I married a man who was thinner when we met. I am a plus-size. He thought I was beautiful, smart, and caring. We were married for 36 years before he died of brain cancer. I miss his telling me that I looked pretty, that he loved me, and the way he liked to retell stories about our twin daughters. He also stayed home while I went out to work. He was a kind and gentle man who saw my worth. I would like to see how many wonderful and loving women have found their own loving men.
I have a family friend with a similar love story. Married a thinner man who became a homemaker while she worked full time at a high-powered corporate job.
My husband has always been thinner than I am. We are close in height. He’s always loved me very well. I actually think it is extremely common when I look around me. I also see fat men with thin women.
My husband weighs less than I do. We’re both what I think most folks would consider big people (he’s 6’3 and broad-chested, and I’m 6’ and with broad shoulders for a woman and a big chest and I’m just curvy no matter how thin or big I am) but we wear it differently. He’s my rock. I don’t know what I did to get so lucky to deserve him. Through our marriage I’ve had a lot of health problems, just seemingly one thing after another. I’m currently recovering from another major surgery and he’s having to help me with the most basic things while working too, _and_ helping our teenager with school. When I feel like I don’t deserve this or that I’m a burden, he reassures me that I’m not. That I’m loved. That he’s the one that would be lost without me. We’ve been through a lot, but we’ve done it together. We haven’t ever had a huge blowup fight, we always come to a consensus or agreement. We just work together well, along with loving each other so much. Looking back, I think we got married too young (I was 23, he was 26). It would have been so easy for us to have grown up more and to have grown apart. But we got lucky and we grew together. Which feels miraculous to me since both my parents were married multiple times and divorced each other when I was a toddler. Plus, all my grandparents were divorced and remarried too, and some of my great-grandparents. When I was a kid divorce felt inevitable. But we’re coming up on 20 years, and unless he dumps me because my medical costs are getting too high (lol), I think we’ll make it farther just fine. If you count the time we were dating, then we’ve been together more than half my life, and I wouldn’t trade a single second of it. Even when I’m not sick, I don’t know what I’d do without him. I’d be completely lost, and I think he’d be lost without me too. We just work together along with being in love and that feels special.
As a midsized person who grew up doing musical theater, I was told constantly that I either needed to lose 40 pounds so that I could play the lead OR I needed to gain 40 pounds so that I could play the "fat" best friend. Honestly, I just wish I saw everyday people on screen where their weight isn't even brought up. We should have ALL sizes. And being "fat" or "ugly" doesn't evenly remotely have to be a part of the plot. They can just BE.
The very first popular sex goddess in movies, Theda Bara (a stage name), was both chubby and not even pretty, but her popularity was largely a result of how much skin she was ready to show in a new medium (film) whose conventions had not yet been established. However, once moviegoing lost its novelty factor and close-ups became common, as far as leading roles were concernted, svelte actresses and muscular actors quicky became and have remained the norm for over a century. Why? Because people go to the movies so they can enjoy a few hours of fantasy where they identify with a beautiful actress or handsome actor becoming romantically and sexually involved with a handsome male or beautiful female, and that usually translates into young and phsyically fit. Few want to see "everyday" people on the screen as leads. You can protest this, but you might as well protest that the sky is blue. Humans are wired to be turned on by youth and fitness. Even if some progressive movie studio were to bankroll a romantic comedy featuring "everyday" people who are about 20 to 40 pounds overweight, the typically fat American movie audience would avoid it, especially when competing movie studios will continue to present people who fit conventional norms of beauty.
@@Viracocha88 Personally, I think this is changing. It may be changing slowly, but it is changing. More and more people want to see every day people. And I don't think it's the same as protesting a blue sky. Things are already changing. We're already seeing more representation than every before. It's complacency like this that will keep us where we are. So keep fighting for the change you want to see!
@@kateashton8904 Nope, it's not changing now, nor will it change in the next 150 years. Currently the most popular actresses today under 40, such as Scarlett Johanson and Emma Stone, are slim and trim, as are actresses of an earlier generation, such as Sandra Bullock and Angelina Jolie. Ditto, Channing Tatum, Chris Evans, etc. In fact, leading men today are now expected to have totally ripped bodies, far exceeding what was expected of matinee idols of yore such as Clark Gable and even Sean Connery, who was a competitive bodybuilder starting out. Women complain that men are shallow, but the reality is that few females of any age today daydream about men who look like Jack Black or Seth Rogen. In a visual medium like movies and television, outer beauty will always trump inner beauty to get people to buy tickets or purchase a streaming service. But I do concede there is a grain of truth in what you say. General audiences across the west are fatter than ever, yet the celebrities they idolize are more extremely, even excessively, fit than ever. Personally, I'd like to see more people go back to the healthier eating habits of their grandparents and for stars to chill a bit about their bodies.
I go to an acting school and happen to be basically the only mildly curvy girl in my year. Drives me insane sometimes. The implicit bias and prejudice that goes along with it from my peers. And I've been cast so many times in the broad comedic side character roles, to the degree I'm emailing the head of school when we go back to tell him to give me at least one proper dramatic role. I'm sick of it. But it was a million times worse at my last acting school. The absolute obsession with appearance was terrible. Obsessing over things like neck lines and wearing thongs because God forbid you could see the outline of their underwear with their tights... At acting school where you spend all day with peers doing weird stuff. Or glorifying how they looked when they had eating disorders. It was disgusting.
I am surprised that as a historian she didn’t address this in the video… how were figures actually viewed at the time? I think it’s quite complex, and I would have liked to hear it explored in comparison to how it’s treated in the media
Indeed. Infact, Julia Quinn writing Penelope's character as undesirable because of her physicality is more a result of the fact that the books were written in the early 2000s (very bad time to be a plus size teenager btw). The genteel class at the time valued more status, money and connection (if affection was not involved) and these should have been the reasons for Penelope's lack of suitors and not her body, which was, at the time, probably regarded as more desirable (big hips for child bearing) than the physicality of the actresses portraying Daphne or Kate or Francesca...
Right, it was a hard time and if you were well padded, that meant that you/your family was successful enough to have plenty of food and able to sustain workers who did work for you and not having to do backbreaking labor to use up those calories. Also a well fed woman with seemingly generous hips was viewed as more healthy and likely to be able to produce healthy children and at the time it was all about making heirs that would survive to adulthood. In those times many children just didn't make it, and many women didn't make it through labor/delivery. It was a distinction from the working class who struggled to provide for themselves more often than not and used up any calories they managed with hard work, making them slim. Heaven forbid a high class women resemble a commoner.
Nicola Coughlan is brilliant in her lead role, and I think it says a lot about Shonda to have cast her for her amazing talent. I have a serious girl crush on her, she is the whole package. I am glad that she consented to being undressed and in a very intimate scene with Luke/Colin, that they didn't just disguise her nudity in something sheer or under covers. That would have been really disappointing. The love story they tell is so beautiful.
@@regencyrumours 12:00 Michaela Sterling in Bridgerton S4 is still a stereotype: a Magical Negro as well as a Sapphire. I'm not looking forward to this storyline. Sometimes changes are unnecessary. Francesca didn't need to be Queer representation as she was already representing Autism
@@suzygirl1843I've never seen that show but there's a lot of queer autistic people, probably even more % than among neurotypicals. why does white cishet have to be the norm, let's have all the diversity. I could jokingly say "he's white AND straight AND neurotypical? that's too much boring represantation in one person" 😂
@@suzygirl1843 My gut instinct is to say, 'Of course autistic people are NEVER queer! /s' but I feel like I might be missing something about your statement. It's been a little bit since I've seen season 3, but I don't remember enough of Michaela even showing up to *be* a stereotype. Has she been elaborated on in the promotional material, or something? I'd really like to understand what you're saying.
I love Nicola too!! Agree 100% that her performance and the love story was ON POINT! And so glad how Shonda re-wrote the story to not make her lose weight (unlike the book)
I love watching modern retellings of times of the 40s and 50s, cause my grandma lived through those times and she NEVER hesitates to say what they’ve gotten wrong, from hair to fits to overall ways of being. Our modern film storytelling lens DOES skew our perception of the past so much!
@@TheCaitlynStark My grandfather loved reading and when I visited I got to pick books from his collection to read. Many of them were inappropriate for my age and were funny satirical works from the fifties. The women were all voluptuous with round bottoms and breasts - so that’s what he liked and also men of his time apparently liked curvy women too.
I feel that way with films set in the 1980s, which was my childhood. I can tell the difference between a movie made to LOOK like the 80s and one made to FEEL like it's the 80s. The glossier the movie is, the less chance the people either lived through the 80s or Hollywood wanted to cater how young people think it was. The 80s were gritty as heck, AIDS was a real fear for half of it, and Reagan loomed large over how we perceived the world and the country.
The films of the times also skew our idea of it. Don't forget, while there was some censorship from 1907 on in US, it was under heavy media censorship with the Hayes Code from 1930s through 1960s. It's part of the nostalgia and why it's a nostalgia for a fake time and place, the world of 1950s media never existed. You'd get a better reflection of reality in films in 1920s or 1970s. For in between itd be better to talk to people or read memoirs.
@@bethdibartolomeo2042 I dunno, ALOT of 80s flicks are not gritty at all. Like the sort of teen preppy moment films, brat pack, etc. But yea you can tell the fashion because wannabe 80s fashion is alot more extreme and kinda better actually. It's like how real flappers wor sacklike dresses to below their knee with maybe some beads on the hem, but the flapper costumes are like made of fringe and super short. They take the flavor and they go too far.
@@bethdibartolomeo2042 The 80's was bright and colorful with fantastic movies and great music. The wall fell, The Cold War ended and life was looking grand. Most people gave no thought to AIDS and Reagan was beloved.
As a person who has seriously studied history and the history of art in particular, I have seen hundreds of ladies in old portraits who would now be called plus-size - ladies depicted in family portraits together with their handsome husbands and numerous children who look like both mom and dad. For many centuries, being a plump lady with a high bust, steep hips, round arms was the only way to be considered a beauty worthy of the attention of a real aristocrat, because only girls from rich noble families could eat enough to have a rounded figure. Look at old paintings - recognized aristocratic beauties of the 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th centuries have double chins and voluminous shoulders in portraits!
As part of this conversation plus size men are usually the funny guy and rarely the dashing any charming leading man. Would love to see a thick boy as Prince Charming without it being played for laughs.
Or villains, sadly. Well, can Shrek be considered a really good guy with true prince charming nature? For mature ladies, he is definitely the best. Well, in drama Vampire Prosecutor we have roundish faced guy as typical charming superhuman, hero and very subtle romantic interest, which is not typical for vampires. Still, he is quite slim... In romance otome girls c14 dating one of possible romantic route is with overweight gamer, who is sensitive, romantic and caring person. In Indian series, princes in their childhood are played by quite well-fed children.(Siya Ke Ram, younger version of Ram) After that, of course, he gets in shape... We definitely need more cool thicc guys played seriously.
Shrek? Sorry, and I know there are a lot of laughs, but he is the Prince Charming of the tale and does a quite respectable job of being so. And while there are some issues with Robin Hood with Kevin Costner, I loved Little John's family dynamic.
I agree that traditional type-casting has the fat guy as the clown friend. But in real life fat guys who are genuinely funny can be very sexy. It's a combination I notice. 😀
My grandmother had insisted that no man would love me unless I was thin. Yet my grandfather preferred that she not be thin. How ironic. I could never get it though my head that I was fine just the way I am. I'm now 71. I believe I am getting there.
We have to love and care for the bodies that we are in because it’s the only body that we get. That rarely has anything to do with losing or gaining weight.
I just always think period dramas miss the mark when they don't have more plus sized women considering these women are the subjects of lots of art for the time.
That's bec. period dramas often depict values and ideals contemporary to the time period, they were produced. Keira Knightley is an early 2000s ideal of w. femininity, not a 18th cent. one.
@@oliviastratton2169I think this is a false assumption though, a lot of larger framed women move a lot. I have always worked physically hard in my jobs and was always overweight, you can consume more calories than you work off regardless how much you work or have a slower metabolism. Lower class women most likely still had access to simpler carbs, dairy, butter,cream etc
I’m also so impressed by what Nicola Caughlan is doing with fashion. But conversations there also are more convoluted and focused on something being “flattering” as opposed to what the statement the fashion itself is making. It’s almost like we don’t have a language for it.
Yes, I predominately hear the word "flattering" when people are referring to others who are not thin rather than just speaking like they normally would about fashion!
Nicola being hot and fierce and hilarious on the press tour is literally why i started watching the show at all last week 😅 calling her “not hot” is so genuinely misguided
As a person who has seriously studied history and the history of art in particular, I have seen hundreds of ladies in old portraits who would now be called plus-size - ladies depicted in family portraits together with their handsome husbands and numerous children who look like both mom and dad. For many centuries, being a plump lady with a high bust, steep hips, round arms was the only way to be considered a beauty worthy of the attention of a real aristocrat, because only girls from rich noble families could eat enough to have a rounded figure. Look at old paintings - recognized aristocratic beauties of the 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th centuries have double chins and voluminous shoulders in portraits!
Growing up in the late 80s/ early 90s, I watched the BBC tv version of Pride and Prejudice. It starred Jennifer Ehle, who plays Elizabeth, isn't waiflike. With corsets and stays in modern-day productions, I think it's important to bear in mind that actors aren't given enough time to wear in their clothes (just as you would with shoes). And wardrobe departments haven't always been given the budget to clothe the cast and make undergarments that work for the person who's wearing them ❤
That is the best adaptation! Also, they wore short stays and petticoats in those dresses, which are much more like our modern bras and a slip. I wondered for years how Jennifer Ehle got her boobs to look like that in that movie. It was a serious topic of discussion between my friends and me: how do we get that look? I bought a balconette bra, years later, and when I looked in the mirror, I went, "THAT'S how she did it!" In general, the empire waisted gown is very flattering to more curvy ladies - and much less flattering to those who are less well endowed. That, in and of itself, might say something about the beauty standards of the time period. The fashions were geared more toward the Jennifer Ehles than the Kiera Knightleys of the world. Empire waists look great on curvy women. They look less than great on skinny women. I once had the pleasure of seeing a lot of curvy women dressed in empire waisted gowns; I attended a Jane Austen festival in which many of the attendees wore Regency style dresses of their own creation. Not only did I admire the talent and artistry, but I got to see what a custom-tailored regency gown looks like on your average American woman. We all know what our figures look like. Honestly, the ladies and the gowns were gorgeous! A lot of thin starlets just look pregnant in Regency gowns. But more voluptuous women wearing their own, custom-tailored works of art? Breathtaking. That's more akin to the time. People often wore clothes that they made, mended, tailored, or altered on their own - or that were made by a skilled modiste. Either way, some of those gowns were works of art. I left with an unexpected appreciation for fashion. I never really cared about fashion before, but it's different when you see people proudly wearing their own work. And that waistline? Super flattering - and comfortable! It lifts and supports the bust while flaring at the hips to allow for ease of movement. I'm wearing an empire waisted sun dress right now. When I walked into breakfast, the host literally did a double take and then practically fell all over himself telling me how much he liked my dress. It is a contemporary print and cut, but the general shape is the same. My point is that I think film crews could do at least as good a job as a book nerd with a sewing machine - or just a regular lady with a balconette bra and a flattering cut. It's a fairly easy style to adapt. I think we can, at least, hold wardrobe departments to that standard.
Nicola Coughlan is an absolute legend, it's so wonderful as an Irish person to see her raising awareness and money for the people of 🍉! She has handled this unfair the invasive press focusing on her body so well and has just flourished. She looks so good and plays all sides of Penelope so well! Such a great video with such good research and such a good structure. Kudos
I love how so many people suggest that attraction can only be physical, and that fat people can never be physically attractive. Like you said, when the male character is fat, there is often no question about whether the female character will find him attractive. But fat female characters can't just *be attractive* to someone. For any reason, really. And even if a character isn't initially physically attracted to someone initially, plenty of people only become physically attracted to others once they have developed close relationships with them in other ways. Demisexuality is a thing!
