Especially when you consider that Peter Jackson's trilogy was made on less than $300 million ($375 million when adjusted for inflation), and is still light-years ahead of this thing. And it was made in the late 90s/early 2000s.
I'm constantly bewildered how the same people can write some parts competently, but then manage to fail at complete basics like setup an pay-off. For example, Halbrand told Galadriel that she can't just demand from others what she wants, but instead should identify their greatest fears and offer them a way to conquer them. Then, Halbrand freaks out and I expect Galadriel to apply that lesson, but no: She just tells him to suck it up and doesn't even ask why he is so afraid to go back. And even better: It just works.
What about The Boys ? It’s one of the best shows around. I think the lack of detailed source material leaves it to hacks to mess things up. Kind of like what happened with GOT once they had no more book material to pull from.
Yet they screwed up Elrond for me with the revealing the secret without revealing scene with Gil-galad, and bascially revealing the secret ore to Celebrimbor in the next scene.
He has a very humble, human, and lovely voice! Personally, I think 'untrained' singing that isn't perfect, but clearly emotive is often preferable! Rock it, my dude!
It’s oddly become a bit of a trope in film/show like this to have the training with regular weapons. it was brought up in the IGN “sword expert reacts to” video on Fellowship of the Ring when Boromir is teaching Merry and Pippin some basics. His thinking is it’s probably tied to the actors and crew being used to the far less dangerous prop weapons they use
I thought the origin of Mithril sounded like a Tolkien word salad thrown together at random like an improv skit. "Okay guys, here's what we're working with: Tree, Silmaril, Manwe, and Balrog. Okay, go!"
@Davon @James Burgess whether the story itself is true or not (I’m still leaning on it being false), Gil-galad at least seems to believe it could be true, grasping for hope
I just don't understand how this show can have some truly amazing scenes sprinkled here and there, and then some of the most cliché writing one could expect from a low budget fantasy series 🤷♀
@@JerzyMuller Truly amazing though? The singing, and design of Moria I can agree with, but is the quality of the Durin plot line in general "truly amazing?" It's good TV I agree, but is it really amazing?
I love seeing how different we experience this show. I was on the complete end of the spectrum of this one. Just couldn’t get into it aside from the plot lines I was already into.
Tbh the whole Mithril Storyline for why events are happening for the Lindon Elves and Dwarves of Khazad-dum...really lost me...more than likely yes, the Mithril will be used to forge the Rings of Power...but just that kind of story...coming from Elves...idk, even without the Canon Lore, they could have kept a more Tolkien-theme...but then again...they don't want to have a Tolkien-theme beyond certain moments. They using far more Peter Jackson LOTR Movie References than they are to the actual Lore from the books. Then we get plenty of 2022 themes in this show like with Durin about to say sh** during a conversation. Season 1 is what it is and wont get better as it's all set in stone but maybe they "could" learn lessons for future Seasons. They could recover from all this but I doubt they will.
I agree with you Mr Goblin. It's crazy how divided the opinions about this show are. For me, this episode backtracked what was accomplished in the last episode, and it just kept getting worse in terms of writing
@@harvain731 I like the idea (I think I heard it on Lore of the Rings channel) that it's a lie told to convince Elrond to betray the dwarves...since I also felt it lacked the layers you'd expect from the elves. I don't mind a few curses. I'm rereading The Hobbit and am realizing there are more than a few instances of phrases used in common parlance.
It's not "the worst story telling in the world", but does have the greatest gulf between what we would expect given the source material and investment compared to what they've made.
It's interesting that you're honestly the calmest RUclipsr talking about this show. You're not enraged, but still critical. It's been a while since I've watched/listened to your work, been trying to get back into it, and it's very relaxing.
The thing with Galadriel is that she seems cold as a fish to me. Sure she's an elf, and really old, and maybe more aloof because of that - but pairing that coldness with the fury she displays you get pretty unlikeable character. It's as if she's rolled her character and has given herself a -3 in charisma. And that makes it hard to relate to her, and root for her
At the moment, they seem to only have her character in rage mode from death of the brother. Going to have to write her be driven, but more well rounded character she was and will become, not purely in vengeance mode as that is all we've see so far.
i think that fits her character really well, galadriel was never a really "warm" person, but with her being a side character in lotr, it never was seen as a problem. but tbh her being too warm and charismatic wouldn't have fit the galadriel we know
@@wjzav1971 hopefully they wont scrap it. They definitely need to scrap a lot of their writers though. Honestly so far the critiques of the show are more entertaining than the show itself. This needs to be better than Mythica and so far its just not. And for all their woke nonsense there is a rumor galadriel was even paid less, considerably less than most of the other lead characters.
At this point Elrond and Durin's relationship is the only thing keeping me invested. I bought into their friendship right away, you can tell that they care about each other, and having Elrond not break his promise was really nice (I thought the writers would go the betrayal route and was pleasantly surprised).
I think the thing that confused me about the mithril-Silmaril story turn is that it doesn’t really make sense in the world Amazon has made. If they need the light of a silmaril to bathe all the elves, there is literally a star every night that is a silmaril, so, what’s up with that?
@@ItsButterBean1020 They don't need to reach It. In the LoTR, the light Galadriel gives Frodo is water with the light of the star mirrored in It. So they literally just need to take a bath in a place where the light of the star shines. Also, yeah, the Sillmaril thing was dumb and really unnecesary.
Also should point out the sun and moon come from the Two Trees. This should mean that their light is also the light of the trees. Side note, the trees are gone so how does going to Valinor help the elves? If the elves are fading should they not be feeling some kind of of side effects or symptoms? This story doesn’t make sense and if it is a deception (as some theorise) why doesn’t Elrond question it since their is no evidence?
I feel that the reason we can’t get behind Galadrial’s anger is because it is so CONSISTENTLY directed at bystanders. The first scene we get with her she is mistreating her subordinates to the point that they mutiny. Brutal military commander who pushes their soldiers too far is an antagonistic archetype. Maybe she’ll have a come to Jesus moment and realize that in her efforts to catch and destroy Sauron she has lost her morals and her kindness, but at this point in time I’m kind of doubtful of the writers’ ability to come up with such an idea, much less pull it off. These are the same folks that wrote about the elves taking our jobs.
That episode *was* her come to Jesus moment when she confessed that even her closest friend and comrades couldn't distinguish her from evil. That's a pretty brutal bit of self-assessment. Nor does she say that they were wrong, weak, blind, etc. However, people can be clear-sighted about their flaws and still fail to correct them. So it remains to be seen whether she will.
@@scambammer6102 I totally get that point. Personally, I like seeing how extreme she's become rather than being just told it (which would've been the case if earlier). One reviewer compared her to Carrie Mathison from Homeland and I thought that was a great comparison. Mathison was brilliant and usually right but she was so abrasive and extreme about it that she alienated allies and had even her dearest friends wondering if she'd gone too far. I found Mathison to be a compelling protagonist because she was right but also deeply flawed. But a lot found her completely unlikeable. I think the writers of Homeland meant to push the edge of likeability. Until this episode I wasn't sure if the writers were intentionally pushing G to the edge or if it was just writing without taking enough care. But after her revelation about being perceived as near-evil, I regained my confidence that she'd been written that way intentionally. It's actually a far riskier choice than I would've given Amazon credit for. She could've been just a wise mini-goddess floating around saying profound things and looking pretty.
You did great with the singing, it was clear and you held the tone well, and you actually committed rather than dissolving into shaky cringe and giving up, which would have been all too easy to do. You did well.
My main problem with the show so far is the writing. It has some really good scenes (mostly in the Elrond & Durin storyline) but for the most part, I don't feel like I'm watching a show set in Middle Earth, but some weird D&D campaign written by a DM that only has a bunch of names from a famous book that they haven't read. For example, mithril is now a generic magic rock that is instrumental to the survival of the elves instead of simply a really valuable and rare metal that, despite its value, isn't really all that important in the grand scheme of things. It's like they took something that most people would know about the setting and made it into an underwhelming generic MacGuffin. Which is REALLY weird, because there's quite a few easter eggs strewn through the scenes and the sets are quite pretty and detailed. It's visually impressive, the music is excellent, but the writing and the characters are just... like I said, a really amateurish D&D campaign.
I agree with this. They spent over 200 million dollars per episode and this is what they offer us? Just proves that money does not mean quality. They should have just given Tolkien to Disney. Even Disney would have better writers for this.
I think the main problem for me with the series is that we don't spend lot of time suffering with the characters. Like, Galadriel's suffering is mostly told to us. We didn't see her brother die, we just see the body. So it's harder to care. She's essentially the Punisher, from Marvel, so they should have taken a page from the Punisher, to make us feel like her, a need to end the people who do all this evil.
Nice. I think the scene where she breaks down with Halbrand says ‘I can’t stop!’ almost worked. She’s actually aware she pushed her team to the point of mutiny, was out on a boat to exile - albeit to heaven - and is essentially mad with grief, but we’re not on her side because it’s all been done in minimal flashback. If she’s going to be the Punisher or John Wick with a sword, it needs a little more intimacy in the trauma. The scenes we did have are shot with this delicacy, an ethereal detachment - it generates the wrong emotion in the viewer.
@@MustafaAlmosawi I thought that scene made Galdriel out to be the victim and not that she was aware her actions pushed her team away. She said it like we should feel sorry for her. But I agree with you otherwise.
@@taters9722 it doesn’t help that she’s a deeply unlikeable and uncharismatic character. What’s even more unbelievable is how awful Elven leadership training and mentorship must be to put this obsessed narcissist in charge of a team for HuNdReDs of years? I know there is this this idea that elves mature slowly, but this is Enron level of toxic management. They couldn’t have managed a mango stand with leadership like that. Heck, they’re little better than the do as I say or else I torture you or beat you leadership of Morgoth. Every time I try to think about this show it stabs me in the face with its layers of awfulness.
@@MustafaAlmosawi yeah her character is a mess. A lot of contrived elements to push drama. For example theres no reason why she should be this socially inept, except for to push the plot along. Just poor conveyance and bad storytelling
I agree with you. While I understand the venom behind the mithril origin story (it hit like PJ's "Arwen is dying" BS), but I can move past it so long as they don't drive it home as the truth and leave it as an apocryphal legend, possibly even made up by Sauron himself to sew conflict.
The "legend" idea would work if they weren't elves. To elves such past events are not history. Gil-Galad, Celebrimbor, Galadriel, and Elrond were all born before the Silmarils were lost. In some cases WAY before.
@@daviydviljoen9318 Tight-knit communities are often built on being brutal to those who don't adhere to the community norms. That's why we have the word "ostracize." The too-tall milkweed is plucked. The nail that sticks out is hammered down. Personally, I rather like that the harfoots are not angels. They have a hard edge, just like the hobbits in LOTR. Narrow-minded, provincial, judgey, etc. Counter-balances the courage and heroism of the main characters.
@@davon1650 you're wrong actually... In Caravans James Michener depicts a travelling Caravan community in Afghanistan, and they don't behave like the Harfoots in ROP. There's more problems with the show... Like the Elves being stupid, and not the near angelic beings Tolkien created.
