoy your reviews of this dumpster fire than sit through it myself.
I am glad you addressed that about how the production spends too much time on the scenic shoots and the fantastical music. I was going to point that out too. It feels like “fan service” or “look, we picked all these beautiful locations” and “we can sound just like the Lord of the Rings movies”, and I still don’t know what’s going on, and I don’t feel like I have a reason to care for the characters because they feel… out of character?? But that could just be because I didn’t read the Silmarillion or Tolkien’s other works besides The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings… but yes. The story lines for me don’t feel relevant to one another and it feels choppy and flat. But I’ll still watch it only because I want to see if it gets better. 😶
I thought this was a weaker episode compared to the first two. It felt less cinematic, which makes sense since the director is a television director while the first worked on movies. The scene with Galadriel on the horse felt like the director indulging in an expensive toy (apparently the camera they used is quite high tech), which is a shame because I like the emotional core of that idea. It touches back on the elves connection with nature and animals, the execution just lands in saccharine territory. This episode is also hard to follow if you're not familiar with Tolkein's works. The warg had a neat design but the animation and set integration seemed off, especially when it was first introduced in the tunnel. Maybe they blew all their budget for the episode on Numenor and had to take some shortcuts, lol. I like most of the characters so far, especially Nori and Arondir and Elrond, but I'm also sort of apprehensive about the direction they're taking Galadriel. If they push a romantic attraction with Halbrand, especially if he's Sauron (I hope this isn't the case, I'd much rather he be King of the Dead/Witch King/Nazgul), I'll be irritated. I don't see her as juvenile, however. Just very proud and driven by obsession. "The sea is always right" actually works for me. It's both a military mantra and three iambs--something the showrunners stressed was giving specific meter to different races. Plus, I have a theory that it's a corruption of an older saying that incorporated the name of the Valar of the sea, Ulmo. They stripped away the original meaning and left something more watered down (pun unintended) in the same way that they've left a statue of what is likely Uinen to rot in Halbrand's jail cell. Galadriel even ends the episode talking about how humans are 'afraid to name them'. It's possible they can't say these Valar’s names due to rights issues, but they were able to mention Aule in the last episode, so perhaps they can get an okay from the estate on this matter. I did not like the harfoot's chant either. Their plotline was a favorite of mine in the first two episodes, so I wasn't super crazy about the darker turn here. However, after listening to Dr. Corey Olson discuss them in his recent video on Rings and Realms, I've come around to it a little more. Something you didn't mention is that Adar means father. This episode, and really the show overall, has put quite a lot of emphasis on familial relations. We see it between Nori and her father and stepmother, Bronwyn and Theo (and maybe Halbrand?), Elendil and his kids, Durin and his children. It's also interesting because in Judeo-Christianity, God is often referred to as the Father. Characters like Galadriel and the people of Numenor have turned away from the gods in their pride, and that will only lead to tragedy. My far-flung theory is that Arondir will be transformed into an orc or a corrupted elf of some kind. I think corruption is central theme of this season and we'll see quite a few characters fall as a result.
I haven't read the Silmarillion, and honestly, I love everything you explain about Numenor. I just didn't get all that from watching the show. I got that they're rich and arrogant - that's mostly it. I wish the show worked in better, more interesting writing that ties in the lore, worldbuilding, and characters better.
I really think not only will Halbrand fail in fighting Sauron, but fail by falling himself. Specifically, by being one of the kings of men Sauron gifts one of the 9 rings to. We'll get to see him go from a flawed but determined and relatable underdog reluctant to rule, to a mighty yet power hungry ruler, before finally fading into the wraith world and becoming a nazgûl, perhaps even the Witch King himself.
I think one of the biggest problems with The Rings of Power is that it’s not for anybody. Non-Tolkien-fans can’t get the proper intended enjoyment out of it because without having read the Silmarillion there’s simply too much necessary context that they don’t have and which the show cannot reasonably give without an entire prequel season. So the show is for fans of Tolkien then, right? But so much has been changed that fans can’t help but feel like the writers didn’t understand what they were adapting. This is especially true for the seeming suggestion that the dwarves of Khazad-Dum might have found a silmaril. It's dangerous ground to tread on because it means that the writers either didn’t read the Silmarillion or somehow missed the entire point of it. The show has isolated any potential fans from enjoying this world and it’s disappointed those who are already fans by showing a lack of understanding.
My prediction is that Celebrimbor is Sauron...dude has a reputation as an unparalleled smith, is having folks build a giant forge to make something special, and he comes across as arrogant, confident, and somewhat scheming.
I don't think we've met Sauron. I think Sauron is hanging out in the Numenorian palace, and at some point, Galadriel's gonna be all, "We must sail for Middle Earth where Sauron is raising a new army!" and the Numenorians will scoff and say, "Sauron isn't raising an army in Middle Earth," and Galadriel will be all, "How can you be sure?" and Sauron himself will reply, "Because Sauron is right here."
I thought it was an improvement to what the first two episodes were, it has kept me interested to see more of the show, but it also took another hour to get through. Each episode has been an hour, and in the course of those 3 hours, it does feel like we are only now just beginning to have interesting stories take place. Obviously they are expanding on the things set up in those first two episodes, I quite liked that mark of Sauron being relieved to actually be a map, I liked seeing that even if you could escape from prison, it's like no man's land, just too much of a distance to tread for safety, getting the stranger more involved with the rest of the Harfoots in general and not just Nori, but it also took forever to get to there. The show is for sure a slow burn, but not in the best of ways, its pacing takes that slow burn and it's like waiting for water to boil when you've only got the burner at its lowest setting. Something is sure to happen eventually, but you're not going to be enjoying your meal anytime soon either.
The Harfoot customs are actually surprisingly realistic, well done by the writers. That's what happens in real normadic hunter-getherer cultures. For example, Native Americans in the Great Plains would leave their elderly behind once they couldn't participate in their migrations any more. Inuit would carry their eldery out into the snow. Caring for the very old is a luxury of settled cultures, not surprising that the audience has a hard time grasping this. So much for "close-nit communities that help each other". The mantra of the Harfoots is: "Nobody walks alone - or else you die."
I don't see how it's odd. The harfoots moving as a unit which can't support the weak isn't strange at all. It's what makes the most sense for a nomadic pre hobbit society living in almost utter secrecy. They survive off the natural world, hobbits have agriculture. They live among the lands of the big ones hidden away, while hobbits patrol & keep their lands to themselves directly. Harfoots move, Hobbits settle. The Harfoots aren't Hobbits, they're Harfoots, like rabbits, fleeing, burrowing, hiding, & if need be abandoning a discovered burrow(weakened family) for the overall survival. Their need for mobility & secrecy makes sense but as the world expands & populations of big ones grow, it's going to make a lot of sense that the Harfoots will find their way of life less sustainable. If I had to guess, there'd be a season that doesn't sustain them enough to migrate, or is brutal enough that too many of them would be left behind. They'll have to adjust, discover husbandry & by proxy agriculture. Staying one season's turn will begat a not small demographic who simply don't see why they have to migrate the next. They settle, then the next cycle the others return per usual & stop for a season. Each time fewer leave, they've found unforseen safety in being settled. They become hobbits. It makes far more sense than the idea Hobbits were just always hobbit like, being so small they undoubtedly would have started alike to the rabbits they're implied to represent.
So far my theory is Halbrand will be the "father of" the Haradrim (they're the folks who ride the Oliphants in lotr). I agree in thinking he will fail where Aragorn had succeeded, and his people will be the Haradrim whereas Aragorn's people were those of Gondor.
I don't what to think of the series so far. The first two episodes were ok for me but in the third one, I had the sudden realisation that all of the time period of the Second Age happens in the span of the series. For example (I dont remember the details of Numenor in the books), it felt like the numenoreans are already corrupted by Sauron, when he's not even here yet. Or, Ar-Pharazon is not supposed to be born yet, let alone Isildur. And yet, they are in the shown before the rings of power are even forged. I don't necessarily mind creative liberties when adapting a book but having the 3000 years history of the books happening at the same time is quite jarring. Also, I really hope the Stranger is not Gandalf. Because, first, that's too on the nose and also because he seems to be a bit too grim for that. He would fit Anatar, even though, I don't know why Anatar would have lost his memory.
Very interesting breakdown - still haven't seen the series, but I'm always curious about your thoughts on the latest episode. Also, great seeing your cute co-host.
I think they improved on episode but still early to give my opinion on specific things. One thing it irks me is that Galadriel is treated as a regular elf which I question a lot. I think surprisingly that the hobbits are my by far my favorite storyline, yes there are problems but I think their much more interesting. At the end of the episode I was more intrigued. I agree that they have done amazing work of the setting of Númenor, as Tolkien said it was inspired by Atlantis which I would imagine to have similar Greek and Egyptian feel to it.
The hobbits leaving behind the ones who cannot follow would make sense in one condition : if they were desperately fleeing an enemy that's just on their tail. However, it's not compatible with the lifestyle displayed for the first 2 and half episodes.
Aa someone who is not too familiar with everything lotr. What ecactly are the south lands? Like the gondor regions or more towards harad? Thanks in advance for anyone who can explain it :)
The Hairfoots have this "tribal" lifestyle... I think that the "brutality" of leaving people behind is basically their way of punishment... they would have helped (in this case, they would have let Noris father walk at the front and therefore it would have been easy to assist him and make sure he doesn't fall behind) but because Nori betrayed the trust of the collective, she and her family are being punished. They did not yet get excommunicated, but they did get shunned and isolated.
