@@jaxr2958 i used to think so as well, but as long as her consciousness is saved, the Dr. can find a way to bring her back. possibly in a different body even, and thats fine since she is used to having different bodies already. from a show runner and storytellers perspective, they can also use this as in story context to cast a different person as River Song, if AK doesnt want to reprise her role. that was pretty good. its kind of like the same way they can change actors/actresses and still be the Dr. without feeling weird like the Witcher or 007
@@erlikprime I know Who can retcon stuff. But didn't they have an episode where she came back after that, told us that was all temporary and it was time for her to say goodbye and faded out? I wish they would sort it out, it has annoyed me the lengths the Doctor has gone to to save some companions but not River. Who grew up without her parents because of him and he did nothing. Who spent much of her life innocent in prison because of him and he did nothing. Reckon he has a debt to pay. Now that last night of 20 plus years could be stretched to 10000 if you have a time machine, but I need to know.
"Why?" "Well, my wife wanted to see Stevie Wonder, and this seemed like a romantic spot." The Doctor really does think outside the box when it comes to grand gestures.
Wants interesting is that before 12th Doctor it doesn't seem like the Doctor really did things that would be too anachronistic, but then 12 tries to get Missy and Bill's attention with an electric guitar in the middle ages. It seems like this facet of the 12 was imagined when the line of Stevie Wonder was given to River
“You turned up on my doorstep with a new haircut and your best suit” - “Nardole, what have you brought to my _doorstep.“_ “I’ve had a _haircut,_ and this is my _best suit!”_ My _God,_ when this show is good, it is *_GOOD._*
But he didn't actually take her there, they crashed there, and he surrendered to the inevitable and made their last night a good one. What would have happened if he had just left the planet while she was unconcious?
@@kimmccarthy7747they crashed there, the Doctor gave a local River’s bounty (which was a fortune), the local used the money to open an *extremely* fancy hotel and restaurant (and the best room and table permanently reserved for when the Doctor returned) and in the future the Doctor took River back to keep his promise. Keep up sweetie.
I doubt that was supposed to happen all along! I watched it in the theater and the word Daryllium hit me like a ton of bricks and it was all so sad but then at the very last second - at the very last second he says 24 years! And then the end screen - “And then they lived happily ever after”, “And then they lived happily”, “happily”. There was nothing like it!
The abject horror on 10's face, knowing how much he must love River and watching her die, is one of the most powerful moments in the show. 10 lost Rose, he'll lose Donna, he lost the girl on the titanic and the girl in the fireplace. He's still mourning his entire species, his family, his friends. He finally gets a glimpse into the possibility of falling in love and being happy -- but 10 doesn't get to experience any of that. He gets to met her, to understand who she is to him, and then he has to watch her die. Even the happiness agead for his future selves is marred by the knowledge that she has already died in his timeline, and evrey day she's barrelling toward that in her own.
When 10 says “IM VERY GOOD” he gets that same look on his face 9 did when he says “just this once everybody lives” he gets to be truly happy for a moment in spite of everything you just listed he gets some solis in knowing he did save her
@@adultishgambino1 - I found #11 to be kind of a childish version of the Doctor, like a big kid with a red wagon/blue TARDIS zipping up and down the block. #12 had the gravitas that the River Song character needed. [PS: Cleaver user name.]
@@adultishgambino1 I think it actually made a bigger impact, at least for me. 11 was like the man you fall in love with and get swept into marriage, while 12 was the one you fall back in love for a 2nd honeymoon after things have gone south for a while. The scene on delirium in particular shows how much he still loved her, and that he had grown enough to finally give her her night, even though he knows it meant the final timer on her death.
@@adultishgambino1 i disagree. The whole point of River is that she's meant to have met multiple versions of the doctor. If anything I always thought she met too few. When she was first introduced as a character I had imagined her as a very important character for many many doctors.
The fact that the Doctor is openly talking about River being his wife is utterly heartwarming. Now, at last, there’s no need for secrets: River Song is his wife and he’ll let everyone know.
I was already pretty impressed on how they kept river's continuity, but when i found out that moffat already had the entire story planned out and everything was already written in the diary and that he and alex kingston were the only ones that knew the entire story from the beginning it was brilliant!
@@PenneySounds actually he confirmed that he did BC Kate Winslet was originally going to be cast but then he cast Alex after deciding the character would be reacurring
People love to argue about whether you should watch shows in release order or chronological order, but I'm gonna go watch Doctor Who in River Song order
There's a really good fan edit called "The River Song Chronology", if you can find it. It includes all her appearances in the order she experienced them, except for "The Husbands Of River Song" and I think "Rain Gods".
@@Soundwave-dk8bu the doctor and river meet each other in reverse time relative to the other, so release order is the doctor's aging meeting up with younger versions of river, and river's chronological order is her meeting younger versions of the doctor
But since it's doctor who, it cant be as straightforward as them being backwards, because the last time we see river is also second to last in her chronology
@@Soundwave-dk8bu *Chronological order is the order of when the story takes place, following a timeline. Release order is the chronological order of releases in our real timeline.* Release order can be called a chronological order as it is chronological relative to our own reality, but since our real chronological order can be called publishing/release order, "chronological order" usually goes to the order in which events happened in the timeline in-universe. So with chronological orders, prequels come first, even if they were released last. However, stories dealing with time travel obviously makes it a little difficult to define "chronological order". Is it the Doctor's timeline or the universe's timeline we care about? Imagine if you watched every episode of Doctor Who in the order of the time periods they visit. It'd be total chaos, hopping between different Doctors and their stories. Much more coherent is the chronological order relative to the main character, which in Doctor Who is usually the Doctor, but also his companions. In a time travelling story such as Doctor Who, this relative chronology is very different from universal chronology and it can be important to remember that different characters then experience different chronologies. In most cases, release order is the chronological order relative to the main character, but even this isn't always the case (especially with prequels and spin-offs).
Something interesting is that 10s thought process is that his future self had years to think, so he figured out his future self's plan to keep River alive. In doing that, he already knew the plan to save River
@@9manny99 I think as soon as the DR. meets River in the library that moment becomes time locked and when she tells him about the singing towers that moment becomes time locked. It has to happen unless something else changes the timeline.