I definitely think shows like Bridgerton season 3 can show how love isn't always as straight forward as a rom com. My husband and I were longtime friends first with no thought of each other for a while, attraction can evolve and grow and isn't just about the physical! ❤
Oh my gosh, the woman who played Clytemnestra in my university production of Agamemnon weighed about 200lbs and her welcoming home of her husband made me blush. I've always been midsized since I hit puberty, and it had not occurred to me that ... Frankly, anyone playing the part the way she did would have made me blush, but she was extraordinary and sexy and whoof ... I hope she's had a long and prosperous career.
@@flibbertygibbette that is because women married for security. Wealth was a requirement and separated the common man from royalty. Whereas men married to secure the bloodline.
Shrimpel didn’t write that article as anything other than a personal attack due to Nicola’s calls for a ceasefire and raising money for Palestinian children.
Exactly. It's like Nicola's stance for Palestinians gave her permission to completely rip into beautiful Nicola. So sickening. The "journalist" is a sad, ignorant, prejudiced anti-human snob.
Thank you for speaking the straight facts. It's devastating how badly yon bush is getting beaten around, how afraid people are to talk about Palestine. And if we don't get loud and persistent, get brave, resolute, pierce through all the deflection and censoring; this hell isn't going to stop.
I am plus size and had several boyfriends explicitly wanting me as I am. They were thin and very handsome, one of them could have even worked as a model. Sometimes I thought he was too beautiful for me. 😂 Our relationship lasted 4 years. The lesser thin men who I was interested in never were interested in me. So it was vice versa to what movies and shows want us to believe. Men are not that superficial. They want more than good looks.
You've been very lucky. Every one of my relationships have been with men who didn't think I was pretty and would tell me that they loved me anyway, in spite of my looks, like they were doing me some great favor. Hard to be in a relationship when you don't feel you measure up. Maybe that's why I prefer being single.
I think there's more to it than that. Men can be superficial and care about looks, but also have their own preferences. Not all men are into the waif aesthetic, and I think that's something that society should recognise and celebrate instead of making all non-waiflike women feel horrible about themselves!
Same here. I'm black and very curvy and I attract great looking guys. My boyfriend is over 6ft , six pack abs and very good looking. He loves plus size women 😍
I have always been on what is considered as plus sized. The smallest I've ever been was a size 10 for a short period of time. Most of the time I was a size 18 or larger. I once was trying to lose weight (I was about a 16 at the time) and my BF didn't want me to lose. He didn't like skinny women. I have found LOTS of men like voluptuous women. Like Nicola implied, you don't normally get perfect boobs being skinny.
I would like to highlight that, in the books the Bridgerton series is based on, Penelope loses weight before she and Colin get together. Shonda Rimes choice to have Penelope change her hair and clothing but not her size is the right one and the critics can go watch the many other period dramas featuring thin leads if this offends them.
I thought she looked slimmer in season 3 compared to the previous two, but it could have been the more flattering costuming I suppose. At least, if she did lose weight, it wasn't because the show pressured her to do it.
The whole corset thing is much more complicated. For one thing, the actresses who star in these period pieces are likely angling for an award, more critical acclaim, access to better roles, etc. The Vanity Fair/ Vogue/ Harper’s Bazaar interview in which they detail allllllll the exhausting and awkward elements of getting into character is by now a rather tired convention used to signal ‘I aM a sErIOUs ACTRESS aNd A cOnTenDer’. (much as actors talk about losing weight, putting on muscles, using a prosthetic nose etc) I don’t doubt that wearing a corset (especially one that’s ill-fitted and not styled correctly by someone with more than a passing sense of historical women’s undergarments) feels very strange and ‘uncomfortable’ to modern actresses. Quite often actresses are shoved into one without any garment underneath! Women of the past would find this very uncomfortable too (which is why they avoided it). Corsets/ stays of the past also avoided painful restriction by…. not using corsets to significantly reduce the wearer’s waist. There were extremists then (unfortunately the images we have of corset-wearers are of these extremists), and there are many extremists now. I actually think it’s much more of a sexist standard to expect the naked female body to just arrange itself into the perfect fashionable figure - it’s the root cause of most cosmetic plastic surgery these days. Women of the past had fluctuating figures, but they didn’t chastise themselves for gaining some girth here or there. They could easily adjust their undergarments. It was understood that female bodies change shape often dramatically (pregnancies). The voices I’d be listening to mostly are historical costuming experts and actual historical accounts written by everyday women who used corsets over their lifespans.
Yes! For anyone curious, please check out Bernadette's channel and other historical costume experts for more information on corsets. They are not supposed to be restrictive and harmful in the way dramatised by movies.
I remember Jeri Ryan in an interview talking about passing out on set and an entire outfit being retired because she literally couldn't breathe in it. It really annoys me when people just say 'oh the actresses have no idea, they are bashing corsets with no knowledge'. Of course they are, it's not their job and they are being kinda tortured by the people who should know better.
@@carly7522the point is they are being put in the wrong corsets or being made to wear them too tightly. I've done 2 shows in corsets. The first I wore a corset for hours going up amd down stairs singing and telling ghost stories at an event in Salem. It was every weekend for several weeks and I loved how that corset, which was an historical replica, supported my back. It was fantastic. Later I did a 6 week run of Caberet as a Kit Kat dancer. We started wearing our corsets that were not super expensive about a month before opening. We wore them over tshirts at rehearsals to break them in. The first week they were stiff. By the time we opened we could all high kick, bend, twist, etc. We loved them. They were a lot of fun to wear. Very secure and supportive.
That is a very good commentary. I would add another aspect to the body representation (or lack thereof) in period drama, or in the media in general, and that is the body shape. Nicola Coughlan is not only plumper than the previous leads - she is way more voluptuous. I think her body is the one that is one of the least visible ones in the media: short and small but busty and soft all-over at the same time. We have many famous women who are very curvy and busty, but also tall and strong-framed (e.g. Sophia Loren, Sophia Vergara, Kim Bassinger, Christina Hendricks), but not so many ones that are short and compact, and for that her softness being the dominant feature. Many smaller busty celebrities are still 'in proportion' and with still have some sharp features like their noses or shoulders (e.g. Scarlett Johanson, Brigitte Bardot). The majority of small women in the media is a typical petite, though, with no bigger busts or bums. And Nicola is not that. She is small AND lush. Her bust when corseted literally reaches her collarbone. Her shoulders are narrow and soft, her arms are soft, her face is soft. All of her bone structure is hidden by her flesh. Even her fingers are delicate and soft and fleshy at the same time. And we have our eyes trained so much on "boney" and frame-dominant body shapes that we automatically see her as plus-size, when she is objectively not. I have been having a girl crush on her since S3 (I never watched Bridgerton before that) and I think she is absolutely gorgeous. I have been using her as style and makeup inspiration since then (I have similar features to her, just on average human level). I really do hope we will see more of her and women like her, and women with other under-represented body types, in the media in the future.
@@Emma95-g9f All that - and she is also kind. She has already raised millions on good causes like aid for Palestinian children or support for LGBT+ folks.
small, lush, small shoulders, delicate fingers, pale and soft face... in regency and victorian era, she would be considered a Venus! She is wonderfull, by the way. I'm as straight as an arrow, but her cheeks made me desire to kiss and touch and cuddle them =D
I find the last part very interesting. About the media only depicting thin women as the love interest in period dramas, so it skewed our vision of how a person deemed attractive would look back then. I save a lot of old artwork from around the world, from the Mesopotamian era, from the 1950s, from the Ife era in Nigeria, etc., in a Pinterest board. So it means, I save some European paintings from the 19th century and in those paintings. People with Pen/Nicola’s physique are quite common. So to me, it wasn’t a shocker to see her as the love interest. She looked like she belonged in a renaissance painting in all of her shots. I liked that the show didn’t make her lack of suitors about her size, but more about her lack of confidence. In previous seasons, she always wore dresses that were ill fitted, I always took it as her mom not really knowing how to dress her, such as making her wear yellow, even though it doesn’t really suit her. (I’m sure yellow looks great on Nicola, I mean, it just doesn’t fit Penelope’s character). But this season, she finally wears clothes that fit her figure, no longer hiding herself and her actual figure, taking space and like this attracting potential suitors.
That's such a great example of a great "transformation" like Penelope's without someone needing to lose a bunch of weight or be a completely different person
Such a pity you were exposed to the Kiera Knightly version of Pride and Prejudice first, rather than the BBC 1995 version. Jennifer Ehle version. Jennifer is probably considered slim (at least more recently) but she is not depicted that way in the BBC version. She is bustier and seems more full bodied. It is also her wit that is emphasised.
Honestly, I think Elizabeth was supposed to be kind of skinny and flat-chested in the book. Jennifer Ehle might be busty, but she isn’t any larger than a US size 6, not even “mid-size”.
@@Cybele1986I have no idea where you got that notion. She’s a little too fond of walking but nothing is said of her size. Perhaps you saw the film before you read the book?
We also have to remember that these famous people are being told to wear corsets the modern way... tightlacing, thinning, etc, all important to the stage. I still think corsets are not these things (as somebody who wears them) because I don't experience that and I know that their experience with is going to be drastically different due to the way their industry treats them
I also thought Emma Thompson and Kate Winslet in Sense and Sensibility looked exactly like the early 19th century portraits of young women from Art History class.
As a '90s kid, it was a real culture shock to read Pride and Prejudice because the narrator talked about the thinner characters like they were less attractive. It was fascinating to learn about a world where (when) the beauty ideal favored larger bodies. And it was a shock once again to watch the movie with Kiera Knightly, which cast remarkably thin women as the film's "beauties" like Jane. It's been a pet peeve for me ever since. I love all the costumes and settings of period pieces, but it really takes me out of the moment when almost all the actors fit beauty standards that didn't exist at the time. When it happens across the entire genre, it sends this message to viewers that our ideas of thinness being beautiful are timeless when they're really not.
I really didn't like all the body talk around Bridgerton. Especially when Netflix put out BTS videos of Nicola at dress fittings talking about her "weight loss journey" and how difficult her dress fittings were for the costumers. I thought it was totally inappropriate. I wish her body and size weren't a topic of conversation. There were other plus sized actors on the show, but they haven't been given any discussion.
9:19 I think a lot of the problem is those corsets are 1. not historically accurate - they are modern to create a vision the director or costumer has had, not functional items of clothing. 2. probably not properly fitted to the actresses like they would have been historically, they are likely too small and or overtightened, when they should just rest against you and add support where needed, being tailored specifically to you (not just a rough size etc).
Umm… Ever seen Sense and Sensibility? Because…Kate Winslet. She’s not plus size but she is what you’re calling midsize, or what I would call normal. Either way she’s not super skinny. And she had two men after her.
She was definitely a US size 2/4 in that film. Her Titanic costumes were about a size 4/6. She looked like a lot of portraits of women at that time. Most of them were thin. What we call “mid-size” (an 8/10 to about a 14) would have been considered chubby
Kate Winslet did have some anxiety about her weight for the film and thought she should lose weight. It was Emma Thompson who told her that she did not need to.
Bridgerton is as fatphobic as the rest of them. Nicola had to fight to show her body, whereas other actresses are just expected to show their body. In her character's romantic season, they had to pile on the sex and romance of several other couples to feed the public more "acceptable nudity" and slender romantic figures alongside Pen, whereas previously the primary couple were very clearly center stage amidst the other subplots and showed a lot more skin more often.
I also dislike how they chose Nicola to be kind of a "villain" throughout the entire series. S2 made the viewer dislike Penelope for betraying her friends. If they had maybe cast Nicola as Daphne instead it would have been interpreted very differently. Like why is the "plus sized character" not centre stage but also the villain? I didn't like it.
What I didn't like too is that, as far as I remember, she's the ONLY overweight young woman. There should have been multiple background actresses at the balls, etc. that normalized various body types. In Julia Quinn's book, the character lost weight before she was seen as a romantic lead. But Shonda specifically wanted to make it about friends not really seeing eachother and Penn coming into her own via confidence and embracing her own style. If that was the point, then the world of Bridgerton would show more body shape and size diversity with romantically successful plump girls and not just racial diversity. Pen appeared as the only young lady in her circle who was plump and therefore as some sort of oddity.
I remember at least 1 other, named and recurring, plus size débutantein the show. If it can make you feel better. She's happily engaged by the end of S3 if I remember correctly@@robtooley4002
The prejudice of the article is obvious in the use of 'mixed weight', as opposed to 'mixed physique'. There is a significant height differences between Coughlan and her co-star, she likely still weighs less than him or similar weight. But saying mixed weight sounds more appalling because of the idea that women cant take up more space than men, especially on the scale.
Mrs Patmore is neither bumbling, or dim witted, she is exceptional in her work, a loving mother figure to Daisy, and a wonderfully quick witted character. I have to go back and watch the rest of this video since I have been writing this.
I agree! when she named Mrs. Patmore as being one of those examples, I was like, "if anything, the poor woman is frazzled by circumstances outside her control" it's been a minute since I watched Downton but I don't remember her negatively or as comic relief, really. just a sweet older lady who cared a lot OOOOHHHHH I just remembered it's because she needed glasses, so she made mistakes that wasn't really that funny but ok, I see maybe where "bumbling" could come in
Likewise. Also her inclusion of Mrs Fitz from Outlander is totally wrong, Mrs Fitz as a character is one of the most practical, efficient, skilled and hard-working manager of an entire castle-estate ever portrayed, as well as motherly, loving, smart and incisive - certainly not a 'bumbling servant'!
Mrs. Patmore is exceptionally brisk-witted and skilled at her job, but she is also uneducated, as were most people in the servant class at the time, who went to work very young and who were worked to the point of exhaustion every day of their lives. Who had time to read after working an 18 hour day? Who could read above a third-grade level? Who could afford books? Who had a moment's worth of time to converse with anyone about history, philosophy, ethics, etc. She had the makings of an excellent conscience and innate wisdom, but she was also prejudiced, xenophobic, and susceptible to con artists like her would-be husband who only wanted to exploit her for his own gain.
I was born in 1985, so my formative P&P was the 1995 BBC. Both actors playing Jane and Lizzy are way closer to my body type than typical Hollywood stars. They really matched the regency era beauty standards. It’s worth noting the beauty standards of that era were also quite limited. Sadly, we struggle to let people be their natural weights without shame across time periods. At least past eras allowed people to shape their bodies with stays, corsets, and cushions. I wish we had more of that than a deeply broken diet/exercise culture.
What’s crazy to me about the Bridgerton discourse is that all of my group of very straight sized, very young-millennial-grew-up-with-fatphobic-media women, all agreed that what we don’t enjoy about the season is: Colin. His character arc just isn’t convincing making him annoying, and arrogant, and that’s a turn off. Zero issue with Penelope/ Nicola - she looks amazing and is absolutely convincing as a romantic lead, I just wish they gave her a better love interest
The second I saw what they did to him in the trailer to try and make him "hot" to the masses, I IMMEDIATELY felt the urge to vomit. He could not have encapsulated "ick" more to me in that moment- and throughout the rest of the season.
Size aside - they fall into 2 categories - "slim and thin" and curvy. Its always the curvy characters that get labelled plus sized, even if theyre really not. Basically period dramas just dont like female characters that have a good pair of "girls". I make historical costumes, am a curator of a small museums costume collection, and historical fiction never represents realities. That said, wearing corsets for long periods of time during the day, does change the way you eat - at least it did for me. WHen I wore them every week for events I did eat differently on those days and felt fuller for longer. One doctor even came out and blamed stretchy clothes as being a cause of weight gain, and in a way that can be true, as we dont notice that one pound youve put on. But - You covered the topic really well. Thankyou - u have a new subscriber!
