From media and communications, to law, business and culture, pretentious intellectuals are everywhere nowadays. Make sure you deal with their work appropriately.
Ben Mccrory some folks clutch their ego too closely to their intellect if you ask me. Distorts their perception on other aspects of life. You know some folks package intelligence-with a bad attitude and they can be so annoying
She's the exact opposite of a pretentious intellectual. She's to the point, communicates effectively, finds data to support her conclusion and stands by i
She's also German. Thinking outside the box isn't her strong suit, but her knowledge is valuable to understand public perception and overcoming those hurdles as the science becomes more clear.
Mad men will unfortunately be a point of history that sits with the people that like it the most and the most vocally, are the same demographic that just doesn't get the point of the show
Most intellectuals are pretentious, but that doesn't mean they aren't smarter than you or correct about what they say. Putting more importance on yourself and your ideas than they are worth doesn't mean they are worth less than the competition.
@Juice She wasn't advocating for that at all. Her idea was to sidestep the medical talk all together and focus on something people were already thinking that they cared more about them how harmful cigarettes were. It was a really good approach that cigarette companies in real life used in the 70s and 80s. Heck to some extent anti-maskers from early in the pandemic we're doing something similar, that there's something patriotic about being "free" enough to go in the opposite direction of professional doctor's recommendations. Eventually Don uses his Galaxy-class ego to drum up enough attention to get the company some money to keep the lights on, but if he just listened to this Doctor he'd have been way better off as the number one cigarette advertiser ever.
@Thegame .Dev Meh so the title of this clip is a little inaccurate. The woman was kind of arrogant with her knowledge and not understanding how advertising is about selling souls with persuasion not convincing people with facts.
@@bighands69 She was objectively right, look at the massively successful cigarette slogans of the two decades after this (ALL about independence, think Marlboro man for instance, all appealing to independence, American cowboyism, etc), and then Draper was a huge dick to her, literally throwing all of her and her team's hard work in the garbage can, simply because he stubbornly though he knew better. This scene is one of those where there are deliberate values dissonance scenes (like when certain characters say stuff like "Well OBVIOUSLY Nixon is gonna win, that Kennedy is just a kid!!"), we're supposed to chuckle and how naive Don is being.
I’m watchful/horrified that self-made Don Drapper is what American men tell themselves they are & he is deeply unhappy. When he casually derails the women in his life (his wifes/co-workers) we breath a sign of relief b/c as a ‘good’ man; he did not kill/beat them.
She’s pretty spot on about Don. Much of his behaviour through the series seemed motivated by a perverse desire to sabotage the perfect life he’s manufactured for himself.
The 'perfect' life or American dream isn't enough for him. I would say that he wants to have his cake and eat it. He wants to live a double life and try to preserve it at all costs.
@@007mercyme There's a world of difference in thinking a perfect life isn't enough, and realizing that the simple image of a perfect life, being happy all the time and smiling, only speaks to a part of the human experience, and to deny or suppress and hide the dark from your spouse will destroy that relationship and that "perfect" life. His wife clearly isn't the right woman for him, or rather their relationship, social norms, and gender roles at that time place husband and wife in boxes with no room to explore and share the darker aspects of life with each other. They are just supposed to smile and be happy all the time, and THAT's what's not enough.
Yes, the main theme of this show is Don is making himself miserable trying for the life he thinks he’s supposed to have or want. But none of it makes him happy.
This is incredible You completely missed the point of what happened here.... Absolutely embarrassing. The writer even screams it at the viewer by having Sal say "So people are living one way while secretly wanting the opposite?" which is a *direct nod because Sal in the show is a gay man living as a straight man married to a woman.* They basically yelled this at viewers and the creator of this video STILL missed the point. 😂 Not even the hidden dislikes can help you here bro.
There are alternate, non-Freudian explanations for people's shadow. Freud isn't as convincing nor as slam-dunk of a psychologist as every two-bit amazing atheist seems to think that he is.
I honestly can't tell which one of them is supposed to be the "pretentious intellectual." I really thought it was the guy in the suit until he just completely dismisses actual research out-of-hand at the end. I think the uploader is just a caveman lol
@@wisdomsnap8695 The research that the woman presents is based off of Freudian psychology. This was controversial at the time of this show’s setting, and still is despite all of the research that has taken place. The only way you think of this as a slam dunk is if you cherry pick the research that you like in one of the most notorious fields for reaching soft scientific conclusions.
I was going to correct this misconception, but then I realized that if I let more people think this way I have a better shot of stealing away all the best talent.
To assume that people have death wish while smoking a cigarette is one thing, but to think it's a good Idea to put it on a billboard is another. She's pretentious because she seems to think she has a better idea than Don but in fact her idea, as true as it may be, is the dumbest thing you can suggest to a client.
@@andrewvelonis5940 She was suggesting an ad campaign based on her findings, which is Don's job. Not hers. And that's incredibly arrogant and pretentious. Her job is to dig up the facts and present them as they stand. His job is to spin it into something that the people will want to hear so it doesn't hurt sales. Doing it her way would have tanked sales hard. Her facts were well founded and based on cold, hard evidence. It just so happens that said evidence was incredibly bad for business and thus useless to Don.
Also how did Don even “handle” her? He paid her for her advice, she gave it, and he chose to ignore it. He didn’t win anything, she would’ve still gotten paid
If anything he did himself a disservice. The ad campaign she suggested WAS the one used throughout the 70s and 80s, think about that lone cowboy doing what he does on every Marlboro poster you saw. Acknowledging the death wish and shifting the narrative to defiance to modern understanding and holding onto traditional in the face of objective facts. Look at the anti mask and anti vax movements calling everyone sheep while doctors point out how wrong they are.
In fairness 1950s USA probably wasn't as willing to be as risky with advertising. Whilst in the 70s and 80s was a much more open time for advertising so running those ads in the 1950s might have been an awful idea
@@gatfatf Anti-Mask movements aren't anti-science. The exact same people who said Trump was hitler because his CDC advised Masking and Vax were the same ones calling you a nazi if you refused a mask and Vax in the first place.
@@edwardgiovannelli5191 You've done an excellent job of ignoring the substance of what I said, instead resorting to an attack on my character. Have a good day.
Sal: “So, we’re supposed to believe that people are living one way and secretly thinking the exact opposite? That’s ridiculous...” Said gay man so deep in the closet he’s married to a woman who wants children.
The title doesn't make sense. Seriously, how is she pretentious? It was Don who seemed to fit in that segment. Unless this title is really about Don, but i fail to see that.
+lulubeloo Sort of. In the show, Don was pretentious because he actually appealed to a lot of things that are now considered scientific advertising psychology fact, all the while he was dismissing psychology as hogwash. The title doesn't really make sense for a lot of reasons. You could say he was sort of right about her being overly focused on selling cigarettes as opposed to selling her brand of cigarettes(if you take out the context she mentioned - which is the fear of cigarette sales going down because of mandatory warning labels), but then again, if no one is buying cigarettes at all, it doesn't matter whose brand they're not buying. And on the other hand, it IS pretentious to throw around the ideas of some academic and imply that they are right solely on the basis that they are the ideas of an academic. Though factually; Freud turned out to be right about some things and wrong about others, and a lot of people don't realize that. When they talk about subconscious drives - not much in that regard was in any way proven at the time. But we now have studies that show warning labels do nothing to reduce cigarette sales, and even have the reverse effect.
The doctor had both Sal and Don pegged, living one way and thinking the exact opposite. Later in this episode, Don says he’s living like there’s no tomorrow because there isn’t one. There’s the death wish. She’s not pretentious. She just is too close to the bone and doesn’t think like a creative mad man...
This scene can be interpreted in a variety of ways, as evidenced by the comments below, but, in my opinion, you really can't discuss this scene without discussing the scene that closely follows it, i.e: Don lying down to take a nap, and as he does so, he watches a fly in the light fixture above him, i.e., a modernized version of the expression "a moth drawn to flame." The death drive, the death wish. They even do a close-up of the shot to further illustrate this. Cue six seasons of Don struggling with self-destructive tendencies, characters living one way and thinking another, etc.-- just what the doctor described. It's a brilliant show, and they focus heavily on symbolism (just like the Sopranos). Liberal or conservative, or anything, if you think this scene is *solely* about the doctor being pretentious and Don being correct to dismiss her intellectual ideas, I would opine that you may have missed some of what I believe to be the key elements of the series. (Genuinely) great discussion, all-- cheers!
+nystateofmind53 Not to mention Sal's statement "We're supposed to believe that people are living one way and secretly thinking the exact opposite? That's ridiculous." (At 1:04) It was obvious even at this point in the show that Sal was a closeted gay man, and the first time I saw it, it came off to me as almost ham-fisted in making its point that our Austrian psychoanalyst is completely correct.
kewl, thx 4 ur rly constructive insight and totally-unwarranted insults to my diplomatic and open-minded post! for the record: i was not making any personal statement on freud's death-wish, but rather pointing out that I think (personal opinion, as stated politely above) the show is 100% doing that, unless you believe the scene with the moth & the flame follows the death-wish scene for....no purpose whatsoever? they just felt like including a scene with an insect and a light fixture cause that shit gets the audiences going? Also, the fact that psychoanalysis is diffuse throughout the show, and that Matt Weiner's previous writing credits were on the Sopranos, a show that is heavily, *heavily* psychoanalytic. So, again, not opining a personal feeling about it-- just interpreting the show, and was very open to alternative viewpoints and new insights-- was enjoying the discussion. (Footnote: Beyond the show's depiction, I actually agree with you and your post intellectually, and don't believe in Freud's Death-wish, don't feel its supported by any scientific evidence. I agree less with your desire to be insulting, state your opinion-as-fact, be dismissive af and oddly aggressive for no particular reason to a friendly post tho, etc. Cheers!)
Fair enough, and thank you for responding civilly. I think my point-of-view is: the show's validity/invalidity based on reality is separate from what the writers' intention is. Matthew Weiner, when writing this episode, was (in my opinion-- again) definitely using psychoanalytic (psychodynamic, at the least) symbolism. Whether or not psychoanalysis is scientifically sound in reality does not seem relevant (in this context), as I was simply referring to the writers' intentions. To your example re: gravity and physics-- that's a good point. In that instance, however, yes-- someone using the TV show as evidence for an otherwise-unsupported theory of gravity would be moronic, and indeed infuriating. But, nobody was saying "Psychoanalysis is true because Mad Men depicts it so," (or at least I wasn't)-- I was saying "Mad Men is a show that depicts psychoanalytic behavior" (or, to be wordier but more precise: "characters behaving according to psychoanalysis/psychoanalytic development)." Whether or not that theory is real, total bullshit, or somewhere-in-between wasn't in my response-- I was just highlighting the world of the show. I believe Mad Men is a show that illustrates personal behavior as heavily influenced by Freudian theory. Now, you and I may both disagree with his theories, but we aren't disagreeing that the show is displaying them as integral to character behavior. So basically, yes, we are in agreement-- the show is (in my opinion) modeling character behavior off some analytic theory/variation of Freud's theories (while indeed that may have no validity in reality or current psychological science). You feel me? Enjoyed your reply/the discussion. Cheers.
This shows the main problem in society today: If you tell someone that they're wrong, suddenly you're "pretentious," especially when you can prove that that someone is wrong.
@GabrielMartinez-zm9dg I don't have my own definition of wrong. I go by the actual definitions: (1) not correct and not true, (2) unjust, dishonest, immoral. So if I point out that someone is wrong about something, both definitions almost always apply. The person being criticized can call me pretentious all that he/she/they want, but if I can cite facts/historical precedent/other sources and they can't to support their position or argument by any similar means, they're wrong by Definition 1, and if my position causes no harm while their position causes potential harm to other people, they're wrong by Definiton 2. Let's apply these concepts: Republicans are usually wrong regarding a broad spectrum of topics per both aforementioned Definitions.