@@sarahglover3286 lol man and i still meet crazies from the 10 and rose days who say "doctor never loved river and everything was circumstantial whereas with rose everything was natural" and i just get incredibly pissed off
beyond that, she was made to kill the doctor to stop his name from being told at Trenzalore, and yet she was the one to say it at Trenzalore because he married and told her
@@luisfillipebeserra2108Mostly due to chronological order. Rose and The Doctor had constant time with each other, meanwhile with River, it is rarely consistent. But I will respect your opinion, just stating facts, and existing for the Time Travel.
I always wished they’d ironed out River’s story just a little bit more but what we got of her was very much enough and it’s why she’s almost universally loved as one of DW’s best ever female characters. Portrayed masterfully by Alex Kingston. She steals every episode she’s in. How she never got a spin-off I’ll never know but I’m fine with the audios.
There is the Big Finish audiobooks, there's plenty of stories that not only involve River but also the Doctor Who cast of past and present, they're like the inbetween of what happens before, during, and after the show.
i suppose im in the minority then, because i think shes overrated. but thats fine, a lot of the characters i like are considered overrated too. though before anyone jumps down my throat and says "why watch a river song vid then if you dont like her?" i clicked to see if they did actually keep it accurate, not for the character itself. doctor who has a bad habit of inconsistency at times so i wanted to be sure the title was true
The fact river impacted the doctor more cause he always knew this was the one person who knew him and he couldn't save her cause she was already dead long ago..and the fact they always met backwards with him moving forward and he backward it was just the perfect thing ever And the fact that even tho he could save her completely and knew his old self wouldn't even know her he knew that if he gave his younger self the chance he'd save her
Not me only just realising that 5:54 "when you least expect it, but always, when you need it the most - there is a Song." - he's not just talking about the towers, he's talking about River too.
The towers are also a metaphor for the two of them. Always distant, yet always aligning at just the right moment to help each other. They're also both ancient, surviving disasters for thousands if not millions of years. They represent time.
he's quoting river's diary, at the same time he compares her to the towers. he takes river's euphemism about being in love with a monument and turns it around to express his love for her. it's such an amazing speech, it makes me realise what a genius moffat is.
That's what I'd recommend to anyone when watching the series for the first time. Rewatch those 2 episodes right after that special. Best closure on that character possible
@@WxB2001 I doubt he had it planned out that clearly -- I think he'd intended to have the Tenth Doctor meet her at least once more but couldn't make it work, for example. But he did definitely think ahead; it's not actually written into the episode, but when Moffat wrote SitL/FotD, his intent/headcanon was that the 'Doctor Moon' virtual construct was in fact an upload of the Doctor's final incarnation from the far future, incorporated into the Library from the very beginning to wait for River to catch up and then spend eternity together. RTD loved the idea and accepted it as his own headcanon, but there just wasn't going to be any way they'd dare establish something that drastic regarding the Doctor's future into the canon.
1:14 oh my god i Never noticed how younger Doctor's face dropped when River says "he's taking me to the singing towers", and older Doctor just gives the "no we're not" look. god
Yep. 12 remembered what he experienced as 10 and so he knew what to do to make sure River survived in some way. For death is too final for someone as amazing as River Song.
5:55 I've always been impressed with Peter's acting on this one scene, very different from his natural doctor, and yet such a powerful display of emotion. Really strikes me every time I see it!
Because those tears are real. Both he and Alex had to keep doing retakes because both of them kept crying for real due to how emotional the scene was. 😢
One more: In The Impossible Astronaut, River tells Rory that one day she'll see a past version of the Doctor, and he won't know who she is, and that she thinks it will kill her. In Silence in the Library, she tells Donna that the Doctor doesn't recognize her, and that it kills her. Moffat you magnificent bastard.
3:56 The top bit before the lightbulb part of the screwdriver looks like it's made of copper/something copper-like. When River first gets it, it's brown but when 10 Doctor examines it, it's green. It probably turned green over the years (like the Statue of Liberty).
Yes, a very nice bit of detailing on the prop. I have the toy version of that sonic, and I plan to buy a second one and repaint it like the "new" version. Maybe even recreate the box.
Peter Capaldi/Alex Kingston pulled off the old married couple so well, absolutely amazing chemistry. Even down to scenes without the other, Capaldi pulls off that “My wife” line perfectly.
Well the baby in demons run is a month old. I just rewatched it. The people say that "it's been a month and still no sign of the doctor". The episode before was when Amy gave birth.
I'm surprised you didn't put in the scene with the length of the final night. That twist was my favourite part of the episode. But you sure edited this VERY well. Thank you for this, it reminds me just how amazing the show can be.
I left that out because it doesn't really connect to anything else. These videos are just to show the connections between different stories. If I include every cool moment, the videos will be really long and never make it past copyright.
The length of the final night is dumb. Just makes rivers sacrifice so much less tragic and delegitimizes everything she says in forest of the dead. ‘ the last time I saw you, your turned up on my doorstep (didn’t happen) with a new haircut and a suit (again the context doesn’t fit how she describes it)l you took me to darrillium (context is wrong again, they crashed there). To see the singing towers, the towers sang and you cried. (Yeh and then she is practically told this is the last time she’ll see him so why act so shocked in forest of the dead) The story she tells in forest of the dead is 5 minutes of the very first hour they spend on darillium. There’s then another 24 years on top of that where they live a long and happy life. It is not as tragic as she makes out in series 4 and it’s in no way a life cut short like it’s suggested. And it’s also no way accurate to describe that 5 minutes as ‘the last time I saw you’. It’s incorrect, wrong and makes her sound retroactively dumb and whiny in forest of the dead. There’s no tragedy anymore. Moffat really, really missed the mark with husbands of River song. Completely shat over his own story. This her ACTUAL story ‘The last time I saw you, the real you, the future you I mean. We’d just spent 24 blissfully happy years together as a married couple after you told me this is the last time we’re going to spend together. After I lived a long and happy life, longer than any human, and met every single incarnation of you. You then said goodbye for some reason and I went off to the library fully aware I wasn’t going to see a version of you again that knows who I am but I acted surprised, confused and upset for some reason when that very thing happened.’ It’s so annoying how the things Moffat makes her say are now only semi true from a certain point of view, if you ignore context and stretch the imagination just because of his pathological fear of having anybody undergo some sort of tragedy or loss or actual death.