You're so right about this. We have over a century of filmed images of people that were heavily edited, through casting in the first place, to remove bigger people from view, and deny any that were allowed to appear to have respect, love, or idealization. It is so very internalized. I, as a "stocky" woman, just naturally expect any heavy character to have to be cheated on, not chosen, laughed at, or otherwise relegated to "not first choice". It really is sad. When I compare it to how badly POC were treated by mainstream entertainment for so long, it really guts me to feel how badly an entire group of people in our world were made to feel by being eliminated, overlooked, or derided. We have so much to unlearn, to let people live with the rights that all of us deserve. It's shameful that so much still continues to treat people badly. Do we do it in the hope that they will "go away'? They are not going away. We share the planet with all of these people who have been cast into inferior roles in the world. How many gifts and talents have we wasted from those we reject? We all need to wake up. Everyone's gifts need to be celebrated and preserved for the benefit of all of us.
I wore corsets for ten hours a day when I worked the Dicken's Faire. I can tell you right now that if your corset is affecting you like that, then it was NOT properly fitted and was way too tight. Have your corset made for you and do not lace it that tightly! A properly fitted corset is incredibly comfy and gives great back support. It's no worse or better than a bra in terms of comfort and it was great for my back. If these costumers are lacing the actresses in that tightly, they should be schooled by actual historians and corset makers.
Corsets/stats were the same as bras. You undoubtedly had people of the time who had properly fitted ones and just as many ones badly fitted. How many people go and get their bras properly sized these days? I still remember going to Penneys and having a bra fitting in 1990. Catherine's brick and mortar stores still did them until COVID shut down all of them.
Thought the story between them was more truthful than the other ones in series 1 and 2. Liked the fact that they used someone like Nicola who may be plus sized but very beautiful to look at. Daphne’s and simon were good to look at but I thought the connection was very wooden, especially Simon. Anthony and Kate yet again typical good looking, but their relationship is only based on Anthony wanting to bed her at every opportunity, which can get really boring. Their is another film called Dumpling starring Jennifer Anniston who has a very plus sized daughter, who ends up with the good looking fella at the end, but it worked so well just like with Nicola.
U mean her begging him to kiss her or him throwing out a proposal after he finger bang her. Or is it that she discriedts him an his family all the time or why I can't even name wht Colin does or why pen even like him let alone love him..
Have to disagree. Ignoring the books (because I know the love between Penelope and Colin has a strong foundation there), I have no idea why Colin likes Penelope in the show. They clearly show why Penelope likes him, but it's not at all clear outside of him starting to fantasize about their kiss why his love is genuine. On the contrary, both of the previous couples had parts of their personality that they clearly were connected with, Kate and Anthony especially. It's clear their attraction isn't just sexual but based on shared values: competitive nature, responsibility and love for family, etc I don't like Daphne and Simon though I could see the argument there being that the focus seems to be on Daphne's introduction to sex in a way that takes away from any shared bond. However I think it still shows how they share a playful nature in how they poke fun of the Ton and has moments where it's clear they admire each othwr for the actions they take. I feel like that's the weakest part of season 3. I have no idea what Colin admires about Penelope. I know he's supposed to admire her writing, her kindness, her bravery in pursuing what she wants. But the presentation of their season makes that connection hard to see because he spends most of it either clueless about his feelings or actively being cruel to her because of that sense of betrayal. It's awful to watch
Wow, that is a biased and very incorrect take. Daphne and Simon had real chemistry, it was a great love story and it was believable. Same with Kate and Anthony. If you watch the show you see that they have interesting and plausible relationship dynamics and those seasons where still well made, in stark contrast to the third season. They changed the show runner, the immersion breaks completely, the dresses and language are or period appropriate anymore, there is zero buildup to Pen and Colins relationship, the lines are cluncy, the camerawork is terrible and has contunuity errors and they fill the plot with irrelevant side storys. Thats why season 3 was terrible, not bc of the actors and thats why everyone focuses on the negative.
@lydwiniaeathelyn5004 Colin loves and admires Penelope because she, along with her kindness, bravery and warmth, makes him feel more confident in himself and also helps him find himself. She suggests first that he should start travelling (which becomes something he adores immensely), and when he writes his journal, also encourages him to publish it. He felt insecure about his writing so she reassured him and that's what he also loved about her. Penelope was also one of the only, if not *the* only person who didn't make fun of him for travelling or got bored of him like his family did, but more than that, she was quite interested in his travels and they communicated a lot through letters between s1 and 2 when he was travelling. They often joked during balls which is another way they connected. Colin felt protective of her from the beginning (saving her from Cressida in the first episode) and he loved dancing with her. Just as he said that his love for her wasn't a thunderbolt from the sky, there wasn't an actual moment where he went from not loving her to loving her. He had a soft spot for her since they met and it's just one of those love stories where there might not be a specific reason or thing that made them fall in love (very predominant in friends to lovers tropes). They were friends, very close, often communicating, liked each other's company, encouraged and supported each other to be better. Colin found Penelope to be quite smart and amusing, plus she always saw him on the inside and knew him better than anyone so of course they fell in love. The kiss was just something that made Colin realise Penelope could be seen in a romantic setting as well, not just platonic. I agree it could have been highlighted better, but there are a few times in the season where Colin says how Penelope is the only one who has truly seen him for who he is and also made hom feel like thatm
Can I say that one thing media did was make me feel ashamed for being in love. Romance felt cringe because we didn't looked like movie stars. Like if only buff manly guys could swipe you off your feet and beautiful small women could drive someone crazy. I had to get over it while planning my wedding
Yes, this is so real! It felt humiliating to have feelings for someone because I'm not the type of girl that can be picked up and swung around in an embrace. Like, how dare I even imagine being desired.
As an MT/opera veteran, I can only say I would have been so grateful for representation like Coughlan when I was surviving on 800 calories a day in order to get roles. That was untenable, and while I'm much healthier now, I have awful anxiety about my appearance on stage. I feel like nobody is judging my abilities, solely my looks.
Ah I'm so sorry! I did research for one of my other videos about opera singers in the Regency Era and how scrutinised their appearances were, and I thought ugh, some things never change!!
No sorry on what planet is Mrs Patmore (Downton Abbey) stupid? She's a brilliant chef/cook, she's kind, emotionally intelligent, nurturing towards Daisy, Ivy, Mrs Hughes, Lady Sybill and Anna (amongst others), uses food the army pays for to feed wounded ex soldiers in a soup kitchen, is witty, sarcastic and she knows enough to figure out that a man isn't inclined towards women in 1912, when it wasn't legal and certainly wasn't talked about openly.
I really appreciated that Penelope’s shyness and lifelong overshadowing by her mother and sisters played a big role in her wall flower-ness, and her external appearance issue was her being made to wear unflattering dresses. I know her weight was kind of mentioned, but I felt like they downplayed it. As for Colin not considering her because of her weight, yes that could be argued as a factor. But it’s just as likely that having grown up with her as his sister’s best friend he might’ve just subconsciously put her in a pseudo-sibling category. His character (in the show) is a dreamer who romanticizes his older brothers’ behavior of “gaining worldly knowledge” and wants his own adventure, but he seems to want the same storylines as everyone else…maybe slightly different. No one else he knows fell in love with and married their friend, how could he think that’s an option if it’s never been an example? His return from travels and pretending to be a playboy and then realizing he’s not into it seems to be when he starts to think outside the box. I do wish that when he says “I would never marry Penelope” that we got some clarification on it. Was he feeling pressured to fit in with other guys? Was he thinking of her as a sister? Was he thinking that if he did try to court her, Eloise would pummel him!? 😂
You know, I love the casting of Claire Fraiser in Outlander, but in the books quite a lot is said about her fat arse. I have started imagining her a lot more like my own grandmother who was of the same era than the actress on TV. My grandmother who always wore skirts even in the 80s and 90s cause she was self conscious of her backside. Whereas to me she was just soft and lovely.
The corsets used for many productions are NOT designed for the outerwear of the time period depicted. Corsets and stays were designed not only for a siloette, but to take the weight of the fabrics and ne anle fot women ( and men) to MOVE snd be comfortable! That is one of the main reasons these actors cannot breathe!
One point that still should be made about All of these archetypes, especially the "boss babe" is that these are usually women who are "allowed" to not be conventionally thin and attractive anymore accoridng to the perspective of our current society. They are older, offen postmenopausal, mothers. They've already fulfilled their "purpose" biologically. And if you've already had kids, and you're too old to be an object of desire, who's going to care that you aren't thin? Most women gain weight after having kids anyway, much less 100 plus years ago when women often had more children.
You are blaming improper use of the tool ie corset. If you know anything about period clothing you should understand that corset makes the shape. The blame should fall on the costume designer and the studio for not hiring and using proper corset.
As stunning as she is, I’ve always felt so frustrated that Kieren Knightly was so prominently cast in period dramas and presented to be the ideal of beauty for the times.
I have always wondered this. Keira Knightley is beautiful and a talented actor, but her beauty is definitively "modern". It's weird why they would keep casting her as a Regency or Victorian heroine. I do see her fitting into the roaring 20s or the 1930s/ 1940 era - her casting in Atonement was chef's kiss - but not pre-1900s...
I really enjoyed your video. Overall, the media has always portrayed plus-size women as servants, older women, or comedic relief. I wasn't attracted to Brigerton until I saw it was going to be Penelope's season and saw the trailer. I still feel they could have done so much better with her season, definitely felt that we needed more romance and happy moments. However, her casting and representation has been key to make feel more women as seen. She is stunning, and I can't even take seriously anyone who says she isn't.
Listening to you, I sincerely thank my mother for instilling in me from a young age that healthy is more important than thin and that love is conditional on personality, not appearance.
With regard to corsets (and sorry if someone else mentioned this, I don’t want to scroll through all the comments), historical stays and corsets were worn as foundation garments. Some people did tight lace, but that was rare, and even at the time was thought to be a weird thing to do. Modern corsetry has been used differently, but if a corset is well made and fit to the person wearing it, it can be worn for prolonged periods of time very comfortably. Historical shows/movies need to do more research honestly IMHO.
In addition, just like you might have a strapless bra for an evening dress today, most people laced tighter for special events than they did for everyday. They also had different corsets and stays for pregnancy and nursing.
I love how they also didn’t make the entire season about her weight. I’ve found a lot of romances where the woman is plus size, but her only personality trait is “fat” and the conflict revolves heavily around it. It’s nice just to see Penelope having problems not related to her size
What annoys me about the corset thing is that historically that was the bra of those times and yes any woman would wear them as well. No one was trying to suffocate in them like in the movies unless they really wanted to.
May I add: women had hairy legs up to the 20th century, where razor companies wanted to expand the market by telling women they need to shave their legs. I never see hairy woman legs in any kind of period drama or dystopian story and it's frustrating me, because stupid people think shaved legs are always the default.
Hair removal has been a thing since ancient Egypt actually, humans have removed body hair for a long time. The Romans had similar opinions on body hair as we do today.
@@EvaeAwake I am pretty sure there was a time, where people were not obsessed with hair removal on the legs. I mean there was also a time, where people did not bathe because of some bullshit believe.
@@EvaeAwake true, but kind of misleading in context. There have been points in history across various cultures where hair removal was popular, but for most of western history, including the regency period, it simply wasn't a thing. And the OP is correct that, when it did become popular in western cultures, it was largely due to advertising in an effort to manufacture demand for razors.
@@EvaeAwake Hair removal was 'a thing' for SOME cultures. In most of Western/English cultures, only whores in brothels shaved. That was part of the attraction. The characters being discussed here would have had unshaved legs and armpits.
Ok so I NEVER leave comments on youtube, but Kayla, damn girl! I couldn't have said it better myself. It's like you plucked numerous thoughts and feelings straight from my brain and articulated them so beautifully and succinctly that I just had to give you major applause for this video essay. Seeing Penelope on screen for S3 was everything to me and unraveled so much inner damage about my body and my worth. I knew it was gonna be a groundbreaking moment, but didn't realize just how much until I watched the season and also this video. So thank you, this was awesome! Keep it up!
Thank you so much, that's so sweet it's made me tear up ❤️ I knew I couldn't be the only one who has probably internalised a lot from period dramas and romances! Like you, it had such an effect on me to see Nicola as Penelope! I hope this opens the door for so many more plus sized actresses 😊
While you made some good points, you also missed, and misinterpreted, a lot of things. Mrs. Patmore in Downton was not bumbling nor stupid. She was a very competent woman who ended up buying a house and starting a business. The head house keeper, Mrs. Hughes, was not thin either. Minnie, in The Help, was not bumbling or stupid either. She was fierce in the face of domestic violence and racism. Louise Jefferson (Isabelle Sanford) from the sitcom was a plus sized woman as well - not bumbling nor silly. There are lots and lots of examples of larger sized women in good, solid roles.
Wow, I guess Zoe Strimpel has still not outgrown her middleschool bullying ways. Nicola Coughlin is gorgeous, it's really not hard to imagine Colin falling for her Penelope and finding her extremely attractive.
On the subject of corsets, I believe most women now are also just simply not used to having anything cinching them in, so it feels restricting. I’m Japanese, so of course although women and men throughout Japanese history all wore kimonos with obi and did everything in them, when I wear a formal kimono, it feels extremely restricting compared to my usual attire of tshirt and jeans, just like a formal suit would also, and I imagine a corset would as well.
People like to point out that plus size people aren’t historically accurate, but people getting fingered in the back of a carriage to a violin cover of a Pitbull song is also historically inaccurate, so what does it even matter?
"plus size people aren’t historically accurate"??? Why should they not be? Has nobody ever seen the paintings of Rubens? But even in other periods: Those who had the money to afford plenty of food could of course get plus size. Queen Victoria, anybody?
@rosyface It's amazing how people didn't understand what you wrote, isn't it? You make a sound point. It may be a fun watch, but Bridgerton is definitely period inspired rather than accurate.
NO! Hattie McDaniel is not BUMBLING servant but an in-charge authoritarian character who had her own agency. She is the audience stand-in showing outrage when Scarlett wants her hand "warmed up" by her sister's fiance's trouser pocket. She deserved her Academy Award and is not representative of a bumbling servant or slave. Give credit where credit is due.
There is a great line in Mulan (1998), where the matchmaker remarks "too skinny, not right for bearing sons." In an earlier scene a sash was tied around her waist similar to a corset. In every period drama, presumably the reason most men of the time married in order to have children. So representing them with birthing hips makes more sense to me.
It makes me laugh that so many people are saying Nicola Coughlan should be the romantic lead in a regency drama as she isn't thin. When people say that they are imposing late 20th century beauty standards on a different time period. Being slightly larger was desirable then as it showed that you had money and didn't have to work.
Imagine how queer kids felt for most of media existence not seeing people or relationships that represent us. It fuels societal ideas that we are abnormal and that our relationships are odd or not traditionally loving. While most people have moved away from that thinking, there is still is a dearth of movies and shows that tell our stories. Being fat and gay myself, and being attracted to masculine women, I have next to nothing to watch.
I myself have PLENTY to watch it’s got nothing to do with whether I’m fat:(I’m just about convinced that my legs and arms by now are about equally small):or gay or whatever or not
This is my first time watching your channel & I really like your content so far! Always happy to support a fellow historian. I wasn't going to comment, or at least wait until I watched the entire video, but that quote at about 24:00 - OMG, who is this person to say who is attractive, 1) in another time period, and 2) to another human being?! I'm sure you know the frustration of explaining to people that things we believe today were not always true, and even though our entertainment tries to recreate past eras, it's ALWAYS anachronistic in some respect or another. I was listening to your discourse on corsetry, and my immediate thought was, but we don't grow up using corsets as they did, and for the purposes they did - and this is extremely important. When your body is trained, basically from cradle to grave, to wear that device instead of a brassiere, your experience wearing it is going to be completely different than that of a 20th/21st century person whose experience with corsetry is sporadic & perhaps inaccurately recreated. Also, prior to the widespread use of photography & mass media that is a hallmark of our society, people didn't obsess about these external factors regarding themselves as much as we do today. The idea that many well-known "femme fatales" were perhaps more voluptuous than we would consider mainstream "sexy" today may blow some minds but it's true. They also may not have conformed to any current Western standard of physical beauty. It's said that we might consider Cleopatra plain today, because descriptions of her beauty gave much weight to her intellect: she charmed men with her wit, and that made her hot. However, I'm going to undo all the historical discourse in one thought: these historical period TV shows are meant to entertain the modern audience, so in that respect, *should* they be, 1) fair representations of the past, or 2) fantastic representations of the past that appeal to the modern taste? Of course, historians have our choice, but we may be in a minority; would not be the first time. Great content & very thought provoking!