This has to be the most obtuse take I've heard in a very long time. A few seasons later, Don makes sure Sterling Cooper has a Psychologist (intellectual) as a long term consultant.
And then completely shuts her away at the end of said season for a woman much worse than her in pretty much every way except one. Faye was the perfect woman for Don, and that's why she never had a chance
Nothing pretentious about her at all. She isn't pretending to be intellectual, she is the real thing. And when you look at the pitch he eventually gives, he uses her insights to craft a campaign that goes right at human's weak spot - "the billboard on the side of the road that screams that what you're doing is okay." Without her work, he wouldn't know to BE that billboard. The bad part is that he is so disrespectful for no reason.
+Rebecca White We also know something else about what's going on: this is 1960. She came in as a woman and treated Don like they were equals. She had an argument and thought she was right. Don is ultimately right in how to approach the problem, but the way he treated her burns bridges and weakens a "team leader" in the end.
ronaldsanfran He acts like this with anybody who he doesn’t like or people suggesting something he doesn’t like. Playing the woman card here is making quick assumptions based on sex, which is sexist.
Um, she doesn't come across as a "pretentious intellectual" but, instead, a competent researcher who knows her shit and is trying to explain the facts to Don, who'd rather remain willfully ignorant and stick with the status quo.
GreenGretel Yes. this is an example of *Mansplaining*, not pretentious intellectual. The stuff she says about Freud and clinical studies is only seen as pretentious because its a woman saying it. The writers assumed that the audience would be sophisticated enough to see the sexism here. I mean, what she was saying was so reasonable and intuitive, that they had to give her a German accent -- so as to make her a bit more evil and so as not to make Don's misogyny make him unlikeable.
I always enjoyed the fact Don dismisses psychology every chance he gets but at the end during the group therapy session he breaks down and hugs the man telling his story. Its a statement on how men were supposed to be emotionless and strong back then which is why they look for other outlets with their emotions: sex, drugs, gambling.
Your interpretation is right on target. Prideful uninformed, misinformed people and/or people in denial can't tolerate being educated about psychological realities that will force them to reflect on their own behavior.
The crux of the scene is in Sal's dialogue: "we're supposed to believe that people are living one way and secretly thinking the exact opposite?". All the while that's his entire life as a gay man! Lol, the irony is that the intellectual is correct.
My favorite part was Sal being the one who states "So we're supposed to believe that people are living one way and secretly thinking the exact opposite? That's ridicules!" When I came back and watched this episode later I couldn't stop laughing about the irony of him saying that.
She was not right. She had a job to do. She could have pointed out what happening and then give them what they wanted. They were not interested in her moral report.
@@bighands69 It wasn't a moral report, they dismissed her because she was correct, specifically what she said coincidentally happened to apply to them as well. Despite that, her research happened to be dead-on accurate as the cigarette ads from the 60s and 70s showed.
Everyone here is missing the point. The advertising business in is about psychology whether its true or not. Every time you see an Ad its an attempt to manipulate you psychologically. You might be ashamed to admit it but I bet its worked a few times on you.
@Darth Malgus yupp, the advertisement would have benefitted the competitors as well as it would have been about the parent category of cigarettes, not about luckies
The hilarious bit is that Dr. Guttman was absolutely right about everything in this scene, and specifically about Don (death wish incarnate) and Sal (“people are living one way and secretly wishing the exact opposite”).
Of course there is irony in these two characters rejecting what she's saying. The point is she was suggesting an ad campaign for a cigarette company based around the "death wish". But when it comes up in the pitch meeting, it's utterly shut down. So she had a point, yet it was clearly the wrong approach precisely because of the behavior Don and Sal show here: people reject the deeply flawed or contradictory aspects of their lives. That's why advertising is important. You can't just throw heavy handed concepts at people and expect them to fall in line. You have to know how to influence. So Don and Sal failed to accept her research and what it personally revealed about themselves, but she too failed to recognize that they understood what drives people's actual behavior.
@@anthonyrusso6696 Sure, but a few seasons later when Don wrote the letter that he published in the New York Times, he said that he was finally able to sleep at night because he was done with tobacco.
@@courtneyshannon2621 That doesn't mean that her input was right for the campaign. Don only changed after years of misery and denial. The point of the exchange is to show that in order to be influential, it's not enough to be right, you have to sell people a vision of happiness.
given that "pretentious" means "attempting to impress by affecting greater importance, talent, culture, etc., than is actually possessed.", this clip is totally off the mark. She does not pretend to be an intellectual, she is a doctor of psychology. The men in this clip just don't care about scientific studies, and their moral compass is solidly pointing toward profits...which is the American way.
Just because something is proven scientifically one way or the other doesn't mean it's going to sell a product. If the psychology behind it is so veracious then it shouldn't be so difficult to come up with a way to exploit that. If you can't, then maybe it's not as relevant as you think it is.
@@scottwillie6389 They asked for that advice, they're whining that her study didn't give them the answer they wanted and she gave a possible jumping off point - not an ad, just something they could use. They whined more, so she leaves. Are people really so upset simply because she wasn't deferential to Don Draper?
20 years after ( minimum) the shit hit the fan, but thanks for your expert OPINION. Please feel free to enlighten us on the kid with the dry cleaners bag over his head and his mom smacks him for wrinkl
@@davidzwicker5662 wtf are you on about? all you managed here is looking like a douche. How does your second sentence even relate to what @james stuart wrote?
@@Schmuni it was a different time. The show has so many scenes of things that were so common at the time that today are completely unacceptable. Comments from a 2020 perspective on them are stupid.
The same people who idolize Draper and see every dissenting viewpoint in this show as 'pretentious intellectuals' are the ones who miss the whole point of the show. This lady is entirely in the right and Don is the epitome of this deathwish. It's pretentious of them to ignore psychological studies (I know about the stigmas of psychology back then, but still) on top of how they dismiss other perspectives (IE Peggy about advertising to women who don't fit in the Jackie/Marilyn template) until they realize its profitable to embrace them. The whole point of the show is that Don, who speaks, acts, and appears to be the classic self-made American role model, is anything but. He's a complete fraud who waltzed into a carreer by bullshitting, which he may not realize but he was only able to do because of his appearance as a put together white male. His job is then completely bullshitting, pulling a mood out of nothing and manipulating the use of a product for it to complete the consumer in some way. The reason he's so good at it is because his entire life is a facade, bullshitted to sell to the people around him. The dissenting opinions of the show are extremely important. like that of the hippies. While the hippies may seem less put together and ambitious than Don, they provide the criticisms of his entire lifestyle that this show was made to highlight. Don is not supposed to be a role model. I love his character because of the fact that he's a tragic, horrible person, but nobody should want to live a life as selfish as his. Calling the woman the pretentious one in this scene for offering factual statistics that Don basically dismissed before she walked in the room shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the moral of the story here.
I think the point of the clip was her owning him. The point was, just let them have their say, let your opinion be clear, and smile as they chase the shadows of burning money. It’s good advice for buisness or academia, and especially good for where these things meet. They cut the clip at her most cutting line, I really think that was the point of the the clip
Jesse Makua I get what your saying and somewhat agree, but telling someone to call you Dr is pretty pretentious though. You definitely can’t deny that.
@@ngpdreamteam2k4 it depends on the context. It is like if someone who you didn't know just started to act all friendly and sell you something. It is a respect thing to reestablish frame.
To your point: 1:05 says the guy who is closeted gay 1:30 says the guy who has a death wish as evidenced by his later suicide advertisement with the suit and shoes left on the beach and much more.
Jesse - Spot on. "Don Draper" isn't even his real name. He is an amoral grifter who appears to have the American Dream, but underneath the mask, he isn't anything of note. The ultimate nihilist who destroys everything he touches,. A true hollow man who was inadvertently responsible for two deaths, "Don Draper" was created to avoid the terrible consequences of his actions. This is the best observation of Don Draper to date. "Mad Men" is a magnificent series, one of the finest ever but it reminds me of Oscar Wilde's classic quote - "There are two kinds of tragedy. One is not getting what you want. The other is getting it."
Being a pretentious intellectual, I have to point out that while people were smoking before Freud, Freud's theories as applied by Freud's nephew (Edward Bernays) had some of the most significant advertising effects on smoking in American history. It was Bernays's add campaign that essentially broke down the taboo against women smoking in public, using psychology (trying the idea of smoking to women's empowerment in 1929)
When I was in High School I knew this kid named Ricky. Ricky was not book smart. He didn't get good grades in his academic classes. He took trade and learned autobody skills because he loved cars. He always loved cars. He could take cars apart with his eyes closed and then put then back together. He could tell you the make, model, and year of a car based on it's sound. Ricky probably failed his history and math classes. I'm assuming folks like you might call Ricky stupid or unintelligent. But Ricky knows more about cars than I will ever know. He's making good money working on them now and it's basically his love and his life. Is Ricky dumb? No. Intelligence is relative. It makes no sense to be the guy trying to know-it-all. That's wasteful and not practical if you think about it. What you can never ever know will always outweigh what you think you know by INFINITY. This means there will always be universes of information out there in the world that you don't know anything about. We all know nothing. Stop trying to win the intelligence game. Shut up. Open up your mind. You might just learn something this way. The worst people the ones walking around thinking they know everything and are smarter than everyone else. It's just a stupid endeavor and it's incredibly stupid to waste your energy constantly trying to prove how much you think you know.
+Cutie Jewliani i think intellectualism for the sake of learning and bettering yourself, but using your intellectual prowess to make other people feel small is dumb. i am the second person in my family to get a college degree.my parent only finished high school.they always told me that it was just as important to be street smart as well as book smart. my grandfather only had a fifth grade education, but was supremely mechanically inclined. he could fix anything. he read constantly and could make a ph.d look like a moron. it was stephen hawking who said that people who bragged about being intellectual superior to others were losers. i love to read and im a writer. but im not interested in being the smartest guy in the room.im just interested in knowing things i care about.
To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Rick and Morty. The humour is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of theoretical physics most of the jokes will go over a typical viewer's head. There's also Rick's nihilistic outlook, which is deftly woven into his characterisation- his personal philosophy draws heavily from Narodnaya Volya literature, for instance. The fans understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of these jokes, to realise that they're not just funny- they say something deep about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike Rick & Morty truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the humour in Rick's existential catchphrase "Wubba Lubba Dub Dub," which itself is a cryptic reference to Turgenev's Russian epic Fathers and Sons. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as Dan Harmon's genius wit unfolds itself on their television screens. What fools.. how I pity them. 😂 And yes, by the way, i DO have a Rick & Morty tattoo. And no, you cannot see it. It's for the ladies' eyes only- and even then they have to demonstrate that they're within 5 IQ points of my own (preferably lower) beforehand. Nothin personnel kid 😎
Sal: "So we're supposed to believe that people are living one way and secretly thinking the exact opposite? ThAt'S rIdIcUlOuS!" ^This quote ages hilariously.
Don is often wrong, but his confidence makes him sound right. I remember an episode when he says, "You can't tell how people are going to behave based upon how they have behaved.". Principles of persuasion 101, that's the best way to predict what people will do. He doesn't listen to research (Dr. Miller, the doctor here, etc) because they aren't telling him what he wants to hear.