@@PenneySounds it’s not though. It’s not exactly what happened. It’s what vaguely happened from a certain point of view if you stretch your imagination and the actual meanings on rhetorical phrases. For one, the last time she saw the doctor was NOT the last scene of husbands of Riversong. It doesn’t make sense. The only thing river says in series 4 that actually happened is ‘the towers sang and you cried’ Nothing else runs in the context it’s described
I cried during “The Husbands of River Song”. Like a baby. Capaldi was the perfect choice for the Doctor that took River to the Towers. It’s still one of the highlights of his tenure as the Doctor.
River Song was always a brillant character and probably the best part of Moffat's run but dear god, did this final episode with Twelve elevated her to the pantheon of the greatest. My absolute favorite part is her little rant adressing how she knows she cannot be loved by the Doctor because no matter how special to him she is, she's still just a fleeting moment in his eternity of a life. And it's amazing to see how the Doctor is hurt to hear her say that.
Oh god that music at the singing towers of darillium always makes me burst into tears. So sad I never got to experience the doctor who music concert tours, and that they never actually released the song anywhere in full.
Something i lovedabout Rivers arc that I only realised after it ended, was that we always knew we'd see River again because we hadn't seen their last night
Continuity in Doctor Who must be a nightmare, driving anyone given that job to a life of jibbering confusion. That it can pulled off at all is as amazing as the Singing Towers of Darillium. ["That's nice. Maybe they'll name the crater after us."]
It's so nice seeing the resolution of the story line Because we see in the first meeting, that the doctor made a solution, he found a way to save her, but he doesn't know what that solution was, just how to execute it So we can only assume that heart break he feels when the day is upon him and he knows the solution, and that he has to make sure it goes without a hitch
That incredible acting by capaldi in there last scene, is fantastic. Some of the best acting in the entire franchise from that under appreciated man ❤️
The moment he saves river to the database, turns to the library and she smiles, the music there, his reaction, Scene still sends so many feelings. Even more now after seeing them compiled in one shot like this. So epic, so well done by the writers and actors. These moment of wibbly wobbly timey wimey are what made this show so memorable and great.
I know that for the Doctor, the events in The Library are established history, but I still imagine 12 designing River’s sonic to look like 10’s sonic and thinking “This is really gonna mess with his head” like an inside joke with himself.
This is a terrific video! Moffat did an incredible job telling River's story out of order. I hadn't even noticed the repetition of the "when the wind stands fair" line.
It gets even deeper, the idea that he spent years figuring out how to save her feeds into how he spent the same time figuring out how to save gallifrey. Solving a problem from regeneration to regeneration
"Remember when there were two of you-" Before this line, I was actually wondering about the continuity, since that scene was clearly two 11's rather than 11 and 12. But that line proves that that wasn't actually the night they went to Darilliam- just one of the many times he said they'd go and then cancelled.
Twelve and River worked so well as a TARDIS couple. I remember when their last episode aired, i cried so hard. They had such an amazing chemistry. I wish they would've done more with both of them together! I had always thought Susan looked like River... And Bill looked like Susan.... Will the producers please make it official that Bill is actually related to the Doctor?
just about the only way they could have possibly pulled off a romance with a character as immortal and ever changing as the doctor. It can never happen again.
I remember in the library episode she asked the doctor if he reckonized her, but since he didn't she knew this will be the last she'll see the doctor. It's remarkable how the show was able to keep what she said in line with the rest of the series.
*“When the wind stands fair* and the night is perfect, when you least expect it, it blows when you need it the most.” “Now and then, every once in a very long while, every day in a million days, *when the wind stands fair,* and the Doctor comes to call, everybody lives.” I have never noticed that callback, even when I watched the episodes back to back. Impressive.
Part of the reason I made this is because I have a video of the minisodes "First Night" and "Last Night" edited together, and a lot of people were asking if they are canon or if they were retconned out of the story by "The Husbands Of River Song". But if you listen carefully at 3:36, she references those minisodes in that episode.
I noticed something today that I never connected the dots to; at 4:18 when he’s showing her the screwdriver and playing around with it, he scanned her head with the sonic end. That’s the moment he saved a copy of her to the screwdriver
I love how other timetravel media fights so hard not to interact with their past selves, but Here's 11 having a conversation with 11; Not even another regeneration! just himself
Thank you so much for this, such a great edit of yours 👏👏👏❤️ I love River and the Doctor ❤️ . Wish we got to see more of them with his 10th and especially 12th incarnation 😍🤩
She should return every so often like The Master. Timelords could reach back and gave her more regenerations, or give her a new body for the back up. She could end up with the diner TARDIS after a few adventures with the girls. Or even become a mother to Jenny.
That is true, plus, if anything, the library’s Data Core is essentially a primitive version of the Gallifreyan Matrix, so the foundations for resurrection are possible, just as what happened with the Master during the Time War
Good job writers and showrunners here - I am a big fan of Eleven and Twelve now, and I loved all these super-archs between River, Amy/Rory, Clara and others and how many callbacks and call-forwards I picked up on. It's beautiful.
I’ve got it as: 1. A Good Man Goes to War 2. The Impossible Astronaut/Day of the Moon 3. Let’s Kill Hitler 4. Closing Time 5. The Wedding of River Song 6. First Night/Last Night 7. First Night/Last Night (River after 5 years) 8. A Good Man Goes to War (Frost Fair) 9. A Good Man Goes to War (Demons Run) 10. The Impossible Astronaut/Day of the Moon 11. Bad Night/Good Night (River is offscreen) 12. The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang 13. The Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone 14. The Wedding of River Song (Amy’s Garden) 15. Last Night (failed trip to Darillium) 16. Rain Gods (they talk about trying to go to a restaurant) 17. The Angels Take Manhattan 18. The Husbands of River Song 19. Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead 20. The Name of the Doctor This is based on the Confidential episode for The Wedding of River Song, which lists her timeline up to meeting Amy in her garden.