Excellent video! US women have long been held to impossible physical standards and it’s refreshing to hear open conversations about the topic. Bravo! ❤
In Hidden Figures there is a great example of a plus size romance, very believable and nobody was outraged 😊. I also loved a sexy dance done by “Mama” played by Queen Latifah. Also a quirky German film “Sugarbaby” comes to my mind (although that is not at all historical film).
As someone who has bought corsets from a professional shop (Ties That Bind), I can tell you that those actresses were not govern the correct corset for their size/body type. Corsets aren't supposed to be super tight. They have ties akin to thin shoelaces, what happens when you pull them too hard? They snap. Corsets are supposed to improve posture and support your chest. They took the place of bras. When you have the right one, it is comfortable. Other RUclipsrs have covered how the Bridgerton ones were not proper for the actresses. I can just confirm that they aren't meant to feel like that. They're are women who go to conventions and Renaissance Faires and wander around in them all day without issue. The staff on those shows are more interested in the appearance for the camera than the well- being of the staff. The actresses deserve better. Edit: Notice how Hollywood is always "starting to improve" but never actually gets there?
Bridgeton is badly acted mills and boon and the way they treated the queen making her stupid. Also the tightening of a corsets was not done because who is stupid enough to do that’s for a small waist that no one would even know about under these dresses
I don't know if it's up your alley, but my problem with historical dramas is, everything looks brand new. The houses were just built. No paint is peeling, no wallpaper faded. Wood furniture isn't chipped, upholstery isn't worn or repaired. All the characters are perfectly turned out in pristine costumes. Their hair was just styled professionally. Their shoes are shined. The servants wear spotless uniforms. Children never have grass-stained knees, mended pinafores or patched breeches. It really takes me out of the fantasy that I'm there. Maybe most people want a perfect historical world. But just as everyone is not thin or beautiful, neither is everyone going to be as tidy as everyone else, their clothing isn't always new or in as good taste, their hair is going to need combed or washed, their mustaches trimmed. White gloves will be a little grimy after an evening of handshakes and clutching bannisters that should need a touch of varnish after years of being clutched. I'd like to see those everyday things as well as fabulous gowns and glittering ballrooms. Also, where are the pregnant women? They could not all have been in confinement for 9 months.
Bridgerton was in the early 19th century, were their plus-sized people in the 19th century? I seem to recall some paintings from the 19th century with plus sized people. Benjamin Franklin was plus sized, so was Henry Knox.
Thank you so much for this video and your comments!! Indeed, they are gaslighting us. I for one think Nicola Coughlan is absolutely beautiful! My lovely wife is also plus-sized and petite like Nicola. I want more representation like this! More plus-sized lead roles for women, please... I'm thin and my wife is plus-sized, and I love her exactly as she is. Why can't society understand that thin people can be fully attracted to plus-sized people? I also think we need to change how we see the word "fat" -- and to stop using it as a negative or a slur. In my opinion, every size can be beautiful ❤️
I was born in 1953. Believe me there were lots of plus sized women. Three of my aunts were plus sized. They were all married, two of them to slim men. There were people of all sizes and shapes.
One of my favorite portrayals of a woman is from Once Upon A Time. Belle was not traditionally thin. She had nice chubby cheeks and was a mid-sized woman. And I was delighted to see someone so beautiful portraying my favorite Disney Princess! I felt it was about time. As for the 1950's, et al, my family on both sides had plus-sized women all the way back and into the Great Depression. Very few were "skinny", Whenever, growing up, I lamented how heavy I was or looked, my mother would say "but you come from two lines of big women. You should be proud to be yourself." I would take heart every time, but somewhere deep I would still wish I had missed out on the family genes. It was in later years, once I'd gone into the military, that I became proud of myself for my accomplishments and actually stopped seeing myself as "heavy versus thin". In fact, I have a problem now based on this self-confidence. I am 100 pounds over the recommended body weight of my height group (5'2"). And I "forget" I'm unhealthily heavy. I've become so comfortable in my own skin, that when I see a full length mirror it surprises me that it's me in there, because I still picture myself with my military body. So, now I have to force myself to eat and exercise in a healthy manner, as I have serious health problems due to the weight. The rest of my family got those problems quicker, because I had gotten healthier in the military. But, at my now advanced age, I let myself slide. I don't think of plus sized or mid sized or slim sized(?) as disgusting or ugly or whatever. I look, usually, for the personality just because that's the way I was raised. However, in a character I appreciate when the people creating the fantasy remember to give the non traditional-slim people a chance to shine in the lead. People who think an actress or actor who cannot be the main character because of their looks? It's not looks, it's the ay thy can act the part, silly. how they can capture the audience. Thank you for this episode. I really appreciated it. By the way, you may find this extremely amusing (like I do now) or offensive (like I did then). When I was in the military, I was a DD sized breast. Thus, my uniforms didn't look slimming in the least, let's say. I had a Chief (we were both enlisted but she was in charge of my unit,) whom told me to my face "you're going to go in the fat program with me and we can work out together." She sounded so pleased. I was incensed and practically growled at her, "what do you mean fat program? My Body Weight Index is 27. To qualify for fat program, it has to be 30 or above." She did a double-take, doubted me, but went and checked my records for my fitness stats. And she was stunned. I was 27 BMI. It was the breasts that made me look heavier due to the way my clothes fit. And she wasn't the only one in charge of me that thought so. Due to back issues, I had a breast reduction (down to C), and now my body shape is shown by my clothes. Now, I would certainly be in the program the military ran for getting healthier (exercise, portion control, and other things). Nowadays I find it humorous I had this 'argument' with my Chief. I probably would feel different if I had been proven wrong. But to see her almost arrogance self-assurance drop away after she assumed something about me, instead of checking, is amusing.
Would you consider Jennifer Ehle from the 1995 BBC Pride and Prejudice to be mid- sized? I could absolutely be wrong, but that had been my impression, and she's obviously our heroine, she's our Lizzy!
I’m feeling like no one ever read the original book before it was redone as the Bridgerton series. Julia Quinn’s original story showcases Penelope as a heavy more voluptuous woman in ugly dresses. This makes the casting of Nicola an amazing choice since she is a very talented actress and representative of the source material. Could the producers selected someone thinner sure they could have. So in that way maybe they are trying to be more inclusive in their representation of romantic relationships. The unfortunate thing is now all the old Kindle versions of the book have been completely redone for the Bridgerton story line making it hard to look back on the original story. Also compared with some of the other casting this choice feels relatively safe and should be credited to Julia’s writing.
I grew up in L.A. in the 80's (Gen X 1968 baby here). And being just 10lb "overweight" from my average healthy weight, I was considered "fat" - and I'm tall, I was 5'8" when I was 13 and topped out at 6' by 18. So ten extra pounds on a 6' average frame is not that much, but enough that I was considered less than optimal in many guys' eyes. So many of my peers in middle school and high school had friends or family that worked in "The Biz" (TV & movies) where you had to be 10 lbs UNDERWEIGHT to be considered acceptable body wise. It's insidious. I was a healthy weight range and still thought of myself as fat, and men also judged me by unrealistic standards, since I lived in The Valley and the porn industry was based out of there and a lot of my competition for dating in the geographic region were girls who worked in porn and had the prefect little stick bodies with the big boob jobs.
I agree with you but I would add that not only do we blame ourselves for "Mr. Darcy" not coming along, we also blame others when they don't meet those standards. It's this impossible goal that we set. The truth of the matter is, people are more attracted to confidence, humor, happiness, etc. We owe it to ourselves to be happy and healthy, not fit into some physical mold.
Actually I’m quite sure they did. Perhaps they weren’t as severe and the gowns didn’t cling to them like other eras, but they were still worn. The costumes in Bridgerton are definitely not accurate but they sure are fun.
They wore what is called a corded corsets. Corded corsets are soft and not hard boned. They cannot be pulled to change your shape. They were they to basically there to support the bust line. Corded corset were a change from stays.
@@erinelizabethmsw5137 They wore what is called a corded corsets. Corded corsets are soft and not hard boned. They cannot be pulled to change your shape. They were they to basically there to support the bust line. Corded corset were a change from stays.
@@niave113 In Regency stays morphed into the corded corsets. A soft, non figure changing corset. They most supported the bust line and provided 'modesty' under the light muslin dresses popular at the time.
It`s interesting to me, as I am part of the Bridgerton fandom, how much vitriol Colin and Penelope got from the very first season, citing `no chemistry` and `no spark` between them. I am of the opinion that, due to the 8 episode format Bridgerton sports, basically all romances within the show, stay somewhat unexplored. However, with Colin and Penelope, people are still adamant about there being no love between them, simply because their tension is not based on fighting or constant back and forth. That`s so weird to me as someone who also grew up reading and watching period dramas. I even have a degree in British Literature. In reality, with their season, I`ve instead come to the realization of how much friends to lovers is a much more realistic and affable trope, rather than rivals to lovers or arranged marriage. I was never before a huge fan, mind you. It`s also sad to me that, when the season dropped, there were so many tweets about `waiting until Season 4 because that`s when we`ll get attractive leads again`. That is so weird to me. I loved Season 3 for many reasons and I have some criticisms, but this was such a refreshing step to take and hopefully we get to see plus size leads not be treated in accordance with their weight, but rather as interesting characters on their own.
@noorbohamad5796 In some cases yes, as the conflict between the characters doesn’t happen in accordance with their personalities but rather outside sources. Which is then mistaken for lack of tension. It’s just a different type of romance that’s, when done right, better than majority enemies to lovers stories, in my opinion.
I love the show "Drop Dead Diva", the lead character of which is just gorgeous. It doesn't leave any doubt that she is hot and can be loved. I also find Nicola Coughlan very attractive and disagree with journalist Zoe . I've seen many outright beautiful plus-size women in my life, never thought that only a slim woman can be a beauty.
It makes me so incredibly sad to realise how deeply I internalised the belief that I could not be beautiful if I wasn’t thin. Full stop. I don’t know when it started, and it wasn’t even my parents telling me to lose weight. It was just the effect of growing up in Southern California and being surrounded by media.
To me as a older heterosexual women who was always thin, I think she is hot, my god she voluptuous. A real women. I always felt scrawny compared to women with some weight to them.
Applause for this whole video! Can we mention the 'thin actress has to gain weight so she's "not attractive" but she's actually still normal size' bit of the 90's? Muriel's Wedding, Bridget Jones' Diary, America's Sweethearts (though that was a fat suit)...apparently we were supposed to think that they were unattractive and they were normal sized. Made anyone who wasn't tiny wee feel like a flippin' elephant.
I went through exactly what you described in my teenage years. I've learnt about Kibbe body types in recently and it cured my self image. But that's not what I came to say. These people look through the lense of modern eye and judge the past. It used to be: Short and skinny = malnourished and poor. Tall and fuller = healthy, well off and beautiful. So when we read about how Jane Bennett is the most beautiful girl she was not at all size 0. When we read about tiny Jane Eyre (who would be praised today for keeping her frame so healthy) was an example of an unattractive, malnourished, traumatised woman that was internally strong and found love against the odds. I've been watching the original Star Trek recently (1960's) and I am amazed by inclusion of different body types. Much more varied than today. Today it's: we've got conventionally slim and attractive cast and maybe one fatty for inclusion. As much as I can't recall fat women in ST there were all body types (short, fuller figure, muscular, tall, slender, etc.) and they were all made to look attractive. Those Kibbe types I mentioned, they were all included. And that system is based on bone structure, muscle, flesh and proportion. In this system you find out every type is beautiful and has its advantages and disadvantages. What's more there's only so much you can do, but you can't starve yourself into different type, you can be a slim, fat or fitter version of a type, but your bone structure doesn't change, you can't easily shrink or grow, can't change the size of your head, etc.
Is Bridgerton really a period drama? Perhaps a re-imagined, alternate universe sort of way. It's like a portrayal of a period with the lens and sensibilities of this period rather than that one.
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I married a man who was thinner when we met. I am a plus-size. He thought I was beautiful, smart, and caring. We were married for 36 years before he died of brain cancer. I miss his telling me that I looked pretty, that he loved me, and the way he liked to retell stories about our twin daughters. He also stayed home while I went out to work. He was a kind and gentle man who saw my worth. I would like to see how many wonderful and loving women have found their own loving men.
Awe thanks for sharing your love story ❤ I'm so sorry for your loss!
@regencyrumours Thank you so much.
I have a family friend with a similar love story. Married a thinner man who became a homemaker while she worked full time at a high-powered corporate job.
My husband has always been thinner than I am. We are close in height. He’s always loved me very well. I actually think it is extremely common when I look around me. I also see fat men with thin women.
My husband weighs less than I do.
We’re both what I think most folks would consider big people (he’s 6’3 and broad-chested, and I’m 6’ and with broad shoulders for a woman and a big chest and I’m just curvy no matter how thin or big I am) but we wear it differently.
He’s my rock. I don’t know what I did to get so lucky to deserve him.
Through our marriage I’ve had a lot of health problems, just seemingly one thing after another. I’m currently recovering from another major surgery and he’s having to help me with the most basic things while working too, _and_ helping our teenager with school.
When I feel like I don’t deserve this or that I’m a burden, he reassures me that I’m not. That I’m loved. That he’s the one that would be lost without me.
We’ve been through a lot, but we’ve done it together. We haven’t ever had a huge blowup fight, we always come to a consensus or agreement. We just work together well, along with loving each other so much.
Looking back, I think we got married too young (I was 23, he was 26). It would have been so easy for us to have grown up more and to have grown apart. But we got lucky and we grew together.
Which feels miraculous to me since both my parents were married multiple times and divorced each other when I was a toddler. Plus, all my grandparents were divorced and remarried too, and some of my great-grandparents.
When I was a kid divorce felt inevitable.
But we’re coming up on 20 years, and unless he dumps me because my medical costs are getting too high (lol), I think we’ll make it farther just fine.
If you count the time we were dating, then we’ve been together more than half my life, and I wouldn’t trade a single second of it.
Even when I’m not sick, I don’t know what I’d do without him. I’d be completely lost, and I think he’d be lost without me too.
We just work together along with being in love and that feels special.
As a midsized person who grew up doing musical theater, I was told constantly that I either needed to lose 40 pounds so that I could play the lead OR I needed to gain 40 pounds so that I could play the "fat" best friend. Honestly, I just wish I saw everyday people on screen where their weight isn't even brought up. We should have ALL sizes. And being "fat" or "ugly" doesn't evenly remotely have to be a part of the plot. They can just BE.
The very first popular sex goddess in movies, Theda Bara (a stage name), was both chubby and not even pretty, but her popularity was largely a result of how much skin she was ready to show in a new medium (film) whose conventions had not yet been established. However, once moviegoing lost its novelty factor and close-ups became common, as far as leading roles were concernted, svelte actresses and muscular actors quicky became and have remained the norm for over a century. Why? Because people go to the movies so they can enjoy a few hours of fantasy where they identify with a beautiful actress or handsome actor becoming romantically and sexually involved with a handsome male or beautiful female, and that usually translates into young and phsyically fit. Few want to see "everyday" people on the screen as leads. You can protest this, but you might as well protest that the sky is blue. Humans are wired to be turned on by youth and fitness. Even if some progressive movie studio were to bankroll a romantic comedy featuring "everyday" people who are about 20 to 40 pounds overweight, the typically fat American movie audience would avoid it, especially when competing movie studios will continue to present people who fit conventional norms of beauty.
@@Viracocha88 Personally, I think this is changing. It may be changing slowly, but it is changing. More and more people want to see every day people. And I don't think it's the same as protesting a blue sky. Things are already changing. We're already seeing more representation than every before. It's complacency like this that will keep us where we are. So keep fighting for the change you want to see!