Poppy’s song felt right on target for me too. (And I also loved Disa’s song.Gave me chillbumps.) The showrunners are doing a lot with several storylines which perhaps makes it more difficult for us to get very attached to characters too quickly. However, I do feel attached to Nori, Poppy, and Nori’s family, and even meteor man. I love Durin and Disa, and I enjoy and care about Elrond and his friendship with Durin. I am prepared to love Arondir but not quite there yet. I must admit I’m also quite intrigued by Aman (?) the corrupted elf leader of the Orc’s). That is a lot of “main”characters and storylines to feel invested in for any series, isn’t it? Positives; set design of Khazad-dum is fabulous. Visually the show over all is very beautiful, imo. Music/soundtrack/character themes are VERY impressive. Costuming by and large is great. I wonder if they have different writing teams for each storyline. If so, the team writing for Galadriel and Numenorians are the weakest link, in my opinion. HOWEVER, I appreciate that you give praise where it is due, and criticism where you see fit. MANY MANY artists had a hand in this production. To just write the whole thing off as garbage (as many are doing) seems waaay overkill. We have all seen films or shows where clearly not much thought or care has been given to the whole. That is not my experience with this. I think there is probably a small subset of writers and decision makers who are in over their head with this. But I think there are also a lot MORE artists /actors/ filmographers who really have really given a lot of time and care and attention to this project. I just wish people could “fine tune” the criticisms in hopes that changes will be made next season and enjoy what we can of having this world being brought to life for us. (I just feel for all the people who worked on this project who are ALL getting trashed by the social media influencers who are shredding this show as the “worst thing ever”. I expected a higher level of discourse from Tolkien / fantasy lovers. May we all hold on to our sense of human decency and our appreciation of intelligent discourse!!
And yeah, the hate has gone waay out of hand. To the point where it has somewhat soured my view of the Tolkien fandom. People can disagree with decisions made in the show, but that does not allow people to be dicks about it and say the most heinous of things.
Agreed also with everything you say. So far it's a ton of buildup, so I'm expecting a grand finale for the season like a reveal of Sauron or a big unexpected catastrophe, I hope that won't disappoint.
the workers got paid very well ... no need to be sorry for them, feel sorry for long time tolkien fans that has to endure this "adaptation" of something they love.
I loved Gil-Galad's speech about hope, even though convincing someone to break and oath didn't feel like a very Gil-Galad thing to do. Elrond's confession to Durin worked for me because it felt like Elrond was ashamed and trying to own up to the entirety of that shame without excuse.
Episode 4 ended with Ships being prepared to sail and humans in the Southland getting ready to defend the tower. Episode 5 ends exactly the same way. Also why would the Harfoots refer to their own legs as short in the song. They have normal length legs for hobbits.
"do we buy into galadriels anger?" No lol I feel like she needs to be a villain or a foil character that eventually gets a redemption and "matures" even though she's already had an eternity to do so.
It’s been a very interesting experience so far. I know the lore is in this awkward limbo in terms of accuracy in the show but for what it is worth it has been enjoyable. If there’s a credit I can give right now, it is that they are doing an interesting and (for me) a likable job of setting up certain things. Numenor doesn’t have its coastal empire yet, but it seems like that’s exactly what will get established by the end here. We also know there’s a certain temple that gets built to worship a baddie, and there is conveniently a very important characters daughter who is in the architecture guild and isn’t a big fan of anything relating to elves. While non canonical it would have a level of narrative impact that there will be a big split in the future royal family and painful decisions are going to be made.
This episode was truly horrendous. It takes some of the fundamental themes of Tolkien and shatters them into a million pieces. If there was even a rumour of a surviving Silmaril, the elves would immediately find a way to get back up there and get it. Mithril won’t stop the elves from leaving Middle Earth…it can’t slow the effects of time, only the Great Rings could do that. The Silmarils can only be rediscovered when the world is “mended” in Tolkien’s version of Ragnorok, which is alluded to by Tom Bombadil when he says “ ‘till the world is mended’. Gil-Galad isn’t going to try and turn Elrond into an Oathbreaker, he would know better than anyone (as a relative of Feanor) how important oaths are. The fanfic “Legolas by laura” is unironically more lore friendly than this. It doesn’t demolish the fundamental point of the series. I was prepared for this to be bad, but this was worse than my worst-case scenario.
For me Galadriel feels like an impulsive teenager, like why does she got herself on jail for being rude to the queen of numenor? As a being that had lived thousands of years she should've known better, also she is always angry that's why I think people find her annoying
When Galadriel started “teaching” the Numenorians, my partner and we’re cringing so hard.. it felt like such a cheesy “girlboss” moment and it was just so bad I wanted it to end
The worst part is that her fighting style as shown actually is very different than theirs. It looks like the “water dance” philosophy that Syrio teaches Arya in GoT, using flowing movements and making your opponent’s blows fall where you were, rather than staying where you are and meeting them with force. The choreography was there for a real lesson, but the writing ruins it.
Honestly the heal turn scene with Bronwen was so surprising I actually thought they were putting on a show for some reason like they were trying trick someone into believing they were planning to flip sides. But then I realized that made no sense.
While it felt sudden, the way I kinda saw it was that the huge chunk that left with Waldreg really deflated her hope. Add in the key and it being something to help enslave her people, their acenstral history and prejudice from the Elves, and now the large Orc host on the way, and suddenly falling to the enemy is just seeming more and more like fate.
For the most part, I'm enjoying it, it's giving me enough to want to know where it goes next. BUT... Galadriel is just not working! Every time she's on-screen I just want to sit her down and give her a massage to release the tension in her. Her jaw and muscles are always clenched and she has one expression. While I don't like to compare her to other portrayals, Galadriel, on the outside at least, has a calm, relaxed, and inviting nature to her, both in the cartoon and in the Jackson trilogy. But this Galadriel just constantly has a 'don't mess with me' look. I'm sure some will say that's because this is the young Galadriel who is yet to learn, but still, the tension in her body just makes it difficult for me to buy into her character. There's nothing about her that is making her enduring to watch.
This episode was the most underwhelming for me because it's seems to confirm that things are exactly what they seem, instead of the interesting plot twists the fans were theorizing. This story is very straightforward and simple, and I 100% agree with you about the lack of poetry in its writing. The harfoot's song was the closest they've gotten to achieving a Tolkien-esque feeling
As an immigrant, who escaped Venezuela with my husband, the song in this episode made me cry. It completely showcased the heartache mixed with happiness that only immigrants get everytime they think about the home they left behind. The only other song that showcases this is "Dos Oruguitas" from Encanto.
Been a huge Tolkien fan for my entire life and I am actually really enjoying the show despite its flaws. I’m not going to pretend it’s perfect, but in my mind it’s in it’s early stages. The Office’s first season is often considered it’s worse, and I’m hoping that Rings of Power is the same. I always appreciate seeing a new take on a world or story I love, even if it isn’t as good as the original. People were upset about things about Peter Jackson’s trilogy, but we seem to forget that with time.
My personal opinion on what the writers want us to feel about Galadriel, is that she's hotheaded and proud. That she's got blinders on and is forging ahead toward her goal without necessarily caring about who gets hurt on the way there. I don't think she's meant to be likable, at least not yet.
@@ItsButterBean1020 at this point the only arc I want to see her go through is arc off a cliff. She's thousands of years old and she behaves like my teenage niece after arguing with her parents
I thought the reason she acts this way is because she holds a part of "evil" inside her and she charges on ahead not caring for others just like "evil" would do. She is driven by vengeance and will only really change when she finds something else to fight for. She even sais herself: "If the evil is gone from this world why does it still exist inside me?" in one of the first episodes (Havnt read the books tho so not sure how much this is line with the books)
I thought I was the only crazy person out there who thought that the Harfoot section in this episode was actually pretty spot on. Really been enjoying watching your coverage of the show.
I realized yesterday that Amazon is basing much of the Harfoots on Smeagol's character. I can see Gollum coming from these creatures. I'm also guessing one of the anonymous elves from that dinner scene will end up being Annatar, going by a comment made by the show runners that we only see one glimpse of Sauron uncovered.
The fact that this series gave us that wandering song made the entire thing worth it for me. I’m so happy it exists and I’ll be listening to it removed from the series on a regular basis.
Rings of Power gets a resounding 'meh' from me. I have bare-bones knowledge of Tolkien's lore and all the characters feel a bit like a shell of who they're supposed to be.
I think the main thing that drags me about this show is that you don't get much story progress per episode. It feels like they have so many stories that they don't have enough time to progress each of them forward in their own time, so none of them are progressing with any real urgency.
You actually have a pretty good singing voice dude! And Elrond’s explanation was confusing but he first admitted to coming out of ambition rather than friendship, THEN mentioned the mithril, so I think he was trying to admit to his own fault first to soften the blow of the other stuff. But my biggest issue was him talking to Celebrimbor as if he hadn’t broken his oath. 😵💫
By specifically having Elrond mention the story is a myth makes me think it all Sauron's manipulation behind the scenes: - the elves are desperate to heal themsleves/realm. - sauron wants them to forge the rings with Mithril (for it special properties; NOT the myth qualities) - he convinces them that the myth is true, and the Mithril "containing the light" is their only salvation. - it also forges a connection between the elves and dwarves which will make distribution of the dwarven rings easier.
It basically makes Gil-Galad/Celebrimbor and anyone else who buys into this an elven equivalent of flat-earther. Because canonically Elves know what happens with them and 'Souls fading' makes literally zero sense from the standpoint of Elven knowledge of their world and nature.
They could just say Mithril is the crystalized drool of Huan the Hound of Valinor and it would make more sense than that elf-balrog-tree-lightening smoothie recipe.
And how would they even fit 500 men (plus horses, Isildur mentioned cavalry) in those not very big ships? Sure, they were supposed to have five ships originally, but still.
So far, I feel the same way you do. I haven't read the books, only seen the movies, I am not overly familiar with the lore. I also find Galadriel annoying, or rather her demeanor. Her motivation is not at all unique and not presented in a way that makes up for her arrogance and aloofness. While I also thought that this episode was more solid than the others, I also noticed the same problems you did. "Because I can't stop" only made me go: Oh... okay... And them losing two ships out of five and 'going to war' with three ships and 500 men almost made me laugh.
Pointing out all of these things that should have been in episodes 1 or 2 but are showing up in episode 5/8 in the season, has made me realize something. I think they're treating the entire first season the same way most shows would treat the premiere episodes. They're already committed to 5 seasons, and because of that I think they're burning the entire first season on setup.
I had a problem with the last couple of conflicts this episode introduced: Bronwen just changing her mind and almost screaming to everyone that they better surrender or will for sure die, it was so abrupt I thought it was a ploy to trick someone... But no, she just changed her personality... And then at the end the harfoot girl seeing the giant doing "something" that seems to be crystallizing or freezing his arm, decides very smartly to just grab the freezing zone, and then freak out when he finishes and the ice explodes, like he's suddenly a monster... It was a weird change
It’s that time again folks! It’s time to all talk in Tim's comments about how Amazon either didn’t read the Silmarillion or completely missed the entire point of the Silmarils. I genuinely don’t think they would’ve included the bit with the Mithril if they didn’t intend to go forward with it which is disappointing to say the least because you would think that after thousands of years of fighting over those damn gems, there wouldn’t be a single person in middle earth, not even a desperate elf, who would think that trying to acquire even just the light of one is a good idea.
I'm enjoying the show so far. I'm not a huge LOTR fan, I haven't read the books, only watched the movies and now the TV series. I'm fine with the slow-pacing of the show too, and I don't mind this version of Galadriel, and I'm more curious to see how she will evolve throughout the series since we already know her future. I think that's been my general stance on the show so far. I got on the ship, so now let's see where it will take me. Now 5 episodes in, there hasn't been anything that made me want to jump ship, so I'll enjoy the rest of the trip. I just hope it won't hit an iceberg at the end.
I've been enjoying the show. Now I've had to mentally separate it from LotR and the rest of the Legendarium to enjoy it better which is frustrating, but I'm a sucker for most things fantasy, and it's been fun watching a show with elves and dwarves every Friday night. I'd prefer if the show made me feel something more than entertained (which they've come close to with the "plea to the rocks" scene), but sometimes it's nice to have a fun show to watch. Now I do wish this wasn't related to Tolkien's work. Writing a story in somebody else's setting is very tricky, cause you can easily feel like fanfiction (which yeah, this show definitely can feel like that sometimes) and there's a large part of the audience that basically wants you to fail, and if you don't live up to the original author they will act as if you've made a cardinal sin. The show is fine, but it's definitely trying to wear shoes it could never possibly fill.