He didn't listen because her research where worthless. The job is to sell the Lucky Strike brand, not cigarettes in general. The motivation are unimportant . A proper study would have explained why people had a preference for other brands of cigarette. No need to be a genius to understand why people are smoking. It's because they find the experience pleasurable. You do not need Freud in the explanation. That's where psychology matter: The medium is the message ! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_medium_is_the_message
@@omegaman7377 She did the job that she was hired to do & Don was an asshole over her final report b/c he assumed that it wasn't telling him what he thought he wanted to hear - some nugget he could use to impress the client & could rewrite to sound like he's the one that came up w/ the notion. The whole point of the scene was to illustrate both how much of a passive-aggressive asshole Don is & how contemptibly he treats those he considers his subordinates - he essentially considers him his property; remember how clasped-hands clenched-teeth & purple-viened pissed off he was when he couldn't talk Peggy out of leaving SCDP to take up what was in essence his position at a rival agency? He trashes - literally & figuratively - Dr. Miller's work b/c a.) it's not telling him what he wants to hear & b.) b/c Don has a Real Problem with any woman who's not ovulating over him & who can stick up for himself with complete confidence in the face of either his charm or bullying. Don's particular brand of bullying reminds me of the Bad Faith bullshitters I had to deal with when I worked retail; the one who assumed they could treat me like a serf b/c of the nature of my job & who would constantly ask the same question multiple different ways b/c they didn't like what I'd told them re a particular product. To repeat - Don is pulling approximately the same power-tripping here that Conrad Hyatt pulls on him to dress Don down in front of his coworkers later in the series. The power dynamics on display here play out consistently throughout the series - Don's the phony-fake who chanced into the position he currently occupies out of sheer bullshitting & not only maintains his current position b/c bullshtitting is the nature of the work & he excels at it, but gets away with his both his bullshtitting & treating the people around & under him like garbage b/c the margin of error afforded to him simply out of the fact that he's a tall, preternaturally handsome & (assumed) rich White Guy, Period. The people who worship John Hamm's Don Draper & hold him up as an Alpha Male Role Model to emulate are the same dolts that worship Fight Club's Tyler Durden for all the wrong reasons: the latter is a cautionary tale re what happens when you ignore what is genuinely important to you & when you fail to develop your Emotional Intelligence in favour of monetary & material success, & the former is a cautionary tale - spread out over eight seasons - of the emotional, social & even spiritual toll extracted from someone who's entire life is founded on One Big Lie, One Big Lie that gives rise to all the little lies that follow it & the energy demanded in the maintenance of those lies. It's why Don nearly lays into Cutler when Cutler calls Don out for being "a bully & a drunk", & why Don starts treating Sally with a level of respect he's almost never afforded anyone else - not only did she walk in on her Dad & their neighbour's wife balls-deep in each other but she made an observation about both Don & Betty & how much of The Benefit Of The Doubt her parent's preternatural Good Looks give them, how unearned their level cachet is & how much & how subtly her parents manipulate that clout to their advantage, especially from seeing the way her all-female group of schoolgirl friends interact with Don at the dinner table of the restaurant that he'd taken them out to dinner to: "When people pay attention to you - which they inevitably do - you both start to Ooze".
@@morganbeare1764 I usually take the guys side in these situations but not in this case. The doctor DID do her job, but Don didn't know how to sell it, so she did a bad job according to him. They were asking for the moon from her as it was. I remember an episode where the firm brought in a couple of young guys to tap into the younger generation and Don dismissed them out of hand even though he hadn't heard any of their ideas.
Elizabeth Newton Yeah, MM writers were the masters of the Double Entendre....and it's mirrored EVERYWHERE in the political world - just ask Dennis Hastert ;-)
Eric da' MAJ true, this is a great scene though. It says more about who Don Draper and his college are than it does about the German psychiatrist... and says a whole lot about the person who admires the science denier in this scenario. Don Draper: great character, poor role model.
And you seem like a person who has a high opinion of themselves and likes to be condescending. Then when you get called out on it and shunned you lash out and claim “it’s because they’re jealous. 😥😥😥😥”
Totally Bored That’s a lot to determine about a person whom you know next to nothing about. I never said that the brief assumption that I make influences how I deal with them. I understand that the assumption is not always correct, it’s just an assumption, though it has proved to be true for the majority of the time I actually find out more about the person. More often I simply over hear it so I don’t learn anything substantial about them and therefor it just remains an assumption. The logic behind my assumption is clear as intellect is to be admired and not shamed, yours seems predicated on not liking what I had to say which seems far from logical and more a case of bias. If I am wrong I am open to a sensible argument as to why, if not then I hope you reevaluate your opinion. Thank You
Assume away, but in this case, a medical researcher goes to a marketing firm and gives marketing advice. Textbook pretension. It's not complicated enough to require great intelligence. She's over her skis.
"Cigarettes are part of American life, or too good to give up. Or most appealing: An assertion of independence." She pretty much nailed it there. That is exactly the relationship between Tobacco and America that stands today.
@@Dragonfury3000 That was true in the 70's and 80's for sure, but in the Mad Med context of the 50's - that's when cigarette ads used to brag about doctor's endorsements and whatnot. Seeing the ads in old copies of Life magazine, it's insane. The doctor was 100% correct, just ahead of her time. I don't see how you could transition from campaigns like "Remember your ABC's... Always Buy Chesterfields: The No 1. brand on college campuses" to pictures of the Marlborough Cowboy smoking himself into an early grave but being 'independent' and 'rejecting authority'
Not at all. She had a job to do for an advertising agency and she did not do it. Don's work for agency was for the tobacco company not the doctors morals.
@@bighands69 Bighand that doesn't make any sense. She did the research and provided the evidence. She kept the information confidential, and it is up to the advertising agency to do with the research as they wish, since they paid for it. I see zero issues with what she did.
We know from history that the researcher had a really good point, because the Marlboro man was a very successful campaign that came at this exact angle.
"Episode one finishes with Don and Pete pitching to the Garners from Lucky Strike. After Don flounders, Pete picks up the Freudian report that Don had put in his bin and tries to promote the deathwish campaign (which, as Marlboro County proved, was actually viable), but older Garner rejects it out of hand, leaving a furious Don to pick up the pieces..." - Excerpt from an article in the Guardian, which i found with a rudimentary google search "mad men deathwish marlboro"
@@Bubbles99718 They went through different models because it was just a character in ad campaign. Some Marlboro Men died much later in life of cancer or heart disease, but those are two of the most common forms of death whether you smoke or not. The whole point of the Marlboro Man campaign was to convince men that filtered cigarettes (which everyone at the time assumed were healthier) were "manly". Prior to that point, only women smoked filtered cigarettes. Men smoked unfiltered. The Marlboro Man changed all that and made it socially acceptable for men to ditch unfiltered cigarettes. So it was the total opposite of what the OP suggested. It wasn't about promoting a death wish. It was about convincing men that switching to healthier* filtered cigs didn't make you a Nancy. And it worked! Filtered cigarettes became the norm for men. *Modern research has found they aren't actually all that healthier at all because benefits of the reduction in tar provided by the filters are cancelled out by the toxic chemicals found in the paper used to make the filters! But nobody knew that at the time.
The funny part is that the doctor was 100 percent right and anyone with half a brain who's carefully watched Mad Men from start to finish can see it as one big confirmation of what Freud proposed about the Death Drive. Don Draper lives a life of quiet of desperation pretending to be happy all while exhibiting self-destructive tendencies.
I'm afraid you're not being specific enough about how this is so. If his writings on human psychology are as "rejected", "butchered", or "discredited" then how are they still so influential? Take this show as one obvious example.
I see. So when you say his works are "rejected" you mean by the scientific community, not by society at large. I still don't agree. There isn't a consensus opinion on this issue. Psychoanalysis still has a strong following in the humanities and social sciences.
I am sorry but this is a strawman argument. Neuroscientists are still grappling with much of Freudian psychoanalysis. There is even a school of neuro-psychoanalysis.
Used to handle a big tobacco client regionally for 13 years, we actually paid a lot of attention to people like her. We didn't bin stuff like that - it goes straight to the strat team.
Such great writing: 1:05 says the guy who is closeted gay 1:30 says the guy who has a death wish as evidenced by his later suicide advertisement with the suit and shoes left on the beach. I fear we will not see writing this stellar for a long long time.
Also, the show never actually tells you outright who's right and who's wrong. In retrospect, you could even deduce that it just shows Don (who is smoking in that scene, by the way) not wanting to believe that he himself has a death wish.
Every time one of these “How To Handle” videos from this channel pops up in my video recs, it turns out to be an entirely mundane workplace disagreement depicted in the show. It just SEEMS like wisdom bc the uploader clearly puts too much stock in the morality of fictional characters
Three of my grandparents died from lung cancer, all three of them suffered terribly through chemotherapy, and wasted away to nothing, dying slowly, and the one thing they all had in common was they thought smoking wouldn't hurt them.
@@larrybarberio2777 Pretentious:attempting to impress by affecting greater importance, talent, culture, etc., than is actually possessed. Don is the smartest and most competent character in the show, so you can't really call him pretentious. He presents himself a certain way, but do you really think he cares what people think of him? I think maybe you just don't understand what pretentious means yourself.
"Sir, I have that climate change report you asked me for." "Give me that!" Throws it into the garbage. "Get out, you're fired!" Buzzes secretary. "I've decided to leave for the Met early tonight. Have a gondola waiting for me at 6."
From Don's perspective she's pretentious because he didn't know what the hell she was talking about, much less knew about Freud. It's more ignorance speaking.
There’s a difference between being pretentious and being intelligent. She’s not trying to impress them, she’s doing her job and reporting what she finds. It’s not her fault whether they like it or not.
As the series ended, I was a little disappointed that it did with the Don Draper/Dick Whitman lie still intact, suggesting he'd get away with it the rest of his life. As he explained once to Pete, it's desertion, and always actionable under military law. While Don maintains the ruse, it's also an on-going crime. Had he come up the landmark, hillside Coke commercial, as the ending suggests, the added fame and success could foster equally added danger to Don. What I'm glad about is that the show never had Don sleeping with either Joan or Peggy. Over seven seasons, we watched Peggy struggle mightily to find her way and pull her psyche together. It could all come apart had she taken on Don's skeletons too. And the last thing Joan needed was another hound trying to get her dress off. In subtly different ways, and not without some contentious rounds, each woman had something of a protective, and mostly reliable big-brother's affection from Don which was far more fascinating.
I think it’s pretty clear that Joan wanted Don and got pretty close a time or two in the first seven seasons. They do finally get it on in Season 8 though. You’ll see...
I was more sad he went back to advertising. He had enough money to retire, he hated working at McCann and he was on this great mission for self-discovery. And it turned out it was effectively a research mission for a Coca-Cola ad.
This is one of the things that makes a show great, clever irony 1:04 to 1:11" so were suppose to believe that people are living one way and secretly thinking the opposite, thats ridiculous". Say's the gay man who's married to a women.
Years later Don Draper, breathing with the help of an oxygen apparatus recalls this very meeting. A lonely tear falls from his eye as he looks over at a picture of his wife.
The layers of text, subtext, context, and history in this are delightfully enjoyable. We see how Don handles bad news and how actually focuses on the problem. The writing this scene is so sublime. This needs to be taught as a class for negotiation.
I just realized the writers knew all along that Sal is going to be gay... if I recall this is the first episode, and incidentally Sal says the line in this scene... wow genius!!
He is referring to the fact that Sal says "People are living one way and secretly thinking the exact opposite? That's ridiculous" he is referring to himself, and his facade of being straight, while secretly being homosexual. This is foreshadowing to the later reveal of that information.