@@kateashton8904 Nope, it's not changing now, nor will it change in the next 150 years. Currently the most popular actresses today under 40, such as Scarlett Johanson and Emma Stone, are slim and trim, as are actresses of an earlier generation, such as Sandra Bullock and Angelina Jolie. Ditto, Channing Tatum, Chris Evans, etc. In fact, leading men today are now expected to have totally ripped bodies, far exceeding what was expected of matinee idols of yore such as Clark Gable and even Sean Connery, who was a competitive bodybuilder starting out. Women complain that men are shallow, but the reality is that few females of any age today daydream about men who look like Jack Black or Seth Rogen. In a visual medium like movies and television, outer beauty will always trump inner beauty to get people to buy tickets or purchase a streaming service.
But I do concede there is a grain of truth in what you say. General audiences across the west are fatter than ever, yet the celebrities they idolize are more extremely, even excessively, fit than ever. Personally, I'd like to see more people go back to the healthier eating habits of their grandparents and for stars to chill a bit about their bodies.
I go to an acting school and happen to be basically the only mildly curvy girl in my year. Drives me insane sometimes. The implicit bias and prejudice that goes along with it from my peers. And I've been cast so many times in the broad comedic side character roles, to the degree I'm emailing the head of school when we go back to tell him to give me at least one proper dramatic role. I'm sick of it.
But it was a million times worse at my last acting school. The absolute obsession with appearance was terrible. Obsessing over things like neck lines and wearing thongs because God forbid you could see the outline of their underwear with their tights... At acting school where you spend all day with peers doing weird stuff. Or glorifying how they looked when they had eating disorders. It was disgusting.
@@TheTardisDreamer obesity is a symptom of an eating disorder.
Curvy, voluptuous figures were considered a sign of health and beauty in the Regency period. You can see it in the paintings and statuary of the time.
I am surprised that as a historian she didn’t address this in the video… how were figures actually viewed at the time? I think it’s quite complex, and I would have liked to hear it explored in comparison to how it’s treated in the media
Indeed. Infact, Julia Quinn writing Penelope's character as undesirable because of her physicality is more a result of the fact that the books were written in the early 2000s (very bad time to be a plus size teenager btw).
The genteel class at the time valued more status, money and connection (if affection was not involved) and these should have been the reasons for Penelope's lack of suitors and not her body, which was, at the time, probably regarded as more desirable (big hips for child bearing) than the physicality of the actresses portraying Daphne or Kate or Francesca...
Absolutely!
Right, it was a hard time and if you were well padded, that meant that you/your family was successful enough to have plenty of food and able to sustain workers who did work for you and not having to do backbreaking labor to use up those calories. Also a well fed woman with seemingly generous hips was viewed as more healthy and likely to be able to produce healthy children and at the time it was all about making heirs that would survive to adulthood. In those times many children just didn't make it, and many women didn't make it through labor/delivery. It was a distinction from the working class who struggled to provide for themselves more often than not and used up any calories they managed with hard work, making them slim. Heaven forbid a high class women resemble a commoner.
They wouldn't have liked Keira K at all: toothpick thin, without the much-needed curves or the "milk and rose" complexion...
You will see a size 2 or a size 22 in film, but very rarely a size 12.
*sigh*
Nicola Coughlan is brilliant in her lead role, and I think it says a lot about Shonda to have cast her for her amazing talent. I have a serious girl crush on her, she is the whole package. I am glad that she consented to being undressed and in a very intimate scene with Luke/Colin, that they didn't just disguise her nudity in something sheer or under covers. That would have been really disappointing. The love story they tell is so beautiful.
Yes, totally agree she is the whole package!
@@regencyrumours 12:00 Michaela Sterling in Bridgerton S4 is still a stereotype: a Magical Negro as well as a Sapphire. I'm not looking forward to this storyline. Sometimes changes are unnecessary. Francesca didn't need to be Queer representation as she was already representing Autism
@@suzygirl1843I've never seen that show but there's a lot of queer autistic people, probably even more % than among neurotypicals. why does white cishet have to be the norm, let's have all the diversity. I could jokingly say "he's white AND straight AND neurotypical? that's too much boring represantation in one person" 😂
@@suzygirl1843 My gut instinct is to say, 'Of course autistic people are NEVER queer! /s' but I feel like I might be missing something about your statement. It's been a little bit since I've seen season 3, but I don't remember enough of Michaela even showing up to *be* a stereotype. Has she been elaborated on in the promotional material, or something? I'd really like to understand what you're saying.
I love Nicola too!! Agree 100% that her performance and the love story was ON POINT! And so glad how Shonda re-wrote the story to not make her lose weight (unlike the book)
I love watching modern retellings of times of the 40s and 50s, cause my grandma lived through those times and she NEVER hesitates to say what they’ve gotten wrong, from hair to fits to overall ways of being. Our modern film storytelling lens DOES skew our perception of the past so much!
@@TheCaitlynStark My grandfather loved reading and when I visited I got to pick books from his collection to read. Many of them were inappropriate for my age and were funny satirical works from the fifties. The women were all voluptuous with round bottoms and breasts - so that’s what he liked and also men of his time apparently liked curvy women too.
I feel that way with films set in the 1980s, which was my childhood. I can tell the difference between a movie made to LOOK like the 80s and one made to FEEL like it's the 80s. The glossier the movie is, the less chance the people either lived through the 80s or Hollywood wanted to cater how young people think it was. The 80s were gritty as heck, AIDS was a real fear for half of it, and Reagan loomed large over how we perceived the world and the country.
The films of the times also skew our idea of it. Don't forget, while there was some censorship from 1907 on in US, it was under heavy media censorship with the Hayes Code from 1930s through 1960s. It's part of the nostalgia and why it's a nostalgia for a fake time and place, the world of 1950s media never existed. You'd get a better reflection of reality in films in 1920s or 1970s. For in between itd be better to talk to people or read memoirs.
@@bethdibartolomeo2042 I dunno, ALOT of 80s flicks are not gritty at all. Like the sort of teen preppy moment films, brat pack, etc. But yea you can tell the fashion because wannabe 80s fashion is alot more extreme and kinda better actually. It's like how real flappers wor sacklike dresses to below their knee with maybe some beads on the hem, but the flapper costumes are like made of fringe and super short. They take the flavor and they go too far.
@@bethdibartolomeo2042 The 80's was bright and colorful with fantastic movies and great music. The wall fell, The Cold War ended and life was looking grand. Most people gave no thought to AIDS and Reagan was beloved.
Slim=youthful, busty = matronly.
We were always given matronly roles in school plays…
I'm at acting school... And yep. I've played so many mothers and broad comedic side characters.
Try being 5’10” as well. I was cast as middle aged spinsters 🙄
As a person who has seriously studied history and the history of art in particular, I have seen hundreds of ladies in old portraits who would now be called plus-size - ladies depicted in family portraits together with their handsome husbands and numerous children who look like both mom and dad. For many centuries, being a plump lady with a high bust, steep hips, round arms was the only way to be considered a beauty worthy of the attention of a real aristocrat, because only girls from rich noble families could eat enough to have a rounded figure. Look at old paintings - recognized aristocratic beauties of the 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th centuries have double chins and voluminous shoulders in portraits!
As part of this conversation plus size men are usually the funny guy and rarely the dashing any charming leading man. Would love to see a thick boy as Prince Charming without it being played for laughs.
😂😂😂.
Or villains, sadly.
Well, can Shrek be considered a really good guy with true prince charming nature?
For mature ladies, he is definitely the best.
Well, in drama Vampire Prosecutor we have roundish faced guy as typical charming superhuman, hero and very subtle romantic interest, which is not typical for vampires.
Still, he is quite slim...
In romance otome girls c14 dating one of possible romantic route is with overweight gamer, who is sensitive, romantic and caring person.
In Indian series, princes in their childhood are played by quite well-fed children.(Siya Ke Ram, younger version of Ram)
After that, of course, he gets in shape...
We definitely need more cool thicc guys played seriously.
Shrek? Sorry, and I know there are a lot of laughs, but he is the Prince Charming of the tale and does a quite respectable job of being so. And while there are some issues with Robin Hood with Kevin Costner, I loved Little John's family dynamic.
I agree that traditional type-casting has the fat guy as the clown friend. But in real life fat guys who are genuinely funny can be very sexy. It's a combination I notice. 😀
Jack Black…
My grandmother had insisted that no man would love me unless I was thin. Yet my grandfather preferred that she not be thin. How ironic. I could never get it though my head that I was fine just the way I am. I'm now 71. I believe I am getting there.
😂❤😊
We have to love and care for the bodies that we are in because it’s the only body that we get. That rarely has anything to do with losing or gaining weight.
I just always think period dramas miss the mark when they don't have more plus sized women considering these women are the subjects of lots of art for the time.
Well, at least the dramas that focus on the aristocracy and upper class. It would have been rare to see heavier figures on farms or in factories.
@oliviastratton2169 very true since the larger were usually those who could afford more did and weren't moving about often.
That's bec. period dramas often depict values and ideals contemporary to the time period, they were produced. Keira Knightley is an early 2000s ideal of w. femininity, not a 18th cent. one.
@@oliviastratton2169I think this is a false assumption though, a lot of larger framed women move a lot. I have always worked physically hard in my jobs and was always overweight, you can consume more calories than you work off regardless how much you work or have a slower metabolism. Lower class women most likely still had access to simpler carbs, dairy, butter,cream etc
@@pteifert It's not about physical movement alone. Food was a lot harder to come by.
I’m also so impressed by what Nicola Caughlan is doing with fashion. But conversations there also are more convoluted and focused on something being “flattering” as opposed to what the statement the fashion itself is making. It’s almost like we don’t have a language for it.
Yes, I predominately hear the word "flattering" when people are referring to others who are not thin rather than just speaking like they normally would about fashion!
Nicola being hot and fierce and hilarious on the press tour is literally why i started watching the show at all last week 😅 calling her “not hot” is so genuinely misguided
Seriously, she is gorgeous!
As a person who has seriously studied history and the history of art in particular, I have seen hundreds of ladies in old portraits who would now be called plus-size - ladies depicted in family portraits together with their handsome husbands and numerous children who look like both mom and dad. For many centuries, being a plump lady with a high bust, steep hips, round arms was the only way to be considered a beauty worthy of the attention of a real aristocrat, because only girls from rich noble families could eat enough to have a rounded figure. Look at old paintings - recognized aristocratic beauties of the 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th centuries have double chins and voluminous shoulders in portraits!
Growing up in the late 80s/ early 90s, I watched the BBC tv version of Pride and Prejudice. It starred Jennifer Ehle, who plays Elizabeth, isn't waiflike.
With corsets and stays in modern-day productions, I think it's important to bear in mind that actors aren't given enough time to wear in their clothes (just as you would with shoes). And wardrobe departments haven't always been given the budget to clothe the cast and make undergarments that work for the person who's wearing them ❤
That's my favorite adaptation of the book. The empire waist doesn't require a corset.
That is the best adaptation! Also, they wore short stays and petticoats in those dresses, which are much more like our modern bras and a slip. I wondered for years how Jennifer Ehle got her boobs to look like that in that movie. It was a serious topic of discussion between my friends and me: how do we get that look? I bought a balconette bra, years later, and when I looked in the mirror, I went, "THAT'S how she did it!" In general, the empire waisted gown is very flattering to more curvy ladies - and much less flattering to those who are less well endowed. That, in and of itself, might say something about the beauty standards of the time period. The fashions were geared more toward the Jennifer Ehles than the Kiera Knightleys of the world. Empire waists look great on curvy women. They look less than great on skinny women.
I once had the pleasure of seeing a lot of curvy women dressed in empire waisted gowns; I attended a Jane Austen festival in which many of the attendees wore Regency style dresses of their own creation. Not only did I admire the talent and artistry, but I got to see what a custom-tailored regency gown looks like on your average American woman. We all know what our figures look like. Honestly, the ladies and the gowns were gorgeous! A lot of thin starlets just look pregnant in Regency gowns. But more voluptuous women wearing their own, custom-tailored works of art? Breathtaking. That's more akin to the time. People often wore clothes that they made, mended, tailored, or altered on their own - or that were made by a skilled modiste. Either way, some of those gowns were works of art. I left with an unexpected appreciation for fashion. I never really cared about fashion before, but it's different when you see people proudly wearing their own work. And that waistline? Super flattering - and comfortable! It lifts and supports the bust while flaring at the hips to allow for ease of movement. I'm wearing an empire waisted sun dress right now. When I walked into breakfast, the host literally did a double take and then practically fell all over himself telling me how much he liked my dress. It is a contemporary print and cut, but the general shape is the same. My point is that I think film crews could do at least as good a job as a book nerd with a sewing machine - or just a regular lady with a balconette bra and a flattering cut. It's a fairly easy style to adapt. I think we can, at least, hold wardrobe departments to that standard.
I should have scrolled down before I made my comment! It was all about Jennifer Ehle being a good exception to this.
@@marianneshepherd6286 yes a lot of BBC shows people of all different sizes. They don’t look done up or glamorized. They look “normal” and relatable.
Neither is Sussanah Harker who played her sister Jane and was pregnant the whole filming!!
Nicola Coughlan is an absolute legend, it's so wonderful as an Irish person to see her raising awareness and money for the people of 🍉!
She has handled this unfair the invasive press focusing on her body so well and has just flourished. She looks so good and plays all sides of Penelope so well!
Such a great video with such good research and such a good structure.
Kudos
I am very thin naturally, but I think Nicola Coughlan is absolutely gorgeous.
I love how so many people suggest that attraction can only be physical, and that fat people can never be physically attractive. Like you said, when the male character is fat, there is often no question about whether the female character will find him attractive. But fat female characters can't just *be attractive* to someone. For any reason, really.
And even if a character isn't initially physically attracted to someone initially, plenty of people only become physically attracted to others once they have developed close relationships with them in other ways. Demisexuality is a thing!
I definitely think shows like Bridgerton season 3 can show how love isn't always as straight forward as a rom com. My husband and I were longtime friends first with no thought of each other for a while, attraction can evolve and grow and isn't just about the physical! ❤
Oh my gosh, the woman who played Clytemnestra in my university production of Agamemnon weighed about 200lbs and her welcoming home of her husband made me blush. I've always been midsized since I hit puberty, and it had not occurred to me that ... Frankly, anyone playing the part the way she did would have made me blush, but she was extraordinary and sexy and whoof ... I hope she's had a long and prosperous career.
@@flibbertygibbette that is because women married for security. Wealth was a requirement and separated the common man from royalty. Whereas men married to secure the bloodline.
I never saw a fat Young Woman at the show...she has curves ...are Y all crazy???
Demisexual is under exposed in art. Thank you for mentioning.
Shrimpel didn’t write that article as anything other than a personal attack due to Nicola’s calls for a ceasefire and raising money for Palestinian children.
Exactly. It's like Nicola's stance for Palestinians gave her permission to completely rip into beautiful Nicola. So sickening. The "journalist" is a sad, ignorant, prejudiced anti-human snob.
Thank you for speaking the straight facts. It's devastating how badly yon bush is getting beaten around, how afraid people are to talk about Palestine. And if we don't get loud and persistent, get brave, resolute, pierce through all the deflection and censoring; this hell isn't going to stop.
Right, loser behaviour to body shame and be horrible to a lovely lady like Nicola
@@espeon871shrimpel hadn’t a leg to stand on when determine who is hot - she is not.
I didn't know that! Thank you.
I am plus size and had several boyfriends explicitly wanting me as I am. They were thin and very handsome, one of them could have even worked as a model. Sometimes I thought he was too beautiful for me. 😂 Our relationship lasted 4 years.
The lesser thin men who I was interested in never were interested in me. So it was vice versa to what movies and shows want us to believe. Men are not that superficial. They want more than good looks.
You've been very lucky. Every one of my relationships have been with men who didn't think I was pretty and would tell me that they loved me anyway, in spite of my looks, like they were doing me some great favor. Hard to be in a relationship when you don't feel you measure up. Maybe that's why I prefer being single.