I hope one day to see "Tim fixes Rings of Power" series :) I think with annoying Galadriel they miss because she is supposed to be elvish superweapon of mass destruction. If I was writing the southlands story I would have tried to tie in Galadriel's travels, Arondir and evil rising in the southlands. You can even have the same setup with warrior lady of the light but have her be the objective of the first season for southlanders. Arondir has to find her and he is on the clock. When he finds Galadriel then you could have this epic 'I will fight with you' scene. She is too strong and does not have a lot of visible flaws in the lore at the end of SA and that makes it hard to write her as a protagonist without her being annoying
The wandering song was the first time the show has felt like middle-earth to me. I didn't even realise something was missing until I heard it but that song felt very tolkein to me. While I'm still not 100% on board with the show, I'm glad that little song made it in.
With regards to the Harfoots, I am currently trying not to see them as Hobbits. As far as I am aware, there are a couple of centuries between RoP and LotR/Hobbit. So they might change over time. Also, we know that while the Hobbits we know, are living together and supporting each other, they do not really take kindly to outsiders or to Hobbits who are different. Both Bilbo and Frodo are described as not really fitting in and being considered weird by most of Hobbiton. Maybe that is a remnant of the Harfoots more extreme stance. (I am writing this from my memory of the films mostly. I have not read the books in a while. So I might be totally wrong.)
Not too far off. Bilbo going on his adventure to the Lonely Mountain, lost him a looooot of respect, though the wealth he came back with probably eased some of that (and also stoked jealousy)
It feels like the show keeps dangling interesting hooks in front of me, so I bite onto them, and now I'm just sitting here waiting for the show to reel me in, but instead of reeling me in they just drop even more hooks. The various plot lines and stories they've laid out could turn out to be interesting, but at this point it feels like they have no intentions of even resolving those stories this season. Maybe this is the sort of show that will be easier to appreciate after a few seasons, but it's just so hard to say. I'll keep watching it, because I'm enjoying it, but it is a bit of a bummer.
Regardless of your thoughts on the elves wanting mithril subplot, the image of the elf and the balrog fighting over the tree look amazing. I'm not that deep into the lore so i don't now if this would break with it, but I suspect the elven rings will be made out of mithril and that's how they'll justify the need for it.
I look forward to watching your take on each episode. You’re views match up pretty well with how I’m feeling about the show, but you do a good job of point out why things feel this way.
I didn't like how they treated the oath because a) Elrond totally broke his oath, I guess just not technically and b) Gil-Galad asking Elrond to break his oath, Durin lying about the table, etc... just doesn't read like the noble characters they should be and doesn't jive with Tolkien's association between faithfulness and honesty and good. Seriously though, "they have this thing, don't they" "I oathed with Durin not to tell you that" "ok, so they do have it then" isn't really keeping your oath in any meaningful way. It would have felt more in character if Gil-Galad let Elrond know about his suspicions before he left and then Elrond used that information to pursuade the dwarves
If the Jackson LOTR is a 10, then Rings is riding at a solid 7-8 for me at the moment. I'm enjoying, some of it's surprising, and I'm excited to see where it'll go (definitely hasn't reached 10 yet, but it has potential). Honestly, it does feel like Tolkien to me, even if they are playing a little loose with the lore (I would say stretching it more than disregarding it at this point). There was talk about how the treasure King Durin(?) showed to his son Prince Durin might be a silmaril, and people freaked out about that, and then it turned out to be mithril, as it obviously was. I think the suggestion that the mithril is imbued by the light of a silmaril is poetic in its own way, even if the silmaril lying beneath the earth probably isn't under the misty mountains. Again, I'm cool with the compressed narrative of the second age, and mostly with their more loose interpretations (it would be nice if The Stranger wasn't Gandalf, but I'll keep watching even if it is). It's definitely playing a sort of long-game, especially as there are only 8 episodes and we only have three left (I haven't seen ep. 6 at the time of writing), so I'm hoping they're able to wrap up this season in a way that isn't just treading water, but has a full and satsifying climax (battle of the Southlands? who knows...) Has anybody considered that the Southlands becomes Mordor! I haven't been following the online commentaries that much. I think this episode was definitely the strongest (the second episode the weakest). And it does feel meandering, but not not entertaining (double negative intended). For me you have to consider that Tolkien didn't settle down on a set plot until they reached The Council of Elrond. Book One of the Fellowship was hella meandering (interesting, intriguing, but super meandering and not giving us a whole lot, still with the episodic chapters kind of feel from The Hobbit, but I'm all about Tom). So yeah, this season definitely feels like it's taking its time, perhaps is unsure of exactly what it wants to be, but I'm finding it engaging nonetheless (minus the second episode but for the Elrond/Durin plot). I think the darkening of the elves plot point (in quite contrast to the lore) can still potentially go with the grain of it in terms of the elves at their most corruptible as they're making the rings in variable cooperation with Sauron. I reserve judgment. And I really like the references they make to the first age, I think they handle it well for the most part. The inter-cutting of Halbrand's/Galadirel's late-night vulnerable moment with the southlands' folk surrendering to Adar/Sauron(?) I thought was very well done, and the interplay of darkness, light, and the human condition throughout this episode was rather well done. Like have the episode was "the same blood flows in my veins" and I thought that was well-written, it made me care a whole lot more. My favourite characters are Elrond and Adar/Sauron(?). I think the Elrond writing is mostly flawless, and I thought Adar's intro scene was one of the best 'baddie' intros I've seen in a long time. He already feels like a force. I like Arondir too, I think he has a lot of potential. That said, I'm at a 7 or an 8 with this show, and I'm curious to see where it gies.
I'm still experiencing a lot of zigzagging between liking and disliking throughout every episode. I feel like the Numenor plotline was better than previous episodes but the Harfoot plotline went up and then collapsed in the second half for me.
As much as I like to watch the Elrond and Durin friendship (some of the "best" dialogues are coming from them), I oddly enough think the best part of ROP is the Harfoots storyline, so Poppy's song really hit me. I genuinely wanted to watch that again after finishing the episode. But man I hate Galadriel, what have they done to our proud Noldor lady. I used to think episode 3 was the best one, maybe because we were still thrilled with Numenor but didn't know how bad it would be. But now I tend to agree with you. Thanks to Poppy and Bear McCreary.
I feel I would've liked the song more in another context. I wanted something better that "nobody walks alone" as well, but what's the point of showing them hiding, changing their camouflage at every location and trying to be nimble to avoid the wolves if they're just going to openly sing their song loudly?
I agree that it’s far from the worst writing in the world, the biggest thing is that with their budget and visuals the sub-par writing stands out like a sore thumb. Take this plot and dialogue and put it on a cable network and I think it would be fine. But when it’s being made by the biggest company in the world with the biggest budget of any TV show ever, those are some massive expectations being set up that it’s failing to deliver.
There is no way they fit 500 men on those 3 ships. Considering they are transporting supplies and horses, I’d be surprised if they had space for 100 soldiers.
Some have noted that I might be a little too hard on this series, but given the amount of money that was put into it and the source material it really has no excuse to be at least outstanding.
I kinda feel the same way. The show seems to be too broad to delve deep enough into any one of its storylines. We’re over the halfway point now, and it feels like we’ve only finished Act I.
For now, the only thing that could make sense in all this: It's all Sauron's Evil (but very complicated) plan: - The mark on galadriel's brother is to curse her or anyone to carry a spark of his essence and/or to embark on a quest that will trigger several elements needed for his return (Halrond ? Numenor ? IDK) - The whole elf "solution" is a lie that corrupted the elves. Most elves think Sauron's isn't here anymore, and are now focused on themselves. This let him act under their radar. - The Stranger is prolly Sauron (his fire don't burn which is the mark of Evil, the firefly thing, etc...), somehow, and his presence influence the harfoots to go to extrem mesures (like stealing the wheels), believing in protecting themselves. It's maybe a stepback in his plan. - The southlands is mostly exposition: Some men are ready to join Sauron, and continued to pray his name all this time, men and elves aren't all the same and can be friends (or even lovers I suppose), the orks managed themselves without Sauron. Ho and here's a MacGuffin sword thingy. - Numenor joining the fight means that when they are defeated, their queen die, and civil war will breaks out because most people hate the king and his old ways apparently. IMHO, Amazon wants to get some "nuance" and "texture" on Sauron and the orks, so I expect those 2 things to happens in some way: Sauron in the Harfoot community is to portray him as trying to be Good, for a time, before going back to his Evil way (sparked by Galadriel ? Or the Sword ? Or the corruption of the land ? Place your bets). The current ork leader is not keen on joining Sauron, but want his power, probably thanks to the MacGuffin sword. I expect him to be portrayed as caring for the orks and only wanting them to rule as they please over what they "deserve" or some stuff like that (maybe by clouding the Sun ?). He's the "good guy" for the orks, a race bred for war. He's to be contrasted with Sauron, sacrifying orks left and right. We'll see how far I am (probably solar systems away) wwhen this shitshow ends.
And I just watched the last episode, and I already got 2 points, wouhou \0/ Current ork leader isn't friendly to Sauron and wants the ork to rule on the land they conquered. So he used the sword to cloud the Sun for that. Half a point for Sauron told as being a Good Guy for a time to nuance him. I still hope it's the Stranger.
So... why would Gil-Galad tell such a lie? Forget the mithril story, I mean that the Eldar are dying? Why would he even believe such a thing? Why wouldn't Elrond also realize this if all elves are being affected? Seems to me all would know and all would be talking about it.
Possibly an odd take, but I feel like it’s mainly speculation due to the state of the tree. Elrond said of the tree that he gave Durin: “it’s a sapling of our Great Tree in Lindon. The very symbol of our people’s strength and vitality.” Provided this is a widely held view and not just Elrond being poetic/dramatic for the sake of it, if the Elves see their Great Tree is dying from some darkness, I could see how they could reach the thought process of it dying due to them dying/fading already
I'm really hoping they intended to go have Galadriel start out with hubris, but become shift to the more stoic/poised/elegance with a bit of humility Galadriel that we know and love from Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit. Like an Ahsoka Tano route in the Clone Wars where she starts off entitled, arrogant, rebellious, and just downright annoying but develops into a character you really fall in love with and respect after she made some pretty costly mistakes that cost her the lives of her troops and she really grow and learned humiliaty. So I really hope that's the route they're going with Galadriel because that would be very satisfying. And you can kinda see some bits where she kinda learns some humility, at least here and there with scenes with Halbrand and the Queen with her father.
Iirc, if it helps, the showrunners have said they took Galadriel’s talk with Frodo when he offers her the ring, and they thought she had a lot of self-awareness, and so a part of the story for them was how she got to that point.
I have been carried through the show by Elrond and Durin. I'm kind of disappointed how he swore to keep the mithril secret, and IMMEDIATELY gives it up by not denying anything, and actually giving his piece of it away. To make it worse, Durin doesn't even seem to care. I might be missing something, but so far I haven't seen anything in the show that hints at anything that isn't displayed directly on a surface level. Tolkien had a way of stating things that are never actually said or shown, allowing for your own interpretations or speculations or simply implied. To me the show feels like a completely different world, like a cheap knock-off watch you see at some tropical resort street vendor.