Hey Tim, who do you think the stranger is? I've read the books only once, but never got through the Silmarilion. I'd really like to see Tom Bombadil on screen as he is one of my favorite. Could the stranger be him?
Great video man, hope you review all episodes because you can comment on the lore but also on the quality of the show as a series by itself. Agreed with pretty much all your takes on the episode and the show, it was the best of the three because mainly of Numenor, though I feel like Im enjoying the Harfoots less than you (even though this episode they werent as annoying as the previous two), and yes, I definetely agree that the show seems shallow so far, at least when you compare with Tolkien's work and PJ previous adaptations. I dont think its trash like some say, but far from great like others do, so far its an above average show (granted mainly because of the visuals and the soundtrack). I have been watching a lot of lore videos and rereading the books, and I think the show is more enjoyable if you look at it as a loosely adaptation of Tolkien's writings, otherwise you will get pretty angry and annoyed with all the changes. They need to make main characters like Galadriel and Gil-Galad more charismatic, but so far Elendil, Elrond and Durin and even Nori have been decent characters to follow and can carry the show. I also personally liked a lot the character of Arondir, though I heard some felt him bland. Finally, the southland plot is one that has a very nice potential to be great in this show, since we all wanted Amazon to adapt some of the more mysterious event that happened in the eastern and southern Middle earth, I think Halbrand can have a great arc if he does exactly as you said, fails where Aragorn succeds, and even becomes a Nazgul at the end, that could be pretty amazing, if he is Sauron it will be very deflating lol, Galadriel should and would know better.
I think an extension of the 'First Chapter Problem' applies especially to adaptations which have changed things - namely you don't yet know where they're going with things, and everyone is second guessing or comparing ot the original. THere's plenty of adaptations where, once you're halfway in you can see where they're taking the story and appreciate it, but in the opening people are much more likely to be 'well that bit is different so EVERYTHING IS WRONG'
A clever link that some people are pointing out is that Halbrand could be Theo’s father and that there is some link with the dark blade (Halbrands heirloom maybe). Continuing with this theory comes the idea that Theo could be corrupted by the blade and become the Witch King. Food for thought I guess :)
Theo is 100% Arondir's son. They have similar skin tone, and his ears are conspicuously hidden by his hair. Not to mention the tension between Arondir and the mother.
For all we know, anyone in their village has the same chance of being Theos father as Halbrand. People conjure up this connection from very shallow evidence.
I thought the episode was by far the best, and I was actually really excited. Then I realized the episode was only like half over and we went to the Harfoots. However, the Arondir arc toward the end was worth the drag.
Кино
What was the best/worst part of episode 3 to you?
~ Tim
Best- giladrial did not try to swim across an ocean
Worst- the horse ride. You know the one
Worst part was Galadriel being so abrasive towards the Numenorians. Like, they saved your life and you need them to provide you with a ship, why the hell are you antagonizing them and saying that they should be helping you as gratitude for the island being a gift from the Elves to them?
She’s supposed to be one of the wisest creatures in existence. Yet she doesn’t understand basic diplomacy? “Thank you for saving me, you guys are awesome, if you could please provide me with a small ship to return home I would be forever in your debt”. Boom, problem solved, you have your ship and can leave right away.
Best part of the episode was probably Elendil, from his appearance to his demeanor, he felt like a classic and proper Lord of the Rings character. Also, Numenor looked cool.
Best part for me is the hobbits. Still enjoy this storyline the most, and that is the only storyline that feels at least somewhat Tolkien-ish.
Worst part is Galadriel. I don't know who this character is, but it's not Galadriel. And that horse scene...oh brother, that was cringe..no disrespect to the actress though. She does a good job with what is given to her. Loved her in Saint Maud
best: seeing Numenor, worst: the hobbits laughing about how one of their friends was killed by bee's, aren't the hobbits meant to be too innocent for morbid humour?
Worst: The hobbits singing their "nobody goes off trail" song a million times on loop. Felt insane that they'd just sing that. It's not even a song. Even marching in the military songs are more rhythmic and imaginative than that.
Best: the design and looks of Numenor
Edit: lol after watching, he also hated the Hobbit song
I don't really like the idea of Halbrand being Sauron. I would love it if he was actually the Witch King, and that in his quest for redemption of his people, he is presented with a ring of power, and without him knowing is slowly corrupted by it. Doomed to serve the evil his ancestors worshipped.
this
But... Wasn't Angmar's kingdom in the north, though?
@@ninj-as7710 yeah, but the rings that turned the men into wraiths haven't been made yet at this point, so the Witch King (or Angmar) can't really exist yet.
Edit: Did a quick Google search, and if the info I found is correct, we should probably be somewhere around 500 to 800 years away from the first appearance of the Nazgul as a whole at this point in the show
Well I feel like Khamul would be more fitting for the profile. Most people asume the Witch king to be Numenorian
I think he will become the witch king, hope so since there is potential for greatness in this story, him being sauron is just bad bad bad, and breaks the explict text description of galadriel noticing sauron's disguise from the start.
When I went to Water Survival training with the military their motto was "The Ocean makes cowards of us all" I always really liked that cause even as a seasoned diver and spending half my life on the water. The unknown and unpredictability has always been creepy
But there is a difference in saying a phenomenon/situation has a certain psychological effect on us, and claiming a phenomenon is "always right". Because in the first example it causes a psychological reaction in us, in the second it is understood as an entity with actual agency like a god. And this is just wrong for Numenor, because they worshipp Eru Illuvatar, and secondly the sea if the realm of the Valar Ulmo, so has no agency on it´s own. So talking about the sea as it was an entity, is plain wrong for the Numenoreans.
@@anonymussicarius8899 I wasn't defending the dumb saying they came up with. More pointing out if they felt compelled to go with a mantra, they could've came up with a more thought provoking and emotion stirring one than what they did lol
@@TylerSere I am sorry if my comment made the impression that I was "accusing" you of defending the saying.
My intention was to explain to a future reader of your comment why that mantra and the show´s sying were not equivalent.
Apologies again if you felt attacked.
Ooh! If we're talking about better mottos than Numenor's, then what strikes me the most is "Serve order, and order will serve you." This line came in my elementary school because it's to tell that discipline is key to our studies and all the graces will come back ten times more. But, in my own dark interpretation, the definition of "order" can also be applied outside schools. Put it in a corrupt company and it's a simple way of saying, "Trust in our illegal methods. We're pro in this, and you'll soon get your payment." Whatever and wherever this motto will be used, it just makes a person question the laws and standards in their community. It’s a daunting thought, but the motto doesn’t restrain one to find their own meaning of balance.
Unlike that straightforward, cringey line. “The sea is always right.” If I were to say it with confidence, the word "right" will just let my voice prolong the syllable like "Raiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigggggggggghhhhhht..." It's already hinting the internal conflict of the character, giving that question, "Are you sure I'm doing the right thing?" Not sure if that motto was intentional, but it left me slapping my forehead and sighing louder than a flying airplane. Those people should’ve shouted that motto of yours @TylerSere or maybe something poetic just like what every Tolkien fan expected.
@@ma.leilaalexandrajandayan5898 It's hilarious that this is a top rate response to such a scenario; considering the media we consume is largely based around murder, mercantalism, and general warfare between the opposing aspects of our focus characters, but we still have to speak in such delicate and unassuming terms, creator forbid we cross a boundary spawned from nothing but viscera
I’m really struggling with the way the elves are being depicted. They just feel like humans with pointy ears who are trying too hard to sound poetic. Ironically, I believe the pointed ears trope doesn’t even come from Tolkien, so in his mind at least there was something else about them that physically distinguished them from man. But, this issue with the elves reminds me of why I struggled to get into reading Terry Brooks back in the day. I even remember saying to my wife after reading one of his books that the elves just felt like humans with extended life spans. Unfortunately I think Rings of Power has the same problem. I don’t think they really understand what Tolkien was saying about the elves and how Ilúvatar created them different from men.
I agree. I think my biggest problem is that I can't tell which elves are older or more experienced, which I always felt was an important element of elven culture in Tolkien's Works. The difference in depiction between Celebrimbor and Galadriel makes this most apparent, since despite their closeness in age, one looks and acts like a wise elder and one acts like a young, hot-headed human. Elrond will eventually be Galadriel's son-in -law and yet they interact with each other as total equals while he shows clear reverence for Celebrimbor.
"Its not necessarily bad writing"
No. Its bad writing. The throne scene was like two people having two completely different conversations.
Loved how Byzantine looking Numenor was, granted you can't go wrong with having Johm Howe back as an art director. I'm still iffy about Galadriel's characterization even as a younger elf. She's by no means weak willed, but I have a hard time with her being impetuous.
Here’s the thing that irks me with the “Galadriel is younger” argument.
Sure, she is youngER than in LOTR, but she is not YOUNG!!
Tolkien’s elves become adults at around 100 years old. The show’s own lore has established that Galadriel has lived through centuries.
It’s like saying that it’s okay for a 50 years old woman to act like a spoiled brat because she isn’t 96 years old yet…
Galadriel is one of the few we have quite exact dates for too. She is something like 5000 years old at the end of the second age (and we know this doesn't change because she is shown as being alive during the years of the trees in the show), and only 8000/8500 by the events of LOTR.
@@anthonyschroeder521 So she should have 2 thousand years or so at the start of the 2nd age, but with the time compression we cant be sure if its early or late 2nd age at the moment. Anyhow, by the lore, she can have no less than 2 thousand and no more than 5 thousand, old enough to act very wise and calm, not like a 18 year old impulsive teenager.