I think there's more to it than that. Men can be superficial and care about looks, but also have their own preferences. Not all men are into the waif aesthetic, and I think that's something that society should recognise and celebrate instead of making all non-waiflike women feel horrible about themselves!
Same here.
I'm black and very curvy and I attract great looking guys. My boyfriend is over 6ft , six pack abs and very good looking.
He loves plus size women 😍
I have always been on what is considered as plus sized. The smallest I've ever been was a size 10 for a short period of time. Most of the time I was a size 18 or larger. I once was trying to lose weight (I was about a 16 at the time) and my BF didn't want me to lose. He didn't like skinny women. I have found LOTS of men like voluptuous women. Like Nicola implied, you don't normally get perfect boobs being skinny.
I would like to highlight that, in the books the Bridgerton series is based on, Penelope loses weight before she and Colin get together. Shonda Rimes choice to have Penelope change her hair and clothing but not her size is the right one and the critics can go watch the many other period dramas featuring thin leads if this offends them.
I thought she looked slimmer in season 3 compared to the previous two, but it could have been the more flattering costuming I suppose.
At least, if she did lose weight, it wasn't because the show pressured her to do it.
Also having a 40 year old woman playing a 20 year old doesn't help matters either but I guess old women need to feel seen now.
The whole corset thing is much more complicated. For one thing, the actresses who star in these period pieces are likely angling for an award, more critical acclaim, access to better roles, etc. The Vanity Fair/ Vogue/ Harper’s Bazaar interview in which they detail allllllll the exhausting and awkward elements of getting into character is by now a rather tired convention used to signal ‘I aM a sErIOUs ACTRESS aNd A cOnTenDer’. (much as actors talk about losing weight, putting on muscles, using a prosthetic nose etc)
I don’t doubt that wearing a corset (especially one that’s ill-fitted and not styled correctly by someone with more than a passing sense of historical women’s undergarments) feels very strange and ‘uncomfortable’ to modern actresses. Quite often actresses are shoved into one without any garment underneath! Women of the past would find this very uncomfortable too (which is why they avoided it). Corsets/ stays of the past also avoided painful restriction by…. not using corsets to significantly reduce the wearer’s waist. There were extremists then (unfortunately the images we have of corset-wearers are of these extremists), and there are many extremists now.
I actually think it’s much more of a sexist standard to expect the naked female body to just arrange itself into the perfect fashionable figure - it’s the root cause of most cosmetic plastic surgery these days. Women of the past had fluctuating figures, but they didn’t chastise themselves for gaining some girth here or there. They could easily adjust their undergarments. It was understood that female bodies change shape often dramatically (pregnancies).
The voices I’d be listening to mostly are historical costuming experts and actual historical accounts written by everyday women who used corsets over their lifespans.
Bernadette Banner 💯
Yes!
For anyone curious, please check out Bernadette's channel and other historical costume experts for more information on corsets. They are not supposed to be restrictive and harmful in the way dramatised by movies.
I remember Jeri Ryan in an interview talking about passing out on set and an entire outfit being retired because she literally couldn't breathe in it. It really annoys me when people just say 'oh the actresses have no idea, they are bashing corsets with no knowledge'.
Of course they are, it's not their job and they are being kinda tortured by the people who should know better.
@@carly7522the point is they are being put in the wrong corsets or being made to wear them too tightly. I've done 2 shows in corsets. The first I wore a corset for hours going up amd down stairs singing and telling ghost stories at an event in Salem. It was every weekend for several weeks and I loved how that corset, which was an historical replica, supported my back. It was fantastic.
Later I did a 6 week run of Caberet as a Kit Kat dancer. We started wearing our corsets that were not super expensive about a month before opening. We wore them over tshirts at rehearsals to break them in. The first week they were stiff. By the time we opened we could all high kick, bend, twist, etc. We loved them. They were a lot of fun to wear. Very secure and supportive.
Stop blaming men. Women have always been the harshest judges of other women
That is a very good commentary. I would add another aspect to the body representation (or lack thereof) in period drama, or in the media in general, and that is the body shape.
Nicola Coughlan is not only plumper than the previous leads - she is way more voluptuous. I think her body is the one that is one of the least visible ones in the media: short and small but busty and soft all-over at the same time.
We have many famous women who are very curvy and busty, but also tall and strong-framed (e.g. Sophia Loren, Sophia Vergara, Kim Bassinger, Christina Hendricks), but not so many ones that are short and compact, and for that her softness being the dominant feature. Many smaller busty celebrities are still 'in proportion' and with still have some sharp features like their noses or shoulders (e.g. Scarlett Johanson, Brigitte Bardot). The majority of small women in the media is a typical petite, though, with no bigger busts or bums.
And Nicola is not that. She is small AND lush. Her bust when corseted literally reaches her collarbone. Her shoulders are narrow and soft, her arms are soft, her face is soft. All of her bone structure is hidden by her flesh. Even her fingers are delicate and soft and fleshy at the same time. And we have our eyes trained so much on "boney" and frame-dominant body shapes that we automatically see her as plus-size, when she is objectively not.
I have been having a girl crush on her since S3 (I never watched Bridgerton before that) and I think she is absolutely gorgeous. I have been using her as style and makeup inspiration since then (I have similar features to her, just on average human level). I really do hope we will see more of her and women like her, and women with other under-represented body types, in the media in the future.
I got her shade of Bridgerton lipstick when the show came out, so I get you! She's so gorgeous!
Well said ! Nicola is a voluptuous woman and a fantastic actress!
She’s beautiful and smart! Shame on critics!
Let’s go Nic!!!! You’re gorgeous ❤
@@Emma95-g9f All that - and she is also kind. She has already raised millions on good causes like aid for Palestinian children or support for LGBT+ folks.
@@berlineczka indeed!!! She’s exceptional! 🥰
small, lush, small shoulders, delicate fingers, pale and soft face... in regency and victorian era, she would be considered a Venus! She is wonderfull, by the way. I'm as straight as an arrow, but her cheeks made me desire to kiss and touch and cuddle them =D
I find the last part very interesting. About the media only depicting thin women as the love interest in period dramas, so it skewed our vision of how a person deemed attractive would look back then. I save a lot of old artwork from around the world, from the Mesopotamian era, from the 1950s, from the Ife era in Nigeria, etc., in a Pinterest board. So it means, I save some European paintings from the 19th century and in those paintings. People with Pen/Nicola’s physique are quite common. So to me, it wasn’t a shocker to see her as the love interest. She looked like she belonged in a renaissance painting in all of her shots.
I liked that the show didn’t make her lack of suitors about her size, but more about her lack of confidence. In previous seasons, she always wore dresses that were ill fitted, I always took it as her mom not really knowing how to dress her, such as making her wear yellow, even though it doesn’t really suit her. (I’m sure yellow looks great on Nicola, I mean, it just doesn’t fit Penelope’s character). But this season, she finally wears clothes that fit her figure, no longer hiding herself and her actual figure, taking space and like this attracting potential suitors.
Yes, I loved this season showing her confidence evolving!!
I don’t even watch bridgerton, I’ve just seen the discourse surrounding it, but Nicola Coughlan is HOT.
My Big Fat Greek Wedding was my favorite movie as a teen because the leading woman wasnt slim.
That's such a great example of a great "transformation" like Penelope's without someone needing to lose a bunch of weight or be a completely different person
Molly Brown in Titanic was exactly who I thought of when you said plus sized Boss Babe!
90s and 00s rom-coms wrought HELL on my self-esteem
Ooooof, me too
Such a pity you were exposed to the Kiera Knightly version of Pride and Prejudice first, rather than the BBC 1995 version. Jennifer Ehle version. Jennifer is probably considered slim (at least more recently) but she is not depicted that way in the BBC version. She is bustier and seems more full bodied.
It is also her wit that is emphasised.
Honestly, I think Elizabeth was supposed to be kind of skinny and flat-chested in the book. Jennifer Ehle might be busty, but she isn’t any larger than a US size 6, not even “mid-size”.
@@Cybele1986yes, but at least she had a roundness to her face and body instead of that stark waifly and cheekbone look
@@Cybele1986I have no idea where you got that notion. She’s a little too fond of walking but nothing is said of her size. Perhaps you saw the film before you read the book?
She was my sexual awakening and the reason I love curvy ladies.
We also have to remember that these famous people are being told to wear corsets the modern way... tightlacing, thinning, etc, all important to the stage. I still think corsets are not these things (as somebody who wears them) because I don't experience that and I know that their experience with is going to be drastically different due to the way their industry treats them
The 1995 Pride and Prejudice has good examples of “plus or mid” size female characters. Not perfect but at least not unhealthy thin
Yes! I find it annoying when people consider the Keira Knightley version as the prime example.
I also thought Emma Thompson and Kate Winslet in Sense and Sensibility looked exactly like the early 19th century portraits of young women from Art History class.
Emma Thompson in deed really had the preferred features of the time the story plays in. Kira Knightley has not, she would have been too thin xD
Miss Bingley's actress was taller than both the male leads, requiring creative shooting to make her look "right."
Thin meant sickly in the Regency period
As a '90s kid, it was a real culture shock to read Pride and Prejudice because the narrator talked about the thinner characters like they were less attractive. It was fascinating to learn about a world where (when) the beauty ideal favored larger bodies. And it was a shock once again to watch the movie with Kiera Knightly, which cast remarkably thin women as the film's "beauties" like Jane. It's been a pet peeve for me ever since. I love all the costumes and settings of period pieces, but it really takes me out of the moment when almost all the actors fit beauty standards that didn't exist at the time. When it happens across the entire genre, it sends this message to viewers that our ideas of thinness being beautiful are timeless when they're really not.
I really didn't like all the body talk around Bridgerton. Especially when Netflix put out BTS videos of Nicola at dress fittings talking about her "weight loss journey" and how difficult her dress fittings were for the costumers. I thought it was totally inappropriate. I wish her body and size weren't a topic of conversation. There were other plus sized actors on the show, but they haven't been given any discussion.
Yes it’s humiliating to me when people talk about our bodies like we’re vying for the blue ribbon at the county fair
Any costumer who struggles to fit a very common size like Nicola is bad at their job amd should be fired.
9:19 I think a lot of the problem is those corsets are 1. not historically accurate - they are modern to create a vision the director or costumer has had, not functional items of clothing. 2. probably not properly fitted to the actresses like they would have been historically, they are likely too small and or overtightened, when they should just rest against you and add support where needed, being tailored specifically to you (not just a rough size etc).
That now infamous article ( I refuse to speak the reporters name ) I believe as do others was politically motivated in its abuse of Nicola.
🥺
Umm… Ever seen Sense and Sensibility? Because…Kate Winslet. She’s not plus size but she is what you’re calling midsize, or what I would call normal. Either way she’s not super skinny. And she had two men after her.
She was definitely a US size 2/4 in that film. Her Titanic costumes were about a size 4/6. She looked like a lot of portraits of women at that time. Most of them were thin. What we call “mid-size” (an 8/10 to about a 14) would have been considered chubby
Kate Winslet did have some anxiety about her weight for the film and thought she should lose weight. It was Emma Thompson who told her that she did not need to.
@@vbrown6445the producers were urging her to lose weight so Emma said she'd walk away from the project if they didn't stop.
'... what you're calling midsize, or what I would call normal.' Bravo!
Kate Winslet is the epitome of feminine beauty.
Bridgerton is as fatphobic as the rest of them. Nicola had to fight to show her body, whereas other actresses are just expected to show their body. In her character's romantic season, they had to pile on the sex and romance of several other couples to feed the public more "acceptable nudity" and slender romantic figures alongside Pen, whereas previously the primary couple were very clearly center stage amidst the other subplots and showed a lot more skin more often.
I also dislike how they chose Nicola to be kind of a "villain" throughout the entire series. S2 made the viewer dislike Penelope for betraying her friends. If they had maybe cast Nicola as Daphne instead it would have been interpreted very differently. Like why is the "plus sized character" not centre stage but also the villain? I didn't like it.
What I didn't like too is that, as far as I remember, she's the ONLY overweight young woman. There should have been multiple background actresses at the balls, etc. that normalized various body types. In Julia Quinn's book, the character lost weight before she was seen as a romantic lead. But Shonda specifically wanted to make it about friends not really seeing eachother and Penn coming into her own via confidence and embracing her own style. If that was the point, then the world of Bridgerton would show more body shape and size diversity with romantically successful plump girls and not just racial diversity. Pen appeared as the only young lady in her circle who was plump and therefore as some sort of oddity.
I remember at least 1 other, named and recurring, plus size débutantein the show. If it can make you feel better. She's happily engaged by the end of S3 if I remember correctly@@robtooley4002
@@ksto8884I wouldn't go as far as calling her a villain. More lost, misguided and she did make mistakes. At least she learnt from them.
The prejudice of the article is obvious in the use of 'mixed weight', as opposed to 'mixed physique'. There is a significant height differences between Coughlan and her co-star, she likely still weighs less than him or similar weight. But saying mixed weight sounds more appalling because of the idea that women cant take up more space than men, especially on the scale.
Mrs Patmore is neither bumbling, or dim witted, she is exceptional in her work, a loving mother figure to Daisy, and a wonderfully quick witted character. I have to go back and watch the rest of this video since I have been writing this.
I agree! when she named Mrs. Patmore as being one of those examples, I was like, "if anything, the poor woman is frazzled by circumstances outside her control"
it's been a minute since I watched Downton but I don't remember her negatively or as comic relief, really. just a sweet older lady who cared a lot
OOOOHHHHH I just remembered it's because she needed glasses, so she made mistakes
that wasn't really that funny but ok, I see maybe where "bumbling" could come in
Yeah, that felt off to me too!
Likewise. Also her inclusion of Mrs Fitz from Outlander is totally wrong, Mrs Fitz as a character is one of the most practical, efficient, skilled and hard-working manager of an entire castle-estate ever portrayed, as well as motherly, loving, smart and incisive - certainly not a 'bumbling servant'!
Mrs. Patmore is exceptionally brisk-witted and skilled at her job, but she is also uneducated, as were most people in the servant class at the time, who went to work very young and who were worked to the point of exhaustion every day of their lives. Who had time to read after working an 18 hour day? Who could read above a third-grade level? Who could afford books? Who had a moment's worth of time to converse with anyone about history, philosophy, ethics, etc. She had the makings of an excellent conscience and innate wisdom, but she was also prejudiced, xenophobic, and susceptible to con artists like her would-be husband who only wanted to exploit her for his own gain.
@@strawbsbloobs Mrs Patmore did provide some comic relief with her fussiness. But she was never portrayed as dim-witted, that's for sure
I was born in 1985, so my formative P&P was the 1995 BBC. Both actors playing Jane and Lizzy are way closer to my body type than typical Hollywood stars. They really matched the regency era beauty standards. It’s worth noting the beauty standards of that era were also quite limited. Sadly, we struggle to let people be their natural weights without shame across time periods. At least past eras allowed people to shape their bodies with stays, corsets, and cushions. I wish we had more of that than a deeply broken diet/exercise culture.
What’s crazy to me about the Bridgerton discourse is that all of my group of very straight sized, very young-millennial-grew-up-with-fatphobic-media women, all agreed that what we don’t enjoy about the season is: Colin. His character arc just isn’t convincing making him annoying, and arrogant, and that’s a turn off. Zero issue with Penelope/ Nicola - she looks amazing and is absolutely convincing as a romantic lead, I just wish they gave her a better love interest
Exactly!!
I am a large lady, and your explanation of the problems with this season's Bridgerton is right on the mark!
I really liked colin in the first season and they ruined him
Yes, Colin was so annoying and with no personality somehow, wish they'd given her a better man
The second I saw what they did to him in the trailer to try and make him "hot" to the masses, I IMMEDIATELY felt the urge to vomit. He could not have encapsulated "ick" more to me in that moment- and throughout the rest of the season.
Wait why did they describe her character as "raunchy" in Derry Girls?? She was the rule follower in Derry Girls...