I think this show was written for and partially about me. I see myself in Galadriel more than I have in any other fictional character. Galadriel witnessed the destruction of the trees, my earliest memory is 9/11. Galadriel went to war as an act of vengeance, I joined the marine corps infantry right out of high school seeking vengeance. Galadriel was forced home even though she knew thay Sauron was still alive and everyone keeps telling her that the war is over even though it's not, the military stopped deploying infantry battalions into combat zones because the war was declared over even though the enemy is still active and I know the war isn't actually over. Galadriel has this overwhelming urge to hunt the enemy, and I spend hours every week staying in condition and doing weapons training because I know that war is just around the corner. Galadriel's story could literally be me; and it's so amazing to finally have a story told that I can throughly identify with.
Even the reaction of Galadriel's friends mirrors mine own. I hear several time a year from family thay I waste time preparing for a war that's already over. I'm always being told that I need to seek help for my obsession as if their is something wrong with me.
And it really feels like they want you to think Halbrand or the Stranger is Sauron. Especially with the Wizard showing some ice power a few episodes after Galadriel says something about evil being the absence of warmth or whatever and then with Halbrand basically telling Galadriel a plan about giving someone what they need so they can use it to control them which is exactly what Sauron did with the rings and his dark outbursts along with a few other snippets here and there that really scream Sauron. That being said, I don't think either are Sauron. It's too obvious. They're clearly red herrings to take you away from the Sauron trail. I do believe that Halbrand will become a Ringwraith. Maybe even the Witch King. I'm 99% sure of this at this time. He is a King and the ringwraiths are all human kings who became corrupt because of the rings. He's also a southlander and I can't remember how many of ringwraiths are southlanders. I know at least three are from Numenor. And if the Shadow of War is canon, Isildur becomes one at some point and they name two or three others. We also have one other name of a Nazgul that I can't remember at the moment and don't feel like looking it up. As far as the Stranger, I'm really hoping it's a blue wizard. It would make the most sense given that we know little about them and they have a lot of room to make stuff up. And many people would love to learn more about the blue wizards. But I feel like they're the type of people to throw in Gandalf for hype and nostalgia.
As much as i agree that the blue wizards need to be explored more and that the stranger being gandalf is fan service... i feel that it would still be neat if it were hobbits that taught gandalf the ways of the world at first. Idk, just seems satisfying to me storywise.
I don’t know the lore as a whole, so I find the show enjoyable. Obviously Durin and Elrond are carrying the show, the Illendil (pardon spelling)then the Harfoots, then the orcs. I do like Galadriel but that story is very slow paced and feels like it’s falling behind in an already slow burning show. However I still struggle with time! This show is thousands of years before the events of LOTR, or am I wrong? How long do the Numenorians live? How long did it take the rings to be forged? How long for those who had them to fall to darkness? Unless all but the rings for the elves have been forged. It’s straining to try and keep time straight since I don’t know all the timeline ahead of watching.
I am someone who knows the lore (and forgets a lot about the lore because there is so much. Honestly with Tolkien there are different versions of some stories cause he never realy finished any things 100 % except the Hobbit and lotr) and i like the show. Its writing has a few problems (to slow pace, not getting to the point), but overall i am always excited for a knew episode to drop.
I think the problem I had with Galadriel's characterization is that she SHOULD already be more mature. She's millennia older than every other elf that showed in the series and she still acts like a YA teenage protagonist
I agree in broad strokes almost completely with what you're saying, a couple little things like "they are making the Harfoots seem mean when I think they're supposed to be likeable" when we're dealing with a plot point of them literally taking wheels leaving their kind to die haha, I think it's safe to say they intended for people to feel conflicted about aspects of them. Also Elrond's coming clean with Durin was expertly done if you're familiar with dealing with close professional relationships where there are potential conflicts of interest, I really liked that. There were no buts in his apology When it comes to Galadriel I was hoping to see some more dimension to her character in this season, definitely in the realm of disappointment but yknow we'll see... there's lots of room to go from here for sure 😬. The one thing that gives me some pause towards her character is that it's understandable to act in this sort of way when they are being wholeheartedly rejected and viewed as a crazy person by those around them when they are pretty much completely in the right, hurts especially hard on top of their past trauma when it is done by their friends and family rejecting them in favour of the thing that caused the trauma in the first place. But yeah can see how that feels kinda teenage, really wish I could have seen a bit less Feanor and more Galadriel, who even when young was known to be wise
Hi Tim. In my opinion, in the rings of power there is a lack of building a different sense of time, memory, a sense of loss between elves, humans, dwarves, hobits, maybe even orcs. They could better show that, for example, the elves remember what happened 1000 years ago, and people may complain about the elf's lack of action in a case that happened two years ago, and how this other time perception creates distance between the races. A work where the relationship between mortals and immortals is very well presented is the webtoon "Kubera the last God"
Mr Twothefuture, thankyou for your thoughtful analysis. I almost dropped the series after episode 4, but thought I'd give it one more go. I'm half way through it and was consistently looking at how far I was through the episode, so I'll try to watch the second half after a breather. I'm totally confounded by lots in the storyline, one example being that the orcs seem to care about their kind and honour their dead more than the harfoots. It's crazy. And why does Numenor need to send untrained volunteers to middle earth? Don't they have an army? I know a little about the lore of Tolkien but am by no means an expert, and agree any film usually makes adaptations but these seem crowbarred in. Shallow is a good way to describe it.
" Would he be proud of what I’d accomplished with his legacy? Or disappointed by the countless ways I had failed to live up to it.” -Elrond. This is what I dislike about TROP; his father sailed to Valinor out of desperation for their sons to live in peace and not be destroyed along with the rest of the world, so why would Elrond think by doing just that he would be ashamed of him? I get that maybe they're making young Elrond not wise enough yet to understand, and that would be fine, but it's such a strange thing for an Elf like Elrond to wonder about that at all. It makes it seem like Elrond thinks that defeating Morgoth was about personal legacy, and not about the fate of the world. Why would an Elf not understand what was at stake? And now, Galadriel: Galadriel is the main tension character of the story, however, the tension isn't working because a revenge story is not particularly urgent. Think Count of Monte Cristo, its a slog to get through because revenge can bide its time. The fate of the world, however, is urgent. That's why LOTR comes across as more epic. What was at stake with LOTR was the fate of the world. What's at stake here is personal legacy, and personal pride and dignity. It's hard to care. With Galadriel being the main tension character, we have a problem. We never get a sense that she would rather be anywhere else or would rather not have to fight. She goes where she wants. She does what she wants. We don't get a clear sense that there is anything that she wants to defend and would do anything to do so (think the Shire. Think Arwen. Think Rohan). What she wants is to get revenge for her dead brother. Someone who is already gone. We don't really see her caring a lot about the other Elves, she has a very F you attitude towards her home (think Frodo saying he can finally see the Shire). That's what's missing for me. If Gandalf wanted to go through the mines of Moria and was happy and excited like Gimli was, his face off with the Balrog and his death wouldn't hit as hard. It hit hard because what it meant to the plot, but also because we had a sense of where he would rather be. He did what he had to do, not what he wanted to do, and payed the ultimate price. Galadriel being the main character is a problem because we are missing all of this. Revenge stories can have tension, for sure, but not when you're actually making a 'fate of the world' story, and the tension is around a revenge plot-line. Those thing's don't quite connect. You'd have to be a better writer than what I've seen in TROP so far to make it work.
This episode broke my remaining faith that the story can do anything other than disappoint and confuse me with its choices. I'm done following it week by week. I don't feel any sense of anticipation at the idea of watching it, just a tired "yeah, ok I guess". This story somehow manages to be both sluggish and rushed. The plot is dragging, but it's clear the entire production team wants us feeling deep, epic emotions about things because they keep visually referencing deeply emotional moments from the original film trilogy -- Boromir's death in Arondir/Theo's slow-mo escape; Faramir's doomed ride to retake Osgiliath with the flowers tossed into the Numenorean street. Is Halbrand going to ride along a row of raised swords in the last episode as the Numenoreans charge in to save half a single village? Galadriel said in her teary generic confession that the Elf in her squadron was her best friend. Really? Because that relationship was not communicated. What was his name? Was it ever mentioned? What is it that draws Arondir to Bronwyn other than she's not rude to him? What is their relationship besides staring softly at each other? Who even is Earien? What purpose does she serve in the story? When did she develop this connection with Kemen that they're holding hands and doing those soft stares? Why is she suddenly So Concerned about Numenor going to explore/war? Even if the midichlorioning of mithril is a lie or manipulation, I don't trust this writing team to pull it off in a satisfying way.
The problem I have with rings of power is that you can tell they want you to like the characters and I personally don't (aside from the dwarf storyline) and though not fair comparing it to house of the dragon you aren't supposed to "like" the characters so maybe house of the dragon writers have an easier job
I can only imagine the idea that the first season is setting everything up and the second season (if we get one, who knows) is going to be more action-centric
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I continue to be impressed with Amazon's ability to be perfectly mediocre no matter how much money they throw at something
Mediocre? That's quite generous.
Especially when you consider that Peter Jackson's trilogy was made on less than $300 million ($375 million when adjusted for inflation), and is still light-years ahead of this thing. And it was made in the late 90s/early 2000s.
I'm constantly bewildered how the same people can write some parts competently, but then manage to fail at complete basics like setup an pay-off. For example, Halbrand told Galadriel that she can't just demand from others what she wants, but instead should identify their greatest fears and offer them a way to conquer them. Then, Halbrand freaks out and I expect Galadriel to apply that lesson, but no: She just tells him to suck it up and doesn't even ask why he is so afraid to go back. And even better: It just works.
What about The Boys ? It’s one of the best shows around.
I think the lack of detailed source material leaves it to hacks to mess things up. Kind of like what happened with GOT once they had no more book material to pull from.
Invincible is good
Elrond and Durin are carrying this show for me like the Elves carrying Disa's new dining table.
Ah, so somewhat adequately. I quite agree.
I enjoy Durin's character, but he isn't remotely enough to "carry" this show.
@@frankvandorp2059 he more of drags it along like a heavy suitcase with one jammed wheel
Their friendship* is so much fun lol
Yet they screwed up Elrond for me with the revealing the secret without revealing scene with Gil-galad, and bascially revealing the secret ore to Celebrimbor in the next scene.
"Forgive the singing." No, that was adorable. If you don't have a video where you sing the songs from the books, you should do that.
Agreed!!
Agreed!
He has a very humble, human, and lovely voice! Personally, I think 'untrained' singing that isn't perfect, but clearly emotive is often preferable!
Rock it, my dude!
Where do we sign the petition?
We now know why Numenor doesn’t have a standing army: they keep stabbing each other in training exercises for promotions.
It’s oddly become a bit of a trope in film/show like this to have the training with regular weapons. it was brought up in the IGN “sword expert reacts to” video on Fellowship of the Ring when Boromir is teaching Merry and Pippin some basics. His thinking is it’s probably tied to the actors and crew being used to the far less dangerous prop weapons they use
I thought the origin of Mithril sounded like a Tolkien word salad thrown together at random like an improv skit. "Okay guys, here's what we're working with: Tree, Silmaril, Manwe, and Balrog. Okay, go!"
Yeah it definitely feels like the most fanficy thing about the series and I don’t know if I like it
I agree that it was very odd. That said, we don’t know if Gil-galad was telling the truth. Do we really know why they want the mithril?
@@davon1650 I’ve had this discussion before but I doubt it
It’s very likely a decent portion of this account he tells Elrond is true
@Davon @James Burgess whether the story itself is true or not (I’m still leaning on it being false), Gil-galad at least seems to believe it could be true, grasping for hope
@@davon1650 now gil-galad is the evil boss????????? :(
I just don't understand how this show can have some truly amazing scenes sprinkled here and there, and then some of the most cliché writing one could expect from a low budget fantasy series 🤷♀
Look at the sheer number of "Executive Producers" in the credits, I think there is the problem, there's too many cooks making this broth.
What are the "truly amazing scenes?" I'm not saying your wrong, but I'd like examples.