Haha what do you mean forshadowing if you were to take a room full of bets if that guy was gay then this scene would net you damn near everyone betting on yes
Her analysis of the untenability of health arguments is spot on for the time, and her Freudian theory of the death wish is a plausible explanation for the reason people smoke. [Although, Freud was pushing a lot of nonsense in general. Also, the death wish thesis requires that all those smokers in 1960 actually knew and believed it was deadly. The thesis works better now.] But Don is also right- they need an argument that makes people smoke, and smoke a specific brand.
Some of what Freud postulated had a grain of truth at best and he overstated the importance of some of his hypotheses/theories. Freud nevertheless revolutionized the field of psychology, practically inventing it. Therefore, rather than looking to tear down his contributions, we all owe him a debt of gratitude for greatly increasing understanding of the human psyche and motivations.
Your comment is the best I’ve seen under this video so far. Yes, what she said was correct but it doesn’t really matter because they need advertisement and not „truth“.
(1:05) Yes, I noticed that as well. Also, him immediately looking away after saying it is defensive as far as body language goes. Someone who looks away after dismissing an idea (or an accusation) as "ridiculous" or "absurd" is trying to change the subject, looking elsewhere to direct attention off of that idea or accusation, and by extension, taking attention off of themselves as well. In a way, the body language is doing the classic "Hey! What's that over there!" The actor (Bryan Batt) portrayed that reaction perfectly.
it's crazy rewatching these scenes again after finishing the show. when you first start you just have a certain impression of these characters and as the show progresses they evolve with you.
The most interesting thing is that using the death wish and individualism angle to sell cigarettes is what worked. The Marlboro Man was what created the most powerful cigarette brand.
The irony of this scene is that Don had already fulfilled his own death wish by killing Dick Whitman, his former self. The doctor's role in this scene is to implicitly remind us of that.
Wow nice, good point. And finally, a comment with something to consider besides the same crying comment about OP’s clickbait title for the 2000th time.
From my blog... "In the 1920’s Freud’s cousin Edward Louis Bernays was often called the “father of public relations” (Edward bernays 2018), the big man of New York advertising. He called upon cousin Freud to sell Lucky Strike cigarettes. The same brand associated with Mad Men. From this day on, it is no wonder Ms Menken walks into the advertising office with her torch, for it was Bernays who advertised smoking for women with his “Torches of Freedom” (Curtis 2016 ) slogan. It featured “across the united states and around the world” (Jackson in Curtis 2016 ). Mad Men episodes continue to use Freud references on many layers. For example, Freud’s death urge, Thanatos, is cited as a tool to advertise. Though on screen Don Draper rejects the idea of the death urge, the series leaves an ironic image of all possible shots littered with smoking. Another infamous Freudian signature phrase. “What does woman want” (Freud in Andre, 1999 p. 11)? is used many times by Don Draper. So as Ms Menken carries her torch of freedom, it has many meanings, connections and relations."
SOmetimes I like to imagine what late 60's season 7 Don would say to season 1 Don. Honestly think he may just spit his drink on him. The level of disdain would be that high.
They were both correct. The research lady was right about the long-term prospects for smoking; Don was right in that she was addressing completely the wrong audience.
The psychologist was not pretentious. She was just doing her job, trying to use science in a way that would appeal to the client. That's what she's paid to do. And it sets up Don's revelation nicely: Advertising is about happiness, and people who want to be happy will believe anything you want them to believe.
He dismisses her research and then goes on to watch a fly in a ceiling light and dream of fighting in Korea. That said, he's also right in saying that the client wouldn't accept the proposal, and the public probably would balk at it.
I thought she handled the two pretentious intellectuals very well: she gave them the facts straight, held her ground through their disbelief, and even though they seemed to reject what she said, she never coddled either man that what they believed was somehow more 'true' than the cold, hard facts.
Both sides handled the situation the right way from their point of view. She did stick to the cold, hard facts. Cigarettes are bad for you and more and more people were figuring that out. But the ad men stuck to their job, how to convince people to buy Lucky Strikes, and telling people cigarettes were going to kill them was a bad idea for growing that business.
This scene provides background for the entire show. Advertising is not predicated on providing product information to consumers so that they can make rational decisions. If it was, nobody would ever make a decision to smoke cigarettes. By introducing Freud, the doctor in this scene is telling us that advertising should work to affect our unconscious desires, so that by choosing a particular product we feel better about ourselves, able to self-actualize into our ideal selves. This is consistent with the actual history of advertising, largely influenced in the US through the work of Edward Bernays, the American nephew of Sigmund Freud, who utilized his uncle's ideas. Bernays began his career during WW I creating "propaganda" for the US and then morphed that into "Public Relations." His seminal work in advertising began in the 1920's when he was able to break through the taboo against women smoking cigarettes in public by linking liberty, a patriotic value, with women's aspirations toward a better life. "Torches of freedom" was the catchphrase for cigarettes as symbols of emancipation and equality with men. This advertising campaign opened up a new market to tobacco companies, hitherto unexploited. Mad Men, as a show, is telling us that we do not buy products because we need them, but because we want them, and we want them because we have been backdoored through our unconscious desires, individuals' dangerous libidinal energies, the psychic and emotional energy associated with instinctual biological drives that Bernays viewed as inherently dangerous, that could be harnessed and channeled by a corporate elite for economic benefit. Don Draper is completely wrong in this scene, as he is completely driven by his unconscious, uncontrollable desires, despite his appearance of a well-managed individual. Don has a knack for tapping into the deep emotions that sell products, but he is unscientific, and his refusal to accept the science behind advertising is his refusal to know himself.
Хобби
Imagine completely missing the point and letting all of RUclips know about it.
This anti-intellectual wave is supported by people who feel uncomfortable when confronted with facts.
@@niblicksben and people who are too lazy to read past headlines to actually learn about the world
Ben Mccrory some folks clutch their ego too closely to their intellect if you ask me. Distorts their perception on other aspects of life. You know some folks package intelligence-with a bad attitude and they can be so annoying
Well it sucks to be surrounded by idiots all the time.
Would they even know the difference?
She's the exact opposite of a pretentious intellectual. She's to the point, communicates effectively, finds data to support her conclusion and stands by i
She's fantastic in this scene and in the lipstick testing scene. She's a foil to both Don and Joan.
She is actually an intellectual while Drapper on this crazy negationist and dumb on this scene xD
She's also German. Thinking outside the box isn't her strong suit, but her knowledge is valuable to understand public perception and overcoming those hurdles as the science becomes more clear.
Mad men will unfortunately be a point of history that sits with the people that like it the most and the most vocally, are the same demographic that just doesn't get the point of the show
Sometimes when you think you’re dealing with a pretentious intellectual you’re actually just talking to someone who knows more than you
Most times, really
Unless they have a british accent
Most intellectuals are pretentious, but that doesn't mean they aren't smarter than you or correct about what they say. Putting more importance on yourself and your ideas than they are worth doesn't mean they are worth less than the competition.
So true
@Juice She wasn't advocating for that at all. Her idea was to sidestep the medical talk all together and focus on something people were already thinking that they cared more about them how harmful cigarettes were. It was a really good approach that cigarette companies in real life used in the 70s and 80s. Heck to some extent anti-maskers from early in the pandemic we're doing something similar, that there's something patriotic about being "free" enough to go in the opposite direction of professional doctor's recommendations. Eventually Don uses his Galaxy-class ego to drum up enough attention to get the company some money to keep the lights on, but if he just listened to this Doctor he'd have been way better off as the number one cigarette advertiser ever.
You know being pretentious doesn't mean knowing about things, right?
She's actually razor sharp and focused.
Lmao
By American standards she's totally being pretentious (you know, knowing stuff is kind of uncool there)....
@@Professicchio, great observation - it reminded me of this clip:
ruclips.net/video/ZptMIcdCcpI/видео.html
@@mbrady2329 Nathan Barley, well ahead of its time.
@Thegame .Dev Meh so the title of this clip is a little inaccurate. The woman was kind of arrogant with her knowledge and not understanding how advertising is about selling souls with persuasion not convincing people with facts.
The whole point of this scene is that she's essentially right and it's bitterly ironic in the context of who these two men are.
She was not right. She had a job to do and did not do it. Her moral position had no bearing.
@@bighands69 LOL, bighand repeats the same answer her like 10x people.
@@bighands69 She was objectively right, look at the massively successful cigarette slogans of the two decades after this (ALL about independence, think Marlboro man for instance, all appealing to independence, American cowboyism, etc), and then Draper was a huge dick to her, literally throwing all of her and her team's hard work in the garbage can, simply because he stubbornly though he knew better.
This scene is one of those where there are deliberate values dissonance scenes (like when certain characters say stuff like "Well OBVIOUSLY Nixon is gonna win, that Kennedy is just a kid!!"), we're supposed to chuckle and how naive Don is being.
The irony is that their entire field of work (advertising aka propaganda) was born from Freud via Edward Bernais.
@@JB-xl2jc yeah this show is one of the most CLEAREST examples of "you didn't get it if you idolized them" and so many people still do
I love the people who seem to think the overall theme of Mad Men is Don being a cool guy for 7 seasons
It is not Don is just like us
@@f.boogaloospook2318 Don is a sociopath that destroyed his family for nothing.
I’m watchful/horrified that self-made Don Drapper is what American men tell themselves they are & he is deeply unhappy. When he casually derails the women in his life (his wifes/co-workers) we breath a sign of relief b/c as a ‘good’ man; he did not kill/beat them.
Don is a total narcissist and I think they legit can't help it.
Yeah I knew a lot of guys that loved this show because Don got so much pussy
She’s pretty spot on about Don. Much of his behaviour through the series seemed motivated by a perverse desire to sabotage the perfect life he’s manufactured for himself.
The 'perfect' life or American dream isn't enough for him. I would say that he wants to have his cake and eat it. He wants to live a double life and try to preserve it at all costs.
@@007mercyme There's a world of difference in thinking a perfect life isn't enough, and realizing that the simple image of a perfect life, being happy all the time and smiling, only speaks to a part of the human experience, and to deny or suppress and hide the dark from your spouse will destroy that relationship and that "perfect" life. His wife clearly isn't the right woman for him, or rather their relationship, social norms, and gender roles at that time place husband and wife in boxes with no room to explore and share the darker aspects of life with each other. They are just supposed to smile and be happy all the time, and THAT's what's not enough.
I feel like that was the message of the entire series. Now I know that I'm not the only one that thinks that. 👍
Yes, the main theme of this show is Don is making himself miserable trying for the life he thinks he’s supposed to have or want. But none of it makes him happy.
I think it's more the "appearance of a perfect life". He seemed pretty miserable through the whole series.
This is incredible You completely missed the point of what happened here.... Absolutely embarrassing. The writer even screams it at the viewer by having Sal say "So people are living one way while secretly wanting the opposite?" which is a *direct nod because Sal in the show is a gay man living as a straight man married to a woman.* They basically yelled this at viewers and the creator of this video STILL missed the point. 😂 Not even the hidden dislikes can help you here bro.
There are alternate, non-Freudian explanations for people's shadow. Freud isn't as convincing nor as slam-dunk of a psychologist as every two-bit amazing atheist seems to think that he is.
@@JayVal90 how is that even a response to this comment?
@@JayVal90 "2-bit" is pretty ironic here.
I honestly can't tell which one of them is supposed to be the "pretentious intellectual." I really thought it was the guy in the suit until he just completely dismisses actual research out-of-hand at the end. I think the uploader is just a caveman lol
@@wisdomsnap8695 The research that the woman presents is based off of Freudian psychology. This was controversial at the time of this show’s setting, and still is despite all of the research that has taken place. The only way you think of this as a slam dunk is if you cherry pick the research that you like in one of the most notorious fields for reaching soft scientific conclusions.