It was literally the opposite of "raunchy" 😭 do they mean the fact she's gay? That word is certainly... a choice...
Size aside - they fall into 2 categories - "slim and thin" and curvy. Its always the curvy characters that get labelled plus sized, even if theyre really not. Basically period dramas just dont like female characters that have a good pair of "girls". I make historical costumes, am a curator of a small museums costume collection, and historical fiction never represents realities. That said, wearing corsets for long periods of time during the day, does change the way you eat - at least it did for me. WHen I wore them every week for events I did eat differently on those days and felt fuller for longer. One doctor even came out and blamed stretchy clothes as being a cause of weight gain, and in a way that can be true, as we dont notice that one pound youve put on. But - You covered the topic really well. Thankyou - u have a new subscriber!
You're so right about this. We have over a century of filmed images of people that were heavily edited, through casting in the first place, to remove bigger people from view, and deny any that were allowed to appear to have respect, love, or idealization. It is so very internalized. I, as a "stocky" woman, just naturally expect any heavy character to have to be cheated on, not chosen, laughed at, or otherwise relegated to "not first choice". It really is sad. When I compare it to how badly POC were treated by mainstream entertainment for so long, it really guts me to feel how badly an entire group of people in our world were made to feel by being eliminated, overlooked, or derided. We have so much to unlearn, to let people live with the rights that all of us deserve. It's shameful that so much still continues to treat people badly. Do we do it in the hope that they will "go away'? They are not going away. We share the planet with all of these people who have been cast into inferior roles in the world. How many gifts and talents have we wasted from those we reject? We all need to wake up. Everyone's gifts need to be celebrated and preserved for the benefit of all of us.
I wore corsets for ten hours a day when I worked the Dicken's Faire. I can tell you right now that if your corset is affecting you like that, then it was NOT properly fitted and was way too tight. Have your corset made for you and do not lace it that tightly! A properly fitted corset is incredibly comfy and gives great back support. It's no worse or better than a bra in terms of comfort and it was great for my back. If these costumers are lacing the actresses in that tightly, they should be schooled by actual historians and corset makers.
Right, I wore a lot of corsets in college theater. They were all custom fitted and the costumer was an expert. I usually found them pretty comfortable
Corsets/stats were the same as bras. You undoubtedly had people of the time who had properly fitted ones and just as many ones badly fitted.
How many people go and get their bras properly sized these days? I still remember going to Penneys and having a bra fitting in 1990. Catherine's brick and mortar stores still did them until COVID shut down all of them.
Thought the story between them was more truthful than the other ones in series 1 and 2. Liked the fact that they used someone like Nicola who may be plus sized but very beautiful to look at. Daphne’s and simon were good to look at but I thought the connection was very wooden, especially Simon. Anthony and Kate yet again typical good looking, but their relationship is only based on Anthony wanting to bed her at every opportunity, which can get really boring. Their is another film called Dumpling starring Jennifer Anniston who has a very plus sized daughter, who ends up with the good looking fella at the end, but it worked so well just like with Nicola.
U mean her begging him to kiss her or him throwing out a proposal after he finger bang her. Or is it that she discriedts him an his family all the time or why I can't even name wht Colin does or why pen even like him let alone love him..
Have to disagree. Ignoring the books (because I know the love between Penelope and Colin has a strong foundation there), I have no idea why Colin likes Penelope in the show. They clearly show why Penelope likes him, but it's not at all clear outside of him starting to fantasize about their kiss why his love is genuine.
On the contrary, both of the previous couples had parts of their personality that they clearly were connected with, Kate and Anthony especially. It's clear their attraction isn't just sexual but based on shared values: competitive nature, responsibility and love for family, etc I don't like Daphne and Simon though I could see the argument there being that the focus seems to be on Daphne's introduction to sex in a way that takes away from any shared bond. However I think it still shows how they share a playful nature in how they poke fun of the Ton and has moments where it's clear they admire each othwr for the actions they take.
I feel like that's the weakest part of season 3. I have no idea what Colin admires about Penelope. I know he's supposed to admire her writing, her kindness, her bravery in pursuing what she wants. But the presentation of their season makes that connection hard to see because he spends most of it either clueless about his feelings or actively being cruel to her because of that sense of betrayal. It's awful to watch
What Anthony had true love and admiration for Kate and he just didn’t want to bed her all the time.
Wow, that is a biased and very incorrect take.
Daphne and Simon had real chemistry, it was a great love story and it was believable. Same with Kate and Anthony. If you watch the show you see that they have interesting and plausible relationship dynamics and those seasons where still well made, in stark contrast to the third season.
They changed the show runner, the immersion breaks completely, the dresses and language are or period appropriate anymore, there is zero buildup to Pen and Colins relationship, the lines are cluncy, the camerawork is terrible and has contunuity errors and they fill the plot with irrelevant side storys.
Thats why season 3 was terrible, not bc of the actors and thats why everyone focuses on the negative.
@lydwiniaeathelyn5004 Colin loves and admires Penelope because she, along with her kindness, bravery and warmth, makes him feel more confident in himself and also helps him find himself. She suggests first that he should start travelling (which becomes something he adores immensely), and when he writes his journal, also encourages him to publish it. He felt insecure about his writing so she reassured him and that's what he also loved about her. Penelope was also one of the only, if not *the* only person who didn't make fun of him for travelling or got bored of him like his family did, but more than that, she was quite interested in his travels and they communicated a lot through letters between s1 and 2 when he was travelling. They often joked during balls which is another way they connected. Colin felt protective of her from the beginning (saving her from Cressida in the first episode) and he loved dancing with her.
Just as he said that his love for her wasn't a thunderbolt from the sky, there wasn't an actual moment where he went from not loving her to loving her. He had a soft spot for her since they met and it's just one of those love stories where there might not be a specific reason or thing that made them fall in love (very predominant in friends to lovers tropes). They were friends, very close, often communicating, liked each other's company, encouraged and supported each other to be better. Colin found Penelope to be quite smart and amusing, plus she always saw him on the inside and knew him better than anyone so of course they fell in love. The kiss was just something that made Colin realise Penelope could be seen in a romantic setting as well, not just platonic. I agree it could have been highlighted better, but there are a few times in the season where Colin says how Penelope is the only one who has truly seen him for who he is and also made hom feel like thatm
Can I say that one thing media did was make me feel ashamed for being in love. Romance felt cringe because we didn't looked like movie stars. Like if only buff manly guys could swipe you off your feet and beautiful small women could drive someone crazy. I had to get over it while planning my wedding
Yes, this is so real! It felt humiliating to have feelings for someone because I'm not the type of girl that can be picked up and swung around in an embrace. Like, how dare I even imagine being desired.
@@leah2303
who’s telling you to not dare even imagine being desired?
As an MT/opera veteran, I can only say I would have been so grateful for representation like Coughlan when I was surviving on 800 calories a day in order to get roles. That was untenable, and while I'm much healthier now, I have awful anxiety about my appearance on stage. I feel like nobody is judging my abilities, solely my looks.
Ah I'm so sorry! I did research for one of my other videos about opera singers in the Regency Era and how scrutinised their appearances were, and I thought ugh, some things never change!!
No sorry on what planet is Mrs Patmore (Downton Abbey) stupid?
She's a brilliant chef/cook, she's kind, emotionally intelligent, nurturing towards Daisy, Ivy, Mrs Hughes, Lady Sybill and Anna (amongst others), uses food the army pays for to feed wounded ex soldiers in a soup kitchen, is witty, sarcastic and she knows enough to figure out that a man isn't inclined towards women in 1912, when it wasn't legal and certainly wasn't talked about openly.
I really appreciated that Penelope’s shyness and lifelong overshadowing by her mother and sisters played a big role in her wall flower-ness, and her external appearance issue was her being made to wear unflattering dresses. I know her weight was kind of mentioned, but I felt like they downplayed it.
As for Colin not considering her because of her weight, yes that could be argued as a factor. But it’s just as likely that having grown up with her as his sister’s best friend he might’ve just subconsciously put her in a pseudo-sibling category. His character (in the show) is a dreamer who romanticizes his older brothers’ behavior of “gaining worldly knowledge” and wants his own adventure, but he seems to want the same storylines as everyone else…maybe slightly different. No one else he knows fell in love with and married their friend, how could he think that’s an option if it’s never been an example? His return from travels and pretending to be a playboy and then realizing he’s not into it seems to be when he starts to think outside the box.
I do wish that when he says “I would never marry Penelope” that we got some clarification on it. Was he feeling pressured to fit in with other guys? Was he thinking of her as a sister? Was he thinking that if he did try to court her, Eloise would pummel him!? 😂
You know, I love the casting of Claire Fraiser in Outlander, but in the books quite a lot is said about her fat arse. I have started imagining her a lot more like my own grandmother who was of the same era than the actress on TV. My grandmother who always wore skirts even in the 80s and 90s cause she was self conscious of her backside. Whereas to me she was just soft and lovely.
I can't handle how rudely that journalist wrote about Nicola Coughlan! Some people have no shame!
The corsets used for many productions are NOT designed for the outerwear of the time period depicted. Corsets and stays were designed not only for a siloette, but to take the weight of the fabrics and ne anle fot women ( and men) to MOVE snd be comfortable! That is one of the main reasons these actors cannot breathe!
One point that still should be made about All of these archetypes, especially the "boss babe" is that these are usually women who are "allowed" to not be conventionally thin and attractive anymore accoridng to the perspective of our current society. They are older, offen postmenopausal, mothers. They've already fulfilled their "purpose" biologically. And if you've already had kids, and you're too old to be an object of desire, who's going to care that you aren't thin? Most women gain weight after having kids anyway, much less 100 plus years ago when women often had more children.
You are blaming improper use of the tool ie corset. If you know anything about period clothing you should understand that corset makes the shape. The blame should fall on the costume designer and the studio for not hiring and using proper corset.
As stunning as she is, I’ve always felt so frustrated that Kieren Knightly was so prominently cast in period dramas and presented to be the ideal of beauty for the times.
I have always wondered this. Keira Knightley is beautiful and a talented actor, but her beauty is definitively "modern". It's weird why they would keep casting her as a Regency or Victorian heroine. I do see her fitting into the roaring 20s or the 1930s/ 1940 era - her casting in Atonement was chef's kiss - but not pre-1900s...
@@minervarose7664 personal I think she is very mediocre looking
True - she would be better cast as a working-class woman in a period drama, who would of course be more thin.
I really enjoyed your video. Overall, the media has always portrayed plus-size women as servants, older women, or comedic relief.
I wasn't attracted to Brigerton until I saw it was going to be Penelope's season and saw the trailer. I still feel they could have done so much better with her season, definitely felt that we needed more romance and happy moments. However, her casting and representation has been key to make feel more women as seen. She is stunning, and I can't even take seriously anyone who says she isn't.
Penelope is hot, not sure who was arguing against that
They "invent" problems to complain about. At the end of the day it's all publicity for the series.
A UK hack wrote an appalling article saying that because of Nicolas weight she should not have been cast as a leading lady!
Listening to you, I sincerely thank my mother for instilling in me from a young age that healthy is more important than thin and that love is conditional on personality, not appearance.
With regard to corsets (and sorry if someone else mentioned this, I don’t want to scroll through all the comments), historical stays and corsets were worn as foundation garments. Some people did tight lace, but that was rare, and even at the time was thought to be a weird thing to do. Modern corsetry has been used differently, but if a corset is well made and fit to the person wearing it, it can be worn for prolonged periods of time very comfortably. Historical shows/movies need to do more research honestly IMHO.
In addition, just like you might have a strapless bra for an evening dress today, most people laced tighter for special events than they did for everyday. They also had different corsets and stays for pregnancy and nursing.
I love how they also didn’t make the entire season about her weight. I’ve found a lot of romances where the woman is plus size, but her only personality trait is “fat” and the conflict revolves heavily around it. It’s nice just to see Penelope having problems not related to her size
What annoys me about the corset thing is that historically that was the bra of those times and yes any woman would wear them as well. No one was trying to suffocate in them like in the movies unless they really wanted to.
May I add: women had hairy legs up to the 20th century, where razor companies wanted to expand the market by telling women they need to shave their legs. I never see hairy woman legs in any kind of period drama or dystopian story and it's frustrating me, because stupid people think shaved legs are always the default.
Hair removal has been a thing since ancient Egypt actually, humans have removed body hair for a long time. The Romans had similar opinions on body hair as we do today.
@@EvaeAwake I am pretty sure there was a time, where people were not obsessed with hair removal on the legs. I mean there was also a time, where people did not bathe because of some bullshit believe.
@@EvaeAwake true, but kind of misleading in context. There have been points in history across various cultures where hair removal was popular, but for most of western history, including the regency period, it simply wasn't a thing. And the OP is correct that, when it did become popular in western cultures, it was largely due to advertising in an effort to manufacture demand for razors.
@@EvaeAwake Hair removal was 'a thing' for SOME cultures. In most of Western/English cultures, only whores in brothels shaved. That was part of the attraction. The characters being discussed here would have had unshaved legs and armpits.
This is literally not true. Removing hair has a very long history. Sugar waxing, threading, using pumice stones, etc.
"Fuller figured" is a term I really don't mind. You don't have to be out of shape to be considered full figured.
Ok so I NEVER leave comments on youtube, but Kayla, damn girl! I couldn't have said it better myself. It's like you plucked numerous thoughts and feelings straight from my brain and articulated them so beautifully and succinctly that I just had to give you major applause for this video essay. Seeing Penelope on screen for S3 was everything to me and unraveled so much inner damage about my body and my worth. I knew it was gonna be a groundbreaking moment, but didn't realize just how much until I watched the season and also this video. So thank you, this was awesome! Keep it up!
Thank you so much, that's so sweet it's made me tear up ❤️ I knew I couldn't be the only one who has probably internalised a lot from period dramas and romances! Like you, it had such an effect on me to see Nicola as Penelope! I hope this opens the door for so many more plus sized actresses 😊
@@regencyrumours 🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰
While you made some good points, you also missed, and misinterpreted, a lot of things. Mrs. Patmore in Downton was not bumbling nor stupid. She was a very competent woman who ended up buying a house and starting a business. The head house keeper, Mrs. Hughes, was not thin either. Minnie, in The Help, was not bumbling or stupid either. She was fierce in the face of domestic violence and racism. Louise Jefferson (Isabelle Sanford) from the sitcom was a plus sized woman as well - not bumbling nor silly. There are lots and lots of examples of larger sized women in good, solid roles.
Wow, I guess Zoe Strimpel has still not outgrown her middleschool bullying ways. Nicola Coughlin is gorgeous, it's really not hard to imagine Colin falling for her Penelope and finding her extremely attractive.
On the subject of corsets, I believe most women now are also just simply not used to having anything cinching them in, so it feels restricting. I’m Japanese, so of course although women and men throughout Japanese history all wore kimonos with obi and did everything in them, when I wear a formal kimono, it feels extremely restricting compared to my usual attire of tshirt and jeans, just like a formal suit would also, and I imagine a corset would as well.
I love her "perfect breast community" response, we need more women who can stand up against bias in a funny and light manner
People like to point out that plus size people aren’t historically accurate, but people getting fingered in the back of a carriage to a violin cover of a Pitbull song is also historically inaccurate, so what does it even matter?
"plus size people aren’t historically accurate"???
Why should they not be? Has nobody ever seen the paintings of Rubens?
But even in other periods: Those who had the money to afford plenty of food could of course get plus size. Queen Victoria, anybody?
There’s always been plus sized people throughout history!
@@johannageisel5390What were Victoria’s measurements?
@rosyface It's amazing how people didn't understand what you wrote, isn't it? You make a sound point. It may be a fun watch, but Bridgerton is definitely period inspired rather than accurate.
@@johannageisel5390painters like rubens painted women as they liked not 5he way they were.
NO! Hattie McDaniel is not BUMBLING servant but an in-charge authoritarian character who had her own agency. She is the audience stand-in showing outrage when Scarlett wants her hand "warmed up" by her sister's fiance's trouser pocket. She deserved her Academy Award and is not representative of a bumbling servant or slave. Give credit where credit is due.