@@mycaleb8 for me almost everything in the Durin plot line.
@@JerzyMuller Truly amazing though? The singing, and design of Moria I can agree with, but is the quality of the Durin plot line in general "truly amazing?" It's good TV I agree, but is it really amazing?
@@mycaleb8 it's maybe a quarter of the show
100% agree that the singing caravan scene should have been much closer to the introduction of the series!!
I love seeing how different we experience this show. I was on the complete end of the spectrum of this one. Just couldn’t get into it aside from the plot lines I was already into.
Despite it being the strongest episode IMO, I think it does little to move my feeling of it being overall very mediocre
Tbh the whole Mithril Storyline for why events are happening for the Lindon Elves and Dwarves of Khazad-dum...really lost me...more than likely yes, the Mithril will be used to forge the Rings of Power...but just that kind of story...coming from Elves...idk, even without the Canon Lore, they could have kept a more Tolkien-theme...but then again...they don't want to have a Tolkien-theme beyond certain moments. They using far more Peter Jackson LOTR Movie References than they are to the actual Lore from the books.
Then we get plenty of 2022 themes in this show like with Durin about to say sh** during a conversation. Season 1 is what it is and wont get better as it's all set in stone but maybe they "could" learn lessons for future Seasons. They could recover from all this but I doubt they will.
I agree with you Mr Goblin. It's crazy how divided the opinions about this show are. For me, this episode backtracked what was accomplished in the last episode, and it just kept getting worse in terms of writing
me too. I was bother particularly by badly written dialogues in this episode. e.g. give me all the meat; find another one; sorry I used you etc.
@@harvain731 I like the idea (I think I heard it on Lore of the Rings channel) that it's a lie told to convince Elrond to betray the dwarves...since I also felt it lacked the layers you'd expect from the elves.
I don't mind a few curses. I'm rereading The Hobbit and am realizing there are more than a few instances of phrases used in common parlance.
It's not "the worst story telling in the world", but does have the greatest gulf between what we would expect given the source material and investment compared to what they've made.
It's interesting that you're honestly the calmest RUclipsr talking about this show. You're not enraged, but still critical. It's been a while since I've watched/listened to your work, been trying to get back into it, and it's very relaxing.
The thing with Galadriel is that she seems cold as a fish to me. Sure she's an elf, and really old, and maybe more aloof because of that - but pairing that coldness with the fury she displays you get pretty unlikeable character. It's as if she's rolled her character and has given herself a -3 in charisma. And that makes it hard to relate to her, and root for her
At the moment, they seem to only have her character in rage mode from death of the brother. Going to have to write her be driven, but more well rounded character she was and will become, not purely in vengeance mode as that is all we've see so far.
i think that fits her character really well, galadriel was never a really "warm" person, but with her being a side character in lotr, it never was seen as a problem.
but tbh her being too warm and charismatic wouldn't have fit the galadriel we know
Seeing how far they didn’t get in this episode, I actively said “god dammit they fully planned for a second season regardless of the reception”
Planned for a just second season? They’re contracted for 5 already.
@@davidbeer5015 I am curious if this is gonna be a Batgirl situation were they are gonna scrap it.
@@wjzav1971 hopefully they wont scrap it. They definitely need to scrap a lot of their writers though. Honestly so far the critiques of the show are more entertaining than the show itself. This needs to be better than Mythica and so far its just not. And for all their woke nonsense there is a rumor galadriel was even paid less, considerably less than most of the other lead characters.
They had 5 seasons confirmed waaaay before this first season came out.
It’s crazy how you could probably make cuts and make this work as part of a season actually about the Rings of Power
At this point Elrond and Durin's relationship is the only thing keeping me invested. I bought into their friendship right away, you can tell that they care about each other, and having Elrond not break his promise was really nice (I thought the writers would go the betrayal route and was pleasantly surprised).
I think the thing that confused me about the mithril-Silmaril story turn is that it doesn’t really make sense in the world Amazon has made. If they need the light of a silmaril to bathe all the elves, there is literally a star every night that is a silmaril, so, what’s up with that?
Bro you reaching for that star?
But yeah I agree with the that, the Silmaril thing is goofy
@@ItsButterBean1020 They don't need to reach It. In the LoTR, the light Galadriel gives Frodo is water with the light of the star mirrored in It. So they literally just need to take a bath in a place where the light of the star shines. Also, yeah, the Sillmaril thing was dumb and really unnecesary.
@@alvaroavilablanco3350 that was a joke
Also should point out the sun and moon come from the Two Trees. This should mean that their light is also the light of the trees. Side note, the trees are gone so how does going to Valinor help the elves? If the elves are fading should they not be feeling some kind of of side effects or symptoms? This story doesn’t make sense and if it is a deception (as some theorise) why doesn’t Elrond question it since their is no evidence?
The writers, and thus the characters, are dumb as shit.
I feel that the reason we can’t get behind Galadrial’s anger is because it is so CONSISTENTLY directed at bystanders. The first scene we get with her she is mistreating her subordinates to the point that they mutiny. Brutal military commander who pushes their soldiers too far is an antagonistic archetype.
Maybe she’ll have a come to Jesus moment and realize that in her efforts to catch and destroy Sauron she has lost her morals and her kindness, but at this point in time I’m kind of doubtful of the writers’ ability to come up with such an idea, much less pull it off. These are the same folks that wrote about the elves taking our jobs.
That episode *was* her come to Jesus moment when she confessed that even her closest friend and comrades couldn't distinguish her from evil. That's a pretty brutal bit of self-assessment. Nor does she say that they were wrong, weak, blind, etc. However, people can be clear-sighted about their flaws and still fail to correct them. So it remains to be seen whether she will.
@@davon1650 I like that part. It needed to be in ep 1 or 2. It shows her motivation and feelings, explains her anger and isolation.
@@scambammer6102 I totally get that point. Personally, I like seeing how extreme she's become rather than being just told it (which would've been the case if earlier). One reviewer compared her to Carrie Mathison from Homeland and I thought that was a great comparison. Mathison was brilliant and usually right but she was so abrasive and extreme about it that she alienated allies and had even her dearest friends wondering if she'd gone too far. I found Mathison to be a compelling protagonist because she was right but also deeply flawed. But a lot found her completely unlikeable. I think the writers of Homeland meant to push the edge of likeability. Until this episode I wasn't sure if the writers were intentionally pushing G to the edge or if it was just writing without taking enough care. But after her revelation about being perceived as near-evil, I regained my confidence that she'd been written that way intentionally. It's actually a far riskier choice than I would've given Amazon credit for. She could've been just a wise mini-goddess floating around saying profound things and looking pretty.
@@davon1650 OK. If that was deliberate choice I don't think it worked. She has just been unsufferable.
You did great with the singing, it was clear and you held the tone well, and you actually committed rather than dissolving into shaky cringe and giving up, which would have been all too easy to do.
You did well.
My main problem with the show so far is the writing. It has some really good scenes (mostly in the Elrond & Durin storyline) but for the most part, I don't feel like I'm watching a show set in Middle Earth, but some weird D&D campaign written by a DM that only has a bunch of names from a famous book that they haven't read. For example, mithril is now a generic magic rock that is instrumental to the survival of the elves instead of simply a really valuable and rare metal that, despite its value, isn't really all that important in the grand scheme of things. It's like they took something that most people would know about the setting and made it into an underwhelming generic MacGuffin.
Which is REALLY weird, because there's quite a few easter eggs strewn through the scenes and the sets are quite pretty and detailed. It's visually impressive, the music is excellent, but the writing and the characters are just... like I said, a really amateurish D&D campaign.
I agree with this. They spent over 200 million dollars per episode and this is what they offer us? Just proves that money does not mean quality. They should have just given Tolkien to Disney. Even Disney would have better writers for this.
I think the main problem for me with the series is that we don't spend lot of time suffering with the characters. Like, Galadriel's suffering is mostly told to us. We didn't see her brother die, we just see the body. So it's harder to care. She's essentially the Punisher, from Marvel, so they should have taken a page from the Punisher, to make us feel like her, a need to end the people who do all this evil.
Nice. I think the scene where she breaks down with Halbrand says ‘I can’t stop!’ almost worked. She’s actually aware she pushed her team to the point of mutiny, was out on a boat to exile - albeit to heaven - and is essentially mad with grief, but we’re not on her side because it’s all been done in minimal flashback. If she’s going to be the Punisher or John Wick with a sword, it needs a little more intimacy in the trauma. The scenes we did have are shot with this delicacy, an ethereal detachment - it generates the wrong emotion in the viewer.
@@MustafaAlmosawi I thought that scene made Galdriel out to be the victim and not that she was aware her actions pushed her team away. She said it like we should feel sorry for her. But I agree with you otherwise.
@@taters9722 it doesn’t help that she’s a deeply unlikeable and uncharismatic character. What’s even more unbelievable is how awful Elven leadership training and mentorship must be to put this obsessed narcissist in charge of a team for HuNdReDs of years?
I know there is this this idea that elves mature slowly, but this is Enron level of toxic management. They couldn’t have managed a mango stand with leadership like that.
Heck, they’re little better than the do as I say or else I torture you or beat you leadership of Morgoth.
Every time I try to think about this show it stabs me in the face with its layers of awfulness.
Well a stone can only see downwards so I guess us mere humans just don't understand the elven psyche very well 🙂
@@MustafaAlmosawi yeah her character is a mess. A lot of contrived elements to push drama. For example theres no reason why she should be this socially inept, except for to push the plot along. Just poor conveyance and bad storytelling
I agree with you. While I understand the venom behind the mithril origin story (it hit like PJ's "Arwen is dying" BS), but I can move past it so long as they don't drive it home as the truth and leave it as an apocryphal legend, possibly even made up by Sauron himself to sew conflict.
sow
The "legend" idea would work if they weren't elves. To elves such past events are not history. Gil-Galad, Celebrimbor, Galadriel, and Elrond were all born before the Silmarils were lost. In some cases WAY before.
3:11 I had a physical reaction when she said taking off the wheel so they can't follow. I felt absolutely horrified.
so unnecessarily cruel.
@@raminybhatti5740 Exactly... And real world nomadic communities are so tightly knit, they wouldn't dream of being so brutal...
I literally gasped aloud. Considering how frail harfoots are, is she not straight up proposing murder?!? How is this normal?!
@@daviydviljoen9318 Tight-knit communities are often built on being brutal to those who don't adhere to the community norms. That's why we have the word "ostracize." The too-tall milkweed is plucked. The nail that sticks out is hammered down.
Personally, I rather like that the harfoots are not angels. They have a hard edge, just like the hobbits in LOTR. Narrow-minded, provincial, judgey, etc. Counter-balances the courage and heroism of the main characters.
@@davon1650 you're wrong actually... In Caravans James Michener depicts a travelling Caravan community in Afghanistan, and they don't behave like the Harfoots in ROP.
There's more problems with the show... Like the Elves being stupid, and not the near angelic beings Tolkien created.
Poppy’s song felt right on target for me too. (And I also loved Disa’s song.Gave me chillbumps.) The showrunners are doing a lot with several storylines which perhaps makes it more difficult for us to get very attached to characters too quickly. However, I do feel attached to Nori, Poppy, and Nori’s family, and even meteor man. I love Durin and Disa, and I enjoy and care about Elrond and his friendship with Durin. I am prepared to love Arondir but not quite there yet. I must admit I’m also quite intrigued by Aman (?) the corrupted elf leader of the Orc’s). That is a lot of “main”characters and storylines to feel invested in for any series, isn’t it?
Positives; set design of Khazad-dum is fabulous. Visually the show over all is very beautiful, imo.
Music/soundtrack/character themes are VERY impressive.
Costuming by and large is great.