She seemed pretty damn weak-willed to me when she decided to sail to Valinor simply because Gil Galad said she could. Ugh.
@@SnailHatan With all the foresight of a 2 year old when she then jumped off into the sea
You hit it on the head with the poetry aspect. The feeling I've had is that the language of the writing is just severely lacking in that tolkien-esque style that imo is so foundational to immersing you into the world. It was you or daniel who also mentioned the 'marvelization' in the dialogue at times, and it's the same feeling. The poetic old-school language of the dialogue in tolkien's works is just so unique by today's standards and it really suffers when it deviates from that.
I feel like even getting some queues from the writing in Spartacus would have given these writers a good starting point.
it felt too modern really, at least they havent tried marvel comedy formula, yet lol
Absolutely agree!
Particularly with the stuff between the guards, it's... it's Diet Whedon.
So they ask, why were the elves turned away? Galadrial says, I think we're about to find out... that never happens. Neither of them ask questions about that. Without the lore I wouldn't know why they hated elves. And yet with the lore I know there was soo much build up to this moment that is absent. Also, I've gotten weird romantic vibes first with elrond and then with helbrand. She is elronds mother in law and she was one of the few not fooled by sauron
She’s a female protagonist, so obviously she has to be romantically involved with or interested in literally every protagonist-adjacent male she comes across, don’t you know? /s
I largely agree with the sentiment of the writing being shallow. The "the sea is always right" thing was really cringey. The only dialogue that has really stood out to me so far was the conversation between Durin and Elrond about the difference between 20 years for an elf and 20 years for a dwarf. Every other piece of dialogue has been mediocre at best. If it weren't for the visuals I would probably have lost interest after the first episode. I like the acting for the most part, but I don't think the writing gives the actors much to work with. Galadriel is one of the worst examples of this. I think the actress is doing well, but they've given her a really predictable character arc and a character that starts off really immature, which is incredibly odd for an elf. The fact that they have so many concurrent plotlines is not doing the series any favors. While I imagine the Stranger will matter at some point, the Harfoots feel like they are just there because the showrunners wanted hobbits. This episode I was actually annoyed that it cut to the Harfoots. I wanted to see more of Numenor and have some scenes with Elrond, who's the only character I've started to actually care about.
The Rings of Power's contrast with House of the Dragon is really stark. House of the Dragon made me care deeply about all of the main characters within just two hours. Rings of Power has made me somewhat care about one character in three hours. The writing is far more subtle and conveys the themes of the show's world incredibly well. The writing mixes with the visuals to create the world of House of the Dragon, whereas Rings of Power has to rely solely on spectacle to create its world. It looks like Tolkien. But it doesn't feel like Tolkien.
Because it has no Tolkien, HOTD literally has George working in the series, thats why the one is average and the other great.
Agreed. Especially since the new episodes air close to each other and I watch first the RoP and then the HotD, it’s such a contrast. The character work in HotD is good - people are distinct and recognizable from episode to episode. They have obvious flaws and I still care about them. Several conflicts are clearly set up, but the individual story beats are still surprising. Everything just … works. As opposed to RoP where almost everything in the script is broken.
Holy shit, so many words to say nothing at all.
@@inspectorpenguin4474 Lol ok.
The problem with the 20 year discussion is though: Elrond is the twin brother of Elros, so he his a descendant of the mortal Beren and the elf Luthien. When the First Age ended, the Valar gave Elros and Elrond a choice which fate they wanted, that of mortal men, or of elves. Elros chose the gift of mortality, while Elrond chose immortality. Amazon is aware of this, for they bring this up in the Hall of Wisdom painting. So of all the elves, Elrond should be the one who would have absolutley no problem understanding the difference in time importance! Would it have been any other elve, or a Durin - Elrond - Celembrimbor discussion on this topic with Elrond mediating, I would have accepted it, but Elrond knows this and does not need an explanation!
I think this episode on particular completely de-mystifies Galadriel, and not in a good way. She’s one of the Noldor who saw the Two Trees of Valinor: this is what gives her a sort of ethereal aura, and causes her eyes to be particularly bright and piercing. But here it’s like “oh she can just cover her ears and no one will recognise her as any different from a human!” That’s not how this works. And as for her constantly threatening everyone, that got on my nerves too. She seems more like a knock-off Haleth than the Galadriel who spent much of her life in Doriath with Melian.
Same Galadriel power in multiple but also insight understand people magically nothing of she do show that.
Their is a really "modern" touch on the different races. Elves are just immortal people with long ear and a love for tree. Dwarves are just little and tough, with funny accent, a love for alcohol and stone, hobbits are simple people, etc. I don't see any of the depth I can see in Tolkien writing. And I think it's because they don't care. It's not for Tolkien fans, it's to make money out of Peter Jackson's LotR fans. I'm really disappointed with it. And I feel that with the lot of idiots criticizing the show for nothing it's impossible to talk about it
Thanks for mentioning this, its a small annoyance from my part, but would it be that hard for them to give this actress more bright and shining eyes? Like Cate had in the movies, its one quality that is really mentioned in Tolkien about the Noldor who saw the light of the trees, specially Galadriel, and it would help to make her feel otherwordly instead of common elf. Some shots I cant even see clearly the color of her eyes, give that girl some contact lenses Amazon, it aint that hard! lol
To be honest entire show in my mind destroy the character of Galadriel
I think an element of why she feels different from what people expect could be due to where those details are from. They only have LotR for her. They needed a character to be the focal point and stories and characters need arcs. Her arc is going to be growing into her LotR version over the 5 seasons (Tolkien Estate’s only non-negotiable was that the showrunners could not do anything that would alter the story of the 4 main books). I don’t think we have as much of her history in LotR?
Add in that, for details from the Silmarillion, the Silmarillion, while brilliantly collected by Christopher, is still a collection of not always the most recent works or ideas Tolkien had, but at least the latest that was fully written enough and didn’t contradict other pieces of it or LotR.
@Pixachuu Personally, I’d advise in being mindful of using “they don’t care”..after 3 eps especially. We don’t know what went on in the writers room, how they worked on these details. And with what details we have seen them put in the story, what references they make, there are things that very much do show care. From a certain perspective, one could also argue things like Jackson and Phillipa not caring when it came to Faramir, but it was more they knew but felt the change better fit the story they were telling. This is a difficult thing with shows, when we have to judge episode by episode though.
* SPOT ON: This series has NO poetry (in the deepest sense of the word); the Fellowship of the Rings begins with an elvish chant and a hook that instantly captures Tolkien's entire ethos of mortal men and the passing of the world: "Much that once was is now lost." ....I'm beginning to think that the great superficial visuals of the Rings of Power is just to compensate for what it utterly lacks: Tolkien's soul. How ironic that this series focuses on Numenor!
The opening lines of LotR were taken not from Elvish anything but from Treebeard. Wasn't a chant, either, just his normal slow, poetic way of talking.
@@caffetiel Well in the movie it ain't Treebeard lol.
@@caffetiel yeah Treebeard says it near the end of the book doesn't he? Now THAT is a brilliant adaptation 👏
The problem with the elves is that they look too modern. Imagine if they looked more like the ones in the LOTR trilogy, with their long hair and pristine clothes - the whole sequence would appear more intimidating because we re getting the contrast of this elevated beings being reduced to slaves covered in mud and filth.
Instead they all have conveniently short haircuts, act pretty much the same and look pretty indistinguishable from common men
The hair styles don't bother me as much as the ages. Why are they casting middle aged men to play Gil Galad, Celebrimbor and the Silvan Elf commander when Galadriel looks younger than them but is older than all of them? I agree that they are too human in general.
The no sideburns make them look like richards
The only thing that distinguishes Tolkien's elves from humans was their uncommon height and beauty. Otherwise, they looked a lot like men. Tolkien says nothing about their ears..
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Also, Elves being held by orslcs is not so out of order. Orcs are corrupted elves.
@@politereminder6284 Tolkien also at least implict mentions that elves had a different "aura" from men, i dont remember exactly the quotes, but when you read his works, you get a feeling they would be easily spotted, specially the high elves of valinor, who dwell in the light of the trees, they were as you said, taller, more beautiful and had extreme piercing and bright eyes. Probably the Avari and Nandor elves could be more hard to spot, but Galadriel should really be one of a kind, the showrunners should have done something to really make feel her "shine" among the others, everyone that is not from Valinor should be in awe of her the moment they saw her, at least thats the impression I get reading the text.
In this aspect, PJ nailed the elves, specially Galadriel.
@@thatotherted3555 Fair point.👍. Making Celebrimbor old was truly a weird casting choice.
Elves seem to suffer from the same power issues as Ninjas, super badass one on one, but get em in a group and they just become so weak. Like the contrast of super acrobatics followed by fumbling around and getting bodied by a lone warg is kinda weird and dumb. Like it just was so distracting to me, least favorite part so far. Favorite part was that Numenor looked awesome, like, looks so cool to live in
I just thought of one way to fix the brutality of the Harfoots (there are definitely many more ways):
1. The Harfoots have animals to pull the wagons.
2. During an accident, all the animals run off and Nori's father breaks his foot.
3. They have to carry the wagons themselves, in addition to carrying Nori's father, which makes them all slow and vulnerable.
4. They get hunted by wolves. Nori's father has to convince the others to leave him behind because of his broken foot, but many of the others refuses, because "nobody gets left behind".