Not everybody has committed the show to memory like I have. When I first watched "The Husbands of River Song", the instant there was that line at the beginning about a haircut and a suit I was like "Oh boy, this is it."
I think you also should have included the clip in "The Return of Doctor Mysterio" where Nardole said "she died, a very long time ago, in a library" and the part where he said "24 years, what a night"
I mean, when you think about it, a show based around time travel being disrespectful to its own continuity would just be shoddy work. Credit where it's due, the River Song arc was pretty brilliantly executed.
@@PenneySounds - How do people in The USA access the various mini-sodes? Whenever I have tried, I could not from the USA. I understand the BBC's desire to protect the rights of the British people who have paid for the series, but it is frustrating. >_
Oof the paradox, now that I realize it. Tennant asks why he would give her his screw driver, that he would be thinking of a way to save her but then he already knows because has the screwdriver with her consciousness but he would only know to do that if he thought of it and searched but he doesn't need to search... You get it. Thinking about time travel and paradoxes gives me a headache and I do it anyways 🤣
River screwdriver would have been so much better if The Doctor had kept the blue one until Capaldi. Along the series he could have modified it and fixed it when it become damaged until eventually it resembled the one seen in the library.
True, and it was always the best design. The claw one and the weird blue one never looked as good to me But I assume the one he gives her was built out of one of the damaged ones. Either the one Prisoner Zero chewed up, or the earlier one he burned up in the x-ray machine on the moon.
"Theres always a loophole, you wait until the last moment then spring it on me." Then he proceeds to do the same here and lets river think the only have 1 night together, qhich is 20 years
I love that him scanning her face as a little “joke” is him registering her consciousness into the screwdriver, bloody brilliant
Never understood what the point was though. In some ways what he did was cruel.
Cruel how?
@@PenneySounds Didn't he leave her trapped on a hard drive until she faded into non-existance. The great Adventurer River Song?
@@jaxr2958 i used to think so as well, but as long as her consciousness is saved, the Dr. can find a way to bring her back. possibly in a different body even, and thats fine since she is used to having different bodies already. from a show runner and storytellers perspective, they can also use this as in story context to cast a different person as River Song, if AK doesnt want to reprise her role. that was pretty good. its kind of like the same way they can change actors/actresses and still be the Dr. without feeling weird like the Witcher or 007
@@erlikprime I know Who can retcon stuff. But didn't they have an episode where she came back after that, told us that was all temporary and it was time for her to say goodbye and faded out? I wish they would sort it out, it has annoyed me the lengths the Doctor has gone to to save some companions but not River. Who grew up without her parents because of him and he did nothing. Who spent much of her life innocent in prison because of him and he did nothing. Reckon he has a debt to pay. Now that last night of 20 plus years could be stretched to 10000 if you have a time machine, but I need to know.
"Why?" "Well, my wife wanted to see Stevie Wonder, and this seemed like a romantic spot." The Doctor really does think outside the box when it comes to grand gestures.
I see what you did there
well first he has to think *inside* the box before he can think outside it
It's bigger on the inside
@@cxffaine a lot of thinking may be done inside the box, he has a lot of headroom to be fair
Wants interesting is that before 12th Doctor it doesn't seem like the Doctor really did things that would be too anachronistic, but then 12 tries to get Missy and Bill's attention with an electric guitar in the middle ages. It seems like this facet of the 12 was imagined when the line of Stevie Wonder was given to River
“You turned up on my doorstep with a new haircut and your best suit”
-
“Nardole, what have you brought to my _doorstep.“_
“I’ve had a _haircut,_ and this is my _best suit!”_
My _God,_ when this show is good, it is *_GOOD._*
I know, I'd never picked up on that one!
As someone who knows every little detail, the second I heard that line, I was like "Oh boy, this is it."
I read this AS THE CLIPS STARTED PLAYING,how the hell it happened I don’t know
Brick jokes. They are great.
I always think the sweetest thing about the Doctor taking River to the towers is that one night is 24 years long there.
But he didn't actually take her there, they crashed there, and he surrendered to the inevitable and made their last night a good one. What would have happened if he had just left the planet while she was unconcious?
@@kimmccarthy7747they crashed there, the Doctor gave a local River’s bounty (which was a fortune), the local used the money to open an *extremely* fancy hotel and restaurant (and the best room and table permanently reserved for when the Doctor returned) and in the future the Doctor took River back to keep his promise. Keep up sweetie.
I doubt that was supposed to happen all along! I watched it in the theater and the word Daryllium hit me like a ton of bricks and it was all so sad but then at the very last second - at the very last second he says 24 years! And then the end screen - “And then they lived happily ever after”, “And then they lived happily”, “happily”. There was nothing like it!
I would love to see Colin Salmon cast as The Doctor. Considering he played Dr. Moon, this could open up all sorts of possibilities.
The abject horror on 10's face, knowing how much he must love River and watching her die, is one of the most powerful moments in the show. 10 lost Rose, he'll lose Donna, he lost the girl on the titanic and the girl in the fireplace. He's still mourning his entire species, his family, his friends. He finally gets a glimpse into the possibility of falling in love and being happy -- but 10 doesn't get to experience any of that. He gets to met her, to understand who she is to him, and then he has to watch her die. Even the happiness agead for his future selves is marred by the knowledge that she has already died in his timeline, and evrey day she's barrelling toward that in her own.
When 10 says “IM VERY GOOD” he gets that same look on his face 9 did when he says “just this once everybody lives” he gets to be truly happy for a moment in spite of everything you just listed he gets some solis in knowing he did save her
Her and Capaldi’s Doctor had so much chemistry. What a shame it was just the one episode, but at least they were together the longest.
Personally I feel like it would've had a bigger impact if it was 11 since that was a longer history for the audience.
@@adultishgambino1 - I found #11 to be kind of a childish version of the Doctor, like a big kid with a red wagon/blue TARDIS zipping up and down the block. #12 had the gravitas that the River Song character needed. [PS: Cleaver user name.]