I wonder if they have different writing teams for each storyline. If so, the team writing for Galadriel and Numenorians are the weakest link, in my opinion.
HOWEVER, I appreciate that you give praise where it is due, and criticism where you see fit. MANY MANY artists had a hand in this production. To just write the whole thing off as garbage (as many are doing) seems waaay overkill. We have all seen films or shows where clearly not much thought or care has been given to the whole. That is not my experience with this. I think there is probably a small subset of writers and decision makers who are in over their head with this. But I think there are also a lot MORE artists /actors/ filmographers who really have really given a lot of time and care and attention to this project. I just wish people could “fine tune” the criticisms in hopes that changes will be made next season and enjoy what we can of having this world being brought to life for us. (I just feel for all the people who worked on this project who are ALL getting trashed by the social media influencers who are shredding this show as the “worst thing ever”. I expected a higher level of discourse from Tolkien / fantasy lovers. May we all hold on to our sense of human decency and our appreciation of intelligent discourse!!
Agree with everything you said.
And yeah, the hate has gone waay out of hand. To the point where it has somewhat soured my view of the Tolkien fandom. People can disagree with decisions made in the show, but that does not allow people to be dicks about it and say the most heinous of things.
Nuance is very important, but this show is garbage
Agreed also with everything you say. So far it's a ton of buildup, so I'm expecting a grand finale for the season like a reveal of Sauron or a big unexpected catastrophe, I hope that won't disappoint.
the workers got paid very well ... no need to be sorry for them, feel sorry for long time tolkien fans that has to endure this "adaptation" of something they love.
I loved Gil-Galad's speech about hope, even though convincing someone to break and oath didn't feel like a very Gil-Galad thing to do. Elrond's confession to Durin worked for me because it felt like Elrond was ashamed and trying to own up to the entirety of that shame without excuse.
Episode 4 ended with Ships being prepared to sail and humans in the Southland getting ready to defend the tower. Episode 5 ends exactly the same way. Also why would the Harfoots refer to their own legs as short in the song. They have normal length legs for hobbits.
Elrond tells Durin “I did not know it, but I came for Mithril”.
"Gee golly, Galadriel, I didn't realize stabbing an orc would kill them! I thought I could just hug them to death!"
"do we buy into galadriels anger?" No lol I feel like she needs to be a villain or a foil character that eventually gets a redemption and "matures" even though she's already had an eternity to do so.
It’s like they’re trying to make her a Zuko character without her having the excuse of being an abused sixteen year old
@@xander821 well thats their fault for trying to copy one of the greatest redemption arcs of all time :P
Usually those kind of arcs are foreshadowed too.
Not "matures" but "finds her way back" to who she was before she got so vengeful from her brother's death.
It’s been a very interesting experience so far. I know the lore is in this awkward limbo in terms of accuracy in the show but for what it is worth it has been enjoyable. If there’s a credit I can give right now, it is that they are doing an interesting and (for me) a likable job of setting up certain things. Numenor doesn’t have its coastal empire yet, but it seems like that’s exactly what will get established by the end here. We also know there’s a certain temple that gets built to worship a baddie, and there is conveniently a very important characters daughter who is in the architecture guild and isn’t a big fan of anything relating to elves. While non canonical it would have a level of narrative impact that there will be a big split in the future royal family and painful decisions are going to be made.
This episode was truly horrendous. It takes some of the fundamental themes of Tolkien and shatters them into a million pieces. If there was even a rumour of a surviving Silmaril, the elves would immediately find a way to get back up there and get it. Mithril won’t stop the elves from leaving Middle Earth…it can’t slow the effects of time, only the Great Rings could do that. The Silmarils can only be rediscovered when the world is “mended” in Tolkien’s version of Ragnorok, which is alluded to by Tom Bombadil when he says “ ‘till the world is mended’. Gil-Galad isn’t going to try and turn Elrond into an Oathbreaker, he would know better than anyone (as a relative of Feanor) how important oaths are.
The fanfic “Legolas by laura” is unironically more lore friendly than this. It doesn’t demolish the fundamental point of the series. I was prepared for this to be bad, but this was worse than my worst-case scenario.
For me Galadriel feels like an impulsive teenager, like why does she got herself on jail for being rude to the queen of numenor? As a being that had lived thousands of years she should've known better, also she is always angry that's why I think people find her annoying
When Galadriel started “teaching” the Numenorians, my partner and we’re cringing so hard.. it felt like such a cheesy “girlboss” moment and it was just so bad I wanted it to end
The worst part is that her fighting style as shown actually is very different than theirs. It looks like the “water dance” philosophy that Syrio teaches Arya in GoT, using flowing movements and making your opponent’s blows fall where you were, rather than staying where you are and meeting them with force.
The choreography was there for a real lesson, but the writing ruins it.
That one Harfoot must be so mean because she’s an ancestor of the Sackville-Bagginses.
Honestly the heal turn scene with Bronwen was so surprising I actually thought they were putting on a show for some reason like they were trying trick someone into believing they were planning to flip sides. But then I realized that made no sense.
OMG, same. I was wainting to see how the show they had put on would work only slowly realise that it was no show... aaaaaah.
Yeah. Especially since they moved to the middle of the square (or whatever you call that area...). But, I don't think it was for show? So really, idk.
I thought the same and was so confused XD
While it felt sudden, the way I kinda saw it was that the huge chunk that left with Waldreg really deflated her hope. Add in the key and it being something to help enslave her people, their acenstral history and prejudice from the Elves, and now the large Orc host on the way, and suddenly falling to the enemy is just seeming more and more like fate.
Also kind of unrelated but did anyone else kind of noticed they might have foreshadowed eagles getting involved with Nori in episode 2.
The Elf/Dwarf is doing a lot of lore-twisting but *in that area* it feels like they've earned it. Love Durin and Elrond.
For the most part, I'm enjoying it, it's giving me enough to want to know where it goes next. BUT... Galadriel is just not working! Every time she's on-screen I just want to sit her down and give her a massage to release the tension in her. Her jaw and muscles are always clenched and she has one expression. While I don't like to compare her to other portrayals, Galadriel, on the outside at least, has a calm, relaxed, and inviting nature to her, both in the cartoon and in the Jackson trilogy. But this Galadriel just constantly has a 'don't mess with me' look. I'm sure some will say that's because this is the young Galadriel who is yet to learn, but still, the tension in her body just makes it difficult for me to buy into her character. There's nothing about her that is making her enduring to watch.
This episode was the most underwhelming for me because it's seems to confirm that things are exactly what they seem, instead of the interesting plot twists the fans were theorizing. This story is very straightforward and simple, and I 100% agree with you about the lack of poetry in its writing. The harfoot's song was the closest they've gotten to achieving a Tolkien-esque feeling
As an immigrant, who escaped Venezuela with my husband, the song in this episode made me cry. It completely showcased the heartache mixed with happiness that only immigrants get everytime they think about the home they left behind. The only other song that showcases this is "Dos Oruguitas" from Encanto.
Been a huge Tolkien fan for my entire life and I am actually really enjoying the show despite its flaws. I’m not going to pretend it’s perfect, but in my mind it’s in it’s early stages. The Office’s first season is often considered it’s worse, and I’m hoping that Rings of Power is the same. I always appreciate seeing a new take on a world or story I love, even if it isn’t as good as the original. People were upset about things about Peter Jackson’s trilogy, but we seem to forget that with time.
My personal opinion on what the writers want us to feel about Galadriel, is that she's hotheaded and proud. That she's got blinders on and is forging ahead toward her goal without necessarily caring about who gets hurt on the way there. I don't think she's meant to be likable, at least not yet.
Yea there’s definitely an arc implied there but I think the question is should it be there
@@ItsButterBean1020 at this point the only arc I want to see her go through is arc off a cliff.
She's thousands of years old and she behaves like my teenage niece after arguing with her parents
> five episodes in
> 'not meant to be likable yet'
She's five thousand year's old. I don't think it makes sense for her to still be hotheaded.
I thought the reason she acts this way is because she holds a part of "evil" inside her and she charges on ahead not caring for others just like "evil" would do.
She is driven by vengeance and will only really change when she finds something else to fight for.
She even sais herself: "If the evil is gone from this world why does it still exist inside me?" in one of the first episodes
(Havnt read the books tho so not sure how much this is line with the books)
That was actually some good singing. Very something you might do around a campfire.
I thought I was the only crazy person out there who thought that the Harfoot section in this episode was actually pretty spot on. Really been enjoying watching your coverage of the show.
I realized yesterday that Amazon is basing much of the Harfoots on Smeagol's character. I can see Gollum coming from these creatures. I'm also guessing one of the anonymous elves from that dinner scene will end up being Annatar, going by a comment made by the show runners that we only see one glimpse of Sauron uncovered.
The fact that this series gave us that wandering song made the entire thing worth it for me. I’m so happy it exists and I’ll be listening to it removed from the series on a regular basis.
Rings of Power gets a resounding 'meh' from me. I have bare-bones knowledge of Tolkien's lore and all the characters feel a bit like a shell of who they're supposed to be.
yeah dude, the singing was really good. thank you for performing it that way
I think the main thing that drags me about this show is that you don't get much story progress per episode. It feels like they have so many stories that they don't have enough time to progress each of them forward in their own time, so none of them are progressing with any real urgency.
You actually have a pretty good singing voice dude! And Elrond’s explanation was confusing but he first admitted to coming out of ambition rather than friendship, THEN mentioned the mithril, so I think he was trying to admit to his own fault first to soften the blow of the other stuff. But my biggest issue was him talking to Celebrimbor as if he hadn’t broken his oath. 😵💫
By specifically having Elrond mention the story is a myth makes me think it all Sauron's manipulation behind the scenes:
- the elves are desperate to heal themsleves/realm.
- sauron wants them to forge the rings with Mithril (for it special properties; NOT the myth qualities)
- he convinces them that the myth is true, and the Mithril "containing the light" is their only salvation.
- it also forges a connection between the elves and dwarves which will make distribution of the dwarven rings easier.
100%. If they stick to this, then it's an easier pill to swallow.
It basically makes Gil-Galad/Celebrimbor and anyone else who buys into this an elven equivalent of flat-earther. Because canonically Elves know what happens with them and 'Souls fading' makes literally zero sense from the standpoint of Elven knowledge of their world and nature.
So Gil-Galad’s an idiot who was fooled by Sauron? This isn’t an improvement.
Great. Now the elves are even more stupid.
I love your review, I think your are fair with your criticisms while still being positive. I very much appreciate it.
12:37 “Why[…]? Oh I know-MONEY” LOL
They could just say Mithril is the crystalized drool of Huan the Hound of Valinor and it would make more sense than that elf-balrog-tree-lightening smoothie recipe.
Huan was a very good boy.
Nah, everyone knows that Mithril was created when Ungoliant got sick after eating Feanor’s gems, so she threw up and that’s where it came from.
And how would they even fit 500 men (plus horses, Isildur mentioned cavalry) in those not very big ships? Sure, they were supposed to have five ships originally, but still.
So far, I feel the same way you do. I haven't read the books, only seen the movies, I am not overly familiar with the lore. I also find Galadriel annoying, or rather her demeanor. Her motivation is not at all unique and not presented in a way that makes up for her arrogance and aloofness. While I also thought that this episode was more solid than the others, I also noticed the same problems you did. "Because I can't stop" only made me go: Oh... okay... And them losing two ships out of five and 'going to war' with three ships and 500 men almost made me laugh.
Pointing out all of these things that should have been in episodes 1 or 2 but are showing up in episode 5/8 in the season, has made me realize something. I think they're treating the entire first season the same way most shows would treat the premiere episodes. They're already committed to 5 seasons, and because of that I think they're burning the entire first season on setup.