5. The wolves closes around those who stayed, but suddenly retreats. The wizard shows up and has done some magic shit. Then he's able to bring back those animals who ran off as well, and he's welcomed to the group.
Any of these would be great. It absolutely blew me away that they’re literally chanting, “Nobody walks alone” but also, we will leave you behind the moment you are inconvenient.
One of them is injured and the consensus of the entire group is, “Sucks to suck, guess you and your family will just die.” It makes no sense in the context of their culture. They’ve only been seen helping each other and being kind, all working together for this festival. If they wanted to make the Harfoots brutal they could have, but they also don’t. They just wanted a contrivance for the Stranger to be useful.
And this won’t even endear the Stranger to the rest of the group, just the Brandyfoots. Because the rest of the group has decided that it’s okay for the Brandyfoots to die!
Or...Or...hear me out, the Hobofoots that are DANCING down the trail get off thier asses and help their friends. 😂
>1. The Harfoots have animals to pull the wagons.
Yeah I was expecting them to have goats to show the scale difference. Missed opportunity and would have increased a sense of nature with them. Thor: Love and Thunder had big goats compared to people and could do it for a smaller budget.
@@Blueeyesthewarrior Basically, they're chanting "Never walk by yourself!" not "Always stick together!"-I actually kinda really like the way it challenges people to think about the different things that words can mean, and how words can seem at an initial glance to mean one thing, and yet could actually mean something else entirely no matter how expected or unexpected that might be. Like, we really shouldn't take it for granted, when certain words or phrases have taken on certain almost shorthand-esque connotations not necessarily quite so inherently implied from the outside just by the words themselves yet easily recognizable and familiar and a nearly-instantaneous given to those on the inside who have that common cultural context. Like when people who don't speak English as a first language ask "What's wrong with you?" instead of asking "What's wrong?" or "What's bothering you?"-but people who speak English as a first language are more likely to say "What's _wrong_ with you!?!" to imply disbelief or incredulity that someone did something which was really messed-up and difficult to believe that anyone would/could ever actually do[ or such]. As nice as poetic dialogue would be, I actually wonder if maybe the dialogue's lack of poetry is causing people to underestimate just how much intention and depth[ or just how layered the meaning which] the dialogue actually could or couldn't possibly still be written to have?? 🤔 I dunno. It's hard to say. But, who knows, maybe that's just me not being pessimistic enough or something.? Lolll
Is it really such a bad thing for the series to show that, sometimes, things aren't always as they at first immediately appear to be? And, thus, to have a group of people that seem on the surface to _not_ be brutal yet are actually far more brutal than you might ever expect them to be just coming into them from the outside totally unfamiliar with what is and isn't culturally normalized for them?
At this point Galadriel is thousands of years old, has been enmeshed in the workings of the noble elven houses and studied at the side of the Maiar Melian. Yet she treats the court of Numenor like a surly teenager would talk to their parents.
That's all the writers themselves know. You write what you know, and at your own intelligence level. It is impossible to do more.
I would love for Halbrand to turn out to be one of the Nazgul. It would give the series a chance to show why humans fall for the allure of quick and easy power out of the right reasons. Halbrand wants the power to save his people, to establish a real realm and to show the other civilisations of the second age that the men of the southlands can govern themselves. I think it would be a good show of irony if the device by which he seeks this would be a ring of power, given of course directly or indirectly, by the very being he wants to distance his folk from.
"The sea is always right" was just there so it could be quoted again later as defence. Which felt lame and made me imagine a writer's meeting working out his justification to the queen out and how to foreshadow it.
Plus Harfoots - as you mention, " Nobody walks alone!" Then later remembers those they left behind in a loose copy of Bilbo's birthday speech ( I was really hoping they wouldn't copy the 'Proudfeet!" moment, so was disappointed when they did ). It gets annoying when shows copy something we've heard before. Since SW and "I've a bad feeling about this..." it's becoming a trend. They say it's a "homage" or an Easter egg, but it just comes across as amateur "fan fiction" writing, which they did in the first episode when Galadrieal says the "air smells colder this way" which is a copy of Gandalf in the mines of Moria "..the air doesn't smell so fowl". Eye rolling moments.
Númenor looked like the VFX team were being told "More buildings!" every time they showed their work to the director - very OTT and felt unfeasible
The slow-mo of Galadreial happy on her horse was very weird and out of place compared to her personality the whole time prior. Poor editing and too long. Felt like it was out of context like we missed a scene where she would have given some background there to make us like her more. Not having that, just makes her look more self centred.
Just what?
“Galadriel is happy riding. I DONT GET IT HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE?!?!”
I love how every time Tim criticizes writing he gives an example of how it could have been better instead of just whinging about it like so many others on the internet. Keep up the good work
Once again, you pretty much hit my major points. I think this might be falling into the same issue as WoT or late GoT ran into, where they are given 'x' episodes and now write a story for them, rather than taking a story and deciding how many episodes are needed to tell it. Odd pacing and strange setups. Like, I cannot legitimately tell if we're looking at a multi-season epic with Sauron's defeat only coming after several story arcs, or if we're looking at a single season that will finish off with Isildur's fall.
Nah. The Jackson's movies and lots of other shows achieving much more in less time is proof enough this absolutely isn't the issue.
Good writer know the boundaries they're given and work within them without them being restraining by it.
We're half way season 1 of RoP now, and still in exposition, still nothing has happened, and we're constantly all over the place...
And indeed...the writing is shallow, frankly, just downright awful, from dialogue to characters' attributes, to scenario (too many things just don't make sense, written for opportunity only...)
I think the Harfoots would have treated Nori's family more fairly, had she not brought the Stranger into their midst. Something that's always known and not really explored about the Hobbits is their tribalism and xenophobia; don't like strangers, no sir, nobody from outside the Shire. And Nori's father mentions putting his cart at the front, presumably to people can step in and help them when he falters. And the way the Harfoots survive is banding together and keeping hidden from strangers.
So this combines into a situation where Nori brings a Very Dangerous Somebody into their midst, and suddenly they have to deal with him. I would suspect their fear is getting the better of them here, that they dislike the Stranger more than they want to take care of Nori and her family, but I may be reading depth into a shallow story.
I think that even if their cart had been up front none of the other Harfoots would have helped them with their cart, otherwise they wouldn’t have been worrying about it so much leading up to the migration. I think putting the cart at the front of the caravan would have only helped in that they would have had a bigger buffer to fall behind.
Also, the Stranger was just laying in their cart apparently. He was actively making the cart harder to pull whilst they were struggling and nobody says ANYTHING. He doesn’t come out of the bushes and reveal that he’s been following them, no he’s been hindering their progress and nobody is mad about it. That is so weird and out of character considering how much the Harfoots fear strangers.
They literally recite a list of the people they've left behind. It isn't just the stranger danger. Fake Hobbits are horrible people.
"Nobody goes off trail, nobody walks alone" ----> they *IMMEDIATELY* proceed to abandon someone to walk alone.
I'm gonna be honest, the way it was cut, I thought they were making a point on purpose, to make us notice the hypocrisy of Harfoot society.
I laughed out loud.
Same. It was absolutely terrible.
These hartfoot are awful, we just miss cannibalism from them now...
Ah, when the Harfoots started chanting I was really expecting for an amusing yet kind of terrifying song about the dangers of wandering off alone, but when it was just those two lines over and over... 😅 It felt kind of silly and boring, really. It could be kind of repetitive as marching songs often are since they're for marking the rythm and keep morale high, but who wants to repeat and listen to the same words over and over again. It's even worse that they're chanting it while literally leaving people behind, like, what...
I would've loved if Otto's lines changed and the rest of the Harfoots replied with a "and nobody walks alone" to each of his verses. I am not a native English native speaker, so I don't think I can come up with something much better in a YT commentary, but something like:
Otto: Nobody goes off-trail!
Others: And nobody walks alone!
Otto: We march to a better place.
Others: And nobody walks alone!
Otto: Beyond the trail there's constant threat
Others: So nobody wolks alone!
Yadda, yadda, yadda, you get my drift.
Like a mindless cult. And if you tweak the cult's rules, well you're the next sacrificial victim.
Well you did it, way better ✨
There's indeed a very creepy culty feeling to these hobbits.
I doubt the writers intended "Nobody walks alone, nobody goes off trail" to end up as more of a reinforced threat than a show of solidarity between the families, but that is what we got. Nobody walks alone, nobody goes off trail, because if you do then you will be left for dead with only a single line in a book to be remembered by.
My prediction for Halbrand is that he’ll rise up to accept his role as King, unite the South Lands and then Sauron will end up offering him one of the 9 rings of the kings of men and he’ll fall to the darkness. It would serve as a good parallel to Aragorn who was able to resist the temptation of evil and show precisely what makes Aragorn different from the other kings of men who fell under Sauron’s control.
That would be nice indeed...thing is, there's a persistent and apparently insider rumor about Hallbrand indeed being Sauron... 😓
I found the brutality of the Harfoots kind of interesting personally.
It's a strange innocent brutality of protecting the whole, getting to the next safe camp, even if it means cutting their losses. Then if the lost catch up all the better. Like with the book reading, sure a number could have been saved but they still keep them in their circle, in their hearts, in the absence. In some ways it makes me think on a... not more primitive, but earlier version of Bilbo returning to find his house being sold off. Not passed to his kin mind, just sold off. And then later he's Mad Baggins. Know him for his money, hopefully, but maybe don't get too attached.
I'm not quite sure if I like it exactly, and I don't think it quite hit the right notes, but it is fascinating to think on.