@@adultishgambino1 I think it actually made a bigger impact, at least for me. 11 was like the man you fall in love with and get swept into marriage, while 12 was the one you fall back in love for a 2nd honeymoon after things have gone south for a while.
The scene on delirium in particular shows how much he still loved her, and that he had grown enough to finally give her her night, even though he knows it meant the final timer on her death.
ssshar2176 and I am still jealous of that 😊
@@adultishgambino1 i disagree. The whole point of River is that she's meant to have met multiple versions of the doctor. If anything I always thought she met too few. When she was first introduced as a character I had imagined her as a very important character for many many doctors.
The fact that the Doctor is openly talking about River being his wife is utterly heartwarming. Now, at last, there’s no need for secrets: River Song is his wife and he’ll let everyone know.
I was already pretty impressed on how they kept river's continuity, but when i found out that moffat already had the entire story planned out and everything was already written in the diary and that he and alex kingston were the only ones that knew the entire story from the beginning it was brilliant!
Quite certain that's not true
Well most of it was written but there Still was something not in it
@@PenneySounds there's interviews of Alex kingston where she says that it's true, she says that she was sworn to secrecy ever since she was cast
Moffat didn't even know he was going to continue the story when she was cast
@@PenneySounds actually he confirmed that he did BC Kate Winslet was originally going to be cast but then he cast Alex after deciding the character would be reacurring
People love to argue about whether you should watch shows in release order or chronological order, but I'm gonna go watch Doctor Who in River Song order
There's a really good fan edit called "The River Song Chronology", if you can find it. It includes all her appearances in the order she experienced them, except for "The Husbands Of River Song" and I think "Rain Gods".
wait what's the difference between the release order and the chronological order?
@@Soundwave-dk8bu the doctor and river meet each other in reverse time relative to the other, so release order is the doctor's aging meeting up with younger versions of river, and river's chronological order is her meeting younger versions of the doctor
But since it's doctor who, it cant be as straightforward as them being backwards, because the last time we see river is also second to last in her chronology
@@Soundwave-dk8bu *Chronological order is the order of when the story takes place, following a timeline.
Release order is the chronological order of releases in our real timeline.*
Release order can be called a chronological order as it is chronological relative to our own reality, but since our real chronological order can be called publishing/release order, "chronological order" usually goes to the order in which events happened in the timeline in-universe. So with chronological orders, prequels come first, even if they were released last.
However, stories dealing with time travel obviously makes it a little difficult to define "chronological order". Is it the Doctor's timeline or the universe's timeline we care about? Imagine if you watched every episode of Doctor Who in the order of the time periods they visit. It'd be total chaos, hopping between different Doctors and their stories.
Much more coherent is the chronological order relative to the main character, which in Doctor Who is usually the Doctor, but also his companions. In a time travelling story such as Doctor Who, this relative chronology is very different from universal chronology and it can be important to remember that different characters then experience different chronologies.
In most cases, release order is the chronological order relative to the main character, but even this isn't always the case (especially with prequels and spin-offs).
Something interesting is that 10s thought process is that his future self had years to think, so he figured out his future self's plan to keep River alive. In doing that, he already knew the plan to save River
Bootstrap paradox.
Perhaps there was once a timeline where he had to think about it then replaced the screwdriver but that’s not what we will ever know
@@9manny99 I think as soon as the DR. meets River in the library that moment becomes time locked and when she tells him about the singing towers that moment becomes time locked. It has to happen unless something else changes the timeline.
@@9manny99 it's not a case of that, it's a loop in time
@@Cholin3947which is why no spoilers or there will be consequences
I love how River was created to kill the Doctor, but ended up marrying him and sacrificing herself to save him.
"They created a psychopath to kill you" "totally married her"
Sacrificed herself twice technically! She gave up all her future regenerations!
@@sarahglover3286 lol man and i still meet crazies from the 10 and rose days who say "doctor never loved river and everything was circumstantial whereas with rose everything was natural" and i just get incredibly pissed off
beyond that, she was made to kill the doctor to stop his name from being told at Trenzalore, and yet she was the one to say it at Trenzalore because he married and told her
@@luisfillipebeserra2108Mostly due to chronological order.
Rose and The Doctor had constant time with each other, meanwhile with River, it is rarely consistent.
But I will respect your opinion, just stating facts, and existing for the Time Travel.
I always wished they’d ironed out River’s story just a little bit more but what we got of her was very much enough and it’s why she’s almost universally loved as one of DW’s best ever female characters. Portrayed masterfully by Alex Kingston. She steals every episode she’s in. How she never got a spin-off I’ll never know but I’m fine with the audios.
They should make a series called the diary of River song
There is the Big Finish audiobooks, there's plenty of stories that not only involve River but also the Doctor Who cast of past and present, they're like the inbetween of what happens before, during, and after the show.
@@andrelandry548 it does exist via big Finish
@@geocachingwomble many would Say thèse are not cannon
i suppose im in the minority then, because i think shes overrated. but thats fine, a lot of the characters i like are considered overrated too.
though before anyone jumps down my throat and says "why watch a river song vid then if you dont like her?" i clicked to see if they did actually keep it accurate, not for the character itself. doctor who has a bad habit of inconsistency at times so i wanted to be sure the title was true
The fact river impacted the doctor more cause he always knew this was the one person who knew him and he couldn't save her cause she was already dead long ago..and the fact they always met backwards with him moving forward and he backward it was just the perfect thing ever
And the fact that even tho he could save her completely and knew his old self wouldn't even know her he knew that if he gave his younger self the chance he'd save her
Not me only just realising that 5:54 "when you least expect it, but always, when you need it the most - there is a Song." - he's not just talking about the towers, he's talking about River too.
The towers are also a metaphor for the two of them. Always distant, yet always aligning at just the right moment to help each other. They're also both ancient, surviving disasters for thousands if not millions of years. They represent time.
he's quoting river's diary, at the same time he compares her to the towers. he takes river's euphemism about being in love with a monument and turns it around to express his love for her. it's such an amazing speech, it makes me realise what a genius moffat is.