I had a problem with the last couple of conflicts this episode introduced: Bronwen just changing her mind and almost screaming to everyone that they better surrender or will for sure die, it was so abrupt I thought it was a ploy to trick someone... But no, she just changed her personality... And then at the end the harfoot girl seeing the giant doing "something" that seems to be crystallizing or freezing his arm, decides very smartly to just grab the freezing zone, and then freak out when he finishes and the ice explodes, like he's suddenly a monster... It was a weird change
Come, sing me a song, Tim
*grotesquely bites cherry tomato*
It’s that time again folks! It’s time to all talk in Tim's comments about how Amazon either didn’t read the Silmarillion or completely missed the entire point of the Silmarils. I genuinely don’t think they would’ve included the bit with the Mithril if they didn’t intend to go forward with it which is disappointing to say the least because you would think that after thousands of years of fighting over those damn gems, there wouldn’t be a single person in middle earth, not even a desperate elf, who would think that trying to acquire even just the light of one is a good idea.
I'm enjoying the show so far. I'm not a huge LOTR fan, I haven't read the books, only watched the movies and now the TV series. I'm fine with the slow-pacing of the show too, and I don't mind this version of Galadriel, and I'm more curious to see how she will evolve throughout the series since we already know her future. I think that's been my general stance on the show so far. I got on the ship, so now let's see where it will take me. Now 5 episodes in, there hasn't been anything that made me want to jump ship, so I'll enjoy the rest of the trip. I just hope it won't hit an iceberg at the end.
It already hit the iceberg in the beginning and they are trying to pick through it, very slowly...
I've been enjoying the show. Now I've had to mentally separate it from LotR and the rest of the Legendarium to enjoy it better which is frustrating, but I'm a sucker for most things fantasy, and it's been fun watching a show with elves and dwarves every Friday night. I'd prefer if the show made me feel something more than entertained (which they've come close to with the "plea to the rocks" scene), but sometimes it's nice to have a fun show to watch. Now I do wish this wasn't related to Tolkien's work. Writing a story in somebody else's setting is very tricky, cause you can easily feel like fanfiction (which yeah, this show definitely can feel like that sometimes) and there's a large part of the audience that basically wants you to fail, and if you don't live up to the original author they will act as if you've made a cardinal sin. The show is fine, but it's definitely trying to wear shoes it could never possibly fill.
I hope one day to see "Tim fixes Rings of Power" series :)
I think with annoying Galadriel they miss because she is supposed to be elvish superweapon of mass destruction. If I was writing the southlands story I would have tried to tie in Galadriel's travels, Arondir and evil rising in the southlands. You can even have the same setup with warrior lady of the light but have her be the objective of the first season for southlanders. Arondir has to find her and he is on the clock. When he finds Galadriel then you could have this epic 'I will fight with you' scene. She is too strong and does not have a lot of visible flaws in the lore at the end of SA and that makes it hard to write her as a protagonist without her being annoying
The wandering song was the first time the show has felt like middle-earth to me. I didn't even realise something was missing until I heard it but that song felt very tolkein to me. While I'm still not 100% on board with the show, I'm glad that little song made it in.
With regards to the Harfoots, I am currently trying not to see them as Hobbits. As far as I am aware, there are a couple of centuries between RoP and LotR/Hobbit. So they might change over time. Also, we know that while the Hobbits we know, are living together and supporting each other, they do not really take kindly to outsiders or to Hobbits who are different. Both Bilbo and Frodo are described as not really fitting in and being considered weird by most of Hobbiton. Maybe that is a remnant of the Harfoots more extreme stance.
(I am writing this from my memory of the films mostly. I have not read the books in a while. So I might be totally wrong.)
Not too far off. Bilbo going on his adventure to the Lonely Mountain, lost him a looooot of respect, though the wealth he came back with probably eased some of that (and also stoked jealousy)
The lord of the rings: the power of power
It feels like the show keeps dangling interesting hooks in front of me, so I bite onto them, and now I'm just sitting here waiting for the show to reel me in, but instead of reeling me in they just drop even more hooks. The various plot lines and stories they've laid out could turn out to be interesting, but at this point it feels like they have no intentions of even resolving those stories this season. Maybe this is the sort of show that will be easier to appreciate after a few seasons, but it's just so hard to say.
I'll keep watching it, because I'm enjoying it, but it is a bit of a bummer.
May be good to take a stand and say no to consumer trash? Gotta have quality over quantity aye
They keep introducing new characters.
That's both a funny and accurate description of how I'm feeling right now haha
Regardless of your thoughts on the elves wanting mithril subplot, the image of the elf and the balrog fighting over the tree look amazing.
I'm not that deep into the lore so i don't now if this would break with it, but I suspect the elven rings will be made out of mithril and that's how they'll justify the need for it.
In the books, as far as I remember, at least one of the three elven rings was made with mithril. But I am pretty sure most were not
I look forward to watching your take on each episode. You’re views match up pretty well with how I’m feeling about the show, but you do a good job of point out why things feel this way.
Wife said the exact same thing, "Galadrial is kinda annoying".
I didn't like how they treated the oath because a) Elrond totally broke his oath, I guess just not technically and b) Gil-Galad asking Elrond to break his oath, Durin lying about the table, etc... just doesn't read like the noble characters they should be and doesn't jive with Tolkien's association between faithfulness and honesty and good.
Seriously though, "they have this thing, don't they" "I oathed with Durin not to tell you that" "ok, so they do have it then" isn't really keeping your oath in any meaningful way. It would have felt more in character if Gil-Galad let Elrond know about his suspicions before he left and then Elrond used that information to pursuade the dwarves
Tim singing this song would make for a great alarm clock. Such soft and uplifting start of a day!
The Hobbit is definitely a series where events just happen one after another. I guess they walk inbetween events?
If the Jackson LOTR is a 10, then Rings is riding at a solid 7-8 for me at the moment. I'm enjoying, some of it's surprising, and I'm excited to see where it'll go (definitely hasn't reached 10 yet, but it has potential). Honestly, it does feel like Tolkien to me, even if they are playing a little loose with the lore (I would say stretching it more than disregarding it at this point). There was talk about how the treasure King Durin(?) showed to his son Prince Durin might be a silmaril, and people freaked out about that, and then it turned out to be mithril, as it obviously was. I think the suggestion that the mithril is imbued by the light of a silmaril is poetic in its own way, even if the silmaril lying beneath the earth probably isn't under the misty mountains. Again, I'm cool with the compressed narrative of the second age, and mostly with their more loose interpretations (it would be nice if The Stranger wasn't Gandalf, but I'll keep watching even if it is).
It's definitely playing a sort of long-game, especially as there are only 8 episodes and we only have three left (I haven't seen ep. 6 at the time of writing), so I'm hoping they're able to wrap up this season in a way that isn't just treading water, but has a full and satsifying climax (battle of the Southlands? who knows...) Has anybody considered that the Southlands becomes Mordor! I haven't been following the online commentaries that much.
I think this episode was definitely the strongest (the second episode the weakest). And it does feel meandering, but not not entertaining (double negative intended). For me you have to consider that Tolkien didn't settle down on a set plot until they reached The Council of Elrond. Book One of the Fellowship was hella meandering (interesting, intriguing, but super meandering and not giving us a whole lot, still with the episodic chapters kind of feel from The Hobbit, but I'm all about Tom). So yeah, this season definitely feels like it's taking its time, perhaps is unsure of exactly what it wants to be, but I'm finding it engaging nonetheless (minus the second episode but for the Elrond/Durin plot). I think the darkening of the elves plot point (in quite contrast to the lore) can still potentially go with the grain of it in terms of the elves at their most corruptible as they're making the rings in variable cooperation with Sauron. I reserve judgment. And I really like the references they make to the first age, I think they handle it well for the most part.
The inter-cutting of Halbrand's/Galadirel's late-night vulnerable moment with the southlands' folk surrendering to Adar/Sauron(?) I thought was very well done, and the interplay of darkness, light, and the human condition throughout this episode was rather well done. Like have the episode was "the same blood flows in my veins" and I thought that was well-written, it made me care a whole lot more.
My favourite characters are Elrond and Adar/Sauron(?). I think the Elrond writing is mostly flawless, and I thought Adar's intro scene was one of the best 'baddie' intros I've seen in a long time. He already feels like a force. I like Arondir too, I think he has a lot of potential.
That said, I'm at a 7 or an 8 with this show, and I'm curious to see where it gies.
You did a great job singing. Thank you. It put a big smile on my face.
I'm still experiencing a lot of zigzagging between liking and disliking throughout every episode. I feel like the Numenor plotline was better than previous episodes but the Harfoot plotline went up and then collapsed in the second half for me.
As much as I like to watch the Elrond and Durin friendship (some of the "best" dialogues are coming from them), I oddly enough think the best part of ROP is the Harfoots storyline, so Poppy's song really hit me. I genuinely wanted to watch that again after finishing the episode. But man I hate Galadriel, what have they done to our proud Noldor lady.
I used to think episode 3 was the best one, maybe because we were still thrilled with Numenor but didn't know how bad it would be. But now I tend to agree with you. Thanks to Poppy and Bear McCreary.
I feel I would've liked the song more in another context. I wanted something better that "nobody walks alone" as well, but what's the point of showing them hiding, changing their camouflage at every location and trying to be nimble to avoid the wolves if they're just going to openly sing their song loudly?
I agree that it’s far from the worst writing in the world, the biggest thing is that with their budget and visuals the sub-par writing stands out like a sore thumb. Take this plot and dialogue and put it on a cable network and I think it would be fine. But when it’s being made by the biggest company in the world with the biggest budget of any TV show ever, those are some massive expectations being set up that it’s failing to deliver.
There is no way they fit 500 men on those 3 ships. Considering they are transporting supplies and horses, I’d be surprised if they had space for 100 soldiers.
The mithril subplot is probably one of the most bizarre and confounding adaptational changes I've seen in awhile.
I wanna put this out there but Gil Galad in this show kinda looks like Bezos in an elf wig.
Some have noted that I might be a little too hard on this series, but given the amount of money that was put into it and the source material it really has no excuse to be at least outstanding.
I kinda feel the same way. The show seems to be too broad to delve deep enough into any one of its storylines. We’re over the halfway point now, and it feels like we’ve only finished Act I.
For now, the only thing that could make sense in all this:
It's all Sauron's Evil (but very complicated) plan:
- The mark on galadriel's brother is to curse her or anyone to carry a spark of his essence and/or to embark on a quest that will trigger several elements needed for his return (Halrond ? Numenor ? IDK)
- The whole elf "solution" is a lie that corrupted the elves. Most elves think Sauron's isn't here anymore, and are now focused on themselves. This let him act under their radar.
- The Stranger is prolly Sauron (his fire don't burn which is the mark of Evil, the firefly thing, etc...), somehow, and his presence influence the harfoots to go to extrem mesures (like stealing the wheels), believing in protecting themselves. It's maybe a stepback in his plan.
- The southlands is mostly exposition: Some men are ready to join Sauron, and continued to pray his name all this time, men and elves aren't all the same and can be friends (or even lovers I suppose), the orks managed themselves without Sauron. Ho and here's a MacGuffin sword thingy.
- Numenor joining the fight means that when they are defeated, their queen die, and civil war will breaks out because most people hate the king and his old ways apparently.
IMHO, Amazon wants to get some "nuance" and "texture" on Sauron and the orks, so I expect those 2 things to happens in some way:
Sauron in the Harfoot community is to portray him as trying to be Good, for a time, before going back to his Evil way (sparked by Galadriel ? Or the Sword ? Or the corruption of the land ? Place your bets).
The current ork leader is not keen on joining Sauron, but want his power, probably thanks to the MacGuffin sword. I expect him to be portrayed as caring for the orks and only wanting them to rule as they please over what they "deserve" or some stuff like that (maybe by clouding the Sun ?). He's the "good guy" for the orks, a race bred for war. He's to be contrasted with Sauron, sacrifying orks left and right.