I was initially taken aback by how cutthroat the Harfoots were, but then it dawned on me, that the series is trying to establish Hobbit society's tendency to actively discourage, shun and ostracise deviation from the norm.
I read them as a sort of allegory for the type of small town/community that appears very idyllic and welcoming as long as you keep to the very narrow-minded and prescriptive rule set. Nori's mum was trying to keep her in her place by saying "do you think you're special?"
Maybe the show is going for a worldly folk vs insular folk dichotomy. Because in Bronwyn's town, I got a similar vibe to the Harfoots where people were very narrow-minded and judging Bronwyn for associating with Arondir and not sharing their hostility to him like the rest of the town.
Seems like a city people are kind but not nice (Galadriel and the Elves) and country people are nice but not kind (the Harfoots) sort of dichotomy 🤷🏾♀️
If you have to try that hard to make sense of it there's something off. I'm 100% sure Tolkien would never have written hobbits like that. Hobbits are country folk in the south of England really. They are all about the feeling of home, green meadows, logs on the fire and hearty feasts. An idealized view of the southern shires of England.
@@blow-by-blow-trumpet But, the glimpses of Hobbit society we get in 'The Hobbit' and 'Lord of the Rings' show the folks in Hobbiton as being very close-minded and looking down on characters like Bilbo and Frodo for going against the rules and wandering off to have adventures.
@@blow-by-blow-trumpet but how did the hobbits even get to that point? Societies and cultures are ever changing. There’s no way the hobbits in RoP could have exactly the same culture and mindset as the hobbits in lotr.
@@WannabeDancer72 That is true, but this just jars with me. The closed-mindedness you get from the books is exactly the same attitude you'd have witnessed in the English shires (and still do sometimes) yet there is evidence of our ancestors caring for their sick in remains over 40, 000 years old. It just doesn't ring true and doesn't feel like hobbits.
@@markbasin3053 True. But all civilized societies care for their sick. It's a necessity evidenced by the evolution of empathy. Evidence of re-setting of broken bones had been found in human fossils 40, 000 years old. It's a really bad choice on the part of the writers and rubs badly with me.
Overall, I also feel it's lacking depth, and that sense of heightened, mythic reality that is almost uniquely Tolkien. The Jackson films managed to capture that, but Rings of Power hasn't so far.
I still don't really understand what they're trying to go for with Galadriel, but her walking into the Numenorean court in a sea-stained dress, her infamous hair a shambles with not a scrap of shame and declaring her whole status honestly felt peak out-of-touch Elven arrogance, and that really worked for me. For me, it's ok for her to lack tact at this point in history...she loses a political showdown with Celebrimbor, after all.
I think the Harfoots having a social punishment system where transgressors have to walk in back tracks with what we know of the early "hobbits". Smeagol's people practiced exile as a form of punishment. This isn't that different, a little less strict even, and Nori had committed a transgression. Walking in back was the punishment for that, not because her father was wounded.
She was one of the first people to see the the two trees..... She should have a striking supernatural aura that even if she is looking like mess
@@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl She wasn't one of the first, since her family was there for who knows how long before she was born. But I agree, all the Elves should feel Not Human and they don't. It's one of the stylistic choices the show has made that I most disagree with. Even if we're getting more of an Elven perspective, they could easily still have that presence when interacting with mortal characters. I will likely be disappointed about this the whole show.
Arondir apologizing to the tree was the most Elvish thing any of them have done so far.
@@jojobookish9529 honestly many of the creative choices they made gave the wrong vibe
They’re really playing up her Feanorian side.
@@duyvtran1 True. And I'm all for showing us some of that Noldorin obsession and cracking the pop culture image of Elves as perfect, angelic Always Good beings....but I wish they still felt like Elves while doing it.
Saw the thumbnail and was immediately reminded of the Auralnauts hobbit video with the laser giants, senile Gandalf, and the dwarven rendition of Beat it.
I feel that having Halbrand be Sauron would be really strange, if that makes sense? Galadrial has been hunting Sauron for centuries and she apparently doesn’t notice that he’s literally standing right in front of her and talking to her.
I think we just haven’t met him yet. He’s sitting somewhere in the shadows pulling the strings.
Actually that is the writers' intent, to force Galadriel to be humbled as "character development". That her quest for revenge blinded her to what was hiding under her nose.
@@chriss3276 Naw. They're trying to red-herring Halbrand/Sauron so that they can go "Psych!" and reveal someone else later. The old mystery box switcheroo.
It kinda makes sense because Sauron is a deceiver... But I'd rather have Halbrand having his own arc as a character then being Sauron in disguise...
Turns out I was wrong and Galadrial really is just a big dummy why didn’t recognize Sauron, the man that she has been hunting down for centuries standing right in front of her.
And it gets even dumber. She doesn’t realize it because of some suspicious behavior of Halbrand, she realizes because the line of kings that SHE assumed he was from was actually broken. When he literally told her that he wasn’t the king and she insisted that he was because it was useful to her political goals. Wonderful. Love that for us.
@@Blueeyesthewarrior Yep. And the glorious part is that now Sauron is apparently just a white male incel who got rejected by a girlboss and so he rage quits and starts blowing shit up. xD
I liked the part where Galadriel didn’t get executed for threatening the life of the queen openly
Edit: this was also pointed out to me at work. Why tf did Sauron put his mark on galadriels brother? Like everyone’s seen it by now right? Is everyone just stupid and or didn’t bother to just look at a map.
That was an... interesting choice. Then again, if the elves ever discovered Numenor had executed one of their war heroes, that would be bad. I imagine the Valar wouldn't approve either.
@@TheSuperRatt true but I’m having a hard time determining from her behavior there why anyone would want her. Seriously she was straight up a petulant child
And guarantee they get absolutely fucked up by the elves? Yeah I think it was more of a power move from Galadriel. She knew there wasn't shit they could do.
@@RoccoGuyBoiThing
How would the Elves even know? They believe that Galadriel is in Valinor at that point, not in Numenor.
@@RolfeSenpai Well, the Numenoreans don't know that. She introduces herself as royalty and an important leader of the elves.
I am loving the series, but I do agree with you about THE DEPTH in relation to the "homage to the sea" and the Harfoots' simple chant. 😊😊 Thanks for the review!
in my opinion, tolkiens poetry and songs are well reflected in Clamavi de Profundis'es reenactments of those songs.
agreed!
I really like the "brutal" way of the Harfoots and it fits really well. Its the time before the Third Age. Hobbits had dark sides too, and I think that explores that a bit.
No, they didn't. Hobbits didn't even enter into the 2nd age. It's all corporate manufacturing.
@@nathanmorgan3647 well, they did exist in the SA, but did not do anything noteworthy, like for example greeting Gandalf when arriving in Middle Earth. Funny enough, Cirdan is discribed as greeting the wizards when arriving at the Grey Havens, so the arrival of the Istari WAS noteworthy
@@belegur8108 yep so basically the opposite of this steaming pile of travesty
@@nathanmorgan3647 no arguement from me here :)
The part that bothers me the most about this show is how over cinematic they are making it. Rather than connecting with the characters its a lot of dramatic and slow mo shots. Feels uncanny.
I felt like Sauron behaved too Saurony this episode.
It's Saurin' time
I agree that feels like something is mising. I'm enjoying, the show is gorgeous, the actors are good and compeling, but there's something that's not quite there. A feeling of things still being set up and introduced in a way that I don't feel that I know what's most of the character deals and when I do, like Galadriel, I feel like it's a little too basic. I'm having fun and never bored watching it, but if someone askes me "What's this show about?" I don't know if I have a satisfying answer. I really liked the look of Numenor and all the Orc camp stuff was fun, but I don't enjoy the Harfoots
The lore is off lol, and I suspect the qualitt of the writers is average, at best.
I know what's missing---a story.
A highly decorated treasure box that is empty.
The people don't feel like people...
I agree with you idea of Halbrand being a sort of inverse Aragorn and ultimately failing, but I really like another theory I saw that builds on that where he fails by taking one of the rings and becoming one of the nine ringwraiths. If he is indeed a king, that checks out. I’m sure there’s lore I don’t know about who the wraiths are, but it’s cool with me if that’s changed for the adaptation. I think it would make for a great tragic storyline - especially if they take their time and make him super likeable for multiple seasons only to twist the knife and have him fall later in the show.
I like Daniel Greene’s theory that Halbrand is Angmar.
@@momomomocensoredbyyoutube9085 oh please dont
I really appreciate the depth of the commentary, you definitely know Tolkien’s works in and out. But also because of that, I think it’s hard to understand how confusing and contrived a lot of the series feels for a viewer that mainly knows the main trilogy of books, and not really by heart either.
If they spent so much money on the series, I wish they spent more time on developing these undertones, so we can all better appreciate it.
17:00 I remember somebody saying "the first sign of civilization is a healed femur".
I doubt Halbran will end up being Sauron, since it would make no sense for him to be in the middle of the sea when he meets Galadriel. Also, I doubt Galadriel would not sense his presence, or even start catching feels with Sauron. I feel like a more likely explanation for his dark moments and overall presence is that he's going to become the Witch King, but who knows.
You forget (or did not know) Sauron's plan was to ensnare the Elves and use their innate power for his purposes. Being a Maia he could walk unseen and spy on the Elves. Learning that Galadriel was so powerful, she would be a prime target for his seduction (not that kind, I mean tricking her to his service). This show intends to use it as a means of humbling Galadriel for character development, that so blinded by a quest for revenge, she did not see what was hiding right in front of her. So he was in the ocean "stalking her". Plus you have to remember this show's Galadriel is nothing like Tolkien's. Tolkien's Galadriel was already married and had an adult child by this time point so while she would have sensed Sauron, Amazon Galadriel wouldn't.