@@RileyWritey no the towers are his hearts.
The singing towers are a metaphor for her always being in his hearts.
@@terozu5440 - The amazing thing about great metaphors is that they can be several different things at once.
I didn't pick up on that till I'd watched the scene a few times. I think it's brilliant. Melody Song River Pond ❤
If you’ve ever watched husbands of river song followed IMMEDIATLEY by silence in the library/Forrest of the dead you know how it hurts your soup
That's what I'd recommend to anyone when watching the series for the first time. Rewatch those 2 episodes right after that special. Best closure on that character possible
Not my soup!
To think FOTD and SITL were from 2008, do you think Moffat back then planned on completing River's story to come full circle like it has done?
@@WxB2001 I doubt he had it planned out that clearly -- I think he'd intended to have the Tenth Doctor meet her at least once more but couldn't make it work, for example. But he did definitely think ahead; it's not actually written into the episode, but when Moffat wrote SitL/FotD, his intent/headcanon was that the 'Doctor Moon' virtual construct was in fact an upload of the Doctor's final incarnation from the far future, incorporated into the Library from the very beginning to wait for River to catch up and then spend eternity together. RTD loved the idea and accepted it as his own headcanon, but there just wasn't going to be any way they'd dare establish something that drastic regarding the Doctor's future into the canon.
@@MythicFox wow this is so cool! Where have you read/heard this?
1:14 oh my god i Never noticed how younger Doctor's face dropped when River says "he's taking me to the singing towers", and older Doctor just gives the "no we're not" look. god
which episode is this? I have not found this one. is it a special or a minisode?
@@BrownPassport it's a minisode called "last night". It's preceded by "first night" and I suggest you give them both a watch!
@@BrownPassport I included a link in the top corner to my edit where I combine the two minisodes together.
4:19 he's probably activating the "backup" chip in the sonic, connecting it to her brain, while acting like he's being silly. OMG i NEVER noticed
Yep. 12 remembered what he experienced as 10 and so he knew what to do to make sure River survived in some way. For death is too final for someone as amazing as River Song.
It's an easy little detail to miss, that we actually see him "save" her to the neural relay
Dammit, I just saw this comment and I already made essentially the same one 😂
5:55 I've always been impressed with Peter's acting on this one scene, very different from his natural doctor, and yet such a powerful display of emotion. Really strikes me every time I see it!
Yes! The long pause he makes to compose himself so he doesn't burst into tears-
@Max DB - Always leaves me with a big lump in my throat.
Because those tears are real. Both he and Alex had to keep doing retakes because both of them kept crying for real due to how emotional the scene was. 😢
One more: In The Impossible Astronaut, River tells Rory that one day she'll see a past version of the Doctor, and he won't know who she is, and that she thinks it will kill her. In Silence in the Library, she tells Donna that the Doctor doesn't recognize her, and that it kills her. Moffat you magnificent bastard.
3:56 The top bit before the lightbulb part of the screwdriver looks like it's made of copper/something copper-like. When River first gets it, it's brown but when 10 Doctor examines it, it's green. It probably turned green over the years (like the Statue of Liberty).
Yes, a very nice bit of detailing on the prop. I have the toy version of that sonic, and I plan to buy a second one and repaint it like the "new" version. Maybe even recreate the box.
excellent eye! I've never noticed that before!!
I got it when it originally released. They're very expensive now.
Peter Capaldi/Alex Kingston pulled off the old married couple so well, absolutely amazing chemistry. Even down to scenes without the other, Capaldi pulls off that “My wife” line perfectly.
Well, he is married.
“It’s my birthday” River says in the same episode she is actually born on Demons Run. Coincidence?
Nope, it's a dead giveaway that makes people kick themselves on a second viewing for missing it the first time
I THINK *NOT* !!!
@@PenneySounds those are the best
@@PenneySounds that's actually how I figured it out! I already knew who her parents were but that's what made all of the /how/ fall into place
Well the baby in demons run is a month old. I just rewatched it. The people say that "it's been a month and still no sign of the doctor". The episode before was when Amy gave birth.
I'm surprised you didn't put in the scene with the length of the final night. That twist was my favourite part of the episode. But you sure edited this VERY well. Thank you for this, it reminds me just how amazing the show can be.
I left that out because it doesn't really connect to anything else. These videos are just to show the connections between different stories. If I include every cool moment, the videos will be really long and never make it past copyright.
The length of the final night is dumb. Just makes rivers sacrifice so much less tragic and delegitimizes everything she says in forest of the dead. ‘ the last time I saw you, your turned up on my doorstep (didn’t happen) with a new haircut and a suit (again the context doesn’t fit how she describes it)l you took me to darrillium (context is wrong again, they crashed there). To see the singing towers, the towers sang and you cried. (Yeh and then she is practically told this is the last time she’ll see him so why act so shocked in forest of the dead)
The story she tells in forest of the dead is 5 minutes of the very first hour they spend on darillium. There’s then another 24 years on top of that where they live a long and happy life. It is not as tragic as she makes out in series 4 and it’s in no way a life cut short like it’s suggested. And it’s also no way accurate to describe that 5 minutes as ‘the last time I saw you’. It’s incorrect, wrong and makes her sound retroactively dumb and whiny in forest of the dead. There’s no tragedy anymore. Moffat really, really missed the mark with husbands of River song. Completely shat over his own story.
This her ACTUAL story
‘The last time I saw you, the real you, the future you I mean. We’d just spent 24 blissfully happy years together as a married couple after you told me this is the last time we’re going to spend together. After I lived a long and happy life, longer than any human, and met every single incarnation of you. You then said goodbye for some reason and I went off to the library fully aware I wasn’t going to see a version of you again that knows who I am but I acted surprised, confused and upset for some reason when that very thing happened.’
It’s so annoying how the things Moffat makes her say are now only semi true from a certain point of view, if you ignore context and stretch the imagination just because of his pathological fear of having anybody undergo some sort of tragedy or loss or actual death.
@@obiwankenobi687 I literally juxtapose all those clips to show that what River described is exactly what happened.