Three Steps To Success:
1) Hire people smarter than you
2) Tell them their ideas suck
3) Take credit for their ideas
I was going to correct this misconception, but then I realized that if I let more people think this way I have a better shot of stealing away all the best talent.
*cough cough Bill Gates, Thomas Edison...
"I was gonna keep my mouth shut, and then I opened it anyways"
Mr. W You don't have shit.
Gregg Silk i like that idea
If this is the kind of person you consider "pretentious", you must not be a very bright person to begin with.
Yeah more like a Karen
@@andyhops6175 not even a karen
To assume that people have death wish while smoking a cigarette is one thing, but to think it's a good Idea to put it on a billboard is another. She's pretentious because she seems to think she has a better idea than Don but in fact her idea, as true as it may be, is the dumbest thing you can suggest to a client.
@@SplinterAce She was not promoting a marketing idea, she was reporting her findings.
@@andrewvelonis5940 She was suggesting an ad campaign based on her findings, which is Don's job. Not hers. And that's incredibly arrogant and pretentious. Her job is to dig up the facts and present them as they stand. His job is to spin it into something that the people will want to hear so it doesn't hurt sales. Doing it her way would have tanked sales hard.
Her facts were well founded and based on cold, hard evidence. It just so happens that said evidence was incredibly bad for business and thus useless to Don.
Also how did Don even “handle” her? He paid her for her advice, she gave it, and he chose to ignore it. He didn’t win anything, she would’ve still gotten paid
If anything he did himself a disservice. The ad campaign she suggested WAS the one used throughout the 70s and 80s, think about that lone cowboy doing what he does on every Marlboro poster you saw. Acknowledging the death wish and shifting the narrative to defiance to modern understanding and holding onto traditional in the face of objective facts. Look at the anti mask and anti vax movements calling everyone sheep while doctors point out how wrong they are.
In fairness 1950s USA probably wasn't as willing to be as risky with advertising. Whilst in the 70s and 80s was a much more open time for advertising so running those ads in the 1950s might have been an awful idea
@@gatfatf Anti-Mask movements aren't anti-science.
The exact same people who said Trump was hitler because his CDC advised Masking and Vax were the same ones calling you a nazi if you refused a mask and Vax in the first place.
@@AlyssMa7rin Does everything have to revolve around trump with you people? Go back to parler and let the grown-ups talk.
@@edwardgiovannelli5191 You've done an excellent job of ignoring the substance of what I said, instead resorting to an attack on my character. Have a good day.
Sal: “So, we’re supposed to believe that people are living one way and secretly thinking the exact opposite? That’s ridiculous...”
Said gay man so deep in the closet he’s married to a woman who wants children.
Intended irony
Hah yeah never spotted that before XD
Hahahahaha! 😂😂😂
No I am sure that was intentional. By the makers of the show I mean, to show the hypocrisy and defense.
@@saberseesall Interesting insight Joe.
The title doesn't make sense. Seriously, how is she pretentious? It was Don who seemed to fit in that segment. Unless this title is really about Don, but i fail to see that.
+lulubeloo
Sort of. In the show, Don was pretentious because he actually appealed to a lot of things that are now considered scientific advertising psychology fact, all the while he was dismissing psychology as hogwash. The title doesn't really make sense for a lot of reasons. You could say he was sort of right about her being overly focused on selling cigarettes as opposed to selling her brand of cigarettes(if you take out the context she mentioned - which is the fear of cigarette sales going down because of mandatory warning labels), but then again, if no one is buying cigarettes at all, it doesn't matter whose brand they're not buying. And on the other hand, it IS pretentious to throw around the ideas of some academic and imply that they are right solely on the basis that they are the ideas of an academic. Though factually; Freud turned out to be right about some things and wrong about others, and a lot of people don't realize that. When they talk about subconscious drives - not much in that regard was in any way proven at the time. But we now have studies that show warning labels do nothing to reduce cigarette sales, and even have the reverse effect.
+lulubeloo It's just someone admire Don a bit too much!
ok, i see, i see..
since when is Vienna in Germany?
The doctor had both Sal and Don pegged,
living one way and thinking the exact opposite.
Later in this episode,
Don says he’s living like there’s no tomorrow because there isn’t one.
There’s the death wish.
She’s not pretentious.
She just is too close to the bone and doesn’t think like a creative mad man...
This scene can be interpreted in a variety of ways, as evidenced by the comments below, but, in my opinion, you really can't discuss this scene without discussing the scene that closely follows it, i.e: Don lying down to take a nap, and as he does so, he watches a fly in the light fixture above him, i.e., a modernized version of the expression "a moth drawn to flame." The death drive, the death wish. They even do a close-up of the shot to further illustrate this. Cue six seasons of Don struggling with self-destructive tendencies, characters living one way and thinking another, etc.-- just what the doctor described. It's a brilliant show, and they focus heavily on symbolism (just like the Sopranos). Liberal or conservative, or anything, if you think this scene is *solely* about the doctor being pretentious and Don being correct to dismiss her intellectual ideas, I would opine that you may have missed some of what I believe to be the key elements of the series. (Genuinely) great discussion, all-- cheers!
^^
+nystateofmind53 Not to mention Sal's statement "We're supposed to believe that people are living one way and secretly thinking the exact opposite? That's ridiculous." (At 1:04) It was obvious even at this point in the show that Sal was a closeted gay man, and the first time I saw it, it came off to me as almost ham-fisted in making its point that our Austrian psychoanalyst is completely correct.
God damn, man. A+
kewl, thx 4 ur rly constructive insight and totally-unwarranted insults to my diplomatic and open-minded post!
for the record: i was not making any personal statement on freud's death-wish, but rather pointing out that I think (personal opinion, as stated politely above) the show is 100% doing that, unless you believe the scene with the moth & the flame follows the death-wish scene for....no purpose whatsoever? they just felt like including a scene with an insect and a light fixture cause that shit gets the audiences going?
Also, the fact that psychoanalysis is diffuse throughout the show, and that Matt Weiner's previous writing credits were on the Sopranos, a show that is heavily, *heavily* psychoanalytic. So, again, not opining a personal feeling about it-- just interpreting the show, and was very open to alternative viewpoints and new insights-- was enjoying the discussion.
(Footnote: Beyond the show's depiction, I actually agree with you and your post intellectually, and don't believe in Freud's Death-wish, don't feel its supported by any scientific evidence. I agree less with your desire to be insulting, state your opinion-as-fact, be dismissive af and oddly aggressive for no particular reason to a friendly post tho, etc. Cheers!)
Fair enough, and thank you for responding civilly. I think my point-of-view is: the show's validity/invalidity based on reality is separate from what the writers' intention is. Matthew Weiner, when writing this episode, was (in my opinion-- again) definitely using psychoanalytic (psychodynamic, at the least) symbolism. Whether or not psychoanalysis is scientifically sound in reality does not seem relevant (in this context), as I was simply referring to the writers' intentions.
To your example re: gravity and physics-- that's a good point. In that instance, however, yes-- someone using the TV show as evidence for an otherwise-unsupported theory of gravity would be moronic, and indeed infuriating. But, nobody was saying "Psychoanalysis is true because Mad Men depicts it so," (or at least I wasn't)-- I was saying "Mad Men is a show that depicts psychoanalytic behavior" (or, to be wordier but more precise: "characters behaving according to psychoanalysis/psychoanalytic development)." Whether or not that theory is real, total bullshit, or somewhere-in-between wasn't in my response-- I was just highlighting the world of the show. I believe Mad Men is a show that illustrates personal behavior as heavily influenced by Freudian theory. Now, you and I may both disagree with his theories, but we aren't disagreeing that the show is displaying them as integral to character behavior.
So basically, yes, we are in agreement-- the show is (in my opinion) modeling character behavior off some analytic theory/variation of Freud's theories (while indeed that may have no validity in reality or current psychological science). You feel me? Enjoyed your reply/the discussion. Cheers.
This shows the main problem in society today: If you tell someone that they're wrong, suddenly you're "pretentious," especially when you can prove that that someone is wrong.
zaza
I don't know man, do you really think its the main problem?
I don't know man, do you really think its the main problem?
It depends of your definition of "wrong"
@GabrielMartinez-zm9dg I don't have my own definition of wrong. I go by the actual definitions: (1) not correct and not true, (2) unjust, dishonest, immoral. So if I point out that someone is wrong about something, both definitions almost always apply. The person being criticized can call me pretentious all that he/she/they want, but if I can cite facts/historical precedent/other sources and they can't to support their position or argument by any similar means, they're wrong by Definition 1, and if my position causes no harm while their position causes potential harm to other people, they're wrong by Definiton 2. Let's apply these concepts: Republicans are usually wrong regarding a broad spectrum of topics per both aforementioned Definitions.
This has to be the most obtuse take I've heard in a very long time. A few seasons later, Don makes sure Sterling Cooper has a Psychologist (intellectual) as a long term consultant.
This was posted well before that season was out, to be fair
And then completely shuts her away at the end of said season for a woman much worse than her in pretty much every way except one. Faye was the perfect woman for Don, and that's why she never had a chance
Nothing pretentious about her at all. She isn't pretending to be intellectual, she is the real thing. And when you look at the pitch he eventually gives, he uses her insights to craft a campaign that goes right at human's weak spot - "the billboard on the side of the road that screams that what you're doing is okay." Without her work, he wouldn't know to BE that billboard. The bad part is that he is so disrespectful for no reason.
+Rebecca White actually the reason is probably how she talks the moment she steps into the room. That probably pissed Don off
+Rebecca White We also know something else about what's going on: this is 1960. She came in as a woman and treated Don like they were equals. She had an argument and thought she was right. Don is ultimately right in how to approach the problem, but the way he treated her burns bridges and weakens a "team leader" in the end.
Actually he got that idea from Pete. While they looked at him like hes fucking crazy but then he got a really good idea from it.
ronaldsanfran He acts like this with anybody who he doesn’t like or people suggesting something he doesn’t like. Playing the woman card here is making quick assumptions based on sex, which is sexist.
You're absolutely wrong. Campbell tried her idea and it bombed. Don went a completely different way. He didn't use any of her insights.
Um, she doesn't come across as a "pretentious intellectual" but, instead, a competent researcher who knows her shit and is trying to explain the facts to Don, who'd rather remain willfully ignorant and stick with the status quo.
But still sooooo HOT!!!!
GreenGretel This is what ignorant people think pretentiousness is - anyone smarter than them.
GreenGretel Yes. this is an example of *Mansplaining*, not pretentious intellectual. The stuff she says about Freud and clinical studies is only seen as pretentious because its a woman saying it. The writers assumed that the audience would be sophisticated enough to see the sexism here. I mean, what she was saying was so reasonable and intuitive, that they had to give her a German accent -- so as to make her a bit more evil and so as not to make Don's misogyny make him unlikeable.
James Brown
Or maybe you're reading to much into it?
I think that's what Don Draper would say in 1965..... ;)
I always enjoyed the fact Don dismisses psychology every chance he gets but at the end during the group therapy session he breaks down and hugs the man telling his story. Its a statement on how men were supposed to be emotionless and strong back then which is why they look for other outlets with their emotions: sex, drugs, gambling.
Your interpretation is right on target. Prideful uninformed, misinformed people and/or people in denial can't tolerate being educated about psychological realities that will force them to reflect on their own behavior.
The crux of the scene is in Sal's dialogue: "we're supposed to believe that people are living one way and secretly thinking the exact opposite?". All the while that's his entire life as a gay man! Lol, the irony is that the intellectual is correct.