Numenor was honestly a huge let down for me. There are still morsels of decency and even greatness in the show, and the pacing seems more confident this time around, but… man, I am REALLY disliking a lot of the decisions here. Even long since having divorced myself from this being an ‘adaptation’, and trying to see it as it’s own thing, Galadriel is a horrible primary protagonist and there aren’t enough good supporting characters to make me say, “This is worth it.” We’ll see next week..
I liked Numenor a lot, yes it was not as good as it could have been, but one of the best parts so far. I also have distanced myself from expecting faithfulness to the source material, I interpret this as "loosely based on Tolkien's writing", and it has made the show more enjoyable.
Agreed that Galadriel has been an awful protagonist and her adaptation has been abysmal, I dont anyone is liking her, neither casuals nor hardcore fans.
So far, above average show, great visuals and soundtrack, subpar writing.
@@aesir1ases64 Fair enough. When it comes to Numenor, I suppose it’s always been one of my favorite aspects of the previous ages prior to Lord of the Rings, and despite how little actual focus it’s given in The Silmarillion and elsewhere, I always felt as though it easily leant itself to a live action adaptation. Moreso than other elements in the second age, and especially moreso than events in the first age. I had… far too high hopes, I suppose. In another show, called something else, I probably wouldn’t have minded in the least.
We definitely agree on the soundtrack and visuals! Both are phenomenal! The writing, however, leaves much to be desired… particularly with its leads… ugh. Watching this show really does make me feel like “a tale of two cities” internally. I love parts, hate others, and when they cancel out, I’m largely left with indifference.
@@ManSeekingMeaning personally I really liked this interpretation of Numenor but I agree that Galadriels character is just horrible.
I personally hate the Harfoots more than anything in this show. I'm Irish so I generally just hate Irish accents in television. But these have to be some of the worst. An entire group of people, none of whom are Irish, all doing terrible Irish accents just hurt my soul to the point that I just slipped all their scenes so it didn't completely ruin the entire show for me.
Got to say, you are reading (npi) way more into the show than is actually there, based on your knowledge of the source material. For example, describing Numinor as at the height of its power. It's not in the show- they're completely isolated
You hit exactly on what I've been feeling about 'shallow writing'. Those moments have just grated on me. Hopefully they'll reduce over time. Halbrand? My gut at the minute is he'll turn to evil and become one of the Nazgul, maybe the witch king
I truly disliked the harfoots having a tradition of ABANDONING VULNERABLE PEOPLE BEHIND and MOCKING THE PEOPLE THEY LEFT BEHIND. Also Galadriel being a gate keeping gaslighting girlboss is boring as fuck. I don’t understand why writers keep thinking that a strong female character has to be like a man, like, have they ever heard of sailor moon or Elle woods?
it's typically written BY men, following corporate checklists, and pandering for social media head pats... now that the jeff epps seem to have gone into hiding.
usually, the characters that we connect to were created by someone or a team who were creative, passionate, and believed.
here, it's all just a job. it's all politics. they take things people love and then repackage it to service THEIR EGO.
they repurpose. they hijack.
they do not care about the story or characters, let alone actually pioneering progressive ideals or honoring the source material.
... the people who defend this show... i can understand.
their bar for quality... is not very high. and they are very forgiving. and they just want to have a good time with something that they already like. or is popular.
but that is basically what this entire show is.
plastic. this is very expensive plastic. which they hope you will pay money for.
dina? the dwarf princess or queen, and elendil? isildur's dad? have been the only highlights so far.
their characters and acting totally steal the scenes.
galadriel? morfyyd clark, i think? people praised her other work. so i checked it out.
it's a psychological horror movie. where she plays a creep who is manipulating her patients but is socially inept.
i'm sure she's a nice person, but that and her interviews pretty much spell it out.
she is absolutely miscast.
you can tell she is forcing it, and it contrasts so much when she has scenes with elendil?
one has great acting and larger than life charisma, the other is forcing themselves to the point this would be better as a power ranger or cw show.
and she's kind of grating. i don't want to use the word unlikable, because even unlikable characters and actors can be great and fun to watch... but she makes me want to turn the show off.
and her face... she looks like a drug addict more often than not. on top of forced acting, unlikable personality, and a boring character presence in both scenes and plot....
i don't blame you for complaining.
she's not sailor moon, and as simple as those characters all are, they get the job done in getting the audience invested.
she's not storm, jean grey, kitty pride, or rogue from x men.
she's not toph, katara, azula, or mei ling from avatar.
she's not vi, caitlyn, jinx, or mel from arcane.
she's not princess leia, mara skywalker from the extended universe lore, or cara dune.
there are SO MANY FEMALE HEROES. and, yeah, they DO get sexualized, fridged, or wait for the male hero to save them sometimes.
and other times, they are the ones saving everyone else.
they could be female, colored, amd lgbt, and we still love amd respect them as heroes... that we can look up to. heroes that speak to us, akd maybe we can try to be brave like them.
galadriel? elrond? halbrand? nori? i do not want to keep watching.
maybe they all get better. maybe the story gets better.
but, right now, it's a joke. complete with the punch line of corporate plastic, hollow virtue signaling, and incredibly bad writing.
and morfyyd clark, poor lady, but she's dragging a show that is already sinking.
tldr: "the sea is always right", and i doubt this show will succeed. it's a billion dollar cw show. people will lose interest, and they will have only tuemselves to blame.
but they won't. they'll keep complaining thst everyone criticizing this show are racists, sexists, and intolerant if lgbt.
let this show fail. it's their problem. not ours.
Not only is the modern strong woman always written “as a man”, but it’s always the most annoying type of man!
If Galadriel was a male character, everybody and their mommas would be writing thought pieces about her toxic masculinity.
Any man that acted like her would promptly get his teeth smashed in.
”it lost the depth I wish it had” u speak this line like with such rhythm 🎵
It carries the aesthetic but the heart and soul is missing.
In the words of Tolkien's friend, CS Lewis, "Men without chests"
The dialogue between the guards was "I did it last time !" "No that was at dawn !". Which makes more sense than "at dog" :P
As I understood it, the Brandyfoots were going to get help/be in a good spot in the caravan UNTIL everything came out about Nori hiding the stranger and helping them despite the guidance to keep in line. It was more a punishment for her than for her father's injury.
I really enjoyed this video. I think from now on, everytime I watch the RoP I am going to remember Tim doing his accents bit.
While the moment when Galadriel explains the history of Numenor and its people to Halbrand is in theory the kind of expositional dialogue that feels more natural, the scene in the show is written so thinly that it feels like a rehearsed interview. None of Halbrand's questions seem to follow his own motivations and just feel like launch pads for Galadriel's next exposition dump. It was a very boring, unmotivated way to write in necessary context and was one of the more egregious moments that took me out of the first three episodes.
I never thought that it was that bad, though felt clunky on the first watch, on the 2nd felt more natural, but yeah they could have done that a little better, but what takes me off is Galadriel behavior and the harfoots plotline lol
I like the idea that Halbrand is the traitor king who Aragorn calls out with the Dead Army in the mountains.
i don't think, they will go that way. The King of the undead is only a side character in LotR, Halbrand has a far greater role here in the show, to not use him as one of the main antagonists.
Sauron or one of the Nazguls, if the latter, then he also will be Theo's father... thats where my money is
At this point looks like Sauron is two hardfoots in a platemail
Sorry, I couldn't find the reviews for the Episodes 1 and 2. Do they exist? Please advise.
I cried when they pulled up to the city finally have a place that can deliver a big army to a battle
Interesting to hear Tim's thoughts on this. I was so hyped when it was first announced. I'm not against it now, but I don't think I'm excited anymore? Idk weird
I’m just kind of ambivalent to it. There’s so little of Tolkien’s actual lore here that it barely feels like it’s even in his universe.
I am feeling completely Meh, i don't hate it, but i don't like it. i like nori tho
@@killgriffinnow it has its names and places, the rest not so much. If you see it as a "loosely based on tolkien" adaptation, it gets better.
I totally understand you in regards to the lack of depth. Apart from the Hobbits and maybe with Dwarfs section the story still feels very one dimensional and it is boring. Everything looks and sounds amazing, the middle earth is still fascinating but it's missing in the story aspect. We are 3 hours into this show this is longer than most movies, sure it's a tv show it can have slower pace but this is way too slow.
Don’t know what this says about me, but I’m grooving on the show just as it is. Maybe it’s just the beautiful cinematography and the meandering pace that puts me in a comfort zone mood. Maybe after trying and giving up on GoT, I’m just happy for a Tolkien-eque show that doesn’t give me anxiety.
I'm not a fan but am happy for you
Totally agree with your last statement, I'm truly enjoying it so far, but I wish there was more depth to it. Also I'd really enjoy your theory about Halbrand and if he was Sauron I think that would be a dealbreaker for me, just like if The Stranger happens to be Gandalf and not a blue wizard.
It's obvious Nori is Sauron. She's a menace!
I agree completely with what you said at the end. There are moments that give me hope, that show me they do understand the lore and themes of Tolkien’s world… and then there are moments that make we want to pull my hair out. I’m gonna keep watching it because I can see the potential. I keep on saying that, that I see “potential”. But at a certain point they have to turn potential into reality. They have all the pieces for a good show, but they haven’t proven they can put them together yet.