@@PenneySounds it’s not though. It’s not exactly what happened. It’s what vaguely happened from a certain point of view if you stretch your imagination and the actual meanings on rhetorical phrases.
For one, the last time she saw the doctor was NOT the last scene of husbands of Riversong. It doesn’t make sense. The only thing river says in series 4 that actually happened is ‘the towers sang and you cried’
Nothing else runs in the context it’s described
Again, I put the scenes directly together. They all fit.
I cried during “The Husbands of River Song”. Like a baby. Capaldi was the perfect choice for the Doctor that took River to the Towers. It’s still one of the highlights of his tenure as the Doctor.
him saying “my wife” makes me so happy
River Song was always a brillant character and probably the best part of Moffat's run but dear god, did this final episode with Twelve elevated her to the pantheon of the greatest. My absolute favorite part is her little rant adressing how she knows she cannot be loved by the Doctor because no matter how special to him she is, she's still just a fleeting moment in his eternity of a life. And it's amazing to see how the Doctor is hurt to hear her say that.
Oh god that music at the singing towers of darillium always makes me burst into tears. So sad I never got to experience the doctor who music concert tours, and that they never actually released the song anywhere in full.
ruclips.net/video/7BMdEwekV_o/видео.html
Holy moly this is SO DAMN WELL EDITED. Ah the feels
The fact that River hinted towards the next 7 years of Doctor Who in the late 2008 is insane.
"my Wife wanted to see Stevie Wonder and that seemed like a romantic spot!"
love that
Something i lovedabout Rivers arc that I only realised after it ended, was that we always knew we'd see River again because we hadn't seen their last night
1:19 That subtle shift from enthused enjoyment to masked heartbreak, masterfully done,man I miss the Smith era
The way 12 mentions River every season just makes my heart go 🥰
Continuity in Doctor Who must be a nightmare, driving anyone given that job to a life of jibbering confusion. That it can pulled off at all is as amazing as the Singing Towers of Darillium.
["That's nice. Maybe they'll name the crater after us."]
It's so nice seeing the resolution of the story line
Because we see in the first meeting, that the doctor made a solution, he found a way to save her, but he doesn't know what that solution was, just how to execute it
So we can only assume that heart break he feels when the day is upon him and he knows the solution, and that he has to make sure it goes without a hitch
That incredible acting by capaldi in there last scene, is fantastic. Some of the best acting in the entire franchise from that under appreciated man ❤️
The moment he saves river to the database, turns to the library and she smiles, the music there, his reaction, Scene still sends so many feelings. Even more now after seeing them compiled in one shot like this. So epic, so well done by the writers and actors. These moment of wibbly wobbly timey wimey are what made this show so memorable and great.
The library episode was one of the first episodes a friend showed me (along with dont blink) that got me instantly hooked on this show.
I know that for the Doctor, the events in The Library are established history, but I still imagine 12 designing River’s sonic to look like 10’s sonic and thinking “This is really gonna mess with his head” like an inside joke with himself.
Absolutely perfect. Thank you for bringing all these clips together!
This is a terrific video! Moffat did an incredible job telling River's story out of order. I hadn't even noticed the repetition of the "when the wind stands fair" line.
i like Rivers "He doesn't like endings". Brings back to when the doctor ripped the last page of the book he read to amy
"Unless theres two of them..."
Yeah the continuity is really on point here, holy fugnuts.
It gets even deeper, the idea that he spent years figuring out how to save her feeds into how he spent the same time figuring out how to save gallifrey. Solving a problem from regeneration to regeneration
"Remember when there were two of you-" Before this line, I was actually wondering about the continuity, since that scene was clearly two 11's rather than 11 and 12. But that line proves that that wasn't actually the night they went to Darilliam- just one of the many times he said they'd go and then cancelled.
Yet another brilliantly edited masterpiece. Thank you! 😄
Twelve and River worked so well as a TARDIS couple. I remember when their last episode aired, i cried so hard. They had such an amazing chemistry. I wish they would've done more with both of them together! I had always thought Susan looked like River... And Bill looked like Susan.... Will the producers please make it official that Bill is actually related to the Doctor?
just about the only way they could have possibly pulled off a romance with a character as immortal and ever changing as the doctor. It can never happen again.
I remember in the library episode she asked the doctor if he reckonized her, but since he didn't she knew this will be the last she'll see the doctor. It's remarkable how the show was able to keep what she said in line with the rest of the series.
I'm always bound to laugh and cry when River shows up. Ah you made me remember the pain again. Thank you for making this.
*“When the wind stands fair* and the night is perfect, when you least expect it, it blows when you need it the most.”
“Now and then, every once in a very long while, every day in a million days, *when the wind stands fair,* and the Doctor comes to call, everybody lives.”
I have never noticed that callback, even when I watched the episodes back to back. Impressive.
I love when I can draw attention to a connection in the show that someone hadn't noticed
The story always guaranteed to make me cry. "Nothing's sad til it's over. Then everything is." ~ Doctor #12, Peter Effing Capaldi
"Unless there's two of them"
"Now, that's a whole different birthday"
Wow that aged well
Part of the reason I made this is because I have a video of the minisodes "First Night" and "Last Night" edited together, and a lot of people were asking if they are canon or if they were retconned out of the story by "The Husbands Of River Song". But if you listen carefully at 3:36, she references those minisodes in that episode.
This edit was *beautiful*. Thank you.
I really want to see the doctor in the library again talking with river about whatever problem hes having
I noticed something today that I never connected the dots to; at 4:18 when he’s showing her the screwdriver and playing around with it, he scanned her head with the sonic end. That’s the moment he saved a copy of her to the screwdriver
I love how other timetravel media fights so hard not to interact with their past selves, but Here's 11 having a conversation with 11; Not even another regeneration! just himself
Thank you so much for this, such a great edit of yours 👏👏👏❤️ I love River and the Doctor ❤️ . Wish we got to see more of them with his 10th and especially 12th incarnation 😍🤩
Her whole arch is amazing. Completely out of time but makes more sense than some things in life.
She should return every so often like The Master. Timelords could reach back and gave her more regenerations, or give her a new body for the back up.