Indeed. Sal's so deep in the closet that he knows what all the Jewish & Muslim kids are getting for Christmas for the the next hundred years.
My favorite part was Sal being the one who states "So we're supposed to believe that people are living one way and secretly thinking the exact opposite? That's ridicules!" When I came back and watched this episode later I couldn't stop laughing about the irony of him saying that.
That’s exactly why it was written into the scene 😀
Turns out almost everyone's a hypocrite
She's ultimately right. There's a reason the series opening credits feature Don spiralling through his downfall.
She was not right. She had a job to do. She could have pointed out what happening and then give them what they wanted. They were not interested in her moral report.
@Marlinchen she isn't supposed to do draper's job. She did what he wanted and asked.
@@bighands69 It wasn't a moral report, they dismissed her because she was correct, specifically what she said coincidentally happened to apply to them as well. Despite that, her research happened to be dead-on accurate as the cigarette ads from the 60s and 70s showed.
@@voodoocircuit2540 can you think of any examples?
Everyone here is missing the point. The advertising business in is about psychology whether its true or not. Every time you see an Ad its an attempt to manipulate you psychologically. You might be ashamed to admit it but I bet its worked a few times on you.
You’re right. She handled Don Draper very well.
Jordan Santacana well said!
@Darth Malgus yupp, the advertisement would have benefitted the competitors as well as it would have been about the parent category of cigarettes, not about luckies
Your dumb
lmao no she didnt simp
@beardedcollie39 yes he is. He just isn’t pretentious
The hilarious bit is that Dr. Guttman was absolutely right about everything in this scene, and specifically about Don (death wish incarnate) and Sal (“people are living one way and secretly wishing the exact opposite”).
Of course there is irony in these two characters rejecting what she's saying. The point is she was suggesting an ad campaign for a cigarette company based around the "death wish". But when it comes up in the pitch meeting, it's utterly shut down. So she had a point, yet it was clearly the wrong approach precisely because of the behavior Don and Sal show here: people reject the deeply flawed or contradictory aspects of their lives. That's why advertising is important. You can't just throw heavy handed concepts at people and expect them to fall in line. You have to know how to influence.
So Don and Sal failed to accept her research and what it personally revealed about themselves, but she too failed to recognize that they understood what drives people's actual behavior.
@@anthonyrusso6696 Sure, but a few seasons later when Don wrote the letter that he published in the New York Times, he said that he was finally able to sleep at night because he was done with tobacco.
@@courtneyshannon2621 That doesn't mean that her input was right for the campaign. Don only changed after years of misery and denial. The point of the exchange is to show that in order to be influential, it's not enough to be right, you have to sell people a vision of happiness.
given that "pretentious" means "attempting to impress by affecting greater importance, talent, culture, etc., than is actually possessed.", this clip is totally off the mark. She does not pretend to be an intellectual, she is a doctor of psychology. The men in this clip just don't care about scientific studies, and their moral compass is solidly pointing toward profits...which is the American way.
I think that in this case " Pretentious intellectual " is code for " someone smarter than me ".
Although Freud wasn't especially scientific.
1:56 They *did* listen to her advice, and it backfired on them.
That's not exclusively an American trait my friend.
Just because something is proven scientifically one way or the other doesn't mean it's going to sell a product. If the psychology behind it is so veracious then it shouldn't be so difficult to come up with a way to exploit that. If you can't, then maybe it's not as relevant as you think it is.
I must have missed something. He hired a doctor to do research. That's what she did. She's not an ad person. She's a doctor.
I think maybe he took offense at her suggestions as to how to pitch it. Because as you said, she was only hired to do the research.
She was being antagonistic, more a slight misuse of the word pretentious.
He hired her to do research. She was giving him marketing advice, which she knows nothing about.
@JBryan314
It is their business not hers. She had a job to do if she was unhappy with it she should not have been there.
@@scottwillie6389 They asked for that advice, they're whining that her study didn't give them the answer they wanted and she gave a possible jumping off point - not an ad, just something they could use.
They whined more, so she leaves.
Are people really so upset simply because she wasn't deferential to Don Draper?
I spent 20 years in the advertising industry and my clients would absolutely care about what the professor has to say
20 years after ( minimum) the shit hit the fan, but thanks for your expert OPINION. Please feel free to enlighten us on the kid with the dry cleaners bag over his head and his mom smacks him for wrinkl
@@davidzwicker5662 wtf are you on about? all you managed here is looking like a douche. How does your second sentence even relate to what @james stuart wrote?
@@Schmuni it was a different time. The show has so many scenes of things that were so common at the time that today are completely unacceptable. Comments from a 2020 perspective on them are stupid.
Honestly I think a big part of it is the way she says it. She has a very commanding tone and it’s honestly really cool
The same people who idolize Draper and see every dissenting viewpoint in this show as 'pretentious intellectuals' are the ones who miss the whole point of the show. This lady is entirely in the right and Don is the epitome of this deathwish. It's pretentious of them to ignore psychological studies (I know about the stigmas of psychology back then, but still) on top of how they dismiss other perspectives (IE Peggy about advertising to women who don't fit in the Jackie/Marilyn template) until they realize its profitable to embrace them. The whole point of the show is that Don, who speaks, acts, and appears to be the classic self-made American role model, is anything but. He's a complete fraud who waltzed into a carreer by bullshitting, which he may not realize but he was only able to do because of his appearance as a put together white male. His job is then completely bullshitting, pulling a mood out of nothing and manipulating the use of a product for it to complete the consumer in some way. The reason he's so good at it is because his entire life is a facade, bullshitted to sell to the people around him.
The dissenting opinions of the show are extremely important. like that of the hippies. While the hippies may seem less put together and ambitious than Don, they provide the criticisms of his entire lifestyle that this show was made to highlight. Don is not supposed to be a role model. I love his character because of the fact that he's a tragic, horrible person, but nobody should want to live a life as selfish as his.
Calling the woman the pretentious one in this scene for offering factual statistics that Don basically dismissed before she walked in the room shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the moral of the story here.
I think the point of the clip was her owning him. The point was, just let them have their say, let your opinion be clear, and smile as they chase the shadows of burning money. It’s good advice for buisness or academia, and especially good for where these things meet. They cut the clip at her most cutting line, I really think that was the point of the the clip
Jesse Makua I get what your saying and somewhat agree, but telling someone to call you Dr is pretty pretentious though. You definitely can’t deny that.
@@ngpdreamteam2k4 it depends on the context. It is like if someone who you didn't know just started to act all friendly and sell you something. It is a respect thing to reestablish frame.
To your point:
1:05 says the guy who is closeted gay
1:30 says the guy who has a death wish as evidenced by his later suicide advertisement with the suit and shoes left on the beach and much more.
Jesse - Spot on. "Don Draper" isn't even his real name. He is an amoral grifter who appears to have
the American Dream, but underneath the mask, he
isn't anything of note. The ultimate
nihilist who destroys everything he touches,.
A true hollow man who was inadvertently responsible for two deaths, "Don Draper" was
created to avoid the terrible consequences of his actions.
This is the best observation of Don Draper to date. "Mad Men" is a magnificent series, one of the
finest ever but it reminds me of Oscar Wilde's classic quote - "There are two kinds of tragedy.
One is not getting what you want. The other is getting it."
Being a pretentious intellectual, I have to point out that while people were smoking before Freud, Freud's theories as applied by Freud's nephew (Edward Bernays) had some of the most significant advertising effects on smoking in American history. It was Bernays's add campaign that essentially broke down the taboo against women smoking in public, using psychology (trying the idea of smoking to women's empowerment in 1929)
Marlboro cigarettes were originally targeted at women.
That was done by politics, not psychology
1:03 Said Sal, the closeted gay dude.
LOL, that is most ironic. Great job pointing that out, man.
More irony: Gay rights were so young back then, that you could act like Sal and not be called gay..
wowwwa that is great writing
My sentiments exactly....
Well spotted.
This could have been avoided if the uploader knew what “pretentious” meant.
Remember back when we dismissed science for political or economic gains? We’ve come a long way, baby!
HAHAHA!!!
I see what you did there.
...oh. Wait
🤣🤣🤣 good one
Remember when science was politicized and totally disregarded but called science anyway?
Sal: "I find it hard to believe that people are living one way and secretly thinking the exact opposite."
Classic.
Translation: "I feel intimidated by intelligent people so I posted a video! And stuff!"
When I was in High School I knew this kid named Ricky. Ricky was not book smart. He didn't get good grades in his academic classes. He took trade and learned autobody skills because he loved cars. He always loved cars. He could take cars apart with his eyes closed and then put then back together. He could tell you the make, model, and year of a car based on it's sound. Ricky probably failed his history and math classes. I'm assuming folks like you might call Ricky stupid or unintelligent. But Ricky knows more about cars than I will ever know. He's making good money working on them now and it's basically his love and his life.
Is Ricky dumb?
No.
Intelligence is relative.
It makes no sense to be the guy trying to know-it-all. That's wasteful and not practical if you think about it. What you can never ever know will always outweigh what you think you know by INFINITY. This means there will always be universes of information out there in the world that you don't know anything about. We all know nothing.
Stop trying to win the intelligence game. Shut up. Open up your mind. You might just learn something this way. The worst people the ones walking around thinking they know everything and are smarter than everyone else. It's just a stupid endeavor and it's incredibly stupid to waste your energy constantly trying to prove how much you think you know.
+Cutie Jewliani i think intellectualism for the sake of learning and bettering yourself, but using your intellectual prowess to make other people feel small is dumb. i am the second person in my family to get a college degree.my parent only finished high school.they always told me that it was just as important to be street smart as well as book smart. my grandfather only had a fifth grade education, but was supremely mechanically inclined. he could fix anything. he read constantly and could make a ph.d look like a moron. it was stephen hawking who said that people who bragged about being intellectual superior to others were losers. i love to read and im a writer. but im not interested in being the smartest guy in the room.im just interested in knowing things i care about.
Cutie Jewliani--I couldn't agree more. Cheers.
I want to add in intelligence is not just knowing facts, intelligence is applying that knowledge to the real world.
To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Rick and Morty. The humour is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of theoretical physics most of the jokes will go over a typical viewer's head. There's also Rick's nihilistic outlook, which is deftly woven into his characterisation- his personal philosophy draws heavily from Narodnaya Volya literature, for instance. The fans understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of these jokes, to realise that they're not just funny- they say something deep about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike Rick & Morty truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the humour in Rick's existential catchphrase "Wubba Lubba Dub Dub," which itself is a cryptic reference to Turgenev's Russian epic Fathers and Sons. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as Dan Harmon's genius wit unfolds itself on their television screens. What fools.. how I pity them. 😂
And yes, by the way, i DO have a Rick & Morty tattoo. And no, you cannot see it. It's for the ladies' eyes only- and even then they have to demonstrate that they're within 5 IQ points of my own (preferably lower) beforehand. Nothin personnel kid 😎
Sal: "So we're supposed to believe that people are living one way and secretly thinking the exact opposite? ThAt'S rIdIcUlOuS!"
^This quote ages hilariously.
Don is often wrong, but his confidence makes him sound right. I remember an episode when he says, "You can't tell how people are going to behave based upon how they have behaved.". Principles of persuasion 101, that's the best way to predict what people will do. He doesn't listen to research (Dr. Miller, the doctor here, etc) because they aren't telling him what he wants to hear.