There is a great line in Mulan (1998), where the matchmaker remarks "too skinny, not right for bearing sons." In an earlier scene a sash was tied around her waist similar to a corset. In every period drama, presumably the reason most men of the time married in order to have children. So representing them with birthing hips makes more sense to me.
It makes me laugh that so many people are saying Nicola Coughlan should be the romantic lead in a regency drama as she isn't thin. When people say that they are imposing late 20th century beauty standards on a different time period. Being slightly larger was desirable then as it showed that you had money and didn't have to work.
Exactly.
Imagine how queer kids felt for most of media existence not seeing people or relationships that represent us. It fuels societal ideas that we are abnormal and that our relationships are odd or not traditionally loving. While most people have moved away from that thinking, there is still is a dearth of movies and shows that tell our stories. Being fat and gay myself, and being attracted to masculine women, I have next to nothing to watch.
I myself have PLENTY to watch it’s got nothing to do with whether I’m fat:(I’m just about convinced that my legs and arms by now are about equally small):or gay or whatever or not
This is my first time watching your channel & I really like your content so far! Always happy to support a fellow historian.
I wasn't going to comment, or at least wait until I watched the entire video, but that quote at about 24:00 - OMG, who is this person to say who is attractive, 1) in another time period, and 2) to another human being?!
I'm sure you know the frustration of explaining to people that things we believe today were not always true, and even though our entertainment tries to recreate past eras, it's ALWAYS anachronistic in some respect or another. I was listening to your discourse on corsetry, and my immediate thought was, but we don't grow up using corsets as they did, and for the purposes they did - and this is extremely important. When your body is trained, basically from cradle to grave, to wear that device instead of a brassiere, your experience wearing it is going to be completely different than that of a 20th/21st century person whose experience with corsetry is sporadic & perhaps inaccurately recreated.
Also, prior to the widespread use of photography & mass media that is a hallmark of our society, people didn't obsess about these external factors regarding themselves as much as we do today. The idea that many well-known "femme fatales" were perhaps more voluptuous than we would consider mainstream "sexy" today may blow some minds but it's true. They also may not have conformed to any current Western standard of physical beauty. It's said that we might consider Cleopatra plain today, because descriptions of her beauty gave much weight to her intellect: she charmed men with her wit, and that made her hot.
However, I'm going to undo all the historical discourse in one thought: these historical period TV shows are meant to entertain the modern audience, so in that respect, *should* they be, 1) fair representations of the past, or 2) fantastic representations of the past that appeal to the modern taste?
Of course, historians have our choice, but we may be in a minority; would not be the first time.
Great content & very thought provoking!
Excellent video! US women have long been held to impossible physical standards and it’s refreshing to hear open conversations about the topic. Bravo! ❤
In Hidden Figures there is a great example of a plus size romance, very believable and nobody was outraged 😊. I also loved a sexy dance done by “Mama” played by Queen Latifah. Also a quirky German film “Sugarbaby” comes to my mind (although that is not at all historical film).
I just watched Hidden Figures yesterday! Love Octavia Spencer ❤️
As someone who has bought corsets from a professional shop (Ties That Bind), I can tell you that those actresses were not govern the correct corset for their size/body type. Corsets aren't supposed to be super tight. They have ties akin to thin shoelaces, what happens when you pull them too hard? They snap. Corsets are supposed to improve posture and support your chest. They took the place of bras. When you have the right one, it is comfortable.
Other RUclipsrs have covered how the Bridgerton ones were not proper for the actresses. I can just confirm that they aren't meant to feel like that. They're are women who go to conventions and Renaissance Faires and wander around in them all day without issue. The staff on those shows are more interested in the appearance for the camera than the well- being of the staff. The actresses deserve better.
Edit: Notice how Hollywood is always "starting to improve" but never actually gets there?
Bridgeton is badly acted mills and boon and the way they treated the queen making her stupid. Also the tightening of a corsets was not done because who is stupid enough to do that’s for a small waist that no one would even know about under these dresses
I don't know if it's up your alley, but my problem with historical dramas is, everything looks brand new. The houses were just built. No paint is peeling, no wallpaper faded. Wood furniture isn't chipped, upholstery isn't worn or repaired. All the characters are perfectly turned out in pristine costumes. Their hair was just styled professionally. Their shoes are shined. The servants wear spotless uniforms. Children never have grass-stained knees, mended pinafores or patched breeches. It really takes me out of the fantasy that I'm there. Maybe most people want a perfect historical world. But just as everyone is not thin or beautiful, neither is everyone going to be as tidy as everyone else, their clothing isn't always new or in as good taste, their hair is going to need combed or washed, their mustaches trimmed. White gloves will be a little grimy after an evening of handshakes and clutching bannisters that should need a touch of varnish after years of being clutched. I'd like to see those everyday things as well as fabulous gowns and glittering ballrooms.
Also, where are the pregnant women? They could not all have been in confinement for 9 months.
its perfect becaus3 they are rich and have servents 5o maintain things
Didn't they usually went into confinement when they started to show? After that they'd only socialize with family.
Corsets were a support in the past, not a torture instrument. Watch Abby Cox who is a fashion historian
Bridgerton was in the early 19th century, were their plus-sized people in the 19th century? I seem to recall some paintings from the 19th century with plus sized people. Benjamin Franklin was plus sized, so was Henry Knox.
Thank you so much for this video and your comments!! Indeed, they are gaslighting us. I for one think Nicola Coughlan is absolutely beautiful! My lovely wife is also plus-sized and petite like Nicola. I want more representation like this! More plus-sized lead roles for women, please... I'm thin and my wife is plus-sized, and I love her exactly as she is. Why can't society understand that thin people can be fully attracted to plus-sized people? I also think we need to change how we see the word "fat" -- and to stop using it as a negative or a slur. In my opinion, every size can be beautiful ❤️
I was born in 1953. Believe me there were lots of plus sized women. Three of my aunts were plus sized. They were all married, two of them to slim men. There were people of all sizes and shapes.
Women often put on weight after marriage but they also married young didn't tend to have the weight issues that we have today.
One of my favorite portrayals of a woman is from Once Upon A Time. Belle was not traditionally thin. She had nice chubby cheeks and was a mid-sized woman. And I was delighted to see someone so beautiful portraying my favorite Disney Princess! I felt it was about time.
As for the 1950's, et al, my family on both sides had plus-sized women all the way back and into the Great Depression. Very few were "skinny", Whenever, growing up, I lamented how heavy I was or looked, my mother would say "but you come from two lines of big women. You should be proud to be yourself." I would take heart every time, but somewhere deep I would still wish I had missed out on the family genes. It was in later years, once I'd gone into the military, that I became proud of myself for my accomplishments and actually stopped seeing myself as "heavy versus thin". In fact, I have a problem now based on this self-confidence. I am 100 pounds over the recommended body weight of my height group (5'2"). And I "forget" I'm unhealthily heavy. I've become so comfortable in my own skin, that when I see a full length mirror it surprises me that it's me in there, because I still picture myself with my military body. So, now I have to force myself to eat and exercise in a healthy manner, as I have serious health problems due to the weight. The rest of my family got those problems quicker, because I had gotten healthier in the military. But, at my now advanced age, I let myself slide.
I don't think of plus sized or mid sized or slim sized(?) as disgusting or ugly or whatever. I look, usually, for the personality just because that's the way I was raised. However, in a character I appreciate when the people creating the fantasy remember to give the non traditional-slim people a chance to shine in the lead. People who think an actress or actor who cannot be the main character because of their looks? It's not looks, it's the ay thy can act the part, silly. how they can capture the audience.
Thank you for this episode. I really appreciated it.
By the way, you may find this extremely amusing (like I do now) or offensive (like I did then). When I was in the military, I was a DD sized breast. Thus, my uniforms didn't look slimming in the least, let's say. I had a Chief (we were both enlisted but she was in charge of my unit,) whom told me to my face "you're going to go in the fat program with me and we can work out together." She sounded so pleased. I was incensed and practically growled at her, "what do you mean fat program? My Body Weight Index is 27. To qualify for fat program, it has to be 30 or above." She did a double-take, doubted me, but went and checked my records for my fitness stats. And she was stunned. I was 27 BMI. It was the breasts that made me look heavier due to the way my clothes fit. And she wasn't the only one in charge of me that thought so. Due to back issues, I had a breast reduction (down to C), and now my body shape is shown by my clothes. Now, I would certainly be in the program the military ran for getting healthier (exercise, portion control, and other things). Nowadays I find it humorous I had this 'argument' with my Chief. I probably would feel different if I had been proven wrong. But to see her almost arrogance self-assurance drop away after she assumed something about me, instead of checking, is amusing.
Would you consider Jennifer Ehle from the 1995 BBC Pride and Prejudice to be mid- sized? I could absolutely be wrong, but that had been my impression, and she's obviously our heroine, she's our Lizzy!
That Strimpel person failed to read the books. Colin's attraction to Penelope is related to their growing relationship.
I’m feeling like no one ever read the original book before it was redone as the Bridgerton series. Julia Quinn’s original story showcases Penelope as a heavy more voluptuous woman in ugly dresses. This makes the casting of Nicola an amazing choice since she is a very talented actress and representative of the source material. Could the producers selected someone thinner sure they could have. So in that way maybe they are trying to be more inclusive in their representation of romantic relationships. The unfortunate thing is now all the old Kindle versions of the book have been completely redone for the Bridgerton story line making it hard to look back on the original story. Also compared with some of the other casting this choice feels relatively safe and should be credited to Julia’s writing.
I grew up in L.A. in the 80's (Gen X 1968 baby here). And being just 10lb "overweight" from my average healthy weight, I was considered "fat" - and I'm tall, I was 5'8" when I was 13 and topped out at 6' by 18. So ten extra pounds on a 6' average frame is not that much, but enough that I was considered less than optimal in many guys' eyes. So many of my peers in middle school and high school had friends or family that worked in "The Biz" (TV & movies) where you had to be 10 lbs UNDERWEIGHT to be considered acceptable body wise. It's insidious. I was a healthy weight range and still thought of myself as fat, and men also judged me by unrealistic standards, since I lived in The Valley and the porn industry was based out of there and a lot of my competition for dating in the geographic region were girls who worked in porn and had the prefect little stick bodies with the big boob jobs.
I also grew up in SoCal and I’m beginning to realize how much that affected me.
Corsetry should not hurt. Corsets should support. Sadly few directors, writers, or filmmakers study fashion history.
I agree with you but I would add that not only do we blame ourselves for "Mr. Darcy" not coming along, we also blame others when they don't meet those standards. It's this impossible goal that we set. The truth of the matter is, people are more attracted to confidence, humor, happiness, etc. We owe it to ourselves to be happy and healthy, not fit into some physical mold.
Who the hell is putting the Bridgerton girls in corsets? Its regency. They didn't wear corsets.
Actually I’m quite sure they did. Perhaps they weren’t as severe and the gowns didn’t cling to them like other eras, but they were still worn. The costumes in Bridgerton are definitely not accurate but they sure are fun.
@@erinelizabethmsw5137 stays were usually worn, a kind of shorter corset
They wore what is called a corded corsets. Corded corsets are soft and not hard boned. They cannot be pulled to change your shape. They were they to basically there to support the bust line. Corded corset were a change from stays.
@@erinelizabethmsw5137 They wore what is called a corded corsets. Corded corsets are soft and not hard boned. They cannot be pulled to change your shape. They were they to basically there to support the bust line. Corded corset were a change from stays.
@@niave113 In Regency stays morphed into the corded corsets. A soft, non figure changing corset. They most supported the bust line and provided 'modesty' under the light muslin dresses popular at the time.
It`s interesting to me, as I am part of the Bridgerton fandom, how much vitriol Colin and Penelope got from the very first season, citing `no chemistry` and `no spark` between them. I am of the opinion that, due to the 8 episode format Bridgerton sports, basically all romances within the show, stay somewhat unexplored. However, with Colin and Penelope, people are still adamant about there being no love between them, simply because their tension is not based on fighting or constant back and forth.
That`s so weird to me as someone who also grew up reading and watching period dramas. I even have a degree in British Literature. In reality, with their season, I`ve instead come to the realization of how much friends to lovers is a much more realistic and affable trope, rather than rivals to lovers or arranged marriage. I was never before a huge fan, mind you. It`s also sad to me that, when the season dropped, there were so many tweets about `waiting until Season 4 because that`s when we`ll get attractive leads again`. That is so weird to me.
I loved Season 3 for many reasons and I have some criticisms, but this was such a refreshing step to take and hopefully we get to see plus size leads not be treated in accordance with their weight, but rather as interesting characters on their own.
is it like a very commonly occurring thing to accuse friends to lovers of
“no spark/no chemistry”?
@noorbohamad5796 In some cases yes, as the conflict between the characters doesn’t happen in accordance with their personalities but rather outside sources. Which is then mistaken for lack of tension. It’s just a different type of romance that’s, when done right, better than majority enemies to lovers stories, in my opinion.
I love the show "Drop Dead Diva", the lead character of which is just gorgeous. It doesn't leave any doubt that she is hot and can be loved. I also find Nicola Coughlan very attractive and disagree with journalist Zoe . I've seen many outright beautiful plus-size women in my life, never thought that only a slim woman can be a beauty.
Love me some Drop Dead Diva!
It makes me so incredibly sad to realise how deeply I internalised the belief that I could not be beautiful if I wasn’t thin. Full stop. I don’t know when it started, and it wasn’t even my parents telling me to lose weight. It was just the effect of growing up in Southern California and being surrounded by media.
Also Connie in 'Mona Lisa smile'. Does that movie qualify as period drama? I guess the archetype for her is the 'fat friend'.
Thank you, all. This is an example of kindness in the world. Take care.
To me as a older heterosexual women who was always thin, I think she is hot, my god she voluptuous. A real women. I always felt scrawny compared to women with some weight to them.
Applause for this whole video! Can we mention the 'thin actress has to gain weight so she's "not attractive" but she's actually still normal size' bit of the 90's? Muriel's Wedding, Bridget Jones' Diary, America's Sweethearts (though that was a fat suit)...apparently we were supposed to think that they were unattractive and they were normal sized. Made anyone who wasn't tiny wee feel like a flippin' elephant.
Oh I forgot about Bridget Jones 🙈
Keira is tall so I think she meant height. But I can understand how it can affect a normal or plus sized person.
I went through exactly what you described in my teenage years. I've learnt about Kibbe body types in recently and it cured my self image. But that's not what I came to say.
These people look through the lense of modern eye and judge the past. It used to be: Short and skinny = malnourished and poor. Tall and fuller = healthy, well off and beautiful. So when we read about how Jane Bennett is the most beautiful girl she was not at all size 0. When we read about tiny Jane Eyre (who would be praised today for keeping her frame so healthy) was an example of an unattractive, malnourished, traumatised woman that was internally strong and found love against the odds.
I've been watching the original Star Trek recently (1960's) and I am amazed by inclusion of different body types. Much more varied than today. Today it's: we've got conventionally slim and attractive cast and maybe one fatty for inclusion. As much as I can't recall fat women in ST there were all body types (short, fuller figure, muscular, tall, slender, etc.) and they were all made to look attractive. Those Kibbe types I mentioned, they were all included. And that system is based on bone structure, muscle, flesh and proportion. In this system you find out every type is beautiful and has its advantages and disadvantages. What's more there's only so much you can do, but you can't starve yourself into different type, you can be a slim, fat or fitter version of a type, but your bone structure doesn't change, you can't easily shrink or grow, can't change the size of your head, etc.
Is Bridgerton really a period drama? Perhaps a re-imagined, alternate universe sort of way. It's like a portrayal of a period with the lens and sensibilities of this period rather than that one.
I don't see Bridgerton as a straight up period drama, more of a fantastical representation of a time in history!
This is such a fabulous video and I love your channel. The way you speak is so eloquent and it’s always enjoyable to hear your analyses!
Thank you so much for watching!