She could end up with the diner TARDIS after a few adventures with the girls. Or even become a mother to Jenny.
That is true, plus, if anything, the library’s Data Core is essentially a primitive version of the Gallifreyan Matrix, so the foundations for resurrection are possible, just as what happened with the Master during the Time War
The whole “that’s a different birthday” gets me. Hahah
The look on Matts face when River mentions the singing towers... heartbreaking.
I loved how everything came together! Beautiful done!
not me sobbing again for another River Song edit, I love this character SO MUCH, omg... ♥
Good job writers and showrunners here - I am a big fan of Eleven and Twelve now, and I loved all these super-archs between River, Amy/Rory, Clara and others and how many callbacks and call-forwards I picked up on. It's beautiful.
Tears in my eyes now. Cheers set me up for the rest of my day.
i really wish we got more 12 and river together but i loved the husbands of river song one of my all time favorite christmas episodes
@Ellen Lee - Heavily concur. (I also loved the Nardole character. I'm glad he made a comeback.)
Great video. River Song's story has to be one of Doctor Who's best every storylines
I seriously want someone, anyone to piece together river songs timeline in the correct order
There's a fan edit called "The River Song Chronology"
ruclips.net/video/srC5HglwYwY/видео.html This one by The Confession Dial is pretty good!
ruclips.net/video/srC5HglwYwY/видео.html This one by The Confession Dial is pretty good!
The one by The Confession Dial is pretty good! Think it’s “The Timeline of River Song”
I’ve got it as:
1. A Good Man Goes to War
2. The Impossible Astronaut/Day of the Moon
3. Let’s Kill Hitler
4. Closing Time
5. The Wedding of River Song
6. First Night/Last Night
7. First Night/Last Night (River after 5 years)
8. A Good Man Goes to War (Frost Fair)
9. A Good Man Goes to War (Demons Run)
10. The Impossible Astronaut/Day of the Moon
11. Bad Night/Good Night (River is offscreen)
12. The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang
13. The Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone
14. The Wedding of River Song (Amy’s Garden)
15. Last Night (failed trip to Darillium)
16. Rain Gods (they talk about trying to go to a restaurant)
17. The Angels Take Manhattan
18. The Husbands of River Song
19. Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead
20. The Name of the Doctor
This is based on the Confidential episode for The Wedding of River Song, which lists her timeline up to meeting Amy in her garden.
I am so very, very happy that they were able to conclude this story arc, and so amazingly beautifully, too.
Your compilations are just always so good, thank you!
Wow the writing across series!!! The mind of Moffat.and thank you so much Penney for making this video to clear things up. ❤️
"Unless there's 2 of them"
2023 is paging River Song.... 😝
I love these videos bc I don't have a good enough memory to rewatch
Not everybody has committed the show to memory like I have. When I first watched "The Husbands of River Song", the instant there was that line at the beginning about a haircut and a suit I was like "Oh boy, this is it."
This compilation actually gave me more closure, thanks.
In chronology the first time he met her was the last time she saw him.
Nerd
If you've noticed after the meta crisis Doctor leaves is the 10th doctor never wears his blue outfit again because the meta crisis doctor took it
Thank you for this video! I missed some of the scenes!
Friggin best Doctor Who fan made video to date! It's like you put the answers to all my River questions in one video!
I think you also should have included the clip in "The Return of Doctor Mysterio" where Nardole said "she died, a very long time ago, in a library" and the part where he said "24 years, what a night"
The last line reminds me of the end of The Doctor Dances
what's broke me was when the Doctor said "I always see you!"it's still so vivid in my memory😭
After 3 regenerations The Doctor never forgot River while River always remembered The Doctor
I mean, when you think about it, a show based around time travel being disrespectful to its own continuity would just be shoddy work.
Credit where it's due, the River Song arc was pretty brilliantly executed.
thanks, i didn't need to cry today
Okay, I admit it, I used a deleted scene in this one.
I don’t think it’s a deleted scene, it’s part of the “night” home vid series (first night, last night, good night, bad night)
The deleted scene is from "Thin Ice", when 12 mentions Stevie Wonder. It's not in the episode. But it really should have been.
@@PenneySounds ohhhhhh
But if anyone hasn't seen "First Night/Last Night", I do have a minisode playlist they may want to check out.
@@PenneySounds - How do people in The USA access the various mini-sodes? Whenever I have tried, I could not from the USA. I understand the BBC's desire to protect the rights of the British people who have paid for the series, but it is frustrating. >_
When the Doctor says to River "there's always a Song" I like to believe he's referring to her.
That look between the two Doctors when River mentions the singing towers, can't be beaten!
It still gets me, after all this time.
to be fair river song runs on continuity
Man, i'm so thankful we had Moffat as showrunner. That man knew how to right a story.
Thanks for making me cry. Again.
"I just got a hair cut, this is my best suit" was spoken so fast it is easy miss.
Its not even a suit
This is a very underrated fan made mock up. What an amazing clip compilation!!!
Oof the paradox, now that I realize it. Tennant asks why he would give her his screw driver, that he would be thinking of a way to save her but then he already knows because has the screwdriver with her consciousness but he would only know to do that if he thought of it and searched but he doesn't need to search... You get it. Thinking about time travel and paradoxes gives me a headache and I do it anyways 🤣
They did wonders with River's continuity...and it hurts every time
River screwdriver would have been so much better if The Doctor had kept the blue one until Capaldi. Along the series he could have modified it and fixed it when it become damaged until eventually it resembled the one seen in the library.
True, and it was always the best design. The claw one and the weird blue one never looked as good to me
But I assume the one he gives her was built out of one of the damaged ones. Either the one Prisoner Zero chewed up, or the earlier one he burned up in the x-ray machine on the moon.
"Theres always a loophole, you wait until the last moment then spring it on me." Then he proceeds to do the same here and lets river think the only have 1 night together, qhich is 20 years
I would love if 14 or 15th doc would go visit her again
14 should totally visit her since it is Tennant again and she already knew that face of the Doctor
Okay the Stevie Wonder thing is genuinely brilliant
@Bradley Green - SHHHH! Don't tell him.