He didn't listen because her research where worthless. The job is to sell the Lucky Strike brand, not cigarettes in general. The motivation are unimportant . A proper study would have explained why people had a preference for other brands of cigarette. No need to be a genius to understand why people are smoking. It's because they find the experience pleasurable. You do not need Freud in the explanation. That's where psychology matter: The medium is the message ! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_medium_is_the_message
@@omegaman7377 She did the job that she was hired to do & Don was an asshole over her final report b/c he assumed that it wasn't telling him what he thought he wanted to hear - some nugget he could use to impress the client & could rewrite to sound like he's the one that came up w/ the notion. The whole point of the scene was to illustrate both how much of a passive-aggressive asshole Don is & how contemptibly he treats those he considers his subordinates - he essentially considers him his property; remember how clasped-hands clenched-teeth & purple-viened pissed off he was when he couldn't talk Peggy out of leaving SCDP to take up what was in essence his position at a rival agency? He trashes - literally & figuratively - Dr. Miller's work b/c a.) it's not telling him what he wants to hear & b.) b/c Don has a Real Problem with any woman who's not ovulating over him & who can stick up for himself with complete confidence in the face of either his charm or bullying. Don's particular brand of bullying reminds me of the Bad Faith bullshitters I had to deal with when I worked retail; the one who assumed they could treat me like a serf b/c of the nature of my job & who would constantly ask the same question multiple different ways b/c they didn't like what I'd told them re a particular product. To repeat - Don is pulling approximately the same power-tripping here that Conrad Hyatt pulls on him to dress Don down in front of his coworkers later in the series.
The power dynamics on display here play out consistently throughout the series - Don's the phony-fake who chanced into the position he currently occupies out of sheer bullshitting & not only maintains his current position b/c bullshtitting is the nature of the work & he excels at it, but gets away with his both his bullshtitting & treating the people around & under him like garbage b/c the margin of error afforded to him simply out of the fact that he's a tall, preternaturally handsome & (assumed) rich White Guy, Period. The people who worship John Hamm's Don Draper & hold him up as an Alpha Male Role Model to emulate are the same dolts that worship Fight Club's Tyler Durden for all the wrong reasons: the latter is a cautionary tale re what happens when you ignore what is genuinely important to you & when you fail to develop your Emotional Intelligence in favour of monetary & material success, & the former is a cautionary tale - spread out over eight seasons - of the emotional, social & even spiritual toll extracted from someone who's entire life is founded on One Big Lie, One Big Lie that gives rise to all the little lies that follow it & the energy demanded in the maintenance of those lies. It's why Don nearly lays into Cutler when Cutler calls Don out for being "a bully & a drunk", & why Don starts treating Sally with a level of respect he's almost never afforded anyone else - not only did she walk in on her Dad & their neighbour's wife balls-deep in each other but she made an observation about both Don & Betty & how much of The Benefit Of The Doubt her parent's preternatural Good Looks give them, how unearned their level cachet is & how much & how subtly her parents manipulate that clout to their advantage, especially from seeing the way her all-female group of schoolgirl friends interact with Don at the dinner table of the restaurant that he'd taken them out to dinner to: "When people pay attention to you - which they inevitably do - you both start to Ooze".
@@morganbeare1764 I usually take the guys side in these situations but not in this case. The doctor DID do her job, but Don didn't know how to sell it, so she did a bad job according to him. They were asking for the moon from her as it was.
I remember an episode where the firm brought in a couple of young guys to tap into the younger generation and Don dismissed them out of hand even though he hadn't heard any of their ideas.
@@morganbeare1764 that was a good read, ty
@@morganbeare1764 she didnt just present the info, she tried to tell him how to do HIS job too. I would have told her to fvck off as well.
1:04
Funny that Salvatore would say that, since he's gay. Well played, writers.
Elizabeth Newton Yeah, MM writers were the masters of the Double Entendre....and it's mirrored EVERYWHERE in the political world - just ask Dennis Hastert ;-)
Cute kitty!
This is the most intelligent, subtle show is ever seen. The dialog has multiple levels of hidden meaning.
Remember he's heavily closeted so he has to pretend which is why he's married.
+Major Tom Homosexuality and heterosexuality are not counterparts. They're not opposites. It was not really ironic if you consider that.
When I hear someone call another “pretentious intellectual” I assume the accuser to be intellectually insecure or genuinely mentally inferior.
Eric da' MAJ true, this is a great scene though. It says more about who Don Draper and his college are than it does about the German psychiatrist... and says a whole lot about the person who admires the science denier in this scenario. Don Draper: great character, poor role model.
And you seem like a person who has a high opinion of themselves and likes to be condescending. Then when you get called out on it and shunned you lash out and claim “it’s because they’re jealous. 😥😥😥😥”
Totally Bored That’s a lot to determine about a person whom you know next to nothing about. I never said that the brief assumption that I make influences how I deal with them. I understand that the assumption is not always correct, it’s just an assumption, though it has proved to be true for the majority of the time I actually find out more about the person. More often I simply over hear it so I don’t learn anything substantial about them and therefor it just remains an assumption.
The logic behind my assumption is clear as intellect is to be admired and not shamed, yours seems predicated on not liking what I had to say which seems far from logical and more a case of bias. If I am wrong I am open to a sensible argument as to why, if not then I hope you reevaluate your opinion.
Thank You
Assume away, but in this case, a medical researcher goes to a marketing firm and gives marketing advice. Textbook pretension. It's not complicated enough to require great intelligence. She's over her skis.
Or a fan of Dr Beef Coma, which means both of the above.
There wasn't one thing pretentious about Dr. Guttman. She stated facts. Your title is actually far more pretentious.
LMAO - it's all crap
I think that the 'Doctor' handled the situation perfectly...
"Cigarettes are part of American life, or too good to give up. Or most appealing: An assertion of independence."
She pretty much nailed it there. That is exactly the relationship between Tobacco and America that stands today.
Yeah advertising on tobacco was usually very centered on an independent lifestyle and an expression of masculinity.
No its just addicting. Tobacco isn't as popular as it used to be and America isn't its main consumer. Pretty pretentious if you ask me.
@@Dragonfury3000 That was true in the 70's and 80's for sure, but in the Mad Med context of the 50's - that's when cigarette ads used to brag about doctor's endorsements and whatnot. Seeing the ads in old copies of Life magazine, it's insane.
The doctor was 100% correct, just ahead of her time. I don't see how you could transition from campaigns like "Remember your ABC's... Always Buy Chesterfields: The No 1. brand on college campuses" to pictures of the Marlborough Cowboy smoking himself into an early grave but being 'independent' and 'rejecting authority'
a weird thought to throw in - vaccines?
its just not seen as classy or sexy like it was back then, its trashy and gross
the guy who posted really missed the point, didn't he
Not at all.
She had a job to do for an advertising agency and she did not do it. Don's work for agency was for the tobacco company not the doctors morals.
@@bighands69 Bighand that doesn't make any sense. She did the research and provided the evidence. She kept the information confidential, and it is up to the advertising agency to do with the research as they wish, since they paid for it. I see zero issues with what she did.
I didn't know Jon Hamm's character was supposed to be a pretentious intellectual.
Classic management. Pay a lot for a consultant and if they conclude something you dont like, throw it in the trash without even looking at it.
We know from history that the researcher had a really good point, because the Marlboro man was a very successful campaign that came at this exact angle.
"Episode one finishes with Don and Pete pitching to the Garners from Lucky Strike. After Don flounders, Pete picks up the Freudian report that Don had put in his bin and tries to promote the deathwish campaign (which, as Marlboro County proved, was actually viable), but older Garner rejects it out of hand, leaving a furious Don to pick up the pieces..." - Excerpt from an article in the Guardian, which i found with a rudimentary google search "mad men deathwish marlboro"
Marlboro Man was selling masculinity and classis American. He was a Cowboy. Cowboys have nothing to do with "death wishes".
@@scottwillie6389 I think they went thru 7 or so Marlboro Men, they all croaked from cancer
@@Bubbles99718 They went through different models because it was just a character in ad campaign. Some Marlboro Men died much later in life of cancer or heart disease, but those are two of the most common forms of death whether you smoke or not.
The whole point of the Marlboro Man campaign was to convince men that filtered cigarettes (which everyone at the time assumed were healthier) were "manly". Prior to that point, only women smoked filtered cigarettes. Men smoked unfiltered. The Marlboro Man changed all that and made it socially acceptable for men to ditch unfiltered cigarettes. So it was the total opposite of what the OP suggested. It wasn't about promoting a death wish. It was about convincing men that switching to healthier* filtered cigs didn't make you a Nancy. And it worked! Filtered cigarettes became the norm for men.
*Modern research has found they aren't actually all that healthier at all because benefits of the reduction in tar provided by the filters are cancelled out by the toxic chemicals found in the paper used to make the filters! But nobody knew that at the time.
@@scottwillie6389 Only someone who doesn't understand American culture would say something that clueless.
The funny part is that the doctor was 100 percent right and anyone with half a brain who's carefully watched Mad Men from start to finish can see it as one big confirmation of what Freud proposed about the Death Drive. Don Draper lives a life of quiet of desperation pretending to be happy all while exhibiting self-destructive tendencies.
Wrong about what?
Really? So much of his work has filtered into the social sciences and humanities I find it hard to believe his entire work was wrong.
I'm afraid you're not being specific enough about how this is so. If his writings on human psychology are as "rejected", "butchered", or "discredited" then how are they still so influential? Take this show as one obvious example.
I see. So when you say his works are "rejected" you mean by the scientific community, not by society at large. I still don't agree. There isn't a consensus opinion on this issue. Psychoanalysis still has a strong following in the humanities and social sciences.
I am sorry but this is a strawman argument. Neuroscientists are still grappling with much of Freudian psychoanalysis. There is even a school of neuro-psychoanalysis.
Used to handle a big tobacco client regionally for 13 years, we actually paid a lot of attention to people like her. We didn't bin stuff like that - it goes straight to the strat team.
Such great writing:
1:05 says the guy who is closeted gay
1:30 says the guy who has a death wish as evidenced by his later suicide advertisement with the suit and shoes left on the beach.
I fear we will not see writing this stellar for a long long time.
Whoever posted this is a little sad. It's TV, they can make things work out in his favour even if he fucks things up.
Right? Hey, it works in fiction, so it must work in real life! On top of which, the scene didn't even depict what the title says.
Also, the show never actually tells you outright who's right and who's wrong. In retrospect, you could even deduce that it just shows Don (who is smoking in that scene, by the way) not wanting to believe that he himself has a death wish.
Love her accent. "Goot luck ett se meeting. I'm sure it will be a kvik van."
She looks and sounds like Ayn Rand.
@@yonisali3879 no she doesn't you stupid fucking twat
@@yonisali3879 That is exactly what I was thinking. I thought when I watched this clip, "Is her character supposed to be based on Ayn Rand?"
How to not let facts get in the way.
Answer: Throw them in the trash.
Every time one of these “How To Handle” videos from this channel pops up in my video recs, it turns out to be an entirely mundane workplace disagreement depicted in the show. It just SEEMS like wisdom bc the uploader clearly puts too much stock in the morality of fictional characters
Great line from Sal: "So we're supposed to believe that people are living one way, and secretly thinking the exact opposite? That's ridiculous."
funny every time
It was the medication for his blood pressure .
Three of my grandparents died from lung cancer, all three of them suffered terribly through chemotherapy, and wasted away to nothing, dying slowly, and the one thing they all had in common was they thought smoking wouldn't hurt them.
How to deal with a pretentious intellectual: be even more pretentious with less intellect.
Well Don is kinda a conformist so I don’t think you can really call him pretentious
@@Soltani88 either you’ve never watched the show or you don’t understand what pretentious means.
@@larrybarberio2777 Pretentious:attempting to impress by affecting greater importance, talent, culture, etc., than is actually possessed.