We'll see how far I am (probably solar systems away) wwhen this shitshow ends.
And I just watched the last episode, and I already got 2 points, wouhou \0/
Current ork leader isn't friendly to Sauron and wants the ork to rule on the land they conquered. So he used the sword to cloud the Sun for that.
Half a point for Sauron told as being a Good Guy for a time to nuance him. I still hope it's the Stranger.
So... why would Gil-Galad tell such a lie? Forget the mithril story, I mean that the Eldar are dying? Why would he even believe such a thing? Why wouldn't Elrond also realize this if all elves are being affected? Seems to me all would know and all would be talking about it.
Possibly an odd take, but I feel like it’s mainly speculation due to the state of the tree. Elrond said of the tree that he gave Durin: “it’s a sapling of our Great Tree in Lindon. The very symbol of our people’s strength and vitality.” Provided this is a widely held view and not just Elrond being poetic/dramatic for the sake of it, if the Elves see their Great Tree is dying from some darkness, I could see how they could reach the thought process of it dying due to them dying/fading already
My first thought when this song played was "I feel like this is a response to Tim"
I'm really hoping they intended to go have Galadriel start out with hubris, but become shift to the more stoic/poised/elegance with a bit of humility Galadriel that we know and love from Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit. Like an Ahsoka Tano route in the Clone Wars where she starts off entitled, arrogant, rebellious, and just downright annoying but develops into a character you really fall in love with and respect after she made some pretty costly mistakes that cost her the lives of her troops and she really grow and learned humiliaty. So I really hope that's the route they're going with Galadriel because that would be very satisfying. And you can kinda see some bits where she kinda learns some humility, at least here and there with scenes with Halbrand and the Queen with her father.
Iirc, if it helps, the showrunners have said they took Galadriel’s talk with Frodo when he offers her the ring, and they thought she had a lot of self-awareness, and so a part of the story for them was how she got to that point.
Hearing you sing that song was great and definitely made my day.
I have been carried through the show by Elrond and Durin. I'm kind of disappointed how he swore to keep the mithril secret, and IMMEDIATELY gives it up by not denying anything, and actually giving his piece of it away. To make it worse, Durin doesn't even seem to care. I might be missing something, but so far I haven't seen anything in the show that hints at anything that isn't displayed directly on a surface level. Tolkien had a way of stating things that are never actually said or shown, allowing for your own interpretations or speculations or simply implied. To me the show feels like a completely different world, like a cheap knock-off watch you see at some tropical resort street vendor.
I think this show was written for and partially about me. I see myself in Galadriel more than I have in any other fictional character.
Galadriel witnessed the destruction of the trees, my earliest memory is 9/11. Galadriel went to war as an act of vengeance, I joined the marine corps infantry right out of high school seeking vengeance.
Galadriel was forced home even though she knew thay Sauron was still alive and everyone keeps telling her that the war is over even though it's not, the military stopped deploying infantry battalions into combat zones because the war was declared over even though the enemy is still active and I know the war isn't actually over.
Galadriel has this overwhelming urge to hunt the enemy, and I spend hours every week staying in condition and doing weapons training because I know that war is just around the corner.
Galadriel's story could literally be me; and it's so amazing to finally have a story told that I can throughly identify with.
Even the reaction of Galadriel's friends mirrors mine own.
I hear several time a year from family thay I waste time preparing for a war that's already over. I'm always being told that I need to seek help for my obsession as if their is something wrong with me.
I agree with you about light of the trees / mithril. Totally unnecessary unless it's a lie of Anatar. Even then maybe not necessary.
And it really feels like they want you to think Halbrand or the Stranger is Sauron. Especially with the Wizard showing some ice power a few episodes after Galadriel says something about evil being the absence of warmth or whatever and then with Halbrand basically telling Galadriel a plan about giving someone what they need so they can use it to control them which is exactly what Sauron did with the rings and his dark outbursts along with a few other snippets here and there that really scream Sauron.
That being said, I don't think either are Sauron. It's too obvious. They're clearly red herrings to take you away from the Sauron trail. I do believe that Halbrand will become a Ringwraith. Maybe even the Witch King. I'm 99% sure of this at this time. He is a King and the ringwraiths are all human kings who became corrupt because of the rings. He's also a southlander and I can't remember how many of ringwraiths are southlanders. I know at least three are from Numenor. And if the Shadow of War is canon, Isildur becomes one at some point and they name two or three others. We also have one other name of a Nazgul that I can't remember at the moment and don't feel like looking it up.
As far as the Stranger, I'm really hoping it's a blue wizard. It would make the most sense given that we know little about them and they have a lot of room to make stuff up. And many people would love to learn more about the blue wizards. But I feel like they're the type of people to throw in Gandalf for hype and nostalgia.
As much as i agree that the blue wizards need to be explored more and that the stranger being gandalf is fan service... i feel that it would still be neat if it were hobbits that taught gandalf the ways of the world at first. Idk, just seems satisfying to me storywise.
I don’t know the lore as a whole, so I find the show enjoyable. Obviously Durin and Elrond are carrying the show, the Illendil (pardon spelling)then the Harfoots, then the orcs. I do like Galadriel but that story is very slow paced and feels like it’s falling behind in an already slow burning show.
However I still struggle with time! This show is thousands of years before the events of LOTR, or am I wrong? How long do the Numenorians live? How long did it take the rings to be forged? How long for those who had them to fall to darkness? Unless all but the rings for the elves have been forged.
It’s straining to try and keep time straight since I don’t know all the timeline ahead of watching.
I am someone who knows the lore (and forgets a lot about the lore because there is so much. Honestly with Tolkien there are different versions of some stories cause he never realy finished any things 100 % except the Hobbit and lotr) and i like the show. Its writing has a few problems (to slow pace, not getting to the point), but overall i am always excited for a knew episode to drop.
I think the problem I had with Galadriel's characterization is that she SHOULD already be more mature. She's millennia older than every other elf that showed in the series and she still acts like a YA teenage protagonist
I agree in broad strokes almost completely with what you're saying, a couple little things like "they are making the Harfoots seem mean when I think they're supposed to be likeable" when we're dealing with a plot point of them literally taking wheels leaving their kind to die haha, I think it's safe to say they intended for people to feel conflicted about aspects of them. Also Elrond's coming clean with Durin was expertly done if you're familiar with dealing with close professional relationships where there are potential conflicts of interest, I really liked that. There were no buts in his apology
When it comes to Galadriel I was hoping to see some more dimension to her character in this season, definitely in the realm of disappointment but yknow we'll see... there's lots of room to go from here for sure 😬. The one thing that gives me some pause towards her character is that it's understandable to act in this sort of way when they are being wholeheartedly rejected and viewed as a crazy person by those around them when they are pretty much completely in the right, hurts especially hard on top of their past trauma when it is done by their friends and family rejecting them in favour of the thing that caused the trauma in the first place. But yeah can see how that feels kinda teenage, really wish I could have seen a bit less Feanor and more Galadriel, who even when young was known to be wise
Hi Tim. In my opinion, in the rings of power there is a lack of building a different sense of time, memory, a sense of loss between elves, humans, dwarves, hobits, maybe even orcs. They could better show that, for example, the elves remember what happened 1000 years ago, and people may complain about the elf's lack of action in a case that happened two years ago, and how this other time perception creates distance between the races. A work where the relationship between mortals and immortals is very well presented is the webtoon "Kubera the last God"
By mustering the confidence to sing, you, sir, have earned my like 😁
Mr Twothefuture, thankyou for your thoughtful analysis.
I almost dropped the series after episode 4, but thought I'd give it one more go. I'm half way through it and was consistently looking at how far I was through the episode, so I'll try to watch the second half after a breather.
I'm totally confounded by lots in the storyline, one example being that the orcs seem to care about their kind and honour their dead more than the harfoots. It's crazy.
And why does Numenor need to send untrained volunteers to middle earth? Don't they have an army?
I know a little about the lore of Tolkien but am by no means an expert, and agree any film usually makes adaptations but these seem crowbarred in.
Shallow is a good way to describe it.
" Would he be proud of what I’d accomplished with his legacy? Or disappointed by the countless ways I had failed to live up to it.” -Elrond. This is what I dislike about TROP; his father sailed to Valinor out of desperation for their sons to live in peace and not be destroyed along with the rest of the world, so why would Elrond think by doing just that he would be ashamed of him? I get that maybe they're making young Elrond not wise enough yet to understand, and that would be fine, but it's such a strange thing for an Elf like Elrond to wonder about that at all. It makes it seem like Elrond thinks that defeating Morgoth was about personal legacy, and not about the fate of the world. Why would an Elf not understand what was at stake? And now, Galadriel: Galadriel is the main tension character of the story, however, the tension isn't working because a revenge story is not particularly urgent. Think Count of Monte Cristo, its a slog to get through because revenge can bide its time. The fate of the world, however, is urgent. That's why LOTR comes across as more epic. What was at stake with LOTR was the fate of the world. What's at stake here is personal legacy, and personal pride and dignity. It's hard to care.
With Galadriel being the main tension character, we have a problem. We never get a sense that she would rather be anywhere else or would rather not have to fight. She goes where she wants. She does what she wants. We don't get a clear sense that there is anything that she wants to defend and would do anything to do so (think the Shire. Think Arwen. Think Rohan). What she wants is to get revenge for her dead brother. Someone who is already gone. We don't really see her caring a lot about the other Elves, she has a very F you attitude towards her home (think Frodo saying he can finally see the Shire). That's what's missing for me. If Gandalf wanted to go through the mines of Moria and was happy and excited like Gimli was, his face off with the Balrog and his death wouldn't hit as hard. It hit hard because what it meant to the plot, but also because we had a sense of where he would rather be. He did what he had to do, not what he wanted to do, and payed the ultimate price. Galadriel being the main character is a problem because we are missing all of this. Revenge stories can have tension, for sure, but not when you're actually making a 'fate of the world' story, and the tension is around a revenge plot-line. Those thing's don't quite connect. You'd have to be a better writer than what I've seen in TROP so far to make it work.
This episode broke my remaining faith that the story can do anything other than disappoint and confuse me with its choices. I'm done following it week by week. I don't feel any sense of anticipation at the idea of watching it, just a tired "yeah, ok I guess".
This story somehow manages to be both sluggish and rushed. The plot is dragging, but it's clear the entire production team wants us feeling deep, epic emotions about things because they keep visually referencing deeply emotional moments from the original film trilogy -- Boromir's death in Arondir/Theo's slow-mo escape; Faramir's doomed ride to retake Osgiliath with the flowers tossed into the Numenorean street. Is Halbrand going to ride along a row of raised swords in the last episode as the Numenoreans charge in to save half a single village?
Galadriel said in her teary generic confession that the Elf in her squadron was her best friend. Really? Because that relationship was not communicated. What was his name? Was it ever mentioned?
What is it that draws Arondir to Bronwyn other than she's not rude to him? What is their relationship besides staring softly at each other?
Who even is Earien? What purpose does she serve in the story? When did she develop this connection with Kemen that they're holding hands and doing those soft stares? Why is she suddenly So Concerned about Numenor going to explore/war?
Even if the midichlorioning of mithril is a lie or manipulation, I don't trust this writing team to pull it off in a satisfying way.
Me personally, I loved your singing in the beginning
The problem I have with rings of power is that you can tell they want you to like the characters and I personally don't (aside from the dwarf storyline) and though not fair comparing it to house of the dragon you aren't supposed to "like" the characters so maybe house of the dragon writers have an easier job
I can only imagine the idea that the first season is setting everything up and the second season (if we get one, who knows) is going to be more action-centric