I appreciate the idea that Miriel might actually be elf-friend, but knows that faction is out of power, so is acting as best as she can to keep the country together while Pharazon is fucking shit up. That was cool honestly. But the thing that bothers me about the harfoot (and Gandalf), and Halbrand (who I have ***so much fear*** that the crest is the bird/winged earendil/gondorian thing) is that they are making the story too small and narrow. Dwarven lifespans seem too compressed (20 years isn't nothing, but we are told they live into the many hundreds if not slain by foe. Even in the 3rd Age 250 doesn't seem too uncommon, and I want to say somewhere we have examples besides Durin Deathless that they lived 500+ years). Why is Celebrimbor needing to have his forge built in a single season!?! Why is it only in the last 20 years Moria has expanded (no, neither Mithril, nor rings or power, nor simaril would be a sufficient explanation)? They are somehow managing to make Middle Earth seem small. The same way that the disney sequels screwed things up by relying way too much on existing characters. Rey doesn't need to be related to someone important ffs. The Skywalkers don't need to be the only family of relevance in the galaxy.
I will also say as impetuous and silly as Galadriel is during most of this episode (and that horseback riding....), the actress has a wonderful mastery of fiery speech and facial expressions. Her lines holding contempt for the explanations of the works of the Valar by men is amazing. Now why she feels that the Edain owe the elves a debt? That I don't understand. Certainly Finrond never felt that way about men. Famously so. Is it possible Galadriel blames Beren/Men for her brother's death a bit? Maybe, but that would be an explanation worth exploring
"Just a little bit shallow?"...for myself, I'm not watching the "show" but it has been interesting to see everyone's reactions to it....and their rationalizations for things...I will be enjoying the long ride down with you all, but it pains me greatly how Amazon wasted an opportunity and how Tolkien's descendants' greed enabled it.
Tim's impression of Halbrand saying he'd be the best smith was just so... Trump xD
Really enjoying your perspective on this.
Interesting thoughts, especially on those two moments you pointed out of shallow sounding dialogue. I kinda just went with it, but you explained it well that I can see why one would see it that way.
Largo and Nori.. feel oddly odd among the Harfoots, and I think that’s intentional, but it may be something I’m just hoping. I think Nori and Largo’s hearts and curiosity may play more into the passing down of knowledge/characteristics to the Hobbits more than the rest of the Harfoots.
I’m fully on Adar being Sauron. I can’t see the orcs showing anyone else that reverence. I know the smithing seems a big nod for Halbrand, but..I kinda am seeing it as him just running away. He’s on the sea for who knows what reason, and imo he wants to join the smithy so he doesn’t have to go back to the Southlands for whatever dark destiny awaits him. Which i believe he will ultimately fail at and become one of the 9.
Agreed on Arondir’s prison stuff though. And an added element to Arondir finally deciding to cut the tree, and his “forgive me”..after they told us in ep 1 that he was a “grower” before everything, with his confusion, almost anger(?), at Bronwyne’s “we crush the petals” with those flowers, it was a nice detail for me.
Maybe it’s just..me not having read the Silmarillion mixed with knowing they can’t use it anyway, but I’ve kinda been enjoying Galadriel and wonder what will happen that will lead her to how she is when we see her in Fellowship of the Ring.
But I wonder how much some of the…lack of depth some may feel can kinda stem from the 5 season situation, as much as that situation will also help. If they’ve stretched some of these arcs out more due to that 5 season contract, they’ll be more of a slow burn or take time to get traction, and maybe that impacted the way characters are presented in these early episodes? Idk, but I can see that being a potential con of having all 5 seasons signed off on?
Counterpoint on the Harfoot thing: I think this could be an interesting and even good attempt by the showrunners to explain the Hobbit's anti-adventurous and closed-in sentiments in the third age.
They made a big deal of sticking together and not leaving anyone behind... 3 episodes in they did leave a whole family behind.
Concerning the Harfoots, and they 'brutality'. I've thought about how they've presented themselves to the outside world, I think it makes sense from a worldbuilding perspective to leave behind stragglers. So here goes my theory:
So, in the first episode, we're introduced to them as a small species that hides whenever they could potentially come in contact with the world of the big folk. Their whole encampment, clothing & accessoires are set up to the ability of blending in. Even the carts and their head adornments, as they migrate, are decorated to appear like grassland that waves in the wind. But to a species so hellbent on blending in, the worst thing that could happen is a straggler that is struggeling. That sort of 'breaks' the rythm the others have set in order to blend it. It would attract unwanted eyes, both humanoid and not. So in that sense, anyone who cannot keep up endangers the rest of the group. Also, in the example of Nori and her family, it is mentioned by Marigold that she fears they're going to be left behind in ep 2. I took that as she feared of being forbidden to join the caravan at all, instead of being punished to join at the back. That they are allowed to join at all, could be an act of mercy, but only if they can keep up. The carts are as big as the family that needs to live in it (hence why poppy's cart is smaller) so it would be hard for anyone to lend a hand to help another cart when your own is heavy enough as it is. It would only increase the chances of both carts not making it, instead of just the one.
On top of that, something that I think the writers have down very well with the worldbuilding of the harfoots, it the amount of 'sayings' they have. "Lend us a foot' (instead of a hand) comes to mind, but also the one Poppy mentions to Malva 'mind your own fire' (don't meddle in other's business). The last one stood out to me that even thought they are a tightknit community, they do have a saying that could be translated to 'mind yourself, first'.
I don't hate it, it shows maybe not the brutality of the Harfoots, but rather how difficult it is to ensure a whole group of small beings can survive in a world that is quite literally too big for them.
I haven't made it past the second episode for this reason: It's striking how the different story lines fall flat, while others are okay but not spectacular. I can name only three or four characters that so far have taken the crap writing they were given and made it work: Arondir, Nori, Prince and Princess Durin, and that's about all.
Where is the story? Why is Galadriel behaving like an wooden post one minute, and a bloodthirsty shrew the next? Meteor man? Really? The entirety of the Silmarillion, and this is it? I've fallen in mud puddles deeper than this.
Don't get me wrong. I love the visuals. Khazad Dum was gorgeous. It just can't keep me interested when the writing goes from okay to outright bad. I quit caring about Galadriel when she jumped off the boat in the middle of the ocean. I kept hoping something would swallow her and spit her back out with a little more common sense. From what I've read here in the comments that didn't happen.
I think I'd rather enjoy your reviews of this dumpster fire than sit through it myself.
Right on. Thanks for sharing.
I am glad you addressed that about how the production spends too much time on the scenic shoots and the fantastical music. I was going to point that out too. It feels like “fan service” or “look, we picked all these beautiful locations” and “we can sound just like the Lord of the Rings movies”, and I still don’t know what’s going on, and I don’t feel like I have a reason to care for the characters because they feel… out of character?? But that could just be because I didn’t read the Silmarillion or Tolkien’s other works besides The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings… but yes. The story lines for me don’t feel relevant to one another and it feels choppy and flat. But I’ll still watch it only because I want to see if it gets better. 😶
Found your second channel, Big Tim! Subscribed!
The show also suffers from the writers being incompetent in their craft and primarily activists, not artists.
I thought this was a weaker episode compared to the first two. It felt less cinematic, which makes sense since the director is a television director while the first worked on movies. The scene with Galadriel on the horse felt like the director indulging in an expensive toy (apparently the camera they used is quite high tech), which is a shame because I like the emotional core of that idea. It touches back on the elves connection with nature and animals, the execution just lands in saccharine territory. This episode is also hard to follow if you're not familiar with Tolkein's works. The warg had a neat design but the animation and set integration seemed off, especially when it was first introduced in the tunnel. Maybe they blew all their budget for the episode on Numenor and had to take some shortcuts, lol.
I like most of the characters so far, especially Nori and Arondir and Elrond, but I'm also sort of apprehensive about the direction they're taking Galadriel. If they push a romantic attraction with Halbrand, especially if he's Sauron (I hope this isn't the case, I'd much rather he be King of the Dead/Witch King/Nazgul), I'll be irritated. I don't see her as juvenile, however. Just very proud and driven by obsession.
"The sea is always right" actually works for me. It's both a military mantra and three iambs--something the showrunners stressed was giving specific meter to different races. Plus, I have a theory that it's a corruption of an older saying that incorporated the name of the Valar of the sea, Ulmo. They stripped away the original meaning and left something more watered down (pun unintended) in the same way that they've left a statue of what is likely Uinen to rot in Halbrand's jail cell. Galadriel even ends the episode talking about how humans are 'afraid to name them'. It's possible they can't say these Valar’s names due to rights issues, but they were able to mention Aule in the last episode, so perhaps they can get an okay from the estate on this matter.
I did not like the harfoot's chant either. Their plotline was a favorite of mine in the first two episodes, so I wasn't super crazy about the darker turn here. However, after listening to Dr. Corey Olson discuss them in his recent video on Rings and Realms, I've come around to it a little more.
Something you didn't mention is that Adar means father. This episode, and really the show overall, has put quite a lot of emphasis on familial relations. We see it between Nori and her father and stepmother, Bronwyn and Theo (and maybe Halbrand?), Elendil and his kids, Durin and his children. It's also interesting because in Judeo-Christianity, God is often referred to as the Father. Characters like Galadriel and the people of Numenor have turned away from the gods in their pride, and that will only lead to tragedy.