Don is the smartest and most competent character in the show, so you can't really call him pretentious. He presents himself a certain way, but do you really think he cares what people think of him? I think maybe you just don't understand what pretentious means yourself.
@@Soltani88 wow you really don’t understand the show
@@larrybarberio2777 Wow you're an idiot. Please tell explain it to me then lol. I'm sure you know what's going on.
"Sir, I have that climate change report you asked me for."
"Give me that!" Throws it into the garbage.
"Get out, you're fired!" Buzzes secretary.
"I've decided to leave for the Met early tonight. Have a gondola waiting for me at 6."
If they ever remake "From Russia With Love", she'd be a shoo-in for Rosa Klebb.
Or Ayn Rand
this should be titled: how to walk out from a stupid egomaniac.
Anata Sewerages Maybe stop with the ...'s guy! I think you might be having seizures.
Igloo Nomenclatur ehm? what u mean sonnie?
@@igloonomenclatur2516 r0
How is a doctor providing facts about the health risks associated with smoking 'a pretentious intellectual.'? I don't think aclydefrog gets the point.
From Don's perspective she's pretentious because he didn't know what the hell she was talking about, much less knew about Freud. It's more ignorance speaking.
There’s a difference between being pretentious and being intelligent. She’s not trying to impress them, she’s doing her job and reporting what she finds. It’s not her fault whether they like it or not.
As the series ended, I was a little disappointed that it did with the Don Draper/Dick Whitman lie still intact, suggesting he'd get away with it the rest of his life. As he explained once to Pete, it's desertion, and always actionable under military law. While Don maintains the ruse, it's also an on-going crime. Had he come up the landmark, hillside Coke commercial, as the ending suggests, the added fame and success could foster equally added danger to Don.
What I'm glad about is that the show never had Don sleeping with either Joan or Peggy. Over seven seasons, we watched Peggy struggle mightily to find her way and pull her psyche together. It could all come apart had she taken on Don's skeletons too. And the last thing Joan needed was another hound trying to get her dress off. In subtly different ways, and not without some contentious rounds, each woman had something of a protective, and mostly reliable big-brother's affection from Don which was far more fascinating.
I think it’s pretty clear that Joan wanted Don and got pretty close a time or two in the first seven seasons.
They do finally get it on in Season 8 though.
You’ll see...
I was more sad he went back to advertising. He had enough money to retire, he hated working at McCann and he was on this great mission for self-discovery. And it turned out it was effectively a research mission for a Coca-Cola ad.
This is one of the things that makes a show great, clever irony
1:04 to 1:11" so were suppose to believe that people are living one way and secretly thinking the opposite, thats ridiculous". Say's the gay man who's married to a women.
He's not married when he says it, definitely gay though.
OH I GET IT BECAUSE HES GAY!!!
Could also apply to Don.
Years later Don Draper, breathing with the help of an oxygen apparatus recalls this very meeting. A lonely tear falls from his eye as he looks over at a picture of his wife.
🤣
The layers of text, subtext, context, and history in this are delightfully enjoyable. We see how Don handles bad news and how actually focuses on the problem. The writing this scene is so sublime. This needs to be taught as a class for negotiation.
I just realized the writers knew all along that Sal is going to be gay... if I recall this is the first episode, and incidentally Sal says the line in this scene... wow genius!!
Sal says the line? I'm sorry, could you explain that? I'm still learning English.
He is referring to the fact that Sal says "People are living one way and secretly thinking the exact opposite? That's ridiculous" he is referring to himself, and his facade of being straight, while secretly being homosexual. This is foreshadowing to the later reveal of that information.
Fantastic Right, now I understand. For a moment I thought "say the line" was an American expression for something else. Thank you.
Haha what do you mean forshadowing if you were to take a room full of bets if that guy was gay then this scene would net you damn near everyone betting on yes
Wasn’t he married to a woman at the beginning of the series though?
Her analysis of the untenability of health arguments is spot on for the time, and her Freudian theory of the death wish is a plausible explanation for the reason people smoke. [Although, Freud was pushing a lot of nonsense in general. Also, the death wish thesis requires that all those smokers in 1960 actually knew and believed it was deadly. The thesis works better now.] But Don is also right- they need an argument that makes people smoke, and smoke a specific brand.
Her little rant made no sense hence why do threw the report straight into the bin.
Nah people smoke because their bored. It's just a classic time filler additive. I doubt most people have a "death wish" that involves cancer.
Some of what Freud postulated had a grain of truth at best and he overstated the importance of some of his hypotheses/theories. Freud nevertheless revolutionized the field of psychology, practically inventing it. Therefore, rather than looking to tear down his contributions, we all owe him a debt of gratitude for greatly increasing understanding of the human psyche and motivations.
Your comment is the best I’ve seen under this video so far. Yes, what she said was correct but it doesn’t really matter because they need advertisement and not „truth“.
@@schoolercat freuds prowess at understanding the human psyche was pathetic compared to one of his teachers, nietzsche
"Psychology might be great at cocktail parties" is totally what a person who doesn't have a fucking clue about research would say.
The “nobody lives a closed Life” snipe was sooo excellent
Notice Sal's denial when he blows off the idea of living one way and secretly thinking the opposite.
Sal was staying in that closet no matter what!
(1:05) Yes, I noticed that as well. Also, him immediately looking away after saying it is defensive as far as body language goes. Someone who looks away after dismissing an idea (or an accusation) as "ridiculous" or "absurd" is trying to change the subject, looking elsewhere to direct attention off of that idea or accusation, and by extension, taking attention off of themselves as well. In a way, the body language is doing the classic "Hey! What's that over there!" The actor (Bryan Batt) portrayed that reaction perfectly.
"Thinking one way and living the other - that's ridiculous" - and from Sal no less. That's the essence of MM right there.
it's crazy rewatching these scenes again after finishing the show. when you first start you just have a certain impression of these characters and as the show progresses they evolve with you.
The most interesting thing is that using the death wish and individualism angle to sell cigarettes is what worked. The Marlboro Man was what created the most powerful cigarette brand.
it's kinda freaky how good this show's writing is....
Sal: "We're supposed to believe that people are living one way, but secretly thinking the exact opposite." How's that for irony!!
I need to watch this series from the start again, I didn't even think of it later on down the road. Such a damn good show.
Ill have to watch this series again, but what I remember every character is a terrible person and nobody learns anything in the end.
Great show tho.
sal's line about people living one way and thinking another hits a lot harder after it was revealed he was closeted
Part of me was expecting her to say "Doctah Jones".
The irony of this scene is that Don had already fulfilled his own death wish by killing Dick Whitman, his former self. The doctor's role in this scene is to implicitly remind us of that.
Wow nice, good point. And finally, a comment with something to consider besides the same crying comment about OP’s clickbait title for the 2000th time.
She took the binning of her work without flinching, that's a dangerous one boys.
From my blog... "In the 1920’s Freud’s cousin Edward Louis Bernays was often called the “father of public relations” (Edward bernays 2018), the big man of New York advertising. He called upon cousin Freud to sell Lucky Strike cigarettes. The same brand associated with Mad Men. From this day on, it is no wonder Ms Menken walks into the advertising office with her torch, for it was Bernays who advertised smoking for women with his “Torches of Freedom” (Curtis 2016 ) slogan. It featured “across the united states and around the world” (Jackson in Curtis 2016 ). Mad Men episodes continue to use Freud references on many layers. For example, Freud’s death urge, Thanatos, is cited as a tool to advertise. Though on screen Don Draper rejects the idea of the death urge, the series leaves an ironic image of all possible shots littered with smoking. Another infamous Freudian signature phrase. “What does woman want” (Freud in Andre, 1999 p. 11)? is used many times by Don Draper. So as Ms Menken carries her torch of freedom, it has many meanings, connections and relations."
"I'm doing my own research."
Nein
Pretentiousness and Mad Men definitely go hand in hand, at least you got that much right.
Sal saying “we’re supposed to believe people are living one way but secretly thinking another way” and scoffing is so funny with context😭
I can't tell if the title is missing the point on purpose or not. This scene says a lot more about Sal and Don than it does about her.
I miss this Don. After his divorce in season 3 he was no more.
Edit: also Sal was fired too soon. His sas was gold.
I found the show a lot more enjoyable after the divorce. Season 2 was a long slog
"People are living one way, and secretly thinking the exact opposite? That's ridiculous." - I see what you did there, Sal
Can't believe that just 10 years back this was considered cool.
How to handle a pretentious intellectual: ignore the facts no matter what!
"I'm sorry, I just find your whole approach perverse." I'm going to be quoting that to a LOT of people!
SOmetimes I like to imagine what late 60's season 7 Don would say to season 1 Don. Honestly think he may just spit his drink on him. The level of disdain would be that high.
Living one way and secretly thinking another. Nice coming from him. Love it
"people are living one way, and thinking the exact opposite??" confessions of a deeply closeted man
"Pretentious intellectuals" are always right in the end. History looks down on idiots.
They were both correct. The research lady was right about the long-term prospects for smoking; Don was right in that she was addressing completely the wrong audience.
But they ended up losing the Lucky strike account.
This show was incredible. Every time I rewatch a scene or episode I have a new interpretation.
The psychologist was not pretentious. She was just doing her job, trying to use science in a way that would appeal to the client. That's what she's paid to do. And it sets up Don's revelation nicely: Advertising is about happiness, and people who want to be happy will believe anything you want them to believe.
"I'll take that drink now."
Best way to end things.
He dismisses her research and then goes on to watch a fly in a ceiling light and dream of fighting in Korea.
That said, he's also right in saying that the client wouldn't accept the proposal, and the public probably would balk at it.
Does the Marlboro Man ring a bell? The public ate it up. The Deathwish is a real thing.
I thought she handled the two pretentious intellectuals very well: she gave them the facts straight, held her ground through their disbelief, and even though they seemed to reject what she said, she never coddled either man that what they believed was somehow more 'true' than the cold, hard facts.
Both sides handled the situation the right way from their point of view. She did stick to the cold, hard facts. Cigarettes are bad for you and more and more people were figuring that out. But the ad men stuck to their job, how to convince people to buy Lucky Strikes, and telling people cigarettes were going to kill them was a bad idea for growing that business.
This scene provides background for the entire show. Advertising is not predicated on providing product information to consumers so that they can make rational decisions. If it was, nobody would ever make a decision to smoke cigarettes. By introducing Freud, the doctor in this scene is telling us that advertising should work to affect our unconscious desires, so that by choosing a particular product we feel better about ourselves, able to self-actualize into our ideal selves. This is consistent with the actual history of advertising, largely influenced in the US through the work of Edward Bernays, the American nephew of Sigmund Freud, who utilized his uncle's ideas. Bernays began his career during WW I creating "propaganda" for the US and then morphed that into "Public Relations." His seminal work in advertising began in the 1920's when he was able to break through the taboo against women smoking cigarettes in public by linking liberty, a patriotic value, with women's aspirations toward a better life. "Torches of freedom" was the catchphrase for cigarettes as symbols of emancipation and equality with men. This advertising campaign opened up a new market to tobacco companies, hitherto unexploited. Mad Men, as a show, is telling us that we do not buy products because we need them, but because we want them, and we want them because we have been backdoored through our unconscious desires, individuals' dangerous libidinal energies, the psychic and emotional energy associated with instinctual biological drives that Bernays viewed as inherently dangerous, that could be harnessed and channeled by a corporate elite for economic benefit. Don Draper is completely wrong in this scene, as he is completely driven by his unconscious, uncontrollable desires, despite his appearance of a well-managed individual. Don has a knack for tapping into the deep emotions that sell products, but he is unscientific, and his refusal to accept the science behind advertising is his refusal to know himself.