My far-flung theory is that Arondir will be transformed into an orc or a corrupted elf of some kind. I think corruption is central theme of this season and we'll see quite a few characters fall as a result.
I haven't read the Silmarillion, and honestly, I love everything you explain about Numenor. I just didn't get all that from watching the show. I got that they're rich and arrogant - that's mostly it. I wish the show worked in better, more interesting writing that ties in the lore, worldbuilding, and characters better.
Omg the accent change was on point 👌🏽
I really think not only will Halbrand fail in fighting Sauron, but fail by falling himself. Specifically, by being one of the kings of men Sauron gifts one of the 9 rings to. We'll get to see him go from a flawed but determined and relatable underdog reluctant to rule, to a mighty yet power hungry ruler, before finally fading into the wraith world and becoming a nazgûl, perhaps even the Witch King himself.
I think one of the biggest problems with The Rings of Power is that it’s not for anybody. Non-Tolkien-fans can’t get the proper intended enjoyment out of it because without having read the Silmarillion there’s simply too much necessary context that they don’t have and which the show cannot reasonably give without an entire prequel season. So the show is for fans of Tolkien then, right? But so much has been changed that fans can’t help but feel like the writers didn’t understand what they were adapting. This is especially true for the seeming suggestion that the dwarves of Khazad-Dum might have found a silmaril. It's dangerous ground to tread on because it means that the writers either didn’t read the Silmarillion or somehow missed the entire point of it. The show has isolated any potential fans from enjoying this world and it’s disappointed those who are already fans by showing a lack of understanding.
My prediction is that Celebrimbor is Sauron...dude has a reputation as an unparalleled smith, is having folks build a giant forge to make something special, and he comes across as arrogant, confident, and somewhat scheming.
With the whole the sea is always right chant. I think have the recruits reply with with something along the lines so we listen.
I don't think we've met Sauron. I think Sauron is hanging out in the Numenorian palace, and at some point, Galadriel's gonna be all, "We must sail for Middle Earth where Sauron is raising a new army!" and the Numenorians will scoff and say, "Sauron isn't raising an army in Middle Earth," and Galadriel will be all, "How can you be sure?" and Sauron himself will reply, "Because Sauron is right here."
its saurony time
Really enjoying the reviews for Rings of the Lord of Power of Rings and HOTD
I thought it was an improvement to what the first two episodes were, it has kept me interested to see more of the show, but it also took another hour to get through. Each episode has been an hour, and in the course of those 3 hours, it does feel like we are only now just beginning to have interesting stories take place. Obviously they are expanding on the things set up in those first two episodes, I quite liked that mark of Sauron being relieved to actually be a map, I liked seeing that even if you could escape from prison, it's like no man's land, just too much of a distance to tread for safety, getting the stranger more involved with the rest of the Harfoots in general and not just Nori, but it also took forever to get to there. The show is for sure a slow burn, but not in the best of ways, its pacing takes that slow burn and it's like waiting for water to boil when you've only got the burner at its lowest setting. Something is sure to happen eventually, but you're not going to be enjoying your meal anytime soon either.
10:39 -- this is my exact issue
The Harfoot customs are actually surprisingly realistic, well done by the writers. That's what happens in real normadic hunter-getherer cultures. For example, Native Americans in the Great Plains would leave their elderly behind once they couldn't participate in their migrations any more. Inuit would carry their eldery out into the snow.
Caring for the very old is a luxury of settled cultures, not surprising that the audience has a hard time grasping this. So much for "close-nit communities that help each other". The mantra of the Harfoots is: "Nobody walks alone - or else you die."
I don't see how it's odd. The harfoots moving as a unit which can't support the weak isn't strange at all. It's what makes the most sense for a nomadic pre hobbit society living in almost utter secrecy.
They survive off the natural world, hobbits have agriculture. They live among the lands of the big ones hidden away, while hobbits patrol & keep their lands to themselves directly.
Harfoots move, Hobbits settle. The Harfoots aren't Hobbits, they're Harfoots, like rabbits, fleeing, burrowing, hiding, & if need be abandoning a discovered burrow(weakened family) for the overall survival.
Their need for mobility & secrecy makes sense but as the world expands & populations of big ones grow, it's going to make a lot of sense that the Harfoots will find their way of life less sustainable.
If I had to guess, there'd be a season that doesn't sustain them enough to migrate, or is brutal enough that too many of them would be left behind. They'll have to adjust, discover husbandry & by proxy agriculture.
Staying one season's turn will begat a not small demographic who simply don't see why they have to migrate the next. They settle, then the next cycle the others return per usual & stop for a season. Each time fewer leave, they've found unforseen safety in being settled.
They become hobbits. It makes far more sense than the idea Hobbits were just always hobbit like, being so small they undoubtedly would have started alike to the rabbits they're implied to represent.
So far my theory is Halbrand will be the "father of" the Haradrim (they're the folks who ride the Oliphants in lotr). I agree in thinking he will fail where Aragorn had succeeded, and his people will be the Haradrim whereas Aragorn's people were those of Gondor.
I don't what to think of the series so far. The first two episodes were ok for me but in the third one, I had the sudden realisation that all of the time period of the Second Age happens in the span of the series. For example (I dont remember the details of Numenor in the books), it felt like the numenoreans are already corrupted by Sauron, when he's not even here yet. Or, Ar-Pharazon is not supposed to be born yet, let alone Isildur. And yet, they are in the shown before the rings of power are even forged.
I don't necessarily mind creative liberties when adapting a book but having the 3000 years history of the books happening at the same time is quite jarring.
Also, I really hope the Stranger is not Gandalf. Because, first, that's too on the nose and also because he seems to be a bit too grim for that. He would fit Anatar, even though, I don't know why Anatar would have lost his memory.
Very interesting breakdown - still haven't seen the series, but I'm always curious about your thoughts on the latest episode. Also, great seeing your cute co-host.
I think they improved on episode but still early to give my opinion on specific things. One thing it irks me is that Galadriel is treated as a regular elf which I question a lot. I think surprisingly that the hobbits are my by far my favorite storyline, yes there are problems but I think their much more interesting. At the end of the episode I was more intrigued. I agree that they have done amazing work of the setting of Númenor, as Tolkien said it was inspired by Atlantis which I would imagine to have similar Greek and Egyptian feel to it.
The hobbits leaving behind the ones who cannot follow would make sense in one condition : if they were desperately fleeing an enemy that's just on their tail. However, it's not compatible with the lifestyle displayed for the first 2 and half episodes.
5:50 Well done on the 3 accents! :D
Aa someone who is not too familiar with everything lotr. What ecactly are the south lands? Like the gondor regions or more towards harad?
Thanks in advance for anyone who can explain it :)
The Hairfoots have this "tribal" lifestyle... I think that the "brutality" of leaving people behind is basically their way of punishment... they would have helped (in this case, they would have let Noris father walk at the front and therefore it would have been easy to assist him and make sure he doesn't fall behind) but because Nori betrayed the trust of the collective, she and her family are being punished. They did not yet get excommunicated, but they did get shunned and isolated.
Hey Tim, who do you think the stranger is? I've read the books only once, but never got through the Silmarilion. I'd really like to see Tom Bombadil on screen as he is one of my favorite. Could the stranger be him?
Great video man, hope you review all episodes because you can comment on the lore but also on the quality of the show as a series by itself. Agreed with pretty much all your takes on the episode and the show, it was the best of the three because mainly of Numenor, though I feel like Im enjoying the Harfoots less than you (even though this episode they werent as annoying as the previous two), and yes, I definetely agree that the show seems shallow so far, at least when you compare with Tolkien's work and PJ previous adaptations. I dont think its trash like some say, but far from great like others do, so far its an above average show (granted mainly because of the visuals and the soundtrack).
I have been watching a lot of lore videos and rereading the books, and I think the show is more enjoyable if you look at it as a loosely adaptation of Tolkien's writings, otherwise you will get pretty angry and annoyed with all the changes.
They need to make main characters like Galadriel and Gil-Galad more charismatic, but so far Elendil, Elrond and Durin and even Nori have been decent characters to follow and can carry the show. I also personally liked a lot the character of Arondir, though I heard some felt him bland.
Finally, the southland plot is one that has a very nice potential to be great in this show, since we all wanted Amazon to adapt some of the more mysterious event that happened in the eastern and southern Middle earth, I think Halbrand can have a great arc if he does exactly as you said, fails where Aragorn succeds, and even becomes a Nazgul at the end, that could be pretty amazing, if he is Sauron it will be very deflating lol, Galadriel should and would know better.
I think an extension of the 'First Chapter Problem' applies especially to adaptations which have changed things - namely you don't yet know where they're going with things, and everyone is second guessing or comparing ot the original. THere's plenty of adaptations where, once you're halfway in you can see where they're taking the story and appreciate it, but in the opening people are much more likely to be 'well that bit is different so EVERYTHING IS WRONG'
A clever link that some people are pointing out is that Halbrand could be Theo’s father and that there is some link with the dark blade (Halbrands heirloom maybe). Continuing with this theory comes the idea that Theo could be corrupted by the blade and become the Witch King. Food for thought I guess :)
Theo is 100% Arondir's son. They have similar skin tone, and his ears are conspicuously hidden by his hair. Not to mention the tension between Arondir and the mother.
For all we know, anyone in their village has the same chance of being Theos father as Halbrand. People conjure up this connection from very shallow evidence.
I thought the episode was by far the best, and I was actually really excited. Then I realized the episode was only like half over and we went to the Harfoots. However, the Arondir arc toward the end was worth the drag.